Latest / Curiously Guided Podcast / Ep.50 | The Future of Sales; Embracing a NEW Way of Selling Your Services & Offers, with Sales Consultant & Podcast Co-Host, Shay Schindler

Transcript

Ep.50 | The Future of Sales; Embracing a NEW Way of Selling Your Services & Offers, with Sales Consultant & Podcast Co-Host, Shay Schindler · Curiously Guided Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Curiously Guided Podcast, the place for intuitive business owners and curious minds.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're your hosts, Mariah and Shay.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: And today is another super fun episode.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple episodes ago, I let Shay interview me about my zone of genius, but now we are flipping the script and I get to interview Shay on her zone of genius, which, if you guys didn't know, it's all about sales.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: So Shay is one of those people that it's like, this is truly her zone of genius, but I feel like she doesn't realize or like give herself enough credit that it's her zone of genius because it comes so naturally to her.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like in all of these conversations, she can bring things back to sales, but not in like a fucking gross icky bro marketing.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: You hear a ring at the doorbell, sales guy trying to sell you on the latest fucking vacuum.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like she just completely flips what it means to sell.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that she talks about it is just like so fucking empowering.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just really excited to have this conversation.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, Shay, welcome to your own podcast.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the introduction.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: That made me feel great.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I'm really excited to talk about this.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like you said, I think that um I have trouble reading my own label.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm inside my own jar.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it'll be fun to kind of explore my own philosophy around sales since I'm doing it every day.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, so I'm actually gonna read my own bio to you guys, um, just like we did with Mariah.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and this will be funny.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'll try to switch the from the third person to the first person.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: So good luck.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a high-ticket sales consultant and coach with almost two decades of experience helping thought leaders and creators build profitable businesses online.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: I actually got my start as a strategic planner, coordinating multi-billion dollar infrastructure investment projects in my hometown of St.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Louis, Missouri.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: And although that work was interesting, I quickly realized that the traditional nine to five life was not for me.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so after side hustling online for years, I actually took my online business dreams full-time in 2017 and I launched a brand consultancy with my husband called Free the Robot Creative.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we were fortunate enough to be busy ever since.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, um, I've had a lot of pivots.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I've also had the opportunity to help hundreds of clients grow their own online businesses.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've traveled to over 20 countries working remotely, and I started this podcast with my great friend Mariah.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I, through all this, have really discovered that my zone of genius or my passions rely around teaching people who consider themselves non-salesy, like they hate sales, or I'm no good at sales, or I'm not a salesperson.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how to really reframe that and flip that and figure out a way to make sales work for them because it is really an empowering interaction, or it can be.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm a big believer that it's just gotten a really bad rep.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you love what you do, but you're struggling to sell it, um, definitely slide into my DMs on Instagram uh at sales with Shay, or I also offer office hours if you ever want to pick my brain, and you can also find that at my website, saleswithshay.com.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you guys know the drill.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: We will put all of the links to all of Shay's stuff in the show notes below.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting because it's I I feel like sales is one of those things that especially as an online business owner, like we hear the word and some of us kind of freeze up a little bit.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: But like the truth is that without sales, we don't have a fucking business.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we've kind of chatted about your story a bit before in the podcast, especially in earlier episodes.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: But can you take us down that journey?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how did you end up in the online space, not only being good at sales, but actually liking it?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's actually that's a great question.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm actually gonna go back a little bit farther because I I am one of these people that I hated sales.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I was not from a young age, I was like really aware that sales people were pushy and gross, and I didn't want to be like that.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: So um, like the the story I always tell, I worked at Old Navy in high school.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: And um, the the cool position at Old Navy is to be up on the registers because that's where like time goes by the quickest.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're talking to people, and the worst spot is to be back in the fitting room.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're like back in a dark dungeon, and people are weird.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the opposite of what I had.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was working at Walgreens for a while, and if you got put on a register, we were like, your fucking day is over.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's over.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: We'd much rather be like stocking shelves and like throwing footballs across aisles and like being ridiculous.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really funny.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: That is interesting.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was just bored to death.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, I tell that story because you could only be on the cash registers if you really push the credit card.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: That was like the big agenda.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, push a credit card on everybody, try to get everybody 10% discount.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: You can get 10% off today, get a credit card.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: And um I after a couple people who like already had way too many credit cards, sure, I'll get another one.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: I just felt gross about it.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't feel like I was doing it from a good place.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so from that time period, I picked up the story.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm no good at sales.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, I got put back in the fitting room most of the time.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I had this like story I had picked up of like sales is something that I am no good at, and I need to be back in the fitting room for the rest of my life, basically.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also had some friends that were like selling cut co knives and nothing against all of that, but like the idea of going door to door and having to like talk to strangers was just not something that I was available for.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say, like around high school, I kind of picked up these weird beliefs around selling what it meant to sell and my my personal ability to sell.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so fast forward all the way to 2017 when I started my business, I would have told you I'm not a salesperson.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't like, I'm no good at selling.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so we start our um brand consultancy, Free the Robot.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And ironically, um I just never struggled to find clients and I never struggled to convert clients.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like I loved that part of it.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: I loved getting to talk to people about their dreams and hopes and like strategize a plan for the future.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that was awesome and really energizing for me.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what I didn't love was sitting behind a computer screen and trying to teach myself how to code and like wearing all of the hats that you have to wear.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I over a couple of years really realized I'm I can't I was my business was in the creative space.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm in a lot of community with creative people and I kept hearing people struggle.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to find clients, nobody's got the budget.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: I can't sell this, I can't sell that.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I just thought it was so weird that something they didn't struggle with the production side of things like I did, but they did struggle with the sales and marketing side of things, which I didn't.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I kind of use that as a data point, like maybe there's something here, question mark.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, maybe I'm kind of good at this and I need to like reframe my beliefs about myself.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I actually joined a program called the Aligned Business Academy with Kelsey Kerslake in the very beginning of my business.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: And she um, her approach to sales really kind of like blew my mind at the time, and it really helped me embrace like, hey, I am good at this, and this can be something that um I can help other people with, and also can be something that feels really good and I can have a lot of integrity around.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: So her whole approach is that like sales is a support, sales can be supportive, sales is a service.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Really, at the end of the day, like what I'm doing is I am um helping people try to reach their dreams, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and if you think about it, everything in the world is sales.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you want to go to a restaurant and you need to convince your husband, you have to sell him on it, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: Us as business owners, like it we all have to be salespeople and like sell what we do.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just it's the oldest profession.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like people say prostitution is the oldest profession, but like, what are they doing?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: They are selling something.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: So sales is like a non-negotiable of life.