Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Interview with Zenkyu Matcha, Kensuke Suji

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Interview with Zenkyu Matcha, Kensuke Suji · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan and this is my Co Ho Sungjun, who also goes by
0:05
Sam. Hello, And we're the cofounders
0:08
of Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah.
0:09
We launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey,
0:12
Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.
0:14
And today we have Kinski, Suji or Sutishan from Thank You
0:19
Matcha joining us. Welcome, Suji Song.
0:21
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
0:23
I'm so it's nice to be here. Actually, I'm a big fan of this
0:27
podcast, so I'm super happy to be here.
0:30
Thank you. We'd love if you could share a
0:33
little bit more about your background and where you're
0:36
based and about founding Zenq. Yeah.
0:39
Sure. Once again, as Zonzon introduced
0:42
me, my name is Suji San. I'm a Japanese.
0:45
My full name is Kensky Suji. I'm 36 years old.
0:49
I'm based in Tokyo. My background is I have been in
0:53
Tokyo and grown up here since elementary school actually, so I
0:58
don't have much of an international experience but in
1:01
Japanese and I heard I might be the first Japanese to be in this
1:05
show, so I'm super excited. Thank you so much for coming on.
1:12
Thank you. Thank you.
1:14
Just to share a bit of my professional background, after
1:18
graduating from university based in Tokyo, I joined a company
1:22
called PNG Proctor and Gamble. It's an American company.
1:26
Maybe you know, you know. That little.
1:29
Company over there, you know, exactly, exactly.
1:33
I was hired based in Japan but I was since then joining that
1:37
company for 10 1/2 years in marketing function.
1:40
So my bits background is all about marketing in FMCG brands.
1:45
I was working on was like Febreze which is air care
1:49
products like the sprays and which is a shaver, electric
1:53
shavers. So those are some of the brands.
1:55
I had passion and I was running in PNGI had chance to move to
1:59
Singapore but mainly working for the Japan market.
2:02
And that was my professional career.
2:04
And I recently started this brand, Matcha brand.
2:08
Thank you Matcha. Let me just explain a bit on
2:10
why. So as a marketer or as I had
2:14
expertise in marketing, a good marketer needs to be the
2:18
professional in that category and the brand and I was working
2:21
and for air care at the time, I am confident I was the ones who
2:26
know the most about air care in Japan, some competitors, but I
2:30
have to be like this. That's the that's the condition
2:33
of making good brand and good business.
2:35
A story for Shaver as well. And when I entered mid 30s, I
2:41
wanted to do something for Japan and I wanted to handle Japanese
2:47
product for the next 10 years, 20 years, because as a good
2:51
marketer, I need to have full passion and spend time on that
2:55
specific category of product. I really wanted to manage
3:01
Japanese tradition Japanese products as a Japanese because I
3:04
believe it's pretty much underrated.
3:06
So that was one passion, which is the positive side.
3:10
I want to talk a bit about the negative side.
3:11
The life as a marketer in Procter and Gamble was very
3:15
nice. I could learn a lot, I could
3:17
grow a lot, but at the same time, the pressure on business
3:21
delivery or making good numbers keep on growing myself.
3:24
That was pretty intense. I enjoy it, but sometimes when I
3:28
look at my calendar, it's fully packed.
3:31
And one day I realized it's not that.
3:33
Those meetings are not my will, you know, somebody asked me to
3:35
join and do something for them. So.
3:38
Know the feelings. Thank you.
3:39
Yeah, I think it's a common thing, but it happened to me
3:41
too. So when I do that for 10 years
3:44
plus, I kind of lost. Do I enjoy what do I want to do
3:49
in life? Because it was all about
3:51
managing or kind of answering somebody else's expectation, not
3:56
really following my heart. So when I did that too much, I
4:00
felt maybe from mid SE onwards this is not how I want to work
4:05
for I should discover myself more.
4:08
I want to spend time more on what I really value.
4:11
That's why I just quit. And to be honest, I didn't have
4:14
an intention to start a matchup brand back then.
4:16
I just quit and explored what I wanted to do.
4:19
I was in the library for most of the reading books and talking to
4:24
myself that that was, you know, what I did right after waiting
4:28
the job. And then I met Chano Yu Rasen
4:32
Casado, the tea ceremonies and also them meditation, you know,
4:36
back in the PNG days, sitting still, doing nothing, focusing
4:41
on breathing, right? That's meditation that made no
4:45
sense to me. Like that's so introductive.
4:47
You know, you need to check your e-mail.
4:49
You need to to attend meetings. That was my feeling, but when I
4:52
tried it was very difficult. There's so many mind wandering.
4:56
I couldn't genuinely focus on my breathing.
5:00
So that was interesting and I could subjectively feel what I
5:04
was feeling back then. Sorry, objective, like my
5:09
feelings, my worries. So I felt a big value on this
5:14
meditation and Matcha channel you saddle the tea ceremonies
5:19
have a background of Zen Buddhism and it has a
5:22
similarities on those philosophies.
5:24
That's why I really went into it.
