Latest / Heroes Behind the Badge / The Nancy Guthrie Case: What Investigators Got Wrong - And the AI That Could Solve It - Pt 2

Transcript

The Nancy Guthrie Case: What Investigators Got Wrong - And the AI That Could Solve It - Pt 2 · Heroes Behind the Badge

• 0:09
  Dennis Collins: In part one, Morgan Wright tore apart the prevailing
• 0:13
  narrative of the Guthrie case using first principles investigation.
• 0:18
  Today we go deeper.
• 0:20
  Morgan was in the room after nine 11 helping design how 18,000 law
• 0:25
  enforcement agencies share intelligence.
• 0:28
  He had the data to catch the DC snipers before they were ever caught, and now
• 0:34
  he's built a platform that tracked down a fugitive in just 36 hours that law
• 0:38
  enforcement couldn't find for six months.
• 0:41
  Today, Morgan tells us how technology
• 0:44
  And artificial intelligence are about to change cold case investigation
• 0:48
  forever, and how you as a citizen can be part of solving cases
• 0:54
  that have gone cold for decades.
• 0:56
  This is heroes behind the badge.
• 1:06
  Bill Erfurth: I am a little more interested in Morgan.
• 1:09
  I wanna find out about Morgan's
• 1:12
  Organization and some of the interesting things that you said that are new,
• 1:16
  cutting edge technology and ways to go about investigating crime.
• 1:20
  So Morgan, maybe you can tell us about that a little bit.
• 1:25
  Morgan Wright: I'd be happy to.
• 1:26
  Bill Erfurth: All right,
• 1:27
  Morgan Wright: so this actually, this idea actually started, the
• 1:29
  genesis of it was after nine 11 I was doing work, inside DOD on the
• 1:34
  counterintelligence field activity, joint counterintelligence assessment group.
• 1:37
  We were saying we've gotta look at this, all this data, we have all
• 1:40
  these systems and, and, find the risk.
• 1:44
  And then, uh, nine 11 happened and, I was doing work.
• 1:49
  I ended up working with the Department of Justice.
• 1:51
  I actually, I'm the architect.
• 1:53
  I wrote the entire concept, what's called the concept of operations 145
• 1:56
  page strategy on how to share information between all 18,000 federal, tribal,
• 2:01
  state, and local law enforcement agencies.
• 2:02
  And if you're listening out there, and you know what Ban is, that was our first win.
• 2:06
  There used to be like two and a half separate systems for ballistics.
• 2:09
  We actually made the case, there should be a single system, should
• 2:12
  be that sole source of information.
• 2:14
  And so we got that done.
• 2:15
  But the, thing I was frustrated with
• 2:18
  That led into I was the lead subject matter expert, consolidate
• 2:21
  into the terrorist watch list.
• 2:22
  We did the proposal, I came in 'cause I was doing work at justice.
• 2:25
  We looked at all the dots.
• 2:27
  Here's the case study on that real quick and why, what I'm doing, why
• 2:31
  I believe in what I'm doing now.
• 2:32
  Um, in April of 2001, Nawaf al-Hazmi, who was who, uh, through link analysis
• 2:37
  we determined is like the second most important person behind Mohamed Atta.
• 2:41
  He was stopped by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol, written a ticket.
• 2:45
  Guess what?
• 2:45
  Checked it in CIC.
• 2:47
  His record is in NCIC offline.
• 2:49
  He was let go.
• 2:50
  He paid his ticket in August of 2001.
• 2:53
  State Department puts him on a watch list.
• 2:55
  Why do you put somebody on a watch list who's already in the country?
• 2:58
  So we missed the chance to connect the dots there Several times, some
• 3:02
  of these hijackers were stopped, like Muhammad Atta was stopped in July.
• 3:06
  He had, overstayed his visa at that point.
• 3:08
  Uh, he had warrants in another county for failure to appear, and
• 3:11
  we failed to connect the dots.
• 3:12
  Dennis Collins: Wow.
• 3:13
  So,
• 3:14
  Morgan Wright: and that's, what, what, when I was talk, we were talking
• 3:16
  about doing work on the sniper case.
• 3:17
  I kept telling 'em, guys, all the data you need is there.
• 3:20
  We need to look at it the same way, the way ViCAP, the violent criminal
• 3:23
  apprehension program is supposed to work.
• 3:25
  You look at, the, crime scene, you look at the body, you look at whatever it
• 3:30
  is right there of signatures that you, and then you say, these are similar, a
• 3:33
  uh, serial killer may change their mo, but they rarely change their signature.
• 3:36
  So you look at what's the signature.
• 3:39
  But, I started saying, Hey, look, If you look at the number of people
• 3:42
  in the US age, 16 or older, and the NIJ, national Institutes of
• 3:46
  Justice did all these studies.
• 3:48
  It's a certain amount, the number that have at least one contact
• 3:51
  with law enforcement, then two, then three, then fourth, then five.
• 3:53
  That number got very small.
• 3:54
  So I said, let's supply that same model and draw circles
• 3:57
  around every, what's called ORI.
• 3:59
  That's kinda like the IP address for an agency.
• 4:01
  It identifies very specifically who an agency is and where.
• 4:05
  Let draw circles around that and then compare everything
• 4:07
  that's been run in NCIC offline.
• 4:09
  Compare that and find out what's in common.
• 4:11
  Well, guess what?
• 4:12
  I found Bill, 97 vehicles had been run in the National Capital Region, had
• 4:15
  had their tags run two or more times.
• 4:17
  Out of those 97, 3 were Chevy Caprices.
• 4:19
  One belonged to Malvo and Muhammad, and four times the Chevy Caprice
• 4:22
  was seen leaving the shooting.
• 4:24
  We had all the data we needed to do it.
• 4:26
  So I said, okay.
• 4:27
  Fast forward, 2013.
• 4:31
  my last quote, official job executive.
• 4:33
  I was an executive at Bell Labs Tel Lucent, but actually my team
• 4:36
  built what's now called FirstNet.
• 4:37
  We did the first demonstration of it.
• 4:39
  We rolled it out.
• 4:40
  Um, I, so I voice like this tech intersection between
• 4:44
  people and technology.
• 4:45
  So 2013, I had this idea that says, Hey, look, we're all connected to a case.
• 4:49
  Well, at that time, what was the platform that connected
• 4:51
  everybody in Six Ways to Sunday?
• 4:53
  It was Facebook, so I said, let's quit treating cases, like
• 4:57
  they're just a, a standalone.
• 4:58
  Let's treat cases like there were profile on Facebook and
• 5:01
  how are you connected to those?
• 5:03
  So I originally started off date, location, time, demographics,
• 5:06
  relation, and then I was morphed into geographic demographic, psychographic.
• 5:10
  But so I did, I built it, did a demonstration.
• 5:13
  Mike Chapman here in Loudoun County, he's a good friend of mine.
• 5:15
  For a long time sheriff there, I said, Hey, gimme a fugitive case.
• 5:20
  And it kind of looked like this.
• 5:21
  He said, Hey, I said, only open source information.
• 5:24
  I don't want no CGIs.
• 5:26
  No.
• 5:26
  So this is actually a US Al case that I'm working on with the US Marshals,
• 5:30
  but I, that's all I got was a flyer.
• 5:32
  I took that flyer, did open source research, found another 15
• 5:35
  locations this guy was known to be in, put that into our system.
• 5:38
  They'd been looking for this guy for six months.
• 5:40
  We found him in 36 hours.
• 5:43
  Three states away in a place.
• 5:44
  They had no idea he was there.
• 5:46
  And the reason it was being, it goes back to, we're all connected somehow.
• 5:49
  So when I looked at this, I said I wanted to find everything that
• 5:53
  connected somebody back to this crime.
