Latest / Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell / Suzanne Blaising | Part 2: What Does a Psychedelic Experience Actually Feel Like?
Transcript
- speaker-0: I think after the first at I had such a difficult time talking about her death and the loss because for me there were no words. Like despair, like no, sad, no, like there was nothing in the English language that touched it. Yeah. And so I think that after that psilocybin journey, I was able to really talk. Yeah. I was able to metabolize it enough that I could talk, which is really helpful for me. speaker-1: Welcome, I'm Jen McDowell, and you're listening to Through the Shit, a podcast for anyone going through the shit and the people who love them. And every episode we'll hear a new story of loss, hope, and resilience, and how going through the shit led to something greater. So if you're in the shit now and feeling lost or alone, disconnected from your badass self, or in need of an ember of hope to keep putting one foot in front of the other, you're in the right place. So settle in, prepare to be moved and inspired, and welcome. To the shit. Welcome everyone. You're listening to Through the Shit. I'm your host, Jen McDowell. Today's episode is part two in a two-part conversation with Dr. Suzanne Blazing, a psychotherapist specializing in psychedelic assisted therapy. In episode one, Suzanne and I talked about what psychedelic assisted therapy actually is, who it can help, why preparation matters, and why the medicine itself is only one piece of the process. But there's a question we haven't really answered yet. What actually happens when you take the medicine? Contrary to popular belief, it's not always a beautiful, blissed-out experience where you emerge three hours later with all the answers. Sometimes it can be emotional, sometimes it can be uncomfortable, and sometimes it can be downright terrifying. In this episode, Suzanne gets personal about her own experiences with psilocybin while grieving the death of her daughter. We talk about what it means when difficult things surface. Why a challenging experience isn't necessarily a bad one and what can happen when you stop running from something you've spent years trying to avoid. Most importantly, we also talk about why having the right person beside you through the experience matters so damn much. So let's get into it. We've talked a little bit about the prep. We've talked about the integration a little bit. There may be more to explore there, but let's talk about the medication session. ⁓ how does that typically Run. And can you tell us a little bit about the experience? Like, what does the experience feel like for the person who's on the journey? speaker-0: The medicine sessions are run, you know, we're in a clinical setting, so everything's really based on the you know the research and how to to run a ⁓ productive and ⁓ session. So you have the eye masks on, ⁓ which help for people to go ⁓ have an inner journey. We have music that is ⁓ specifically designed to help. with the journey and to go to maybe deeper places and to be you know, so the music is is chosen for usually for the intention and what the person needs. ⁓ and so somebody will ingest we'll talk about psilocybin, ⁓ ingest psilocybin. We usually use it with ⁓ like a orange juice or lemon juice, so it helps to break it down. And then ⁓ twenty to maybe forty minutes later they start to have the effect. and the, you know, people's journeys are very different. ⁓ I can speak to my journey. I my first psilocybin journey I took one year after the death of my daughter. She died ⁓ in twenty twenty. So this was in twenty twenty one. And ⁓ I my intention was for healing. And I cried the entire time. I went through a whole box of Kleenex. And after that psilocybin journey, the what came to me was just one message. And that message was alcohol no longer serves you. And that was such an important message for me. Prior to that, like in my heart I would say I don't have a problem. Yeah, right. But in retrospect, I it was using alcohol as a way of not dealing with her loss, of with that grief, of that profound sadness that I felt. And so it that was such a eye opener to me. It's that all that grief is there. You know, there was a part of me that was so afraid of getting in touch with it. Because I felt like if I do, it's gonna I'm gonna drown. There's no way I can survive that. And prior to that, I'd be like, ⁓ I'm not gonna drink, and then I'll not drink for a week. And so I thought, like, I don't have a problem. You know. ⁓ but after that psilocybin journey, like I couldn't even really look at alcohol. Like smelling it made me sick. Like it was like such an important, it was in my bones in a different way. Yeah. ⁓ and so that was the first step. And then I did another psilocybin journey. I want to say maybe three months later. And in that journey, I it was dark. I cried and cried and cried. And I was like, why why don't people do this? And I'm the I'm like supervising, I'm doing like leading these, but It was really difficult, very difficult. And and then it my intention was the same for healing. And but what came to me was this figure and it was dancing, it was a dark figure. And it said, Dance with me. And what I learned was that I had to let grief in my life. I had to dance with it. I had to have a relationship with it. I couldn't have it something that, you know. on a Sunday I was gonna do this, cry, and it had to be part of my life and it had to be something that ⁓ I learned from and that ⁓ was something to cherish and have a relationship with. And so that for me was really profound and it changed my relationship to grief. And it was something that ⁓ changed my