Latest / The Trauma Therapist / From the archives: Every 90 Seconds with Anne DePrince, PhD

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From the archives: Every 90 Seconds with Anne DePrince, PhD · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Today we even another episode from the archives with one
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  Speaker 1: of my incredible guests. Enjoy. Welcome to the Trauma Deriver's podcast,
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  Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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  Speaker 1: have experienced trauma. My name is got macpherson and my
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  Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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  Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us. All right,
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  Speaker 1: and we are ready to do this. You ready? I
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  Speaker 1: am okay? So five four, three, two and one. All right, folks,
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  Speaker 1: welcome back to the Trauma Therivers Podcast. Got my person
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  Speaker 1: here and I am very excited. Happens my guest today,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor and the Prince, and welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me guy, it's great to be here.
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  Speaker 1: You are welcome. So Anna, as a psychologist, distinguished university professor,
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  Speaker 1: and expert in intimate violence who believes change is possible,
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  Speaker 1: she invites you to discover your self interest in working
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  Speaker 1: together to end violence against women and girls. Doctor the
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  Speaker 1: Prince has worked closely with victim service providers, police prosecutors
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  Speaker 1: and policymakers over more than two decades of research, an
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  Speaker 1: internationally recognized expert and violence against women and studies the
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  Speaker 1: impact of multiple forms of violence against women, sexual assault,
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  Speaker 1: domestic violence, sex trafficking, adolescent dating, violence on a range
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  Speaker 1: of outcomes from health and economic well being to education
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  Speaker 1: and safety. Her book is out it's called Every ninety Seconds,
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  Speaker 1: and we will definitely talk about that and welcome, thank you.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So before we go in here, share with
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  Speaker 1: our listeners where you are from originally and where you
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  Speaker 1: are now.
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  Speaker 2: I'm originally from Verona, New Jersey, and I made my
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  Speaker 2: way across the country for graduate school at the University
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  Speaker 2: of Oregon and then landed in Denver, Colorado, at the
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  Speaker 2: University of Denver.
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  Speaker 1: Cool. All right, awesome, Well, let's dive into this here.
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  Speaker 1: So a very intense topic obviously, How the heck did
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  Speaker 1: you get into this field?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, what a great question. I have been passionate about
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  Speaker 2: this field since college. I was someone who went off
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  Speaker 2: to college with a passion for discovery quickly a passion
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  Speaker 2: for psychology, and connected that passion with advocacy work I
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  Speaker 2: was doing around sexual assaults, gender and women's issues, and
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  Speaker 2: over time I really sort of leaned into that passion
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  Speaker 2: and that common a nation of trying to think about
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  Speaker 2: how we can use research as a means for social
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  Speaker 2: change to make progress on the very important problem of
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  Speaker 2: violence violence against women.
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  Speaker 1: So what do you to the topic of sexual assault.
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  Speaker 2: So I study sexual assault, domestic violence, as you said
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  Speaker 2: in your intro, a number of different forms of violence
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  Speaker 2: against women. I think in my formative years on a
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  Speaker 2: college campus, of course, sexual assault has persistently been a
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  Speaker 2: pressing issue, and in fact, the estimates of campus sexual
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  Speaker 2: assaults haven't changed in about fifty years. So I think
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  Speaker 2: you were hard pressed to find a generation of young
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  Speaker 2: young women who haven't come through college experiences thinking or
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  Speaker 2: connecting in some way to the issue. So that was
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  Speaker 2: certainly one of the first entry points in terms of
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  Speaker 2: a growing political and scientific awareness of the problem of
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  Speaker 2: campus sexual assault. And then I was able to build
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  Speaker 2: that interest over time and see how it's not just
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  Speaker 2: about sexual assault. There are other ways and forms of
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  Speaker 2: intimate violence that impact children, girls and women across the lifespan.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I can't help but bring up the topic
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  Speaker 1: of the Chohnny Depp and Amber Heard trial that's going on.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know if you're following that at all, but
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  Speaker 1: I have been, and from someone who is interested in
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  Speaker 1: psychology and more specifically trauma, it's very very interesting, and
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  Speaker 1: it's very interesting to hear people's responses, lay people's responses
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  Speaker 1: to it, and I'm wondering if you want to comment
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  Speaker 1: on it at all in any capacity, And that's fine
