Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / How To Be A Grey Rock When Divorcing A Narcissist with Mia Madafferi

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How To Be A Grey Rock When Divorcing A Narcissist with Mia Madafferi · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

0:07
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, the podcast.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartner, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: In soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the World Tree people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: On today's episode of the podcast, I am welcoming Mia Matiferi of Grey Rock Consulting.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Mia is a mother, a high conflict negotiation coach, and seasoned lawyer with a career spanning over 18 years, and she is the founder of Grey Rock Consulting, where she helps clients who are trying to communicate or negotiate with high conflict or narcissistic personalities.
1:32
SPEAKER_01: Having experienced controlling narcissistic and high conflict personalities both in her professional and personal life and seeing that the experiences weren't getting any easier, Mia deep dived into educating herself about these personalities and realised that although there was an abundance of knowledge and resources on how to communicate with these individuals, putting the tools into practice was an incredibly daunting task.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: Being that Grey Rock is just not as easy as it sounds and really difficult to do alone.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: And so she formed Grey Rock Consulting.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Mia brings a unique perspective with her legal expertise, her personal insights, and her extensive work experience in the how-to aspect of communicating, negotiating with these personalities, separating, divorcing them, and parenting with them afterwards.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll enjoy this conversation with Mia.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Hi Mia, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today.
2:31
SPEAKER_01: It's lovely to have you.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: It's so wonderful to be here.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: I've been really looking forward to this conversation.
2:39
SPEAKER_01: So let's launch in.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me or share with the listeners what you do and also why you do it?
2:47
SPEAKER_02: I sure can.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: So to put it sort of succinctly, I educate, um, you know, I educate people and I give them the tools and the empowerment for anyone who is having to communicate or negotiate with narcissistic or high conflict personalities.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: Why I do it, um, you know, gosh, I could talk the whole podcast about why I do what I do, but um, you know, fundamentally, I believe we all deserve a life free of abuse and control.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: But sort of getting a little bit more granular, I saw that, you know, through my own experiences in this area, that there is so much information out there about the personality type, about the characteristics and the traits and how you should navigate them.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: And that's wonderful because education is a big part of it.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: But the how-to, the actual application of the tools is so hard.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't matter how smart you are, how educated, how much money you have, your career, it is irrelevant, it is so hard.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I learned the hard way and I know that it works, um, but I realize no one should do this alone.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and to have someone there that can guide you through it and you know, hold your nerve, stay the course, this is what's going on, and support you, I think, without sounding narcissistic myself, is really needed.
4:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's so it is so much needed.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I can't speak to how needed your work is.
4:27
SPEAKER_01: Like, let's go back a few steps then.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: What are the signs that you're in a relationship with a narcissist?
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And I wouldn't, I would really love it if you could talk to some of the early signs versus how it might change when the relationship ends, you separate.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there there are there are so many traits and they remain the same, they just get louder or bigger, you know, as the relationship goes on.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, uh look, if they arrived on a first date with a big sign that said, This is who I am, and I'm gonna destroy you, wouldn't that be so helpful?
5:04
SPEAKER_02: But they don't.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so what you might notice at the beginning, they talk about themselves a lot.
5:12
SPEAKER_02: A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, they are seeking praise and acknowledgement from you for what they do or who they know and things like that.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: You know, they make you feel great at first, you know, the good old love bombing in in whatever shape or form.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: Some people say to me, Oh, you know, I wasn't showered with compliments, but sometimes they're done in really tricky ways.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not looking for a relationship, I've just got out of something really horrible.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: But you, gosh, there's something about you, and you're like, I have been chosen, I'm so lucky.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, really, really tricky.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: Um, quid pro quo, you know, that they won't give without getting, and it'll be really subtle at the beginning, and they'll often one up you, and you can easily miss it because again, it is really subtle at the beginning.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, but as time goes on, you know, I'm always saying the mask always drops, always.
6:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you have to be aware and alert to spot it.
6:12
SPEAKER_02: I I think a big one is how they ignore your boundaries.
6:15
SPEAKER_02: They don't like boundaries, boundaries are kryptonite to them because you are there to fulfill them, serve them, and give them everything that they need so that they can survive.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: You know, so you might see things early on, like, I'd love to take you to dinner Friday night, and you say, Oh, unfortunately, Friday doesn't work.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: I've already got plans.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: Can you do Saturday?
6:35
SPEAKER_02: Now, an emotionally secure, healthy person will say, Ah, I was really excited to see you.
6:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, Saturday doesn't work for me, but let's find another time.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: What a bummer, I'll have to wait a little bit longer to see you.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, something like that.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: These personalities, it'll be more like, Well, I thought our dinner last time was really good and it seemed that you do you not want to see me because I can only do Friday night, or it might not be that overt, it could be something along the lines of, but I'm really excited to see you.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: Can't you make Friday work?
7:08
SPEAKER_02: They're ignoring what you are saying because they want Friday, it's really subtle, and then as the relationship progresses, the mask drops even more for longer periods of time, they're not so quick to put it back on again.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, it is the old stages of love bombing, um, and then that disregard, that devalue, and then the discard, and you'll see it play out, and these things become louder and more insidious.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about ending the relationship then.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: So divorcing a narcissist.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: What are the common challenges that come up?
