Latest / Low to Grow / From BlackRock to Brain Health VC: Caitlin Ner on Bipolar, Burnout & Neurotechnology

Transcript

From BlackRock to Brain Health VC: Caitlin Ner on Bipolar, Burnout & Neurotechnology · Low to Grow

0:00
It all happened after a suicide attempt where I was hospitalized
0:03
and put on a psychiatric hold. It was after over a decade of
0:07
suicidal ideation. Painting now is the Director of
0:10
Operations at Simon Ventures, helping to invest into the next
0:13
wave of mental and brain health technologies.
0:15
However, interestingly, Katie's career actually started off
0:18
doing global infrastructure investment at Black Frog, and
0:22
this comes after she studied economics and computer science
0:25
at Harvard University. The catalyst that led to that
0:28
career tradition? It really stemmed from one of
0:30
the lowest parts of my life. Welcome to Low to Grow, the
0:34
podcast transforming life's toughest moments into
0:37
opportunity for growth. I'm Annie, a Focus Under 30
0:40
technology founder whose entrepreneurship journey ran
0:43
parallel to a mental health awakening.
0:46
In every episode, I sit down with inspiring individuals and
0:50
delve into how they managed to turn their personal or
0:53
professional challenges into opportunities for growth.
0:57
If you're facing uncertainty in your life, feeling down, or
1:01
simply need a kick of inspiration to keep moving
1:03
forward, this is your space for the honest and uplifting
1:07
conversations that you will want to hear.
1:10
Hit follow so you never miss an episode and let's dive in.
1:15
Today, I am delighted to introduce someone who has worn
1:19
more hats in her career than most people try on in a
1:22
lifetime. Haiti now is the Director of
1:24
Operations at Simon Ventures, where she is helping to invest
1:28
into the next wave of mental and brain health technologies.
1:31
Before that, she scaled growth and operations at Cerebral,
1:35
which is the mental health startup Talking Access to Mental
1:38
Health. However, interestingly,
1:40
Caitlin's career actually started off doing global
1:43
infrastructure investment at BlackRock.
1:45
And this comes after she studied economics and computer science
1:48
at Harvard University. She is also now doing a master's
1:52
in Apply Neuroscience at King's College London.
1:55
And to me, Caitlin is a living example of what it looks like to
1:59
build a career that's not just impressive on paper, but also
2:02
deeply mission driven. Caitlin, welcome to the Low to
2:05
Grow podcast. Thank you so much for having me.
2:08
Wonderful. Well, Caitlin, who do you think
2:11
will benefit the most from listening to our conversation
2:13
today? So I think anyone who feels like
2:17
they're behind life when they really aren't, anyone who is
2:21
navigating their sense of self in this chaotic world and anyone
2:25
who is tackling a mental illness in their career.
2:27
Right, let's just dive in then. You studied at Harvard and then
2:31
went on to work at Black Frog before transitioning into the
2:34
more mental health aspect of your career.
2:37
Could you tell me a bit more about how that transition
2:40
happened? Yeah.
2:42
So, you know, I started my career in infrastructure and it
2:45
really started because I was interested in both having
2:49
investing experience but also having impact experience with
2:53
infrastructure. I was able to invest in a lot of
2:56
socially impactful causes like renewable energy, airports and
2:59
more. It was a great starting point
3:01
for my career, but I quickly learned it was essentially
3:05
during the pandemic that it wasn't where I wanted to be.
3:08
You know, I started working on deals and reading a lot of
3:12
engineering reports and operating reports and kind of
3:15
losing alignment with what I wanted to do and where I was at.
3:19
How did you move from investment into mental health?
3:23
The catalyst that led to that career transition, it really
3:26
stemmed from one of the lowest parts of my life.
3:29
It all happened after a suicide attempt where I was hospitalized
3:33
and put on a psychiatric hold. Now, a lot LED up to that.
3:36
You know, it was after over a decade of suicidal ideation, a
3:40
really stressful work environment In the COVID-19
3:43
pandemic, I was an investor at a large infrastructure fund over
3:47
at BlackRock. It was a multi trillion dollar
3:49
fund. I invested in assets like
3:52
renewable energy, toll roads, airports.
3:55
And during the pandemic, I moved out of my New York apartment and
3:58
actually moved back in with my parents.
4:01
I was really lucky to have a very safe family environment.
4:04
But like many others, I was socially isolated away from
4:08
people my age for nearly a year. You know, that isolation coupled
4:11
with extremely long working hours, working on multiple
4:15
deals, it really led to chronic stress, and I started to fall
4:19
behind. Even on work.
4:21
I started to feel like my technical skills weren't
4:23
building as fast as possible, and we were understaffed at
4:26
work. That stress turned into what I
4:29
thought was depression, so I asked my doctor to prescribe me
4:33
with SSRI medication and that really didn't help the symptoms
4:38
at all. Now around spring 2021, I was
4:40
also very active on Twitter and affiliated with an
4:44
entrepreneurial community called Launch House.