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that a lot of us, the reason I'm really fired up about helping people embrace the role of salesperson is because I know all these people that are really trying to do all this great work, creatives, innovators, smart thought leaders, and they are so repelled by the idea of selling that they're staying small and they're not getting their word out.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that, like, long story short, once I figured out that, like, oh, sales is really just me being a human and making a human connection with another human and seeing if I can help them get to where they're trying to go.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's fun.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I could do that all day long.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like that flip of thinking about sales as like a support or a service really helped me kind of embrace it.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then actually working with you a bit, Mariah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I we got into really into human design.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And when you get really into human design, you start to learn about your gates and channels.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I have this completed channel that um someone has referred to as the sales penis before.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: But basically, like in my human design chart, it's all about it's called like the sacred salesman, and it's all about this idea that like sale the I sales is a sacred act, you know, and you have to do it with integrity because obviously, if I have my own agenda and I am not prioritizing the agenda of the person I'm talking to, there can be some conflict there, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: But the idea that sales could be sacred in this like spiritual act in an act of love, I was like, holy shit, like that lights me up.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was kind of like I had this reframed from some coaches I was around.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing well weirdly in sales.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then through human design, I was that was like the nail in the coffin for me.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, there's something here.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would like to talk about this more and I would like to help people out with it more.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I just started um kind of consulting creatives and other online business owners um with their sales and coaching them around how they can be better at sales.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I also started consulting at some creative agencies um as their salesperson.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I sell high-ticket creative most of the time.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, that's been my my journey.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_02: I um I'm uh it's been a while now that I'm reflecting back, like it's been years, years and years in the making.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I definitely went from kind of hating selling and not thinking I was very good at it to now like, oh my gosh, I love this thing and I want to tell everybody that you're wrong about it and the reputation is wrong.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we fix that?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that this is interesting, and I'm glad that you went all the way back to old navy because I feel like that, like selling a credit card to people that probably shouldn't have a credit card and like whatever.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of those things of like we uh because we have had experiences like that, and like at Walgreens, I was laughing because like you're over here trying to sell credit cards.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted me to push candy bars, okay?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they're literally like, Mariah, if you can sell more Kit Kats, you can be on the register all the time.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I would try to not sell Kit Kats because I didn't want to be on the register, and I was like, you know, I want a Kit Kat because sometimes my manager would be over there.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody wanted a Kit Kat.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, No, I just want you to tell me like how much my fucking order is.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like getting a credit card and like being pushy, that's somebody's like financial foundation, essentially.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, the candy bar, if you're diabetic and you know, blood sugar issues could be problematic, but it's like that credit card has like long-term effects.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we've all experienced that or gotten these telemarketer calls and like sales being pushy.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's truly the difference, is kind of what you explained of just like sales don't have to be pushy, but they feel pushy or they feel unaligned when you don't believe in the product.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm glad that you brought up like how old sales is because that's true.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Even before like money was a thing, we had to sell in order to barter.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: In order to tell you that your box of rocks was equal to my three feathers, I had to sell you on why these three feathers were so great.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, it is really as old as time.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting that we have this narrative that sales is pushy and icky and weird and just like makes us less human from trying to sell when really it's like sales is a service if I need what you're offering me.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And like what a true example of being able to support your right people.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, you know, there's nuances to everything.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like if you're trying to sell an SEO package to somebody that doesn't even have a website, it's kind of like, well, they're not the right fit.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So sales can start to feel unaligned, especially internally.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then that other person that's receiving that conversation feels that the energy is off too, because they kind of know that it's unaligned, but they're hearing you talk about it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like there's just different nuances to it.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm glad that you walked us through that process because I kind of feel similarly about it of like sales is supportive, especially when you're lit up by what the fuck you're doing.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 100%.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I really like what you're pointing out of um.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of things that salespeople miss, actually, there's a a really there's like an older style of sales that I think is where the bad reputation came from, even going all the way back to like um what like pioneer times or like when people were moving out west and western expansion, there was there were snake oil salesmen who like went around and sold snake oil as this like cure-all.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and so, like that the idea of a sleazy salesman is very deep in our like cultural understanding.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: We all know that even back then there was good things that people were selling.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, you I mean, a modium wasn't a thing back then, but it's like you need something to like help you go to the bathroom, like how supportive that somebody's selling that exactly.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Where would we be if people weren't selling things?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it would be possible.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we just have this.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, sales is sacred, and unfortunately, throughout history, people have um, there's like a it can be a power imbalance in a sales um relationship.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And in when you can't detach from your agenda of I just want to sell this, um, it can make the other person feel like they don't really see me, they don't really understand me.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: This doesn't even really feel like a fit for me.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: They're just trying to like reach numbers.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I will say that like in the modern day, there's kind of this old style of selling that I call old um like Jordan Belfort and the Wilf of Wall Street guys.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: If you were on a sales team, it's like a numbers game for them.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you talk to somebody like that, they're like, I just need to talk to a thousand people a week.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if 1% convert, then that means I get to do blah, blah, blah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it was all just about numbers and not looking at people as humans.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And as long as I'm just hitting these crazy numbers, probability I'm gonna get a little bit of uh peace of that.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I my approach to it, I what I call new sales, is getting away from that like quantity idea and more into quality.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, to your point, like, how am I getting people on the phone that need my service, that are qualified for my service, that want my service?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then on the actual call, detaching from my own agenda, I try to imagine myself as like I'm a doctor and you're coming into my office.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: I can't prescribe you anything until I ask you some questions.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Just like this podcast, like curiosity is my biggest superpower in sales.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: I spend most of my sales calls asking questions.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one thing, like the old style of sales was like, it was almost like a performance.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, I'm gonna talk at you the whole time and I'm gonna give you this big pitch and then I'm gonna handle all these objections.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that freaks people out because it like feels like too much on both sides.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for me, I've been thinking more about sales as like improv these days.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just want to go in and ask you questions, get a really good sense of where you are.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: I want you talking 80% of the time and me talking maybe 20%.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's like such a flip from the way things used to be.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're following this script line by line and you're not really caring about the human on the other end of receiving that script.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: To I just get to be here and ask you questions.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's fun.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: That's really nourishing.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then here's the rub, though, at some point in the call, you have to, if you're coming from a place of integrity with selling, you have to decide is this person a good fit for my services?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is the key that a lot of like typically trained salespeople miss.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're just gonna pitch you no matter what.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're not gonna do any kind of asking you questions, try to figure out where you're at, if this is a good fit.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: They just want to pitch you and then they want to upsell you.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so for me, I have a moment in my call where I like take a breath and I'm like, is this person a good fit for me?