7:44
SPEAKER_01: What are the patterns?
7:45
SPEAKER_01: How do they appear?
7:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, where do you begin with divorcing them?
7:52
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the list, it's like a roll call of things.
7:55
SPEAKER_02: It's the emotional manipulation, financial abuse, legal and systems abuse, um, the power struggles, their desire to get control back.
8:04
SPEAKER_02: Because when you leave, they have they have that sense of a loss of control and they can't function.
8:10
SPEAKER_02: They just they need to get that control back in order to get some sort of stability in their own system.
8:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, they will not put your children first if you have them.
8:21
SPEAKER_02: They may feign that they are putting the children first in what they say and what they do or how they appear, but they do not.
8:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, first and foremost is them lies, threats, bullying, intimidation, baseless accusations.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is a picnic basket full of things that you don't want, pretty much.
8:42
SPEAKER_02: It's awful.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: And then what about parenting afterwards?
8:46
SPEAKER_01: You've got you've got children together, you're separated, you're divorced, parenting.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: How do we navigate parenting with an ex-partner who is a narcissist?
8:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you'll, you know, a lot of people listening will think or have heard from people, you know, just try your best to co-parent.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: And maybe if you give them this, they'll give you that.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: And look, it's not good to be in the family court, and maybe you should just, you should, you should, you should, you should.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: And you feel like pulling your hair out because you want to scream.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: You don't understand, you don't understand who I'm dealing with.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: You know, if I just give them this, it won't resolve anything.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: They will want more.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: So quieten down the you should people in your life.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: And I don't mean that in an awful way.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: It's just understand that not everybody understands who and what you're dealing with.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: Get your support system of people who do get it.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: Now, with children, it's one of the trickiest and most heartbreaking areas because we should absolutely put our children first, but these personalities do not.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: So that's where you are starting.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, co-parenting isn't possible.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Co-parenting would be wonderful, you know, where you communicate and you are putting your child's best interest first.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: That goes out the window because it just can't happen.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: So they often refer to parallel parenting, which is literal.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: You are side by side, you are minimizing your interaction.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: You know, at the end of the day, as hard as it is, there are certain things you cannot control.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that might be when the kids are with the other parent and decisions they make, as long as your children are safe and there aren't crimes being committed and things like that, there are certain things you can't control.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: If it's a freezing cold day and you're FaceTiming your kids in a singlet and you're like, put a jumper on, that is out of your control.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: And there's certain things like that.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: Whereas a parent, it it's really hard.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: It sounds basic, but it is really hard.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of work to do around letting go of the things that you cannot control because they will eat you up again, subject to your children's safety and serious things occurring.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: You don't let those things go.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: But you're now in a world of parallel parenting with this person, and you know, when I speak, I'm cautious of sounding, you know, not too much like this is a nightmare and so much of a nightmare, don't leave.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm not saying that at all, but I really do feel that knowledge is power.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: And when you are aware that these things are coming and that they will happen in various shapes or forms, I think it actually empowers you to go, I know what's coming my way, and I'm prepared for the worst and hoping for the best.
11:22
SPEAKER_02: So the kids are really, really tricky, really tricky.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think you're right in that empower education is power and you can make empowered decisions and choices.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: Also, if you can preempt what's coming, you spot it faster.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: And it also stops you from being rattled or thrown off course because a lot of the tactics they use are scary.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, you are fearful that they might try and take the children or they might, you know, stop paying you know school fees or something like that.
11:57
SPEAKER_02: And that's how they keep you where they need you because it's fear, shame, guilt, all those horrible, horrible emotions and feelings.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: So when you know it's coming or you anticipate it, you're like, ah, there it is.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: So instead of you going, oh gosh, I'll stop doing that because he's gonna stop doing something or she'll stop doing something, you're like, no, no, no, I knew this was coming and this is my plan.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: So it's really important.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's a bit like a bingo card, isn't it?
12:28
SPEAKER_02: Oh, look, bingo, please, bingo, that one, that one, mark it off, mark it off.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I quite like that too because I often say to clients, in a horrible situation, sometimes you try and need to find some humor because you need to be able to laugh and have moments of levity in what is a really horrible, horrible situation.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: So if you're able to go, oh, there we go, I've almost got bingo and all the things that were coming my way, it does give you a moment of levity in these situations.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and it's also a fine balance between anticipating but not letting it consume your everyday every thought.
13:08
SPEAKER_02: And people are gonna be listening, going, Mia, what are you like?
13:12
SPEAKER_02: How do I do that?
13:14
SPEAKER_02: Because when they consume your every thought, where you sort of spend your energy, guess what?
13:22
SPEAKER_02: That's what's all gonna come your way.
13:24
SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of knowing, anticipating, but not spending your life in burrows consumed by them.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: And then they did, and then they said this, and then this happened, and then can you believe it?
13:36
SPEAKER_02: And you know, yes, you've got to get it off your chest, but if you spend your life 24-7 in that zone, only more of it's gonna come your way.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's get the support to help you through that.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Really tricky.
13:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I said in, I think even just last a couple of weeks ago on a podcast episode, I said changing changing your story, like the way you tell it to yourself and to others is really powerful and really important.
14:03
SPEAKER_01: And that's I guess what you're just saying there, like get out of the get out of the story a little bit too.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: Mindset is key, so important.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering, Maya, can you explain, moving on from that mindset stuff, which we might come back and touch on later, but can you explain the concept of supply?
14:22
SPEAKER_02: Because I think it's really crucial for people to understand people navigating this space, yes, understand that concept and get really absolutely you'll hear a lot of people talk about well, a narcissist wants to win and a narcissist wants all these things, and don't get me wrong, they love winning.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: But number one to a narcissist is narcissistic supply.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: So if you imagine a human, them, but on the inside is just a deep, dark void.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: There is nothing there, it's awful, it's horrible, and if you dig too deep, it's brutal.
15:01
SPEAKER_02: So they are unable to get any validation internally.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: Now, as human beings, that's in really important.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: You want to feel good about yourself, you want to be able to say, good job, Mia, and tap yourself on the back.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: They can't do that, they don't have it, and they will not look inwards because it's scary and horrific.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: So, what they do is they get all their validation from the external, what they're driving, their job, their friendship circle, even if it's all lies, they'll say it all because it sort of pumps them up.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: So, narcissistic supply is that it is that external validation, and it's like petrol for a car.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: They need it to function.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: Without it, the car will not start.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: And so there's a lady in America, Rebecca Zhang, she's fabulous, and she has distinguished between diamond level supply and coal level supply.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: So, diamond level supply is the good stuff, the job, the you know, celebrity, friends, the house they live in, the good-looking partner, the perfect family, all that really good stuff.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: Now that is top shelf supply for them.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: The coal level supply is the underbelly, the threats, gaslighting, manipulation, lies, bullying, it's the yucky stuff, but they it still gives them validation.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: They still like it.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: What they want first and foremost, diamond level, and they will they will you know discard the coal level for that diamond level, but they like both, and that's what feeds them, and and people really struggle with that because we don't operate like that, and you know, it's probably a very healthy sign that you cannot completely understand this personality because it it means you're not capable of it, but that's what supply is, and if you can remind yourself, you know, clients will say to me, Why can't he just agree this is so straightforward?
16:59
SPEAKER_02: And it's like because he is living for this from you, it's it's it's fueling the car.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: And going one step further with that fuel, that supply, how can you how can one cut off supply when you leave, especially if you still need to engage, for example, you're still negotiating a settlement, and if you have kids, you need how can you just cut off supply?
17:26
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, because the ideal scenario is no contact, that's it.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: You block them, they're gone off your social media, you don't email them, nothing, you change your number, whatever you need to do.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: But we aren't all in that boat, and some of us have to co-parent, or maybe there's a business partnership or whatever it might be where you do still need to communicate.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: So cutting off that supply, and this is where the whole grey rock, yellow rock concept concept comes in.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: So gray rock is literally that.
17:56
SPEAKER_02: I mean, tell me how many people you know that notice a gray rock or have called you and said, Sally Ann, oh my gosh, I saw the most beautiful gray rock the other day.
18:03
SPEAKER_02: No one does.
18:04
SPEAKER_02: We don't notice them, we walk straight past them.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: They're, you know, a gray rock itself, they're grey, they're aloof, they don't get your attention.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: That is what a gray rock is.
18:14
SPEAKER_02: Yes, no, full stop.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: Now, the concept of a yellow rock came in by Tina Swithan because what we were seeing was in the family courts across the world.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: The gray rock, you know, a judge, a magistrate, a registrar, they don't know either of you.
18:30
SPEAKER_02: So when you're corresponding like a gray rock, yes, no, they might, some very smart lawyer or the court officials themselves might look at you and go, Well, you're actually unresponsive.
18:42
SPEAKER_02: You're actually not working with him or her, you're being very aloof, and so you get painted as the difficult one.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: So the yellow rock was introduced, and it's more like a business communication.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: You wouldn't correspond with your boss like that, but you would add in common courtesy and manners.
19:01
SPEAKER_02: Hi, thank you so much for your email.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: Respond, kind regards, meah.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: So there's courtesy, there's you know, there's manners, those sorts of things, as hard as it is for some people.
19:14
SPEAKER_02: So, what I have seen, and it's not a criticism, I've done it myself, where people say or they read up and they find out, okay, no personal information, no explaining, justifying, defending, respond to what I need to, black and white, and add, you know, a touch of manners in there.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: And then you look at these emails, they're like, Yeah, I took out all the emotion.
19:36
SPEAKER_02: You're like, Oh, nope, no, you did not.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: And I say it's not a criticism because these people are masters at pushing your buttons, they installed the buttons, so they know how to push them.
19:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that whole concept of cutting off supply is where the gray rock and the yellow rock is going to be your best friend.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: And you know, whether it's with me or whether it's someone who understands where you go, have I done all of that in this communication?
20:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, and I'll give you, I'll I'll give you an example, probably does it better.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: I had someone recently who their ex could not get their children to a sporting event during their time.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: And they said, Oh, look, I can't get him there.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: Are you able to get him there?