• 5:56
  Um, I did a whole case study on the Cleveland kidnappings, Amanda Berry,
• 5:59
  Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight.
• 6:03
  I don't, a lot of people don't realize, but they were all held
• 6:06
  within five miles of where they were kidnapped, I think three miles.
• 6:09
  And when you look at the sketch that they had of the suspect and compared
• 6:13
  it to Ariel Castro, I'm telling you that is I've seen, and I know you
• 6:17
  guys have had scenes of sketches done by police artists, sometimes they
• 6:20
  don't even come close to matching.
• 6:22
  Right.
• 6:22
  This looked like somebody took the picture and drew his.
• 6:25
  Through, the sketch from his picture.
• 6:26
  It was so good, but yet they didn't share that information in the neighborhoods
• 6:30
  where this is, where this had happened.
• 6:31
  So I said, we gotta solve that.
• 6:34
  Bill Erfurth: Mm. So quick question.
• 6:35
  I just want, I, I just wanna see if we can jump back into that, and of
• 6:39
  course, without giving away trade secrets, you got it done in 36 hours.
• 6:43
  Can you expound on that?
• 6:45
  Morgan Wright: Oh, it's not a trade secret.
• 6:46
  It's, it's the, all I did was think about it the way nobody else
• 6:49
  did, which is everybody treated Facebook like, Hey, we'll just go on
• 6:52
  Facebook and we'll post a picture.
• 6:53
  Here's what we're looking for.
• 6:55
  bill, the only way you would know that exists is if you're
• 6:57
  scrolling through Facebook.
• 6:59
  And you happen to see that post by that department on that day before it
• 7:03
  gets buried by 10 other posts, right?
• 7:06
  So, I said, no, we, have to, how do, we maintain persistence?
• 7:10
  Codis, uh, bin, uh, it was a AFIS at the time.
• 7:13
  It's now NGI.
• 7:14
  How do we put something in there so it persists and it
• 7:16
  waits for connection to happen?
• 7:17
  So I just simply said, treat the case as a profile, as a person.
• 7:21
  So that person has location.
• 7:22
  So if you go into Facebook, you can say, Hey, I used to live
• 7:24
  here, here, here, and here.
• 7:26
  And then.
• 7:27
  How many times have you guys logged into Facebook and found a
• 7:29
  connection to somebody that's like, on a completely different computer?
• 7:32
  A completely different network?
• 7:33
  Completely different email, of course.
• 7:35
  Dennis Collins: Yeah.
• 7:35
  Morgan Wright: And it's like May.
• 7:36
  So Facebook and a lot of these folks are very eerie how they do it.
• 7:40
  So Bill, that's all I did.
• 7:41
  I just simply said, Hey look, where's this guy live?
• 7:44
  And then based on that, when people connected, they connected to our system.
• 7:48
  We had like 50,000 users at one time and about 500 agencies.
• 7:52
  when they connected they, they would link their.
• 7:54
  Facebook profile to the system?
• 7:56
  Well, the Facebook profile compared their profile to the case profile
• 7:59
  and found out what they had in common, and that's how we found it.
• 8:01
  Actually, I did a whole segment on uh, A, B, C.
• 8:04
  Uh, they interviewed Mike, they interviewed me.
• 8:07
  About how we found the guy, and that was just simply, it was just
• 8:09
  connecting those things in common.
• 8:12
  But it, you can't connect the dots unless you collect the dots.
• 8:14
  Bill and the dots all have to be in one place.
• 8:17
  So what I did was I re-architected it because the problem with Facebook.
• 8:22
  And I'm not talking about it as a company, but just talk.
• 8:24
  The whole logistical problem is the algorithm changes all the
• 8:26
  time, and it's a privacy issue.
• 8:28
  They don't own, they own the data.
• 8:29
  We never own the data.
• 8:30
  So how did we redo this?
• 8:32
  So it came to me and said, well, let's just use open source information,
• 8:35
  geographic demographic, psychographic.
• 8:36
  Everything has to translate back into geospatial, into a location, but.
• 8:41
  For example, take this case that I'm working on right now at the Marshalls.
• 8:44
  If we, we've actually got this listed on our site.
• 8:46
  So if you go to, uh, OpenUnsolved.org, you can find, you can click on
• 8:50
  the thing that says Active cases.
• 8:51
  She's one of the cases here.
• 8:53
  This flyer only lists two locations.
• 8:56
  Just the town of where the crime was committed.
• 8:58
  And then the location in Ohio where she killed her boyfriend, dismembered
• 9:01
  him and dumped his body parts on I 75.
• 9:04
  Well, I went through, I found another 12 or 13 locations I found family
• 9:08
  members she was connected to, which now becomes additional locations.
• 9:11
  and so that's the way we approach it.
• 9:13
  We say, what are all the locations in common?
• 9:15
  That's how we approach it.
• 9:16
  I started with a flyer like this with Mike Chapman.
• 9:18
  So now all of our cases we're putting in, we've got the pilot's going on right
• 9:22
  now, so we actually have a pilot program.
• 9:24
  Uh, we're gonna cap it at 15.
• 9:26
  We're almost there.
• 9:26
  So if any agencies are interested, uh, you can go to OpenUnsolved.org.
• 9:30
  You can register under the law enforcement side.
• 9:34
  But we've got agencies right now from California to Virginia.
• 9:37
  wow.
• 9:37
  You know, and we're, we're looking for all different sizes.
• 9:40
  So, so to kind of bring it back, you know, what's the system is.
• 9:42
  So, um, when we did it this way, we partnered with the Chesterfield County
• 9:45
  Police Department and the Virginia Association Chiefs, the police.
• 9:48
  So I've, I've known Dana Schrad and VACP (Virginia Association of Chiefs
• 9:50
  of Police) for many, many years.
• 9:51
  Good partners, good friends.
• 9:53
  So we actually, through Chesterfield, through Jeff Katz, who is the
• 9:56
  colonel there, who's now the Colonel of the State Police in Virginia.
• 9:59
  Which is good for us.
• 10:01
  we were able to get two grants from DOJ and help build this out.
• 10:04
  Now these are micro grants, so we built this entire system based on
• 10:09
  less money than you would pay with fringe and benefits and salary.
• 10:12
  Less than you would pay one and a half executives for one year and one agency.
• 10:16
  So it's very.
• 10:17
  It's been very much, we had to make some trade-offs, but the system's functional.
• 10:21
  It's operational.
• 10:22
  We've got cases in there now.
• 10:24
  We are, what we're doing now is I'm a firm believer in community policing.
• 10:28
  Uh, I sat on the ICP community policing committee for six years, so I never
• 10:32
  solved a case with too few leads.
• 10:33
  I always solved a case than we had more leads than we ever needed, which
• 10:37
  was good, bad in a way, but good.
• 10:39
  But so.
• 10:40
  this can't work just on the police alone.
• 10:42
  This is the only system in the United States that puts the police and the
• 10:45
  public on the same platform to share locations in common between locations
• 10:49
  in their life that are relevant to them.
• 10:51
  Yes.
• 10:51
  Comparing it to locations in a case.
• 10:53
  And so it sits like codis, like DNA.
• 10:56
  You put a profile in there.
• 10:57
  And it either makes a match or it doesn't.
• 10:59
  And if it doesn't make a match, it sits there and it waits until something's
• 11:02
  put in that it does make a match.
• 11:03
  And now everybody benefits.
• 11:05
  So our goal is to link all the crime stoppers together and the
• 11:08
  crime solvers into one unified place, one unified platform.
• 11:12
  But we're rolling it out, in Virginia and California, probably
• 11:15
  Ohio and maybe Tennessee with our pilot program right now.