4:47
It was series AA16Z back startup hosted a lot of events and
4:51
programming for early stage founders and during that time I
4:55
was actually invited to a weekend hackathon in this multi
4:57
$1,000,000 mansion. Now imagine, you know, almost a
5:02
year of isolation and then suddenly being put in this
5:05
environment with passionate entrepreneurs building exciting
5:09
products. Suddenly in this flashy
5:12
environment, it felt like I was on top of the world.
5:15
I felt like I had a switch. I was so energized.
5:19
I loved what I was working on. During the hackathon.
5:22
I met so many incredible people, but I was also messaging
5:26
hundreds of people offline. I later learned that this was
5:30
episode of mania. I was not sleeping at all, 0
5:34
hours per night for four days straight, running 15 miles per
5:38
day. And you know, with this matic
5:41
high came a eventual crash. Like I mentioned, the suicide
5:45
attempt. There I learned that I had
5:48
mental illness called bipolar one, which many people know to
5:52
have matic highs and depressive lows, but also symptoms like
5:56
psychosis, you know, hallucinations of delusions and
6:00
also suicidal thinking. You know, that hospitalization
6:04
really made me have that mental shift away from the traditional
6:08
finance world into the mental health sort of world.
6:12
Wow, that's a really profound life experience, Caitlin, and
6:16
also evidently a very difficult one for you to have gone through
6:20
and come out of. So thank you so much for sharing
6:22
that. I'm quite curious to understand
6:26
in the build up that led to this.
6:28
Crash. How many months do you think
6:31
that all of this had been festering within you?
6:34
I think the evident depression was maybe around six or seven
6:39
months. You know, when we first
6:41
transitioned to remote work, it was very flexible.
6:43
I was continue to work on, but I started to experience lower
6:47
energy. It was very difficult to get out
6:49
of bed, difficult to write emails, while I actually had to
6:53
work on these really intensive deals with my team at work.
6:57
But I would push on even if I felt low energy because of the
7:01
expectations to go to work, to perform at my best, and to
7:06
continue on. I always told myself that
7:09
everyone was stressed during this time.
7:10
It was a pandemic, there was a lot of uncertainty, There were a
7:14
lot of people that were ill, and I always compared myself to the
7:18
broader environment that everyone was experiencing this.
7:21
So I think that's what also prevented me from getting more
7:24
holistic care is because I thought I was just one of many
7:28
instead of really paying attention to getting more
7:31
adequate care to understand what was happening to me.
7:34
Did anyone around you notice the change in you or suggest for you
7:38
to get help whether it's a family friend or a colleague?
7:42
Yeah. So I'm very lucky that I was
7:44
living with my parents. They noticed that there was that
7:47
change. I was very different when I was
7:49
speaking at home outside of work.
7:51
I was definitely not as energized to even perform in my
7:56
job or to talk about hobbies or anything outside of work.
8:00
And that's what initially pushed me to get the depression
8:03
medication. And I think that was the
8:05
education piece. I I did not know what bipolar
8:08
was. I have heard of depression.
8:11
It was evident that I had symptoms of depression.
8:14
So I just thought, OK, let me get on medication to prevent
8:17
this. But of course the medication for
8:19
an illness like depression is very different than bipolar
8:22
disorder. Did you speak to anyone about
8:27
how you were feeling in that period that led to the four days
8:31
of mania? At that point, I didn't have a
8:35
professional like a therapist to really dive into it.
8:38
Like I would briefly say that I was stressed to my family, but I
8:41
didn't go down into the details. You know, stress is common in in
8:47
very high pressure jobs. So I thought that it was just
8:51
the norm. So I didn't dig into why I was
8:54
feeling that way. I didn't dig into the suicidal
8:57
ideation that was happening and mustering inside of me.
9:00
I tried to avoid it rather than address it.
9:03
And I think that's what led to some of the more major aspects
9:08
of the crises, is that I didn't have the right tools to address
9:13
it. That makes sense.
9:16
And I know earlier you mentioned that you were leaving at home
9:18
with her parents and that they didn't notice that change in
9:20
you. Can you remember how they maybe
9:23
try to point it out to you or talk about it with you in that
9:26
period? Yeah, So I always was able to
9:31
eat meals with my parents, and I think that was one of the
9:33
luckiest components. I had a great support system
9:37
during this very stressful time. And I remember my parents
9:41
starting to ask questions about like, should you stay in this
9:45
job? And it wasn't about diagnosis.
9:48
It was more of is this environment the right one for
9:51
you? Maybe you should take a break.
9:54
They recognize that, you know, the job was not the best fit for
9:57
me, but I had a lot of pressure to stay as it was a great title.
10:02
It was a great firm. I was constantly amazed with my
10:07
colleagues. They were all very intelligent,
10:09
so it was very difficult to take a step to leave.
10:13
But my parents immediately knew that it wasn't the best fit for
10:17
me, so they were very open about that.
10:20
It wasn't about you need to do something, it was more curiosity
10:24
and open endedness to try to figure out a solution together.
10:30
Understood. For you, looking back to help
10:34
someone in the audience who might be in a similar position
10:37
in the lead up to doing something quite drastic, are
10:40
there things or signs that you wish your colleagues or your
10:44
friends or family could have spotted or maybe actions that
10:47
they could have taken so that you wouldn't have had to
10:50
actually, you know, face such a drastic event in your own life?
