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Discovering Bitcoin with Jeff Booth · Discovering Bitcoin

0:00
You know, it's funny. Bitcoin teaches you a strange
0:03
relationship with time. It's like the longer you hold
0:06
it, the less rushed you feel. Hard block is built around that
0:11
idea. Steady buying, clear fees, no
0:14
pressure. If you're discovering Bitcoin,
0:16
slowly, hard block makes that easy.
0:21
Yeah, I see the world through an entirely different lens.
0:26
It doesn't just give you confidence, but it gives you
0:29
hope. Take like we're squandering our
0:33
energy, our life force. So Bitcoin is changing that.
0:36
For me, this coin is like it's healing energy.
0:40
It gives you a kind of of a stand feeling, right?
0:48
Well, deep and deep and deep. And the immortal words of the
0:51
doors, The time to hesitate us through.
1:21
Jeff, how's it going, man? Really great, Great to see.
1:25
Great to see you DJ. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's
1:29
it's absolutely brilliant to connect.
1:31
I got to say, I'm sure this isn't the first time you've
1:37
heard this. In fact, I know it isn't because
1:41
I've heard you mention it on a number of pods.
1:44
Not in a gloating or egotistical way, certainly not.
1:48
But the book The Price of Tomorrow and your subsequent
1:53
conversations with people like Preston Fish, Robert Breedlove
1:57
and others has been foundational, I think formative
2:02
in my understanding of not just Bitcoin, but today, You know,
2:09
the world as it is at the moment with respect to economics,
2:16
sociology, everything. And the fact that you've kind of
2:20
just upended effectively a worldview that is so pervasive
2:24
and persistent everywhere, you know, I guess for, you know, not
2:30
necessarily reasons unknown, but yeah, there's sort of like an
2:35
unconscious acceptance of the way things are.
2:38
And you just came along, just tipped that on its head and was
2:41
like, yeah, no, there's another way.
2:43
And in fact, this is the more natural and, dare I say, an
2:49
organic way of, of a system functioning.
2:54
So look, all that is to say, big preamble.
2:57
Thanks man for coming on the pod.
3:00
I. Really, really appreciate it.
3:03
And we'll get into this, I'm sure, But one of the things
3:06
people, people thank me for that and, and, and, and honestly,
3:11
it's just the way I feel. I can't thank those people
3:14
enough. Not not just for saying that,
3:16
how much I've learned from this community along the way too, and
3:20
from all just everyone else's. This, it feels like this, this
3:25
information was always there that we forgot it and then we re
3:31
remember and we get caught in these traps.
3:35
So for, so for me, I don't even feel like it's, I found it or I,
3:40
it's, I've done anything. It's just, it was gnawing at me
3:44
and I had to discover it again for myself.
3:48
And then and and and so so I just actually feel so fortunate
3:54
to be able to do this with all of you doing the same thing.
3:58
I think that's a great point. And I think we might come back
4:01
to that, that that recall, that recall, that remembering
4:06
concept. But let's let's get into it.
4:10
How did you discover Bitcoin? The first time I, I was, it was
4:19
probably 2010, 2011. My, my developers who who I
4:25
really thought highly of in my, in my technology company came to
4:29
me and said this is really important.
4:31
You should take take some time and understand that it could
4:34
change everything. And, and I was too busy with
4:38
building my company and I completely ignored them even
4:41
though I shouldn't have. And, and and so then again and
4:50
life gets busy. Then again in 2017, I in kind of
4:56
that run at that time and all of what was happening at that time,
5:00
I just wanted to, I got curious about a little bit and just kind
5:04
of watched, but I wasn't I was not any way a bitcoiner at that
5:09
time. It was more something I was
5:13
curious about curious about. So I bought I bought some and
5:19
then through writing my book, I became deeper and deeper and
5:25
deeper in in understanding. And so as I was kind of like it
5:30
was taking my breath away, writing my book about what was
5:33
going to happen in the existing financial system budding into
5:39
technology, I, I realized that that that system that we were in
5:46
couldn't resolve the conflict. And I started searching for
5:50
something that could resolve that conflict.
5:52
And that's that that had to be outside of that system and
5:55
immune from that the system. And so that's where that's where
5:59
I first started going a lot deeper into Bitcoin and and that
6:06
path just continued. And there's almost no bottom to
6:10
the rabbit hole. There actually isn't.
6:14
I'm sure of many who have been in this thing longer than I have
6:19
can attest to that, but I certainly haven't found a bottom
6:22
yet. And I've been exploring some
6:24
pretty esoteric realms of light. You know, which is Which is
6:30
interesting because I somehow am able to find deep connections
6:37
and relate them back to Bitcoin, possibly in an irritating way
6:42
for those around me in in meat space at least.
6:46
Maybe not so much online. Everyone's quite gracious.
6:49
Yeah. So, so anybody deeper in
6:52
Bitcoin, those are the most fascinating fun conversations as
6:55
you're in a late night conversations as you just keep
6:58
going. Exactly the interesting thing
7:01
about when you're researching your book, or rather when you
7:05
published the book, wrote the book, is that you only mentioned
7:08
Bitcoin like in a sentence. I think maybe one of us like
7:12
it's, it's very slim. And so clearly it wasn't the
7:17
catalyst for writing the book. There were other there were
7:22
other things that were on your mind.
7:25
Can you remember that aha moment that led to shit?
7:31
I better write this down at some point because this is important.
7:37
About Bitcoin. No, about the price of tomorrow.
7:42
Oh, yeah, the whole the whole concept, the whole framing, it
7:45
was something I was, it was literally annoying at me for
7:48
about 10 years. You, you, you said how you talk
7:52
about Bitcoin everywhere and with friends and didn't meet
7:55
space and just gets annoying. That's what I was talking about,
7:58
these two systems clashing into each other and I couldn't
8:01
believe but, and I was, I was, you'd say I was at the top of
8:06
one of the systems. I was in technology companies
8:10
that if you're in a technology company, then by very nature
8:15
you're in the top of the extractive system and all of the
8:21
people building are too. And you, you're almost living in
8:24
this lie that you're helping the world through the tools and
8:28
stuff that you're building that, that really you're extracting
8:31
more faster. And, and so I was talking about
8:36
this over and over. I remember 1 specific example.
8:39
And kind of one of the leading companies right now in
8:44
artificial and robotics merging of, of those and, and the CEO
8:51
was formerly as the CEO of a quantum company.