• 11:19
  Bill Erfurth: Morgan, before when you started the interview, you, I
• 11:21
  just wanna talk about something that, that we were chatting about before
• 11:26
  and, you were talking about how now you're using technology mm-hmm.
• 11:30
  And, uh, all these social media sites and whatnot, to, bring together,
• 11:35
  to show who went to school together and who lived in the same town or
• 11:40
  who lived in the same neighborhood.
• 11:42
  Talk about that a little bit.
• 11:44
  Morgan Wright: So that just comes from the pattern matching.
• 11:46
  So it's like when you look at a case, So you think about doing victimology,
• 11:50
  like say on a homicide, a lot of people just look at it around that.
• 11:53
  But when we say, when we look at it, we look at it from a geospatial standpoint,
• 11:57
  and a temporal standpoint, geospatial.
• 11:59
  It's not only where's the victim live right then, and where did
• 12:02
  she work, but where was she born?
• 12:03
  Where did she go to school?
• 12:04
  Where are all of these other places that are relevant in her
• 12:07
  life that may generate a lead?
• 12:10
  Because guess what, like I used to live in Kansas, so if
• 12:14
  you put a case in from Kansas.
• 12:17
  I'm not living in Kansas anymore.
• 12:19
  Haven't been there for 26 years, but I would get a notification now
• 12:21
  because I used to live there where that case was and I might know the guy.
• 12:25
  Look, if you guys remember America's Most Wanted, I mean, I was a
• 12:28
  technical advisor with John Walsh and his crew for a year and a half.
• 12:30
  Yeah, John Wal.
• 12:31
  I was there for the 1000th episode.
• 12:33
  One of the things I designed called Digital Signage for Public Safety, we
• 12:36
  actually featured on the 1000th episode.
• 12:40
  Imagine when a MW launched, everybody says, is this gonna work or not?
• 12:44
  Then they caught an FBI top 10, and then it kind of exploded from there.
• 12:48
  But with, TV, you have to be watching.
• 12:51
  It was appointment tv.
• 12:52
  They might have 3000 cases, but again, 44 minutes of network television.
• 12:56
  You might be lucky to get five cases on there, right?
• 12:59
  And 2,995 don't get the time of day.
• 13:02
  Then you also get what they call white girl syndrome, the Gabby Petito
• 13:05
  case, all this focus on her right.
• 13:07
  What are we doing for all the other cases?
• 13:08
  So the way the technology works is we don't care.
• 13:11
  Age, race, sex, height, socio, doesn't matter.
• 13:14
  It's like we treat it like a profile.
• 13:17
  It, stays in there.
• 13:18
  It's ones and zeros.
• 13:19
  It doesn't care.
• 13:20
  But if you come in because of one case bill, if you come in because of
• 13:23
  a case that involves Nancy Guthrie.
• 13:26
  And you say, Hey, I wanna find out if I'm connected to that case.
• 13:28
  You have zero connection to that, but you might be connected to 10 other
• 13:31
  cases that you weren't aware about.
• 13:33
  So it doesn't matter.
• 13:34
  Case brings you in, we connect you to everything that's inside there.
• 13:37
  And then the second thing we're doing, um, we want to create, and we've
• 13:42
  already started doing this, so we've, we want to create the first, what's
• 13:44
  called large language model for law enforcement, a universal large language
• 13:48
  model, harness the power of ai,
• 13:50
  Dennis Collins: right?
• 13:51
  Morgan Wright: The way we're doing that right now is, doesn't matter which.
• 13:55
  Chat bot.
• 13:55
  You use like a, uh, chat.
• 13:57
  Chat, GPT, perplexity.
• 13:59
  Grok, Claude.
• 14:00
  But, I'm working with Johnny Capelli out of Chesterfield County, but I started,
• 14:04
  I'm saying, why don't we do this, right?
• 14:05
  Why don't we create structured prompts and take advantage of the power of ai?
• 14:10
  So, um, we've now got several structured prompts for homicide
• 14:13
  cases, uh, kidnappings.
• 14:15
  Missing persons fugitives that go through.
• 14:18
  And once you set the context, the role you, you do the interview so
• 14:21
  that chat bot asks you questions.
• 14:23
  Then the task I generated about a 15 page document and I shared it with the marshals
• 14:27
  stuff that they weren't even aware of.
• 14:29
  And so what we wanna do is how do I make an investigator.
• 14:33
  Be able to do 10 times the work without working 10 times longer.
• 14:36
  Right?
• 14:36
  And so we have to figure out how to harness the power of ai.
• 14:39
  So we're actually gonna do a one hour course called Structured
• 14:42
  Prompts for criminal investigations.
• 14:45
  Dennis Collins: That's brilliant.
• 14:45
  Morgan Wright: What we're
• 14:45
  Dennis Collins: brilliant.
• 14:46
  Morgan Wright: But every agency I've talked to so far on this
• 14:48
  pilot program, this is one of the questions I ask, are you using ai?
• 14:51
  And do you know what a structured prompt is?
• 14:52
  No.
• 14:53
  Johnny Capelli, and I know we're recording this on a day, nobody,
• 14:57
  it'll come out later, but.
• 14:58
  We're recording this on a Friday.
• 15:00
  The day before Johnny, the guy I'm working with, he's our liaison.
• 15:03
  He retired from Chesterfield County, an expert in nobody,
• 15:06
  body homicides, cold cases.
• 15:08
  He's actually working with the Texas Rangers on a case.
• 15:10
  He produced a report using the structured prompt I developed, and he's
• 15:13
  enhanced, gave it to the Texas Rangers.
• 15:15
  These guys are, you know, and girls are great.
• 15:18
  They go, how did you do this?
• 15:19
  Where did you get this?
• 15:19
  And he said.
• 15:20
  That's it.
• 15:21
  So this is really just introducing people to the power of what's already out there.
• 15:26
  And again, we're, we're a nonprofit, we're funded by the government right now.
• 15:29
  Now would we take donors?
• 15:30
  I don't wanna take anything away from you guys, but if anybody wants to donate to
• 15:33
  us, we're a C3, we'll take your money.
• 15:35
  You know, but we're looking, but what we're looking to do is get
• 15:37
  funded the same way NCMEC does.
• 15:39
  Ncmec, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
• 15:42
  As a authorization.
• 15:43
  The program's authorized every year or every four years.
• 15:46
  They get 47 to 50 million a year.
• 15:48
  They have about 250 employees.
• 15:50
  We're saying we're gonna invert that model and be very technology focused.
• 15:53
  AI focused.
• 15:54
  We're we're analysts.
• 15:55
  We're not investigators in the field, not case managers.
• 15:58
  We wanna make it easier for you to solve your case.
• 16:00
  So we've inverted our model.
• 16:01
  We can do with 19 people and $6.75 million.
• 16:05
  We can cover every case.
• 16:07
  Any case that's listed in the NCIC manual, we can cover all those cases.
• 16:11
  And by the way, the internet has no concept of distance.
• 16:14
  Doesn't matter where you are in the world, we can make connections
• 16:17
  between here to Australia.
• 16:19
  Bill Erfurth: So Morgan, this is Morgan.
• 16:20
  If this is a big question, this comes up all the time and we have a mass
• 16:24
  shooting or some crazy crime, you know, clearly everything we're talking
• 16:29
  about right now, it's much easier to be an investigator today than it was
• 16:34
  20 years ago because of technology.
• 16:37
  But oftentimes we'll have these mass shootings, these school shootings,
• 16:41
  and it always comes up and, and says, well, there were these red flags and
• 16:47
  there were these posts on social media.
• 16:49
  Why wasn't this identified earlier?