5:27
I kept on practicing and Mata became my life work and that's
5:32
when I wanted to start my own brand Zenki Mata.
5:36
That's the brief story of myself.
5:39
Very cool. Thank you Total. 180 from like
5:42
I'm sure very corporate, high paced world Tokyo living to much
5:47
more introspective and kind of looking in not out.
5:51
It's a very, really interesting story.
5:54
It's also in a sense very you know, in in kind of like echoing
6:00
with how a lot of the warlords and summarize back in the day
6:03
see shelter, you know, through them Buddhism and channel you
6:06
and seek their inner peace. This is very cool.
6:10
Yeah, as long as I said my interest is in that area.
6:13
I might talk a bit more later, but those interesting
6:17
philosophies of Zen and summarize Channel U is very
6:21
underrated. In Japan, we don't care about it
6:24
much, especially my generation. So I think that's a very sad
6:28
thing for the world. It's very unique, but nobody
6:31
really cares about it. So that's what I want to bring
6:34
to the world as well. It's kind of great to see this
6:37
continuation of thoughts and this kind of mentality of
6:41
seeking inner peace through that Buddhism and China you that
6:45
continues to this days, but there.
6:47
You go, I think the Japanese culture, maybe globally you
6:50
might have thinking that Japanese is hardworking.
6:55
Like we, I don't know how to say we enjoy the corporate career.
7:01
You know, we are very good at answering somebody else's
7:03
expectation and that's how Japan grew in terms of GDP and
7:08
etcetera in back in 1980s and 90s, right?
7:11
Yeah. That time everyone was looking
7:13
for same happiness. Like if I work hard in that big
7:17
company, I earn more money than I can buy car, I can buy a
7:21
house. That was the typical happiness
7:24
back then and it was OK everyone was following that and as long
7:27
as you were there, everyone's happy.
7:29
You get more wealthier. But nowadays, globally, money
7:33
doesn't really bring happiness, right?
7:35
But I feel Japanese are still in that mindset, but their feeling
7:39
is not there. So everyone has a common sense
7:42
as a society thinks you should work hard, you should be in the
7:46
big company, you should do this and that.
7:47
But we are feeling, is this really the happiness I want to
7:51
have in the next few years? So more and more benefit from
7:56
taking time to talk to yourself, thinking about who you are, what
7:59
you enjoy. I think those are more and more
8:01
important everywhere in the world and especially in Japan.
8:04
No, absolutely a very healthy shift, but we're seeing
8:08
everywhere. I think so too.
8:10
Yeah, it's, but it's also interesting that you know like
8:13
nowadays as you said that you don't quite see a lot of
8:17
domestic consumption of matcha within Japan.
8:20
Right. So very bold decision for you to
8:24
get into this realm in the 1st place and also be kind of
8:28
curious like what's your, what's your the reaction from like your
8:32
friend circles or your, yeah. What do your friends think when
8:36
you tell them I'm starting a matcha brand?
8:39
Yeah, yeah. What were they?
8:40
What were their reaction to I? Think that's a great question.
8:43
So first I want to start by sharing.
8:46
Maybe you guys know you're, you're an expert in matcha.
8:48
You know what Japanese is not interested in matcha at all in
8:52
my view. So it's a sad thing.
8:54
But because we are the closest to matcha, to be honest, we have
9:00
many unnecessary biases towards the product based on this
9:05
Channel U and tea ceremony. That's the image of matcha for
9:08
Japanese and it has a negative bias of it's very complicated,
9:13
it's super formal, so negative bias that everyone here has.
9:17
Hence I talked to some matcha lovers overseas.
9:21
They come to Japan and get shocked, you know, because
9:24
matcha cafes are only in the tourist location, not in the
9:29
Japanese places and when they talk to Japanese friends and so
9:33
it's much at home nobody has Justin, I think.
9:36
And to be honest I didn't know any matcha brands when I before
9:40
entering this category so I have never heard about it They.
9:46
Don't do. That's interesting.
9:47
Yeah, and I'm pretty sure most of my friends are the same.
9:51
But to answer your question, because of that bias, when I
9:55
first said I'm going to do Matcha brand, everyone was like,
9:58
what? That's an outdated thing, That's
10:00
a product for grandparents. What are you going to do with
10:03
it? That's kind of the reduction.
10:04
Nowadays, it's getting different because the global demand, as
10:09
you may know, is super high. There's a lot of news going on
10:13
here too. So some people who are close to
10:16
the news, they know globally it's a big trend and they
10:19
understand why I'm doing this from the business.
10:22
But the first reaction is always very negative to be honest and
10:26
more thing. Exactly.
10:31
None this why? Yeah.
10:35
One more thing is it's my my viewpoint, but this Zen Buddhism
10:39
or religion related topic is somewhat taboo in Japan.
10:44
I think it's one of the countries where Christianity has
10:48
a lowest percentage in the world.
10:50
I think it's less than 2% or something like that.
10:53
So most of the Japanese don't don't have a religion.