10:56
It's very important to have psycho education even if you
10:59
don't have a mental illness of your own.
11:01
My parents, for example, never sought out clinical care, so
11:05
they didn't have the psychoeducation to recommend a
11:07
therapist to me. I'd say with my colleagues, I
11:11
didn't open up to them, so they saw me performing and turning in
11:15
projects. So I don't think there's
11:16
anything that my bosses or my colleagues could have done to
11:19
prevent that because I had, you know, that facade in the work
11:22
environment. But I'd say that even if you
11:26
don't have a mental illness now and you want to prepare for the
11:30
opportunity to support someone else, think about what types of
11:33
professionals you couldn't refer your friends and family to.
11:37
Because when you are depressed or when you are manic or you're
11:40
experiencing a mental illness, it's very difficult to take the
11:44
steps to get care. It's difficult enough to know
11:47
who to turn to, how to pay for care, where to go for your
11:53
specific illness. So if you do that preparation
11:56
ahead of time, you'll be able to simply send over a resource.
12:00
Make it as easy as possible for that friend in need or that
12:03
family member in need to start to prevent anything more made
12:08
during their life. Being had experiences that you
12:12
have had, if you could go back to what would you advise your
12:15
younger self to do differently? I'd say that I would advise my
12:20
younger self to not avoid difficult conversations.
12:23
When I was growing up and even in my initial work environments
12:27
when I felt like I needed help or I didn't know the answer or I
12:32
didn't have the right professional care around me, I
12:35
never spoke up because that's a difficult conversation.
12:38
You have to confront the difficulties with your
12:41
colleagues or your family members if you have those
12:43
difficult conversations. But I always say now that if you
12:49
avoid difficult conversations, you are allowing yourself to
12:52
have short term comfort over long term dysregulation.
12:58
So if you address those difficult conversations now, you
13:02
will be more regulated in the long term.
13:05
That makes sense. And interestingly, I think
13:07
that's what a lot of other people thought I've spoken to
13:09
also say it's to not avoid difficult conversations and to
13:12
actually talk it out. And the talking is actually a
13:15
process of processing those emotions for yourself while so
13:19
getting a conversation started with people who are important to
13:22
you. Really, really appreciate you
13:23
mentioning that. Caitlin, What resource do you
13:27
wish that you had back when you first started your job at
13:30
BlackRock? So it was actually a resource
13:34
that BlackRock had available and I only found out once my
13:39
director really helps me out with my medical leave is I think
13:44
a lot more corporations need to have mental health support for
13:47
their employees, but not just have that as a partnership with
13:50
companies and organizations, but really market that to their
13:53
employees. Make it a conversation as you
13:55
onboard your employees. I later learned that BlackRock
13:59
actually had available teletherapy care for their
14:01
employees, but it it was not something that I knew.
14:04
I didn't have that on my phone. I didn't have it on my laptop.
14:07
It was only during the moment of crisis that I found out that I
14:10
could seek out a therapist covered by the health insurance
14:14
provided by my employer. I think it's more about knowing
14:18
what resources are available to you and seeking out professional
14:21
care even when you don't have a crisis at hand, even to prepare
14:26
for any challenges that you'll have in the future.
14:29
Understood. And I'm quite curious to
14:31
understand what your journey of learning about and trying to
14:35
understand what professional support meant for you looked
14:37
like. Because I know that a lot of
14:39
people that I speak to, especially if they grow up in
14:42
families where, you know, perhaps they are the first ones
14:44
to want to seek professional mental health support.
14:47
There's almost a sense of not knowing where to start.
14:49
So quite curious to hear about how that was like for you.
14:52
Yes, it was a really long journey because you know, first
14:55
and foremost, even getting psychiatric medications, it was
14:58
not something that my family was used to, that I was used to.
15:02
So even knowing who to turn to, what psychiatrist was
15:07
specialized in bipolar one versus depression versus other
15:11
mental illnesses. Also within the US ecosystem,
15:15
the healthcare insurance industry is quite complicated,
15:17
especially for just a normal employee that's trying to
15:21
navigate all the pricing and the eligibility amongst providers
15:25
with your insurance. So I remember trying to sign up
15:28
for a psychiatrist, I had health insurance and I thought it would
15:31
be covered by my insurance, but then getting bill at the end of
15:34
the period because I had to pay out of out of hand because it
15:38
wasn't covered. So I learned a lot about
15:40
navigating through the insurance world, navigating through
15:44
psychiatrists that were specialized across different
15:47
types of care. And then also on the therapy
15:50
side, you know, I started off, you know, being really afraid to
15:54
open up about what was happening in my life.
15:57
I started off with one of the broader teletherapy platforms
16:00
called Better Help. It was a great starting point.
16:02
I was able to get initial care, but I started to realize that I
16:06
wanted different modalities of therapy.
16:08
I think talk therapy is one option, but there's a lot of
16:12
different methods to deliver therapy that I only learned
16:15
about through the process of seeking care.
16:18
Interesting. What are the modalities of
16:20
therapy that you've explored? I've explored a ton.
16:24
So, you know, started off with a type of therapy that is very
16:28
popular called cognitive behavioral therapy.
