Latest / The You Project / #2148 Neurodiversity - Dr Anastasiya Suetin

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#2148 Neurodiversity - Dr Anastasiya Suetin · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: God, are you bloody champions? It's me.
0:02
Speaker 2: It's Craig Anthony Harper from the You Project. It's Friday.
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Speaker 2: We're sliding towards home plates. The weekend is coming up.
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Speaker 2: I'm sure you're all excited or you're probably listening to
0:12
Speaker 2: this next week. You're probably not listening to it right now.
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Speaker 2: Good thinking, Harps. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing in
0:20
Speaker 2: Australia outside of Australia, we hope you're well today. I'm
0:24
Speaker 2: excited because I'm talking a brand NEWI a brand newie,
0:28
Speaker 2: somebody that I met recently. We kind of intersected with
0:31
Speaker 2: work and a few other people. She's a straight up
0:33
Speaker 2: smarty pants, but she'll feel more anxious now that I've
0:36
Speaker 2: said she's a smarty pants, but I'm not going to
0:38
Speaker 2: recant it. That's just how I roll. Her name is
0:41
Speaker 2: doctor Anastasia Sutan. Did I get the surname right?
0:45
Speaker 1: Anna? You did? Ah?
0:48
Speaker 2: Go me? And we've been kind of chatting a bit
0:52
Speaker 2: and doing a few things, and I really enjoy talking
0:56
Speaker 2: to people who have which is nearly everyone knowledge that
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Speaker 2: I don't have, understanding that I don't have, and anything.
1:03
Speaker 1: As you'll know, I'm a little bit.
1:04
Speaker 2: Obsessed with the mind and human performance and behavior and
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Speaker 2: self management and self regulation and self awareness, all the
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Speaker 2: self stuff. How do I optimize me in the middle
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Speaker 2: of a suboptimal environment or situation? How do I navigate
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Speaker 2: and negotiate and optimize all the stuff that I have
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Speaker 2: to deal with, you know, strengths, weaknesses, limitations, And so
1:28
Speaker 2: that's what we're going to do. So after that very
1:30
Speaker 2: long winded oh you know what I'm going to do.
1:33
Speaker 2: Before I stop the long windedness, I'm going to read
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Speaker 2: this a little bit.
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Speaker 1: Doctor.
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Speaker 2: Let's just go with We're going with Doctor Anna today
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Speaker 2: is a clinical psychologist with more than fifty I don't
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Speaker 2: know how old this bio is, so you can.
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Speaker 1: Correct me in a minute. And she's thinking, oh God,
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Speaker 1: where did you get that? From?
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Speaker 2: More than fifteen years experience working with kids, adolescents and
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Speaker 2: adults across clinical, educational and private practice setting. She holds
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Speaker 2: Masters and a PhD. Like I said, Smarty Panting clinical
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Speaker 2: Psychology and Adolescent Specialization from the UNI of Melbourne is
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Speaker 2: a registered and endorsed clinical psychologist with Psychology Board of
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Speaker 2: Australia and a whole bunch of other stuff, like a
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Speaker 2: whole bunch of other stuff, so I won't keep you
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Speaker 2: waiting any longer.
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Speaker 1: Hi Anna, how are you?
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Speaker 3: Hello? Craig? Hello everyone, lovely to be here. I'm really
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Speaker 3: excited to be here.
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Speaker 2: In fact, so this is your podcast debut, right mm absolutely?
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Speaker 1: Now let me I need you to be honest.
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Speaker 2: Is the psychologist who helps people stay calm?
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Speaker 1: Is she calm for me?
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Speaker 3: I was using all the tools eightish my clients, the breathing,
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Speaker 3: their mindfulness. But yes, I'm still feeling a bit nervous,
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Speaker 3: to be honest.
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Speaker 1: Well, you know they do work. That's okay. That doesn't
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Speaker 1: mean you a week or broken. That means you normal?
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Speaker 1: How far? I don't know, do you.
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Speaker 2: I have this experience often where like I know, I
3:00
Speaker 2: know I'm not a fraud, but I feel like a fraud.
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Speaker 2: Or I know that I'm good enough just intellectually because
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Speaker 2: I have experience and evidence and data that says, Craig,
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Speaker 2: You're not a complete idiot, But nonetheless I have that
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Speaker 2: feeling of inadequacy or not good enough itis, and that
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Speaker 2: can overwhelm like that feeling can overwhelm all the stuff
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Speaker 2: you actually know.
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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, almost the imposed to syndrome in a way
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Speaker 3: which I still sometimes get even that I've been practicing
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Speaker 3: for yes, over fifteen years during this kind of work.
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Speaker 3: But yes, I guess that kind of performance anxiety be
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Speaker 3: a bit of a perfection of myself. That's something that
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Speaker 3: I can certainly feel.
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Speaker 1: This might sound sexist.
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Speaker 2: I don't mean it to be, but my observation anyway
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Speaker 2: is that more women seem to be perfectionists rather than
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Speaker 2: I'm not saying I think it's obviously both genders, but
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Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe I've just noticed that it seems
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Speaker 2: like I know more ladies that are perfectionists than men.
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Speaker 2: Men are a little bit like, ah, it'll be right,
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Speaker 2: is that true?
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Speaker 3: Look, when it comes to perfectionism in general, I'd say
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Speaker 3: probably both men and women have that equally. But when
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Speaker 3: it comes to the social perfectionism, I'd agree with you.
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Speaker 3: I think that women can be more socially perfectionistic.
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Speaker 1: And what is that? How does that express?
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Speaker 3: Like?
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Speaker 2: What does that mean? Socially perfect perfection? Is that the
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Speaker 2: way I want to really control how I think people
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Speaker 2: see me, or my behavior or the way I dress
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Speaker 2: or present to the world.
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Speaker 1: Is it that stuff for work?
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Speaker 3: Stuff for yeah, very much, all of those. So it's
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Speaker 3: like setting really high standards for yourself and then internalizing
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Speaker 3: that fear, having that anxiety and stress about well, how
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Speaker 3: are you going to perform? How are people going to
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Speaker 3: perceive you? And that's kind of grows very much along
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Speaker 3: with what you've been working on with your thesis, isn't
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Speaker 3: it that needs a perception?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm I mean, I've been fascinated with and
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Speaker 2: I ain't about me, so we'll get back to you.
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Speaker 2: But I've always just been fascinated even when I was
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Speaker 2: a kid. I have this vivid recollection of going to
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Speaker 2: my mum's uncle, right, So that's how young I was.
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Speaker 2: It was my mum's uncle's fiftieth so my mum was
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Speaker 2: like thirty and he was fifty and I was six
5:29
Speaker 2: because mum had me when she was twenty four. So
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Speaker 2: I'm six years old and I'm at this event with
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Speaker 2: all these old people, like thirty year old like dinosaur
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Speaker 2: human beings, right, And I was the only child at
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Speaker 2: this party of about sixty or seventy people, And I
5:45
Speaker 2: remember being I was a bit of a weird kid, right,
5:48
Speaker 2: because I was an only kid. I was an only child,
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Speaker 2: so I spent a disproportionate amount of time around grown
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Speaker 2: ups and listening to, for better or worse, adult conversations,
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Speaker 2: and I think I was like, if I don't think
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Speaker 2: I'm particularly gifted, but if I do have any natural
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Speaker 2: ability or gift, it might be with communication, right and
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Speaker 2: understanding how people think ergo my research. But I remember
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Speaker 2: listening to old people in inverted Comma's talk and thinking
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Speaker 2: how boring they were and how much they could just
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Speaker 2: talk about nothing in particular. And I became I didn't
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Speaker 2: know what it was, but almost like this social dance
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Speaker 2: of how are you good in you?
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Speaker 1: And how did this and how did that?
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Speaker 2: Oh great, and just all this bullshit like super visual,
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Speaker 2: like nobody was actually talking about much that interested me anyway.
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Speaker 2: So I think that you know, that's long standing for
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Speaker 2: me is being fascinated with other people's experience of life.
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Speaker 2: You know that whole thing you and I are in
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Speaker 2: the same conversation. Now we're not in the same experience,
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Speaker 2: you know, same day, same podcast, same time, same you
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Speaker 2: know what looks from the outside the same experience, but
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Speaker 2: is totally not. And then becoming aware that, oh, like
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Speaker 2: with you, like what's making me nervous or anxious or
7:17
Speaker 2: this or that is not the event or the situation
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Speaker 2: or Craig, but rather how I process it all, like
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Speaker 2: just that recognition of ah, when you think, oh that
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Speaker 2: that makes me anxious. Oh no, no, no, you're thinking
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Speaker 2: about that makes you anxious? Anxious or this is a
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Speaker 2: stressful environment. And then you go, well, how come that
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Speaker 2: lady over there is not stressed or that guy is
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Speaker 2: not stressed. Then you start to understand the way that
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Speaker 2: we self create knowingly or not every day.