10:56
And we do have another negative bias because there's a lot of
11:00
shocking news caused by a small religion groups that did
11:04
something bad to the. Society.
11:06
Yeah, the terrorist. Kind of yeah, trauma is there,
11:10
talking about Zen or Buddhism, some people don't really like.
11:14
So I'm working on this a little bit of controversial area.
11:18
That's my best. So it's easier for me to talk to
11:21
overseas person like you, to talk to Japanese.
11:24
I need to choose my words. And if somebody has a negative
11:28
bias, I cannot convince that person that that sounds like a
11:32
good business. So that's a little bit of, but
11:34
these days, especially the younger generation, they're more
11:37
open minded. So it's getting.
11:39
So in founding the company in the very early days, or maybe
11:43
when it was just an idea, you, I guess you could have two
11:45
choices. You could pursue the domestic
11:47
market and do sort of a contemporary matcha ritual for
11:51
Japanese people, or you could focus on the international
11:54
market. So how did you decide which to
11:57
do and what was that thought process?
11:59
And did you ever consider focusing on the domestic market
12:02
or is it just there's too many cultural carriers pre consumed,
12:06
you know, ideas about fixed ideas about what much I should
12:10
be and it would be too difficult to do?
12:12
Right, thanks for the question. Because I come from the
12:15
marketing background, I approached in a marketing or
12:19
consumer based way. My style is always consumer
12:22
based, how we can fulfill the potential needs.
12:24
So at the beginning, I was open to any consumers.
12:28
And my first approach is doing more interviews and searching,
12:32
doing some research on the market, Japan market shrinking.
12:35
And when I talk to consumer, the reaction is exactly what I
12:38
shared. Nobody really cared about
12:40
matcha. And also when I look at the
12:43
market, there's so many good competitors, very nice
12:46
competition. Of course, the Mata lover like
12:48
Marik, Mariku Kwamayan or Ecpodo and those big, big legendary
12:53
companies were there. I had zero knowledge.
12:56
But the more I research them, they do produce a very nice
12:59
product in a very reasonable price here in Japan.
13:01
Yeah, absolutely. But the competition will be
13:03
harder. The market is shrinking.
13:06
I couldn't crack the insight of consumers to newly start having
13:11
matcha at home. On the other side, when I talked
13:14
to the foreigner known Japanese outside of Japan, there's a
13:17
huge, I was interviewing like one year before, but there was a
13:21
huge, huge interest towards matcha.
13:24
I was shocked that everyone first knows Matcha, right, But
13:28
that's amazing thing. I didn't know everybody knows.
13:31
And when I talked to Ryan, for example, you were sharing this,
13:33
you know, maybe in this podcast, how that your podcast is one of
13:36
a good information source for me to understand what's happening
13:40
outside of Japan. But I think you're sharing a
13:42
story of, you know, Starbucks and Chile or somewhere was
13:46
having much a lot. And so I was shocked with that
13:49
story as well and found out similar things are going on
13:53
everywhere. So there's a very good potential
13:56
that more and more consumer might enjoy having much at home
14:00
in the near future. And when I check the market
14:04
using your podcast as well, I felt there's a lot of how to say
14:10
the product quality is not always good inside of Japan.
14:15
It's a big mix. Yeah, right, right.
14:18
And I heard there's many how to say brands that's not so thing a
14:21
good thing of maybe not from Kyoto, but they say they're from
14:24
Kyoto. Those stories I found, yeah.
14:27
So there's a huge gap on the demand and the supply side.
14:32
So that's where I found some opportunity for me to help.
14:38
Interesting. That's awesome.
14:39
Very cool actually. So out of my own curiosity, so
14:43
because we have talked to a lot of, you know, Western brand
14:47
owners who came to Japan and tried to source tea, you tried
14:50
to find tea and for them, you know, it comes with a lot of
14:54
difficulties in terms of like cultural and language barriers.
14:58
Like how was your experience as a Japanese, you know, younger
15:01
Japanese generation not try to source tea, you source matcha
15:05
like in all of these, you know, very traditional tea production
15:08
regions like Kyoto. It was tough for me as well.
15:11
Two, to be honest, I think it's easier than non Japanese to be
15:15
honest, because I can communicate at least.
15:18
But it was still tough. I think it was because I entered
15:21
the market a little bit late, you know.
15:24
So when I did the negotiation was one year before.
15:27
Back then there was already a lot of foreigners in total.
15:32
It's trying to source like, you know, I went to this tea much
15:35
tour and everyone was non Japanese.
15:38
And after that tour everyone was trying to do a business meeting
15:41
with that tea farm owner, you know, Hey, I'm a cafe, can you
15:45
source me? So those kind of negotiation was
15:48
happening already everywhere in Total tea farms.
15:51
Interesting. So for me it was a little bit
15:54
difficult already. So I went to many farms, but
15:57
some didn't really listen to me, but at least I could find a good
16:01
partner. I'm very confident about taste
16:04
that they offer. So I was lucky.
16:07
That's it. It was still difficult and I
16:09
think I'm hearing it's getting even difficult.
