Latest / Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast / Session 4- Song of Songs & Ecclesiastes- Dan Viner & Tim Dobson Summer25

Transcript

Session 4- Song of Songs & Ecclesiastes- Dan Viner & Tim Dobson Summer25 · Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_05: Well welcome to uh to Bible school.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_05: This is the um just the last of our summer summer Bible school um evenings.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um how many of you have been to all three so far?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_05: Ah, look at these keen people, well done.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh if uh if you haven't been here before and you want to hear the sessions, uh they were have all been recorded and recording tonight as well.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_05: So if you go on to the uh the website wonderschurch.net slash Bible school, uh you'll find all the the some Bible schools, you'll find previous Bible schools that we've done as well.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_05: So if you want to look at Genesis or one and two Timothy, or uh you want to look at some Bible themes, uh there's quite a lot of uh resources that are on there.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh my friend Rebecca was going to join us this evening to help talk about the Book of Song of Songs, but something's quite at work, so she's unable to be here this evening.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_05: So uh Dan and myself were gonna take uh take the sessions.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so uh Rebecca would have some great things to say, uh, but unfortunately she can't be here.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_05: Um so if you've been here so far, we've been looking at what's what's called the the wisdom literature.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_05: So that's the middle kind of five books in the Old Testament.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh the books of uh Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um for those, um again, it's it's kind of how to.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_05: So it's so it's it's how to, the book of Job is how to suffer, how to suffer well.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_05: Uh as it investigates the kind of um some of those thoughts around, and and Phil Thomas was here, helped us to kind of look at that.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_05: Again, quite a tricky, complex book, uh, but we're living in a world where there is suffering.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_05: How do we navigate that with our understanding of God and and something of the of the mystery sometimes, of questions that we never get answered?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_05: How can we find some kind of resolution?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_05: And the book of Job was telling us how to suffer well.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_05: The book of Psalms is how to praise well, how how to praise God, how to bring our prayers, our laments, um, our thanksgivings, uh, this whole collection of 150 uh songs and poems uh that help us to praise God well.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, the book of Proverbs we looked at last week, which was how to act well in a world made by God, made in his image as we are.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_05: How do we navigate?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_05: How do we act uh well in his world uh towards God, towards one another in society?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_05: So the book of Proverbs gave us the wisdom of how to act well.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_05: So the two we're gonna do try and do tonight is I'm gonna kind of kick off with Ecclesiastes, uh, how to enjoy life.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_05: And I might think, Ecclesiastes is what do you mean it's about how to enjoy life?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_05: Well, we'll probably see that in a moment or two.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_05: And the Song of Songs is How to Love Well.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, and and Dan's gonna be kicking us off as we think around the book of Song of Songs.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_05: Is that okay?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_05: So um, can I just say a prayer for us as we start?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_05: Um, thank you so much for your written word.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, written kind of many centuries ago, and yet somehow it still has the profound power uh to speak into our lives today.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_05: Where there's so much knowledge at our fingertips um with Google search and AI, actually, this uh kind of wisdom is sometimes very hard to find.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_05: And I thank you that these books, right at the centre of the Old Testament, give us uh an insight and how to live wisely.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_05: And I pray uh tonight as we look at these two books that again both of them bring them kind of questions as why they're there in the Bible.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I pray that you'd help us to navigate them well and to read them well and to find again there's eternal truth hidden within the pages that speaks into our lives today.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_05: In Jesus' name.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_05: Amen.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, Book of Ecclesiastes.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um I don't know, I don't know what your if you if you how many of you of you've read the Book of Ecclesiastes kind of before?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_05: If you had to kind of try and describe it in one or two words, how how would you kind of try and describe it?
• 4:00
  unknown: Meaningless.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_05: Meaningless! It's all meaningless.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_05: Negative, quite entertaining?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_05: Anybody else?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Angst.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_05: Bit bleak, sorry?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Angst.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_05: Full of angst?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_05: Tell you what, um, let's read chapter one.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_05: Just just to get if you so if you've never read it, chapter one kind of gives you a bit of a flavour of what the book of Ecclesiastes is like.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um would anybody like to read chapter one for us in a nice loudish voice?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_05: Anyone got that book there open?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um Ecclesiastes chapter one.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_05: If not, I can read it.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_08: We'll read it if you like.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_05: That's okay, David?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_08: Okay.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_08: Uh the words of the teacher, son of David, king of Jerusal yeah, King in Jerusalem.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_08: Meaningless, meaningless.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_08: Say the teacher, utterly meaningless.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_08: Everything is meaningless.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_08: What do people gain from all their labor?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_08: At which they fall under the sun.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_08: Generations come, generations go, the earth generation.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_08: The sun lies, and the sun set, and the clear, the way it lies.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_08: The wind blows to the sun.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_08: What do you do?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_08: With much wisdom, comes much sorrow.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_08: The more knowledge, the more grief.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_05: Do you feel cheered up already?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_05: And it goes on.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_05: Most of the book is in that kind of tone.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_05: And you might think, okay, how are we going to read the book of Ecclesiastes?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_05: How do we read it well?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_05: And some people might think, well, let's just do let's just do this.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if any of you go into a little pick and mix shop.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_05: And um, if you go into pick and mix shop, there's all this array of stuff, and uh you'll just pick out your favourites because you know it's the kind of the slightly sour jelly snakes, or it's the it's the kind of the mushroomy, whatever they are, that that you just love.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_05: So and you you just each time you just pick out the bits that you love.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_05: And some people think, well, I'll go to the book of Ecclesiastes, and you know what?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's so bleak, but there's a few little bits I can pick out that are kind of quite sweet and I quite like.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_05: And and do we just treat the book of Ecclesiastes like a pick and mixed store?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_05: So we might kind of look at things like um, two are better than one because they have a good return for their labour.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah, two is better than one, actually, that's that's that's kind of um uh about friendship.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_05: Um or you might think, pick one out, um, he set eternity in the heart in the human heart, yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, there's something about maybe you you talk uh to friends and who aren't yet Christians, but there's something in inside of them that there's there's more than just this human life.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, and God's put eternity in our hearts, that we we kind of yearn for something that's more than what we can see with our our eyes and sense without.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: So maybe you kind of you quite like that one, and you pick it out of the tray of sweets.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_05: A chord of three strands is not quickly broken.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if any of you had that at your wedding, and uh if you've got if you're married here.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_05: But actually, again, we can just pick a mix.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_05: We can just kind of pick out, that's a great little verse.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_05: It means something, and uh God maybe can speak to us through that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_05: Um I don't know why you were into Ecclesiastes 3.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_05: Do you know Ecclesiastes 3?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_05: There's a time for this, a time for that.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_05: There's a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven, a time to be born, a time to die, a time to plant, a time to read, a time to go to war, a time to make peace, a time to and again, some people think, well, uh actually I can't I quite like that as as a as a poem.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_05: It kind of has got a bit of rhythm to it, and and we'll see in a minute that kind of maybe it's not, it's talking more about the tyranny of time rather than the wonder of time.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but we'll come back to that in a minute.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_05: But again, that that would be a book of Ecclesiastes that some people may may look to and think, okay, that's a lovely little kind of poetic something, uh, talking about about uh the seasons of life.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um maybe people are politically minded, they they pick at this verse.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of the the heart of the wise are inclined to the right, but the heart of the fools to the left.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_05: And you think you might kind of pick a mix, oh I'll take that out of my my political leanings.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe the Bible is justifying um being more on the right than the left.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um not true.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_05: Uh uh just saying.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_05: But uh but what I'm saying is that sometimes when a book like Ecclesiastes is quite hard, um the slightly easy thing is to do is I'm just gonna pick out the nice bits because the rest of it just seems like David just wrote read that, it just seems so bleak.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_05: And I when I come to the Bible, I want to be encouraged, I want to be cheered up.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_05: I don't want to be faced with bleakness.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_05: Um and and I think in some ways it's kind of fine to pick a mix, but it's not like a real proper meal, is it?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's not I I don't think that's quite how uh the writer of Ecclesiastes intended it to be read, and I don't think that's why it was included in God's Word.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_05: There's something more than just picking out a few nice little morsels from uh yeah, 13 chapters of 12 chapters of bleakness.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um so what we want to try and do is want to try and think, okay, how how do we uh navigate this book uh well?
