Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 2 Episode 9 – Tony Johnson | How Preachers Can Get Authentic and Effective
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Tony Johnson, welcome to the better preaching podcast. Tony Johnson: Frank, it's always a blessing to hang out with you. So this is fun. Dr. Frank Weller: Listen, let's answer this question right from the jump. Before joining the team at 242, had you ever used the vertical bar on your keyboard? Ha ha ha. Tony Johnson: Not at Dr. Frank Weller: I had to look up to see what it's actually called. V vertical bar pipe. I I mean Tony Johnson: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: it's Tony Johnson: Yeah, I don't I don't know anything technological. So the the fact that this video's working right now is is testament Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Tony Johnson: to about as far as I can go. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, for our BP two listeners who don't know, two forty two's got this little branding quirk. If you look at the the backslash on your keyboard, which is above the return key, if you shift there's a vertical line there and two vertical line forty two. Tony Johnson: It is. It told Yeah. Yeah. And there are definitely people on our team that do not like the slash. They definitely you gotta get that vertical bar in there. So I think Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, there's an etiquette, right? Tony Johnson: there there absolutely is. It's a branding thing. So if you talk to our arts team, they will they will explain it to you. Dr. Frank Weller: Bunch of Luddites using the backs backslash. Tony Johnson: I know. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, I've been looking forward to having you on the podcast just to talk about preaching. but before we really dive into it, let me just take a minute and pause and say that the Better Preaching Podcast is powered by Great Lakes Christian College. You know, some folks are surprised to learn that GLCC has enjoyed four straight years of enrollment growth. That's because families and students want what GLCC offers: authentic Christianity, excellent academics, and affordability. That means every student is prepared academically and spiritually without being saddled with crippling student debt. So if you want to learn how GLCC can help you become the best version of who God's calling you to be, go to glcc.edu. Tony, many of our listeners, if not most, grew up as part of the independent Christian churches and churches of Christ. You're a relative newcomer to that tribe. I'd love for you just to share that journey with our listeners. Tony Johnson: Yeah, so I grew up in the United Methodist Church, small country church in in Indiana. And that's that's kind of where my pathway was. I long story short, I was pursuing broadcasting. That was the career pathway that I was that I was gonna take. And then God called me into ministry in my first job out of college. so you know, moved to California where I started seminary at Azusa Pacific, Haggard School Theology. That is where I met my wife. And drug her from California back to Kentucky to the Midwest to finish up at Asbury Seminary. then after that, you know, we started having kids and went into ministry out of seminary. And I served, goodness Frank, probably 14 years as a pastor in the United Methodist Church in Indiana, in various, various contexts. So and then in 2021, you know, God put a call on my family's heart that honestly we we put our our name and the application process here at at 242. honestly just kind of thought God was trying to teach me something. next thing I know, we're moving our family to Michigan, where we always wanted to live. The secret is I always wanted to retire to Michigan and God brought us here early. The the funny thing is, Frank, I I grew up vacationing to Lake Michigan, like the Warren Dune State Park. In fact, we're going tomorrow with the family over there. and we were so excited because we're moving to Michigan. It's the place we love to vacation. Frank, to the minute, it is the exact same distance from my house to that place as it was from my previous home to there. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I believe it. Tony Johnson: We did not move an inch closer, not a minute closer. So but we love it. We love it. I absolutely love it here at two forty two. And it's just been a just a thrilling, it's been five years now, Frank. I'm I just yeah, just Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I saw that. September it'll be five years. That's gone quickly. Tony Johnson: Very quickly, finished up the five year mark. So so yeah, it's been it's been a great journey. I I love the time that I had in the United Methodist Church. Many of your listeners, viewers know that they've gone through a theological shift and you know, most of my connections have disaffiliated and they're either global Methodist or independent at this point. So it it looks vastly different than it was, but great formed some great relationships and and grew in leadership opportunities in in preaching. in everything that I did there that I I look back now and I see all the stepping stones that God put in my life to get me to where I'm at now. Dr. Frank Weller: I was thinking recently about you with the news about Asbury Tony Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: exiting affiliation with the UMC. I I I'm I'm guessing that there may be some ways that