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you're selling big packages, coaching packages, creative packages, you have to work with these people for the next three, six months, maybe longer.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: You're evaluating them just as much as they are evaluating you, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I will, at a certain point in my call, if I've asked them a bunch of questions and I don't feel like they're a great fit, I'll just be honest and I'll say, like, hey, I don't think where you're at right now is a great fit for the way that I help people, but let me see if I can get you pointed in the right direction.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I am very willing to just walk away at any point because if it's not a service to you, I don't want to strong arm you into some kind of relationship with me.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna be a nightmare for both of us, right?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I think like people are getting weary, they are weary of this old pushy, sleazy kind of vibe that is sales.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in the future, we're more sophisticated now, like we're bombarded with sales and marketing at an exponential rate compared to what we used to be.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we can kind of sift through, like, oh, that feels gross.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, oh, that feels weird.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so funny, like daily on sales calls, people are telling me, like, I've never had anyone talk to me like this before.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And like, this is crazy.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, thank you for taking the time to ask me about myself.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, that seems so obvious, like, duh, it's not hard, but it's so radical, you know.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that I'm like on such a tangent now, but yeah, I think the idea of like acknowledging that there was an old way that was sleazy, and like to your point, but there's also some good stuff going on.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so now moving into the future, we've got to pivot away from the way we've been doing this and like try to figure out how to do it from a good place or a place of integrity, a place that empowers both people.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that a big piece that you mentioned, especially, is like being willing to walk away.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this could honestly it relates to dating too.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like when you're out on a date and you're having dinner with somebody, and it's like you don't want to strong arm them into a relationship with you.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like if you're willing to walk away and not suffocate them or like overperform or try to like weasel your way in into a second date, it's like they can feel that confidence from you.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, a lot of the times we're even more attracted to that person because we don't feel that desperate ass energy.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're just like, ooh, this person's a little bit more attractive because they don't feel like they need me.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, I know if we do move forward in this relationship that they actually want to be with me.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that parallel is like very, very helpful.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I did just want to backtrack for a hot second.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we tend to refer to sales and marketing pretty frequently, but can you, just from your perspective, can you explain the difference between them?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where does marketing end and sales begin?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because like we talk about selling when it comes to like in copy and things like that.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that what you're referring to when it comes to selling and sales?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first of all, there are so many parallels with sales and marketing and the dating relationship.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so a nice way to uh transition into this might be thinking about like when you're marketing, you are trying to find someone.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, like if you're let's say you're single, you're starting from scratch, you're like, I gotta find someone.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna get on Tinder, I'm gonna go out to these events, a bar or something.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same with networking.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Networking is all about like getting out in front of people to get eyes on your business.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then, okay, so I'm going on a date, I've got like a Tinder match, we're about to go on a first date, right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: So um I want they're gonna probably like uh do the deep dive.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: They're gonna like uh uh binge me a little bit, look me up online, like try to try to find out more about me, right?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so that at the at the dating phase is where I think marketing and sales comes together.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think marketing and sales are like hand.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: in hand.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: To me, marketing is all about the beginning steps of like getting your getting eyes on your business.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: So how am I getting out in the world?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then once they are on my business, what do they see?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And being really intentional about the story that you tell when people go on that deep dive and your content or whatever.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Then as we've been dating for a while, there comes a point where we need to pop the question and ask, do we want to stay together?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I feel like sales starts.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So as you're marketing and someone's coming down your funnel, they're getting to know you, they're going through all the things, they want to work with you at some point.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: So whenever somebody switches from like I'm considering options to I'm ready to buy and I want to talk to you about what next steps could be, that's kind of where we switch more into sales.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: But um to me, the way that I think about sales is like that point where people are on the binge or they're doing the deep dive of you, that's also sales.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think about my website as a mini salesperson.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, I want people to get all of the basic facts before they even get on a call with me.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I think about my marketing as a sales agent almost almost like a preliminary salesperson as people are coming down that funnel, if you will, or the flow, they're getting to know me and they're getting really intentional pieces of information about my process, my they're getting social proof about who I've worked with and all of those things are adding trust to the trust jar, right?
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Adding little marbles into our trust jar of like why they would work with us over others.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I think the line between marketing and sales is very blurry.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: But in general I do think that when someone is ready, if you're thinking about like popping the question, that's like when dating turns into like a marriage, right?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of the transition point of how marketing turns into sales.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um to your point earlier, I think a one thing that really helped me with thinking about sales was like you would never propose to someone on the first date ever.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And if you did they would say no right but like how often are we just hit with people selling us just straight out the gate they don't even want to say hi and they're trying to like sell me something.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that that thinking about these people as humans that need to be seen and acknowledged and understood throughout your marketing and sales journey is really, really important.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And in for me imagining like would I ever propose to someone if I don't know anything about them?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: No way.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I got to know all these things before I decide I want to enter this really intimate relationship with you, right?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's the same with sales.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: So like marketing helps us gather information.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: It helps prep them on who we are and then eventually if they do want to move forward we get in some kind of container and have that conversation which is where sales starts.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's kind of blurry.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I definitely agree but I like the referencing to the dating world too I think that it's helpful.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like what a beautiful way to take the pressure off of your content creation to take the pressure off of your content strategy.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have certain specialties especially in the online business space you can hire somebody that's a content strategist and content marketing and blah blah blah blah blah but it's like at the end of the day your content strategy is pieced together so that your content can do the selling for you.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely and so it's kind of just like taking a step back and being like how can if if we wanted to make this super fucking simple like the examples that you gave of just like why am I different than somebody else?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: What is my perspective on this?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just like what content can we give people to binge so that by the time that we get maybe on a sales call or they're sliding into the DMs just like they already know enough about us because they've done their homework already.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: But also keep in mind that it's like some people don't need to research and investigate as much as other people some people prefer to learn on a sales call.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess like really quick and we don't have to spend too much time here, but like do you have a rule of thumb because I know that this is like a huge thing in the online space of like what's better selling in the DMs or hopping on sales calls?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like what's your what's your perspective?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well to your point before um I think if you're thinking about your content as a sales agent, which I think you should, my goal is to get people on a call already sold.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And really the call is just a formality at that point.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: So what I like to do as people are coming through to get on a call with me I think about common I really don't like the phrase objection handling because like who wants to feel handled, right?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that again is implying that there's this adversarial relationship on a sales call when really I want to be friends, right?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: But what I do with my content is I try to I think about objections as questions legitimate questions that people have.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I try to answer those questions ahead of time.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: So if someone if I get a lot of questions around my timeline or a lot of questions around my process or a lot of questions I sold brand strategy for a while.