Latest / Storied Account with Jen Jumba / Anthony Gedell: Love Lies in the Throes of Rhetoric
Transcript
- Jennifer Jumba: is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft and them as a person and you'll become like me. Fiercely loyal, want to read their current book, ⁓ backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them not only as incredible storytellers, Anthony Gedell: . ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. And I'm super excited because my guest today is Anthony Giddell. We are going to be talking about his debut novel. So first of all, congratulations on your first book. That's an incredible accomplishment. Anthony has background. ⁓ He's in New Jersey and he's done publishing in Hobart, House, Variant, Revolution John, Punk Noir Magazine. And he's an editor at Tough Magazine. And you notice that a lot of those publications poetry and crime. And I like to think of Anthony as kind of that intersection where crime intersects with poetry because his debut novel, Love Lies in the Throws of Rhetoric, is simply gorgeous. It an incredible story, but not only that, it's told in a beautiful way. So I'm so glad you're joining me this evening to talk about this debut novel. Let's imagine that we were at a cocktail party and I asked you about your debut novel. How would you introduce Lies in the Throws of Rutter? Anthony Gedell: Well. First of all, Jennifer, with your violin strings vocal chords and drumming of your human heart, I appreciate your words and having me. I celebrate being across from you. That is a feat. That is an accomplishment to be here with you. So thank you and you for everything that you do. We were talking before we got on here. Librarian extraordinaire, beyond just what we're doing here. ⁓ It's such a dutiful life of deeds and acts and it's so rooted in grace. So thank you. I suppose I would pitch it in the manner of just sort of the way you did, you know, literary crime novel and pitching it the manner also that crime novel, the crime novel in some is the new American novel, I think, because it's a way of cross-examining ⁓ society. and a time and a place in conducting a more metaphysical investigation into the crumbling struts of not only the world itself, but the human spirits of characters within that novel. So I just sort of pitch it as ⁓ a night of tidings between a group of couples leads to a senseless undertaking is made and at the spotlight. are Trask and Eudora who are sort of too young to feel so old race, sweethearts racing towards a red light. And the backdrop of a failing society are all of these failing loves. And at heart of it as well is the hunt for a killer on the loose. And ⁓ on the track of these spiraling comes a series of ⁓ where the mysteries are solved in the manner of a confession. So in this moment of madness and mania, here we are. Jennifer Jumba: It is such, a great book, such a great story. And yeah, seems a little bit dark in terms of the society that they're living in, that these people that they have no choice in the things that doing in ⁓ the journeys that they're and still trying to find a way to connect with one another. I'm thinking in particular about Eudora and Trask. this couple who ⁓ to be together and don't want to be together at the same time. mean, you capture that duality of things. Can talk a little bit more about them as a couple? Anthony Gedell: glad you asked that, because these things, it's always when it comes to to those two that I think I'm most moved because I mean in the face of, I guess, misery, I suppose. You know, I think we hope to not move or continue on in luxury because I think then we become kind of deceitful in our acceptances ⁓ of our traumas and But know, those kind of loveless loves that's at the heart of an noir novel. You tap into that, but I think that there's something more between them. I think that there is a true love and I think that the world gets in the way of that love. And I she says to him, know, I don't know what's wrong with me. I try to love you how I love you. And they're just sort punching for. their fractured hearts a bit of it is very much under the skin as well with those two. I would maybe very much so. The two letters there actually were written to me verbatim. And I just think it's observation and deduction as well. And some of it was cut. There was more on the relationships of today. And I guess they would, you know, they call that in our culture situationships Every, I think every story is a love story and every love story is something of a ghost story. And Trask and Eudora, there's a true love there. There's a real heartbeat. Eudora is so plagued, I think, by the great enemy of nihilism. it has ⁓ sank teeth in her. And they have these petty qualms between them, these battles, these linguistic battles where it's just who could just kind of spew the most pessimistic stuff at one another. And he's usually holding up a shield for her because there's still that great care, there's that great love. But it's Jennifer Jumba: Great. Anthony Gedell: as though the world doesn't allow it to exist. there's all sorts of things going on with that relationship. And I don't wanna get too far off on it being the idea of how could you go on and find love when true love passes you by and it slips through your fingers, let's say, without getting kind of too corny there. But it's also kind of like ⁓ slow knife of grief is turning. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Anthony Gedell: always. And I think grief is not something to be survived, it's something to be outlived. And this is not to go into too much detail about obviously the ending of that relationship. But the idea ⁓ that grief, ⁓ ancient grief being represented in that true love, you know, I don't know, is rare maybe these days. Maybe if you talk about it, seems a little bit or just kind of has the effluvia of just something that is, you know, just untetherable to something that we could connect to anymore as a society or a culture. But again, I do think at the end of the day on your deathbed, think we talked on this before we got on, you'll remember the magnitude of that love, I think. And it's something that don't would ever leave Trask or Eudora. but there's something at the heart of their relationship that kind of lends us the whole book many different nuanced and layered ways where it's not just a telling their ⁓ story, but rather the society at large. I could go on and on about this ⁓ and I don't to ramble too much, but there's a lot to be said about that relationship, Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, think looking at relationship, they