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  Speaker 1: if you don't.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think you know not so much this
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  Speaker 2: case in particular. But when cases break through into our
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  Speaker 2: into public awareness and grab headlines, I think there are
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  Speaker 2: some and patterns that we see. We see a sort
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  Speaker 2: of vilifying of women, a question of what do they
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  Speaker 2: gain by making these allegations, and the assumption that there
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  Speaker 2: sort of is something to be gained. I think we
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  Speaker 2: also quickly are sort of pulled into a narrative that
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  Speaker 2: it's about the issue is about people who abuse and
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  Speaker 2: people who are abused, when really violence against women is
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  Speaker 2: a problem for all of us in terms of the
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  Speaker 2: kinds of consequences it has in our communities and in
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  Speaker 2: our lives. And I think we can end up with
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  Speaker 2: some false dichotomies too that come out in this case
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  Speaker 2: where it becomes about commenting on this case in particular,
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  Speaker 2: but questions in this case around can men be victims
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  Speaker 2: of abuse as well? And they certainly can, And in
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  Speaker 2: my work, by focusing on women, it's not at all
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  Speaker 2: to take away from the experience of boys and men
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  Speaker 2: who experience who've been abused. But rather it's to draw
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  Speaker 2: attention to this particular aspect of the problem of intimate violence.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, but certainly on a more specific level. It
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  Speaker 1: it is oftentimes about someone who is abusing someone else.
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  Speaker 1: And isn't it fair to say that women are more
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  Speaker 1: proportionally victims of intimate partner violence.
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  Speaker 2: It's not only fair, it's scientifically accurate. So absolutely, And
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  Speaker 2: you know that was part of my passion behind the
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  Speaker 2: book that you mentioned that after all these years of
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  Speaker 2: trying to build awareness around the problem of violence against women,
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  Speaker 2: still about every ninety seconds, it's a lot. It's actually
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  Speaker 2: a little bit quicker than that. About every ninety seconds
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  Speaker 2: the woman is actually assaulted another one is victimized by
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  Speaker 2: an intimate partner and violence, no intimate violence knows no
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  Speaker 2: bounds of gender or different identities. But women and girls
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  Speaker 2: are victimized the most more frequently than boys.
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  Speaker 1: And men, right, and it is it scientifically proven that
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  Speaker 1: those perpetrators are more often than.
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  Speaker 2: Not male, correct, more often than not.
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  Speaker 1: What is going on? I mean, I'm shocked to hear
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  Speaker 1: you say, speaking about the campus situation, that things haven't
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  Speaker 1: changed in fifty years.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is shocking. And you know, I think you
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  Speaker 2: can look at research on different forms of violence, and
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  Speaker 2: we have seen gains of percentage points here and there.
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  Speaker 2: We're seeing other forms of violence on the increase in
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  Speaker 2: the last few years. So, for example, intimate partner homicides
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  Speaker 2: seem to be ticking up. But when you look at
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  Speaker 2: the whole of violence against women, I don't find compelling
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  Speaker 2: evidence that we're in a lot better situation than we
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  Speaker 2: were many years ago. And so what I've been thinking
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  Speaker 2: a lot about when when you say you're shocked and
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  Speaker 2: how are we here, is that we have a lot
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  Speaker 2: more awareness, in fact more awareness than probably at any
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  Speaker 2: other point in his about the scope of the problem.
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  Speaker 2: And it can feel like awareness is enough to cause change,
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  Speaker 2: and it's just not. And so we have to sort
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  Speaker 2: of figure out as communities a different way to approach change,
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  Speaker 2: recognizing that awareness is essential and it's not enough.
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  Speaker 1: I was listening to I have been following this trial,
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  Speaker 1: the Amber Heard and the Johnny Tile trial, and I
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  Speaker 1: have been listening to a YouTube show with a panel
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  Speaker 1: of lawyers who were commenting on it, and it was
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  Speaker 1: men and women, and it was very interesting, and I
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  Speaker 1: guess I was a better word shocked to hear their
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  Speaker 1: responses and attitude towards her and kind of echoing what
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  Speaker 1: you were saying. You know, how could she uh recall everything?
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  Speaker 1: How could she recall all these details? How why would
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  Speaker 1: she be saying these Like really, I couldn't believe why.
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  Speaker 1: They just seemed so like against her, Like what is she?