16:30
So very much a talk therapy based modality.
16:33
And then I also explored acceptance and commitment
16:37
therapy as well as EMDR, which is very much trauma based.
16:42
I also tried alternative modality called brain spotting,
16:45
which is also focused on trauma, where a therapist holds a wand,
16:50
navigates to a certain part of your brain, and then processes
16:53
different traumas and emotions with you as an objective
16:57
observer. You know, a type of modality
16:59
that a lot of people don't know and it's still a very new
17:02
modality. I've also experienced
17:05
psychedelic guiding in an international setting where I
17:08
had a guide navigate psilocybin experience with me and then
17:13
going through my experiences, you know, all the way through to
17:16
childhood as well. So some therapies are more
17:19
accepted and and known in broader society and then some
17:23
modalities that are still finding its way to broader
17:27
acceptance and understanding. How did you come across the
17:31
lesson Known Modalities of Therapy?
17:34
I mean, one thing with me that I realized is I'm a person that
17:38
talks to a lot of people and gets inspired by other people's
17:42
journeys. And I learned about brain
17:44
spotting from someone who also experienced this type of
17:47
modality. She gave me some of the benefits
17:50
that was outside of the traditional talk therapy.
17:53
And because of her referral, I was able to try it myself and
17:56
had a wonderful relationship with an integrative therapist
17:59
that really helped me process a lot of trauma that was stuck in
18:03
my body and also some blocked memories that I wasn't unable to
18:07
uncover in traditional methods of therapy.
18:09
And then with the psychedelic community, it's a very global
18:13
community of folks that are talking about different
18:16
modalities of care, different psychedelic therapeutics as
18:19
well. And that was a lot just driven
18:21
by curiosity. I knew that it was a very
18:24
stigmatized subject. You know, a lot of people might
18:28
view it as controversial, but there are places, places beyond
18:31
the legal landscape that you can do as.
18:34
You can find guides that can help you navigate this type of
18:38
modality, especially in international settings.
18:41
Interesting. And then Caitlin, I know that,
18:43
you know, it sounds like you've had this longer journey, which
18:46
really was catalyzed by the episodes that you had was
18:50
working at Black Frog. Did you then go back to work at
18:52
Black Frog, or did you immediately even try to navigate
18:55
towards another type of role? So, you know, working at a
18:59
company as globally recognized and successful as BlackRock, one
19:04
of the best things with BlackRock is he had excellent
19:06
medical leave. You know, coming out of this
19:09
burnout and this experience, I thought, you know, I needed to
19:13
rest. I needed to have a break from my
19:16
career. And I had a really wonderful
19:19
director on my team that was there with me, you know, through
19:23
the process and helped me take that medical leave, not just
19:27
immediately quit, but really take the time to find out what I
19:30
needed to do next in terms of my clinical care, in terms of where
19:34
I wanted to live, what I wanted to do, if I wanted to take a
19:38
break or go back to BlackRock. And you know, the the best thing
19:41
about that is though, it was the catalyst that really made me
19:45
make this change in my career. They really supported me in
19:48
finding that next step. I love that.
19:51
Could you share a bit more about then you know, the emotions that
19:54
you went through to pivot your career?
19:58
Yes. So one of the things that I did
20:01
initially coming out of BlackRock as one ambitious type
20:03
of person does, is I was thinking, how can I make this
20:08
life experience into a startup? So instead of fully resting in
20:12
the very beginning, I was, you know, very fascinated and
20:15
connected with entrepreneurial communities at the time.
20:18
There were some teletherapy companies that were emerging
20:21
back in 2021 and I was thinking of really segmenting into youth
20:26
teletherapy. So what I did, you know, not
20:29
having full time startup experience, I drove into the
20:32
industry myself and it was actually quite healing for me
20:36
because I was interviewing, you know, teenagers that were
20:39
experiencing mental health issues, was talking to
20:42
therapists that were trying to build out practices for youth.
20:46
I was talking to insurance providers about some of the
20:48
issues with the current system. And so even if this startup
20:52
failed, I didn't reach that next level of funding or didn't have
20:58
a long experience with this company because I was very
21:03
interested in the space and dove deep and spoke to a lot of
21:06
people in the mental health industry outside of having a
21:09
job. You know, through my own
21:12
curiosity, I was able to get a lot of industry experience and
21:16
kind of make a bet on what kinds of companies could actually grow
21:20
in the ecosystem. So I ended up closing down that
21:23
startup and joined a really fast growing cell therapy startup
21:26
called Cerebral. It was a massive Unicorn, you
21:30
know, became a Unicorn in about two years.
21:33
And I LED growth and operations there and was also part of the
21:36
insurance department. And like I mentioned, the US
21:39
healthcare industry, especially with insurance can be quite
21:41
complicated. So I was working with very
21:44
passionate team members both in providing care to a wide range
21:48
of mental illnesses as well as having partnerships with these
21:52
insurance providers, navigating the complicated aspects of
21:56
billing, navigating new product launches and different types of
22:00
illnesses as well. It took that you know,
22:02
experience as a founder and really applied it to a bigger,
22:07
fast growing startup in this space.