16:12
Most of the suppliers cannot fill the order of the existing
16:16
customers. So days they're still being any
16:20
new contracts. So it's going to be even.
16:22
Difficult. That's crazy even for you.
16:25
Right. But I think, you know, I enjoy
16:28
the journey and I think the category will have a lot of
16:32
innovations. I think you guys are one of the
16:34
runners there, right? You're trying to bring a new
16:37
solution to this situation right now.
16:39
There's so many on productivity. Some people in the industry is
16:43
trying to innovate. So it's going to be a very, very
16:46
interesting category for the next few years, I believe.
16:49
Yeah, we're excited too. A lot of opportunities, right?
16:53
For example, I think linking to what you guys are doing, but
16:56
when I talked to the farmers in Kyoto, they were saying like,
17:00
hey, we are short in much of supply and I was just
17:02
interviewing them why that's happening.
17:04
At the end of the day, the root cause was stone mill
17:08
productivity. It's not about the leaf.
17:10
You know, they have the leaf, but the factory who owns the
17:13
stone mill is super packed. They cannot make the powder.
17:16
And as you know, stone mill, one hour, 40g, right?
17:20
So that's the difficult part. Sometimes that becomes a root
17:24
cause, not the tea leaf. It's an interesting thing.
17:26
So then how can we make the stone meal production more
17:31
efficient without sacrificing the flavor and taste?
17:35
I think that's a big business question.
17:36
Yeah. Yeah, we're working on it.
17:39
Yeah, I'm very excited about this.
17:42
We're excited. It's a crazy bottleneck actually
17:45
that there's not better solutions for milling and that
17:49
it's such a protected craft because we were even hearing
17:51
recently that even just the maintenance on Ishiusu
17:54
commercial, Ishiusu is like another gigantic bottleneck in
17:58
that not only do not find stonemasons to come, you know,
18:01
refinish the stones, but the machines break.
18:04
Like it's a bit complicated to fix and usually you have to
18:08
hire, bring back the company that you sourced it from to do
18:11
the repairs, which can take forever.
18:14
So it's an unfortunate bottleneck.
18:17
That's true. That's true.
18:18
Yeah. So trying to own them stone mill
18:21
outside of Japan is going to be very, very difficult from that.
18:24
You have to be very brave, Yeah. So how did you go about like
18:29
selecting what you wanted to source and what you wanted to
18:35
like offer from like a a skew or product kind of lens?
18:39
Thank you. First and foremost about the
18:42
Matcha product, because I come outside of the industry, my
18:47
single biggest criteria is it has to taste good.
18:51
The taste is everything. There are many factors, right?
18:54
Single origin, blend, stone mill, organic, first harvest.
18:59
There are many, many things that besides the product, but the
19:03
important thing is it has to taste good.
19:05
And I came to that because when I interviewed the overseas
19:09
matcha lovers, they had the similar taste preferences as
19:14
Japanese. So it was a big finding for me
19:16
that good matcha, the good taste of matcha is similar.
19:21
That taste is similar. They don't want bitterness, they
19:23
want a little bit of money. Those things were really
19:26
similar. That was very encouraging.
19:28
So I had to trust my feeling and some of my company members
19:32
feeling and select the best matcha that has a good taste.
19:37
Another weird story about Japan tea industry is I think it's
19:42
similar to Japan craftsmanship, a go to extreme that they
19:46
consumer is not there. They just go too extreme.
19:49
Yeah. And one, one thing for tea is
19:52
that tea farmers and the blenders, they try to make umami
19:58
as much as possible. That's for the green tea
20:00
industry. And when they value the grade of
20:04
the tea leaf, this is including sensor and more about sensor
20:07
actually. But the more umami you have, the
20:09
more higher grade you get. So there's no consumers.
20:12
And when I as a consumer, when my generation drink that super
20:17
umami sensor that costs super high, it doesn't taste good.
20:21
It's like too too strong amino acid.
20:24
It's like I I feel like I'm how to say like drunk or not
20:28
something like that. It.
20:29
Doesn't feel good. So maybe you should try.
20:31
But so that's the key industry. So it doesn't mean higher grade
20:37
or the, the, the industry evaluation that didn't matter
20:41
for me. It's all about how we feel, the
20:43
consumer feels. And I was lucky to work with one
20:47
very nice blender in Choto to share the same philosophy as me.
20:52
He doesn't care about like hand picking, for example.
20:55
Hand picking will increase the cost significantly.
20:58
And that person, his expertise is how to blend different matcha
21:03
tea leaves and come up with a very tasty one with not the
21:07
crazy price. So it was his philosophy and I
21:11
really like that one. And I believe we found a very,
21:13
very nice matcha product which Ryan I think he tried.
21:17
I did. It's very good.
21:20
That was very interesting. That was really.
21:22
Some for me, Ryan. Yeah, I know.
21:24
I will, I will. Another product I have is not
21:28
this special, but it's good to have as such a as well.