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Speaker 3: Exactly, and that's where the whole notion of that met
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Speaker 3: recognition comes into play. Have you seen that interview with
7:57
Speaker 3: Alien Goo feel skier sorry freestyle skier who won the
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Speaker 3: gold medal for I think for China, the American Chinese. Yeah, well,
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Speaker 3: and she was giving that interviews talking about how metacognition
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Speaker 3: helps her in working with her mind and improving her
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Speaker 3: performance and making helping her grow not just as a
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Speaker 3: skier but as a human being, being like the best
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Speaker 3: version of herself. Is really fascinating to hear her speak
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Speaker 3: about that and like being like a scientist exploring her brain,
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Speaker 3: exploring how it reacts to different things.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, like trying to understand yourself, which is literally why
8:42
Speaker 2: this show is called The Youth project, because I think
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Speaker 2: the biggest project I have in my life and will
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Speaker 2: ever have as me, and not from a selfish point
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Speaker 2: of view, but trying to understand me, trying to understand
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Speaker 2: me for others, trying to understand why do I react
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Speaker 2: that way, why do I operate an ego? Why am
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Speaker 2: I insecure when I've done this thirty times? Or why
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Speaker 2: do I talk this way or that way? Why are
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Speaker 2: my behaviors the way they are? And and you know,
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Speaker 2: without doing without being too self indulgent or going down
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Speaker 2: the Craig rabbit hole too much, and then you just
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Speaker 2: become a weirdo, but just understanding how I operate in
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Speaker 2: the world me and then how I operate.
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Speaker 1: For others, like what is my Like what's the Craig impact?
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Speaker 2: And that's not an egotistical question, that's a curious one,
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Speaker 2: because you know, sometimes I can talk to twenty people
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Speaker 2: and I have a negative impact on one and a
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Speaker 2: positive impact on another, and You're like, all the outcome
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Speaker 2: is negative or positive, and you go, this is so
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Speaker 2: crazy because even then it's not as much about what
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Speaker 2: I'm saying. Although I'm a stimulus, but I am not
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Speaker 2: the determinant of their experience.
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Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely? It's interesting. In my practice, I'm seeing a lot
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Speaker 3: of people who actually, well, I actually my area of
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Speaker 3: passion is you're a divergence, and I'm seeing lots of
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Speaker 3: people who are You're a divergent. And what I find,
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Speaker 3: especially with females, is that they do a lot of
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Speaker 3: almost over analyzing. They are over focused on how others
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Speaker 3: perceive them, and they constantly scan the environment, They constantly
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Speaker 3: scan the other person there with or other people there with,
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Speaker 3: and that's where the whole masking comes in. So it's
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Speaker 3: not just trying to understand how they're perceived by others,
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Speaker 3: but also trying to adjus to make sure that they're
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Speaker 3: liked by that person. And that's where the whole kind
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Speaker 3: of question is, well, is it always a good thing
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Speaker 3: to be very good at that meta perception?
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Speaker 1: That is a great question. So here's my answer.
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Speaker 2: I think what you were talking about there is largely
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Speaker 2: driven by fear. Please like me, please accept me, Please
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Speaker 2: think I'm good enough.
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Speaker 1: Pretty enough, smart enough, like.
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Speaker 2: It's a fear based driver, whereas what I want to
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Speaker 2: encourage is a curiosity based driver.
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Speaker 1: So that like, for example, if.
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Speaker 2: People think I'm handsome, or ugly smart or dumb whatever,
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Speaker 2: I honestly don't care.
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Speaker 1: It's like, well, that is what it is. Do I
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Speaker 1: want people to like me? Yes? I do?
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Speaker 2: Why because I'm human and I'm still a bit insecure.
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Speaker 2: But if they don't like me, also, that's okay.
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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If you understand.
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Speaker 2: More accurately or with greater insight, you understand the Anna
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Speaker 2: experience for Craig, you know what it's. You've got an
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Speaker 2: insight into how I experience you. Then now you have
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Speaker 2: a conversational and sociological advance because you know something that
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Speaker 2: the average person doesn't know. So too, Like you know,
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Speaker 2: if you're working with somebody right now who's say, you know,
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Speaker 2: on the spectrum in some way versus somebody who isn't,
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Speaker 2: you will automatically adjust your conversational style perhaps and the content.
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Speaker 1: Of your words.
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Speaker 2: And you know, but you do that automatically because you
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Speaker 2: know this will be more appropriate with this person and
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Speaker 2: this will be more But that's something that we do
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Speaker 2: on autopilot. But then when you kind of fine tune
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Speaker 2: that into you know, like you think about when you'll
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Speaker 2: say talk.
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Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever do. I'm sure you do.
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Speaker 1: But when you talk to a group of twenty thirty,
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Speaker 1: forty fifty, now you've got now you've got fifty people
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Speaker 1: in the room processing you and experiencing you.
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Speaker 2: In their own unique way. And that because the only
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Speaker 2: person who thinks like you in the room as you, yep,
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Speaker 2: and so to be able.
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Speaker 4: To factor that in real time, you know, that's that's
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Speaker 4: one of the does does that come into play when
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Speaker 4: you're working with people who are neuro divergent trying to
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Speaker 4: understand there they're in the moment reality?
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Speaker 3: I would say so yes, And look, something I wanted
13:21
Speaker 3: to say is, well, we've had we've known each other
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Speaker 3: for a pretty short period of time, but there was
13:30
Speaker 3: something I actually wanted to share with you, and in fact,
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Speaker 3: something I wanted to share publicly for the first time
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Speaker 3: since we're speaking about neuridivergence. Is that actually I've recently
13:42
Speaker 3: learned about being uridivergent myself. So that's something.
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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm quite thank you, thank you so much.
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Speaker 2: Like we had a quick chat before this and and
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Speaker 2: I told me that, and I went, like, we've met
13:56
Speaker 2: a few times, not a lot, but yeah, I went, yeah,
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Speaker 2: well I'm not and not in a good or bad way,
14:02
Speaker 2: just as in a well yeah, it's kind of like
14:06
Speaker 2: me going, I don't have heaps of hair on my head.
14:08
Speaker 2: You go, well, of course you don't. I can see it.
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Speaker 2: For me, it was a little bit like that. But
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Speaker 2: how is that for you now? So you've got this
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Speaker 2: new knowledge or awareness, how is that for you?
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Speaker 3: Yes, look, it's empowering, I'd say, it's also almost liberating.
14:29
Speaker 3: So I've I've been recently diagnosed with AUDHD, so that's
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Speaker 3: both autism and ADHD. I felt pretty much the same
14:39
Speaker 3: way as you did when I share the news with you,
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Speaker 3: in the fact that that's a surprising. In fact, when
14:44
Speaker 3: I went for the assessment, I knew exactly that this
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Speaker 3: is what I am. For a long time I have
14:51
Speaker 3: been contemplating with I am your divergent, but somehow I
14:56
Speaker 3: didn't feel like I could fit into one of those
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Speaker 3: boxes of being an ADHDR or being autistic in that
15:04
Speaker 3: kind of perfect way. But then when I started thinking
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Speaker 3: about the actual AUDIHD profile, I thought, well, that's me,
15:14
Speaker 3: that's exactly me. And interestingly, up until twenty and thirteen,
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Speaker 3: so based on the previous DSM, the M four, we
15:22
Speaker 3: couldn't actually diagnose someone with both of those conditions and
15:26
Speaker 3: that's fascinating. So just thinking about it, how our understanding
15:33
Speaker 3: of our awareness of neurodivergence has been evolving really quickly
15:40
Speaker 3: and really shifting the way we think about neurodivergence. So
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Speaker 3: a lot of people, I would imagine I'm the same
15:48
Speaker 3: kind of prior as me, feeling that they don't quite
15:52
Speaker 3: fit into either of those. But the AUDIOHD profile really
15:58
Speaker 3: kind of resonated with me. I could really feel that
16:02
Speaker 3: this explains so much about me and gives me so
16:04
Speaker 3: much insight into why I do certain things the way
16:08
Speaker 3: I do, why certain things are easier, why certain things
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Speaker 3: are harder. So I feel like it's been a really
16:14
Speaker 3: kind of helpful experience for me to gain that self awareness,
16:21
Speaker 3: gain that level.
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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for sharing. That is a gift and
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Speaker 2: well done you. Now is the term that you're using,
16:32
Speaker 2: or DHD, so it's an amalgamation of autism and ADHD
16:38
Speaker 2: so or DHD yeh DHD.
16:42
Speaker 1: So what are the things that for you.
16:44
Speaker 2: Are easier and harder because of that or in relation
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Speaker 2: to that, I'll.
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Speaker 3: Start with the easier ones. In fact, there are lots
16:55
Speaker 3: of things I love about the way my brain works.
16:59
Speaker 3: I am a very curious person. I get really super
17:02
Speaker 3: passionate about things. I mean to really excited. I have
17:06
Speaker 3: lots of things I love doing, and I when I'm
17:11
Speaker 3: feeling good, I feel like I have end loose energy
17:14
Speaker 3: to do things. So you probably know that I have
17:17
Speaker 3: five kids and I love that kind of busy, full on,
17:25
Speaker 3: exciting lifestyle.
17:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
17:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, But can I ask you another weird question?
17:33
Speaker 3: Right?
17:33
Speaker 1: Go ahead, because I'm just I'm curious.
17:36
Speaker 2: So you and I met at a meeting, at a
17:40
Speaker 2: business meeting.
17:40
Speaker 1: We'll just leave it at that, right, And how do
17:46
Speaker 1: I say this?
17:47
Speaker 2: It's like I feel like I think you and I
17:49
Speaker 2: get on well, right, Like I said, we've spoken four
17:51
Speaker 2: or five times, but I felt like you and I
17:56
Speaker 2: couldn't be more different, Like there are things that we
17:59
Speaker 2: have in kind, but at one end of the scale,
18:02
Speaker 2: whatever scale we're talking about, is jumbo fatty Harps Craig Harper.
18:07
Speaker 2: And at the other end of the scale, as you
18:09
Speaker 2: not a good or a bad end? Just did you
18:12
Speaker 2: like you must have had that awareness when you met me,
18:15
Speaker 2: because I had that awareness, not in a like this
18:18
Speaker 2: isn't a problem, this is I'm glad you're not like me.
18:21
Speaker 1: You're glad. You're glad, I'm not. You know, you're not
18:25
Speaker 1: like me, or vice versa. Right, what was that like?
18:30
Speaker 3: I'm used to sharing space with people who are very,
18:34
Speaker 3: very different, and I love that. I love being around
18:40
Speaker 3: people who are who see things differently to me, who
18:44
Speaker 3: perceive things differently to me. I find that very fascinating.
18:49
Speaker 3: So my kind of curious part of the brain is
18:52
Speaker 3: really excited about being able to interact with people who
18:57
Speaker 3: are different, and I think that as a psychologist, I'm
19:00
Speaker 3: also doing that quite a bit, kind of constantly stepping
19:03
Speaker 3: into other people's shoes some as you previously said, trying
19:07
Speaker 3: to figure out how they perceive me, trying to figure
19:11
Speaker 3: out what this experience is like for them. I love that.
19:17
Speaker 1: How do we here's a tricky a question. Okay, so
19:20
Speaker 1: how do we?
19:21
Speaker 2: You know, I've got biases, I've got certain things that
19:24
Speaker 2: I think and believe and hold to be true. I'm
19:27
Speaker 2: also very aware that I've been wrong a lot, so
19:29
Speaker 2: I don't hold these ideas too tightly. But you know,
19:33
Speaker 2: when you go and work with someone or I don't know,
19:38
Speaker 2: there are specific tools that you use, but just in general,
19:42
Speaker 2: you're always looking through the anna window. I'm always looking
19:45
Speaker 2: through the Craig window, and sometimes that helps and sometimes
19:50
Speaker 2: it doesn't help.
19:51
Speaker 1: Ye, are you ever awareness? Are you ever aware?
19:55
Speaker 2: Or I don't know, do you ever think about is
19:58
Speaker 2: there in this moment in this like even with a podcast,
20:01
Speaker 2: this is your first time, this is my millionth time,
20:04
Speaker 2: and so by the way, you're doing great, But you know,
20:08
Speaker 2: like coming into it, it's like, well, this is.
20:09
Speaker 1: New, this is unknown, this is what is he going
20:12
Speaker 1: to ask me?
20:12
Speaker 2: Because there's no brief, there's no preparation, there's no rehearsal.
20:17
Speaker 2: Do you ever think about how else can I think
20:20
Speaker 2: about this other than that any way which might be
20:23
Speaker 2: a better way?
20:25
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it's all about kind of zooming out
20:28
Speaker 3: a bit and trying to, yeah, trying to think about
20:34
Speaker 3: the situations that kind of external perspective a bit. But
20:40
Speaker 3: I still have my own lens that I'm looking through,
20:45
Speaker 3: and I guess that this is why I try to
20:51
Speaker 3: make sure that my lens is as I can't say,
20:57
Speaker 3: I can't say objective, but us I don't know what's
21:05
Speaker 3: the best word to use.
21:08
Speaker 2: Kind of I think I think objective as you can
21:11
Speaker 2: as you can be right, and that's possible.
21:14
Speaker 3: Probably that's the word right right thinking about.
21:18
Speaker 2: I feel like part of self awareness and self understanding
21:22
Speaker 2: is realizing how much self awareness you don't have.
21:28
Speaker 3: My view is always going to be subjective, but I'm
21:32
Speaker 3: being curious. I'm really trying to allow the person to
21:37
Speaker 3: share their experience with me, and I'm just the person
21:43
Speaker 3: who kind of listens and processes this, and yes and
21:50
Speaker 3: for kind of facilitates this process.
21:53
Speaker 2: When you we're going to jump into your work a
21:55
Speaker 2: little bit in a moment, but just staying in the
21:58
Speaker 2: personal space with you. So when you found this out, well,
22:04
Speaker 2: I guess the first people you told about your AUDIHD
22:10
Speaker 2: was your family?
22:11
Speaker 1: Am I correct?
22:12
Speaker 3: My husband?
22:13
Speaker 1: Yes? Did he go and or did he go oh
22:17
Speaker 1: my god?
22:19
Speaker 3: No? He was just so neutral about it. I was
22:22
Speaker 3: actually a bit shocked. He was like, we were cooking
22:25
Speaker 3: dinners together. Then I went, you know what, I'm pretty
22:27
Speaker 3: sure I have AUDIOHD and he goes to, whatever, if
22:31
Speaker 3: you told me you're an alien, I don't really care.
22:36
Speaker 1: What a good dude.
22:38
Speaker 2: And did you feel apprehensive about telling people or did
22:42
Speaker 2: you kind of feel a little bit relieved of Well,
22:45
Speaker 2: this all makes sense. This kind of is more understandable.
22:49
Speaker 3: It's sound a bit awkward, but at the end I
22:55
Speaker 3: did feel relieved. I feel like it's still a bit
22:59
Speaker 3: of a process where people will continue kind of like
23:05
Speaker 3: people around me will continue questioning about this and what
23:08
Speaker 3: it is like, possibly reflecting what this means for them personally.
23:14
Speaker 3: So it's only kind of the beginning of that journey
23:18
Speaker 3: because it's all very new. But ultimately I think it's
23:22
Speaker 3: been a really positive experience.
23:25
Speaker 2: I feel like it's going to give you a level
23:28
Speaker 2: of understanding and empathy and awareness that other clinicians might
23:37
Speaker 2: not have. I'm not saying won't, but because obviously you've
23:41
Speaker 2: you know, you're a clinical psychologist, you've got a PhD
23:44
Speaker 2: in that, you know, you've got a master's degree, and
23:47
Speaker 2: you've done a huge amount of work in their space.
23:51
Speaker 2: But also you just you know, you're living kind of
23:56
Speaker 2: a version of what other people are living. I know
23:58
Speaker 2: there's lots of variation, but that I kind of think
24:02
Speaker 2: it makes a little bit of a superpower almost.
24:05
Speaker 3: I agree with you, And that's the thing I've been
24:07
Speaker 3: kind of experiencing for a long time. When working with
24:10
Speaker 3: your divergent people, I will almost assume things they're experiencing
24:17
Speaker 3: and share my assumptions with them and they go, yes, exactly,
24:20
Speaker 3: that's it, and he's surprised, like, how do I know
24:24
Speaker 3: all those things? And initially I just thought, well, I
24:28
Speaker 3: just kind of have that intuitive feeling or maybe that
24:31
Speaker 3: knowledge that I've gained. But now I realize it's more
24:34
Speaker 3: than that. It's my personal experience that helps me build
24:38
Speaker 3: that level of understanding and empathy, and that's really helpful
24:42
Speaker 3: as a clinician. I think that's so it is a superpower.
24:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that intersection of you know, education and training,
24:52
Speaker 2: but you know, in the moment kind of learning on
24:56
Speaker 2: the job, learning experience, empathy, aware insight, all of the
25:01
Speaker 2: stuff you can't really teach at a university.
25:03
Speaker 1: So we need the training, we need to understand the
25:05
Speaker 1: brain and the mind, and we need to understand human behavior.
25:09
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, all that additional
25:12
Speaker 2: stuff I think is going to make not your job easier,
25:17
Speaker 2: but I think it's going to make you more effective
25:19
Speaker 2: as a practitioner, or it might already be doing that,
25:22
Speaker 2: of course, you know.
25:23
Speaker 1: And I think the other thing too, is.