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_05: How do we understand kind of how it's put together, uh, try and understand something of why it was written, what some of the main kind of points were, and again how it helps us uh to live well, and and how to actually, in the end of the day, how to enjoy life well.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_05: From David reading that first chapter, you might think it's got nothing to do with enjoying life.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_05: But actually, if we look at the structure, look at the content, and look at the direction of travel, uh, there's something there that can help us all, I think.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_05: Um, some people look at this first verse and think, actually, this is this is the kind of I mean this is the motif of the of the book.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_05: Uh this uh teacher, this philosopher has been investigating stuff, and the conclusion he's come to is meaningless, meaningless, says the teacher.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_05: Utterly meaningless.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_05: Everything is meaningless.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_05: Now, is that entirely true?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_05: Or if you pursue a certain line of thought, that is the conclusion you come to.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_05: And I think what the book of Ecclesiastes is trying to do is this.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, the the the structure of the book is there's a little intro by the author, and there's a little comment at the end, sorry, by sorry, by the editor, and a little comment at the end by the editor.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_05: And the main bulk of it is by this person, uh, the teacher.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_05: I again, my Hebrew is not wonderful, so I will not attempt to pronounce that word.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh, but this this word means kind of teacher, philosopher, professor, uh, somebody who's kind of done a lot of thinking about stuff.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_05: So, verse one is this this kind of editor, we're not quite exactly sure when this was put together, uh, but he he he introduces the teacher, and then for the last few verses of chapter 12, verse 9 to 14, um, he comments on what the teacher, what the conclusion the teachers uh come to.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_05: Um so that's just a little bit about the structure.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_05: Um the teacher who says here is a son of David.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um, some people jumped to the conclusion it must be Solomon, who's the son of David, who is a wisdom.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, we're not totally sure.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_05: It could be Solomon, actually, it could be later king, one of David's ancestors, so therefore a son of David.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_05: Um it seems to be that as well as a teacher philosopher, he he was a king in Jerusalem.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh so but we're not exactly sure who the teacher that the editor is talking about, whether it's Solomon or whether it's somebody else.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_05: Is that okay?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_05: Um so this is kind of it's called pessimism literature.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_05: Now you might pick that up already.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_05: Um uh now uh how many of you here would think you're an you're an optimist?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_05: Put your hands up.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_05: How many of you are a pessimist?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, my wife is a pessimist.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_05: I asked her before I came out, what's the advantage of being a pessimist?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_05: Because I'm an optimist.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_05: And a pessimist thinks about all the things that could possibly happen and is prepared for anything because kind of a pessimist looks at kind of things in a certain way.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_05: An optimist maybe comes to think, oh, it'll be fine, and doesn't necessarily think about things deeply.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_05: I'm an optimist.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_05: I think, you know what, I've got a meeting at 12, but I can probably get three jobs done before I have to leave, and I'm sure I can get there in ten minutes.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_05: And I I do my three jobs, and it takes 20 minutes to get there, and and my optimism quite often lets me down.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_05: But a pessimist will look at something from all kinds of different angles and will come to a conclusion that actually, in the end, they may be quite helpful to someone who's an optimist.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_05: And it's almost pessimism literature, does that?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_05: It looks at kind of the philosophy from all kinds of the negative angles, but what it does in the end is it highlights all the negative things and but brings with it some sense of hope and some sense of purpose.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_05: And it looks slightly negatively at all the angles, but actually it does come up with an answer that is really helpful.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_05: So um so pessimism, so as you read through it, actually is quite kind of pessimistic.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_05: It is quite negative.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's trying to kind of look at from all the angles, maybe from slightly a negative point of view, but comes within it, as he he looks pessimistically at kind of human philosophies, and uh he does come up with some little nuggets of of hope that have had the pessimists kind of uh treatment.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_05: And so it's not an optimist who says these things, it's a pessimist who says these things, therefore, maybe they are something to be held on to, rather than a kind of an optimist who thinks brightly and cheerfully about all kinds of life.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_05: That makes sense.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_05: Um literature that was around in the kind of um in the Middle Far East uh at the time.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_05: Uh uh this is the only example we have in the Bible of pessimism literature.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_05: Um, there's a f there's a few phrases that appear quite often in the book.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_05: And in some ways, for me, when I see that there's a phrase or a word that appears quite often, uh, particularly in a passage that I don't understand or seems a bit complex, I might look for reoccurring words because reoccurring words will then give me an idea of the theme of what people are trying to say.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_05: And so if you look at the reoccurring words, you think, okay, I can, from these reoccurring words, ah, he's this part of the Bible is trying to talk about this.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_05: So in Romans chapter 7, it I think it's that Paul says I 20-something times.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_05: I I wish I I want to do this and I find myself doing this.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_05: I want to be good and I'm bad.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_05: And and and you and you read through, and in my Bible I've highlighted the word the word I every time.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_05: And it's like someone's got a chicken box, and it's it's all there.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_05: Chapter 8 doesn't mention I once, but it mentions the spirit, uh, I think it's five or six times.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_05: And actually, it's this contrast of chapter seven, I, I, I, I, and chapter eight, actually, what can I do?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_05: Well, thanks be to God, through Christ Jesus and through his spirit that helps us, and I can do more than so in in here, phrases that occur quite often are this, are these.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_05: There's a phrase under the sun.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_05: So 37 times, sorry, 27 times, there's a phrase under the sun, uh, and it's kind of rephrased under the heavens.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_05: So the first thing, if almost 30 times the philosopher, this teacher, is having some thought processes, what he's predominantly looking at is things that are under the sun, things that are to do with the heavenly rather than the spiritual world.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_05: So his investigations and his treatise, actually, he's trying to find out kind of the purpose of life.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, he's trying to find out the meaning of life.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_05: But in all but his pursuit is he just looks at what are the human philosophies?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, what is there under the sun?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_05: Not or under the heavens.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_05: Not in the heavens, I'm not looking for meaning in the heavens, I'm looking for meaning under the sun, um, or under under the heavens.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_05: Does that make sense?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_05: So predominantly it's to it's his investigation, his arguments are to do with the very physical world in which we live.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_05: Um again, the word meaningless appears 33 times uh in the book.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_05: Um and this is the Hebrew word hevel, and and um uh yeah, the N V would kind of translate it kind of meaningless or pointless.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_05: Um the word hevel I mean it can be translated into like a like any when you try and translate a word um from Hebrew into English or from Greek into English or from German or Spanish into English, actually sometimes there's a number of different choices of words you can use.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_05: Um and this word can be meaningless, but um it's got this kind of feeling of smoke or vapour.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of smoke looks as though it should be something, and you go to kind of grasp it and your hand goes straight through it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_05: It looks as though it has some substance, but it there's there's nothing you can really grasp hold of.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_05: And and and what the book of Ecclesiastes is trying to say is if you just look at everything under the heavens, actually it's kind of it's like trying to grab smoke in your hands.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_05: A kind of it it's kind of it's it's it's meaningless, it's it's pointless.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_05: Um he uses the phrase um chasing after the wind again nine times.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_05: I don't I don't know if you've ever tried to chase after the wind.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: Uh you can't do it, can you?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_05: You might be trying to chase after a leaf that the wind's blowing, but actually, if you try and chase the wind, actually it's pointless, it's meaningless.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of, what do you mean chasing the wind?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_05: It's just it's the it's the variation of atmospheric pressure that causes the movement of the of the air and and kind of and and so he uses this phrase kind of I've investigated all these things under the heaven, and it's like you're trying to chase the wind.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_05: Come on, guys, if if this is the best that human philosophy can bring, actually it is meaningless.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's like trying to grab smoke or grab some kind of steam, or it's trying to chase after the wind.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and that's the conclusion he comes to.