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  Speaker 1: Why is she saying this? You know? And it's and
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  Speaker 1: I'm thinking to myself, you know, here's someone I know,
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  Speaker 1: I know something about trauma and can allow for the
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  Speaker 1: variegations in someone's memory and responses. But man, it's it's
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  Speaker 1: it's kind of scary to me.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what's happening to somebody high profile with
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  Speaker 2: a lot of you know, cultural power, uh and privilege.
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  Speaker 2: Imagine what happens to women who come forward every day
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  Speaker 2: without that power and privilege. And I think what you're
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  Speaker 2: really getting at, guys, that we have a very narrow
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  Speaker 2: way that we as a society tolerate victims and survivors.
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  Speaker 2: To behave you have to remember enough, not too much,
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  Speaker 2: and not too little. You have to show the right
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  Speaker 2: amount of affect, not seem too numbed out or too emotional.
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  Speaker 1: And they were commenting on that too.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and so you know, Chanelle Miller in her
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  Speaker 2: book about Surviving sexual assault described it as needing to
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  Speaker 2: be the perfect victim. And these things have real world
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  Speaker 2: consequences when you look at studies that have been done,
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  Speaker 2: for example, of processing of police reports of rape. When
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  Speaker 2: when sexual assault allegations don't fit into our myths about
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  Speaker 2: sexual assault and about how a victim should behave, it's
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  Speaker 2: less likely that victims are taken seriously. That can have
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  Speaker 2: an impact one to one when people disclose, when they're
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  Speaker 2: met more with skepticism and disbelief than with responses around
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  Speaker 2: how can I support you? What do you need?
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  Speaker 1: You said that, you know, we have these kind of beliefs.
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  Speaker 1: There are these myths, Why do they exist? How do
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  Speaker 1: they help us?
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  Speaker 2: That's a really interesting question. I think some people, for example,
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  Speaker 2: psychiatrists Judith Herman in her Landmark book Trauma and Recovery
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  Speaker 2: talked about this tension between perpetrators and victims and that
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  Speaker 2: essentially all perpetrators ask of us is that we look away.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't cost us anything, or it doesn't seem to
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  Speaker 2: cost us anything to look away. But what victims ask
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  Speaker 2: of us is the world. They ask us to bear
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  Speaker 2: witness to something terrible, to bear witness to sort of
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  Speaker 2: the underbelly of humanity, of what we're capable of doing
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  Speaker 2: to each other. And they don't victims to listen to
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  Speaker 2: a victim and a survivor and authentically respond to what
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  Speaker 2: they're saying. It doesn't allow us to be neutral, and
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  Speaker 2: I think folks are it's uncomfortable, and it's easier to
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  Speaker 2: turn away. It's easier to question a woman's motives and
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  Speaker 2: find ways to write a story that things aren't as
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  Speaker 2: bad as they might seem if we really had to
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  Speaker 2: sit with what happened.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, I've never heard it articulated like that, And
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  Speaker 1: I think that just resonates so powerfully. The perpetrator asks
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  Speaker 1: us to look away? What is that costing us? Really?
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  Speaker 1: It's so easy, right? But wow? And you know you
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  Speaker 1: use the word uncomfortable, I mean, I feel to me
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  Speaker 1: it's just stronger than that. It does speak to the
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  Speaker 1: horror that we're capable of. And some would say each
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  Speaker 1: of us to you know, in our own humanity is
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  Speaker 1: kind of capable of that, but not all of us
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  Speaker 1: perpetrates those kind of things. It's so it's so freaking crazy.
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  Speaker 1: You know. Part of the reason why I started this
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  Speaker 1: podcast was because in one of my former positions, I
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  Speaker 1: was working with young individuals who were showing early signs
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  Speaker 1: of psychosis, and it's part of our job. Each day
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  Speaker 1: we would take these referral calls from parents and teachers
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  Speaker 1: and therapists, and so many of those callers didn't recognize
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  Speaker 1: what could potentially be traumatizing, that bullying could be traumatizing
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  Speaker 1: or wouldn't seem to domestic violence could be traumatizing. And
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  Speaker 1: that was it for me. I was like, this is crazy.
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  Speaker 1: I've got to get out there and do something. If
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  Speaker 1: awareness isn't is maybe just the beginning. Where do we
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  Speaker 1: need to go? How do we help?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that, and I love
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  Speaker 2: the example you offered of realizing that something like witnessing
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  Speaker 2: domestic violence has consequences that ripple out either to a
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  Speaker 2: child's mental health or to other areas of their life.