21:32
But when I interviewed consumers, you know, cow milk is
21:37
the main milk here in Japan. But when I interviewed outside
21:39
of Japan, milk is number 1. And there are various milks like
21:44
pistachos, almond, soy, and it all has a very unique character,
21:49
which the high grade matcha doesn't blend good, good enough
21:53
to be honest. How do you say implicated umami
21:57
sensitive umami disappears because the milk's flavor is too
22:00
strong. So we created one product
22:03
specializing for a latte and it has to have a very strong matcha
22:08
taste that doesn't that blends well with the milk.
22:11
So that was a philosophy of blending that product and I made
22:14
sure the grams is bigger because for that there 3 grams, 4 grams
22:19
is better in taste. So those are some of them.
22:22
The. Same number of servings per bag.
22:25
Exactly, exactly. So my point is really about the
22:28
taste is #1 priority. We need to make product that
22:32
consumer loves a good one. And one more thing to add is
22:37
because our mission is to elevate matcha from just a drink
22:41
to a ritual for ritual. That's an that whisk is very
22:45
important. And as you may know, there's a
22:48
global shortage or the Japan shortage in Chastain as well,
22:52
the bamboo width. So I had to find some good
22:55
supplier on that area as well. And also even they're pretty
22:59
expensive because it's handcrafted.
23:01
How can I have my customers enjoy this whisking without
23:06
purchasing this expensive? So I came up with paper Justin.
23:11
I searched a lot. I could find a good person.
23:14
He's much a geek. He created this paper Justin by
23:18
himself. It's origami paper.
23:20
And I'm making sure I attach that paper, Justin, to all the
23:25
purchase purchases so that they can start even without the
23:29
bamboo chess. Very cool, very cool.
23:31
I received one in the mail when I got those samples and it was.
23:34
That was so much fun. Just like some joy.
23:38
Of putting that together was I don't know, so next year because
23:42
you get some satisfaction too because it's flat packed so like
23:45
you have to do all the things yourself.
23:48
It's kind of like putting together IKEA furniture is like.
23:51
Really. I sense of satisfaction that I
23:54
did as part of the craft of making this this tool.
23:57
Yeah. Glad to hear that in this
23:59
process. Question so like some junior and
24:02
I have had some CPG FM, CG experience so like Consumer
24:06
Packaged Goods and things that are ready to eat and ready to
24:09
drink in Japan but used to do quite a bit of work and it was
24:12
from everything from instant soups to ready to drink teas to
24:17
various off the shelf products. And in no country have I ever
24:22
worked in. We have quite a bit of
24:23
international food and beverage experience across every
24:27
continent. Actually.
24:28
I've never seen a more consumer centric culture at the CPG
24:32
level. The companies we worked with
24:34
cared about every single detail and we were specifically on the
24:39
sensory or flavor side. Just like these little tiny
24:42
minute details. They cared about every single
24:45
one and how the consumer thought of it.
24:47
If they liked it, it was good or bad.
24:49
If we removed it, would that alienate some consumers and make
24:53
other consumers love it more? It was actually some of our most
24:56
sophisticated clients were all in worked for consumer packaged
25:00
good Japanese companies and that culture does not seem to have
25:04
touched traditional industries. And as you mentioned with tea
25:07
and with sencha, there is these like really strange assumptions
25:11
that the entire industry operates on about how to
25:15
optimize for quality and it doesn't feel like 1.
25:18
The Japanese consumer is not considered and the international
25:21
consumers like really not considered.
25:24
Like why do you think that is in these traditional industries
25:28
when you do see that consumer centric culture in other parts
25:33
of Japanese industries, It's an interesting.
25:36
Question. I only have a hypothesis.
25:39
So big companies in the tea industry like Itohen, Asahi,
25:43
beer, kidding beer, all those they are good at marketing and
25:48
good at understanding consumer needs.
25:50
I think they learned a lot from the best practices from European
25:54
companies as well because marketing in general in Japan
25:57
was not so strong to be honest. But they catch catched up really
26:01
quickly. Now they are best in class and
26:04
that's what the combination of the attention to details in the
26:08
craftsmanship side. So always the product quality I
26:12
believe is pretty much good in Japan.
26:13
Like when I was in Procter and Gamble, the domestic companies
26:18
are the competition. They are not really big
26:21
globally, but they're super strong in Japan and their
26:23
product is really good. So, you know, that's the quality
26:27
of Japanese big companies, which I think if they could find a way
26:31
to sell globally, can't fly even bigger.
26:34
That's how I feel. But not many Japanese can
26:37
operate in the global environment, unfortunately.
26:40
So that's a big opportunity. Now the traditional side as far
26:44
it's a different world. You know, when I go to tea
26:48
farmers or the Craftsman who makes chats and etcetera, I
26:53
think their motivation is more product oriented.
26:57
They want to create good products, not to fulfill
27:01
consumer needs, but for their pride and stuff.
27:04
So I think umami is 1 big example, right?
27:07
It's not about consumer. They want to make the best umami
27:12
ever. That's their motivation.