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: So like what is brand strategy?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a lot of just basic things I need you to know because I know you'll have questions about them later.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: I try to get all that stuff up front.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I also try to get a lot of social proof up front.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: We know like from a psychology perspective people buy from an emotional place.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: All of history we've thought it was more logical.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: We thought and we think my me and myself I'm like I'm going to find the data points and I'm going to make a logical decision.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: But really like they've proven with science that like at the end of the day it's more subconscious.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's more on an emotional level it's more of a gut feeling when we make big sales decisions.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I kind of got hyper fascinated with this idea of like okay if selling is based on emotion, what emotion do I need to create through my marketing and my sales calls to get people to sell and through that I really realized it's all about creating safety and trust right and so when people ask me like what should I have in my content I'll say that we know the Harvard research has told us there's three components to trust one is can you do the work?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Are you competent?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's where social proof comes from I want to show people before they even get on a phone with me like I'm the expert, I can do the work.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And even by answering questions that people have, that's establishing you as the pro, right?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: The other bit, second piece of the triangle of trust is you seem like a real human, a real authentic person.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I know you I feel like I what you say and what you do are in alignment.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I need to show up as a real human and I need to let people know the human side of me and I need to um act consistently and I don't mean post every single day consistent, but I mean show up in a consistent way because when you start to act differently when you're acting this way and then you're acting that way and you're doing this job and that job that really erodes trust because on a subconscious level we feel like we can't we can't predict what you're going to do and that makes us feel um untrusted and then or makes us feel like you're untrustworthy.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: The third point is do I care about you?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Do they care about me as the client are they just trying to make a sale or do they really care about me getting to where I'm trying to go and that bit I try to do in my copy.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: I try to do with my social proof of showing like hey I care about you and your success more than I care about making a dollar.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that piece really comes through on the sales call.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I try to do all the social proof stuff all the getting to know me stuff like out front and then on the sales call I really try to and I do that through asking questions.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like I want to understand you.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna try to pair you up with what I think the best solution is.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day you reaching your goals is my top priority.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so um all that being said, I would think about those trust factors as you're planning your content, as you're thinking about your sales calls.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: I am a big fan of sales calls for that reason.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: There is something magical about seeing a human, being eye to eye, face to face, seeing my even on a call, hearing a voice there is something that for me as a customer, I feel more held and seen versus if I'm just typing in a chat.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, if I'm just typing to somebody in a chat I don't know if it's a bot, I don't know who this person is, I don't know where they are in the world.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: Not that that matters but it kind of does like I just have no idea who they are or if they give a shit about me.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: But when I'm on a video call with someone and someone's like asking me questions and coaching me through some deep shit and trying to help me get to where I'm going, that is how you build trust with somebody.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: So for me I'm biased, but I definitely prefer sales calls and that's my style um I would say at the end of the day though, my big message for people is you get to sell in your own way.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are a person that loves being in the DMs, you love DMing other people, you're DMing all day long, you can have really deep meaningful conversations um go for it.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: Do it of course you know like if you hate getting on calls, yes, DM people all day long.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: I have just found for me personally it's a lot easier and more direct if I can get on a call with somebody because to my point I made earlier, I'm also screening them.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Do I want to work with them?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do I want to take this client on?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it's hard to do that for me over the DMs.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm a very like I got to read your energy person, you know?
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so my personal style is I think it's easier to build trust with a sales call.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: But that being said, I think it really can depend on your price point, your target market, how who you are, how you like to sell.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't think there's necessarily a wrong way.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: We know there's not we've seen it done successfully either way.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: I just personally love the sales call.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I feel like I might be a little biased here too, but I personally also love sales calls just for that too like in a sales call you can pick up on the energetics.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: You can pick on the the facial expressions and like the unsaid essentially you can kind of pick up when you say something and they're feeling hesitant like you can pick up on the energy behind their words when it's like when it's just typing it out, you can project your assumption based on that.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like if somebody just has like two word answers, you might feel like they're not getting what they need in the DMs, but really they're sitting over there like they don't, they're just not a person that says a lot.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: So or they have a kid on their hips.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so like they're sitting there like trying to respond to you as they're maybe a stay at home mom or something like that.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that there's just like a lot of other things that come into play and definitely the price point for sure.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if I'm selling a$97 workshop ticket, I'm not gonna offer sales calls for them.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: We can talk about it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can email me your questions, you can DM me and I can answer them.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: But the investment isn't as big as like a$5,000 package or something like that, where it's like especially the length of time for it.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like yo, if we're gonna be working together or if we're doing an intensive where we have to spend two hours together, yeah, I want to make sure that like you're a good fit if you need a sales call.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that yeah, you're right.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's definitely some some things that come into play.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if both of us are biased when it comes to like sales calls and we kind of prefer those and somebody listening is like the idea of sales calls sounds fucking awful.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: How can people start building up their confidence with sales and with sales calls?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: I trust me I was the person I still am I think first of knowing that I'm a sales professional, I take calls all day long, I still get nervous before calls.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's really normal.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: McJagger still gets nervous before performances.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's okay.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me thinking about the sales call more as like an improv show instead of this like refined performance I have to give really helped.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like I really embrace fucking up on sales calls.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like I'm gonna get in here and I'm just maybe going to say some weird shit and like it's fine.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like it'll make me look human.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's not gonna be scripted and awkward in that way it's really just like organic.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I think number one is just like let it be a little awkward and weird.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like sales calls are it's kind of someone's thinking about making an investment like it's kind of an intense conversation.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: So like let it be and know that it's okay if you feel nervous and you stumble over your words.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly if you don't speak perfectly these days that actually makes you look more trustworthy because people are really getting skeptical of very, very polished people.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say number one just let it let it be messy and embrace it right number two is practice.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: You can practice with yourself in the mirror I give this um when people are really struggling to raise their price I usually give the advice like look at yourself in the mirror and say double that price every single day and just walk around and say it.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Practice saying double$40,000 if you want to sell something for 20K.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just start saying it and say it to yourself, say it to your friends just say it out loud.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden when you're on a sales call with someone and you have to say half of that it feels like nothing.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: You're like oh yeah$20K I've been saying$40K your brain does this weird thing where like the first time is the worst but then the second time you do it gets a little more comfortable gets a little more comfortable.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd like to practice and I encourage people practice your numbers also practice your quote unquote pitch right like at some point in the call you need to explain to work together step one step two step three some kind of idea of what it's like it's nice to know how to talk about what you do.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I know this sounds basic but so many people I even started this call by saying I struggled to see myself like we all struggle to really communicate what we do in a simple way.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think what can be really helpful is writing down if you had to limit yourself to like three sentences step one, step two, step three, how could you really say your process in a simple way?