8:56
And, and he and he said something on stage and, and he
9:00
said, we're going to create the 1st.
9:05
What do you say the OR we're going to have a trillion dollars
9:10
in revenue a year by removing all labor.
9:15
And, and I said and, and, and I called him, I went and talked to
9:21
him after this through his friend.
9:22
And I said, how do those things go together, right?
9:26
Who pays the for the trillion? And so you had this crazy belief
9:32
that that that you could keep growing forever inside a system,
9:38
that productivity was faster deflation, right.
9:41
And, and so, so I would talk about this all the time.
9:44
I couldn't stop talking about it.
9:47
I can't remember the, the, the bank, the bank governor of
9:51
Canada at the time, because I was also one at one of the top
9:56
companies in Canada and, and well respected and, and at the
10:01
time. So you're in, you're in rooms
10:03
with people that are kind of making policy.
10:05
And I asked, I said, how does this economic system ask against
10:10
something with productivity that is coming and it is and AI is
10:14
coming really fast and it's going to change the world.
10:17
How does this system resolve that conflict?
10:20
And, and he said in a room of about 200 people, 200 CEOs,
10:27
billionaires, just the works, top, top leaders, He said to me,
10:35
he said, what would you have us do?
10:39
And I, and it took my breath away.
10:41
Like it was almost like, hey, little kid, we know better,
10:48
right? What would you have us do?
10:50
And, and, and, and, and I, and, and I went away from that
10:57
thinking I have to write this book because my kids are going
11:01
to grow up in this world that, that I'm not able to explain
11:07
what, what's happening, obviously.
11:08
And nobody has an answer. And they're talking like they
11:12
have answers and they're just talking out there.
11:14
They're they're, they're talking complete nonsense and
11:17
everybody's believing it because because they don't, nobody's
11:21
taking agency. So that's that, that was really
11:25
the that I would say that was impetus.
11:26
I was hoping somebody else would write the book And, and, and I
11:33
and I hoped for about 10 years. Nobody, Nobody.
11:36
There being no one picking up the pen to write.
11:39
Look. I wrote the book.
11:42
You didn't. You were reluctant to put your
11:44
head above the parapet in case you.
11:47
If you're in a room full of people and one of them says you,
11:50
you know, what would you have us do?
11:52
That's a very defensive like thing to say.
11:58
It's almost, almost aggressive, really.
12:03
But yeah, Yeah. And.
12:04
And so it's like it was an attempt to just shut it down.
12:08
It's almost like I can't think about this thing because if I
12:11
think about it to its logical conclusion, you're right, it
12:16
will hurt. My ego is bruised or whatever.
12:22
This, this is kind of the world we live in basically at the
12:26
moment is. Yeah, So DJ, like then that's
12:29
really important because every single person going through
12:32
Bitcoin, understanding Bitcoin, and you probably went through it
12:34
yourself, just like I went through it to, to actually, you
12:39
have to face that truth. And you have to face and facing
12:43
that truth means you've always lived in a lie, all of it.
12:48
And, and we don't want to believe that we were deceived.
12:51
We don't want to believe that we lived in a lie.
12:53
We don't want to believe somebody else had an agency and,
12:56
and, and all of the things that had to come with that.
12:59
It's too hard on our psyche. So our ego protects us from from
13:05
that, from that change, right? And, and and it doesn't actually
13:10
protect us. It locks us into ignoring a
13:14
greater truth and we get stuck and people get stuck.
13:17
So I, I watch it wasn't just the central banker that says this.
13:22
I watch this every day today. That's that's what's happening
13:26
because it's too big a thing for people to face.
13:31
This is like symptomatic all across the world.
13:36
It's it's it's not even a new modern thing that that that
13:41
notion of ego. It is a is it's a protecting
13:44
mechanism effectively in the mind and it helps us to, I
13:48
guess, survive at A at a bare minimum, thrive in certain like
13:56
Fiat. You know, Fiat kind of
13:59
exacerbates ego a lot and tends to allow for it a lot more.
14:03
And so then you get these sort of psychopathic, you know,
14:08
behaviors, I suppose. But there's a quote that I was
14:12
reminded of while you're talking by none other than John Maynard
14:16
Keynes. The, the.
14:18
And he says the practical men who believe themselves to be
14:22
quite exempt from any intellectual influence are
14:26
usually the slaves of some defunct economist, Mad Men in
14:30
authority who hear voices in the air distilling their frenzy from
14:33
some academic scribbler of a few years back.
14:37
The Keynes, of all people who we we prostate ourselves at the
14:43
altar of Fiat, is the one that said that.
14:45
And that's that's kind of that unconscious mind being a slave
14:51
to these defunct economists, of which he is one of them.
14:56
I, I, I, I use that exact quote in the book too, Even though,
15:00
even though that people, even though he is one of those people
15:04
that that I use it's, it's, it's amazing that he, he also wrote
15:09
the economic pops possibilities of our grandchildren where he
15:13
predicted by 2020 he'd be working for 10 or 11 hours a day
15:18
and everybody would share the wealth at a different when he
15:23
was one of the architects of the thing that killed that.
15:28
It's a so, so these inconsistencies, these these
15:32
inconsistencies and us these, these things where we can,
15:38
where, where we'll celebrate somebody or, or, or make them a
15:43
demon and everything else and just see one tiny proportion of,
15:47
of what they're doing. And, and, and to because it's
15:52
simple for our minds to only see that to that label and then
15:58
attach everything to that label. The world doesn't look like that
16:01
at all. The world doesn't look like like
16:05
crazy. Crazy people are often come up
16:10
with genius ideas that that that is always dismissed as crazy
16:15
because most of 90% of the time they're crazy so and vice and
16:20
vice versa. It's, it's, it's, it's nice.
16:24
It's sort of aligns with, I guess the sense of coherence in
16:31
at at scale is kind of how I've been thinking about it.
16:34
It's easier on a Fiat standard like coercion comes naturally.
16:41
And so you can just flippantly say, well, what would you have
16:45
us do? And and dismiss that
16:48
conversation. And there's a there's a
16:51
protection element to the ego. You don't have to align yourself
16:55
with like the coherence of just the natural world.