20:19
SPEAKER_02: And she said, Yeah, of course, no problems.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: When will you drop him off?
20:23
SPEAKER_02: And the response was, you know, why would you think that I would drop him to you?
20:29
SPEAKER_02: When I ask you for help, I'm not asking you to make things more complex.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm not asking you to add more difficulty to my life.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: And he just kept going.
20:39
SPEAKER_02: And then he was like, Do you know what?
20:41
SPEAKER_02: If this is what it's like every time I ask you for help, then I'm not gonna bother.
20:45
SPEAKER_02: And she was like, Hold on a minute.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: You you've asked me for my help.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: Of course, you're going like what?
20:51
SPEAKER_02: You know, or if he couldn't get them there, just say, Look, I'm gonna really struggle.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: Is there any chance you could come and get him from me?
20:58
SPEAKER_02: That was not the response.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
21:01
SPEAKER_02: I was like, cut out all the noise.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: This is him just being entitled and you know, grumble, grumble, grumble.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, he still needs you to take your child to the game, so just respond.
21:12
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: What time will you be dropping him off to me?
21:16
SPEAKER_02: That is a yellow rock response.
21:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because don't respond to all the hooks.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: If you start saying, Well, of course, I would expect you to drop him to me because you're asking me for a favor, and that's how oh my gosh, you are then giving him just like a whole, you know, I can't even think of the best analogy, but so many options to go gotcha and then bang, bang, bang.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: I think too that term you just dropped it in there, gotcha.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: If you can catch yourself being got, oh, this is a gotcha.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, hang on.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: Now I need to yellow rock that, you know.
21:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: It's it's really hard to.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Because what they're doing is they're obviously having a go at you and questioning, you know, your integrity and how good of a mum or a dad you are.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: You're also sitting there going, well, is my child going to be left like you know in an Uber or something and they're too young or whatever it might be?
22:17
SPEAKER_02: So they know exactly what they're doing and how they're getting to you.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: So in those situations, it is so difficult to take the emotion out, find what it is that they actually need a response to, and ignore all the rest.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: Really, really tricky.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: And that's why I'm here.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: So why does it take 20 emails back and forth, back and forth, back and forth when you're trying to get your narcissistic ex?
22:44
SPEAKER_02: They want supply.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: They want supply.
22:47
SPEAKER_02: And you are in that delightful little zone of, you know, a lot of them are very rigid thinkers, black and white.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: There's there's no gray.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: So when you leave, and if you have seen who they are, you are a huge threat to the image that they have built, to the perception of who they are that they have put out there.
23:10
SPEAKER_02: You are like enemy number one.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: So not only do they want supply, but they want control back of you.
23:19
SPEAKER_02: And they want to ensure that you're not going to let the boss know who they are, you're not going to let the community know that they're actually, you know, really neglectful parents or whatever it might be.
23:30
SPEAKER_02: So they and you know, also the obvious ones, they want to win, they want to make life difficult for you, all those sorts of things.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: So they're not just going to say, yeah, sure, that makes sense.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: Well, let's do that.
23:44
SPEAKER_02: They won't do it.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: And that's why in this arena, you know, people hear this word and think it's sort of a dirty word or manipulative, and it's not.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: You have to be strategic.
23:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, you wouldn't go into a negotiation without having a strategy and a plan.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: So these personalities, you can't go in just hoping for the best or thinking that they'll see where you're coming from.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: No way.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Expecting them to respond in a normal way or in a way that you would respond, or yeah.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: No way.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: So I often talk to clients about you know accepting who you're dealing with, and it sounds so easy, but it really is not because you know, especially with a partner, you loved or loved this person, you have seen a version that you're like, but I know there's a good person there.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, all these things which keep you hooked, and in the hope that you'll be like, but you know I'm not that person, and you know I wouldn't do that, that's out the window once you've left, gone.
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Can you can you actually mediate successfully with a narcissist?
25:01
SPEAKER_02: You can.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: It's not easy, it takes a lot of preparation.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: If you walk into a mediation with a narcissist and you are not prepared, then it is a complete waste of time.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: If you walk into a mediation and you put all your cards on the table and they know exactly what you want and care about, it is a waste of time.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: If you are not documenting that mediation to within an inch of its life and getting them to sign and agree to something, you are wasting your time.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: So you need to sit down, and it's hard and it's awful, but you've got to do it.
25:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, and now I'm getting very bossy, I can hear it in myself, but I get so protective that I'm like, you will listen to me.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, you do need to know your rights.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: So you need legal advice about okay, property, you you know, best case you'll get 60%, worst case, you'll get 50%.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: Custody, if you go to a full final hearing tomorrow, your best case is this, your worst case.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: You need all of those parameters, whether you like them or not.
26:07
SPEAKER_02: You have to know what you're working within.
26:11
SPEAKER_02: Then you need to put a cost on avoiding court, a cost on avoiding endless rounds of you know, court hearings and mediations because they are worth something, they have a value.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: You need to get very clear on what you want.
26:27
SPEAKER_02: Don't ever tell them that.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: You get clear on what you want.