25:26
Speaker 2: Like, this is going to sound contrary and contradictory, and well,
25:32
Speaker 2: I think it's great to be academically qualified because we
25:35
Speaker 2: do lots of good learning, and we start to understand
25:40
Speaker 2: the science behind whatever the treatment or the diagnoses or
25:44
Speaker 2: the whatever. You know, we understand the research, and but
25:48
Speaker 2: there's stuff that you know, Like I know, I was
25:51
Speaker 2: basically an inverted commas using psychology and my understanding of
25:58
Speaker 2: my natural and experience and on the job learning with
26:01
Speaker 2: psychology and human behavior, and like when I was in
26:06
Speaker 2: my twenties, even though I wasn't a psychologist, and even
26:09
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just finishing my PhD in psychology, I
26:12
Speaker 2: don't actually think drastically different because I came from being
26:18
Speaker 2: small best kid to being a kind of quite fit
26:22
Speaker 2: athletic kid to working with people in the gym. And
26:26
Speaker 2: one thing that everyone has in common when they come
26:28
Speaker 2: to a gym is that they want to change. Well,
26:30
Speaker 2: change is a multi dimensional process. It's not about your
26:34
Speaker 2: body fat percentage or your lower back or your blood pressure.
26:38
Speaker 2: It's about one hundred things. So even though I knew
26:42
Speaker 2: how to prescribe exercise, and I understood pretty well anatomy
26:45
Speaker 2: and physiology and biomechanics and nutrition and energy systems and
26:49
Speaker 2: all of those things which you kind of need to know,
26:52
Speaker 2: but if you don't understand the human who lives in
26:55
Speaker 2: the body, you can't do a great job. So I
26:59
Speaker 2: was all more fascinated with why they think the way
27:02
Speaker 2: they do, and why they choose the way they do,
27:04
Speaker 2: and why they behave the way they do. Then I
27:06
Speaker 2: was in their body composition, and that kind of helped
27:09
Speaker 2: me become quite good at my job.
27:12
Speaker 1: But that was before I sat in one lecture of anything, you.
27:15
Speaker 3: Know, thinking about change. I mean, yes, exactly. You can't
27:20
Speaker 3: just focus on one thing without actually focusing all the
27:25
Speaker 3: other areas which are implicating that.
27:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like we were chatting the other day about the
27:32
Speaker 2: importance of even for people who do get diagnosed, you know,
27:37
Speaker 2: somewhere in the neurodivergent space. And then you go, So
27:40
Speaker 2: there's that, there's understanding that and what's going on there.
27:43
Speaker 2: But then there's also I hope they get some good sleep. Also,
27:46
Speaker 2: I hope they don't drink too much booze. Also, I
27:49
Speaker 2: hope they do I hope they have a kind of
27:51
Speaker 2: active lifestyle. Also, you know, I hope they do meaningful
27:55
Speaker 2: work that stimulates them and makes them feel like they
27:59
Speaker 2: have a purpose.
28:00
Speaker 1: Like there's all of these other things that.
28:02
Speaker 2: You won't find in the DSM five or any well
28:05
Speaker 2: whatever you know, where you're talking about, how do I
28:07
Speaker 2: help this person manage their.
28:09
Speaker 1: Mind or their brain and what are all the things
28:15
Speaker 1: that we don't really talk about much that affect that
28:18
Speaker 1: because it's that other stuff as well, that broader understanding
28:22
Speaker 1: of the totality of the challenge.
28:26
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and the more we learn about how people here
28:30
Speaker 3: on your a divergent function, the more we understand the
28:33
Speaker 3: importance of this holistic approach, the kind of really thinking
28:38
Speaker 3: about making some meaningful changes in terms of the person's
28:42
Speaker 3: everyday lifestyle and functioning. So just the other day I
28:48
Speaker 3: saw the article which said that people say who have
28:52
Speaker 3: ADHD have a much lower life expectancy, like on average, yeah.
29:01
Speaker 1: Or something.
29:02
Speaker 3: Oh, look for males, it's about seven years less. For females,
29:07
Speaker 3: which I was really surprised to hear, it's about nine
29:10
Speaker 3: years less.
29:11
Speaker 1: Wow, And why is that shock?
29:14
Speaker 3: Why is that?
29:16
Speaker 1: Doctor? And why is that?
29:18
Speaker 3: I think there are lots of ways to explain this.
29:21
Speaker 3: One is that people with ADHD tend to have high
29:27
Speaker 3: levels of impulsivity. In general, they are more prone to
29:30
Speaker 3: different types of addictions, so that can have a big
29:34
Speaker 3: impact on their lifestyle. But also we know that our
29:38
Speaker 3: DHD goes a lot goes hand in hand with different
29:42
Speaker 3: physical health conditions like heart conditions, obesity, stress, anxiety. All
29:52
Speaker 3: of those things contribute to the person's health and legality.
30:00
Speaker 3: Suicide is another thing. So people with who are your
30:05
Speaker 3: idivision have high risks of suicide. So there are lots
30:10
Speaker 3: and lots of factors to consider, but I think it's
30:12
Speaker 3: just something that really stresses they need for that more
30:18
Speaker 3: holistic approach.
30:20
Speaker 2: What is okay, So let's let's pair it right back.
30:26
Speaker 2: So somebody's listening to this and they kind of know
30:31
Speaker 2: what neurodivergence is, but can you give us firstly, so
30:38
Speaker 2: two part question stand by. Part one of the questions
30:42
Speaker 2: is can you give us a kind of a lay
30:44
Speaker 2: person's kind of easy peasy to understand definition of neurodivergence.
30:52
Speaker 1: In your language.
30:53
Speaker 2: And then the second thing is, well, let's start there
30:55
Speaker 2: before I give you, like, just help us just understand,
31:00
Speaker 2: because I think we all guess it's like, oh you're different, cool,
31:03
Speaker 2: how what what kind of is it?
31:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, without going too much into the kind of
31:09
Speaker 3: the technical nuances, it's really having your brain. That's why,
31:14
Speaker 3: in a different way to what the kind of the
31:17
Speaker 3: society deems as the stand up setting. So it's like
31:22
Speaker 3: having a different operating system and a way so this
31:25
Speaker 3: like we can imagine this the Mac system and the
31:28
Speaker 3: Microsoft system, and there are different systems. One's better for something,
31:32
Speaker 3: the other is better for something else. But if we
31:37
Speaker 3: try to run the say the MAC program on a
31:42
Speaker 3: Microsoft system, it's going to be it's not going to
31:45
Speaker 3: be it's not going to be optimal in the way
31:49
Speaker 3: it operates. And same with someone who's near a diversion.
31:53
Speaker 3: So we kind of the society expects them to function
31:58
Speaker 3: in a social setting, which is which often doesn't match
32:05
Speaker 3: the needs of someone who's neurodivision because the way they
32:09
Speaker 3: see things, the way they feel things, the way they
32:12
Speaker 3: perceive and sense the world is different to the neurotypicals,
32:18
Speaker 3: and that can be quite disabling in.
32:23
Speaker 2: A way, I feel like sometimes, So we have a
32:27
Speaker 2: guy who comes on here a lot. His name's are
32:30
Speaker 2: Bobby Capuccio, and he had a brain injury when he
32:34
Speaker 2: was a kid. By the way, he's super smart. He's
32:36
Speaker 2: got this like idetic memory. He's a great communicator. He's
32:40
Speaker 2: actually a coach and brilliant, right, but he's got Tourette's
32:45
Speaker 2: so he's got all these ticks and he's one of
32:47
Speaker 2: my he's one of my best friends, right, But he's
32:49
Speaker 2: got all these ticks, and he's you know, he's quirky
32:52
Speaker 2: and he's and I think when people sometimes meet him,
32:57
Speaker 2: they don't know who exactly how to talk to him,
33:01
Speaker 2: although he is actually a brilliant communicator and all that.
33:06
Speaker 2: And you know, because I've known him a long time
33:09
Speaker 2: and it's you know, I'm not even aware of it
33:12
Speaker 2: anymore because he's a friend. Then I see some people
33:16
Speaker 2: respond around him, and sometimes he says things that are
33:19
Speaker 2: funny to him but not funny to anyone else.
33:21
Speaker 1: Like sometimes you know that, and you're like, oh, okay,
33:27
Speaker 1: is it I mean, it's nobody's job. But when it.
33:30
Speaker 2: Comes to people that are really different from us, whatever
33:32
Speaker 2: that means, whether or not we're on the spectrum or
33:35
Speaker 2: they're not, or when you're a divergent, is it our
33:38
Speaker 2: job to try to Like, you know, if you just
33:43
Speaker 2: be yourself, you might be offensive to them, or you
33:45
Speaker 2: might be intimidating to them. Like I know that I
33:48
Speaker 2: can be intimidating. I don't want to be intimidating. I
33:51
Speaker 2: don't try to be intimidating, but for a range of
33:55
Speaker 2: reasons for some people, and I completely understand it. I
33:59
Speaker 2: can be inning how other people will go, Oh, you're funny,
34:01
Speaker 2: or you're inspiring, or you're clever, or you're an idiot
34:04
Speaker 2: or whatever. Is it our job to try to work
34:08
Speaker 2: around them or just be ourselves?