• 16:52
  How, do you think that what you're talking about may potentially be able
• 16:58
  to identify those things in advance?
• 17:02
  Morgan Wright: So Bill, I would say we're not really geared towards doing that.
• 17:04
  That's more like open source intelligence and looking at all sources and stuff.
• 17:08
  But I will tell you though, one of the ways you can address it.
• 17:11
  But here's the problem.
• 17:12
  I wouldn't say it's easier than it was 20 years ago.
• 17:14
  I, we have more data than we had 20 years ago, and that leads to what
• 17:17
  I called informational entropy.
• 17:19
  In other words, we can get so much information, we're drowning in it.
• 17:22
  The mind can only hold four to six concepts at a time.
• 17:26
  the mind is for having ideas not holding them.
• 17:28
  And I tell people, my mind's like a bookshelf.
• 17:29
  It went on, another book falls off.
• 17:32
  But the question, that you're talking about is how do you derive
• 17:36
  intent or behavior out of posts when you're, when yeah, I mean, how many?
• 17:44
  Not just petabytes, but zetabytes of data is out there
• 17:48
  that you have to comb through.
• 17:50
  So I would tell people, it's always easy looking backwards to connect the dots.
• 17:53
  It's very difficult.
• 17:55
  To connect the dots looking forward, right?
• 17:57
  So somebody would say, but you know what, that boils down to that a lot of times
• 18:00
  that boils down to if you're online and you see behavior like this, is there a
• 18:06
  structured way for somebody to report their concerns that's coordinated,
• 18:09
  like in a fusion center or a threat center to where that can be looked at?
• 18:13
  We know that in Parkland, we know that in uh, some other cases they said,
• 18:16
  Hey, well the FBI had this information.
• 18:20
  I'm not gonna knock the FBI, I don't know exactly what the case is, but I
• 18:23
  will tell you if I'm a detective and I'm sitting there and you give me 20
• 18:26
  volumes on a cold case homicide, and you say, Hey, I want you up to speed on this
• 18:29
  by tomorrow morning, not gonna happen.
• 18:31
  There's no way I can hold 20 volumes in my head.
• 18:34
  So we have to look at how does.
• 18:35
  How does artificial intelligence properly constrained?
• 18:38
  You gotta put the guardrails on it.
• 18:39
  That's why a highway has boundaries.
• 18:42
  You know, you, you just can't be just riding, driving all over the place.
• 18:45
  But we have to be very structured about how we do this.
• 18:47
  But I think there's ways that's more intelligence analysis.
• 18:51
  and, and there are products out there that do that we're more focused on
• 18:54
  for crimes that have been committed.
• 18:57
  and you're looking to develop leads on that.
• 18:59
  How do we help you generate, those.
• 19:02
  Craig Floyd: Morgan, what's the website people can go to?
• 19:05
  I mean, this is fascinating.
• 19:07
  You want the public's help?
• 19:08
  Uh, where, where can they go to get started Here?
• 19:12
  Morgan Wright: OpenUnsolved.org.
• 19:14
  And now look guys, it's a work in progress.
• 19:16
  'cause right now we're of all volunteer organization.
• 19:18
  I've been doing this for a year.
• 19:20
  Longer than that, but I've been working without pay for a year
• 19:24
  trying to get this up and running.
• 19:25
  So, um, we're, while the website looks nice, there's a couple things
• 19:29
  we need to fix, so judge us on that yet, but judge us by the results we're
• 19:33
  getting where every agency I talk to.
• 19:36
  So any agency, whether you're law enforcement or citizen,
• 19:38
  if you go to OpenUnsolved.org.
• 19:40
  You can start as a citizen, you can start registering and in fact, one
• 19:43
  of the things I've already done, I've got a online guide for law enforcement
• 19:47
  and an online guide for citizens.
• 19:48
  So you can, you'll be able to click it and it will show you, Hey,
• 19:51
  this is how you use our platform.
• 19:53
  This is what you do.
• 19:54
  Now, what I'd love to do, Craig, this is one of the things we're working on.
• 19:58
  Once you get to a mobile app, for me, that's the game changer.
• 20:01
  That's the killer thing that we need right now.
• 20:03
  Because how do people live their life?
• 20:04
  If I ask you guys to show me your phone, I guarantee you your phone's within
• 20:08
  arm's reach right, are pretty close.
• 20:09
  So, but everybody has one of these things.
• 20:11
  This is how they prefer to do it.
• 20:13
  So while we're web based, right now, we're moving to mobile.
• 20:17
  Dennis Collins: That's great.
• 20:17
  Craig Floyd: Hey, I wanna shift back.
• 20:19
  I, I, while I got you, I mean
• 20:21
  Morgan Wright: Yeah.
• 20:22
  Craig Floyd: you, you've been so involved and immersed in the Nancy Guthrie case.
• 20:25
  One thing that's always troubled me, and, and I know we've
• 20:28
  talked about it a little bit.
• 20:30
  You, you got one guy.
• 20:32
  in the video, the ring camera, uh, video, and we've all seen it.
• 20:37
  I just can't imagine if this was a planned abduction, that there wouldn't
• 20:42
  have been more than one person involved because you've got a, a woman that, you
• 20:46
  know, you're, she may be incapacitated, she not real mobile to begin with.
• 20:51
  We understand.
• 20:52
  wouldn't this person that we keep seeing in the video have had an
• 20:56
  accomplice or maybe more than one?
• 20:57
  What's your thought?
• 20:59
  Morgan Wright: That's one thing I said, if you have an abduction, if it,
• 21:02
  if this is not a burglar gone wrong, but a targeted abduction, then on
• 21:05
  an abduction you need three things.
• 21:07
  Entry control, exit.
• 21:08
  And so one of those things on control is how do you control that person?
• 21:11
  Look, you might be, I remember when I was a state trooper, I
• 21:16
  was, uh, you know, applied for it.
• 21:18
  I was pretty physically fit.
• 21:19
  I was coming outta the police department.
• 21:20
  I was in the Army Reserves, you know.
• 21:23
  But to drag 150 pound dummy, that's dead weight.
• 21:26
  It's not that easy.
• 21:27
  So, um, that's what leads me to say, if this was targeted deduction, then
• 21:30
  where's the logistics for exit, which means a vehicle, And so now there is
• 21:36
  some video out there and you, I think a lot of people are assuming too much,
• 21:39
  but there are some indications in one of the videos that they show that it looks
• 21:42
  like there might have been a mobile phone screen or something like that flashing,
• 21:46
  which might indicate a second person.
• 21:47
  But I tell people the video, we don't have all the video.
• 21:51
  And we don't even know what law enforcement knows, but I would say
• 21:54
  if I were looking at this again, just using first principles, it
• 21:57
  doesn't matter what you believe, it's matters what must be true,
• 22:00
  Dennis Collins: right?
• 22:01
  Morgan Wright: There are enough signals to indicate that as a targeted abduction
• 22:04
  because how else would that person, um.
• 22:08
  Because what I would expect to see inside the house, and I, some
• 22:10
  people say, you're sounding morbid.
• 22:11
  No, I'm clinical.
• 22:12
  It's an investigator, right?
• 22:13
  You gotta just compartmentalize.
• 22:15
  But if she was, if she was somehow subdued and left in the house and
• 22:19
  already bleeding, you would expect to find a puddle of blood where
• 22:22
  she was laying as the offender went and got a vehicle of if he's, uh,
• 22:26
  acting solo and then bring her out.
• 22:28
  So I would say, Craig, if inside the house, there's no evidence of
• 22:31
  that, but it looks like the injury started in the house and went right
• 22:34
  out and went right to a vehicle then.
• 22:36
  I would say you, you must be, you have to consider the possibility
• 22:40
  that there's a second person.