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: Practice that practice saying that to yourself and just get some of the things that you know you want to say on the call start saying them to yourself I don't care to anybody just start getting in the practice of like saying these things and just like going into the gym you're building muscles right so eventually you start to feel more comfortable and talking about what you do and the value of what you do and also communicating your prices.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: So that to me gave me a lot of confidence just like the repetition of it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then the first part is literally like honestly what was the biggest weight off my shoulders around sales calls is like I'm just here to have a good conversation with someone.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm literally just trying to figure out where you at right now where do you want to go what's standing in the way like that's it.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a conversation it's nothing more like I once I removed that I like have to sell him on something um that just made it fun for me.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would think like how how can you connect with the the levity and the lightness of the call?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: How could you have fun with it?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the joy here for you?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know like remembering that it's not such a heavy thing that it can be a fun thing and figuring out what that looks like for you was really helpful for me.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then the other thing I do I have a pre-call practice that I really believe in and we learned this from Aaron Lindstrom, another coach that you and I have both had before the call take a moment where's your energy at the the energy who you be on your calls is way more important than what you say.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna repeat that but like what you show up the energy you show up and then the energy you hold the whole call is way more important than anything you say.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I want to show up in the driver's seat like I'm I've got the wheel here you can relax you're yeah I'm taking you somewhere you know I'm cool calm and collected so before a call I check in with myself if I'm feeling real low that day I'll like put on some music and have like a dance party to try to like get my energy up or if I'm feeling kind of a little high and spinny I'll do a meditation.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I try to spend some time before calls really getting my own energy in the place that I want it because um in my opinion that who you show up as on the call and hold that signals to the client something that they can trust you.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: They you've got them they don't need to worry and again we're creating safety and trust right so I think energy management and having some kind of pre-call practice to like just check in is really really key and I think like nobody talks about that.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah I agree just like straight up gassing yourself up like yo you fucking you own a business you've probably helped clients before and if you haven't helped clients before maybe this is like your first sales call for your very first client you're freaking the fuck out.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you can still be excited about what you do because you're so excited to support somebody and like showing up in the energy of just like I fucking love what I do.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: That alone makes an incredible difference because if I'm hopping on a sales call with let's say like an email copywriter and she's she's just like yeah well blah blah blah and blah blah blah I'm just like do you even want to write my emails you know what I mean like I just want to feel that you give a shit about what you do because that then goes into the results that you're gonna give your people that's a great way to say that you give a shit about what you do you give a shit about me right like that's what people want to walk away feeling it um I think a lot of times we don't realize it but we show up kind of like you know like how are you doing please buy from me please please buy this honestly one of my biggest beliefs around sales are has helped me in sales calls and know like I'm a recovering people pleaser like I've dealt with all of this I struggled to charge for things I struggled to have boundaries on calls like I I know I know the struggle but I have I just adopted this belief very early on like I am not thirsty and I say that on a call if I start to feel like someone's pushing me too much I'm not thirsty.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not thirsty and what I think what I mean by that is like at the end of the day this person can work with me or not I still my basic needs are taken care of I can I have a roof over my head I have water to drink I have food to eat like I'm not thirsty I'm not in a desperate place.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: The worst thing you can do is be in a desperate place.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: I need this so bad because you're positioning yourself as more of like an order taker or someone who really doesn't know what they're doing.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if you struggle with like even if you are in a famine mode and you need the sale more than anything it's still really important that you show up detached and having that like some kind of belief like I'm not thirsty is really really fundamental.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Cause when a client feels like you could take it or leave it, that again is positioning you as the pro, right?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: You've done this many times you've got other options, you know, and and you're there just to serve them and figure out if they need you and maybe they don't and that's great.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: But that again I think um one thing I wanted to bring up was like since we all have this kind of weirdness around sales and we've all been kind of maybe a little bullied in sales relationships before we can really quickly get into like a fight or flight place.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so my whole goal when I'm like talking with someone on a sales call is to keep them more in the front part of their brain where they have all of the access to logic and higher thinking.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want them to get into like panic fight or flight.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people can get there really quickly they'll even show up to the call maybe a little guarded because they've been taken advantage or misled by a salesperson before.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that is why I really focus on like this is a really I start the call off by saying like we may not work together.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like my whole goal right now is just to understand where you are.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: If you're not a great fit to work with us I'm gonna tell you and if you are I'll tell you about that.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I start the call off like that.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that kind of just like relieves the pressure for everybody.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh hey we're here just to have a conversation great and that way we can stay in that kind of like safety place and stay in that like really calm energy and not get hyper defensive and um making weird decisions.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I feel like as a business owner like both of us have been in some kind of like famine phase in business where you're like, oh man, might need to fucking close up shop for a hot minute and like I've had sales calls where it's like I was in that state but what's really helped me be able to shift out of that is that my entire business success does not rely on the outcome of the sales call.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can go to Upwork, I can go to Fiverr, I can go wherever I can go and literally pitch the skills that I have developed to a company and I can get a job either doing consulting, I can get a job doing VA work.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm just always reminded of how many skills us online business people have when I talk to my boyfriend Andrew.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Literally like I said in the one previous episode, this dude didn't even know how to drag something on his desktop into the trash folder on his computer.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just like yo it like we have so many skills that we don't realize.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like if you are in that state A, know that it's normal that your income has fluctuations I think that that's a huge fucking thing.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: Number two is that remind yourself that you're a fucking boss, dude.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're just a genius at what you do.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody has seasons where things feel a little chaotic and a little unstable.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: And like at very worst, you have accumulated some skill that is valuable, even if people aren't like flowing into your business as much as you want them to.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's really important.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then I kind of just wanted to give my own suggestion from being on sales calls.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: What I still do is I bring up my services pages on my website so that when I'm talking to clients, I will literally be like, they'll be like, oh, like what's included in this package?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be like, sometimes I'm like, yo, hold on a second, because I don't want to tell you the wrong thing.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh yeah, okay.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's this, it's this, it's this.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, and then they'll ask like the um payment plans.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I'll be like, let me email them to you so that I can make sure that I have the accurate information.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I follow up with an email with the pricing sometimes, depending on the client, depending if we need a custom proposal.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, that's another thing is A, they don't expect you to be perfect.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just like Shay said, it's like be human and show them, like, oh shit, I actually don't want to give you the wrong information.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, let me just pull up this thing that has it on my website really quick.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: I still do that.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: Eight years in business, I'm still doing that.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, don't think that you have to give a price on the sales call.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: There are plenty of times, especially if you're selling creative work or you're doing custom coaching packages or custom consulting, use the sales call as a way to get a better idea of like what this package is about, and then tell them that you're gonna email them a custom proposal after you hop off of the call.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's normal.