34:12
Speaker 3: Are you talking from a neurotypical typical person specifically?
34:16
Speaker 2: So for a neurotypical person who intersects, do we try
34:20
Speaker 2: to I mean, I feel like if I'm trying to
34:23
Speaker 2: accommodate them, maybe on being somewhat condescending or like I
34:27
Speaker 2: just want to know, and I know there's no single
34:30
Speaker 2: best thing.
34:31
Speaker 1: But like what is how do we approach that?
34:35
Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, there's this whole notion of the double empathy.
34:39
Speaker 3: Have you heard about.
34:40
Speaker 1: That quig enlighten me doc.
34:45
Speaker 3: So this is kind of the viewpoint that it's not
34:47
Speaker 3: like nero virgin people have deficits in the way they
34:52
Speaker 3: communicate or the way they're socialize, but it's mostly that
34:57
Speaker 3: their style of socializing and communicating is different.
35:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
35:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so just like new redivergent people may feel
35:07
Speaker 3: that the newer typical people communicate in a weed or
35:12
Speaker 3: or could or you know uncomfortable way or way that
35:18
Speaker 3: makes them feel uncomfortable. Likewise, neurotypical people may feel the
35:21
Speaker 3: same when they communicate with someone who's new redivergent. And
35:26
Speaker 3: I guess it's not so much about really changing the
35:30
Speaker 3: way you communicate, but it's more about having that empathy
35:34
Speaker 3: and that understanding that yes, look, this is how this
35:37
Speaker 3: person interacts, this is what feels more comfortable for them.
35:41
Speaker 3: And if you have that level of understanding and awareness,
35:45
Speaker 3: I guess it would naturally help you adapt to that
35:50
Speaker 3: way of communication in one way or another.
35:55
Speaker 1: Could you thank you for that? Could you tell us
35:57
Speaker 1: a bit about the work that you do.
36:00
Speaker 2: You're a out thearies, but your day to day, your job, Like,
36:03
Speaker 2: what is your job now, obviously you're a psych, Yeah,
36:07
Speaker 2: what's your day to day?
36:09
Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, as a clinical psych I do a bit
36:11
Speaker 3: of therapy, mostly with kids and adolescens, But apart from that,
36:18
Speaker 3: I actually do quite a lot of assessments, a lot
36:20
Speaker 3: of clinical assessments. So my real passion is helping people
36:28
Speaker 3: learn more about who they are and why they do
36:30
Speaker 3: certain things their way they do. I guess I'm very
36:35
Speaker 3: analytical in the way I think, and I really enjoy
36:40
Speaker 3: the process of learning more about the person's experience and
36:45
Speaker 3: kind of integrating all the knowledge I gained from them
36:49
Speaker 3: in order to make sense of the experience. So I
36:53
Speaker 3: show you.
36:54
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, sorry.
36:56
Speaker 2: So people come to you for a diagnosis or for
37:00
Speaker 2: at least to meet you and then a potential diagnosis,
37:03
Speaker 2: or people get sent to you maybe they've seen someone
37:06
Speaker 2: else another professional, and then they send them to you
37:09
Speaker 2: to get a diagnosis. Is that correct?
37:12
Speaker 3: That's right?
37:13
Speaker 1: Yep? What are I feel like?
37:17
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's say I come along and you go, Craig,
37:20
Speaker 2: you're this and that. Then I go, all right, thanks
37:24
Speaker 2: for those two labels or thanks for it, and then
37:27
Speaker 2: I go see, yeah, like there is there a like
37:34
Speaker 2: what do you think about all of this? What can improve?
37:36
Speaker 2: Because no system is a perfect system, but is it?
37:41
Speaker 2: Do you get frustrated with any part of that? As
37:44
Speaker 2: like what is the average person that go, here's your diagnosis,
37:47
Speaker 2: see you later, or now you've got to go see
37:49
Speaker 2: these people will do that or follow these How does
37:52
Speaker 2: it work post diagnosis?
37:54
Speaker 3: Yeah? Look, I feel like this is a bit of
37:57
Speaker 3: an area that's quite problematic at the moment. And thinking
38:01
Speaker 3: about adults I work with often they leave the office
38:05
Speaker 3: with the diagnosis, but really not having anything else in
38:10
Speaker 3: place at that stage. So unfortunately I don't have capacity
38:15
Speaker 3: to offer ongoing therapy myself. I may refer to them
38:19
Speaker 3: to someone else, but usually there's a pretty long waiting
38:25
Speaker 3: time before a person can go and start seeing psychologists.
38:30
Speaker 3: Some people feel quite reluctant to start seeing someone from scratch.
38:33
Speaker 3: They feel like, well, I've already gone through this experience.
38:36
Speaker 3: Why do I have to start, you know, sharing everything,
38:42
Speaker 3: or like sharing all of this from scratch. Some people
38:47
Speaker 3: who lose the momentum. A lot of people kind of
38:49
Speaker 3: feel really inspired by their new knowledge and they feel like, oh,
38:53
Speaker 3: I want to really incorporate this into my life. I
38:57
Speaker 3: want to review things and to reprocess all the things
39:02
Speaker 3: I know and like all the things that have happened
39:05
Speaker 3: to me and the way I do things. But that's
39:08
Speaker 3: kind of a momentum that they have following the assessment,
39:13
Speaker 3: and gradually these declines and I when I sometimes I
39:18
Speaker 3: get a chance to catch up with those people I've diagnosed,
39:23
Speaker 3: say in a year's time, and most of them still
39:28
Speaker 3: haven't got any supports in place. Yeah, yeah, it's almost
39:33
Speaker 3: like with time, they just feel well, all right, that's
39:39
Speaker 3: now I know that I'm your divergent, but the actual
39:45
Speaker 3: change hasn't really happened. And this is really sad. I
39:53
Speaker 3: feel like it's an opportunity, or like a huge opportunity
39:56
Speaker 3: that's been missed.
39:58
Speaker 2: And I think, like with any other in inverted commas
40:02
Speaker 2: condition or diagnosis, mental, emotional, physiological, it's not like one
40:12
Speaker 2: pill fits every problem, you know, And like we know
40:17
Speaker 2: it's pretty well known that statistically not everybody vibes or
40:21
Speaker 2: gets a positive outcome with talk therapy. Yeah, like some
40:24
Speaker 2: people it does not work for that's kind of we
40:27
Speaker 2: know that a lot of people it's pretty good, and
40:30
Speaker 2: some people it's amazing. You know, it's trying to figure out,
40:34
Speaker 2: not only because I think one of the challenges is
40:38
Speaker 2: that when it comes to any post diagnosis intervention, there's
40:44
Speaker 2: still got to be nuanced.
40:45
Speaker 1: There's still got to be individual kind.
40:47
Speaker 2: Of awareness and care for the person, because what will
40:50
Speaker 2: work for patient A will not for patient B or
40:53
Speaker 2: C necessarily. So it's just like you and I, or
40:58
Speaker 2: we might get another lady who's your age, you know,
41:00
Speaker 2: very similar to you in terms of physical appearance and
41:04
Speaker 2: shape and size and all that stuff, and we feed
41:06
Speaker 2: her a particular diet and your particular diet. We get
41:08
Speaker 2: two very different outcomes because you're not the same people
41:11
Speaker 2: with the same genetics, And therefore, where would be silly
41:15
Speaker 2: to expect the same outcome just because we've got the
41:17
Speaker 2: same uh you know, intervention, And so too with other
41:22
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, here's people with ten different illnesses. Let's
41:25
Speaker 2: give them all this one medication because they are all sick,
41:29
Speaker 2: and here is medicine. And when you're sick, you need medicine.
41:32
Speaker 2: That obviously a silly concept. And then the thing is
41:36
Speaker 2: with you assessing people cognitively and emotionally and mentally. It's like, well,
41:41
Speaker 2: of course everybody needs not everybody needs something different, but
41:44
Speaker 2: a lot of people what will work will be something
41:48
Speaker 2: quite maybe out of the box. Like one of my
41:50
Speaker 2: friends went to talk therapy for a year, toughted out
41:55
Speaker 2: by the way, I've got lots of friends you go
41:57
Speaker 2: to therapy and love it everyone, so I'm not canning therapy.
42:00
Speaker 2: But for him it just didn't work. And then it
42:03
Speaker 2: never surfed in his life, and he went away with
42:05
Speaker 2: a bunch of mates who dragged him on a surfing
42:08
Speaker 2: weekend and it was like it opened some door of
42:11
Speaker 2: joy in his.
42:11
Speaker 1: Brain and he now.
42:15
Speaker 2: So much so that he surfs. He lives works in Melbourne.
42:19
Speaker 2: He drives somewhere twice a week to surf, and sometimes
42:24
Speaker 2: it's at five o'clock at night and he's on the
42:26
Speaker 2: waves until eight or whatever. And like I've seen him,
42:30
Speaker 2: I've spoken with him. He's like, this has changed my life.