27:14
So I think, you know, because they didn't do that too much,
27:17
they couldn't pick up with the consumer trend that that changes
27:21
over time. This one is why the lot of
27:24
traditional Japanese craftsmanship is keep on
27:27
decreasing, like a socket for example.
27:29
It's a good experience. My grandparents was running a
27:34
socket business before the beer and stuff get big in Japan.
27:39
It was Osaka that time. It was OK.
27:41
Every area had their own brands, Osaka, which was very nice
27:44
culture, but they were just focusing on creating good
27:47
product and they couldn't really catch the market shrinkage from
27:51
beer or the alternative coming from the western side, right?
27:55
So now the number of stock care production is keep on
27:58
decreasing. Now they just started trying to
28:01
expand to overseas, but pretty late, you know.
28:05
So I think this consumer centric and marketing is a big
28:10
opportunity for Japan's small businesses, small categories.
28:14
And then once they do that marketing, you get some consumer
28:16
engagement and then you can kind of get some data back about the
28:20
consumer needs and what they're looking for.
28:22
Yeah. Right.
28:25
So I can be a good success model to be honest, you know, because
28:32
of my passion to work on Japanese product, kind of
28:41
explored many areas. Unfortunately some of the
28:43
traditional things like how to say pots and stuff, it's
28:47
sometimes outdated. There's a lot of techniques,
28:50
unique ones going in that, but it's all about how do I use this
28:53
product in everyday life. You know, it's like heavy, you
28:57
need to request a lot of maintenance.
28:59
So those products, unfortunately, I think it's very
29:02
difficult to sell globally. Because it's.
29:05
History, but no benefit. I think benefit matters.
29:08
The other thing that I feel the same way is Japanese kitchen
29:11
knife. It's so nice, so sharp.
29:14
It really requires a lot of maintenance.
29:18
Yeah, yeah. You know, if you take really
29:20
good care of them, like they really performed, but like if
29:23
you being a little bit slack, you know, they get rustic, they
29:26
get like the chip if you end up cutting like bone or for knives,
29:30
they're not supposed to, you know, using it as a cleaver.
29:33
So it's, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah.
29:37
And also especially for tea, I feel like because you know,
29:40
traditionally the consumers, the quote UN quote consumers for
29:44
Japanese matcha, it's not really everyday commoners like us.
29:50
So there's a very different, I guess, quality standard.
29:54
I, I would assume historically that kind of cascade down to,
29:59
you know, nowadays market. That's my, my, my observation.
30:03
I don't know if you feel the same way.
30:05
So design but but definitely we're seeing changes, but it's
30:08
just happening slowly. Yeah.
30:10
My hunch on this matcha is similar as mindfulness.
30:14
Mindfulness, I think the origin is the Asian world like Japan,
30:19
China. But as said, Japan had a little
30:22
bit of negative bias towards that religious stuff.
30:25
So nobody valued those kind of thinking.
30:28
But I think the Western countries found this concept of
30:32
mindfulness and Zen porism. For example, Steve Jobs, Google,
30:36
they are very good at making rationales, a study on the
30:40
benefits, making programs to so that everyone can implement in
30:45
everyday life. And then it came back to Japan.
30:47
We didn't value, but the Western countries valued.
30:50
And we were like, maybe it's a good thing and we did it again.
30:53
So I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen.
30:56
In fact, when I talk to similar generation people and explaining
31:00
all this stuff, they get really interested.
31:02
And some people already tried and they're continuing, you
31:05
know. So I think the welcome right
31:08
now, there's so many negative bias to go.
31:10
So for the lovers who come to Japan, I don't get shocked.
31:14
What is drinking? Matsa and mats of ours are only
31:17
in the tourist place. Wow, you have a very different
31:19
battle to fight Sudis. He picked a very interesting
31:23
path because it's very unusual to have a Japanese founded
31:28
international market facing matcha brand.
31:30
I actually can't think of one that's not like a really old
31:34
traditional house. Any matcha companies that are
31:37
Japanese rounded contemporary brands?
31:40
Right, right. And I enjoy really like I get
31:43
orders from unexpected countries, which is really fun
31:46
you know and I can have BTC good thing is I can interact directly
31:50
with consumers. Those are really fun and I by
31:54
myself, I am believing I share the same vision as you guys.
31:58
I understand you guys are trying to bring freshly ground matcha
32:01
to the world, right? And it might be different, but I
32:04
feel the same and much high quality matcha is really good.
32:08
It's a life changing thing. So I hope I can bring that as
32:12
much as possible. And I worked on the logistics
32:14
first, you know, to enable the global shipping much.
32:17
A good thing is it's light and it's small, so it's easier than
32:23
the good Japanese food like fish, sushi or fruits.
32:28
That's going to be very difficult.
32:29
But Mata is easier relatively. So I believe there's a big
32:33
opportunity. No doubt, yeah.
32:35
Where have you seen the most uptick in business
32:39
internationally speaking? Is it mostly coming from the US
32:42
or from Europe or from from other markets?
32:44
And also, what is the most surprising country that reached
32:48
out to you? Oh yeah, 2 GB.
32:50
Yeah, it was interesting. As expected.