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_05: He comes to that conclusion um uh when he thinks about this.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_05: So, what he's trying to do, he's trying to deconstruct all the ways of finding meaning apart from God.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_05: So it's like, I'm gonna have a go at finding uh the point, how to enjoy life, the meaning of life.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna start, my assumption is that God doesn't exist.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_05: And for every theory that you have, you start with an assumption.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_05: I used to be a physics teacher, and I know you still start with an assumption, and then you try an experiment to prove that the assumption is true.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_05: In philosophy, you start with assumptions.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_05: And so the assumption that he starts off as he looks at these different human philosophies, is the assumption is there's no God.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_05: Or the assumption is God's got nothing to do with this physical world.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_05: It's everything under the heavens, everything under the sun.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_05: And what he does is he deconstructs the way of finding meaning uh in life apart from God.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_05: So as you read through kind of through from chapter kind of one through to chapter, halfway through chapter 12, uh you'll find that he he looks at all kinds of things.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_05: And he he describes in a kind of very philosophical way okay, what if you tried to pursue wealth?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_05: Ah, well, you you get your money, but then uh eventually you're gonna die, and and then you pass it on to somebody and then you're never sure what they're gonna do with it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_05: And oh, that actually just pursuing wealth is it it's pointless, it's meaningless.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_05: It's like if you try.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_05: To live for wealth, it's like you're trying to chase it after the wind.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_05: In the end, you're physically gonna die, you're physically not gonna be able to take your money with you.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, it's it's meaningless to orientate your life around wealth.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_05: He thinks about pleasure, he talks about um a pursuit of uh he has some DIY projects, he's quite a good gardener, likes music and and singers, uh, quite enjoys sex.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um and and he's and he says, kind of, here's some pleasures that you so if you just live for happiness, if you just live for pleasure, and it goes through all the rationale of uh kind of people who live for pleasure, actually that kind of life is like it's kind of grabbing for vapour.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of it's it hasn't got substance, it hasn't got meaning.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_05: He also talks about academic studies, about searching for for knowledge and for wisdom.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_05: He talks about status and position.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_05: If you live for being somebody and something, uh kind of in the end of the day, death is a leveller, kind of it's it comes to us all, uh irrespective of what our status is.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_05: He talks about career and and and pursuing a particular line of work and and excellence.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_05: He talks about even religion, and some of it comes, he talks about even the pursuit of God in a kind of way, even that seems to be at times pointless or meaningless.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_05: So what the book is trying to do is he's trying to say, here's what you think you can enjoy life through wealth, you think you can enjoy life through pleasure, you think you can enjoy life through academic studies, through status, through career, through religion.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, the conclusion he comes to in his wise thinking is actually all of that is meaningless.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_05: Um the two things that he uh he particularly looks at is he talks about the tyranny of time.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_05: And we had a little bit in that bit David read about kind of history keeps repeating itself.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_05: There's nothing new under heaven.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_05: What has happened will happen again, and kind of uh and actually, even there's a time for this, a time for that, a time for the other, time for this, time for collecting time for sterile.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, he's trying to say actually there's a there's just a tyranny of time.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_05: And and if you're living in time without an eternal perspective, actually time is a tyranny.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of it just things keep on happening and relentlessly keep on happening, and you can't stop it, you can't get off, you can't kind of and he talks about the tyranny of time, and he talks about the inevitability of death.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_05: Any human philosophy, any human way excluding God, that you try and find meaning and purpose, in the end for everybody, death comes our way.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_05: And then it kind of where does the where does that leave you?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_05: Um so as you read through those twelve chapters, uh again you'll see uh again something about the um about the tyranny of time and the inevitability of death uh that comes through uh through his his thinking.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um, okay, a pessimist, uh kind of as an optimist, I think there's nothing positive about pessimism, but there is.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so even for as he pessimistically is looking at human philosophy, actually, within his trying to grasp something, actually God has put eternity in your heart.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, God's put something that is above the heavens, is part of the heavenliness, actually has made us spiritual.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_05: So as we live through life, he says actually we can catch a glimpse.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_05: Even wise and clever people can catch a glimpse.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_05: They can catch a glimpse of God as a creator.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_05: Chapter 7, verse 13, 29, uh 11, verse 5.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, we can catch a glimpse that this physical world under the heavens actually has got a creator, a designer, a planner, a sustainer.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_05: There's something about this physical world that, if you were to look at it, actually, which is what Paul says in Romans 1, verse 20, that since the beginning of the world, his invisible character, his divine power have been seen.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_05: Why?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: Through what he's made.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, even the kind of um scientists trying to investigate the physical things of this world uh can find God.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_05: And it's amazing the number of scientists who do find God because they're just amazed at the physical world, the complexity.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, the the further and further my field of science was physics, the further and further you go into physics, the more you discover there's mystery and uncertainty and wonder that has a spiritual nature to it.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_05: Um you glimpse as well that there's uh uh there's a sovereign provider in what seems to be the tyranny of time.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_05: There are times when God breaks in, when God, in his will, with his ways, he does kind of break in and does provide.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_05: You get a glimpse that uh that God is wisdom.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_05: There's something about there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom, and we can find knowledge about the stuff we can investigate, but true wisdom is found in God, and we looked at a bit of that last last week.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_05: Um yeah, Ecclesiastes kind of says kind of has this little kind of um refrain uh that says, Do you know what?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_05: A good meal?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_05: Friends, family.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, they are a gift from God.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_05: Again, philosophically, he would he would come to that conclusion actually, um, in all the stuff that's meaningless and pointless, actually to sit down and eat a good meal with somebody.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_05: Or in all that's going on, to have friends who kind of are close to you, who feel your pain and you understand theirs, and somehow in this life there's friendship.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_05: Two are better than one.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_05: Three chords are hard to break.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_05: Um, there's something about the gift of God.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: Um, so um in enjoy them.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_05: So um, this is an example of Ecclesiastes chapter two.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_05: A person can do nothing better than eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_05: This too I see is from the hand of God, for without him, who can eat or find enjoyment?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um that kind of all reflame, slightly slightly uh tweaked and slightly changed, uh, would uh appear um uh in these in these passages.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_05: So chapter 3, verse 13, chapter 3, 22, chapter 5, 18, chapter 8, 15, and chapter 9, verse uh verse 7.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_05: There's a kind of little bit of a ha on the book of Ecclesiastes.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_05: Any any questions or any thoughts or any comments on any of that?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_09: On um pessimism, I think people are let down on that current by life than uh to be a pessimist.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_09: And second thing, Ecclesiastes.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_09: Is it the name of a person and a place?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_09: And a red Hebrew name?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_05: That is a very good question.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know why it's called Ecclesiastes.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: I've never thought that.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe we could ask Google.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe Google knows.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_10: It says the septurgent.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_05: Septrugent?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_05: That's the Latin version of the Old Testament.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_10: The word for teacher is Ecclesiastes, from which most English titles.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_05: So it's from the Septent, which is so the Old Testament is either in in Hebrew or um in in Greek is it Greek or Latin?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_05: Greek, yeah, it's Greek.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_05: Um and there's a few little kind of tweaks and changes, kind of um uh with the Greek um ecclesiastes, uh ecclesiastical, which is to do with the church and churchy stuff.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_08: Do you think that do you think that um with all stuff that's written in Ecclesiastes, even though there's a lot of negativity in it, do you think there's an element of truth?