22:09
You were really in the trenches of helping to scale access to
22:14
good quality mental health care. I wanted to ask you as someone
22:17
who's also operated in that really high pressure startup
22:21
environment, what is something that you learn about growth and
22:25
also what is something that you learn about yourself over your
22:27
time there? A very interesting aspect about
22:31
Cerebral was it was one of the fastest growing mental health
22:33
startups in the industry. And I saw the impacts of venture
22:37
capital on a startup. You know, when you have venture
22:40
funding, you have to scale to certain degrees.
22:43
You're looking for certain revenue, for certain changes
22:46
within the products and more with hiring and and more.
22:49
We ended up having some controversies within the company
22:53
because we were scaling so quickly.
22:55
We had hundreds of thousands of patients and within healthcare
22:58
products, you're not just providing a service, you're
23:01
providing healthcare. There is a patient at the end of
23:03
the line that has an illness. There's a patient that might
23:07
potentially have comorbidities with multiple illnesses.
23:10
And so when you're building in healthcare, you're not mainly
23:14
just seeking revenue, you are also providing the highest
23:17
quality of care that you need. And so when I saw, you know,
23:20
these controversies at Cerebral, it really gave me this outlook
23:24
that there is opportunity for mental health startups and brain
23:28
health startups to seek venture funding.
23:31
But as startups such as this start to scale, we need to
23:34
really prioritize quality of care and the patient journey as
23:39
much as growth. And I think that's something
23:41
that you don't see in every industry where you don't have
23:44
health and the end of the line and a life at the end of the
23:46
line. I've really taken this
23:48
experience here in my journey now as a venture capitalist
23:52
because we speak to a lot of founders who want to grow and
23:55
scale quickly, which is a very important component of the
23:57
industry. But putting the patient, whoever
24:00
you're treating, at the end of the line as the most important
24:03
priority of your product is essential to whatever you build.
24:09
Is that something that can be lost along the way of trying to
24:12
scale? Yes, I definitely think it can
24:14
be. You know there I talk a lot
24:16
about founder mental health within the broader
24:20
entrepreneurial ecosystem. And the reality is there is
24:23
always external pressures to be able to grow, to reach your next
24:27
funding milestone or to get that next 100,000 patients.
24:31
And especially as you grow your company, you start to really
24:34
delegate your your experience and your operating experience to
24:38
more people and start to be more separated from the end patient
24:43
that is a part of your product. What I like to remind my
24:46
founders that I speak to is that at the end of the day, with
24:50
within all these mental and brain health startups, we are
24:52
here to change the way the illness is treated and we really
24:56
want to make that impact in the patient's life.
25:00
Even if there is that pressure to make a certain revenue figure
25:04
or to get to that next milestone, you always have to
25:06
prioritize the patient. And Caitlin, now you are a
25:10
venture capitalist with Simon Ventures, where you invest into
25:13
brain analyzing mental health companies.
25:15
Not all venture capital investors have operational
25:19
backgrounds, especially founder backgrounds.
25:21
How do you think that your experience of having tried to
25:25
build a company as a founder in the mental health space gives
25:28
you an additional edge? I think it's really, really
25:32
useful because when you speak to a founder, you know, they're
25:35
often buttoned up, they have their numbers at hand, they have
25:38
the product memorized back and forth.
25:40
But the reality is entrepreneurship is messy.
25:43
You know, when you're an early stage founder like the
25:45
precedent, see Sage Founders that we speak to, it's very
25:48
exciting. You have a big mission and
25:50
vision for the company that you're trying to build.
25:52
But the reality is there's a lot of uncertainty in terms of a lot
25:56
of the challenges you will face, a lot of the product changes
25:59
that will happen in your company.
26:01
There will be stress, there will be hiring, there will be firing.
26:04
There will be a lot of opportunities for you to grow as
26:06
a leader. And because of my experience
26:09
both as a founder, as an and as an operator at a growth stage
26:12
company, I think that I have that lived experience to both
26:16
advise founders with the type of decisions they make, whether
26:19
that's go to market decisions, product decisions, hiring
26:23
decisions. And I also have a lot of empathy
26:26
towards the founder that it's impossible to have all the
26:28
answers. And that's why you should seek
26:31
out advisors for support as well as your own teammates to be able
26:36
to supplement a lot of the things that you don't know.
26:38
I'll ask you the flip side of the question, which is now that
26:42
you have been a venture capitalist for a while, what is
26:45
one thing that you have started to value more, which you perhaps
26:49
didn't when you were a founder or an operator?
26:52
Yeah. I think one of the best things
26:54
that I have really developed as a venture capital investor is
26:58
the ability to quickly learn so many different industries and
27:02
technologies very quickly. I think when you're working as
27:06
an operator or founder, you're really dialed into one specific
27:10
company, one specific product. As a venture capital investor,
27:14
you are essentially curious about so many different
27:17
questions technologies. You are able to ask questions to
27:22
people that are even more experienced than you in whatever
27:26
technology that you're interested in exploring.
27:29
Whilst before I was more dialed in into one specific company as
27:33
an investor, now if I'm interested in a topic I simply
27:37
reach out to as many people that are already dialed into that
27:40
industry and start to ramp up my own understanding of the
27:44
technology at hand. And I guess the natural question
27:48
would be, what kind of innovations are you most excited
27:51
about in the mental health space?