have this, it feels like a reader, you know, you're kind of observing them and kind of understanding what they're thinking. There is that profound love. However, I think it frightens or seems to frighten both of them. So they find I find themselves bickering over words over who can be like out, worse the other. And I think about Eudora, because it comes up in the book that she's really battling mental health issues, ⁓ so bringing these up, think, is a is a good thing. think it's something we should talk a little bit more often about and stopping to understand, those that we care about how they're doing, not just what they're posting on social media, but she talks about the severity of her impossible sadness. then we it kind of unfold with Trask that, her impossible sadness doesn't just impact her and her life, but it impacts him because he cares about her. And I think about us in life that when somebody we care about is suffering, or going through a tough time, it impacts us ⁓ because we want to make it better for them. So I also see that coming up, that theme between the two of them in this book. Anthony Gedell: You couldn't. you couldn't be more right and his Achilles heel. And what do I mean by that? I think ⁓ she his Achilles heel in so many ways because again with writing, it's not really happening these days too much, but you're trying to again, not force feed the reader with everything. And there should be something of an abstract painting where the words convey something more to the reader than what they say. And that's I'm getting at. I'm just so much could be unpacked on just those two characters alone, but Jennifer Jumba: Right. Anthony Gedell: Sheep is Achilles heel because there's this also tethering thread of Trask trying to be a soldier becoming a shepherd in a way. And he's running towards Grace he's trying to find the light, but he wanted them to do it together. And she has all of these cynical pessimistic outlooks where it wouldn't even dawn on her that a relationship is meant to be worked at. And she's so burdened by maybe living of the flesh and not of the spirit. And boredom ceases every purple heart and we're always searching for fulfillment. And this is not to, I have a lot of sympathy and empathy and love for Eudora myself. Again, it's ⁓ under skin, but I've had readers again come to me and say, they don't like Eudora, but it's always the ones who say that she broke their hearts that really speak to me. And I'm trying stay focused on your question he really does care about her greatly and she does him as well even more probably and but something just again gets in the way there and think again why do i say she's his achilles heel because he's a very intense cerebral intuitive man who's also a deep feeling man and a very physical man is really just again. He's not just a warrior. He's not just a poet. He's a warrior poet in many regards, but he's also too self-aware He's above anybody, but maybe he's certainly off to the side and you know he's He's been dealt bad cards, but whenever he's trying to make those gains towards that light Just her in such a makes him want to murder universe ⁓ And it really, it's the one thing that sends him right back down the tunnel of that very same nihilism. And his self-sabotage is glorious. And, you know, he's a maverick at just sort of just destructing the self and then even deeper rock bottoms beneath those hells and just keeping on keeping on with the digging. And I just think that kind of trickery at very heart of its experience and its is a society I guess, based on ⁓ symbols, which makes love kind of symbolic for a lot of things. ⁓ So in its essence, it's an artificial society, but it's a real love. ⁓ And in that are those very real high-intense human emotions and interactions. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Anthony Gedell: You know, the end of the day, they could have probably found peace. They have found a mode being that wasn't in the manner of the expression of a volcanic eruption. That was just, know, again, where are these words or emotions even coming from? But it's just, again, their worldview and experience really doubles down on that nihilism when you got to kind of build your own church ⁓ and that whole thing of, know, heaven being a home ⁓ the one you love and the doves come home. It doesn't need to be sufficient, but it needs to be enough. And I think he was trying to push her having that mindset of it enough. is something to be worked at. But you know, she feels like that, you know, nobody loves her. She has nothing to look forward to. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Anthony Gedell: ⁓ and you know, there's that element of mental illness, but she is so strong with her conviction that it's almost the form of a knowing her where it's not some other, know, plaguing that knowing, but that would also then be, think some form of a desperate way of convincing the self, which is never really good for anybody. yeah, I mean, digress, I'm rambling a lot, but this is where that's where the book really comes alive. Jennifer Jumba: Right. No. Anthony Gedell: for me is through those two because I think also, you know, I'm trying not to, I say spoiler but I choose my language, but like, you know. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ yeah, no, we don't want to, no, we don't want to spoil. Anthony Gedell: Right, no, and you know, I just, there could be, can lose hope in the thing and you could kind of anchor your young heart. There could be that one ⁓ I that again, is just that slow turning knife of grief that places you now in the woods Dunsinane on fire, let's say, to make a Macbeth reference. And that's now where you dwell with your servant called Satan to come and just kind of feast you upon your own miseries. ⁓ because you have lost hope in It sounds corny or cheap using that word, but that's what it is. And Eudora also is fundamentally a representation of the snare character, which is so prominent in American literature. I always fall back on that line in Ecclesiastes where it says something along the lines of the man who fears God will be free of the snare and the one who doesn't will be enveloped in her chains. ⁓ And so there is that toxicity a little bit where, you know, she does try to rattle his cage and she does try to disrespect him and belittle him. But I think along the way, as you see that unfold he tries to be there for her and he's not perfect at all either. I think that was again, just kind of a mechanism from her of pushing him away and just. a sign of or maybe a plea of desperation ⁓ the manner of convincing herself. But