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, how can we take the pressure off of ourselves?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of what Shay has been saying of just like allow this to be easy, allow it to be authentic, allow it to just be a connection point.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: That just makes it so much easier.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: I try to think of every call.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: I want to give value.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like an offering.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, no matter if we work together or not, I want to give some kind of value.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I see value in this because I'm connecting with another human and who knows where that could lead.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: And also I'm getting to practice, talking about what I do.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: Every call is a great practice opportunity.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I really try to embrace every call as like, I've got something to learn here.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's some kind of growth opportunity here, and that can make it feel a little bit more fun.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I like your point earlier.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: You kind of helped me finish my thought there.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: I do think there's a bit of abundance mentality that really helps with sales.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like I'm not thirsty at the end of the day, means like I don't need this work.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: I can go drive, I know me, I can go earn money.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know money is a big stream that flows and I can dip my pot in it whenever I want, right?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: So if it really gets down to it, I'm in a famine season and I can't pay my bills, I'll go do something.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'll go drive Uber, like I'll go pick up work on Fiverr, I'll go pick up another consulting gig.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like just that knowing that you are valuable in the economy and your skills are valuable is a very, very empowering place to come from.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then that energy you then can carry forward into your call.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's how you build confidence, right?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I absolutely think that that idea of just there's money out there and I am skillful, I can get it.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: I this one client will not make or break me.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: How can I come here, drop my own agenda, treat it like a meditation, and learn something from this interaction?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll see where it goes.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it will be a great fit, maybe it won't, but like I'm coming with the same energy either way.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that it just really helps shift how you show up.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, like that really is just like the biggest shift point of just like how you're showing up to it.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about building confidence, we talked about just like saying your numbers in the mirror, but it's like, what do you see?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what other things do you see that people struggle with when it comes to sales?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that we kind of didn't get to talk about yet?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, I'm sure there is.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think number one is getting really clear around your own stories around um sales.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like sit down and write down like, what do I think about people who sell?
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or what do I think about selling?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you'll probably uncover some kind of weird stuff and know that even if you don't consciously realize it, you carry those beliefs into any call you do.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: So if you feel like sales is sleazy, you're gonna get on a call and like be coming from a weird energy because you feel sleazy, right?
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I think number one, it's really helpful to like be aware of like what's going on in your own head around this work that you're doing, and then how is that affecting how you show up?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, another the big thing I really hear people struggle with is I don't know how to communicate the value of what I do.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to talk about what I do.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they think that there's these magic lines that they can say on a sales call.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'll get people allowed that's like, well, I had a person ask this, and then what do I say?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like we all want to find this, like these magic scripts.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: We're all out there looking for these magic scripts, these magic.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the sales scripts.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's out here selling.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: They're just like, What my sales script?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you can close 100K in three minutes.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's this fear of I don't know the right thing to say, just like we talk about a lot, Mariah.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I need to go buy a script from somebody else or a question book or a training.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and not that there's anything wrong with any of that.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've definitely invested in my own sales training.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I think when you really can like blow the lid off this, is when you you you have the scripts, you know the idea, but you let go of all of that.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you really embrace that, like there is no one right thing to say ever.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and really, like, one for me, like one objection.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'll have a lot of people come to me and be like, I did the whole thing and I got to the end, and then they told me this, and then what should I have said?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, it's not just one line that's gonna save a sales call.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: Just like I talked about earlier, there's this like Brene Brown has this idea of like you have a jar of marbles, and and that's how you build trust, right?
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: You just add one marble at a time, you fill up your trust jar.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, have you been building trust throughout the entire conversation by being a human, by actually listening when they talk, by responding in like a really thoughtful way and not just moving down your own script?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: All of that stuff then works together to make what we call an objectionless close.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: But there is no magic one-liner.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think a lot of people are looking for this, like they're trying to remember all of these lines and scripts, and then they trip themselves up on calls.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so, long story short, people ask me, like, how do I communicate the value of what I do?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, You don't know.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how to answer that question until I go through the first part of a sales call.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because I have to figure out where the client values.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: So once I figure out what the client values, what they want, then I can talk about my services in a way that relates to their value.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know how to answer that question until I talk to a person.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody values different things.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's got different priorities, everybody wants a different outcome or a different transformation.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's almost like you're missing ingredients.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's trying to memorize all these scripts and have all these really ninja responses to objections.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, it's improv.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the real skill is go in, ask a ton of questions, try to get a good sense as you can about where they're at, what they value, what they're looking for.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second part, talk about what you do in relation to what they told you.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Connect things they told you.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you said you wanted this.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, and step two, that's how we're actually going to get to that, right?
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that kind of like fluidity and like where you're remembering things they said, repeating them back into your process, that that is how you close people.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not, there is no magic.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: I really like uh I get grossed out by all the objection handling and I you can manipulate them with their psychology.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of that stuff is trying to get people into fight or flight so you can get the people pleasers just to say yes right there, right?
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: And and I have been a victim of that before, so I'm very, very skeptical of that.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I just really, if I could like give any advice, it's try to practice as much as possible this style.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: Stop trying to memorize all of these lines and all of these 10 question steps to handling a financial objection and just really practicing listening and asking a person question and responding, and then being able to talk about what you do in relation to what they told you.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like that is the real key.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: I fuck up all the time on calls.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm bad at mental math.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell people on calls I'm not a mental math girl.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna get off here and I'm gonna type this up for you so you can actually see the numbers.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_02: All that's great.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it's actually kind of nice to fuck up a little bit.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like showing, like, hey, I'm a human, I'm I'm a normal person, right?