26:30
SPEAKER_02: You also have to know inside and out what they're gonna go for and what they care about the most.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: Because trust me, no one knows them like you do.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: What do they care about most?
26:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, people say to me, Oh, but I don't know if I've got leverage.
26:44
SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, yes, you've got leverage.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, is their career the most important thing to them?
26:50
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying go out there and put an ad in the paper that you know will damage their career, but know what matters to them.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: Is it money?
26:57
SPEAKER_02: Is it the house?
26:58
SPEAKER_02: Is it their car?
27:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, those sorts of things, and then start building in your strategy about where you're gonna start, what your plan is, what you're gonna concede, never, ever, ever concede without getting something in return with these personalities.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: Very bad idea.
27:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, so as you go along, and one of the biggest things, know your walk away points and walk away when they happen.
27:25
SPEAKER_02: You know, so many people will go, you know, get into a mediation and then be like, I just want agreement and I want out of this.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: And then they walk away and they go, Oh my goodness, what did I just agree to?
27:37
SPEAKER_02: I'm not okay with this.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: It is okay to not reach an agreement.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: I know it's awful and I know you want it, but it can't be at your expense or your children's expense.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: And it can't be something that you've said, if these four things they really push for, I am out.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: Be firm in all of that, in all of it.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: So it does take a bit of work and strategy, definitely.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: I love that you said know what what your leverage is.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: I talked recently in, I think, in the same podcast I just spoke about earlier with you about drivers, know what is driving you, and also know what the drivers of that other person are.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: So it's exactly the same thing, you know.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes, there is always leverage, there is always something that they care about.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: And they care about it because you care about it.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: So they want it because they know you want it, whatever it is, understand those drivers, both your own and those of the other person.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I'll often say um to clients, you know, whether they're going in with lawyers or not, um, you know, I do a shuttle mediation because you know, if you're sitting in front of them and you say the sky is blue, they'll spend the entire mediation convincing you you're crazy and the sky is pink.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: So it's a waste of time.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: So often a mediation by shuttle is a better idea, but document as you go.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: So say you agree on something, send the email to them or to their lawyer, whatever is happening, with your form of court orders, for example, and say, okay, so we've agreed on this.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: Is that correct?
29:10
SPEAKER_02: Let's move to the next point.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: And then you have documented it as the day goes on because you won't find anyone who slithers away from their agreement quicker than these personalities.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: So take steps to protect yourself and get that agreement there at the time.
29:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: Great advice.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about kids, Mia.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: When you when you have to send your kids into what you know will be, let's say, at best, an emotionally manipulative situation at their other parents' home.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: And at worst, it's, you know, it's more than that.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: How does anyone send their children into that space?
29:49
SPEAKER_01: What can be done?
29:50
SPEAKER_01: How can we equip the kids without being accused of alienation?
29:55
SPEAKER_02: Gosh, I feel for everyone in this situation, I truly do, because it's just, you know, your children are your heart outside of your body, and it pain, you know, pains is not even strong enough of a word, but it's just awful.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: So I did say before, know what you can and can't control.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: You cannot control them, what they say and what they do.
30:17
SPEAKER_02: And we all know they're speaking ill about you to the children.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: We all know they're playing games.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: Now you are now in a place in your life where you are parenting with an elephant on your back.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not exaggerating, it is like having a literal elephant on your back.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: They won't make it easy, they will make it hard, they will manipulate your children, all those sorts of things.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: So you are slugging around this massive elephant until you know, eventually they hopefully go away, or your children get old enough.
30:51
SPEAKER_02: But what I what I would really say, if you can, I always talk about getting support, and people will be like, oh my gosh, I just feel like money is going out left, right, and center.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: Lawyers, psychologists, forensic experts, courts, I get it, but reframe it too.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: This is an investment in you and your children.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: You are investing in you.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: It's so important.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: So get support for your children.
31:16
SPEAKER_02: You know, get them counseling.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: If you've got objections from the other one, get orders that they can see the psychologist, you know, do what you have to do to get them support, and that person will give them tools to navigate these situations and use their words, which is really important.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: What can you do?
31:33
SPEAKER_02: You can educate yourself.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: There's so much out there now with wonderful people doing brilliant work in this space around children, what they're experiencing, and what you can say that is age appropriate for your children.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: What you should never, ever, ever do is speak ill of them.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: Now, we are human beings.
31:52
SPEAKER_02: I know that people have moments where they say something and go, ugh.
31:56
SPEAKER_02: So, what are you going to do?
31:57
SPEAKER_02: You're going to show your children accountability and recovery.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: So, kids, I was really angry before, and I said something about your dad or your mum, and it was said in anger.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: And I'm really sorry, and I shouldn't have said it.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: So, I'm not saying everyone out there has to be this perfect model citizen and never make a mistake.
32:16
SPEAKER_02: Impossible.
32:18
SPEAKER_02: But show your children how to apologize, take accountability, and identify what you have done and why it was wrong.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: Now, what you could have said might have been spot on.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: That's not the point.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: It's not the point.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: So, all of those sorts of things.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: And the old adage here of like, or the old adage of put your oxygen mask on first.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, when I first had kids, I was like, oh, you know, when hell freezes over, would I look after myself before my children?