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_05: Well, yeah, I think I think the element of truth is that um if you really want to enjoy life, you need God.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_05: So it's it's it's rationale, if you if you pursue this line of thought without God, or this line of thought without God, or this line of thought without God, or this line of thought without God, actually you'll find that everything's meaningless.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_05: So in effect, the whole book summed up with just the last comment from the editor, which says, actually, if you pursue all these things without God, what if you started with fearing God, like we looked at at the book of Proverbs?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, if you start with fearing God, then you find that, and it goes, and you go but track back through, actually, that yeah, food and meat, a good meal and friends and family, they're they're a gift from God.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, something about God that even if you can understand he's a creator or he's a provider, so there's something about the the way that it's arguing is it's trying to deconstruct human wisdom, human philosophy, and to say actually if you just follow human philosophy in life, and your starting point is there is no God, you'll come to a conclusion that is always meaningless.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_05: But what if your presupposition is not that there isn't a God, what if your presupposition that there is a God?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, life will look totally different for you.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's not that you'll be without your pressures, without your struggles, like we looked at in the book of Job, but actually there's something about life that you find, you do find meaning rather than meaninglessness.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_05: You do find purpose rather than purposelessness.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: Does that make sense?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_05: So, in some ways, it's kind of twelve and a half chapters of kind of uh of bleakness, and actually it's just the last few little verses that that show us something.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_05: Um so those few, so if we just turn to the last last book of uh the last bit of um book of Ecclesiastes, um so this is the comment, the conclusion of the matter, it says the NOV, um verse 9.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_05: Not only was the teacher wise, so now this is the editor talking, not only was the teacher wise, but also he imparted knowledge to the people.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_05: He pondered and searched out and set out uh it set in order many proverbs.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_05: The teacher searched to find just the right words, and what he wrote was upright and true.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_05: So he did his research well around what human philosophy was, kind of he he did he did it thoroughly, he kind of um he worked really well.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_05: The words of the wines are like goads, they're like kind of pointy sticks that you prod sheep with.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_05: Uh they're collective sayings, like firmly embedded nails, given by one shepherd.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_05: Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_05: For making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_05: Now, all has been heard.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_05: Here is the conclusion of the matter.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_05: Wait for it, wait for it.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_05: Fear God and keep his commandments, for that's the whole duty of man.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_05: And basically, that is the point of the book of Ecclesiastes, is to reach that conclusion.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_05: If you go through all this human philosophy, you'll find some easingness.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_05: But this is the conclusion of the matter.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_05: Fear God, keep his commands, for this is the whole duty of man.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_05: For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it's good or evil.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_05: So, in some ways, that that is the punchline.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_05: That's the point.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_05: What I did with Proverbs last week and Psalms the week before, um, was to think um Christocentrically.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_05: So um uh it says in um in Colossians chapter three it says this these, what was written in the Old Testament, uh, kind of, and Old Testament kind of traditions and rituals, uh, these were a shadow of things that were to come.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_05: The reality, however, is found in Christ.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_05: Um a bit like a shadow that a bright sun casts on the ground, it has the outline of the person.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_05: That gives you a little idea of what the person's like.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_05: That's not the real person, but it gives you an idea about the real person.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_05: And in some ways, the Old Testament isn't about Jesus, but it gives us some ideas about Jesus.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_05: It gives us a little outline of what Jesus is like.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_05: Um so uh I think if you look in most books, you'll find a little kind of a little shadow, a little something that might point you towards Jesus.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_05: Now, I don't know if you just noticed in those, in that editor's words at the end, two little strange things.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if you if you noticed that um uh the words of the wives are like goads.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_05: The collector's sayings are like firmly embedded nails given by one shepherd.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_05: And in some translates it's capital S.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_05: Now, where do we find firmly embedded nails?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_05: In the hands of Jesus on the cross.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, where do we find one shepherd?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_05: The one good shepherd is Jesus.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_05: So here, even in this human philosophy of what they're trying to find, even as he comes to the conclusion, again, unwittingly, perhaps, but maybe guided by the Spirit, actually, if you truly want to find meaning and purpose in life, look for some well-embedded nails.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_05: Where would he find them?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_05: In the hands and feet of Jesus.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_05: What was he doing there?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_05: He was actually trying to win us from sin, shame, and meaninglessness to a sense of identity.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_05: We are the children of God.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_05: We were created by him, known by him.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_05: Our life isn't just a meaningless vapor that we're chasing after a wind.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, we're known and created by him, won by him.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, in our wandering, Jesus says, I am the good shepherd.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_05: I've come to look for my sheep.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_05: My sheep hear my voice, and and and there's something about how do we find where human philosophies will tell us all kinds of stuff.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, there's something so simple and amazing that actually God in Jesus is like a good shepherd for you.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, in the questions you have of life, in the human philosophies, maybe you've tried following, actually, to find that there is in Jesus a good shepherd.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_05: And again, it he's not definitely 100% talking about Jesus, but it's a bit like a shadow that's cast there.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_05: That when you look at the reality of Jesus, he did have firmly embedded nails.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_05: He did say that he was the good shepherd.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_05: He has got something to do with the questions about the meaning of life and the purpose of life.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_05: Does that does that kind of make make sense?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_05: Or do you think I'm pushing things to the extreme?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I was a little bit competent about the food and public because I guess it's like the walls of like God in a sense of like everyone wants to.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: So why would you specify those things?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_05: As being a gift of God.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think there's something about um when God made us, he had a totally blank canvas.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_05: And he created us in his image.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_05: And so community is something that is part of the Godhead.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_05: So actually, well where we find community, whether that's with friends or whether that's with family, actually somehow that is reflective of the nature and character of God.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_05: So in that respect, it's within all human existence and every human culture.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_05: Food is a very much part of every human culture.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, friendship is part of every human culture.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_05: Uh now, anthropologists might give you some evolutionary reasons why that is.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, what the person's saying here is actually that's that's a God-given gift for us because that's the nature and character of God, is that He's there for family and friends, and actually there's something about he could have created and designed our bodies to be a perpetual motion person, but actually we need food.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, and food's quite enjoyable.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_05: Ah, well, why did God make us to because we're dependent on something else to keep us going.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_05: We can't be self-sufficient, we've got to take the the wheat from the fields and make bread, and actually we've got to, we've got to, we need bread to live by.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_05: That's what God can think.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_05: But actually, man can't live just on bread alone.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_05: There's something about God's connection with us and his relationship with us that's that's behind it all.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_05: So, in some ways, those three things are things that you rightly start.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_05: You identify and think, well, everybody wants that, but does everyone want that because everyone wants that?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_05: And then evolutionists can say, I start from the fact that I believe in evolution and not God, therefore, food, family, and friends are this?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_05: Or you start with God and say, God is community, and therefore we have a longing for food, family, and friends.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_05: Does that make sense?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_05: And if if that's the case, then in some ways it's a it's a gift of God in creation to to us and and to ever every society around the world.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_05: Any other questions or comments or thoughts?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_05: Uh yes.