17:02
And I don't say that it's like other, but I don't see birds
17:06
coercing one another. I mean, well, they they knock
17:09
each other out of trees if one's nesting in there or something
17:12
like that. There is there is aggression and
17:14
violence, but there's not that there's kind of like a natural
17:19
order, you know, it's a little bit of friction arises some
17:21
tension and then it dissipates back-to-back to a baseline for a
17:25
period of time. I guess humans operate on a much
17:30
larger scale in that instance, like we have had incoherence for
17:36
such a long time, which is this, this just been taken as read.
17:41
It's like this. It's just the way things are.
17:45
But underlying that is a system kind of yearning to emerge
17:50
again, like you said before, like remembering you, you kind
17:54
of are just pulling these things out of not thin air, but the,
18:00
the they've, they've been written down in one form or
18:02
another for millennia. And you've just happened upon
18:07
them and framed them in a sort of economic sense, I suppose.
18:13
So was there anything that you can connect the keys thesis of
18:19
the price of Tomorrow and subsequent conversations you've
18:22
had in readings or ideas that you've been exposed to prior to
18:29
all of that? Like that's 10 years to
18:31
percolate, digest these, these ideas, these concepts, these
18:36
notions into a very clear and coherent and quite simple
18:40
thesis, really when you think about it.
18:42
And that's the key point. It's like this thesis, it's you
18:47
don't have to be a genius. You just have to read it and be
18:49
open minded enough to see it. And then you can go like, yeah,
18:52
of course that makes total sense.
18:54
Why? Why?
18:55
So, so, so, so, so similar to, to any, when you have to make
19:02
something complicated for somebody to understand, you
19:05
don't understand it well enough. The, you could and, and through
19:10
that very notion, I've said this on many different podcasts, but
19:13
you could explain the entire economy and how the economy
19:15
works to a 5 year old and it would make perfect sense, right?
19:19
We compete with each other to provide more value to each other
19:22
and we use the things that give us more value.
19:25
That's it. That's the entire economy.
19:27
You don't need anything else. So the more competition that you
19:30
have, the more value crews to society.
19:34
Well, I would go a step further and suggest that I've been
19:37
testing this on my own too. And what I tend to do is take
19:43
the pocket money that gets issued for chores done,
19:47
etcetera. And then I take like 30% of that
19:51
and give it to the other one who is much younger and hasn't
19:56
contributed at all, and just outline the fact that this is
20:00
how it works, you know? Yeah, so, so again, again,
20:04
you're trying to you're trying to use it from existing system.
20:08
I'm just saying this is and and you're trying to explain through
20:11
the existing system. I'm telling you, I'm just that
20:14
stating a very objective truth that that's how the economy
20:19
works and the and, and So what what that forces is is the
20:25
cognitive dissonance as you try to explain how the economy, how
20:29
that isn't what you should shows up.
20:31
Which means you've never lived in a free market that you've
20:33
never lived in in every political system, every, every,
20:37
every idea you have that is not that is the control system and
20:43
all of your ideas are locked in from that.
20:45
And that's why people are scared to ask very simple question
20:49
about economics, because they believe that somebody else knows
20:53
everything and they don't because of, because of what
20:56
they've been told about the math.
20:57
It's hard to understand the way that people work and the
21:00
incentives and, and, and, and all the extra names that you
21:05
make up for quantitative easing or this or that.
21:08
This is just really just complete nonsense.
21:10
It's a Rube Goldberg machine that makes no sense whatsoever.
21:15
But people don't even want to ask a question because they feel
21:18
intimidated to ask a question because they are not smart
21:21
enough. They haven't gone to, they
21:23
haven't gone to school long enough to be able to understand
21:26
what these really bright people who have all the money.
21:30
No. And what it turns out is those
21:32
really, those people are full of shit.
21:35
All of it. It's a complete lie.
21:37
It's a mirage. It's a complete Fugazi,
21:41
absolutely complete, complete nonsense.
21:44
But as you write in the book, the well, it's not a book,
21:46
rather it's an article, the greatest game.
21:49
You quote Buckminster Fuller about, you know, you can't
21:53
change things from the fighting, fighting existing reality.
21:57
You've got to build a new model and sort of step outside.
21:59
And you've, you've mentioned that a number of times, which I
22:02
think is, it's such, it's such a great metaphor and yet it, it's
22:05
so difficult to get it to land squarely with the uninitiated.
22:10
I suppose would, would you know, in terms of like, if you're
22:14
trying to orange pull someone, that is effectively what anyone
22:18
is trying to do when they are trying to orange pull someone is
22:20
get them across the bridge. Like come check it out over
22:23
here. Like, yes, it's difficult, it
22:26
looks treacherous, it's a big fall, etcetera, etcetera.
22:30
But once you're on the other side, there's a bunch of us we
22:33
we just attended a weekend away way, way out in the middle of
22:39
effectively nowhere for these events that that occur
22:45
sporadically around Australia called the Bush Bash and.
22:48
Oh yeah, I've heard of them. It was fantastic.
22:51
I've been to a few, but what happened?
22:53
Actually, on the there's a bit of a tangent, but what happened
22:57
on Sunday night after all of the talks and the event was
23:00
officially over, everyone just gathered in the park.
23:05
There were some younger kids there.
23:06
They had a football. All of a sudden, everyone
23:08
started playing football. Others were cooking food.
23:13
Shout out to Sunny, who was cooking pizza on this portable
23:18
gas pizza oven. It was delicious.
23:21
There were barbecues with meat frying, you know, cooking on
23:24
them. People had brought, one guy had
23:27
brought like a bowl of cherries. You know, there was wine, There
23:30
was beer and anyone that if like if you hadn't brought anything,
23:35
you just can I give you some sats?
23:37
Can I ZAP you some sats and, and, and can we just do that?
23:40
It was literally emergent order hierarchy in emergent order,
23:44
like in practice, it was the most extraordinary thing to be a
23:48
part of. And I was thinking the whole
23:49
time, OK, we can do this clearly.
23:53
Does it scale? How do we scale this at a
23:57
coherent, you know, to maintain coherence at at like a
24:01
civilizational level? I don't know.
24:06
I think Bitcoin is, is, is the thing that helps us to do that,
24:09
to coordinate. It's like a coordination
24:10
mechanism. But it, I, I do wonder like if
24:17
there were, was there, is there a tipping point?
24:19
Maybe there were, if there was 50 more people there, would it
24:23
be as large or, you know, I don't know.