27:53
I'm incredibly excited about neurotechnologies or
27:56
neurotechnology can both be mentally invasive and invasive.
27:59
We have a couple companies that we've invested in that are
28:02
typically more minimally invasive.
28:04
Part of the interesting aspects of neurotechnology is you can
28:07
essentially use electricity to modulate parts of the brain that
28:11
are affected by certain mental illnesses like treatment
28:14
resistant depression, anxiety and more.
28:17
A lot of the patients that seek out neurotech, they've tried
28:19
many medications, they've tried so many therapies, but nothing
28:23
is working, hence the treatment resistant case.
28:26
Neurotech offers a new modality to quiet down and modulate the
28:32
parts of the brain that is affected by these mental
28:35
illnesses. So very excited about this
28:36
broader industry. Are there any companies that you
28:40
want to give a shout out to? Yes.
28:42
So within the neurotech space, I'm very excited about a couple
28:45
companies in our portfolio. So Motif Neurotech really
28:48
focused on treatment resistant depression.
28:50
They've created a minimally invasive implant that modulates
28:53
the part of the brain for depression.
28:55
It was founded by an assistant professor in Rice University
28:59
that spent over a decade working on miniaturizing the device that
29:03
sends the electrical signals and after a career in academia, was
29:07
ready to commercialize his research and is now in early
29:11
clinical trials for their company.
29:13
And then another company that I'm very excited about in
29:15
neurotech is called Neurod. They're very focused on
29:19
improving attention for folks. So, you know, ADHD is a mental
29:23
illness that is specifically impacted by attention.
29:26
But they also have hopes to widen their products for anyone
29:30
who's seeking to have better attention.
29:32
An interesting part about their product is they also allow brain
29:36
scanning live. You're able to get a data set of
29:39
your brain on a daily basis, as well as the stimulation that
29:42
they provide to increase that attention.
29:45
OK, wow, interesting. Are there any common challenges
29:48
that founders are trying to innovate in neurotech phase?
29:53
I think the reality is the ecosystem is really early, it's
29:57
really young and there's a lot of uncertainty, especially for
30:01
clinical neurotech in terms of the regulation to get a product
30:05
approved and sold within, for example, the US market.
30:08
And I can imagine also in the European market.
30:10
If it's a consumer product, less so.
30:12
But a lot of these products that really want to target clinical
30:16
diagnosis, they really need to think through regulation and how
30:20
to actually get that approval for the product to reach
30:22
patients. Understood Caitlin, I want to
30:25
take the conversation into the subjects that you have studied.
30:29
So I know that at Harvard, I guess when you were doing your
30:32
first degree it was in economics and computer science and now you
30:35
are doing a Master's at King's College London more in
30:38
neuroscience. What motivated you to apply to
30:40
do about Master's? Yes.
30:43
So back when I was in college, I was a very motivated student and
30:47
took classes outside of my own course load.
30:49
So it took some psychology courses, took some neuroscience
30:52
courses, some environmental science courses as well.
30:55
I knew that I wanted to land in economics and computer science
30:58
because I was interested in business, could really see the
31:01
applications of those degrees for my career.
31:04
But essentially, I decided to get a masters at King's College
31:07
London, which is an excellent program for working
31:10
professionals because I was really motivated by my time at
31:14
time adventures. You know, I'd speak to founders
31:16
who had pH, DS in neuroscience, professors that spent their
31:20
careers working in neuroscience. And as a venture capitalist, I
31:24
was able to ask a lot of questions about their
31:27
technologies, their products, But, you know, started to see
31:30
where I wanted to gain a little bit of a deeper understanding of
31:34
some core neuroscience, foundational theories and a
31:38
better understanding of the brain.
31:40
I knew that I wanted to really dedicate my career to the mental
31:43
and brain health industry. And so I thought to go back to
31:47
academia, really gained that foundational understanding,
31:50
really get, you know, those advanced modules into certain
31:53
areas of neuroscience as well to be able to supplement my career
31:56
in venture and then also in startups.
31:59
What advice would you give to other young professionals who
32:02
are trying to stay relevant in industries where maybe AI tools
32:06
are increasingly more commonly used?
32:10
I'd say the reality is similar to how AI is being increasingly
32:14
used in every industry, all the information for every industry
32:19
is also available online. You're able to search and even
32:23
use these AI platforms to get up to speed with absolutely
32:26
anything that you're curious about.
32:28
And then the other aspect of this is really speak to people
32:32
who are a few steps ahead of you.
32:34
It might be someone who is in academia instead of startups of
32:39
someone who is a director whilst you're still starting out as an
32:42
analyst for example. You should be able to have these
32:45
conversations to get a better understanding of what else you
32:47
need to know to pursue that part of your career in your industry,
32:52
to stay as relevant and up to date as possible.
32:55
And for you, Caitlin, who are some people who have really
32:58
inspired you as you've begun really delving into the space of
33:02
mental health and now that you're starting your master's
33:05
too. So I'm going to use a cop out
33:08
answer because it's people that I work with, my general
33:11
partners, Greg Kubin and Mathias Sierra Brinski.