42:33
Speaker 2: And it's for him the you know, if not the answer,
42:37
Speaker 2: A big part of the answer for him was nature
42:39
Speaker 2: was waves. Was was just the ebb and flow of
42:43
Speaker 2: the water and the tide and the I don't know,
42:46
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't understand what happened in his
42:48
Speaker 2: brain or his mind. But he was like a he's
42:51
Speaker 2: just a transformed person. He's less anxious, he's less of
42:55
Speaker 2: an overthinker, he's more calm. It's like he cannot wait
42:58
Speaker 2: to get there. That's like he's medicine. But nobody's going
43:01
Speaker 2: to prescribe surfing.
43:03
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
43:05
Speaker 2: Okay, you're anxious, right, you need to go to Phillip
43:08
Speaker 2: Island and surf.
43:09
Speaker 3: You know, there's actually quite a lot of evidence showing
43:12
Speaker 3: that people with their digity thrive in nature. So having
43:17
Speaker 3: the kind of open green space it's really really helpful
43:22
Speaker 3: for the idgy brain. So really thinking beyond just the therapy,
43:28
Speaker 3: I think is very important. And I've been seeing people
43:33
Speaker 3: who found things like music therapy very helpful. For example,
43:38
Speaker 3: especially people who may not be so good, like you know,
43:42
Speaker 3: just verbal communication, they find that being able to express
43:47
Speaker 3: themselves through art or music is like very helpful. And
43:52
Speaker 3: their official sport is another thing. Just like you say, like,
43:56
Speaker 3: that's really really essential. So usually that's something I would
44:01
Speaker 3: recommend to every person I diagnose with ADHD. Doing something
44:05
Speaker 3: that's active. It does make a huge difference in the
44:10
Speaker 3: way the person feels, the way their brain works. You're right,
44:18
Speaker 3: there are lots of different approaches the person kind of
44:23
Speaker 3: needs to consider when thinking about, well, how can I
44:26
Speaker 3: make my life? I think the word better is a
44:32
Speaker 3: good way to use, but more satisfying.
44:38
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of sorry listeners?
44:40
Speaker 2: When I'm in the middle of something, Anna, doctor Anna,
44:44
Speaker 2: I go down a rabbit hole for a week or
44:47
Speaker 2: two or three. I'm like, I'm all about this, and
44:49
Speaker 2: I'm reading that, and I'm listening to that, and I'm
44:51
Speaker 2: studying that, or I had a revelation and sadly.
44:54
Speaker 1: From my audience they've got to go on. They don't
44:56
Speaker 1: have to. If they keep listening, they're going to go
44:58
Speaker 1: on a bit of a two or three week journey
45:01
Speaker 1: with me into this thing. Right. So have you heard of.
45:05
Speaker 2: An author called, I'm sure you have, Eckhart Toll, kind
45:07
Speaker 2: of the spiritual teacher. Okay, okay, So he's a very
45:12
Speaker 2: famous spiritual teacher. He wrote a book called The Power
45:15
Speaker 2: of Now.
45:16
Speaker 1: He's written a.
45:16
Speaker 2: Bunch a New Earth and his anyway, he went on
45:21
Speaker 2: his own journey now, like like you, I'm kind of
45:27
Speaker 2: like I used to be quite religious, because that's what
45:29
Speaker 2: I grew up in. You know, I was trained and
45:31
Speaker 2: told and taught and programmed and manipulated to go, this
45:35
Speaker 2: is how life works. This is there's God, there's heaven,
45:37
Speaker 2: there's Hell, there's judgment, there's an eternal lake of fire,
45:40
Speaker 2: there's and.
45:41
Speaker 1: This is how it works, not like this is how
45:43
Speaker 1: it might be.
45:44
Speaker 2: No. So I wasn't taught how to think. I was
45:46
Speaker 2: taught what to think, right, So all that stuff. But
45:51
Speaker 2: I'm going to so can I read you something and
45:54
Speaker 2: tell me if this is completely weird? But this is
45:57
Speaker 2: like almost my summary so called The Power of Now.
46:02
Speaker 2: I've read it twice physically, and now I'm listening to it.
46:05
Speaker 2: But I haven't listened to it for like twenty years,
46:07
Speaker 2: and it keeps blowing my mind. And the first time
46:10
Speaker 2: I read it, actually I didn't finish it. I thought,
46:13
Speaker 2: this is complete psychobabble, pseudo spiritual garbage. And then I
46:20
Speaker 2: read it about five years later and went, oh, this
46:22
Speaker 2: is brilliant, This is brilliant. How smart is he?
46:25
Speaker 1: Right?
46:26
Speaker 2: Obviously the book was the same and I was a
46:28
Speaker 2: bit different. Right, So I wrote this thing this morning.
46:33
Speaker 2: I want your thoughts on this. This is a little
46:34
Speaker 2: bit of a summary, like about a forty words summary
46:38
Speaker 2: of where I'm at in the book Identity with Mind.
46:42
Speaker 2: You have a mind, but you are not a mind.
46:45
Speaker 2: You have thoughts, but you are not a thought. You
46:47
Speaker 2: tell stories, but you are not a story. Your mind
46:50
Speaker 2: will get hijacked by fear, but you are not fear.
46:53
Speaker 2: It will replay the past and imagine the future, but
46:56
Speaker 2: you live in neither. It will convince you that you're
46:59
Speaker 2: not enough too much. Both are stories, Neither are you.
47:03
Speaker 2: Your mind is a tool, a powerful, messy, creative, unreliable tool,
47:07
Speaker 2: but it is not your identity. You are the observer,
47:10
Speaker 2: the awareness the one who notices I like to think
47:14
Speaker 2: about the mind and me as separate entities.
47:18
Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
47:20
Speaker 3: It's interesting what you've just read. It's very much aligned
47:23
Speaker 3: with the kind of act acceptance and commitment therapy approach.
47:28
Speaker 3: I'm not sure if you're familiar with this.
47:30
Speaker 1: Apro act actor.
47:32
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly so. Kind of being detached, taking that detached
47:36
Speaker 3: stance from your thoughts, your feelings, and that really does
47:42
Speaker 3: help to observe what's happening for you, to observe your experience,
47:46
Speaker 3: to observe the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves from
47:51
Speaker 3: that more almost objective perspective. And I think that's an
47:56
Speaker 3: amazing skill to have, an amazing thing to remember and
47:58
Speaker 3: actually does some And I teach to both kids and adults,
48:02
Speaker 3: especially those who are pouring to things like anxiety. I
48:05
Speaker 3: think that's something very helpful.
48:09
Speaker 1: Now you've done very well. We're going to let you
48:11
Speaker 1: go very soon.
48:12
Speaker 2: I said too, I said to doctor Anna, before we start,
48:15
Speaker 2: how long have you you got?
48:17
Speaker 1: I don't want it to be too long.
48:19
Speaker 3: I don't blame you experience.
48:24
Speaker 1: Are you going? Okay?
48:25
Speaker 3: Need to go along with the flow?
48:28
Speaker 1: Okay?
48:29
Speaker 2: Well, one thing I if I try to think, uh,
48:34
Speaker 2: you know, I try to have that theory of mind
48:36
Speaker 2: thing going on, even with a podcast, even talking to
48:39
Speaker 2: people who are not listening right now but will be
48:41
Speaker 2: in the future. I try and make it right now
48:43
Speaker 2: for me for them, And I try and think if
48:46
Speaker 2: I was listening to this, what would I want to know?
48:48
Speaker 2: And there's this left of center question I want to
48:51
Speaker 2: ask you, and that is where are you from? I think,
48:54
Speaker 2: like we can all hear your beautiful accent. People want
48:56
Speaker 2: to go, where did she grow up? Where are you from? Yeah,
49:01
Speaker 2: what's the answer to that?
49:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, my family comes from Russia. I came here when
49:05
Speaker 3: I was ten.
49:07
Speaker 1: Wow.
49:09
Speaker 3: Yes, I still do have the accent. And I yes,
49:17
Speaker 3: we speak Russian at home. My husband's also from a
49:20
Speaker 3: Russian background, So that's very hard for you to get
49:25
Speaker 3: rid of the accent.
49:26
Speaker 1: But well, here's the thing.
49:30
Speaker 2: Your English is perfect, but you have this beautiful accent
49:33
Speaker 2: over the top of it.
49:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, did it? I don't know, is it?
49:39
Speaker 2: Do you remember when you got here how long it
49:41
Speaker 2: took you to kind of adapt to the culture, And
49:45
Speaker 2: because the cadence of the way that Australians speak and
49:49
Speaker 2: the way that we kind of bend words and syllables
49:52
Speaker 2: and letters. It's not it's like I mean, but us
49:56
Speaker 2: Ausies we go, well, of course we speak English. But
49:59
Speaker 2: for any any other English speaking countries that come over
50:03
Speaker 2: here and they're like, it's kind of English.