their journey mirrors yours or vice versa. Tony Johnson: Yeah, a little bit. It's it's I mean, we we can biblical Orthodox Christian views and we just refuse to deviate from those. And that was that was part of our separation. We we knew I wasn't running away from the Methodist church when when we moved here, but we also knew the church I was pastoring was going to disaffiliate because there were some things we're we weren't gonna waver on theologically. and so we we kind of saw this, we we assumed it was gonna happen at some point with Asbury. It is heartbreaking. Asbury is an amazing institution. helped form me in so many different ways, not just theologically, but just preparing for ministry. And what one of the things I love about Asbury is they do such a good job. And Frank, I know you guys do this at Great Lakes as well, is it's not just about the head, it's about the heart. And those professors care deeply about your soul, and they're forming Christian men and women first and foremost, pastors secondly, and So it's you know, it's it's not a surprise, it's a little bit heartbreaking because they do a phenomenal job preparing pastors there. Dr. Frank Weller: Tony, what have you found in in the shift from the UMC to independent Christian churches and churches of Christ? What what have you found that has been surprising or refreshing or or maybe even similar or vastly dissimilar to your previous experience? Tony Johnson: Yeah, I think I'm not that's a good question, Frank. I don't think there's a whole lot of differences. I I I say that knowing that the the church I served previously felt more independent than it did what a lot of people probably picture when they think Methodist church. so there wasn't a huge shift coming here. It was a there was a scale, absolutely. It was a bigger church and scale. The biggest thing I think is it was a it was a total transition of tribe. So I'm 46 now. I was 41 when I came. that's a whole new tribe in my 40s. I never thought I'd be rebuilding my friend network in my 40s. And so that was a it was a hard transition. And the difficulty is because the restoration movement, independent church, Christian church, the they're so we're so spread out. So I've made some great relationships, but they're in Arizona or California or Colorado or where they're all over the place. Whereas the conference that I was in in Indiana, like we were all geographically connected and we could easily go grab lunch with one another. so so honestly, it's it's not about ministry, it's on the personal side of building the relationships and the friendships that that are critical for all of us to have that's just been harder in the restoration movement because of how spread out. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I can see that. Well, listen, this is a podcast about preaching, so let's dive into it a little bit. Tony Johnson: Yep. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: In terms of preaching, two forty two has a different approach to multi-site. A lot of multi-site churches have one main speaker at the main main venue and then they Tony Johnson: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: pipe that sermon into their locations. Two forty-two takes a different approach. They have live preaching from multiple voices on each campus. Walk us through that and and tell us what works and what are some of the challenges in that. Tony Johnson: Yeah, I think I think one of the things that works is people get to actually know their preacher. I d I'm not one, Frank, to say that that one model is is the best model. I think it just depends on context and and where you're at. I think one of the the great things is when our our preaching team gets to move around and hit every campus and be in person, we actually get to build some relational equity with people versus just being on a screen. And what I'm talking about is like time in the lobbies, time having conversations with people, real face-to-face stuff. That's that's probably the biggest benefit. and also the diversity of voices. if you we're we have live preaching at five of our seven campuses every week. Two of our campuses have live preaching once a month. that's a lot of different voices that people get to hear and experience. The the flip side of that is that it's really hard to schedule preaching at five different campuses, sometimes seven on some weeks, and make sure that we're we're getting the quality. And level of preaching that we we desire. I do think there's a preacher shortage today, like a quality preacher shortage today, which makes it that much more difficult for us to be able to have every single week at least five preachers on stage who can communicate the gospel effectively. But not just not just communicate the gospel, but we one of the things we look for, Frank, is unity and alignment. We it doesn't have to be the exact same message. I want you to contextualize it. To be authentically frank if you're preaching at one of our campuses, but I do want people who heard you preach to be able to go to lunch with someone who heard me preach and have a conversation about the material and the content and understand they heard generally the same, the same content. So whether it's a big idea, scripture passage, key illustrations, like those things are important. But again, it takes a lot of work to get that alignment. The easiest thing, Frank, would be we got one preacher, I'm preaching. Everyt what I say everyone heard. That would be the easier thing. I don't know if it's the most effective thing. Maybe it would be. the reality is I I did inherit this model. I don't know if I would have chosen this model. I also don't know if I wouldn't have chosen so it's there, there's just so many benefits and drawbacks at the same time. It's just which hard do you want to choose? Everything is hard. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: the thing sure one of the things I've appreciated about the model that you have is it avoids some of the challenges of celebrity. You have you have one person Tony Johnson: absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: and that's the person. What happen what happens when they get hit by a bus? And and and Tony Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. So a common phrase around here when I got here was kill the celebrity. And you and I know mutually Steve Larson, he was the one that's with such wisdom told me, he says, Tony, I don't think it's about killing the celebrity. I think it's about minimizing the celebrity. Because the reality is as soon as any of us step on stage, there is some level of celebrity nature to it. It's just how do we minimize that and not make that so important? And this model act does make that possible. there are are times I'll go to a a campus that I don't get to frequent as often and meet someone and they said they tell me their story. yeah, I've been coming for five months. They have no idea who I am. As far as they know, I'm just a preacher. They don't know I'm the lead pastor. And that's great. It's it's great that that's not the thing that's like, there's the lead pastor. It's just he's just another guy who's a part of the staff. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I like that. Tony, you you mentioned that you're coming up on five years, five years in September, and you mentioned before that you were a church planter. Is there anything different about your approach to preaching at an established congregation versus a church plant? Tony Johnson: Hmm. Honestly, I don't I don't think so for me. That there wasn't. I think you're always, as you're as you're preaching, you're always thinking about who you're talking to. so so here, for instance, five different seven different campuses, depending on which campus you go to, you're talking to a different demographic of people. I mean, the people in Monroe, Michigan, are different than the people in Brighton, Michigan. And so every time you go, you're thinking about who the who the people are in the congregation, what their culture's like, how do you speak to them, what kind of illustrations work. So I think whether it's a church plant or instant church has been around for for us 21 years, I think for me it's the same approach. Who am I talking to? In a church plant, you might be talking to more unchurch people. So you got to take that into consideration. but I think I think that's the that's always been the focus for me is who am I actually talking to in the moment, rather than shifting an approach based on the type of church I'm in. That makes sense. Dr. Frank Weller: I also think that there's a sense in which every sermon is an ecclesiological sermon. With every sermon, it's okay, who's God calling me to be, right? What what's the application for me? What's the Holy Spirit want to do in my life? But when we're in community, we're also talking about what God wants to do in the life of this congregation. And so ecclesiologically, there are going to be some challenges with. An established church versus a church plant. With a church plant it's a bit of a blank canvas. You can start and build an ecclesiology from scratch, but as Tony Johnson: Yeah, that's true. Dr. Frank Weller: you say, you you inherited one at two hundred forty two. Tony Johnson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it and then you're you're finding a way. you you know, they they say transition takes five years. When a new lead pastor comes in, it's actually about five years before they're actually solidified as the leader. So I'm looking forward to about a month from now when I when I hit that window. but but Dr. Frank Weller: Click. Tony Johnson: I think part of that is it's even everything you just said takes time to shift, even though like theologically, all those things. I'm not that different than what was before. My approach is different. I mean, if you look at and and this isn't disparaging at all, I love every single teaching pastor we've ever had here. but our team looks different than it did when I arrived. And one of the reasons it looks different is because I'm looking from some for something else from stage. And that wasn't again, I want to be very clear. This wasn't me getting people out. I love the guys that we had. But when I have an opportunity to bring someone in. To the teaching team, I'm looking for a very specific thing. So I think if you've been around 242 for the past five years, you've actually seen that the voice of the church has changed. And it's mostly about how we approach the gospel from stage. and and I'll I'll talk a lot, Frank, about authenticity from stage. It's a big thing for me. there's just an authenticity in our preachers. In fact, one of the things when I'm working with a a growing preacher, one of the things I'm focused on the most is I want to hear you from stage the way I hear you in a conversation. I want to know it's the same person. we've we've all known preachers that get up on stage and have a