24:27
Yeah, it was. It was something that's just
24:29
kind of rattling around in my brain while I was there.
24:31
It's a complete tangent. I've lost my train of thought.
24:33
I'm sorry. It's.
24:35
All good. Oh gosh, Bitcoin doesn't
24:40
announce itself. It reveals itself not in the
24:43
moment you buy, but in the moment you stop thinking of it
24:46
as a trade, start sensing it as a discovery.
24:50
This episode is supported by Hardline, an Australian Bitcoin
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hardblock.com dot AU. How has discovering Bitcoin
25:35
changed you? I don't you're probably a better
25:44
judge if you if you looked at my early podcast and now has it
25:47
changed me? I don't know if it has.
25:50
I would say it, it, it hasn't changed me, but but it's
25:57
unlocked now I know now I know how the world works and I or now
26:02
I know more than I used to know and I keep as I learn more and
26:06
more. I I'm attracted to a world that
26:11
works on abundance, hope, truth, but and and I can't.
26:16
I love spending my time with people who think similarly.
26:19
So how it's changed me from that is I just, I don't the whole
26:25
nonsense of the rest of what the world's going through and
26:28
everything else. I realized that the existing
26:29
system is going to attack this in every possible way.
26:33
It's going to most people are going to get caught in the
26:36
existing system. It's going to, they're going to
26:39
spend most of the time yelling at it, contributing to it, make
26:43
it and and not realizing it's them.
26:46
That is that it's a mirror reflection of their own actions.
26:50
And and I've just chosen differently.
26:53
So I so I can. So I guess I'm at total peace,
26:57
like a complete peace. I'd like, I can't believe I get
27:00
to do what I get to do every day.
27:02
Maybe I'm in peace and love and I just love what like all of the
27:06
just everything, everything in my life, what I get to do with
27:11
people and add to everything. And so I don't, I don't
27:15
actually, most of my life I've felt it that way, but I didn't
27:20
see how this how something like this could connect to something
27:24
even more powerful. That's pretty transformative
27:29
irrespective. Maybe not transformative.
27:31
Peace and love made manifest. I had a concept the other day of
27:38
a podcast called the Holotropic Renaissance.
27:40
Great pod host about Bitcoiner, talks a lot about meditation,
27:46
psychedelics, etcetera. Really good.
27:48
But he mentioned that psilocybin, he said was a
27:52
neutral amplifier of affect. And as as soon as he said that,
27:58
I was like, that's what Bitcoin is too.
28:01
It's it's a neutral amplifier of effect.
28:03
You plug yourself in, it doesn't care who you are, what you do,
28:09
but it will it will exacerbate, it will turn up those character
28:13
traits that you have to 11. And if you are always constantly
28:21
searching for, you know, material things, money, you just
28:26
want to have as much money as possible, it will facilitate
28:28
that. If you want to just have an
28:34
element of sufficiency, I guess like just enough, it will
28:41
satisfy that. But you, the key thing is you
28:44
have to, you have to work, you have to engage, you have to
28:47
participate in it. And it will, it will naturally
28:53
amplify those character traits that you have.
28:58
And so if you, if you've already had this, this underlying
29:03
element of peace and love that was sort of you as a core being,
29:09
it's just kind of turned that up to 11.
29:12
But is that unfair to say? Yeah.
29:14
And and I and I don't know when I potentially the tourist story.
29:23
So Gigi, Gigi who's just a brilliant philosopher in Bitcoin
29:28
and just was just such an amazing human being.
29:31
He. Highlighted a lot of words in an
29:34
article that I recently wrote, so I just want to put that out
29:37
there. My ego couldn't let me get not
29:39
get away with that, sorry. Yes, but he's just a just an
29:42
amazing, just amazing human being, a beautiful soul.
29:48
Years ago, this might be 3 or 4 years ago, he was talking about
29:52
Bitcoin in the same way you are right now.
29:54
And I and and I was at dinner and I said, did the Buddha need
29:58
Bitcoin and the and the the next year, whatever.
30:05
The next time we got together, he said to me, I can't stop
30:09
thinking about what you asked. And truth is the answer is no.
30:14
It just it'll, it allows more people to see it, right.
30:18
It allows more, it allows more to people to unlock what was
30:21
always there. It was, it was always there.
30:23
It was always in US. And, and, and most people are so
30:29
scared and, and living from a world of fear that they're in a
30:33
bubble and there's, they become and that bubble reinforces back
30:39
to them and they have no idea that they're in that bubble.
30:42
And so I asked myself these questions tied to this.
30:47
If I lived in a forest, I lived in a tent, I knew nothing about
30:51
the rest of this thing, would I care?
30:55
I would, I know what I do and, and would that make me good,
30:58
bad, anything different? Would all of these fights that
31:01
people have on Bitcoin or elsewhere, would you even care?
31:05
And then I have to extend that, that to what about what about
31:09
this person who doesn't think about this at all?
31:12
What, how did they see the world?
31:15
And, and they see it through their, they see it through their
31:18
own bubble, which prevents them from seeing other different
31:22
things. And so now step into Bitcoin
31:25
from, from that you could probably get to Bitcoin.
31:28
I never did. I never was in any other coin,
31:30
never anything else. And, and I think this naturally
31:33
appealed to me, probably appealed to me from a higher
31:36
consciousness. And I wanted to learn everything
31:39
I, everything I could. But you could be at a lower
31:42
consciousness, find Bitcoin and eventually move to a higher
31:46
consciousness because of it, because the incentives are
31:49
aligned to, to, to a higher consciousness.
31:52
And I think that's what's happening all over is in almost
31:57
like 2 roads up the mountain, at the top of the mountain, they're
32:00
exactly the same. But it doesn't matter which Rd.
32:03
you take. Wow.
32:08
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I've always maintained,
32:11
not always. It's a, it's a, it's a thought
32:13
that I've had for a long time. As Bitcoin initiates an
32:17
evolution of consciousness in an individual, if they're willing
32:22
to, if they're if they allow themselves to, they kind of lean
32:25
in. It probably happens.
32:26
Irregard, irregardless is the word, irrespective of of whether
32:31
they wanted to or not. Like it has some kind of it
32:35
awakens an impulse, I suppose. And you know, if you are that
32:38
person in the tent, in the woods, in the cabin, whatever,
32:43
certainly you, you have abundance all around you.