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that like I just like I like to tell people I'm not good at mental math.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like I like to just be really honest about who I am.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I'll trip over my words.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: I may say something I don't mean and after correct it later, but like that just makes me more human and real.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: And when you can be honest and have boundaries and just have a nice conversation with somebody, that positions you as the professional.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then magically all the other problems solve themselves.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: And all of that, it's essentially comes back to what you always say of like selling with integrity.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're listening to this, you could, and people do, take these things and then manipulate and then use tactics to come from a manipulative, like unaligned place.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's what makes them feel like they're being pressured to make a decision.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like everything you said is kind of just backs up of like, we could do it the old way of like bro marketing and snake oil salesman.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: It has worked.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: It has worked in the past.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's why big companies still do it.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're gonna step into this new way of sales and selling with integrity, we have to be more aware of how we're showing up and like authenticity comes into play.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've mentioned the word a couple of times, and like that's it.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: And what's authentic to me is not authentic to you.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I'm showing up to this call, I don't know if you guys listening to this podcast can tell.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: I get pretty jazzed up and like excited about and passionate and like I'll swear and like whatever.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like that might not be authentic to you.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the way that I show up and talk to potential clients and I'm on sales calls, being in integrity for me, being in line with my authentic self is different than what it means to be in integrity with you.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like we just we have to do the work when we're a business owner to be able to figure out what that means for us.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: I like that you brought up that manipulative idea.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is one thing I wanted to share.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um sales is like this magical tool, and you can almost like Star Wars, you can use it for the light side or you can use it for the dark side, you know?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think as a consumer, I've really found it empowering to be aware of just like what sales techniques are out there and are being used.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, know that any person you talk to, usually they've talked to a version of you like hundreds of times.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like a seasoned salesperson has done this conversation over and over and over.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: So they're really careful with their language and they know just the right way to say things.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and um, you know, the way sales is taught, they're taught to withhold information.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so only give it at the perfect time, right?
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that like pulling the curtain back behind the sales process was really empowering for me.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've told you on past episodes, like there's a style of sales called takeaway sales, where if you don't make a decision on the call, they won't, they'll they'll remove the offer and they'll they'll call it intuitive.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_02: They'll say, This is really an intuitive thing.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't have this right now, then you're probably not a great fit.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: And they they take it away.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think shit, yeah, that's horrible.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_02: And it's really popular, it's like very popular.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, I that bothers me.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I don't want to be that, right?
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I think pay attention to like what has bothered you about sales in the past and know that you can redefine it and not do it like that.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's something that makes you feel disgusting, don't do it and have boundaries for yourself as a salesperson and as a customer.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_02: I told you on a past episode, like, if I feel like um I'm kind of getting out of my good energy in a call on either side, I just have an escape hatch and I'll just get off the call and be like, you know what, this is a lot for me right now.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: I need to sit down and process, like, let's pick up this conversation at another time.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: But if I start to feel like someone's pressuring me and pushing me in a way I don't want to be, I press that escape button.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: If I have a client that's like getting a little too rowdy, I press that escape button, right?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like you are in control and you are allowed to have boundaries and um and know that a salesperson is just they know your psychology, they know what you're looking for, they they know they've practiced like having small talk at the beginning of a conversation and and pitching the price at a certain point.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's all laid out in a certain way, and not that that is bad, but I think just being aware of what's going on is really empowering so that way you can come in with your own boundaries and not just feel like you're like swayed with the winds, you know, and just being pushed in every direction.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that brings me to another question.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard people like I've been in tons of like programs and communities and like masterminds and stuff like that.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people, they have an issue with not so much boundaries from like being sold to that perspective, but boundaries from like the business owner perspective and selling, because sometimes they'll get on calls with clients and it's like they've only blacked out maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes for a sales call, and then it's been an hour, and it's like you don't want to be rude and like you want to help this person, but like they're not aware of the time.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: They keep asking questions.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we hold boundaries and help potential clients reel it back in without kind of feeling like an asshole about it?
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've definitely um a lot of the people I've coached, they can sometimes get into like two and three hour sales calls um because you feel like that is consulting and coaching and strategizing at that point.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and a lot of coaches feel like this and creatives of like, oh, I need to prove my value.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think the second a Melinda Livesy, our past guest, taught me this.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you don't have to prove anything.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing to prove on a sales call.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_02: All the proving is done on your website, done on the other touch points.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: You the second you try to start proving, it's done, right?
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's you're selling, that's when you enter that um really bad place.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: So remind me of the question again.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: Just like as a business owner, how do we hold up boundaries when people are going buckwild?
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: So if you start to feel like you get in that proving, I'm I'm starting to like, oh, let me tell you why.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel desperate.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: I want to prove to you why you should work with me.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I it's funny, I don't I know that we feel like assholes, but like you can just say something as simple as like, hey, I have got a call at the top of the hour, I've got to hop off here, let's continue this via email.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you can get off at any point and you can say whatever you want.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: I do think I call I have like um I call it signposting, but I have an outline of a sales call and and I know first I want to ask a lot of questions, second, I want to, you know, um do this, third, I want to do that.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I in my head, if I feel like a client is like really chatty and like we could stay in that kind of discovery phase forever, I go back to that like order of that outline and I use it as like an anchor on my calls.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: So if I I'm pretty good, like if someone's like, oh, let's wandering off here on a tangent, I'll be like, okay, well, I want to be um respect or I'm I'm aware that we've got limited time today.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be respectful of your time and I've got something to hop off on here.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: So let's keep it focused on this project and we can talk about that a little bit more later.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I think like having a structure that you can, if the car feels like or the train's going off the rails that you can like deviate back to is really, really helpful.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and clients appreciate just like children, you know, I always hear that parents are supposed to like create structure for kids and kids respond well.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_02: Clients will appreciate that too.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: They'll appreciate that you're aware enough of like, hey, we have limited time, we have things we need to talk about.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like people are really receptive of that.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it again is establishing you as I'm in the driver's seat.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say that figure out what you want out of the sales call, make yourself a little outline, try to do that in the time you have allotted.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then if someone needs more time, that's up to you.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I will hop on a second call with people, sometimes I'll try to take it over to email.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of just depends on the person.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: But um, having a nice little one-liner that you can just like whip out if things are feeling off the rails, I do think is a nice confidence builder.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate those examples.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so one more question about sales.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: What's like we kind of talked about like the old way of sales, the new way of sales.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's your prediction for the future of sales and selling?
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is it this new way of like integrity, or like, is there is there something else that we should kind of be aware of?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of touched on this a little at the beginning.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um I am noticing with like younger clients, and I'm curious if you've ever noticed this, they're very aware of like sales techniques and like very turned off by like traditional ways that we may have been taught to sell.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: And what my theory is like those of us, the younger we are, we're getting just exposed to like constant sales and selling in a million different ways.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like our parents used to just have like what, like billboards and like not door-to-door salesmen, vacuum salesmen.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you want the?
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: I remember those growing up.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: My mom was like, he's coming to do a demo on the carpet.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, We just had somebody doing a demo on the carpet last week.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: And your mom's like, I don't ever have to vacuum, it's great.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: But think about today, like uh every second on every platform, on your phone, when you're driving everywhere, you're getting ads, and um, people are trying to sell you stuff, they're trying to, you know, like get you aware of their product, it's so loud, and we have so much information.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think people are, it's just like SEO and website work, attention spans are going down.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think people's like trust is also going down.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we're aware, we're a little bit more savvy, I think, than we've ever been.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing is there used to be a big information imbalance in sales before the internet, right?