32:47
SPEAKER_02: No way.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: And now I'm like, oh, I get it.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Because if you're unconscious, how are you going to help your children?
32:53
SPEAKER_02: You can't.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: So get that support for yourself as well.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: There are some excellent people out there teaching people about what you can say, what you can do that is all age appropriate.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: Your kids are on their own journey, and it's not for you to tell them, oh, listen, I'll help you out here.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: This is who your mother is.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't it be good though if we could do that?
33:18
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't it be good if you're not?
33:19
SPEAKER_02: Well, everything in you wants to rescue them and save them and say, Let me help you here.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, you and their father or their mother is their parent.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: They love their parent.
33:30
SPEAKER_02: And when you say to them, you know, this person is this, they're like, Oh, am I like that?
33:35
SPEAKER_02: That's half me.
33:36
SPEAKER_02: I and it's confusing.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: They've got to get there by themselves.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: And I often speak with my clients, regardless of whether who they're dealing with on the other, on the other side, with the other parent, that yeah, that is half of your half of your kids' DNA came from that person.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: And they the child really deserves to have a relationship with that person.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: That is theirs.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: They can work it out, you know, if it's abusive or manipulative or with a narcissist, they can work it out in their own in their own time.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like, you know, sort of taking a holistic view that whilst it's almost like you yourself are on this journey in life and you are learning lessons as you go, and this is one hell of a lesson.
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Your children also are as well.
34:27
SPEAKER_02: And I get that instinct to protect, you know, cover shroud from all the badness.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: And this obviously is always subject to their safety.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: If they are unsafe or there are crimes being committed, I'm not saying sit back and say, Well, they're not with me, it's out of my control.
34:43
SPEAKER_02: We all know that is a very different situation, and you must call emergency services or police, whatever it might be.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: But in this situation where they come back and say, Dad said, you know, I hate, you know, awful things.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: It's not for you to turn around and go, Yeah, well, guess what?
34:58
SPEAKER_02: Your dad is.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: No.
35:00
unknown: No.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: As much as you want to.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: And the children are learning from you, right?
35:06
SPEAKER_01: They're learning from you how to deal with difficult, challenging, emotionally activating experiences in their life.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: Just like they're learning, they're learning.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: If if you're if you slip up, say something in anger and you own it, apologize.
35:25
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: That's a lesson you're teaching them.
35:28
SPEAKER_02: You can talk until you're blue in the face about what you should do, shouldn't do, you know, all these sorts of things.
35:35
SPEAKER_02: But if you yourself are doing them, kids learn more from what they see than what they hear.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: So if I'm saying to my kids, you know, if you wrong someone, you should take accountability and apologize.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: But then they see me yelling at my neighbor and accusing them of something and then being like, oh, that old, whatever.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm not role modeling that at all.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: Taking that children and family stuff further, I wanted to ask you about family reports.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: You know, the classic, how do I get the family report writer to see the truth?
36:14
SPEAKER_01: You and I both that, you know, they're master of controlling the narrative, they're master at playing the victim.
36:21
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: So how do we yeah, sorry.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: But no, you can't.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: I was just saying family reports are just nerve-wracking.
36:29
SPEAKER_02: They're just nerve-wracking.
36:31
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, again, your your fate to an extent is in the hands of a third party who doesn't know you, who doesn't know your ex, who doesn't know your children, all those sorts of things.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, ideally you've got a very good family lawyer who, you know, you've been through a process where report writers have been recommended and they've said yes, this one, no to that one.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, so hopefully your starting point is somewhat good because, like all professions, you're gonna get your good and you're gonna get your bad.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: So this is where the right support is critical, and that you don't agree to a family report writer who thinks, you know, mums should have all custody at all costs, or dads should have all cut, you know, depending on your situation.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: So what I can say with family reports, and you're gonna be like, gosh, Mia, stop saying this.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Be prepared.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: Don't walk in and just hope for the best.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: Because you are, like you said, you are dealing with someone who's charming, manipulative, can put on quite the show when they need to, absolutely.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: So, how you're going to go into it, have you know, sort of your top five examples, for example, of things that they have done and how they have impacted the children.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, if you go in there and say, Oh, you know, he's you know, a lying bastard and he cheated on me and da-da-da-da-da.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: It's like that all might be factually correct.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: But you're in there talking about the custody of your children.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you're going in there, and you know what you're also not saying, unless they are diagnosed, you're not saying he or she is a narcissist.
38:08
SPEAKER_02: Don't say it.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: I say that to them blue in the face.
38:12
SPEAKER_02: You are not qualified to say it if they're not diagnosed, so do not do it.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: And what you do is you find the examples that demonstrate the behaviors and the patterns and how they impact your children.
38:26
SPEAKER_02: That is what you need to focus on.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: You need to be yourself, you know.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: If you are a good human and a good mum or a good dad, that will come through and be careful how you speak, you know, be prepared, have snacks for the kids, bring in some games, all those sorts of things.
38:44
SPEAKER_02: So, because they're watching you, they are watching you even when you think they are not.