• 22:41
  It's too tough to do a targeted abduction.
• 22:44
  And we were talking about, I think, you might've said something, bill, but, so one
• 22:48
  of the things I did to test this, I had, I, I got a hold of Pete Ferelli, if you
• 22:52
  guys, some of you guys might know Pete.
• 22:53
  Pete was one of the whistleblowers on Fast and Furious, um, was an ad at a TF.
• 22:58
  He's written a book called The Deadly Path.
• 22:59
  He's a buddy of mine, but Pete was an a TF agent.
• 23:02
  In Phoenix operating, covering Phoenix in Tucson, they, investigated home invasions.
• 23:07
  So we talked about home invasions.
• 23:09
  How do they work?
• 23:09
  You know, what mechanics are there?
• 23:11
  'cause a home invader, it's about forced entry, it's about surprise.
• 23:15
  They, they come to control, they have mechanisms for control.
• 23:18
  and we talked about express kidnappings.
• 23:20
  And one of my other friends, Aaron Graham, that was with DEA, he actually had a
• 23:25
  bounty, a half a million dollar bounty put on him while he was down in Mexico and
• 23:28
  they had to move him across the border.
• 23:30
  So he was in Tucson.
• 23:31
  Actually ran into some of the cartel guys.
• 23:33
  So we talked about, to your point, bill, after you were talking about
• 23:35
  earlier, how does the cartel operate?
• 23:37
  We kind of disabused people of that.
• 23:39
  'cause the cartel doesn't deal in crypto and all this other BS of
• 23:44
  these quote ransom communications.
• 23:46
  I think that was a big distraction.
• 23:48
  So, bring it all back.
• 23:50
  I, Craig, if I were investigating this, I would leave my mind open to the
• 23:53
  possibility that you've got a second person, which means you may not have
• 23:57
  that person's DNA at the crime scene at all if they were inside the vehicle.
• 24:01
  Craig Floyd: Right.
• 24:01
  Morgan Wright: You know, at all.
• 24:02
  So, um,
• 24:03
  Craig Floyd: was there any evidence of forced entry?
• 24:05
  I, I haven't heard any.
• 24:07
  Morgan Wright: The only thing I remember seeing is Fox News had a drone that they
• 24:10
  flew around the house, and so I think there were two doors and three windows,
• 24:14
  or maybe three doors and two windows.
• 24:16
  I don't remember.
• 24:16
  But, but they flew around it and they looked at it.
• 24:19
  there were no signs of forced entry anywhere now.
• 24:22
  but then you back up from that going, okay, forced entry.
• 24:25
  It doesn't, It doesn't eliminate the possibilities that one of the
• 24:29
  doors was accidentally left unlocked.
• 24:30
  Look, I'm pretty careful about locking my doors at night, but there's
• 24:34
  sometimes I come down in the morning and I open up my garage door to take
• 24:37
  out, 'cause I got two cats, so I gotta scoop the litter and I walk out and
• 24:39
  I left my garage door open all night.
• 24:41
  I'm going, you know,
• 24:43
  Dennis Collins: oh my.
• 24:44
  Morgan Wright: And look, the other thing too is.
• 24:45
  The other thing guys, she's 84.
• 24:48
  she was out at her, at her, uh, daughter's and son-in-law's house
• 24:52
  for four and a half, five hours, probably came back pretty tired.
• 24:55
  Is it possible that somebody at that age would have missed locking a door?
• 25:00
  that's one of the things I think that's a hypothesis you have to consider.
• 25:03
  Dennis Collins: Yeah.
• 25:04
  Craig Floyd: What about in the video?
• 25:05
  We see, uh, uh, the film showing the intruder with a backpack on
• 25:11
  most of the time, but then we see another video shot of seemingly the
• 25:16
  same guy, but without the backpack.
• 25:18
  I mean, was this two different times that he came to that door?
• 25:22
  Was, did he just take off the backpack?
• 25:24
  I mean, what's your theory on that?
• 25:27
  Morgan Wright: One of the things we're missing, and this is why it was
• 25:29
  so tough, people thought, well, why couldn't they get this video earlier?
• 25:32
  Well, Nancy Guthrie had no subscription.
• 25:36
  but what a lot of people don't recognize in your terms of service on your video
• 25:39
  camera, and I've got, I've got a similar setup, uh, I've got ring doorbells
• 25:45
  and stuff, but I have a subscription.
• 25:46
  But what you don't realize on there is they collect, even if you don't have an
• 25:49
  account, they're still collecting video when a sensor goes off or a trigger.
• 25:53
  But what happens is when that video comes in, a lot of times it's not,
• 25:57
  like, doesn't go into your account because you don't have an account.
• 25:59
  So they had to search.
• 26:00
  I said it's like, it's the equivalent of using a match to find a needle in the
• 26:04
  middle of a forest when there's no moon.
• 26:07
  it's the fact that they found it is, I mean, just a miracle.
• 26:11
  But the reason I say that, Craig, is a lot of times when you look at
• 26:14
  stuff, there's metadata on there, date timestamp, you know, when it happened.
• 26:19
  What we don't know about this, although it appears to be similar,
• 26:22
  uh, you look at the clothing and you look at stuff, it's similar.
• 26:25
  and so that's the question.
• 26:26
  But again, if let's do a hypothesis and say maybe that's the same person, and
• 26:32
  they were standing outside 10 minutes before that 1 47 that we saw them, you
• 26:36
  know, approaching with the backpack on, what else does that tell you?
• 26:40
  They weren't there for 47 minutes.
• 26:41
  They were there for 57 minutes, then almost an hour.
• 26:44
  That all that tells me is that person then.
• 26:47
  Reinforces what I believe is that their behavior shows that they're
• 26:50
  extremely comfortable, that it was less about a burglary and more about
• 26:53
  some kind of a targeted operation.
• 26:56
  so yeah, we raised more questions, but which is fine.
• 27:00
  But at some point we have to start eliminating the impossible.
• 27:03
  Like that guy can't be in Tucson, Arizona, and Chicago at the same time.
• 27:09
  That's physically impossible.
• 27:10
  So at some point, reality has to start taking some chess pieces off the board.
• 27:14
  'cause what we wanna do is collapse all these things, test them to failure and
• 27:17
  end up with fewer things to focus on.
• 27:19
  But the problem with cops, it's like collecting stuff.
• 27:21
  Well, you never want to throw a piece of paper away.
• 27:23
  You never, you know.
• 27:24
  Might be important.
• 27:25
  Pretty soon you got 20 boxes of stuff and that's, that's
• 27:27
  what, that's the information.
• 27:29
  Entropy.
• 27:29
  You've got so much stuff in there, you can't process it, so sometimes you
• 27:33
  gotta reduce the amount of information you look at, but we don't, the
• 27:36
  biggest thing we're missing on that, Craig, is the date and timestamp.
• 27:38
  We don't know if it happened after 1 47 or before 1 47.
• 27:42
  We don't know if it happened after they left the house and that person now
• 27:45
  took off his backpack 'cause he is got somebody in the car controlling Nancy
• 27:49
  and he is trying to make sure, you know, they didn't leave anything behind.
• 27:52
  Uh, Dennis Rader, the BTK killer, uh, he talked about what he
• 27:55
  called his right hand rule.
• 27:56
  He'd get done to the crime scene.
• 27:57
  What he would do, he'd follow, he'd start on the right hand side and work his way
• 28:00
  around to make sure he left nothing there.
• 28:03
  We don't know what they were doing, but
• 28:05
  Craig Floyd: one, one of the things that they said will probably solve
• 28:08
  this case eventually, who knows?
• 28:11
  was the reward, alright?