• 39:52
  unknown: Okay.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_10: Um the question had a minute ago by um the nails in the chat.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_10: In terms of the Old Testament meaning without knowing that Jesus is reading now.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_05: What was the what did the nails have to do with Yeah, yeah.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_05: I mean it's almost it it could be like um uh I don't know.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_05: You go to IKEA, you build yourself a uh a wardrobe, or you could have a wardrobe that's handmade with embedded nails.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna last.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_05: It could have been something to do with with with carpentry, with with something that was was well embedded to hold life together.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_05: Um shepherd, uh a king was often called a shepherd.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_10: Moses was a shepherd in the Ten Commandments that are later referenced to verses, I think.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_05: So so Moses was a shepherd, Abraham was a shepherd, David was a shepherd.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, to be a shepherd seems to be quite a biblical kind of um and and uh a shepherd teacher was one of the roles of uh of the anointed kings.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_05: Um so so it could have been who's referring back to again.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_05: This is how you can have a solid, well-held together life, and they were given by Solomon or the son of David, or whoever the the shepherd happened to be.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_07: Um could it not be, pardon me, but I don't know what goads means, but the collective sayings are like firmly embedded nails.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_07: Firmly embedded nails are like rock in the stone, aren't they?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_07: It's just solid.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, yeah, solemn and firm.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_07: The sayings was I mean it's that's how I taper.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_05: A goad was it was a pointy bit on the on the end of a stick, and you'd point your poke your sheep to get them to go in the right direction.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_05: So a shepherd would use a goad to to keep it keep the sheep if they're get getting into trouble and weren't following him, you'd go and give them a good old poke with this sharp pointy stick, and that's what a goad is.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_05: And again, uh whether there was they used nails on the end of the sticks to rather than just more sense because if it was directing the flock.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_10: Um than the firm nails is that that direction is unshakable.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_10: Yes.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_10: So fall off the end of the rock.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_10: But that thing will remain.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_10: Yes.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, it could be that as an older man he's now looking back on the past and wish as a younger man, I wish there'd been somebody who poked me a bit more with the stick.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_05: So, yeah, and for Proverbs and for um uh say it's an older man referring to a younger generation with this wisdom, and it it could be the same there.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_05: Um, just before we finish, um uh again, is is Ecclesiastes used in the in the rest of the New Testament?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_05: Um and it's not kind of quoted like some other books are quoted, but in some ways the themes of Ecclesiastes, so um Romans chapter 8, when Paul talks about um, I consider that in our present that our present suffering is not worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed to us.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_05: For the creation eagerly waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_05: For the creation was subject to frustration, not of its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it in hope.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_05: That the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and the glory of the children of God.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_05: So again, kind of creation is kind of groaning, ah, kind of, and kind of and and that groaning is the the meaningless, the the try.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_05: To grasp after the vapor, chasing the wind.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_05: There's frustration there.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_05: And as you read through the book of Ecclesiastes, you say that there's frustration.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_05: But how is that frustration released?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_05: Well, there's hope there.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_05: Again, there's a few little bits of hope in Ecclesiastes.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_05: But eventually the children of God come along, and through Jesus, they actually bring about the opening of the new heaven, new earth.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_05: Again, the other bit is Ecclesiastes 5, kind of 8 to 20, is probably talking about being contented in life.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_05: And again, it's probably when Paul in 1 Timothy chapter 6 says, But Godness with contentment is a great gain, for we brought nothing into the world and we take nothing out of it.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_05: Again, this is what if you live just for wealth, what happens when you die is it's all it's all gone.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_05: But if we have food and clothing, again, maybe you could put family and friends in there as well.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_05: If we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_05: Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and into a trap and to many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_05: And again, maybe it's Paul's reflections on some of chapter five of the book of Ecclesiastes that is the sense of contentment of how do you find contentment rather than grasping for meaning in wealth and possession and status.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_05: Great.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_05: So Proverbs starts with this idea: the fear of the Lord is the beginning wisdom.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, in some ways, this is where Ecclesiastes ends.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_05: Ends there.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_05: Ends with now this having all heard, here's the conclusion of the matter.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_05: Fear God, keep his commands, for this is the duty of all mankind.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_05: And in some ways, that's the book of Ecclesiastes.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_05: Any of that kind of makes sense?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe if you've never read it, maybe think you I I now feel prepared to go away and and face the pessimistic literature and kind of see through that human philosophy and then the conclusions that he always comes to, it's meaningless.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_05: But the conclusion at the end is fear God, keep his commands.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_08: I think I can understand his point in a way.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_08: Because without God, everything is meaningless, right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_05: But and people do try and find meaning though.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_05: In society state, they find try and find meaning in money, career, status, academic pursuit, kind of celebrity.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean that's what the writers say here is that that's what happens.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_05: Great.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, just before Dan comes to Song Songs, why don't you turn to the person next to you and say one thing I'm gonna take away from uh this session on Book of Cleaning CS next time I read it is thanks, uh thanks very much.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's now time to execute a bit of a tone shift, and we're gonna move from bleak pessimism and meaninglessness into the Song of Songs, which is about as far from that as we can get.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: It is um I mean if you've if you've come across the Song of Songs before, you might know I've actually got a disclaimer here because it is pretty wild.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we I think we're all adults in the room, it's okay, but like it is it's pretty intense physically, sexually.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: The imagery in Song of Songs is graphic in in lots of ways, and that has led to a bit of confusion over history about how to approach it, how to deal with it.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: How are we supposed to approach this kind of stuff in our Bibles?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just like David reading out Ecclesiastes there, it kind of gets our minds into, oh wow, this is it is quite bleak, isn't it?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit depressing.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I was debating whether to ask anyone to read out uh Song of Songs, but it felt a bit unfair, so I'll just read it myself.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna read the first chapter and just you know, listen to the imagery, you know, the the kind of the way that language works.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: We'll have a quick listen through uh and then um afterwards I'm just gonna ask you to turn to the person next to you and just say uh what do you think of when you think of Song of Songs?
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do you know about it?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any questions that you might have that you you would like to answer in this in this session now?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I'll read it first uh and then we can get into it.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: So this is from the uh the NIV Solomon's Song of Songs.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is more delightful than wine.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasing is the fragrance of your perfumes, your name is like perfume poured out.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: No wonder the maidens love you.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Take me away with you, let us hurry.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let the king bring me into his chambers.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: We rejoice and delight in you, we will praise your love more than wine.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: How right they are to adore you.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: Dark am I yet lovely.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: O daughters of Jerusalem, dark like the tents of Kadar, like the tent curtains of Solomon.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do not stare at me because I am dark, because I am darkened by the sun.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: My mother's sons were angry with me, and they made me take care of the vineyards, my own vineyard I have neglected.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, you whom I love, where you graze your flock, and where you rest your sheep at midday.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why should I be like a veiled woman beside the flocks of your friends?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you do not know, most beautiful of women, follow the tracks of the sheep, and graze your young goats by the tents of the shepherds.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: I liken you, my darling, to a mare, harnessed to one of the chariots of Pharaoh.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Your cheeks are beautiful with earrings, your neck with strings of jewels.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: We will make you earrings of gold studded with silver.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: While the king was at his table, my perfume spread his fragrance.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: My lover is to me a cluster of henna blossoms from the vineyards of Engedi.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: How beautiful you are, my darling.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, how beautiful.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: Your eyes are doves.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: How handsome you are, my lover, oh how charming, and our bed is verdant.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: The beams of our house are cedars, our rafters are furs.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now that we're all suitably warmed up for conversation, why don't you turn to the people next to you and just talk about Song of Songs for a minute, and then we'll feed back.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've got any questions that you're interested to discuss, do let me know, and we can have a look at them in the session.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, just take a minute or so.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds like there's some uh some good conversation going on.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um Let's take a minute, shall we?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: What what do we think about Song of Songs?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe should we start this kind of this sort of third of the room over here?
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: What do you guys think about Song of Songs?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: Any thoughts, any initial opinions, questions you you've got about it?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_06: My main question was, because when it says he and she, yeah.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um who is he and she?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: Great, yeah, it's a good question.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: Who are he and she?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we'll we'll touch on that.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's some there's some debate, but it's a good question.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: And anything else?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: Any any thoughts or things that strike you uh from the book if you've read it before?
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: Lot of smelling, yeah.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well I think there's one thing, you know, is it's a very it's a sensual book.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, aroma and you know, perfume and fragrance and you know the smell of of food and nature.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's sort of filling your senses up.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of the point of the book and what's going on there, you know, we can talk about that.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it's interesting to pick up straight away that like, oh, there's a lot of feel in the book, isn't there?
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's interesting to know for sure.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what about you guys uh in the middle?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh any thoughts, any questions?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: You think it's a love story?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it certainly seems to be, doesn't it, on the surface?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: It we'll we'll touch on uh what it might mean.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: But um any any questions?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um anything that people might want to want to discuss?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_07: We felt it can be interpreted on two levels the relationship between a man and a woman, but also a relationship between God and the church or something.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do we do you raise your hand or no, you're you're good.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: Any other uh anything else to to note before we start?