38:49
SPEAKER_02: So, if you're sitting in the reception waiting, and your ex walks past and you ignore them, they see it.
38:56
SPEAKER_02: The receptionist is watching you.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: So say hello, you know, all those sorts of things.
39:01
SPEAKER_02: You are literally being watched.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, and I'm I also hope that as time is going on, and you know, court officials, family report writers, everyone in that family system is becoming more educated on coercive control, domestic violence, narcissism, you know, these these tactics, post-separation abuse.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm hoping that as we shine a spotlight on that more and more, people are more aware of it and they are looking for those signs.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: So preparation.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
39:41
SPEAKER_01: All right.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: I think we could talk on and on and on for hours.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm gonna throw in one final question.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, your top tips for anyone leaving a narcissist separately.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: I've got a few.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: I've got a few.
40:04
SPEAKER_02: How long can you do that?
40:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: How long can this podcast go for?
40:07
SPEAKER_02: Look, first and foremost, your safety is number one at all times.
40:11
SPEAKER_02: So always, always, always, everything is subject to your safety.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: Always.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: So let that's the most important.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, if you are thinking of leaving, keep your plans to yourself.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Do not tell them, you know, what you're going to do, where you're going to go, what you're gonna tap.
40:29
SPEAKER_02: Now, think keep your plans to yourself.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: They will be used against you and sabotaged, pretty much.
40:36
SPEAKER_02: So keep that all to yourself.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: Start documenting anything that's relevant: abuse, manipulation, control, objective, contemporaneous documentation.
40:47
SPEAKER_02: So think of the audience being a judge or the police or whatever it might be.
40:51
SPEAKER_02: So don't send an email to yourself being like that, lying, prick, to that, none of that.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: But today this happened, the kids heard it all, and afterwards they were really ratty, or whatever it might be, but document objectively and the impact on the children, because that's what courts obviously care about.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, so start documenting those things, sign out of your email, social media, all those sorts of things, and re-sign in and change your passwords.
41:18
SPEAKER_02: I cannot tell you the amount of people that go, oh no, he would never, no, he would never read my emails.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes, they do, because they know that you're thinking of leaving.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: So I can guarantee you that they are in the background finding the next partner because God, they cannot be alone.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: They are, you know, hiding finances off somewhere, they're getting legal advice about what to do, they're bringing them, they're doing all these things.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: Trust me, they are.
41:47
SPEAKER_02: They're not silly, they're not waiting for the day where you surprise them.
41:50
SPEAKER_02: So you start changing your passwords, um, checking things like your bank account.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: If it's your bank account, but they are named as someone who can ring and ask questions, ring the bank, take them off.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: Joint accounts, ring the bank and say, we both cannot touch this account without both of our consent.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: Start looking after yourself, get documentation.
42:14
SPEAKER_02: Because I guarantee you, once you leave and you're in your financial discussions, oh, things are going to go missing.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: And you're like, no, no, no.
42:21
SPEAKER_02: I know that she has this bank account.
42:23
SPEAKER_02: I know that he's got a huge amount of money over here, and he'll be like, I don't know what you're talking about.
42:27
SPEAKER_02: So start getting the documentation, start putting things in places where they can't find it, and you know, prepare.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of work.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: Again, some people might say, Mia, that's really manipulative.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: No, it's not.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: It is actually protecting yourself because all of this they're going to do it tenfold.
42:46
SPEAKER_02: So protect yourself.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, I would also start educating yourself on what to expect.
42:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, those behaviors you're encountering in the relationship will escalate when you leave.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: So they get worse.
43:02
SPEAKER_02: They don't turn around and say, I understand why you've left.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: I was a really difficult person.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
43:09
SPEAKER_02: So they will escalate and again, subject to your safety.
43:12
SPEAKER_02: You know, the abusive messages and the name calling and the gaslighting, it will get worse.
43:18
SPEAKER_02: So if you know it's coming, educate yourself.
43:21
SPEAKER_02: It's coming and be prepared for it so it doesn't throw you off course, you know, as quickly.
43:27
SPEAKER_02: Start getting your support systems, you know, your legal advice, your financial settlement advice, um, counseling, therapists, whatever it might be, friends and family who understand and those who don't, well, they need to be muted for a little bit.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for your input and leave it at that because they don't get it.
43:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: I would also caution even if you have a great relationship with your ex's, mum, dad, brother, sister, whatever, be very careful because they might actually be wonderful people, but they They are the mum, dad, brother, sister, whatever it might be to this person that is their family.
44:06
SPEAKER_02: And even if they think that person is awful, if you're telling them things, they might just say something without realizing the impact it's going to have on you leaving.
44:16
SPEAKER_02: So be very, very, very careful about what you tell your ex's family and friends.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was saying choose choose your inner circle very wisely and keep it very small.
44:29
SPEAKER_02: Very, very wisely.
44:30
SPEAKER_02: Minimize your contact.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: Um, they don't need to know where you're going on a night when you don't have the children.
44:38
SPEAKER_02: They don't need to know why you're getting a babysitter.