life. So from my own experience with psilocybin, ⁓ it has not been easy and it has been so profound. speaker-1: Mm. Yeah, I had I had goosebumps as you were telling ⁓ telling more about your experiences, and thank you for being so open with that. ⁓ there's so much there to unpack. I mean I I think first is this idea of it like hits you over the head almost. It just and it's hard to describe in in words that sort of convey the felt sense of. going from this idea of knowing to embodying and really truly understanding. you also said this idea of like drowning in your emotions. And I think that's kind of pointing to what you had talked about with the the benefit of these medications is that kind of lowers your defensive defenses enough so that you can look at it and take it out and explore it and feel it and dance with the dark figure without being afraid of it in the way that maybe were in your conscious mind. And I think the last piece that just kind of stood out to me is this idea of learning to cherish it because it is part of who you are and it's not something to be sh ashamed of. It's not to be afraid of. ⁓ and and to sort of like to use the word integrate again to to integrate that experience and to understand it and ⁓ and even appreciate it maybe in some way. speaker-0: Yeah. I think after the first at I had such a difficult time talking about ⁓ her death and the loss because for me there were no words. Like despair, like no, sad, no, like there was nothing in the English language that touched it. Yeah. And so I think that after that psilocybin journey, I was able to really talk. Yeah. I was able to metabolize it enough that I could talk, which is really helpful for me. speaker-1: Yeah. Say saying the thing out out loud, right? Rather than 'cause you know, I've found in my own experiences when I can say it out loud, it lifts the burden of it. You know, because when it's inside and it's eating me up and I can't say anything a lot about it because there's shame or there's a narrative or whatever. ⁓ saying it out loud is is a degree of release. Mm. Okay. So you mentioned that everybody's experience is is different. ⁓ what are some of the concerns that people have coming in to a session? speaker-0: ⁓ that they're gonna, you know, lose their mind or that something's too difficult that's gonna come up and you know. speaker-1: And how do you allay their fears? How do you how do you work with them through that experience? speaker-0: ⁓ well, you know, with these psychedelics, there is a beginning and there is a middle and there's an end and it will end. And I've not worked with anybody who has lost their mind or yeah. I'm not saying it I there's been very difficult and that that doesn't mean that it's negative. I worked with somebody who ⁓ well this was actually with ketamine and she was having such a difficult time and she wanted it to stop. And I was just just gently saying, just remain curious. You know, what's showing up. And she was able to stay with it. And then afterwards to talk about how she had always run from her emo when something got too much, it was like she all she wanted to do was stop it. To run from it, to have a drink, to have a pill, to have like and it was the first experience that she had that she actually sat with it. And then that was so helpful for her to learn how to resource herself that she can actually handle her emotions. Yeah. Like maybe there's something that you need to listen to and that it's okay. You got this. And so it's not that, you know, a difficult journey is. quote unquote bad, it can be so helpful. I worked with somebody who was his son died and he he had been sober for five years prior to his son dying and he said that he went from the funeral to the liquor store and for three years was drunk for three years like and so he came in and part of you know, what he wanted to work on was he wanted to die. That's the his I d his thing was I'm gonna drink myself to death, whether it's conscious, but he came in stating he w he didn't want to be here. Wow. ⁓ and so he did this ketamine journey and he got so frightened. It was so scary and he had done an oral dose. So once you do an oral like that, you're in for the ride. Like, and I know it and that's what I think is can be so helpful. ⁓ like how to support people through a difficult journey. And so, you know, I was holding his hand, it was like it's gonna end, it's okay. And what came out of it for him was he said, I don't wanna die. I thought I was gonna die. It was so horrible for him. He thought he was gonna die. And he said, ⁓ what I realized is actually I I wanna get better. I don't wanna die. It's the first time embodied that he felt like, I actually want to live. I actually Yeah faced with it, that's not what I want. Very much to live. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I I I think of those moments, you know, I've heard people who have, you know, try you know, ⁓ tried to end their lives by, you know, jumping off of a jumping off of something and and they live and they say, you know, the moment that they leave the platform they realize I I don't want to die. And so I think very much of that same type of experience. It's this known, embodied, felt. ⁓ my gosh, I don't want to die and I need to quit doing what I've been doing because I'm going to die if I don't. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, and then he went into rehab and it was ⁓ beautiful yeah, he's doing see sober and yeah. So we don't shy away from the the bad negative experiences. speaker-1: Yeah, because it sounds like there is a purpose behind the difficult journey. ⁓ so w what makes it so difficult? I mean, how do you see that come up for patients? speaker-0: ⁓ I think it for the most part, like people get what they need. And some people need that and some people don't. Some people have the most beautiful spiritual experience. So I and for myself it's not about judging whatever. It's just entrusting that whatever needs to happen is gonna happen. For the most part. Everybody's journey is different and what everybody needs is different. speaker-1: And and they recall a difficult memory. I mean, w what what makes it so difficult? speaker-0: ⁓ some people and some people it's very because trauma gets stored in your body and psilocybin can be a very somatic experience. So some people that difficulty can be ⁓ wherever they have the trauma. It's somebody who was raped and they had a lot of pain in their pelvic area and like and was re experiencing what had happened. ⁓ so that was a very difficult somatic. So, you know, it can be difficult mentally, it can be difficult physically, but ⁓ I'm always saying like just allow it to process, let it, let it work through, whatever it needs to work through. speaker-1: Yeah. You know, it it seems ⁓ almost a little outlandish, maybe is the word that I would use that, you know, people willingly go into this knowing that they might have a difficult experience. And my sense is that there's been some sort of like cost benefit analysis ⁓ and the decision has been made that irrespective of what happens, the the c the the benefits outweigh the costs. I mean, it is it is it that straightforward or, you know, 'cause that sounds scary as shit, you know, going in and to relive that. ⁓ what makes people take the leap? speaker-0: ⁓ I think it's you know, a lot of people when they come to the to psychedelics, they've tried. You know. It's, you know, it's working with somebody who couldn't feel love. You know, he's tried all sorts of different therapies that needed to get in touch with love. ⁓ and this was his way. And what came up was really an abusive father. And so it there's all sorts of different things, but I think that people come because they've tried all sorts of other ways and they want relief. They want to get to what is the at the root and and to process that and to move on. And so, you know, most of the people that I see are people that have worked on themselves. done a lot of work and are ready to try something different to get to where they want to go. speaker-1: Yeah. And and you mentioned it just in passing, but I think that's the other thing that's probably worth calling out here is that the the transformation can happen quickly. You talked about as quickly as one session, maybe even three. and for someone who has been working on themselves for years and carrying this trauma, carrying the stuckness, carrying the whatever, trying other things, ⁓ to have that sort of rapid relief. I imagine sounds really appealing. So Suzanne, as we start to sort of wind things down, maybe someone who's been listening or watching the video ⁓ is curious about what psychedelics or ketamine might be able to do for them. So what would you tell them? speaker-0: ⁓ I would tell them to ⁓ do some research and ⁓ make sure that you're working with somebody who's trained in psychedelic therapy, who has ⁓ done a lot of work around it, ⁓ and to make sure that they're licensed. I think speaker-1: Okay. And and how do people find that? Like do is there you're certified through sil with psilocybin? Is there an association that people can go to? We can put that kind of information in the show notes for people. How do they find the people who are legit? speaker-0: Yeah. So ⁓ in Colorado, the Natural Medicine Act there are facilitators that are certified, that are licensed. And so that would be a good place to start. speaker-1: Okay. And so you ta you mentioned earlier that ketamine can be sort of it's a it's a good introduction. And so since ketamine is legal, though off label, how do people find someone using ketamine in their practice? speaker-0: Yeah, I think ⁓ there are some organizations ⁓ that they have a listing of people who have gone through their training. ⁓ but I would suggest that ⁓ they find somebody who will do the prep and the integration as well. There's a lot of ketamine clinics where you just go in and it's just like an IV stations where they get ketamine and that can be really disruptive. If you're not working with the therapist, doing proper prep and doing graation as well. So I would really encourage people to ⁓ you know, ri take this ketamine as psocium with respect and to really be thoughtful about making sure that you're with somebody, working with somebody that is thoroughly trained and can really help to support you and to hold the space for you. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So find find the right partner to do this work with you because it is something that should be treated with reverence and respect. ⁓ not only because of its power, but for the power that that can be had. Okay. ⁓ Suzanne, ⁓ anything closing that you feel like is unsaid at this point? speaker-0: Yeah. No. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I've enjoyed being here with you today. Listeners, thanks so much for listening and we'll see ya on the flip side. That's it for this episode of Through the Shit. Thanks for listening. If you liked this podcast, like, share, and subscribe, and maybe send it to someone who needs a boost because they're going through the shit. While you're at it, tell them how important they are to you. If you have a story of shit to share or you're in the shit now, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at through the shitpodcast at gmail.com or go to our website at through the shit.com. I'll see you on the flip side.