50:07
Speaker 3: It's a really interesting question. The thing is, I feel
50:10
Speaker 3: like being an immigrant actually is something that got in
50:15
Speaker 3: the way for me recognizing my new euro divergence earlier,
50:19
Speaker 3: because I have never fully adapted to the Australian culture
50:25
Speaker 3: and I was thinking, well, that's just because of my
50:28
Speaker 3: you know, because of my Russian background, yes, But then
50:33
Speaker 3: I realized, well, actually no, there's more to it.
50:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what do you think now? Like what you
50:39
Speaker 1: take now?
50:41
Speaker 3: So now I feel that it's not about the culture.
50:43
Speaker 3: It's not about the Russian or the Australian Culture's just
50:46
Speaker 3: about the way my brain works at certain kind of interactions,
50:52
Speaker 3: somewhat challenging for me and more effortful for me. And
50:56
Speaker 3: it's not to do with language. Your culture is just
50:59
Speaker 3: to do with kind of my less typical brain.
51:06
Speaker 2: Do you know what I think? Like, I know when
51:09
Speaker 2: I turn up to do stuff and it's weird because
51:16
Speaker 2: I don't like, I really don't like people putting me
51:19
Speaker 2: on a pedestal or thinking that I'm smarter than anyone
51:23
Speaker 2: in the room. I might have some knowledge that you don't,
51:27
Speaker 2: but knowledge doesn't necessarily equal intelligence.
51:30
Speaker 1: By the way, there are lots of knowledgeable.
51:32
Speaker 2: People who are I was going to swear, but I
51:34
Speaker 2: won't because you're so polite, who are not that smart.
51:38
Speaker 2: And there are lots of really smart people who had
51:40
Speaker 2: a very limited or intelligent people who have very limited education. Traditionally,
51:46
Speaker 2: But when I when I talk to audiences and even
51:50
Speaker 2: on this show, I try to be not in a
51:53
Speaker 2: disingenuous way, but as open and real about my own
51:57
Speaker 2: bullshit and my own insecurities and my own gaps you know, and.
52:02
Speaker 1: Talk to people about.
52:03
Speaker 2: Well, of course I'm still insecure, and of course I
52:06
Speaker 2: still want your approval, and it's not as bad as
52:08
Speaker 2: it once was, and of course I'm periodically an overthinker,
52:12
Speaker 2: and of course all of these things. But if I
52:15
Speaker 2: wait till I get all of my metaphoric shit together
52:18
Speaker 2: before I help people, I'm never going to help anyone
52:22
Speaker 2: because I'm always a work in progress. I'm never there.
52:26
Speaker 2: I might improve or learn or grow or evolve and
52:29
Speaker 2: get better, but I still do dumb things. I still
52:33
Speaker 2: get things wrong. I still make bad decisions, I still
52:37
Speaker 2: take actions that don't work. I still fail, depending on
52:41
Speaker 2: how we frame failure. But I think the fact that
52:45
Speaker 2: you go by the way I'm neurodivergent, I think that's
52:49
Speaker 2: a I think that's an asset.
52:52
Speaker 1: I think that gives you. Yes, I'm a doctor of this.
52:54
Speaker 2: And that, and yes, I know how to diagnose and
52:57
Speaker 2: treat people and work with people. But also by the way,
53:01
Speaker 2: I actually think that adds a real layer of credibility
53:05
Speaker 2: to people. And I would rather work with you than
53:07
Speaker 2: someone with all the other stuff the same, but without that,
53:10
Speaker 2: because I know you're going to get me because you're
53:13
Speaker 2: a bit like me, you know what I mean.
53:16
Speaker 3: Yes, and I really hope that this is how people
53:18
Speaker 3: will kind of feel when they come to see me,
53:21
Speaker 3: being feeling that they have this opportunity to really be
53:29
Speaker 3: genuine with me and be understood because I share that experience.
53:38
Speaker 3: And yes, it did take a bit of courage kind
53:40
Speaker 3: of coming to this decision of speaking openly about this.
53:44
Speaker 3: As I said, I have been kind of contemplating with
53:47
Speaker 3: I should publicly if enough. It does make me feel
53:51
Speaker 3: more vulnerable in a way. But on the other hand,
53:56
Speaker 3: I do feel like that's definitely the right decision to make,
54:00
Speaker 3: and it's just all about being genuine with myself and
54:02
Speaker 3: with the people I work with. Really, I almost felt
54:07
Speaker 3: like I was deceiving them, deceiving the people I work
54:12
Speaker 3: with by not opening up in terms of how I feel. Yeah,
54:18
Speaker 3: that my personal neurodivergence, although it previously hasn't been formalized
54:23
Speaker 3: in the way is now, but still I kind of
54:26
Speaker 3: had that, Yeah, that.
54:30
Speaker 2: In a kind of understanding or knowing, Well, unless you're
54:33
Speaker 2: going to announce it on Channel nine News, it doesn't
54:35
Speaker 2: get much more public than this podcast. It's like that,
54:39
Speaker 2: it's definitely public now, So well done you. I have one,
54:45
Speaker 2: I think one last question. Who knows it could be too,
54:47
Speaker 2: But my last question for now is I feel like
54:52
Speaker 2: this is a bit of a cheesy question, but I
54:54
Speaker 2: want to know the answer anyway. What do people get
54:57
Speaker 2: wrong or misunderstand and about neurodivergence?
55:04
Speaker 3: Lots of things. There's so much stigma unfortunately still existing
55:08
Speaker 3: about neurodivergence that even when I told my best friend
55:12
Speaker 3: who has known me since she was nine, that neurodiversions,
55:17
Speaker 3: she went, well, you don't look in your o divergent.
55:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought that too.
55:24
Speaker 3: The whole notional masking, I think lots of like even
55:27
Speaker 3: thinking about the Doosem criteria, So the criteria we use
55:31
Speaker 3: for diagnosers, it's all about the visible symptoms, it's all
55:37
Speaker 3: about the visible behaviors. But there are people who are
55:41
Speaker 3: so good at masking and camouflaging their challenges that they experience,
55:48
Speaker 3: so they can perform really well, they can be very sizeable,
55:52
Speaker 3: they can communicate really really well, but it's a huge effort,
55:58
Speaker 3: and that's where the whole kind of autistic burnout comes
56:02
Speaker 3: into play, where the person may kind of be like
56:08
Speaker 3: functional a pizza, function really well and may perform really
56:14
Speaker 3: well in all sorts of situations, but then they experience
56:19
Speaker 3: this period of extreme exhaustion, extreme loss of capacity, which
56:24
Speaker 3: may go on for days or even weeks or months
56:28
Speaker 3: for some. And so these kind of over lines on
56:32
Speaker 3: the observable features is I think that's something that a
56:39
Speaker 3: lot of people kind of do when they think about someone,
56:45
Speaker 3: whether someone is neurodivergent or not. And that's yeah, I
56:50
Speaker 3: think that's a big issue.
56:53
Speaker 1: I wonder if I wonder if I'm on the spectrum,
56:55
Speaker 1: I wonder if you don't like I mean, I don't.
56:59
Speaker 2: I really don't know, but like people think I'm an
57:04
Speaker 2: extrovert because I do this right. But the funny thing is,
57:09
Speaker 2: and I mean it's not like I'm a shy little wallflower,
57:12
Speaker 2: but I really like being by myself. Like I live
57:14
Speaker 2: by myself. I've lived by myself since I left school.
57:18
Speaker 2: So I get up by myself, go to bed by myself.
57:21
Speaker 2: You know, I haven't seen anyone today. It's one o eight.
57:25
Speaker 2: I saw a few people at the cafe, but yeah,
57:28
Speaker 2: and I feel like I get people overload. If it's
57:33
Speaker 2: just that this is maybe you can help me, Like
57:37
Speaker 2: if I'm doing something meaningful like work, Like I'm doing
57:39
Speaker 2: an all day presentational workshop and I'm in the zone
57:43
Speaker 2: and I'm focused and i'm speaking and I'm answering questions
57:45
Speaker 2: and I'm working with people and I'm kind of taking
57:48
Speaker 2: us all on a.
57:49
Speaker 1: Ride for the day. Blah blah blah.
57:50
Speaker 2: I'm in it, but then I get home, I'm like,
57:53
Speaker 2: I feel like I've just run nine marathons. But when
57:55
Speaker 2: I'm in it, I'm fine. But when I'm out, like
57:58
Speaker 2: at a dinner, which I don't and it's not that
58:01
Speaker 2: dinner's bad or people that you know, but me sitting
58:04
Speaker 2: down with people for four hours are starting at six
58:07
Speaker 2: point thirty and leaving the restaurant at ten thirty. I
58:11
Speaker 2: cannot tell you how much I hate it. Like I
58:15
Speaker 2: just I get physically exhausted. Firstly, I don't drink, so
58:20
Speaker 2: but everybody else normally drinks, so by an hour into
58:23
Speaker 2: the conversation, the conversations are stupid. I also only eat
58:28
Speaker 2: one meal, so everyone else will have, you know what,
58:31
Speaker 2: three or four different courses. And all of this is good,
58:33
Speaker 2: by the way. I'm not criticizing them. In fact, I
58:36
Speaker 2: wish sometimes I was more like that, and I could
58:38
Speaker 2: go there and have as much fun as they have.