32:46
I dare say you've figured out certain modes of working in your
32:51
day in order to provide the the things that you need for that
32:55
day, for that week, whatever it is.
32:57
And so therefore, you probably don't need to transact with
33:00
anyone. You therefore you don't need
33:01
Bitcoin. What's interesting is that
33:03
Bitcoiners want to get to that cabin in the woods, so to speak,
33:10
like the metaphorical cabin in the woods, all literal.
33:12
Some, you know, some literally want to do that.
33:15
And it's because it gives them agency after a period of time to
33:22
do that, to kind of share. Yeah.
33:25
I think, and that's, I think that that's my point.
33:28
It's, it's there all the time. It's if, if it's not there for
33:31
you, it's you, it's no one else. It's, it's always there.
33:36
It, it, it's up to you to see if it's there or or or or not.
33:40
And you're on A and most people are on a chase from a filter
33:43
bubble. So DJ, let's let's go to the
33:47
this your two parents, therefore, the four parents that
33:53
had your two parents, the eight that had them, the 16 before
33:58
that. All of those people, all of the
34:01
books they read, all the tragedies in their lives, all of
34:03
the joy, all of the pain, all of everything.
34:06
The the some of a family member that was hit by a car.
34:10
All of those things conspired to create you.
34:14
You going back into my history, same thing to create me.
34:17
All of those things happened to happened to put us on a podcast
34:21
right now together in the only moment that can change for both
34:26
of us is right now. All of all of my ever reading
34:31
that everything I've ever read, everything all of those people
34:34
who impacted me without knowing that they impacted me.
34:39
Create in me what would be my if or in you our filter bubble,
34:47
which we come into this conversation so sure of our
34:50
reality, wanting to defend it. And then a lot often what
34:56
happens out of that is people don't live in the moment.
35:00
They don't realize how much somebody else can actually
35:04
completely increase the infinite opportunities going forward
35:09
because they're not spending time in the moment.
35:11
They're somewhere in their past, somewhere in their future.
35:13
So scared about what they've always done or their reality
35:18
holding so tight that they can't hear the moment and so so that's
35:23
how when I when I say love, I mean we know what I just said is
35:30
true. That means we're all bumping
35:33
into each other with all of the his things, but we're so we're
35:37
so sure of our own reality that we, we miss the greater picture
35:40
that's happening all around us all the time caused by everyone
35:44
bumping into each other. In these moments, any, any two
35:47
people can come in and, and have a totally different outcome.
35:52
You can have a zero to 1 moment where everything changes and you
35:56
have infinite opportunities going forward.
35:59
But what happens to most people in those moments?
36:02
They hold on to the past. They, they stay in it, they
36:06
don't, they don't, they're not present in the moment and they
36:09
carry on because they haven't even heard.
36:12
And so, but I think what is going to happen out of Bitcoin
36:18
and this imposition of of this protocol, it's changing,
36:22
changing that these conversations are now you could
36:26
have it on so you could have it on on mushrooms, you could have
36:30
it on something else. But then what happens up
36:32
happening? People feel that that what I
36:35
just described is true. You could do have the exact same
36:38
thing in meditation, but then they go out and they experience
36:42
world created a physical world created from a construct based
36:47
on theft and they can't hold on to what I just said.
36:52
Well, what if you could hold on to what I just said all the
36:54
time, through every relationship, through every
36:56
everyone you talk to, because you were choosing all your time.
37:00
You were choosing your every moment.
37:02
If you could hold on to that, you would see clearly that it's
37:06
you and you have infinite opportunity, infinite power,
37:09
infinite ability to to love, help others.
37:13
This. This is my jam.
37:17
This is where like what you were talking about just now reminds
37:20
me of a whole bunch of Eastern philosophy smashing into some
37:25
Western philosophy, but also the Joe Dispenza.
37:33
You know, Doctor Joe Dispenza has become a supernatural.
37:36
There's a few books like that. It talks about sort of Eastern
37:41
philosophy with a could have grounded in science and quantum
37:46
mechanics, etcetera. And I don't proclaim to can't
37:50
understand half of what he talks about, but this notion of
37:54
infinite possibilities that you can you can connect to through
38:00
the process of meditation and then you can collapse the wave,
38:07
you know, just by being the observer, by being the witness,
38:10
directing your attention towards one of those possibilities,
38:16
collapsing that wave and and and yes, sending energy towards it,
38:22
or rather, yeah. So sending your attention and
38:24
then and therefore directing energy towards it.
38:28
And that that's the key point is like, as you said, Bitcoin won't
38:34
necessarily fix that. You have to be present in the
38:37
moment, and you have to be conscious enough to direct your
38:43
attention to the things that matter most to you here, now.
38:50
But but, and to now tie those two things together and, and
38:55
whether it's reading Gene Keys or Dispenza or any of the other
38:59
physics or Eastern philosophy, this, this repeats through time
39:05
and space. It's the same thing.
39:07
It's we are all one. And and, and when you see that
39:11
you were all one then, but but now connect that to what ends up
39:16
happening in Bitcoin, you start to see that it's connected to
39:20
the same thing, right? And you also see that everything
39:26
is mine, like literally everything is mine.
39:29
You do have a filter. We all have a filter bubble.
39:31
We believe that it is just our mind and we walk into somebody
39:34
else who thinks the same. We look at our own photo 1st and
39:40
in a group group photo and it's telling us our ego is so we so
39:43
care about our own movie. We don't see everyone else's
39:47
movie and they they do the exact same thing.
39:49
So what would what would the overall movie?
39:52
What would the fabric of reality look like?
39:55
If the fabric of reality, of everything coming from mind had
40:01
to go through a construct that was based on theft to create a
40:05
physical reality, wouldn't all those people that were caught in
40:09
the physical reality created by theft have?
40:14
Feeding back to them from the from their mind.
40:18
Here's how the world works and this is my part in it.
40:22
That would also would make everything that they believe
40:26
worse and they'd be stuck there. And, and just like they said,
40:29
the person in the force has no idea or somebody else has no
40:31
idea. They'd be stuck there and they
40:33
would believe, fully believe and protect their belief that was
40:38
caused by that, by that theft and created in it.
40:43
But if everything's created to my mind, and you didn't have
40:46
that theft, what would that world look like?
40:52
And, and you can see this beautiful emergence that looks
40:56
so different than any other mental model that people have,
41:00
because the mental models are all caught from that, that other
41:03
construct. And you can see the emergence,
41:05
the emergent nature of a different construct.