persona on stage that doesn't match who they actually are off stage. I want I want to see the same persona. The the person I'm going to talk to in the lobby is the same person I'm I'm seeing on stage. and that's a big thing for us at 242. So I think that's that's a shift that we've seen in In the approach of how we we preach, but there's also a there's there's an element of that the more authentic we are about who who we are as a preacher, the more I'm able to connect with the person who's sitting in the in the congregation. Because when they see me living out the story, they see themselves able to live out the story as well. so for me, like preaching is very incarnational. And when I say incarnational, not only do I need to be living the gospel in my life. I need to see my life in the gospel. So when I'm presenting the gospel, I need you to see a piece of me. I want you to take a journey with me in my heart. and we'll talk more about like how we prep for preaching because that's changed dramatically for me over the past six months. for this reason, is I I want to take you on a journey. And the best way I can take you on a journey is to show you mine. So when I wrestle with a passage in well, we just finished a series on Revelation. Like I'm I wanna share with you in my proclamation of the gospel, I wanna share with you how what God has done in my heart and how I've wrestled through this and how I've dealt with this gospel in my life. And I I I think when people see that, they're able to say, Hey, I can I can be like that. If that sounds like my story, and they can connect with those things better. Dr. Frank Weller: So I'm gonna ask you for a moment of authenticity right here. Tony Johnson: Mm-hmm. Dr. Frank Weller: You have campuses in both Ann Arbor and in East Lansing. Tony Johnson: Yeah. Yep. Dr. Frank Weller: which is your favorite? Tony Johnson: I don't have a favorite campus. I have a favorite team, if that's what you're asking. I I actually Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Yeah. Tony Johnson: grew up a University of Michigan fan. I was a fan of the Fab Five. Now I I am I I will be honest and say like I I I didn't really follow college football and sports for most of my kids' life because I I'm a big NFL guy. I couldn't justify Saturdays and Sundays taking that away from my kids. Dr. Frank Weller: Are you a Colts fan? Tony Johnson: I am not. I'm a dolphins fan, actually. So right there. Dr. Frank Weller: How's that even possible, Tony? Tony Johnson: Yeah. for the first game I ever watched with my dad was the Super Bowl that they lost badly to the forty nine. I was five years old. I picked a team and it stuck. And so Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Yeah. Tony Johnson: I grew up watching Dan Marino play, which is was great to watch him play. But yeah. So don't have a favorite campus, but definitely Dr. Frank Weller: I'm just old enough that I remember Tony Johnson: a favorite team. Dr. Frank Weller: some I'm old enough that I remember Bob Greasy. Tony Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Bob I've Bob Greasy before actually. Dr. Frank Weller: Come on. Tony Johnson: Yeah. So he lives in Indiana. And Dr. Frank Weller: I did not know that. Tony Johnson: he came to there was a there was an event they do down in Evansville. It's a fundraiser for a baseball league. him and Don Mattingly are there every year. And then they bring in other Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Tony Johnson: like former athletes or whatever. So we gotta gotta meet him real quick. Dr. Frank Weller: I knew Don Mattingley was an Indiana guy. I didn't know that about Bob Greasy. Tony Johnson: Yeah, Don Matting's a good he's a good dude. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Is that right? Tony Johnson: He he actually attends a small I don't know about now. When I was down there, he used to attend a small Methodist church there in the Evansville area. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Very cool. But when you whether whether you're a U of fan or a Spartan fan, you gotta contextualize those sermon illustrations when you're in Ann Arbor in East Lansing, don't you? Yeah. Tony Johnson: You do. You do. You gotta have you gotta have some fun with it too. You know, Frank, it's funny. My first Sunday preaching here at two forty two in twenty twenty one was opening weekend for college football. you know, everyone's asking. I mean, everyone, Frank, is asking, who do you cheer for? Cause they wanted Dr. Frank Weller: Sure, yeah. Tony Johnson: to know. And I was on stage at Brighton, which is which if you don't know the geography, is in between the two. Probably more Michigan fans than Michigan State, but there's a there is a mix. Everyone's asking the question, I haven't answered it yet. I was able to get on stage. Fortunately for me, the night the day before, Ohio State had lost in the first game. Exactly. Exactly. Dr. Frank Weller: Well thank God. Anytime that happens, sorry BP2 listeners. Tony Johnson: So I stood on stage and I said, I know you guys are all wondering: does he a fan of Michigan or is he a fan of Michigan State? But we can all agree we're excited Ohio State lost. The crowd just erupts. They all except Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, yeah, right. Tony Johnson: for one guy afterwards who came up wearing an Ohio State shirt and said, I don't know if I can come back here now. Jokingly, but so I won people over with our common hatred. Dr. Frank