33:14
Even before I joined the firm, I actually followed their podcast
33:17
and learned a lot about the psychedelic and mental health
33:20
industry and the types of founders that they engaged with.
33:23
What I really admire about the way they're navigating through
33:26
this space is, you know, they don't have a traditional
33:29
neuroscience PhD background, They don't have a master's in
33:32
neuroscience. But they really learned the
33:34
industry by actually doing the work, investing in the space, by
33:38
meeting founders, by staying as up to date with all the
33:42
innovations, by creating events in the ecosystem, and by
33:46
attending all these conferences. It really shows that you don't
33:50
have to have an entire singular career.
33:53
You can start off in one industry and learn another
33:56
industry at any point of your career as well.
33:58
So yes, they are definitely the people that I admire the most in
34:03
in the ecosystem. And for any of our listeners who
34:06
might be building in the mental health or brain health space,
34:09
when should they reach out to you or your colleagues at Simon
34:13
Ventures? Yeah, so we're always excited to
34:16
meet early stage founders. You know, it can even just be an
34:19
idea and you don't have a product yet.
34:22
We'd be very excited to brainstorm with you as well.
34:24
My e-mail is probably going to be shared with the listeners of
34:28
this podcast. I'm always available to discuss.
34:31
So whether or not you have a deck that's ready or you're
34:34
still just thinking an idea, we're excited to hear your
34:37
product and hear about your company and really work with you
34:41
to build a successful and sustainable company in this
34:43
space. What type of companies would
34:46
Simon Ventures typically want to be investing in?
34:50
We have a general thesis in mental and brain health, but I
34:53
like to explain that we invest in a wide range of technologies.
34:56
We do both the biotech companies, so pharmaceuticals as
35:00
well as tech companies. You know, I mentioned neurotech
35:03
earlier, Med devices, infrastructure companies, care
35:06
delivery companies, essentially anything that's changing the way
35:09
mental and brain illness is treated.
35:11
We are happy to work with the founder to get to those next,
35:15
you know, stages of their company.
35:17
And because we are such a specialized firm, you know, we
35:20
focus really in this one niche. We also like to provide our
35:24
network, our expertise in the industries so we can brainstorm
35:27
with the founders on how to navigate their challenges, how
35:31
to connect with the best people to hire for their next wave of
35:35
growth as well anything related to mental and brain health.
35:38
Very excited to chop the founders building in the space.
35:42
What is Simon Ventures like to have on board as an investor?
35:46
What we like to explain to our founders is we we like to see
35:50
ourselves as an ecosystem builder.
35:52
You know, when you're a founder with us, for example, you can be
35:55
featured in our in house podcast to reach more potential
35:58
customers, to reach more investors.
36:01
We're also really connected with other Tier 1 VCs, later stage
36:04
VCs. So when you need help with
36:06
fundraising later rounds, we can really work with you through
36:10
your pitch Jack, really be that type of VC that you can be
36:14
honest with. And you know, we are mental and
36:16
brain health, the VC. So we do know that founders
36:19
experience their own mental health journeys throughout this
36:22
experience. So we like to have full
36:24
transparency with our founders. You know, you don't have to be
36:26
completely buttoned up when you speak to us.
36:29
You can be honest and raw about your experience as you build
36:32
your company. And we really believe that this
36:34
honesty will allow founders to be as successful as possible
36:37
when they reach the next phases of their journey.
36:41
I think it's great that you are taking, you know, founder health
36:43
really seriously as well. And you know, I know about
36:46
working in mental health, whether it's as as a founder or
36:50
even on the investment side, it can be really challenging and
36:52
demanding. How do you personally protect
36:55
your own mental well-being? Yes, so you know, I, I'm
36:58
studying my master's in neuroscience and I'm also
37:01
working in venture. So of course I have very long
37:04
hours, but one of the more basic, the recommendations that
37:08
I have for anyone who is quite ambitious is you always have to
37:12
prioritize rest. You know, go down to the basics.
37:14
Sleep. I used to think that I was too
37:17
busy to have sufficient sleep, but now every night I make sure
37:22
that I have that 8 hours of sleep.
37:24
And then I also incorporate a lot of physical movement.
37:27
And so I love exercise, running, going to the gym, and doing some
37:32
of the more luxurious aspects of going to prioritize your
37:36
physical health, such as going to a sauna, going to a spa.
37:40
You know, the body and the mind is so integrated and connected
37:43
that when you prioritize one or the other, it really has an
37:46
impact on the entire human body as well.
37:49
So incorporating exercise, incorporating sleep, and then of
37:54
course, I have a lot of gratitude towards the clinicians
37:57
that I've worked with, the therapists, the psychiatrists
38:00
that I meet, you know, every single week, every single month.
38:03
It's been a part of my livelihood that has allowed me
38:06
to build a really sustainable career in a very demanding
38:09
space. I love that.
38:12
And Caitlin, if you could go back and give a piece of advice
38:17
to yourself when you first started at BlackRock, what would
38:21
you say? So I think when I reflect back
38:25
on that period, I put a lot of pressure on myself because
38:29
coming from an immigrant background on my family, coming
38:32
from the Philippines and now having this salary from, you
38:36
know, wonderful companies such as BlackRock, I was very afraid
38:39
to take the leap and try to figure out something else.