41:09
That's what's why, why these conversations are so
41:11
fascinating, especially for people that have spent any time
41:14
in Bitcoin and, and they sound like crazy talk for somebody
41:17
caught in a, in their own bubble of reality.
41:20
The other one is because that's happening, right?
41:25
That is what's that's what's happening to us all in this
41:29
because we're starting to to realize what it looks like
41:32
constructing a model that is completely outside of the model
41:37
that we've always lived in. Yeah, Fiat is like samsara
41:43
basically it's a system of illusion and control and desire
41:50
and you know, just cycles around and around and around 1 big
41:55
circle jerk and you know, you're on the hamster wheel.
41:59
Whereas Bitcoin removes that illusion and I I talk about
42:09
there's a necessary right called the spiral of sovereignty, but
42:13
there's a quote in there which isn't mine by Vladimir Nabokov.
42:18
The spiral is a spiritualized circle.
42:20
In the spiral form, the circle uncoiled has ceased to be
42:24
vicious. It has been set free.
42:27
For me, that's kind of Bitcoin. It just unlocks the circle and
42:32
makes it into a spiral and you can ascend effectively from
42:35
there in whether it's consciousness, materially,
42:39
metaphysically, whatever it is, it doesn't.
42:41
It doesn't. It's up to you.
42:42
You have to do the work, but you, you can kind of, it's an
42:46
unlock, as you said, like it, it, it, it enables you to remove
42:52
your preconceptions, your illusions, and it, it also
43:00
dissipates the incentive for control and coercion and in and
43:07
in, in its place, I guess, introduce volunteerism,
43:16
alignment, coherence. And you know, and then it can
43:23
scale that if everybody is opting on the system, like you
43:26
mentioned, if you, if you move away from that existing system,
43:31
you will, you get basically Sunday afternoon at the Bush
43:33
bash where everyone's just hanging out contributing and,
43:39
and it's not all about like sitting in a kumbaya circle and
43:42
having a great time. And all of our solvent problems
43:45
are now solved because the world is all of a sudden adopted
43:48
Bitcoin. That's untenable, but it just
43:52
mitigates. When, when, when, when you say
43:54
that, when you say that's untenable.
43:57
I actually don't know if it's untenable.
43:58
And this is where they, I don't think I even wrote this in the
44:01
book at that time. The what's untenable is a, is,
44:07
is like, it's not a, a, a paradise in, in the way that's
44:14
kind of the, the utopian version of something that but but what
44:19
the free market guarantees is every problem has more
44:24
opportunity to solve the problem.
44:27
And, and you imagine 8 billion people solving problems faster
44:32
and faster and faster. And that's where the wealth
44:35
comes from, where there were individual, individual gain
44:39
versus somebody else. But by doing so, they contribute
44:44
to all society that looks pretty perfect, that looks pretty.
44:50
And, and in other words, problems become opportunities.
44:54
That's why actually there's so much opportunity in Bitcoin
44:57
right now, because problems in the world are so outrageous
45:01
caused by the other system that there's no that that there
45:05
isn't. You just print more money.
45:08
Name a problem that could be solved by With that
45:12
architecture, all problems get worse, which means the inverse
45:17
of that on Bitcoin is, is a way to solve all of the world's
45:22
problems through a different protocol.
45:25
And and we're so early in that protocol development and the and
45:30
the type of opportunity that's there.
45:32
What you feel when you're spending your time and I know
45:35
you're you feel the same. You just talked about the Bush
45:37
bash and podcast. What you feel when you're you're
45:40
energy is totally in alignment with that is is unrecognizable
45:45
to somebody in the other system. Completely and and I guess
45:51
frustrations can emerge at that point if you are a Bitcoiner
45:55
spending your day-to-day and maybe you've just discovered it,
45:58
maybe you've down the rabbit hole, maybe you haven't
46:00
connected yet with someone in the meat space and you're
46:05
effectively operating light years ahead of most other
46:08
people. And these concepts, these this
46:11
whole conversation, I just think about like.
46:16
But why would is it just? I don't want to poke on that for
46:19
a second. Why would you be frustrated by
46:22
the thing by Yeah, by the thing that gives you an advantage to
46:28
help other people at a scale that's unbelievable.
46:33
It is the thing that it's, it's the thing you should be
46:35
celebrating. And why, why people are
46:37
frustrated is not, they're not frustrated.
46:40
It's their ego telling them I matter more.
46:43
I know this and those other people don't.
46:46
And why it's pushing the other people away is that's how
46:48
they're showing up. Yeah, I guess it's for for me,
46:52
it's sometimes a little bit like look, I, I, I can drag this
46:58
horse to order a number of times.
46:59
I can show that the water is clearly cleaner, tastes better.
47:05
It's just, it's just all round a better drink from this through
47:08
than it is over there. Can you just like can can?
47:13
I don't want to. Can you just have a look?
47:15
Just look. Have you, have you ever?
47:19
But have you ever so, so, so take something somebody cares
47:23
about deeply and their mental model is complete, completely
47:26
believes in that mental model. Let's say somebody, let's say 2
47:30
religions, right? Different religions, but they're
47:33
they're so their religion is the right one.
47:36
Go tell them that it's wrong. Yeah.
47:39
Forget it. Like forget it.
47:41
Like so. So it's not up to, to, to, to
47:45
lead them to water, right? It's up to them to, just to, to
47:49
find, find for themselves what makes more sense for themselves.
47:53
And if they're perfectly happy in whatever bubble of it
47:57
realization that they're in, who am I to tell them to, to move?
48:03
If they're what, what I typically do is, is ask them
48:07
questions to, to see at what level they're happy.
48:12
Because if they're talking about all the negatives in the world
48:15
all the time and they're scared all the time, I, I, I'm more
48:21
likely to ask them a question that, that, that they have to
48:26
solve. Why?
48:27
That's caused by their bubble reality.
48:30
Right, right. But you can't, yeah, you, you
48:34
can't save other people from their own suffering like.
48:39
Yeah, it, it, it's just, yeah. And, and, and again, I think we
48:43
should turn that on ourselves too, Like we should turn the
48:47
mirror around on ourselves because if it's not, if we're
48:50
not having the if, if we're not having the effect that we think
48:56
we should have. And it's also not somebody else,
48:59
it's us. Yeah, exactly.