• 28:12
  For a long time, se a couple weeks, maybe more, they had a $50,000 reward,
• 28:19
  for any information that seems.
• 28:21
  Like a very puny amount for a case of this magnitude.
• 28:25
  And then all of a sudden, more recently the family, I guess, uh,
• 28:29
  added a million dollar reward, which seemed, you know, like maybe this'll
• 28:34
  be the, the key to solving the case.
• 28:36
  But even that, uh, doesn't seem to have worked, uh, why
• 28:40
  the Puny Award for so long.
• 28:42
  And do you have confidence that maybe this million dollar reward might,
• 28:47
  be the key to solving the case?
• 28:51
  Morgan Wright: Yeah.
• 28:51
  You know, I think part of the issue upfront with the reward the size
• 28:54
  it was, is they didn't want to,
• 28:58
  stir up a, a bunch of fake tips because if it was too big too soon, I think,
• 29:04
  you know, maybe part of their thinking was we would just get a lot of.
• 29:07
  Crap in here we have to deal with.
• 29:09
  So, but 50,000 of, yeah, considering the notoriety of the case doesn't,
• 29:14
  seems like it's not enough, but 50,000 is more than, if you look
• 29:17
  at the FBI top 10, it's 25,000.
• 29:21
  Now the rewards for justice, you've got other stuff.
• 29:23
  US marshals, like this case here, that's only 15,000.
• 29:27
  Apparently the marshals don't have the budget.
• 29:28
  The FBI does.
• 29:29
  So, but, but now, but the, but the language is different now because.
• 29:35
  I think the people, the other reason people looked at it,
• 29:37
  it's $50,000 from the FBI.
• 29:40
  Now there's a little, there's a problem there because.
• 29:43
  Let's assume that you have no money, you're a debt.
• 29:45
  A hundred thousand, 50,000 would be like a big, a lifeline.
• 29:49
  But it says for the, uh, arrest and conviction of somebody, you might
• 29:53
  wait three years for that money,
• 29:55
  Dennis Collins: right?
• 29:57
  Morgan Wright: But now, then what?
• 29:58
  The family said, it's a million dollars for the return of her body.
• 30:01
  We're not, not, we're not talking prosecution now we're talking a million
• 30:04
  dollars for the return of their mother.
• 30:07
  Which is basically, you know, they, they tell us where the body is.
• 30:10
  That's different.
• 30:12
  why a million dollars hasn't moved the needle?
• 30:16
  I don't know.
• 30:18
  there's, reason to believe that some people might think is that this is,
• 30:23
  it's, look, it's very tough to get away with the kidnapping anymore.
• 30:26
  Uh, the FBI's got it down to an art and science.
• 30:28
  You, they, well, they could use crypto guys after nine 11 and
• 30:32
  after a bunch of other stuff.
• 30:34
  Tracing crypto is not as hard as what you think.
• 30:36
  so it can be done.
• 30:38
  and so there may be reluctance to do that.
• 30:42
  I think what's gonna break the case, it's gonna be somebody
• 30:46
  sometime walking along and finding.
• 30:50
  Skeletonized remains.
• 30:51
  It's gonna be somebody that's finding something in a building.
• 30:54
  Dennis Collins: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Morgan Wright: Uh, I don't know that the, I mean, I looked at
• 30:56
  all these cases and sometimes, it's not the reward that does it.
• 31:00
  It's a citizen just happens upon it, you know, and turns it in.
• 31:04
  Look, Craig, I like you.
• 31:05
  You're a great friend, but for a million dollars, dude, I'd
• 31:08
  dime you out in a heartbeat.
• 31:11
  Wow.
• 31:12
  There we go.
• 31:13
  We got it on tape.
• 31:16
  Don't rob a bank with me, man.
• 31:17
  I go down easy.
• 31:18
  You gimme a million dollars, like, okay, I love it.
• 31:21
  Bill Erfurth: I guess everybody has their price, huh?
• 31:24
  Morgan Wright: Yeah.
• 31:25
  Dennis Collins: So let me ask you, Morgan.
• 31:26
  Yeah, go ahead, Dennis.
• 31:28
  If you, all of a sudden were handed this case.
• 31:31
  Okay, Morgan, here's the case.
• 31:33
  You're in charge.
• 31:34
  You've got 72 hours to get this thing back on track.
• 31:39
  What would you do?
• 31:41
  Morgan Wright: Well, first of all, I'll tell you why.
• 31:42
  72 hours.
• 31:43
  How do you know?
• 31:44
  72 hours is the magic number.
• 31:45
  I'd start pushing back right from the start, But I know people, how much
• 31:48
  Dennis Collins: time do you need?
• 31:50
  Morgan Wright: I don't know.
• 31:51
  Here's, here's my response.
• 31:52
  I've lost my keys.
• 31:53
  How long will it take me to find them?
• 31:55
  I don't know.
• 31:56
  Yeah.
• 31:56
  So I think that's the problem you don't wanna do.
• 31:58
  'cause if you, if you give, and don't, don't get me wrong, Dennis, I'm
• 32:01
  just pushing back in a friendly way.
• 32:02
  But my response would be, if you tell me I have to have something done in 72 hours,
• 32:06
  which shortcut do you want me to take?
• 32:07
  That may affect the case.
• 32:08
  Right.
• 32:09
  Okay.
• 32:09
  Dennis Collins: All right.
• 32:10
  Morgan Wright: So, you give me the case.
• 32:11
  Here's what I would do.
• 32:12
  I'm gonna bring in a fresh set of eyes.
• 32:13
  People who've never, I want people who don't know squat about this case.
• 32:17
  Right.
• 32:17
  And we're gonna do what I said.
• 32:18
  We're gonna, we're gonna, we're not just gonna re rehabilitate the narrative.
• 32:21
  We're gonna dismantle everything.
• 32:23
  Forget what the news says.
• 32:25
  Forget what's out there.
• 32:25
  We're gonna dismantle this case and start.
• 32:28
  And it's more than just putting a fresh set of eyes.
• 32:30
  Like in a cold case, we're gonna make use of advanced technology.
• 32:33
  We're gonna start feeding documents into a system.
• 32:35
  We're gonna start, we're gonna have it start doing the brain work for us, right?
• 32:38
  And what we're gonna do is start from ground one.
• 32:40
  There's another technique too.
• 32:41
  Have you guys ever heard of the technique called Winthroping?
• 32:45
  Dennis Collins: No.
• 32:46
  Morgan Wright: So it was actually developed by, I had some friends in New
• 32:49
  Scotland Yard who taught this to me.
• 32:50
  The, new Scotland yard and MI six developed this technique when they
• 32:54
  were doing operations against the IRA and what they would be looking
• 32:58
  for in the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
• 32:59
  They'd be looking for where, where.
• 33:01
  Weapon caches were, and so rather than thinking about how a cop
• 33:05
  would think, you have to think how would an IRA operative think?
• 33:07
  Or how would a spy think?
• 33:09
  Right?
• 33:09
  So Winthrop is putting your eyes in there.
• 33:11
  So the other thing I would do is I would get people in
• 33:13
  there, it's like red teaming.
• 33:15
  When you, you have an opposing force, you know, red teaming.
• 33:17
  I would get somebody in there that says.
• 33:20
  You think we, I I'd reenact the whole thing.
• 33:23
  'cause you, what you wanna do is you wanna test time.
• 33:25
  'cause we have videos of the car being over here a mile or two miles away.
• 33:28
  Somebody saw a car going by.
• 33:30
  Right?
• 33:30
  We wanna test all of these things, test them for time, for space, for reality.
• 33:35
  If it, if it, violates the laws of physics and violates reality.
• 33:38
  The first thing you do is you get rid of it.