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like the salesperson had all of the information and you had nothing, and you kind of relied on them to give you what they wanted.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_02: And there was like that power imbalance.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, now with the internet, pretty much everybody has equal access to information.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: There is no more of that.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: So the old way of like, I'm above you and you're below me, and like that kind of like adversarial numbers, numbers, numbers style.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it's just not gonna work anymore.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think as customers get more and more sophisticated, they're gonna get more and more repulsed by that.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then the flip side of this is what Mariah and I always talk about lifestyle design.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like a lot of these salespeople, they're telling you to work.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine contacting thousands of people in a week, right?
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like that kind of like hustle, hustle, grind, grind, grind mentality.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about the numbers.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think that kind of attitude is shifting.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: People are really caring more about work-life balance and having relationships outside of work and having other interests, you know.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I think those forces will come together to kind of encourage more of a quality over quantity type sales situation, where we are maybe getting on less calls with people, but those calls that we do get on are really great fits and really well qualified.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we're able to have a really human conversation with them instead of just like chugging through, like when you have a hundred calls to get through, you're just chugging through or whatever.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're treating people like humans, we're having a really great conversation.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if it leads to a sale, great.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_02: If not, let me see if I can get you in the right direction.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I predict and I have experienced it.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_02: When you sell like that, you blow people's minds, and your numbers are fantastic.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds simple, but I promise you it's radical because it's like so different than the way sales has been taught to most of us.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think that this idea of selling with integrity or ethical sales is going to continue to grow.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_02: People are going to get more savvy, just like lifestyles and what people want out of life are changing.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_02: So my hope is that we're like heading in a good direction and we can kind of, all of us, I hope, like reframe our own relationships.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: With sales and see it less of this like gross thing and more of a really empowering, supportive thing.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it it kind of just comes back to like what content assets do you have?
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: If people have access to the same information that we do as the person selling, it's like, then how do we give them the information in a way that makes sense that also makes selling easier for us?
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of comes back to like that content creation and content marketing.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: And like if you're using Instagram, like what posts do you have on there?
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are they bingeable?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, what content's on your website, on your services stuff?
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, let your content work for you, especially because where it's moving, it's like people are doing the research before they're reaching out.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: I can literally go to Google right now and be like Zoom competitors or Zoom um competition or something like that.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: And to be able to see or Zoom alternatives, to be able to see different like video software options.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's like people are looking for this content.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can take advantage of it, it'll make your selling a hell of a lot easier.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that way it's like, you know, all this content's on my site, it's on my social media profiles.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like people also don't want to waste their time.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like a lot of people will only jump on a sales call if they're almost already, if not there, to like converting already.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just keeping that in mind is really helpful.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I really like how you reframe it and like how closely we pull trust in.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sales is about trust and not like some manipulative, like, I'm gonna make you trust me, like hypnosis thing.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually just like, how can we authentically build a connection with that person, whether they're gonna buy from me or not?
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because we also have to think about referrals.
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you show up in like some shitty energy on a sales call and you don't know how many people that that person's connected to.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, oh shit, now you just burned a bridge with like 20 people because you were being manipulative and that person didn't like how they felt.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think everything is just so connected.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: And being a business owner, we're able to be in the driver's seat of like, do we want to go this new way with sales and integrity and like ethical way of moving things?
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or do we want to keep hustling through and only worrying about the numbers?
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, Shay, I think that your perspective is just it's so needed, it's so grounded, and it's so empowering.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: But before we hop off, we have one question that obviously you know we ask every human on the podcast.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, Shay, what has been sparking your curiosity lately?
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for that.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just finished a coaching package, as you did too, with a former guest of ours called Ash Burnside.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: And she introduced me to this idea.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've been obsessed with this idea of genius.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so she helped me, like, like we're talking about my zone of genius here today, and like what is genius?
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_02: And she really the the root of the word comes from this word eudaimonia, which means to be well demoned.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what an interesting idea.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: Being well demoned.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so her and I have been doing this work of like, how do I connect to my well demons?
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who are the the forces here in this world that are like guiding me and supporting me to where I'm going?
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I build a relationship with them and get to know them?
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because I feel like I've spent a lot of my life on the other side.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: I have my well demons and then like my not well demons.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like my not well demons can kind of run the show sometimes.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've been really kind of obsessed with this idea of like eudaimonia and like connecting with the forces, however, you want to think about that, supports, muses, spirit, whatever is here in this life that's propelling you forward, you can have relationships with those things and people and in presences, whatever they are, and they can really um be a lift for you here in this life.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a bit of like connect reconnecting with my spirituality, like reconnecting with the my guides and like who is here taking me on this journey.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, the idea of like your genius is connected to these guides is like very, very cool.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I I want to explore that more and get more into that.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly why I signed up for her package.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: She called, I mean, like using the words right out of her mouth.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how many fucking times in an episode am I like genius, genius, genius?
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, Hey Mariah, I'm launching a thing called your genius self.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, take my money, bitch.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Take it.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_02: It is really an interesting, it's a cool thing.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like, of course, we should all know what our gifts and value is in this world, but we don't, you know, it's hard to see yourself, like we've talked about in this episode.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea of exploring your own genius, especially with that spiritual angle, is very cool.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm excited for us to share with our listeners kind of how this unflow unfolds for both of us.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_01: But tell our listeners where they can find and connect with you.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't have a super active Instagram feed, but I am very active in the DMs.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: So if you do want to slide into my DMs, I would love to hear from you.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I also offer office hours.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_02: So if you do have a particular sales situation that you want to pick my brain about, you can get a link uh to schedule one of those on my website, which is saleswish.com.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then um most importantly, I'd love to encourage you guys, if you're a fan of the podcast or you've made it this far and you're a fan of us, get on the Curiously Guided newsletter.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Mariah and I are often holding workshops.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm holding some sales workshops throughout the rest of this year.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we do them together, sometimes we do them separately.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_02: But if you'd like to stay up to date on what we have going on, um, I think that newsletter would be a great place to be.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we will put the links to all of that stuff in the show notes below.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we're gonna close this episode down.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you guys enjoyed this episode, feel free to screenshot it, share it on social media, or share this episode with a friend.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you got an online business friend that maybe has a a tough time with sales or selling, share this episode.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like um, it's like a talking point when you share something like this with somebody that you love.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then if you have any questions about anything, totally DM us on Instagram.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: We love connecting with you guys.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Follow the nudge, ask questions, and let curiosity guide the way.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you in the next episode.