49:02
Precisely. Well, yeah, you just have to do
49:06
well, going back to that present that the present.
49:09
So like, I would just want to tap into this a little bit.
49:14
I listened to a lot of the podcasts that you've done.
49:16
I listened to pretty much most of them.
49:18
I'd say even one of your more recent ones with Mr. Pete Wynn
49:24
and Andy from the Good Stuff. Shout out friend of the.
49:27
Pod. But you were even sort of
49:32
walking a mildly spiritual philosophical path even on that
49:39
podcast. And I hear it on elements
49:44
elsewhere. And I just wondered, I'm just
49:46
going to straight, straight run straight to it.
49:49
Like, do you have an element of spirituality or sort of
49:56
influence from East and Western philosophy that that has helped
50:02
you to come to these conclusions and, and allow you to articulate
50:07
what you've just what we've been talking about for the last, I
50:10
don't know, 15 minutes or so? I think, TJ that this is, is
50:16
probably something that was always in me that that that I've
50:21
always been able to see at a different level and, and some
50:26
crazy examples in my past as well.
50:29
That that the different things that that I could see things
50:34
that that even discussing them would be like what?
50:39
There's no way that that's true. So I think there was there,
50:44
there's there was always an element of curiosity around some
50:48
of what you're what we're talking about now and, and being
50:51
open to it just allowed me to see it at a more clear level.
50:56
I meditate every day. I and, and in that space and I,
51:04
it is a oneness. It is a, when people talk about
51:07
plant medicine, they're, they're describing exactly what I feel
51:13
in meditation. And though I haven't done plant
51:16
medicine and then, and then from that spot, I'm more often able
51:21
to hold it, not just in meditation, but in, in my life
51:25
in general. And the more I hold it, the
51:29
easier things become everywhere else.
51:32
So you're basically, if I may say so, the the incarnation of
51:41
the Christ Spirit as it pertains to Bitcoin.
51:45
Yeah. So that might be a bridge too
51:47
far the but the but but but, but then what is that incarnation?
51:54
And so let's say, let's let's explore that from that time,
51:59
Roman Empire, what it would look like and some major religions
52:03
that came out of that time. And what if, what if inside of
52:08
all of those major religions, what was actually being talked
52:11
about was somebody's agency and love in everybody.
52:17
And it was always the same thing.
52:18
What if somebody was talking about that?
52:20
They were they were speaking at that consciousness, they'd be
52:24
really dangerous to a control system.
52:27
And then and then and, and, and so I, and then what would it
52:34
look like to other people of other observers of somebody that
52:39
was saying that this isn't all of us all the time.
52:44
Other people around that person would feel, feel it wasn't in
52:49
them. It was in that the other person
52:52
gave it to them because you, when you're around somebody that
52:55
is, that is in love all the time, it feels so infectious.
52:59
You just can't wait to be around them.
53:01
You're not, it's. And, and so to the observer, it
53:04
would feel like somebody else gave it to them.
53:07
And then I, I just think of many of the religions formed out of
53:11
the exact same thing we're talking about, out of conscious
53:13
higher consciousness. And then, and then from the
53:17
observer, the observer would celebrate a person and different
53:23
people. And then people fight about
53:25
which, which one and this is the one and everything else.
53:28
But I think it's actually in my, in my view, it now, if somebody
53:32
wants to believe in that, then and I can't, I can't prove or
53:38
disprove what I, what I just said.
53:41
So they're and, and so they're welcome to their own view and,
53:45
and I can celebrate their view, but I think it's one and the
53:49
same thing. I think it's exactly 1 and the
53:51
same thing. What would the world look like
53:53
as it was going through a different transition?
53:55
And what would people look like that were rising above that
53:59
transition to help it, to help others?
54:03
I think they would. And, and then what those others
54:06
celebrate, long after those people were killed, what would
54:10
those other people celebrate? We would build, we would build
54:12
religions around around that. And because we need to celebrate
54:16
a person in our our spirit. And that person might be, might
54:22
be. That.
54:26
Somebody that was celebrating it in all of us, so I think it's
54:30
one in the same. I completely agree with all of
54:33
that. That's one of the things that
54:35
put me off organized religions for a long, long time, to the
54:39
point where I shunned even any sense of spirituality because of
54:43
that. But it's been not like mostly
54:46
through exposure to meditation and books like the Kevalian,
54:53
which talks about the Hermetic principles and things like this,
54:57
where the, the conclusion that I can, I, I, I can't like you just
55:04
it's difficult to falsify. It is you just go back to the
55:06
one everything is everything is, is as you said, the principle of
55:09
mentalism, correspondence, vibration, polarity, blah, blah,
55:13
blah. It's just source.
55:17
And there is this element of of a spirit somewhere, something
55:23
that imbues in all of us and we can just unlock it.
55:26
We can unwaken it, awaken it. We don't need to go and have it
55:30
organized. There's a cool parable.
55:32
And even though I'm pretty sure it's not like in the Bible or
55:35
anything, but the devil and Jesus are walking side by side
55:39
down a path. One day Jesus stops to pick up
55:43
something off the ground. The devil says what?
55:46
What is that? He says it's truth.
55:49
The devil says, give it to me, I can organize it.
55:53
That's kind of for me. It articulates the the issue and
55:57
I think with Bitcoin, not to elevate it to something beyond
56:02
what it is, which is just a neutral protocol for
56:05
transmitting value across time and space.
56:08
It is it does have an element, a way of drawing some kind of
56:14
notion of spiritualness out of people.
56:17
I've seen it. I've like not in me and myself,
56:19
but plenty of others, particularly all the cool folk
56:24
that exist exclusively on Nosta. There is a, there is an impulse
56:30
that it, that it awakens and I don't know, I'm still trying to
56:35
figure that out and explore it and maybe I don't even need to
56:37
figure it out. I'm just trying to understand
56:39
it, I guess. But yeah, this is kind of where
56:43
I, when I hear you talk on other pods and elsewhere, it's like
56:47
there's something there. And I and I wish the host would
56:50
would pull at that thread. I am mindful of our time
56:53
together, so I kind of want to begin to pivot.
56:57
But anyway, I'm glad that you've kind of at least validated that
57:00
I'm not barking up the wrong tree and that there is something
57:02
there that you do meditate every day.
57:05
And meditation is such a cool thing to do.