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, instead of just thinking it's quite interesting to get away from the same yeah, sometimes it's a church.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a bit sexy, isn't it?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's a lot going on that's quite intense.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: And actually you can appreciate that it might be tricky to uh to engage with, but we're gonna do it anyway.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: So um this is obviously um there's a lot going on here, but I think what what we're gonna do is um just give a bit of an overview, a bit of an intro to begin with.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: What's actually what's happening, what does the book mean, the title, all that kind of stuff.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: We'll do a bit of overview of what that sort of stuff is, uh, you know, discuss a little bit, you know, who might have written it, the the structure of the book, you know, such as it is, and then talk about some interpretations, you know, what's actually going on here.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then we'll just talk about it a bit, we'll discuss, because um, spoiler it, there's there's a lot of debate.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the hardest books to interpret and to nail down in the Old Testament because it's so unlike anything else.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean a bit like Ecclesiastes.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing else really like this in the Bible, and so it's tricky to pin down.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: But we're gonna have a go uh at just giving an overview of what of what's going on.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: So to begin with, Song of Songs, um, it might say Song of Solomon in your Bible, but the the Song of Songs is just it's a Hebrew idiom, it's just a way of saying the best of.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the Holy of Holies, the King of Kings.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: This is the ultimate song.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: This is the best and fullest expression of song.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting that that is about physical love.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: That there's, you know, at least on the surface, there's something to be noted there.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's obviously explicitly connected to Solomon.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, sometimes it's called the Song of Solomon.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and in verse one, it says the Song of Solomon.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you referenced um earlier, didn't you, that there's there's a lot of traditions that would say that Solomon wrote this, you know, possibly uh, you know, in his earlier years when he was a bit purer, a bit a bit younger and more you know physically um expressive.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um what do people largely say today?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's certainly the traditional um interpretation of it, you know, particularly in in Hebrew tradition.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, sort of the rabbis, you know, Jewish teachers would um talk about this as one of three books that Solomon wrote.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: This one, um Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, throughout his life.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly we see in One Kings that Solomon wrote a lot of songs.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: He wrote a lot of Proverbs, he he certainly was very expressive in a loving way to a lot of people.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: But it it doesn't necessarily chime with what we see about Solomon in the rest of the Bible.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: He obviously has a very challenging romantic history, but he has over a thousand women that he is either married to or he keeps to sleep with, basically, for no other reason than that.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't quite chime with what we see in Song of Songs, which is one man and one woman in a very exclusive and you know intense relationship.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't treat women in the best way.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: In in verse one, this this um the Song of Solomon, Tim mentioned before, you know, sometimes when we translate a word from one language into another, there can be some meaning lost.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: And Hebrew is uh is different to English and it has a lot fewer words.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: English has lots and lots and lots of words.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: We borrow from all different uh you know languages.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_01: Hebrew is a much older language and has much less words.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: So this word of can mean a lot of different things.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: It can mean by Solomon, to Solomon, dedicated to him, of Solomon, you know, about him, or kind of in the tradition of Solomon.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that Solomon wrote it necessarily.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact is that he's also not really mentioned in the book very much.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's a couple of you know mentions of his name.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, when he is mentioned, it's not always even in the best light.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right at the end of the book, Solomon appears and basically tries to buy love, which is explicitly the verse before said is a ridiculous thing.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the Solomon character is then ridiculed in the book.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: It would feel a bit maybe unusual if he wrote that himself about himself, but he's not even given a voice, he's always the subject, he's not the speaker.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, all in all, it it it feels to me at least that actually it's probably more in the tradition of Solomon rather than written by Solomon.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit like the Psalms are kind of in the tradition of David, he's the source of them, he's the kind of the historic inspiration.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: He wrote a lot of the psalms, but that's not to say that every single psalm was written by David or directly came from him, just like the Proverbs are in the tradition of Solomon, but they're not all purporting to be written by him.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: This feels a bit more like it's in the tradition of Solomon rather than explicitly written by him.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, it's it is one of the most challenging books to analyze because there's so much going on that doesn't really chime with what we see elsewhere in the Bible necessarily.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um so what what actually happens in this book?
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's eight chapters, there's a little intro, a couple of verses, and a little conclusion at the end, but in the middle, there's not really a structure.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's one of the things that I quite like looking at in the Bible is how it's put together and this verse marries with this verse, and there's a symmetry.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, this this is pretty fluid.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's not even consensus among people today, scholars who've studied this for decades about how to break it up.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there is essentially a collection of interconnected, interwoven love poems.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there are 23, maybe there are a few more, maybe there are a few less.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a rigid structure.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like a symphony.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's lots of little themes that weave together and build and build and build, and there's motifs that appear throughout.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: We can see that there are several different voices.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: There are three speaking voices.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's beloved, which is the female character, lover, who is the male character, and then friends, who are the chorus, you know, the kind of the people around the couple.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what's happening narratively in terms of a story is it's a tale of two lovers, they're engaged, they are really into each other physically.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: They can't wait to be together physically.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: They keep coming together at key moments and then breaking apart and and losing one another.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: The cycle in the story is of searching and finding and breaking apart and searching again.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's three times when they come together and you know they he says, Oh, he comes into my bedroom and we get and then it stops, and I awoke and he was gone.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I need to find him again.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting that this kind of narrative tension keeps building and building to a point and then dissipating, and they've got to find each other again.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end, there's no firm conclusion to that storyline.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_01: It just ends with another one of them saying, And come away with me to the mountains.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do this again, let's keep running away together.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting, maybe a little bit like love in a sense, is that there isn't like a firm narrative ending.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit like real life in some ways.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: There is debate about like exactly what's happening from a story perspective.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Is it just two people who love each other?
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Is is there a woman and is it Solomon or is is Solomon the person she's engaged to, but there's this shepherd in the hills who she's really in love with, and he's the true love, and Solomon is kind of another sort of third-wheel type.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's debate there.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, we can't really nail down in this moment what's happening.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: I it feels to me a little bit like Solomon's more of a secondary character, and that there's sort of an exclusive love narrative between the two of them.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: But but people will debate that, and we could maybe talk about it a bit later on.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: The key poetic conclusion, obviously, it is a poem, is right at the end, verse um six, seven in chapter eight.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: You may have heard that read out at a wedding.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's a banner body's have got with it on.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had it at my wedding.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's the whole love, you know, is like a fire, but place me like a seal over your heart, love is all consuming, it's you know, it's that incredible sort of poetic conclusion.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's the kind of the summation of the message, I suppose, is that love is amazing, uh, but it's also it's powerful, it's dangerous, it's all consuming, it needs to be treated with respect.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the kind of a conclusion there.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then and throughout we just have layers.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's layers and layers and layers.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it is at its on its surface, it's kind of a sort of semi-erotic love poetry.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: There are layers beneath that.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is it allegory?
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it God?
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it Jesus and the church?
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is it something else?
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's all this kind of fruit, and there's trees and animals, and it is really suggestive.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like we won't go into it, but if you read the Song of Songs and you pick out an image and you feel like, oh if I was reading this in a certain way, it could mean that.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: It probably does mean that.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of climbing of trees and plucking fruit and entering secret gardens and overflowing fountains and tasting stuff, and that's what it's talking about.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we're all grown-ups here, like we can imagine what's going on.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: That is actually what it's saying, and that is actually in our Bible, right next to literally the book next to everything's meaningless.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't it all awful?
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting, isn't it?
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's something to be reflected on there, and that's a bit like what we're trying to do in this sort of series on wisdom literature, is try and read it all together, is look at all of these different books which are talking about how to do life well, next to one another, and reading them in the light of the others.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we're going to try and do quickly.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is just a quote from um from a scholar that I read as I was preparing.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially, this is the way to understand the book as much as best as we can, is to read it in light of the rest of the Old Testament.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: The song, the Song of Songs, most prominent literary feature is the extraordinarily high instance of words and phrases that echo other parts of scripture, and yet in their creative reuse here, become imbued with fresh, unexpected meaning.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's what we talk about all the time at Bible school is read the Bible in light of the Bible.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: None of these books are isolated on their own.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're all in a context which is the rest of the Bible, the books that were written around them, written, uh, and what we have, the benefit of hindsight, is looking for Jesus, the shadow of Jesus in those books as well.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the point of this book?