44:41
SPEAKER_02: They don't need to know, oh, okay, on Mother's Day, I'm planning a picnic with the kids at this place because they're already going to ruin any special events.
44:50
SPEAKER_02: When they know the details, oh, they're like, thank you so much.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: So it's so, so, so tricky to go from loving someone and having children with them potentially to this side because it is literally the polar opposite, but it is about protecting you and your boundaries and your well-being and being able to move forward because they will stop that at any cost.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: As I said earlier, we could continue talking on and on.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: I just want to revisit one thing which we touched on, and then the conversation sort of skipped off.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: That balance as a parent between protecting your children from a narcissistic other parent and being seen as alienating by the family court system.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: I know we talked about the system is changing.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: I know it is changing, but there's still that fine balance, I feel, with clients who are navigating this particular space within the system.
45:58
SPEAKER_01: You want to protect your kids, and also you can't be seen to be alienating.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: How do we think gosh, uh, I hope people have researched parental alienation and the person who coined the term and how it is not an actual thing, but that to one side.
46:17
unknown: Yeah.
46:17
SPEAKER_02: You know, especially where I specialise being on the communications and sort of, you know, negotiating with them.
46:23
SPEAKER_02: If you've got someone, I'll give a really basic example.
46:26
SPEAKER_02: If you have said you can pick up the children on Saturday at midday and have them for the afternoon or whatever, and your ex does not arrive and doesn't pick them up, you've got to start getting a little bit smart and documenting those things because it's not the first thing that you think of.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: You're sitting there and you're hurt for your children.
46:44
SPEAKER_02: You know, you well, you're hurt for all the things in something like that.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: But whether it is an email to them or a record for yourself, today I said that they can have the kids for Saturday afternoon to pick them up at this time.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: They agreed and they never arrived.
47:01
SPEAKER_02: The kids were really sad, and I had to explain to them that maybe mum got held up, maybe dad got caught up at work, or you know, because you don't want to sit there and go, they're a useless this and that.
47:11
SPEAKER_02: Um document all of that.
47:14
SPEAKER_02: So when they go to court and say, she never lets me see the kids, she withholds them, even when I'm meant to see them.
47:20
SPEAKER_02: You're like, okay, here's all my records.
47:23
SPEAKER_02: Instead of it being, because remember that judge does not know either of you, instead of it being his word against yours or your word against hers, you've got a contemporaneous record of what happened.
47:38
SPEAKER_02: If you send it to them, they're not going to respond and say, Yeah, you're right, my apologies, I got caught up.
47:45
SPEAKER_02: They're going to lie through their teeth.
47:47
SPEAKER_02: And that's when they're trying to hook you in.
47:49
SPEAKER_02: And you can always respond with, you know, you know that's not true.
47:54
SPEAKER_02: You know that's not what happened.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, if you'd like to spend some time with the kids another time, please let me know.
48:01
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, you and it's got to work within your parenting plan and orders and all those sorts of things.
48:06
SPEAKER_02: But you don't need to be like, you know, Sally Ann, you know that you weren't there.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: We were waiting out the front.
48:12
SPEAKER_02: Why would you lie about this?
48:13
SPEAKER_02: There's no point in any of that because they will go around in circles until they convince you that you left the children on the curve.
48:20
SPEAKER_02: That's how effective they are.
48:22
SPEAKER_02: So get your documentation in place, get your evidence in place that you can debunk these things.
48:29
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's really, really important.
48:30
SPEAKER_02: And um, again, I just don't think people think about it because there's so much going on in that moment, understandably.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: So, but start doing those things.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: You know that didn't happen.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: That's not true.
48:42
SPEAKER_02: We were waiting out the front.
48:44
SPEAKER_02: It's all on the record.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great tips, great advice.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: Now, Mia, where can the listeners find you if they want to connect with you further?
48:55
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'd love that.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, so on Instagram, one word grey rock consulting, um, or the website is www greyrockconsulting.com.au.
49:06
SPEAKER_02: Reach out, you can book in with me and we can have discussion and and see what you need and and what could work.
49:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I truly, truly am so passionate about you know eradicating this behaviour.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, might not happen in my lifetime, but I still have hope.
49:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I just, you know, for anyone in it, I get it, and I just know um that this works and I can help.
49:30
SPEAKER_02: So please reach out if you're in this situation.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
49:34
SPEAKER_01: I will drop links to your Instagram and also your website in the show notes for this episode.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Mia.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: It's been a great conversation, and as I said, one that could probably go on for days.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: For days and days.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much for having me.
49:50
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: Very welcome.
49:53
SPEAKER_01: I really hope you enjoyed this conversation with Mia.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: She is an absolute wealth of knowledge and loaded with experience.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: So if this resonates with you, please reach out and connect with her either via her website or on Instagram.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: And of course, if you would like me on your team as you separate from, divorce, someone who is particularly challenging, high conflict, there is always a link in the show notes to book a call with me to chat through coaching options.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: There's also the opportunity just to send me a message about the podcast, any feedback you have, anything you would like to share with me.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: I'm always open to hear from you.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, bye for now.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: You can follow me on Instagram at ReflectCoaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
50:50
SPEAKER_01: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
51:02
SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Until then.