32:52
US was big. By the way, I recently started,
32:55
so it's a small business still, but US was big first, Europe was
32:59
OK, but nowadays I see the Middle East picking up really
33:03
rapidly. Middle East, very interesting.
33:08
I have to learn more in this area, but Middle East, Saudi
33:11
Arabia, UAE, those are big, big orders and interesting countries
33:18
which I really enjoy seeing in the Google map is like, you
33:21
know, movies, Cyprus. Cyprus, OK.
33:28
Those are interesting, yeah, countries, but I'm seeing it is
33:32
actually a worldwide content. Yeah.
33:35
I think the Middle East market is actually very underserved at
33:38
the moment. We've gotten a lot of outreach
33:42
from people in the Middle East and it's because their cafe
33:45
culture is so strong. And you know, you have people
33:49
hanging out at coffee shops as sort of at a third place
33:51
because, you know, they're primarily, they don't drink
33:54
alcohol. So like a lot of the social
33:56
interactions are happening at cafes, which stay open until
33:59
like 2:00 AM. We used to do, I used to do a
34:02
lot of work in Dubai and I was just shocked at the quality and
34:06
the experience of cafes there. And I remember seeing some
34:11
matcha, but it really feels like I haven't been back in a few
34:15
years, but it really feels like it's picking up because people
34:18
want something that's a little healthier and a more balanced
34:21
energy profile. And we have yet to have seen
34:25
someone really come in and own that market from from a brand.
34:30
There's small, a couple small regional players, but it seems
34:33
that there it's a very underserved market at the
34:35
moment, yeah. Even in places like Egypt, there
34:39
are like 3-4 new, like Matcha Cafe just popped out in Cairo.
34:45
Like in the past one or two years, I, I've been using Cairo
34:48
as my kind of the point of the transfer, you know, flying
34:51
between Asia and the US and yeah, it's like really blooming
34:56
right now. Interesting.
34:59
Yeah, it's fun to. Yeah, yeah.
35:02
It's big opportunity. It's fun to be in this industry,
35:05
really. It is, I mean, and like to set
35:09
the pace right in like these emerging markets because it's
35:13
like the first players that come in and like those narratives
35:17
that end up winning because like I think in some markets, we just
35:20
talked with someone from the Philippines and a lot of local
35:23
players are mislabeling matcha. That's not even matcha fake
35:27
green tea powder. It has additives.
35:30
It's a very different battle because consumers are already
35:33
aware of what matcha is. They've been tasting this fake
35:36
product. That fake product becomes their
35:38
reality, right? And now you have to do all of
35:42
this work from all of these brands reintroducing what matcha
35:48
actually is. And it's the opportunity to get
35:52
it right in these emerging markets that are just beginning
35:55
to like, want. Matcha is so high.
35:57
And if the Japanese market doesn't fill it, then like China
36:02
will, Indonesia will, Vietnam will.
36:05
Thailand, I know in Chiang Rai, they're making some very,
36:08
there's some joint venture with a Japanese company up in
36:11
Northern Thailand making something that's sort of like
36:14
matcha. The color doesn't indicate it,
36:18
but like these are like the opportunity exists, but it's
36:23
really important that they get good supply early on.
36:27
Yeah. So that people can form a real
36:30
preference for the real thing, not for.
36:33
I don't want to call it a fake thing, but for something that
36:35
really is not what most people would consider matcha.
36:38
I agree. I agree.
36:40
I think you know, yeah, I wish everyone can have a chance to
36:43
taste the real high quality matcha and that's my wish and
36:48
your wish as well. And I was inspired by your
36:51
conversation on calling it as a speciality matcha and your
36:55
reference on the wine, coffee, how Japanese government can do a
37:00
better job in this area. I totally agree.
37:02
I have to catch up on this area. But right now there's no rule at
37:06
all on definition of matcha, how to grade, what ceremonial means,
37:11
etcetera. So those are interesting
37:14
conversation that I hope will come up because nowadays
37:18
everyone can talk about, hey, I'm matcha, I'm ceremonial, I'm
37:21
from Japan, etcetera. So.
37:25
Even like from Japan is not like safe either.
37:28
Like we've heard like people like start mailing, like Sancho
37:32
Gokul, and it's not much. Either right, right.
37:39
It's very complicated right now. Yeah, yeah.
37:42
It's easy to make a powder, so they do a lot of.
37:48
Yeah, yeah. But like, once you've tried the
37:50
real thing, like, it's a big difference, I guess the product
37:54
itself will, you know, tell the story by the end of the day.
37:58
I hope so. Or they just invent a new
38:00
category. I mean, imagine a gokharo latte,
38:03
like a few powder gokharo like you do matcha and it's like a
38:06
big white space open field like that.
38:09
I would like order a gokharo latte just to taste it and maybe
38:13
you can do something to make it taste good.
38:15
But like, trying to pass that off as matcha is just praying on
38:18
people's ignorance, Yeah. Bastardizing the name of Matcha.