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_01: As I said, there is a lot of different interpretation here.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've got five for you that are sort of different different ways of looking at the book with some different nuance.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to tell you which one is right, I'm just gonna give you an overview of each one.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can you can read in how detailed I go into each one, where my my opinions lie, we can we can discuss it, you can ask questions.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_01: But there isn't a consensus in my book.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: People about how to interpret this book.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: But there are some things that we can pull out, I think.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one is that this book is really it's purely allegory.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's something you touched on.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: There is nothing going on here except this is about God and Israel.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the sort of the traditional sort of Hebrew, um Israelite view from sort of the Middle Temple period, which is kind of after the Bible's written, but before Jesus came.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's lots of writings, we have lots of people's commentaries on stuff, teaching from rabbis.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: We can read that and we can see this is this is kind of how that period of time they read this book.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about God and Israel.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't see it as love poetry.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: It was in the Bible, which means there must be something deeper than just isn't this guy hot?
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to get it on.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that it can't just be that.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_01: The two main characters are uh Israel is the woman, God is the man, and the woman, Israel is pursuing God, is looking for him, is searching for him.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's you know, that's basically it.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a it's a love story, but it's between God and Israel.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um they went as they went through, as they tried to study it, there were lots of attempts to kind of to literally map events from Israel's history onto things from the book.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, at verse one, uh sorry, chapter one, verse two, um, the woman says, you know, aren't the kisses of his mouth amazing?
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a suggestion, well, those kisses, those must be the law.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_01: So God's kissed Israel 612 times because he's given us 612 commandments.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the kind of the level that they went to, and it was literally, this is pure symbol, and it's it's about our history.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's going on here.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's the key kind of the reading from Jewish history.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: The updated version is Jesus and the church, which which makes sense to us as Christians.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, they were talking about God and Israel, but we know, with with the benefit of hindsight, we can see that actually, well, we can update those characters to the true expression of the church, you know, that the new Israel, the expanded vision of God for everyone.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this is kind of based on um particularly Ephesians 5, uh, 25 to 33.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's um a passage you may know which is talking about the church as the bride of Christ.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes sense to read this, you know, talk of weddings and and sort of union between man and woman in the Old Testament, uh, and to read Jesus into that.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, this is the shadow of Jesus in the Old Testament.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a vision of the messianic love for the church.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the author's necessary intent at the time because he didn't know who Jesus was, but the Spirit has guided him to write this allegory, and actually it's about Jesus and the expression of true relationship that comes with Jesus and the church.
• 1:08:43
  SPEAKER_01: Could it just be love poetry?
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, you know, just it is what it says on the tent.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a man and a woman, they love each other very much, and what happens next happens next.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's eight chapters of getting really excited about you know being with the person that they love.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this was um not a view that was held in antiquity, but actually, recent archaeological discovery, you know, in the last kind of century or so, we've we've found a lot of ancient sites, we've found lots more ancient texts, we've found lots of cities, and and some of the writing of ancient cultures has been preserved.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: So Babylon, Samaria, you know, Akkadia, all these kind of ancient cultures which were around Israel at the time.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you've been to any of our sessions before, when we talk about Genesis or you know other ancient culture stuff, you know, they influence one another.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_01: And Israel was influenced by the cultures that were around it.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_01: And actually they found quite a lot of love poetry.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's other poems from those other cultures which sound a bit like this one.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it was just love poetry.
• 1:09:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that is actually a genre that they wrote in, that they understood and they appreciated.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it was just a kind of an Israelite version of that.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's purely physical, you know, it's it's celebrating the love that God has given us in in man and woman, and maybe that's it.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, there are a lot of modern scholars who would take that view.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of based on the most up-to-date archaeology, the most kind of present discoveries of the physical resources that we have from the time period.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I wonder if a lot of these views are a little bit more about bringing something to the text and interpreting it through that way, rather than reading the text in the context that surrounds it.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's um a word um intertextuality, which is used to describe what I mentioned before.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Reading the Bible in light of the Bible.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_08: What does that mean?
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's reading the Bible in light of the Bible.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you think of text, interbetween texts, between texting, if you want.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's the way that we look at this little piece of the Bible, but instead of just pulling it out and looking at it on its own, oh it's an it's a love poem, we put it back in its place and we read it alongside the rest of the Bible.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_01: We read it as a whole, all being informed by the other things that we see.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And there are maybe some things that can emerge when we do that.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, one view of it is that the the sort of the deeper meaning in this book is about humanity's quest for wisdom.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now, on the surface, of course, there's there's a love poem there, but there's maybe something a bit deeper going on.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, in this reading, the woman is wisdom with a capital W, divine wisdom, and the male character is humanity.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, this, you know, could be a bit of a left turn, but let's have a look into it a little bit more.
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, obviously, Solomon is associated with this book very distinctly, right from the first verse.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Song of Solomon.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_01: When we read Solomon, when we if we're trying to understand the Bible, we we get into the heads of the people who wrote it.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: They had the whole Bible downloaded, they've got it all unlocked, they they know off by heart, they're deeply embedded in it.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a bit like hyperlinking.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've used this term before when talking at Bible school.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I say Solomon, and suddenly there's all of these things behind the word Solomon that just pop into your head if you are someone from that culture.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you know, I could say that to you, and you'd probably think Solomon, oh, Proverbs.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's quite an easy one, it's quite simple.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_01: We say Solomon, we think Proverbs, we think wisdom.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's a big hyperlink across to his storyline, his narrative, wisdom, and the pursuit of it.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And when we read all the books in the wisdom literature alongside one another, as we're trying to do today, we can see that there's some connections there, possibly.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, for example, there is very similar imagery that's quite physical and sexualized as well, that is also applied to the characters of Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly in Proverbs 1 to 9.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you were here last week, you may have heard me talk about that.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically the introduction to Proverbs, which is kind of speeches from a father to a son, but also from these personified characters, wisdom and folly, they're the two opposites.
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Wisdom is a female, as a female character, it's God's wisdom as a person and her counterpart, folly, who's who's depicted as an adulterous woman or a prostitute.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And wisdom calls out asking to be pursued.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's a verse in uh read out, in Proverbs 7, verse 2, which says, uh, keep your commands, uh, keep my commands, bind them over your fingers, keep them on your heart, call wisdom your sister, she'll keep you from the adulteress.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if you remember what I talked about before, that famous conclusion to Song of Songs is bind me over your heart, you know, keep me close.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's some similarity there.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's physical imagery, you know.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_01: She calls out, she's pursue me, look for me, find me.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's very similar to what the female character in Song of Songs says.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: The flip side, Folly, the the adulterous woman, she is a seductive temptress.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_01: She has uh chapter 5, verse 3, she has lips which drip honey.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Her speech is smoother than oil.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's almost quoted for word for word about the bride character in Song of Songs.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh bride, your lips drip with honey.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_01: The imagery is exactly the same.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a commonality there, what's going on?
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting that we also have both the negative and the positive female characters from Proverbs referenced, as opposed to just being a single female character in Song of Songs.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's something there about redeeming the negative female imagery in Proverbs.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: There are parallels to Proverbs in a language in general used for the beloved, the female character, in parallel with this Lady Wisdom character in Proverbs.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_01: She searches for her lover.
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_01: She looks constantly, she goes to the hills, she searches through the squares, she goes into the sound, she says, Daughters of Jerusalem, have you seen my beloved?
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen the one my heart loves?
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_01: She searches and she goes all over the place.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you read Proverbs, for example, in uh that chapter 7, or in uh sorry, chapter 8, or you know, any of the speeches of uh Lady Wisdom in Proverbs, she searches.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I stand at the crossroads, I call out, come to me, search for me.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_01: The language is very similar if you read them side by side, which is interesting.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_01: That the relational language used for both Lady Wisdom and the beloved, the female character, is very similar as well.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're both called sister, which feels a little bit funny in a in a sort of a physical love poem.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a way that Hebrew um language used to talk about a wife is my sister or my brother.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just another way of saying that.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't work in English.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't try and use it, but that's what it means for them.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Proverbs 7, verse 4.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Call wisdom your sister.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Proverb uh Song of Songs, chapter 5, verse 1.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I have come into my garden, my sister, my bride.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_01: What was that?