Weller: Ohio State fans are yeah, they're just O O S U fans are built differently. Tony Johnson: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. Well, I want to just pause for a moment. Hey, and encourage our BP two listeners to check out our website at betterpreaching.org. The website contains our entire archive of podcast episodes as well as our weekly blog and resources from our BP two guests. It's powered by Great Lakes Christian College. Betterpreaching.org is the place for all things better preaching podcast. Tony, you began your career as you as you said in Broadcasting as you were a sales executive for a television station. And you you said that you felt lost or without purpose in that occupation. And that's part of what led you to your calling. So here's what I want to know: as you look back on that, can you see lessons that God was teaching you that you've transferred into vocational ministry from your time in the marketplace? Tony Johnson: you know, I don't I didn't spend a whole lot of time in the marketplace. because it was I was probably there for a year and a half before I I experienced the call to ministry and and left to go to seminary. the the environment that I was working in in advertising sales, I was being asked to lie, cheat, and steal, basically. And I was really struggling with a job because I wasn't able to be successful in the way that they wanted me to be successful because I didn't want to do some of the things I was being asked to do. I remember my exit lunch. So, you know, you're in sales, you say, hey, here's my two week notice. They're like, hey, let's go grab lunch tomorrow. They're they're just gonna let you go because it's just the way it is. So we went to lunch. Great guy. He was very kind. We had a good conversation. And at the end of it, he says, Tony, I think at the end of the day, your morals are just too high for this job. And I thought, man, there's only a couple of professions I can think of in the world that that would be true for. I didn't know it was going to be this one. And so he he said that, and it was it was kind of a shock at first, but then I started thinking about the call to ministry that I had been experiencing, and I realized that that during that process, I think God had been working on me in terms of integrity, and saying, Hey, like because there were plenty of opportunities. For me to sacrifice my integrity for the job. And and I refuse to. And so I look back at that and integrity's a big deal for me. we could go on and on, Frank, about the discouraging nature of the number of pastors who who have moral failings, integrity failings. but I I think it's it's such an important thing for me, partially because I look back at that time and I see what God had done as he was calling me to ministry. I was going through a test of what whether was his test or whatever, going through a test about my own integrity and what kind of person do I want to be? And that that was the question that was being asked. What kind of person will I be? What kind of pastor will I be? What kind of husband will I be? What kind of father will I be? and so I look back, I think that was the biggest lesson from that season. Dr. Frank Weller: You had mentioned in in the our pre-podcast interview that Henry Blackaby's book Experiencing God played a role in your your calling. Tony Johnson: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: And it I think that's something that many folks in in our generation, I I'm a I'm a little older than you. Okay, a lot older than you, but Tony Johnson: Not much time. Dr. Frank Weller: 59 this year. but Blackaby talks about that too, right? That that you Part of what you were going through i in in your marketplace ministry career was God and the Holy Spirit moving you in a specific direction. Tony Johnson: Yeah, and even when you're unaware of it. Because I had no at the time I had no clue that's what was going on. It's just like this is this is what the world is like, apparently. and it's when you it's always when you look back that you see what the Holy Spirit was actually doing in your life. I mean, I can look back all the way to high school, Frank, and in the time I spent as the high school radio station station manager, and what God was doing to prepare me even for today, some of the things that I learned. Yep. Dr. Frank Weller: Okay, let's just pause for just a moment. Your high school had a radio station. Tony Johnson: We did. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, my my high school had a livestock judging team. Tony Johnson: Where did you go to school? Dr. Frank Weller: I went to school in northeast Indiana. So you were Tony Johnson: Okay. Dr. Frank Weller: in Fort Wayne, I I was I went to Garrett, Garrett High School. Tony Johnson: yeah. Okay, you weren't that far away from Dr. Frank Weller: No, no, not that far away, but in some ways really far away from you. Tony Johnson: That's yeah, well, it sounds like it, yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Radio yeah. So I sorry to interrupt. Back to you at the radio station. Tony Johnson: No, you're good. I think I think just every step of the way, you see what God is doing in your life. And so here's here's the great thing about it all. You can look back and see all those steps. the fun thing now is to say, I wonder what God is doing now that I'll discover ten years from now. I just Dr. Frank Weller: yeah. Tony Johnson: don't because I just don't see it. So you're you're always open