yeah, she's the one of the ⁓ one that conviction, I think. It's never any malice with her. I think she's really got. poetry to her. She's poetry in motion and because she also she represents that other kind of type of character that is the pessimistic monologues. She's the vessel for that. But with her there's still just something of the drumming of the human spirit and has such a way of looking at life that makes her too again almost intuitive for her own good and it makes her seem cerebral and ⁓ better cynical where she isn't. I think both of them are sort of like that. And so they're really all that they got, both of them. you know, they, it's, you that slip through your fingers again. I think that we lose sight on what it means to be, to be alone. And I think in society now. I think there's so many of us that we're so far apart, you know, that whole kind of loneliness epidemic thing in our culture. ⁓ And, know, yeah. So, I mean, I'm going on a lot, so I'm going to digress. I'm very sorry, but. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Anthony Gedell: I could talk about those two a lot. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ no, they're incredible characters. you kind of set up the situation in the society in which they're living where we've lost our jobs, our money, our home. Maybe we've just done up and lost our damn minds. I see such similarities ⁓ Trask and Eudora, but both of them present outwardly different. Whereas Eudora is very cynical out loud. And then Trask is trying to find that lightness and that hope, right? Where he talks about, you need to find a pocket of happiness in every day, tells her she's not trying. And at the same time, you have that juxtaposed with the fact that he's a PI and trying to solve a crime. So I mean, I don't, I don't imagine PIs who are trying to solve a grisly murder as ⁓ people that would happy. Anthony Gedell: Yeah, that's a good point. Then that also kind of, guess, you know, the idea of like, what is the writer but a detective as well? So where I'm getting at is there's always that dichotomy and maybe again, just symmetry in the idea of the detective who can't even solve the problems within their own home. you know, you have this dying love on the canvas of this dying world, which is furthered by the canvas of this investigation into a murderer with a great moral message that they are trying to portray in the work that they do. But inside of everything that you just said also, I just think these high low society people... who feel heartbroken over money or emotional transactions. Maybe we were satisfied for decades with novelties, but we as novelists also kind of bear witness to this kind of ancient grief again and wrote about our worlds ⁓ produced, I guess, something the means of a kind of useless art, it would be without the drumming of the heartbeat of those characters that really stand up on the page. And I think that is the human experience of those two characters, which makes the plot itself You know, that's just something to drive the novel forward, but where it comes alive is that relationship of Trask and Eudora. And they also have these deeply internalized, I think, cynical feelings as well, because she is very vocal with it. And... I don't know when she's vocal with it, who she's even talking to, because I think at times in those relationships, they just become audience and we're on a stage to just kind of vent the litany of grievances and contradictions and injuries that we are. And as we said before we got on, you need somebody to hear it. And that that swings, ebbs and flows. between just being the instrument of our liberation, think, to those feelings. the ones, again, who just... there's no swinging back, know, it's not so much a pendulum, but it's a swinging ax over them and it's just slowly descending upon their heads. I don't know, you have to kind of really watch someone go through that pain and see the look in their eyes as they are spewing that pessimism. I think then you will find some form of loneliness that is unreachable. because I think just they're so gone into that misery. And speak a lot about how all literature kind of stems from the idea of tragedy. And you kind of then juxtapose tragedy to misery. And I do think the two are very different because tragedy, I think, is like what we were talking on when we were talking on RCs with the great work that you do in that regard as well of it being circular, a circular ruination. I speak a lot about how all good literature kind of from the idea of tragedy. And could kind of then juxtapose tragedy to misery. And I do the two are very different because tragedy, I think, is like what we were talking on when we were talking on RCs with the great work that you do in that regard as well of it being circular, a circular ruination. I think tragedy is circular, but it's circular in the manner of we look at it together as human beings with all of the art that we have and communion. know, we're still good at heart, perhaps could still be said. And it's, it's, we, it's so that we move forward. Even if it's a circular tragedy, we move forward. We move around and around those tracks together. But misery is so, deeply that I think that it cannot be booted once ⁓ it really its teeth in. It's like grief. I think tragedy is circular, but it's circular in the manner of we look at it together as human beings with all of the art that we have and communion. know, we're still good at heart, perhaps could still be said. And it's, it's, we, it's so that we move forward. Even if it's a circular tragedy, we move forward. We move around and around those tracks together. But misery is so, deeply that I think that it cannot be booted once ⁓ it really its teeth in. It's like grief. So. I think that's kind of where Eudora resides. It's a different cul-de-sac of pain. And again, Trask bear to see it. And he can't to see even others disregarded ⁓ who should be there for her, which now again is the dissection the American family and that nihilism and that loss of hope. I just sort of, I mean, I guess I sort of grew up people that you didn't really know. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Right. Anthony Gedell: you know, if it was, I'm really, I'm not foul talking anyone and, ⁓ I'm not making any claim, you know, this is just, you know, America, here we are. You got to bear witness as a writer, it's observation and deduction. but. You sometimes so that you can't tell when families are together, if it's a funeral or a holiday Christmas, you know, and, that's what is, really at the heart of Eudora is that. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Right. Anthony Gedell: We're talking all this about her, there's that, there's that want for just really simply, we kept using this word good the name of ⁓ good or the bad. Like, let's not get too kind of brainy here. I think she just really wanted everything to be good and filled with love and her family to ⁓ happy. Right. And show that happiness and that excitement. So that desire is there. And that's, I think, again, your intentions and your thoughts. Jennifer Jumba: She did not have a good, yeah, childhood. Anthony Gedell: are as just as much actions as what your hands down and what your feet put forth, I think, in a way. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. book, I I talked to you a little bit earlier is not a big book, but it is a book that I, it took me a while to read only because every phrase, every sentence is so so intentional, so written that there's a visceral to it. There, it evokes an emotion, which is what good art. should do. know, reading this, just you were able to capture everything. I can't wait for others to read this. back to something said a little bit earlier, you talked about ⁓ love and ghosts. And thinking about that. I'm thinking about like, not like Casper, the friendly ghost, and certainly not like some horror film. But it's, it's a sense of grief will of haunt us. ⁓ that loss of connection that Eudora didn't have with her parents growing up or that Trask is desperate to connect with her in a meaningful way and for him, for her to be able to see herself the way he sees her. think there's a lot of, whether it's imposter syndrome where we just don't think we're deserving of love, you bring up a lot of good points. Anthony Gedell: Okay. Jennifer Jumba: in this book and themes in terms of like the stories we tell ourselves, terms of are we more than the bad things that have happened to us, ⁓ and how do know which experience is going to imprint on us and that we carry with us what is something, going back to your circular, what is something that we can kind of still be in a circular and then kind of move forward with it so that that ⁓ circle gets bigger and wider diametrically from that very hurt. Anthony Gedell: I think that's wonderful too because you never want art to be so much of a monologue and just really even just about the craft of it. I remember scrapping everything and the writing of it was a really intense process that I always, know, would never really believe me. But I knew though I wanted it to be short and something in the realm of spare because I'm well, who reads these days and who cares now? And the great American novel is perhaps a great American short novel, but I still wanted to find, and this is something that came alive in the process of finding a way of making it have that momentum and be spare and short, but then inject the effluvia of language and poetry because you need to have, again, deep characterization and good prose. And we spoke before we got on again about the idea of, you know, what separates art and craft and that's emotional resonance. So you need that to happen as well. high intense human emotions and interactions, character entangled in circumstance and revelations of language and self under pressure, timely and important infuser, tragedy, heartbreak and love. That all needs to happen, but you need good prose and you need to have something in the manner of metaphor and anecdote. You know, obviously symbolism happening in such a unique way that's never been done before. And an artistry in the words that's so nuanced and layered that it needs. more dissection to get down to what exactly is happening. So that just came alive in the process where I still found a way to kind of breathe in the poetry in those lines and the language that I find to be striking and what I also to be good literature. And from the moment that I found that, I think I rejected the idea that artists have the right to stand alone, I think, and it kind of offered me ⁓ as a subject that this is not just a personal dream of mine anymore. I mean dream like conjuring up the story, but rather a reality that to be lived and suffered by and for everyone perhaps. So the language again, I could go into that. It just came about in the process and the sparse way the story unfolds. And the second part of that question was in regards to just, I guess, the idea of... I do think that still, I think fiction, I think traces, and I speak on this often, I think it just traces the consequences of mankind's ambition. And I think it captures the psychology of nihilism again, and ideological extremism, call But exploits them. in the realms of a fearful combination that forces us to be complacent in a society. But know, great fiction is a better predictor of human history than economics and human history, mean, again, human love, human tenderness. And I, you I just of landed on this recently and that's because it's just, it's up to the writer to be intensely observant and introspective and just sort of reflect back the idea, you know, out of the confusion of life, it's about the bliss and bail of the things that hurt and the things that help that you're trying to capture. And what does that put the totality of a relationship? Jennifer Jumba: you talk about it being sparse and, and maybe in terms of if we're going to look at word counts, but there is such a profound feeling when these words are read. I mean, even in the very beginning, I mean, you don't say heart, right? You describe it. as that rubied jewel hanging in our chests. so beautifully said the graveyard our past selves that we leave behind. mean, just such thoughtfulness ⁓ intentionality with choice. My background is I used to write radio commercials. so ⁓ a 60 second is 120 words. Anthony Gedell: That's a great. So well. Jennifer Jumba: And we used to always tell clients, if I had more time, it would have been shorter. So the ability for you to, as you say, write sparse is hard. It's incredibly difficult because you are so thoughtful and deliberate with what word goes where and in what order so that it conveys the weight of what these characters in the story are feeling. that resonates with us because we've all experienced that same love, that same hurt, that same ghost of that continues to stay with us that we thought we were ⁓ or had gotten past. So it's just so done. ⁓ It's Marvel. Anthony Gedell: And you. Well, thank you. Thank you. And I really do appreciate it. just. Again, what you do, I just I can't thank you enough and you mentioned that idea of just, you know, ⁓ the of, you know, every love story is a ghost story and. The word choice, that's at the author's dispense. all reaching into the same toolbox, but you to have the language stand up and that is being real choice with your words. But what is more real in our universe than a person's life? And I think have language to capture that. So for example, how could we hope to be better rendering a life? It starts in the lines, I think, our word choice. I just feel maybe in a way, because there's this gritty realism to it. I always wanted there to be, I didn't want it to have any kind of, I just wanted to hold the camera up, let's say. But I think in that way, realism would be to art. I think kind of what photography is to painting, I don't know if that makes sense, ⁓ which makes kind of a reportage ⁓ of naturalism. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, it does. Anthony Gedell: and it reproduces itself, even if you don't choose the right words. If you know that you're trying to capture something and not reproduce something, you're kind of now garnering a reality in the essence of just something that is deeply felt by every human being. And it also should be very much under your skin, which is observation and deduction. And so that... language while you could really kind of go to some other place when you write, you tap into some other place. Especially if you do it in the manner of, you know, something like a physical bout, there needs to be something of a physicality to it. I think, again, it's just, you could really anticipate the future by understanding the souls of men and women. And you do that by understanding also the painful experiences you've been through. and perhaps bearing witness to the painful experiences others have been through. And so we're trying to move. patterns back to people. Because fiction, I think, kind of moves from the individual out, but we're trying to bring that back. And I think what we do is we try to find those words because language obviously is very internal. And if you find those words, I think now that you lasso someone back to the real kind of themes of the work that you're trying to put and it starts with those words, the right words. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Right. Yeah, so you mentioned being observational, right? is it like to go out and grab lunch with you? mean, are you always observing? Always? is distracting or is it helpful? Or ⁓ you kind of turn that part of your brain off Anthony Gedell: Yes. so. I've been told that I should be slapped a few times and that I could be a little intense. it's similar to that line in the book where I could be too intuitive for my own good, maybe too cerebral, and it makes me seem cynical where I'm not. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Anthony Gedell: You know, it gets me in trouble. Maybe this is really something stupid to say, but I just kind of stumbled into teaching and I never really went to school much myself. and you know, whenever they say, you know, I'm observing you, I'm like, cause you get observed your classes, ⁓ know, I'll just, I'll point blank. Be like, no, I'm observing you because I'm just like, I'm, I'm observing you Yeah. Like, because, you know, I'm sort of now thinking. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: I'm observing you observing me. Anthony Gedell: You know, did you watch that show, The Bear? I'm like, why did no one ever write? And I'm not even talking about the stoners of the world, the book stoner by John Williams, the academia novel. But I'm like, why hasn't there been a The but in academia where somebody just loses their mind from the profound ignorance that Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Anthony Gedell: borders something the form of a miracle or perhaps a malevolence that's so reprehensible that it's unspeakable that administrators put forth every day administration. And this is just a long-winded answer of I am always watching and I'm bearing witness and I don't really think much people You know, they're just sort of on because they're wind up dolls by the media that they're plugged into and their own kind of malice bitterness resentment. And I'm not trying to make a claim here, judgmental claim, but that's my, guess, I don't know why I went down that track of saying like, am always, I'm way too observant. ⁓ I, as a kid, yeah, even as a kid, I was too aware of a lot of adults hypocrisies. And, you know, that's why, again, I always say not above anyone, but certainly off to the side. Jennifer Jumba: No, no. and very introspective. Yeah. Anthony Gedell: Again, bearing witness, but in the manner of not, I'm better than anyone. don't know why that's, that would be a ridiculous claim, but just again, as said, introspective, probably too for my own good. Jennifer Jumba: think it's hard for most people to sit with themselves stillness and quiet. I think I mean, people can't stand and wait in line for a coffee without scrolling through their phone. Now if it was a book, I would be okay. Like, okay, you can be distracted if you're listening to an audio book or you're reading a book, but no, kidding. But I find people have a very hard time, I'm just gonna sit and I'm going to be quiet. Because when you sit Anthony Gedell: I think so. ⁓ Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: and they're quiet, that's when thoughts come, right? And we're not real comfortable sometimes with ourselves and what we're thinking and then that means, well, if I think this, then maybe I should do this or that. But I think going back to your point of your book, I think this book will tether people to be able to sit with this. Anthony Gedell: I think so. Yeah, it makes you something like. Jennifer Jumba: things that are inside themselves as they're experiencing it, not just through Eudora and Trask, but even Daniela and John, who are terrific characters as well. I think sometimes it's a thing that we need to read to ground us, to us that we're human beings. We're not, ⁓ technically cyborgs if we're always walking around with a smartphone and doing our thing, but we need kind of ground ourselves, you know? Go back to... Anthony Gedell: Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: basics, human kindness, human civility, engagement. So. Anthony Gedell: I think that's beautifully said. And I mean, you were incredibly generous even when we got on on the book and the impact it had on you. I just, even now continuing it, it's just, it's not just to pat myself on the back or just anything beyond just the deed of what you do for ⁓ you. And I so agree with that. I mean, what is the 21st century slave ⁓ but the phone. And I always say, ideally scrolling through