57:08
You can do it like anywhere, anytime.
57:10
You just focus on the breath. It's the best thing.
57:12
Incredible commended to anybody. And I was one of those people
57:17
that was like, no, I don't have time for meditation.
57:19
My mind's too busy. I got to think of other things
57:21
and a good friend of mine was like I think you should try it.
57:28
Quick break. Just to say if you're enjoying
57:30
the show and digging what you hear, please consider supporting
57:34
discovering Bitcoin by shooting boost and sending or zapping the
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it's easier done than said. All you got to do is tap the
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57:52
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ZAP me direct via lightning address, please send snaps and
57:58
sats or zaps of sats in support of the show to discovering
58:03
Bitcoin at primal.net. Thank you for listening and
58:07
thank you for your support. What do you wish more people
58:12
knew about Bitcoin? I, I don't, you know, honestly,
58:20
I don't wish anything the on that.
58:24
What I said is in their own time.
58:26
I think they'll, they'll most people probably go through a
58:30
series of first thing it is a store value, then then more and
58:35
more and more. Some people will will get
58:38
completely wrecked by by seeing narrowly as a store of value and
58:43
and trusting somebody else with their keys, taking loans in
58:48
massive leverage. All of these things are going to
58:51
happen and they're going to happen because this is such a
58:55
new paradigm. And it's not just a new paradigm
58:58
and Bitcoin, but it's, it's a paradigm of it have a protocol
59:02
developing and layers that and, and and that that open protocol
59:07
developing and layers whole bunch of misunderstanding of how
59:12
the world has always worked, how it will work, all of these, all
59:17
of this. And so it's going to be I just
59:21
there's, I don't think there's something I I wish they more
59:24
people would understand. It's I think it just takes time.
59:27
I think it's just, it took time for me.
59:29
It took time for you. Takes time to be able to lose
59:34
grip of a lie you held on to and re emerge on the other side.
59:39
And what one of the biggest things that in that time is, is
59:45
we tell ourselves we can't, we're going to spend what will I
59:50
do in the new system? That fear of moving all in is,
59:55
is US holding on to that, that past, even if it's not serving
59:59
us well. And, and when you watch other
1:00:00
people do it in different areas of their life, you're, you're
1:00:03
coming away. Why are they doing that?
1:00:05
Then you start to see it in yourself.
1:00:08
So I just think that that process that aid that
1:00:11
understanding you have agency, you decide the world that you
1:00:15
wanted to live in. It's not somebody else and more
1:00:19
that I I think we're going to get to that in time.
1:00:22
These conversations help more people see it in themselves.
1:00:27
But but that's just it's a it's a process every single person
1:00:30
has to go through. If you just said the the highest
1:00:33
level, if we this is exactly it just is, this is exactly how it
1:00:40
have to look. If you had something like
1:00:44
Bitcoin completely changing the fabric of perceived reality for
1:00:49
everybody in the world, it would have to look exactly like this.
1:00:55
That is such a nuts thing to think about.
1:00:57
Like if that is the case, I mean it almost, yeah.
1:01:04
You, you, you just tune out like all the noise, all of it, all of
1:01:08
the tests, all of the fights, all of the all of the free
1:01:11
market things that'll work, the ones that won't work, all of
1:01:15
the, all of the different piece of protocol that will work and
1:01:17
won't work. All of the to see the consensus
1:01:21
mechanism work around knots versus core and and all of all
1:01:25
of that fights and all of the people on both sides, it would
1:01:28
have to look like this to be able to be resilient on the
1:01:34
other side. It's just is it's just so I
1:01:37
don't I'm not fussed about any of it.
1:01:40
The in fact, the exact OP that I just celebrate it all.
1:01:48
It's just incredible to be able to be part of this time and
1:01:51
space that is, that is that this is emerging into reality.
1:02:01
What does Bitcoin mean to you I. Don't know if there's AI, don't
1:02:11
know that there's a pithy answer that instant.
1:02:13
I constantly say truth, hope, abundance, but it's probably so
1:02:19
much more than that. And in a in where this goes,
1:02:23
it's the that truth, hope, abundance.
1:02:26
Moving into what the world we always should have lived in.
1:02:31
So again, frame of reference, we can measure every, we can
1:02:36
measure everything we've ever built, everything that has ever
1:02:39
worked with some sort of fidelity, but we can't measure
1:02:42
what we didn't have access to. And, and what this is going to
1:02:49
bring in into a whole bunch of things that people have no idea
1:02:54
that that changes their lives. So, so remarkably.
1:03:01
This is this is far bigger than the Internet.
1:03:04
It's far bigger than anything that's ever happened.
1:03:06
It's a bit the, it's a phase change.
1:03:12
It's a for society which phase change for humanity.
1:03:21
See, I knew I knew that this this is the conversation that we
1:03:25
would have, this is and I wasn't like attaching anything to it.
1:03:31
I just, I just had this inclination that I'd I'd be
1:03:35
sitting here with my mind pride even wider open and.
1:03:41
You know, so it's, it's so DJ, it's, it's a phase change for
1:03:45
society that you're you, you are not an observer to the process.
1:03:51
You are a creator of the process, right?
1:03:56
But hold that for a moment and think about that.
1:04:01
And if if for anybody listening this podcast that realizes that
1:04:05
the the beauty of what that is right now, why would you be mad
1:04:10
about that, right? Why would you be invited that
1:04:13
other people don't get it right now?
1:04:14
You are a creator of this phase change.
1:04:17
You may all of the other people running nodes, every person
1:04:21
running a podcast, every person training this, all of their
1:04:24
mistakes, all of their successes, everything else.
1:04:28
You are a part of this fabric that is changing the world and
1:04:32
and like what a time to be alive.
1:04:38
Totally. What a time to be alive.
1:04:40
The best part about it is that it's so damn early here.
1:04:43
I get to go on with the rest of my day in such a, in such a, a,
1:04:48
a contented manner. I might even just, I don't know,
1:04:51
I've still got, I've still got a few hours before anyone's going
1:04:53
to get up. So I might even go and meditate
1:04:55
for a while and just elevate this even higher calibre.
1:05:00
Jeff, thank you so much for spending some scarce time finite
1:05:04
energy telling us the tale of how you discovered Bitcoin.
1:05:08
What an honour, what a pleasure, what a gift.
1:05:10
Thank you. No problem, it was my pleasure.