38:43
I had a lot of pressure to figure it out all on my own.
38:47
I knew that burnout was very common with people in demanding
38:51
industry, so I felt like I didn't need to ask for
38:53
professional help. I think if I could turn back
38:56
that time and go back to that period, I would really try to
39:01
build holistic healthcare, not just one point, which is
39:05
medication for example, but really incorporate, you know,
39:08
community support from friends and family, therapy as well as
39:13
physical movement and diet. So a broader overview of what a
39:18
holistically healthy person could be I would interpret on a
39:21
day-to-day basis, rather than just try to figure it out all on
39:24
my own and continue to work hours and hours on end.
39:28
What is the conversation around mental health in the Filipino
39:31
communities that you're most engaged with in the USI?
39:35
Think there's a broader conversation about mental health
39:39
in the Filipino community in America.
39:42
However, I talked to a lot of people with families in the
39:45
Philippines and with immigrant backgrounds as well.
39:48
And I think one of the hardest parts about seeking care is
39:52
because it is a developing country, a lot of people don't
39:55
have access to clinical care. A lot of people can't pay for
39:59
therapy. You know, some of the immigrant
40:01
families in the in the US don't have really substantial
40:05
healthcare insurance. To get the best types of
40:07
psychiatrists or therapy, or they might not even know family
40:11
members or friends that have gotten clinical care.
40:14
It's very difficult to start seeking out care to start
40:18
addressing your mental health diagnosis.
40:21
I think there's been some change.
40:23
I often see some larger celebrities and influencers in
40:28
the Filipino ecosystem starting to talk about mental health, but
40:31
there's a long way to go because there is that connection to the
40:34
stigmatized version of the mental health type of care that
40:39
you can receive. And so there's a lot of work to
40:41
go, but I, I'm really optimistic that there's a lot of changes as
40:44
well. That's great.
40:46
Thank you for sharing. Katie, let me ask you the
40:48
podcast staple, which is what is one thing that you believe will
40:52
allow more people to have better mental health?
40:56
I'm very optimistic about all the types of alternative
40:59
modalities, frontier treatments that we're investing in at Symed
41:03
and, you know, apply to a more personal basis.
41:07
You have to realize that there's so many ways to address your
41:09
mental health. You know, there is talk therapy
41:12
that's one way to address your traumas and your diagnosis.
41:17
But there's all these other treatments, clinical trials,
41:20
academics that are navigating new spaces of ways to address
41:24
mental illnesses, as well as companies that are emerging day
41:28
by day. You know, it's excites me to see
41:31
the number of companies that we are talking to innovating in a
41:35
space that was once highly stigmatized and only left to
41:41
uncover in a more private basis. Now there's a lot of
41:44
opportunities to seek care outside of just the traditional
41:48
therapy methods. So when you are navigating your
41:52
mental illness, when you are navigating your mental health,
41:54
know that with research you can find the best level of care that
41:58
can be provided to you. Thank you, Caitlin.
42:01
I'm just a bonus question because I realized I have to ask
42:04
you this in the news and also on various social media platforms.
42:09
There have been a lot of buzz recently about AI chat bots to
42:14
whatever degree being used as therapist, whether it's
42:17
unstructured, so through ChatGPT or whether through what
42:21
companies like Slingshot AI are trying to build.
42:23
And I'm quite curious to understand for you, what do you
42:27
see the part of AI therapist to be and what role do you think
42:31
they'll play in mental health going forward?
42:34
I know that this space is quite controversial, but I'm also very
42:37
optimistic about the space because like I mentioned
42:39
earlier, therapy and psychiatry can be very inaccessible for a
42:43
large range of people. And also, if you have a mental
42:46
health crises in the middle of the night and your therapist is
42:50
not available, this is where things like AI chat bots can
42:54
really come in and prevent you from making certain decisions or
42:57
from spiraling even further. I think that we really need to
43:01
collaborate, you know, in a multidisciplinary manner to
43:04
create AI chat bots that are providing both clinically sound
43:08
advice as well as to provide guardrails for any edge cases,
43:13
any extreme cases of suicidality of comorbidities among serious
43:18
mental illnesses, for example. I think there's a lot of work to
43:21
be done, not just on the founder basis of those building
43:24
startups, but for clinical therapists and psychiatrists
43:28
that want to provide advice to these types of companies, as
43:31
well as regulators that want to ensure that these types of
43:34
companies can really provide the best quality of care as
43:37
possible. I think it's really early days.
43:39
You know, AI is developing so quickly.
43:42
We have a lot to learn, but I'm very optimistic that we can use
43:45
this to really, really democratize access to care.
43:48
Thank you for sharing your insights.
43:50
I love that Kaylin. It's been such a pleasure to
43:52
have you on the Load Grow podcast.
43:54
Thank you so much for having me, Annie.
43:56
That's a wrap for today's episode of the Load Grow
43:59
Podcast. If it resonated with you, leave
44:02
a review and hit follow to help more people to find important
44:06
conversations. Keep growing and see you next
44:09
time.