and aware, but I think sometimes it's in hindsight, you're like, that that's what God is doing. I didn't know that. And I think God sometimes is like, Of course you didn't know that. But Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's right. You you mentioned your daughters headed to Huntington this fall, and I went to seminary at Huntington, and one of the books we looked at there was J. Robert Clinton's book, The Making of a Leader. And Clinton says you can go back and you can kind of map a leadership journey and you can see all along the way those instances where God was forming you and shaping you. And you're right, Tony, it's a whole lot easier to see in the rearview mirror than it is at times looking out the windshield. Tony Johnson: Yeah. All all the time. And it's also the fun part about parenting, too, because sometimes as a parent, you can see what God is doing in their life before they do, before they realize it. also I'll share this. one of the things I I told you before the Huntington is the place for my daughter. That's where she needs to be. I'm convinced of it. she is excited about it. She's playing JV basketball for them, and which is great because it's not As intense. She gets to play ball. There's a community of girls. when when she got the offer to do that, they you know, you know how it works. You get a small scholarship for being out of state student, or if you get an athletic scholarship, you don't get that one. It's the same amount of money, it's whatever. So she gets a small scholarship to play JB basketball, and she's like, Dad, I can say now I'm going to school on an athletic scholarship. And I was like, Dr. Frank Weller: Right. Tony Johnson: You absolutely can. You can say that. I said, But in internally, what I was thinking is. I wonder if you have forgotten the dream that you once had to play college basketball. And what God is doing is He's making your dreams come true. And I think she knows that now. Initially, I think it was kind of lost on her. She didn't connect those dots, but like God has put in in your life the thing that you hoped for and dreamed for. And the the beautiful thing is, it probably knowing my daughter, it was not in her best interest. To play the varsity, like intense every night kind of thing, this J V thing is the right rhythm for her. so you look back as a father and say, Man, God is good. He is so, so good. Dr. Frank Weller: Tony, we've got Huntington on the schedule this year. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tony Johnson: Do ya? All right, we're gonna check out. We'll be there. Is it at your place or Dr. Frank Weller: no, it's I'm pretty sure it's a guarantee game. I'm pretty sure we're getting paid to go down there. And Tony Johnson: nice. Dr. Frank Weller: yeah. hopefully we only get go down there once and they're like, Yeah, we can't have you here anymore. Yeah, yeah. Tony Johnson: Because you you were so good. That's why. Yeah, I get ya. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's that's what we're hoping. We got a great coach for our women's team. She Played four years at the University of Michigan, holds the record for most points scored by a woman in a single season at U of And she played in the WNBA. So Tony Johnson: No kidding. good for her, yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: yeah, that's pretty solid coach leading the women's program and discipling those Tony Johnson: Yeah, no kidding. Dr. Frank Weller: discipling those students and pretty fired up about the direction of that program. But Tony Johnson: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: that's I guess for another podcast. let me ask you one more question before we go. What's one bit of preaching advice you'd offer to your younger self? Tony Johnson: my goodness, to my younger self. I think find your voice. one of the things that I've been figuring out is how to preach and prepare that allows me to have my true authentic voice. and I think early on in in ministry for preaching, I I was trying to emulate people. I I would see what other people are doing. I could Frank, I can I there are sermons I remember that I was like, man, I stole. I stole not just the content. I stole the delivery. And I was young. I didn't know. I was like, well, he did it. It was great. And I'll I'll do it and it'll be great. And it wasn't bad. It just wasn't me. and it took a while. I think this is common for a lot of young preachers. it took a while to figure out like, what is my voice? How has God designed me? Cause if God designed me and he created me and he called me, the best thing I can do is be me. and it took some time to get there. So I wish if I could go back, I would tell my younger self. Stop emulating people and just be true to who you are, who God has called you to be. Dr. Frank Weller: Love it. And we'll have to explore that in another episode of the podcast. But for now, hey, listen, I want to I want to say thank you to Tony Johnson. Appreciate you being on, man. Yeah, absolutely. And Tony Johnson: Thanks for having me, Frank. I appreciate it. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: also want to thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. I want to thank our BP2 community for listening to and supporting the Better Preaching podcast. Remember, you can find great resources at betterpreaching.org and learn more about our sponsors at glccc.edu. Join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching makes a bigger impact.