58:41
Speaker 2: I just don't, And so by eight o'clock I'm like,
58:44
Speaker 2: I'm looking for a way out, and it's you know,
58:47
Speaker 2: it's often I do not like meaning Oh I was
58:52
Speaker 2: going to say, meaningless conversations. So I have fun bullshit
58:55
Speaker 2: conversations with my mates where we're just talking garbage, but
58:58
Speaker 2: that's somewhat therapeutic and funny. And then I like having
59:02
Speaker 2: meaningful conversations like this, but just where there's just this
59:07
Speaker 2: superficial it's almost it's almost like this performative crap where
59:13
Speaker 2: you're talking for twenty minutes about nothing.
59:16
Speaker 1: Really, I'm like, I cannot wait to get out of it.
59:19
Speaker 2: So I don't know, but yeah, I don't enjoy the
59:21
Speaker 2: stuff that a lot of people enjoy.
59:23
Speaker 1: I don't at all.
59:24
Speaker 3: And that's exactly how I experience things. I'm not making
59:27
Speaker 3: any connection thoughts over, but that's exactly how I experienced this.
59:32
Speaker 3: I really enjoy socializing, I love meaningful conversations, I love
59:39
Speaker 3: dip diving into different topics. I love partying in fact,
59:42
Speaker 3: but I get so drained afterwards. Yes, and sometimes like
59:51
Speaker 3: I may have host a party and really enjoy the
59:54
Speaker 3: party in the moment, but then we'll take me a
59:57
Speaker 3: few days to get out out of that burnout state.
1:00:03
Speaker 3: And initially I was thinking, what's wrong with me? I
1:00:05
Speaker 3: was thinking, maybe it's my age, maybe it's me being
1:00:08
Speaker 3: you know, close to that perimenopausal stage, and all of
1:00:13
Speaker 3: those things can actually exaggerate the ADHD symptoms in the
1:00:19
Speaker 3: female in particular. But I've realized there's more to it.
1:00:23
Speaker 3: I realized that it is like that loss of capacity
1:00:28
Speaker 3: where even just speaking becomes effortful, moving becomes effortful. So
1:00:34
Speaker 3: it's really like, I mean, we know that neurotypical people
1:00:38
Speaker 3: also experience burnout, but for a neurotypical person it's kind
1:00:43
Speaker 3: of usually linked to that the stress and the fatigue
1:00:52
Speaker 3: that they experience, so it's almost like the phone that's
1:00:56
Speaker 3: running out of battery, and once they get the rest
1:00:59
Speaker 3: they need, they're usually back to the more or less
1:01:02
Speaker 3: normal state, whereas the autistic burnout it's linked to that
1:01:09
Speaker 3: conic conic misalignment with the environmental demands, so kind of
1:01:20
Speaker 3: demand additional demand, and that leads to those states where
1:01:26
Speaker 3: the person just really loses capacity to do the things
1:01:30
Speaker 3: they're quite capable of doing.
1:01:32
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
1:01:34
Speaker 2: And also like in certain environments, I'm happy to be
1:01:37
Speaker 2: up the front, but in normal social environments, I absolutely
1:01:42
Speaker 2: want to be at the back of the room. I
1:01:44
Speaker 2: don't want anyone to draw attention to me. I do
1:01:46
Speaker 2: not want to walk up. The amount of times where
1:01:49
Speaker 2: I've been at a function like a fiftieth or people
1:01:53
Speaker 2: go perhaps come and say something you're funny, I'm like, ah,
1:01:58
Speaker 2: I don't, like.
1:01:59
Speaker 1: I do not want to. We've all heard enough from me.
1:02:03
Speaker 1: We're good. No, no, no, I hate.
1:02:06
Speaker 2: That that stuff where yeah, just for the sake of
1:02:09
Speaker 2: saying something I would rather like. I'd like to go
1:02:12
Speaker 2: to whatever event, have some meaningful chats, talk to a
1:02:15
Speaker 2: few people, not sit up the back with a chip
1:02:17
Speaker 2: on my shoulder, but definitely not have any attention on
1:02:21
Speaker 2: me unless I'm doing my job and that's what my
1:02:24
Speaker 2: job requires. But other than that, none, Yes, So it
1:02:28
Speaker 2: is it is funny. There is a little bit of
1:02:30
Speaker 2: we do have something in common.
1:02:33
Speaker 1: Hey, guess what. Guess what? You survived your first podcast?
1:02:37
Speaker 3: Yeah? Go you. Hey, I feel like I've actually a
1:02:45
Speaker 3: chieved something pretty cool. So thank you for giving me
1:02:50
Speaker 3: this challenge, getting me through this challenge.
1:02:55
Speaker 1: Do you know what for a first time? And you
1:02:57
Speaker 1: did great?
1:02:58
Speaker 2: Well, you did great for anyone really, So it's it's
1:03:02
Speaker 2: very daunting because you don't know what's coming and you.
1:03:04
Speaker 1: Don't like you kind of know.
1:03:05
Speaker 2: I know what a podcast is, and I've heard Craig
1:03:07
Speaker 2: talk on the su or whatever.
1:03:09
Speaker 1: You can do a bit of prep. But sitting on
1:03:11
Speaker 1: the other.
1:03:12
Speaker 2: End of it, I'll tell you something that not many
1:03:16
Speaker 2: people know. I reckon, I've done ten to fifteen podcasts.
1:03:19
Speaker 2: Remember we've done well over two thousand. But where the
1:03:23
Speaker 2: person that the person that I was talking to quite smart,
1:03:28
Speaker 2: good communicators. They've got some interesting story, whether they've written
1:03:31
Speaker 2: a book or done a thing, or their career.
1:03:34
Speaker 1: Or their whatever. And then I put them. Then we
1:03:37
Speaker 1: go live and I go, hey, we won blah blah blah.
1:03:40
Speaker 2: And then the person becomes fifty percent Dummer straight away.
1:03:45
Speaker 2: And it's like the person that I was just chatting
1:03:47
Speaker 2: to has gone somewhere else. And we've had to restart
1:03:51
Speaker 2: many times, and a few I just couldn't put to
1:03:53
Speaker 2: air because so we didn't have to restart. You were good,
1:03:57
Speaker 2: you did great, and you know, now we have to
1:04:01
Speaker 2: get you back. So I appreciate you. Thank you for
1:04:04
Speaker 2: your time. You probably need to go and have a
1:04:07
Speaker 2: bit of a lie down. Now, do they brief, have
1:04:14
Speaker 2: a good talk to yourself.
1:04:15
Speaker 1: Now do you want to yes?
1:04:18
Speaker 2: Now what happens on podcasts is at the end, the
1:04:21
Speaker 2: host said says, is.
1:04:22
Speaker 1: There anything you want to share?
1:04:24
Speaker 2: Do you want to direct people towards anything, be that
1:04:27
Speaker 2: a book, a website, a social media page, anything, or not?
1:04:33
Speaker 1: Really up to you.
1:04:35
Speaker 3: That's a bit of a question. Look, there's just so
1:04:40
Speaker 3: much out the in terms of learning more about neuroda versions,
1:04:45
Speaker 3: which I think is such a fascinating thing. To learn about,
1:04:49
Speaker 3: but there's nothing specific I can recommend at the moment.
1:04:53
Speaker 2: I really meant more your stuff. See, this is how
1:04:57
Speaker 2: fresh you are. This is a chance for you to
1:05:00
Speaker 2: promote you. It's not you promoting anyone else.
1:05:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, not at the minute.
1:05:08
Speaker 3: I know at the moment. Hopefully in the future I'll
1:05:11
Speaker 3: have something to publicly share with others. In fact, I
1:05:15
Speaker 3: would love to maybe publish some books about my personal experience.
1:05:21
Speaker 3: So I have lots of ideas, lots of things I'm
1:05:27
Speaker 3: hoping to pursue the future, But at the moment, I
1:05:31
Speaker 3: don't feel there's anything that's quite ready to be shared
1:05:34
Speaker 3: with others.
1:05:35
Speaker 2: Well, you did share something amazing today, so we appreciate that.
1:05:40
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time, Thanks for being brave.
1:05:42
Speaker 2: Congratulations on ticking off your first podcast. You did a
1:05:47
Speaker 2: good job, doctor Anna. We appreciate you. We will say
1:05:51
Speaker 2: goodbye a fair so don't go away. I'll say goodbye
1:05:55
Speaker 2: the listeners and then we'll come back. So hey everyone,
1:05:59
Speaker 2: thanks for that. Appreciate you.
1:06:00
Speaker 1: Hope you got something out of that, and we will
1:06:02
Speaker 1: see you next time.
1:06:03
Speaker 3: Thanks Enna, Thanks Craig, who is a pleasure