the phone is the equivalence of taking a nap without the benefits of rest. And I do think it- Jennifer Jumba: So quite welcome. Well said. I think I'm going to use that from now on. Anthony Gedell: Yeah, and it really does. It almost narcoticizes you in a way. anesthetizes you. You might as well just go bang your head against the rock. And that's what causes people, I think, to be so disjointed from reality and also so disjointed from themselves. And that causes you to be something in the manner of pen cow and that nervousness. Again, that anxiousness, it makes you essentially just, again, that wind-up doll to those plaguing anxieties that even your own anymore. And you have not lost your mind, surrendered it willingly. And when your mind goes, your heart follows suit. ⁓ And your compassion your and your empathy and your grace, but not being able to alone and quiet. Now it's like you better gully up because we are so disjointed and fractured as a society. You better make peace with the self or there's going to be not consequences but vibrations that will slowly turn to earthquakes, I think, in your very own life that have cracked the foundation of that life and you have nothing to stand on, I think. Jennifer Jumba: I think it's really easy to be distracted these days. Right? Because we're, because we're uncomfortable, with the quiet and the stillness and that who am I that sense of self will will just my sense of self is however curated myself on, social media versus, how many people are in my, close group that people that who's who I genuinely care about, obviously family because I didn't have you doors. Anthony Gedell: Yeah, what's that whole thing Jennifer Jumba: upbringing. had a great upbringing. ⁓ But you know, you just thinking about that, and think we need to not be so distracted and fractured. I think that's what compounds the loneliness that surgeon general now considers to be an epidemic. And so I want everybody read love lies in the throes of rhetoric, and read it slowly and deliberately and Anthony Gedell: That's it. Jennifer Jumba: carefully and let it just sit. I'm on a podcast you can't see, but like sit right here in your chest and your heart. And I was thinking about you said, when your heart goes, then you know, your, your mind goes, or your mind is connected to your heart, heart, body, soul. had somebody, you know, like we all go through stress with work or some other situation. And I, you know, have a great physician who's a DO. So comes at things holistically and said, go the opposite way, do something art related, do something creative and go heart to head instead. And I just thought, wow, that's really great. So I'm with this book, that people will be able to do that and slow down and find the things in themselves that ground them and remember that we're all part of this ⁓ incredible human race. Anthony Gedell: . Mm. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ Anthony Gedell: so beautiful and ⁓ so receptive of your words. And like I always say, I'm listening in order to understand and not respond. So anything that I say is conjured up by It's again, you ⁓ got string, vocal chords, and you're playing my own. with your compassion and just existence, ethereal existence. reality is the source of art's emotion, I think. And I think, again, that battle is one, that battle is not one without language. And... going back to the sensibility of... You I always found life, you're trying to just kind of build, you're trying to find a little hole in the universe, know, and build your home there, kind of. But those sensibilities of, you know, the real world, ⁓ if want to call it that, which gives life, ⁓ you to bodies and statues through its splendor or whatever you want to kind of go down the list of just sort of, you know, the sources of light. think great in work. kind of lies midway between the artists ⁓ those emotions again. And the idea of finding the very few principles within those works to propose meaning to folks that meaning might have been lost and turn melancholy to something like rebellion, know, that's the You know, that's the hope and just, you you get asked all sorts of questions if you go to readings and I'm very big on what you said in the regard of just these human moments those are forms of publication and that's all that matters. You know, when, when, when I have a thing where I go to a reading, I don't really like to market too much because I'm just sort of like, I don't even want to put it out there because what matters most is the people this room ⁓ and let's it so that it's only the people in this room that remember this because here we are and we bear witness to one another and I think that's just really Jennifer Jumba: And you'll never have that same thing repeat in life. You'll never have that same group of people experiencing that very same thing at that moment together ever again. Anthony Gedell: Yeah, you could, Yep. Exactly. And this podcast could not be published and it's worth a million bucks to me just being here with you, know, just this year. Yeah, it could have been just a phone call and it's the same thing. It's the same merit to me. that's just, again, the singular entity that is you. But you get ⁓ asked sorts of things and, somebody asked me, know, what do you want people to take away from your book? And I was like, you know, I don't, I don't, it's not me to answer. I want you to take away whatever it is that you take away. I sure have my answer to that, but Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Likewise. Yeah. Anthony Gedell: And the person call your people was her response is kind of what she took away from it. and just appreciate life more. and the people around you. and so I just, I don't know, I was really moved by that. And I just thought of that. but I just do think that, you know, sometimes even the greater the, you know, artists, I guess, revolts against reality and revolt sounds heavy. And so does reality. that revolts, the greater the revolt against the world, I think there's something of a counterbalance that could happen, if that makes sense. that weight, yeah, that weight can never overpower the requirements of the artist, I think, if it's in the line with that self-relation. And now the stakes are higher because there needs to be Jennifer Jumba: Makes perfect sense. Anthony Gedell: You know, obviously, as we said, beautiful writing, nature, human tenderness, imparting ⁓ ⁓ amplified extreme circumstance in high stakes where lessons could be learned and a had for characters and readers and the writer themselves, all of it pressure. You know, that's the aim. That's the hope. And I just don't think could be happening from even Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Anthony Gedell: So a place of comfortability, it's gotta come that that pain, but it's again that idea of tragedy and misery, it's so that we could face them and move forward and especially for the artists themselves. Cause if there's that revolt, you're not trying to paint a still life. That battle has to be won again and that purpose is as much chosen. in a certain way because art is a revolt against the world, but encompasses, I think, is fleeting or perhaps unfinished. And I'm rambling a lot, but art does not, I think, take anything more than the purpose of, I don't know, giving another shape to reality, which nevertheless then again proposes some kind of healing, I guess. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-mm. But so well said. would argue that they're similar you mentioning still life painting is relatively passive. People will and look at it. Whereas I feel like your book, Love Lies in the Throws of Rhetoric is something that reaches and tethers us for a participatory experience reading ⁓ Anthony Gedell: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Jennifer Jumba: being grounded by those lessons, whatever it is we take away because we all read the same book but with different life experiences coming to this book. So we're all going to take a little something different away. this is something that I want people to invest their time in and engage with because world be seen completely different after reading this. ⁓ Yeah. Anthony Gedell: you Well, thank you. again, are coming from you because you're making me think and I just love what you said there. And this is why, again, I this about you from the work you produced. And again, that's why, again, you were on that list, like I mentioned, because how you engage with literature. But a healthy self, think, again, to use your words, one that is grounded in the power that created it. And the creation could be the creation itself, a book, or just the created self, the human being. ⁓ And I think that task requires a constant renewed faith. And I think that's what a good work can do. It could renew faith. So that self. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Anthony Gedell: is a relationship that is constantly reflecting onto itself in the work. And that self is not merely, I think, it's not really, it's not merely the relation, but the relations own act of relating to and others, and then also the creator. Now you're acknowledging some form of higher power. And I think that, I think that is established. without any acknowledgement whatsoever. if it's not, I think the self falls into despair. And that's another heavy word, I think. ⁓ And so that God, lowercase g can be anything, and you're trying to find that in the work. And that could be the suffering that we all face because you're trying to instill that faith again. And I could be going on here and not making any sense, but they really do. Jennifer Jumba: Thank you. No, they coexist. I mean, that's the thing. Anthony Gedell: They really do. And you ask yourself, what is the difference of believing in good and believing in God? I think there's a question that is always important to me. And I'm making a zealous claim again. It's more about the good. So I think a healthy self requires that constant renewed faith in the power. I think that's constituted again, almost in the form of a synthesis ⁓ of opposing forces. ⁓ that's so finite and infinite and temporal and to the self's existence that it depends on maintaining a balance between these poles that's in the self and the work and then also to others. So now it's quest for the grail in a way. And ⁓ there's always a of self-actualization. And I think many great books take that structure. And this is what we to encapsulate as writers. ⁓ It's not politics. It's not oppression or privilege or identity. I think it's all that is our and spirits. We all have the very same, I think, candles within those churches and we're those pews together. And I guess this was a long way of just saying, because I think what you mentioned there was the idea of just communion in a book. And I couldn't more with that. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Anthony Gedell: I mean, don't, just kind of rambling on again. I apologize, but. Jennifer Jumba: No, I trust me. of you who are listening to Anthony talk, he talks beautifully. He writes beautifully. mean, even if you get an email, like I've been lucky enough, the emails are constructed just like this. So beautifully phrased that I just want to like print them out and put them all over. So ⁓ would talk to you the rest of the evening. but ⁓ approaching end. this is, this is end, the final five questions. ⁓ Anthony Gedell: Yes, ma'am. Jennifer Jumba: What game show do you think you could win? Anthony Gedell: man, wow. ⁓ what game show do I think I could win? What's the one that you need to be the least intelligent for? Jennifer Jumba: you Jeopardy, just kidding. Anthony Gedell: Yeah, right. Deal or no deal. You just got to pick a number. There you go. I could do it. Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: There you go. Yeah. What was your favorite book as a child? Anthony Gedell: Ooh, as a child? Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Anthony Gedell: What age group are we saying? Jennifer Jumba: Whatever, whichever one that you remember reading and were completely captivated by. Anthony Gedell: Okay, then know what? In my formative years, the one book that had an impact on me... there's so many different answers to that because now that terms of... Yeah, you know, this is a maybe kind of bizarre answer, but... Because there's so many different answers I could give and then it would have to kind of chronicle when that book established itself. And I say established, but the goal of art on the contrary is not to establish rules or to reign. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, there's no wrong answer. Don't worry. Right? Anthony Gedell: any kind of regard. You know, first and foremost, it's to understand and art sometimes, you know, then we'll kind of have some rain over you. I digress. You're like, man, five answers here. Relax. ⁓ You know, yeah, you know, it's I'm like, do I go like super young or like whatever? But I don't know. There was something about the crucible and it wasn't a book. was a play ⁓ that so Jennifer Jumba: the No, no, no, no, it's fine. This is, I'm, this is going to be a good one. Yeah, Arthur Miller. Anthony Gedell: striking to the principals even as a young person that I had. then just the drama of it, obviously the ending we all know and Daniel Day Lewis I think heightened that with his performance in play. And ⁓ I'd really went to school. never really went. So this wasn't even read in school. And I remember actually, I would never ⁓ and you know, ⁓ in school time. think I got arrested for truancy and I had to go. And I was just, but I wasn't out. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Anthony Gedell: I was just trying, I was working, you I had to make my way on my own. And there's a whole story there, but I was in school and I always a book on me and I'll never forget, I'm actually looking at the book over there. This teacher comes out and she's crying and she handed me a copy and I'm not making a claim on Stephen King. I'm not necessarily a fan or not a fan, but she handed me a copy of The Stand and it her late husband's Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ I can't wait. Anthony Gedell: copy, he had died. she was crying and she just said, if you're not a writer, we failed as an institute, she said. And I'll never that because I always had a book on me. But that's, guess, a way of just sharing something that is heartfelt, but also just, you know, the crucible. didn't pass it in school. I passed it just, was always just kind I don't know what it's snakebitten. I mean, it's God-given gift and I don't think you choose your obsessions, they choose you. So, you know, the writing and the reading thing just kind of. is a way of just exercising a deed because words are deeds. think they prepare the soul, know, a move things towards tenderness and grace, that whole thing. I digress. My goodness, I'm going 20 minutes on your last five questions here. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: No, it's, it's all it's all good there. It's a really interesting thing. I'll tell you my story about the stand another day. Yeah, if you could only get there you go. If you could only eat one thing for breakfast for the rest of your life, what would it be? Anthony Gedell: I'm excited. I'm driving on Ohio. I'm coming. We're having a yes. hard boiled eggs and sardines all a grown boy needs. I'm broken on the go, all right? I'm trying my best. Sometimes I just stay fasted for long stints. you know, I think Oscar Wilde said there is not a single man among unfortunate people locked up with me in this miserable place who does not have a symbolic relationship with the secret of life. I think he said, and I think that is something in the realms of in I dwell. But I will tell you the secret is hard boiled eggs and sardines. Jennifer Jumba: There you go. Yeah. I'm with you on the hard boiled eggs, sardines ⁓ sure. ⁓ Anthony Gedell: Come on man, it's cheap, I can feed them to my dog, where else could you get 22 grams of protein in a can? I mean, you're on the go, you're on the go. You could steal them if you need to, like, you know, I've been there, done that. I'm condemning myself on air, ⁓ my goodness. I got the freedom of humankind still within me, okay? Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I'm Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. ⁓ Words are really important to you. What's your least favorite word? Anthony Gedell: My least favorite word. Jennifer Jumba: Very introspective. Anthony Gedell: That's right, my least favorite word. Jennifer Jumba: If it helps, I'll tell you mine is slacks. women, are you going to wear a pair of pants? I'm going to wear a pair of slacks. No, you're going to wear a pair of pants. Does that help? ⁓ Anthony Gedell: relax That is so funny. I love that. That is great. And the only committed artists are those who, without refusing to take up arms, are those who refuse to join the regular army. So you are not in the slacks army. I get it. I get it. Yeah. Wow. So that's good answer. Jennifer Jumba: I am not in the sex army. You pants. It's okay, we can skip if you want. Anthony Gedell: I don't like the word. narcissist because I find that as a country it's a huge problem it's also a hugely misunderstood and miss word improperly defined word. Jennifer Jumba: fair. And then the last question, what song is always on your road trip playlist? Anthony Gedell: ⁓ wow. So I have a lot. have a very eclectic playlist. ⁓ I'm only going to say no, this is not going to really reach anyone. But, know, there's this punk rock band I really love every time I die. And their last two albums are more accessible. I think what is it? Low Teens and Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Anthony Gedell: I forget their last album, the name of it. I'm only bringing this up because he's also, he could be said to be my favorite poet, Keith Buckley, who's also a novelist. has incredible books called Scale and Watch. Incredible. But his lyrics are extremely provocative and very profound. if you, I'm all over the place. My playlists all over place. ⁓ I mean, won't even the, There's a song by Keith Buckley called Pedal. And lyrics the most provocative, or it is the most provocative poem, let's call it, I think, ⁓ that I've ever read. I'm all over place. I'm loving this new band. But it's kind of heavy rock again. But again, I'm... Jennifer Jumba: Right, set to music. Anthony Gedell: country and whatever it is, jazz. I digress on that. I'll leave it at one. But I'm all over the place. the lyrics on that song is just... ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: So do think you'll write a song? you're so poetic and your language is so, as you said, emotionally resonant? Anthony Gedell: Only if you sing it, Jennifer. Jennifer Jumba: not going anywhere then. ⁓ Anthony Gedell: Nah, all right, well, what is that? Death on Arrival, our record label. Nah, well, you got a voice for this and we're lucky. We're lucky. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, it's exactly right. Yeah, I do not have a voice for singing. ⁓ lucky to all of you. Anthony Gedell: No, I think art today depends on our courage and our desire to see clearly and boy do you help us see clearly, Jennifer. Jennifer Jumba: Wow, thank you. Thank you to all of you who were listening. A huge thank you again to Anthony for such a great conversation about love lies in the throes of rhetoric, which is available now. If you want to read a story that is written with such beautiful and powerful language that it is impossible to just fly through the story, this is for you. Anthony has such a way with words and language that seem to crawl up into your head, heart, and soul as you journey with these characters. out who else is visiting, go to storiedaccount.com. This is Storied Account with Jen Jumba.