• 33:40
  You don't keep it.
• 33:41
  That's the problem with entropy.
• 33:42
  You put too much in there.
• 33:43
  So I would start getting rid of stuff.
• 33:45
  And it's Darwinism, right?
• 33:46
  Sometimes you gotta thin the herd and only the S strong survive.
• 33:49
  Only the strongest hypothesis survive.
• 33:52
  And I would rebuild the case from the ground up, and I would say it's
• 33:54
  gonna take as long as it takes.
• 33:55
  We understand the importance of it, but um, you can, you can get
• 33:59
  it right or you can get it fast.
• 34:00
  Which one do you want?
• 34:02
  Dennis Collins: Right, That's, great.
• 34:03
  Yeah.
• 34:03
  That's, uh,
• 34:05
  Craig Floyd: Hey, Dennis, uh,
• 34:06
  Dennis Collins: how do we get you in charge?
• 34:07
  Morgan?
• 34:08
  Craig Floyd: Yeah.
• 34:08
  Yeah.
• 34:08
  Dennis and Bill.
• 34:09
  Uh, remember
• 34:10
  Morgan Wright: that, remember that million dollars?
• 34:12
  There
• 34:12
  Craig Floyd: you go.
• 34:13
  Dennis Collins: That's a good start, huh?
• 34:15
  Craig Floyd: But I would say this, I, I mean, Morgan and I haven't spoken
• 34:19
  in a while and I had forgotten his brilliance, his passion, please.
• 34:24
  Um, his, his ability to articulate, you know, uh, things that are
• 34:28
  very complex, Thanks to people like Morgan of technology, law
• 34:36
  enforcement is gonna advance to places that we've never been before.
• 34:40
  And that excites me because people say, you know, we, we now have fewer officers.
• 34:45
  How are we gonna do more with less?
• 34:48
  And I think Morgan is telling us it's possible.
• 34:51
  And it's here.
• 34:52
  And, uh, thanks to people like Morgan and, and the technology, uh,
• 34:56
  experts like him, um, we're, we're doing okay in law enforcement and
• 35:00
  I think this place is gonna be a lot safer in the, in the future.
• 35:03
  Morgan Wright: Well, hey, Craig, just to build on your point real quick, a lot
• 35:06
  of people don't realize compared to nine 11, New York City has what, 10, 15,000
• 35:10
  fewer officers than they did on nine 11,
• 35:12
  Dennis Collins: right?
• 35:12
  Craig Floyd: Yeah.
• 35:13
  It's crazy, but
• 35:14
  Morgan Wright: I
• 35:14
  Craig Floyd: mean, we're doing well.
• 35:16
  Dennis Collins: Well, what you've talked about today is exciting.
• 35:18
  I mean, I, we'd love to have you back and, talk more about it.
• 35:22
  I mean, the national
• 35:24
  Morgan Wright: Well here, Dennis, I'm gonna give you the offer, we'll
• 35:25
  put it out to everybody listening.
• 35:26
  I told you my project, I talked to Craig about this.
• 35:28
  I wanna put together a project of all unsolved line-of-duty deaths, right?
• 35:32
  I wanna make the project on the National Center.
• 35:35
  I want to, we'll cooperate with you guys.
• 35:37
  I want to get the word out because I want people to get into this system.
• 35:40
  Guys, no money.
• 35:41
  It doesn't cost you anything.
• 35:43
  It costs you about five minutes to set up an account and put in five
• 35:46
  to six locations that are relevant in your life, and then guess what?
• 35:49
  You sit back and wait for the magic to happen.
• 35:52
  So, I mean, that would be one thing I would do immediately with you guys
• 35:55
  that could have, first of all, it speaks to all of our hearts, right?
• 35:59
  It speaks to my, fortunately my friend is solved, they made the arrest.
• 36:02
  But, uh, all of those unsolved cases, I wanna, I wanna either a, I want a
• 36:06
  clearance or I want an arrest in all of these cases that are still unsolved.
• 36:09
  Dennis Collins: So how do people get involved?
• 36:12
  Morgan Wright: OpenUnsolved.org.
• 36:13
  There is a law enforcement side.
• 36:14
  There is a citizen side.
• 36:15
  Go to the citizen side, create an account.
• 36:18
  It's very simple.
• 36:19
  It'll say, you know, create an account.
• 36:22
  you, your email.
• 36:24
  We don't collect any personal information.
• 36:25
  In other words, Dennis, its you create an account.
• 36:27
  We just need an email so we know where to email tips to you at.
• 36:30
  And that's really it, right?
• 36:30
  No phone number, no date of birth, no credit card, no social, nothing.
• 36:34
  We don't need anything from you.
• 36:36
  Got it.
• 36:36
  And I want people to understand too, we keep that information
• 36:38
  private that is never shared with law enforcement, never shared.
• 36:42
  It's like Crime stoppers.
• 36:43
  Can you imagine Crime Stoppers having caller id?
• 36:46
  An anonymous caller calls up and you call 'em back and say, Hey,
• 36:48
  I forgot to ask you one question.
• 36:50
  Dennis Collins: Uhhuh.
• 36:51
  Yeah.
• 36:51
  Right.
• 36:53
  Morgan Wright: And I've, but I've actually had cops say, well, could they?
• 36:55
  I said, no.
• 36:56
  Look, I was a cop.
• 36:57
  I ran the crime stopper's phone on my desk.
• 37:00
  I no way.
• 37:01
  I understand the value of it.
• 37:03
  the, thing that would kill our program off faster than anything
• 37:05
  else is for the public to under, for the public to believe or find
• 37:09
  out that we're sharing information, their information, absolutely.
• 37:12
  With law enforcement.
• 37:13
  So there is an absolute bright line down the middle.
• 37:16
  There's will never be.
• 37:17
  And now if we're served legal process and says, you're compelled to provide this.
• 37:21
  Only to the extent possible, and we'll fight that because that's
• 37:25
  the only way this system works.
• 37:26
  It's built on trust, and if you don't have the trust of the public.
• 37:29
  You know, and this is what we've dealt with in law enforcement
• 37:31
  for a long time, right.
• 37:32
  I'm speaking to the choir here.
• 37:34
  The public, it's PE in principles of policing, the PO public
• 37:37
  have to believe in the police.
• 37:39
  Absolutely.
• 37:39
  And the police are the public.
• 37:40
  And the public or the police.
• 37:41
  Right.
• 37:41
  We're both doing the same job.
• 37:43
  Just one of us gets paid to give full time and attention to duties
• 37:45
  which are incumbent upon everybody.
• 37:48
  So this is a partnership between the police and the
• 37:49
  public to solve a huge problem.
• 37:51
  Oh, by the way, one quick stat.
• 37:53
  This is the other thing that drives it home.
• 37:54
  We're all paying a crime tax.
• 37:57
  How, if I ask you what is the cost of crime each year to the us and
• 38:01
  that means the cost of homicides, the cost of kidnappings, the cost of
• 38:04
  families, victims, lost wages, funeral expenses, courts, corrections, law
• 38:08
  enforcement budgets, I mean everything.
• 38:10
  If you replacing stolen property, putting a bolt on a door 'cause you got broken
• 38:15
  into, what is the cost of crime each year?
• 38:19
  Bill Erfurth: Billions.
• 38:20
  Pretty sub substantial.
• 38:23
  Morgan Wright: If our, if the cost of crime were a GDP, it would be the
• 38:26
  fourth largest country in the world.
• 38:27
  The United States pays $5.7 trillion a year in a crime tax,
• 38:32
  Dennis Collins: 5.7 trillion trillion
• 38:34
  Morgan Wright: 5.7.