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_08: I just say myself.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, sorry, I thought you said my mistake.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sister.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're both referred to the same way.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_01: The wisdom character, which is searched for by the wise man in Proverbs, and the bride character in Song of Songs.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_01: They are both a fruiting tree.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Wisdom is a fruit tree.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_01: She's a tree of life.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a kind of a reference back to the Garden of Eden.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_01: A tree of life to all that take hold of her.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then, almost word for word, in Song of Songs, the man says about the woman, your stature is like the palm, a fruit tree.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_01: I will climb the tree, I will take hold of its fruit.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is just a few examples.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: There are dozens of examples like this.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something there that maybe there's something a deeper level to Song of Songs.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's something in that.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's in the tradition of Solomon, it's it's about how to do things well.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is it on a deeper level about the pursuit of wisdom and what we can gain from it?
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_01: The final um the final sort of interpretation I've got for you here is maybe it's not just about one relationship.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_01: The other kind of versions of of this are what it's just about God in Israel.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about Jesus and the church, it's exclusively physical love poetry.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's all of them.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's a whole load of different layers going on here.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just about one or the other, it's about redeeming all relationships.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Always, for all time.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_01: There is a lot here, um, and it will take a long time to go into it in full depth, but essentially there's a scholar called Ellen Davis, who I quoted from earlier, who sort of brought this idea forwards.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially, Song of Songs, um, from her perspective, is a completely redemptive vision of all relationships, and it's all about the imagery and the hyperlinks that the text gives to all over the rest of the Bible.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_01: There are parallels between, particularly this book and the Garden of Eden, and the kind of garden imagery that we see there, and through that to the temple as well.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, quick, you know, quick explainer.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there is a lot of natural imagery in the Song of Songs.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's a garden, there's pomegranates, there are deer leaping, there's trees, there's rivers, there's it feels like they're in a lovely garden space when you read it.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when you read the Old Testament, garden imagery means creation, means before the fall, how it was originally.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_01: A man and a woman in a garden together.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's the vision.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of what that's supposed to activate in your brain when you see that.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And secondly, the other image that you're supposed to link to is the temple.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Both the tabernacle and then the temple in Jerusalem that was built as a second space to meet with God.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, in the beginning, man and woman, humanity, together with God in the garden.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_01: That was how it was supposed to be.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: It got broken, it got messed up, but then God gives Israel, his people, the chance to build another place to meet with him, and that's the temple.
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And when you read the construction of the temple, you read about the construction of the tabernacle before it, it's just stuffed with natural imagery.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely like it's like a recreated garden space.
• 1:19:33
  SPEAKER_01: There are carvings of fruit, there's carvings of trees, there's carvings of animals, there is pictures, there's water everywhere.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's supposed to recreate the Garden of Eden in the temple, and it's supposed to be a new space to meet with God.
• 1:19:45
  SPEAKER_01: So when we read all of this natural imagery stuffed into this eight chapters, that's what's supposed to activate in our minds.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is a space to meet with God, to recreate relationship as it was supposed to be.
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there are really, really clear parallels with Solomon as well, because Solomon built the temple.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you read one king, Solomon's the one who's building it.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_01: He's the one who is creating that space again.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of parallels with the building of the temple as well.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Even just the end of that verse that I read.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Your beams, the beams of our house are cedars, our rafters are firs.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the construction manual for the inside of the temple.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's just cedar.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's no stone anywhere.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's all wooden, it's natural, it's like a forest.
• 1:20:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it's going for.
• 1:20:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the imagery in Song of Songs is harking back to a time when there was a closeness with God, a fruitfulness of relationship that maybe there wasn't when this was written, but it's projecting forward to a time when that will be restored.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's about healing each of these different relationships: man and woman, God and humanity, and also humanity and creation.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_01: So there's lots of different layers.
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_01: We'll dig into them just quickly.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm aware that we've got a bit of time that we want to have at the end for questions.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: But first of all, man and woman is clearly male-female physicality in this relationship.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's clearly that's what's there on the surface.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_01: We can see that really obviously when we read it.
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_01: But when we think about the Garden of Eden, which is what this is is telling us to think back to, what happens?
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_01: The relationship's broken.
• 1:21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Man and woman, they turn on one another, there's the fall, God curses humanity, that's that's the term used, and it goes wrong.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And what do we see?
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_01: We see the relationship between man and woman is imbalanced.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's this phrase in in Genesis 3.16, when God says to the woman, Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.
• 1:21:50
  SPEAKER_01: There's an imbalance there, isn't there?
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_01: That that word desire is really interesting because it's very rare and it's only used three times in the whole Old Testament.
• 1:22:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's used there, it's used literally the next chapter when God says to Cain, Your sin desires you, like covets you, wants you.
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's used in chapter 7, verse 10.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if someone might be able to read that out, just because I think it's quite fun.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Is anyone got chapter 7, verse 10 in front of them that they could read out?
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, over here.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Chapter 7, verse 10.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So just to remind you, Genesis 3.16, your desire will be for your husband, he will rule over you.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then chapter 7, verse 10.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_03: I belong to my beloved, and his desire is for me.
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_01: His desire is for me.
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_01: The woman says, He desires me, and I belong to him.
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a complete reversal of that Genesis curse that is about broken relationship between man and woman.
• 1:22:53
  SPEAKER_01: But there's no imbalance anymore.
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the man desires the woman and the woman leads him on or the woman rules over him.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm his and he desires me.
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_01: When there's something that's that specific, a term that's that, you know, focused, that only appears in one other context, which is negative, and here it's used as an expression of desire and love, we have to take notice of that.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_01: There's something really profound there.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said right at the start, that quote from the scholar Ellen Davis, this book comes alive when you realize how much of it is being pulled from elsewhere in the Old Testament.
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really profound.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that's saying something about relationship, and we need to take note of that.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's portraying a restored relationship, not an imbalanced one.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's restoration of male and female relationship here, God and humanity.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_01: We've mentioned, you know, all these references to the garden, to the to the temple through that, to the construction of the temple in Jerusalem, to Solomon, to the Garden of Eden, to creation.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_01: There is clearly a lot of allegory here as well.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_01: There is clearly a lot going on that seems to be about mutual longing and yearning.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_01: There is something there on a deeper level.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_01: There is reciprocal love between these two characters, as there will be between God and his people, in the new creation.
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_01: There is also a lot of echoes of other prophets from the time, Jeremiah, Hosea, there's all these passages where God says, I long for you, talking about his people.
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I will love them like my children again.
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_01: I will, you know, my heart will beat for them again.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_01: He says about Israel, their hearts will beat for me, I'll write my name on their hearts.
• 1:24:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can imagine the kind of imagery we're talking about.
• 1:24:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's a huge amount of examples of that.
• 1:24:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those are just two, but there's something there.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's another level of meaning that we can look at.
• 1:24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's also something about humanity and creation as well.
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is maybe a little less obvious, but but it's there.
• 1:24:57
  SPEAKER_01: For example, in chapter 2, verse 11 to 13.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_01: For behold, the winter is passed, the rain is over and gone, the flowers have already appeared, the time has arrived for pruning the vines, the voice of the turtle dove has already been heard.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_01: The land itself comes alive around the love of these two characters.
• 1:25:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's a blossoming and a fruitfulness that maybe wasn't there before.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, for us, that again, what's going on there?
• 1:25:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's just two people who love each other.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_01: But in the culture of the time, the Israelites believed that the well-being of creation, the physical world around them, was directly linked to their covenant faithfulness.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So when they messed up, the world got messed up, literally.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_01: For example, you know, after the exile, they they talk about Israel as being desolate and barren and almost like a wasteland.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing there.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's unprofitable, it's unfruitful.
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_01: But they're really talking about how they've impacted creation.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we can see here, with this restored relationship, the world around them comes to life again.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we've only got you know 10 15 minutes left.
• 1:26:02
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if you maybe speak to the person next to you for a minute.
• 1:26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Which of those five different interpretations resonates with you?
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_01: What strikes you if there wasn't a thing, and why?
• 1:26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then we'll have a bit of time to feedback in a minute.