38:23
Yeah, but what could be a very interesting product on its own,
38:27
like it's, you know, just don't call it what it's not.
38:31
Like hochicha powder that tastes good.
38:33
Yeah, yeah. Hochicha is said to be next
38:36
trend after matzo. That's what I'm hearing.
38:39
Yeah, that's what we can do. I haven't feel that much, but
38:42
let's see. What's your personal preference
38:45
on hochicha and hochicha powder? Do you like it?
38:47
Yeah, I have one product actually as well, OK, liquid
38:51
stems, which has a lot of umami premium Mojija powder.
38:56
I like it, especially it has low caffeine as you know.
38:58
So in the evenings and the ritual, the process is same.
39:02
So I like it, but it's for that day really.
39:06
That's what I felt. I just in many things it's not
39:08
good to drink at its own. It's not that good.
39:12
But when you blend with milk, it is really good.
39:14
It's similar to coffee, like the roasted process, so maybe for
39:20
beginners it might be easier to enter the market.
39:23
Yeah, it's a nice bridge product.
39:25
Right. And it's more reasonable pricing
39:28
versus matcha, so? That too.
39:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this sort of is, is one last
39:35
question, love to know what your future plans are that your
39:39
company this coming year and into the future like what's
39:43
what, what's your, your growth plans and how would you like to
39:47
see the industry changes as we all move into the future
39:50
together? I think we have discussed but I
39:53
just started the business and I'm enjoying the journey so far.
39:57
Our brand is rooted in the good product and the ritual making
40:02
much process a good moment to pause in busy daily life.
40:07
I forgot to tell this but when I interviewed.
40:09
Matcha lovers who make matcha at home, I asked them, who do you
40:14
drink matcha first? They say it's for health
40:17
benefits. I like the color, I like taste.
40:19
But when I say you like the process of making it?
40:22
And they were like, I haven't thought about it, but I realized
40:27
that's where I value the most for carving out sometime in the
40:31
morning. That's the calm down, enjoying
40:34
matcha that whisking and the drinking process they enjoy.
40:38
So I'm very confident that this can be a new habit to everyone
40:41
is busy. Everyone is might be tired,
40:43
overwhelmed, but matcha has the power to pause.
40:47
Zen QS Q it's meaning pause. So there's in Japanese.
40:51
I want to create moment to pause through the matcha preparation
40:54
and drinking good or bad matcha, you have to drink it after you
40:57
whisk. You know, you cannot let it
40:59
there because the taste will be bad.
41:01
So I want to make this new habit as much as possible.
41:04
I wish I can through that process, I wish I can contribute
41:07
to everyone's health and mindfulness, which is very
41:10
important in the life today. That's my vision.
41:15
Of course, I want more and more people to try our brand and this
41:19
whisking process. So that's what I'm trying to do
41:23
this wise. I don't know.
41:25
I I'm thinking of opening some stores or collaboration with
41:31
cafes I'm still exploring or maybe like my.
41:36
Elsewhere in Japan or else. Anywhere in Japan maybe first,
41:41
but the the focus for me is I started online but I want to
41:49
make a place where people can experience a brand experience, a
41:53
whiskey and that can be cafes, hotels.
41:56
I'm still considering, but I hope I can make some good plans
41:59
and good collaboration. That's awesome.
42:01
That's awesome. Yeah.
42:02
Really helps kind of extend the reach and the leverage.
42:05
It's when we all work together and partner, especially getting
42:08
into places that, you know, matcha wouldn't normally be too.
42:12
So it's exciting. And we really hope to see like
42:15
more and more younger generation Japanese persons, people like
42:18
you, Sujisa, to join this this journey with us.
42:22
Yeah, I hope. You guys are really the future
42:25
of Japanese matcha. Yeah, I, I was, you know,
42:30
wondering because it's a big trend, you know, globally it was
42:34
anticipating more and more young generation to enter the category
42:37
post. Not so much, to be honest.
42:39
I I'm just checking the press releases in Japan, not so many.
42:43
I hope you become a success model for to inspire others.
42:46
Make matcha cool. Yeah, yeah.
42:51
And people will join that's. Awesome.
42:52
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
42:54
It was great. It was great talking great
42:57
learning the story and you you have a really good product and
42:59
it's really like well priced for the quality.
43:02
It's having tried it myself, I really have been enjoying it.
43:06
Thank you so much. No, thank you so much for having
43:08
me. It was my one of my dreams when
43:10
I started the Mata brand to join this podcast.
43:14
Wow, really? I hope I can come again and
43:18
share some even more interesting stories.
43:21
So I'll do myself, of course. Yeah, anytime.
43:23
Nice to have you back on and hopefully we can meet in Tokyo.
43:26
I'm sure Sam and I will be there maybe if not this year, early
43:29
next year sometime. Yeah, let.
43:31
Me know, let me know. Awesome.
43:32
Well, thanks so much for coming on to our listeners.
43:35
Thank you so much for listening. And if you enjoyed it, please
43:37
consider sharing it with a friend and we'll see you in the
43:39
next one. Thanks.
43:40
See you in the future.