• 38:35
  I've got the, I've talked to the professor who did the study, it's
• 38:37
  called the aggregate cost of crime.
• 38:39
  Yeah.
• 38:39
  Um, 5.7 trillion every homicide.
• 38:42
  On average costs, the costs society $10.9 million.
• 38:46
  When you look at 17,000 homicides a year, which is what we've been averaging
• 38:50
  up to lately, the cost of homicides is more than the combined budgets.
• 38:55
  Just homicides alone is more than the combined budget of all federal,
• 38:58
  tribal, state, and local law enforcement agencies in the United States.
• 39:02
  Dennis Collins: Wow, you're, that's staggering.
• 39:03
  Morgan Wright: That's just homicides.
• 39:04
  And we have 300,000 unsolved homicides.
• 39:09
  Dennis Collins: Wow.
• 39:09
  Great.
• 39:10
  Craig Floyd: Well, we gotta do better to stop those murders.
• 39:12
  That's the key.
• 39:13
  Yeah.
• 39:15
  Morgan Wright: but it's getting better, Greg.
• 39:16
  Let me, pile on that point.
• 39:17
  I, I, I'm not being political.
• 39:18
  A lot of people talk about Trump, whatever, but I will tell you, how do you.
• 39:24
  How do you not appreciate the fact is that we have the lowest
• 39:26
  homicide rate in 125 years.
• 39:28
  How many people do not have to?
• 39:30
  I've made that knock on the door with both accidents and murders.
• 39:33
  How many people do not have to get knock on that door to be delivered?
• 39:36
  The worst news they've ever gonna receive in their life?
• 39:39
  And how much has that saved society, not just emotionally, but financially, right?
• 39:43
  We're paying less for crime because there's less crime.
• 39:47
  and so, I mean, just for me, the fact that we have the lowest homicide
• 39:49
  rate, that's a good place to start.
• 39:52
  and we, we should take advantage of it.
• 39:53
  That's why we're trying to, how can we help keep that down?
• 39:57
  How can we help solve some of these unsolved cases and
• 40:00
  how can we help give people.
• 40:02
  A way to part how, like how do you get involved without being involved?
• 40:06
  This is a way for citizens to get involved without being involved.
• 40:08
  I don't have to be involved in the case.
• 40:10
  Dennis Collins: I like
• 40:10
  Morgan Wright: that.
• 40:10
  And lemme tell you, victims families all the time say we wanna do something, but
• 40:14
  we feel like we're getting in the way.
• 40:15
  Or the cops don't want us there.
• 40:16
  What can we do?
• 40:17
  They can hand out flyers all they want, but that doesn't scale, right?
• 40:20
  This helps you scale.
• 40:22
  Dennis Collins: Right.
• 40:22
  Morgan Wright: You know, you tell three people, it's like, it's like Amway.
• 40:24
  If you remember the days of Amway.
• 40:25
  Craig, if you get three and those three people get three, we got 27.
• 40:29
  Pretty soon we're all retired.
• 40:30
  Living on a beach.
• 40:30
  Right.
• 40:30
  But that's the network effect.
• 40:32
  tell people, the more dots we have in a system, the more dots we can connect.
• 40:37
  Craig Floyd: Great point.
• 40:38
  Dennis Collins: Yeah.
• 40:39
  Morgan.
• 40:39
  Thank you Dennis.
• 40:40
  Yeah, I, I, we could go on and on and, uh, I know we, we, we, uh, we will try
• 40:45
  to have you back because there's so much to talk about, but thank you for today.
• 40:50
  This has been very informative, not just about Guthrie, but uh,
• 40:54
  Billy ask about, what about you?
• 40:57
  And I'm glad we got that out there.
• 40:58
  'cause the work you're doing is very important.
• 41:01
  And it's, gonna make a difference.
• 41:04
  It probably already has and it will continue, so
• 41:07
  Morgan Wright: I hope so.
• 41:07
  And that's what I do.
• 41:08
  I, I've got a Substack and Craig alluded to it earlier and I'm, I'm glad to share.
• 41:12
  And
• 41:13
  Dennis Collins: what's your
• 41:13
  publication guys?
• 41:14
  What's
• 41:15
  Morgan Wright: your public?
• 41:15
  It's called CrimeReconstructed.substack.com.
• 41:18
  And that's where I do, it's, it's basically, actually, I'm working on a
• 41:21
  book, but the title informs what it is.
• 41:22
  It's called Crime Reconstructed Rebuilding Enduring Cold Cases Through First
• 41:26
  Principles and Modern Intelligence.
• 41:28
  This is where.
• 41:29
  This is where we strip away.
• 41:30
  It's not true crime.
• 41:31
  If you guys are coming for true crime and all the breathless stuff, that's not me.
• 41:35
  I'm not doing this for clickbait, right?
• 41:36
  We're not.
• 41:36
  We're not the murder monetizing media.
• 41:38
  This is about how do we, train people to recognize narratives, to discount
• 41:44
  them, to realize, to get to the heart of the matter and strip away everything
• 41:48
  right and rebuild it from the ground up.
• 41:49
  Dennis Collins: Say the name,
• 41:50
  Morgan Wright: appreciate it.
• 41:50
  Dennis Collins: Say the name of your substack again.
• 41:52
  Morgan Wright: Crime reconstructed.
• 41:55
  Dennis Collins: Crime reconstructed.
• 41:56
  Okay.
• 41:57
  I'm definitely gonna put it on my favorites list.
• 41:59
  And, uh,
• 42:00
  Craig Floyd: I've already subscribed.
• 42:01
  Yeah.
• 42:02
  Dennis Collins: And I, and I wanna to, uh, remind our listeners, our viewers, our
• 42:06
  audience, if you enjoyed hearing anything Morgan had to say today, make a comment.
• 42:12
  Okay.
• 42:13
  We love your comments and if you disagree with Morgan.
• 42:16
  he's hard to disagree with.
• 42:18
  'cause this dude has all, oh
• 42:19
  Morgan Wright: no, look, first Amendment baby.
• 42:21
  Tell me what you don't like.
• 42:22
  I'm more than happy to, I take constructive criticism all the time.
• 42:25
  Dennis Collins: Well, let's hear it guys.
• 42:27
  We would love to hear some because he, he said a lot of important things
• 42:30
  today, not just about the Guthrie case, but about the future of where he's
• 42:34
  trying to take these unsolved cases.
• 42:37
  So let's comment on this.
• 42:39
  Hit.
• 42:39
  Subscribe, like, or follow.
• 42:41
  We, we love it when you do that.
• 42:43
  I wanna remind you, this podcast, heroes Behind the Badge is brought
• 42:47
  to you by Citizens Behind the Badge.
• 42:49
  Citizens Behind the Badge is the leading voice of the American
• 42:52
  people in support of the men.
• 42:55
  Women of law enforcement, you can get involved with us very easily.
• 42:59
  Just like in Morgan's case, it's a simple click of a button.
• 43:02
  CitizensBehindtheBadge.org.
• 43:04
  Dot org, CitizensBehindtheBadge.org.
• 43:08
  There's a whole menu there of what we're all about.
• 43:12
  There's an opportunity to make a donation if you feel that you need to do that, but
• 43:17
  most of all, there's a chance to support.
• 43:19
  The men and women of law enforcement, the people that are putting
• 43:23
  it out there every day for us.
• 43:26
  Thanks again, Morgan Wright.
• 43:28
  This is, uh, the end of this episode of Con of Oh boy.
• 43:32
  That's another podcast of Heroes Behind the Badge.
• 43:35
  Heroes Behind the Badge.
• 43:36
  And we'll be back soon.
• 43:37
  Stay tuned, subscribe so you get notified the next time we release a new episode.
• 43:44
  We'll see you next time.