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  Speaker 2: And I think therein is the answer, an answer of
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  Speaker 2: what do we do about the situation? Because I think
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  Speaker 2: what we have to do is recognize that violence against
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  Speaker 2: women is tangled up with the great public problems of
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  Speaker 2: our time, the things that we're trying to solve now,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's education, access and success, healthcare costs, gun violence.
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  Speaker 2: At the root cause of those problems is violence against women. So,
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  Speaker 2: for example, you use the example of domestic violence. Children
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  Speaker 2: can witness violence perpetrated against a parent of any gender,
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  Speaker 2: most often it's against a mother. And when kids go
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  Speaker 2: into classrooms after witnessing domestic violence, there are consequences. They
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  Speaker 2: have academic problems, they have problems focusing their attention, problems
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  Speaker 2: sitting still, things that can then ripple out and affect
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  Speaker 2: a classroom, and then over time those education impacts can
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  Speaker 2: have an effect on that that child's success later in
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  Speaker 2: school on through to their career. So suddenly we have
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  Speaker 2: a picture of not just something that happened on a
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  Speaker 2: Wednesday night, but things that have uh have a ripple
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  Speaker 2: out to affect our communities, what that child ends up
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  Speaker 2: doing in terms of career, and other things that could
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  Speaker 2: that that that affect our communities. And so it's a
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  Speaker 2: it's a long way of saying I think if we
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  Speaker 2: can begin to bring in allies from other movements to
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  Speaker 2: look at violence against women as something that we share
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  Speaker 2: an interest in working on together, then I think we
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  Speaker 2: have the opportunity to not only discover new solutions, but
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  Speaker 2: also to advocate and organize differently. And that's certainly one
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  Speaker 2: of the lessons we see in social movements and organizing
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  Speaker 2: efforts that if you can bring more people to the
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  Speaker 2: table to see their shared interest in an issue that
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  Speaker 2: they initially thought wasn't their problem, you can get further faster.
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  Speaker 2: There are more wins that are possible.
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  Speaker 1: So theoretically, what would that look like? What could that
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  Speaker 1: look like?
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  Speaker 2: I think that could look like us finding ways to
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  Speaker 2: partner with people in our communities who are interested interested
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  Speaker 2: in gun reform. They may not be thinking about it
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  Speaker 2: through the lens of the number of women who die
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  Speaker 2: at the gun, at a shot from an intimate partner.
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  Speaker 2: They might be thinking about it more in terms of
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  Speaker 2: mass shootings. Well, when you start looking at something like
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  Speaker 2: mass shootings and particularly school shootings, there's among people who
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: carry out those crimes, there's often a common link to
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  Speaker 2: violence against women or misogynistic views of the world. So suddenly,
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  Speaker 2: if we're working together and we're thinking about schools and
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  Speaker 2: gun violence and violence against women, new avenues to affect
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  Speaker 2: change in all of those areas might open up. For example,
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  Speaker 2: what if we really invested in healthy relationship education as
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  Speaker 2: early as possible in young people's trajectory. There's good evidence
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  Speaker 2: that things like talking to young people about gender expectations
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  Speaker 2: and relationships has a positive impact on their relationship development,
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  Speaker 2: their skillfulness, the likelihood that they think it's okay to
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  Speaker 2: beat up each other and assault each other. And so
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  Speaker 2: suddenly you have a different coalition that could work together
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  Speaker 2: to try to get that kind of programming into their
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  Speaker 2: schools and communities. So I think it's looking for coalitions
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  Speaker 2: such as that that transcend a traditional issue area that's
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  Speaker 2: really important.
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  Speaker 1: Why did you write the book every ninety seconds?
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  Speaker 2: I wrote the book because my own research has focused
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  Speaker 2: on violent skins, violence skins women broadly for years, and
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  Speaker 2: I feel like, across milliseconds and memory, you know, synapses
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  Speaker 2: and stories, I and my team have carefully cataloged the
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  Speaker 2: many ways that violence against women is bad, and sometimes
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  Speaker 2: research is necessary to affirm the obvious that it is
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  Speaker 2: not good for an individual's health or our healthcare systems,
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  Speaker 2: for schools, for career achievement, for workplaces. Violence skins women
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  Speaker 2: is not good for any of these things, and I
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  Speaker 2: got to the point because my work does tend to
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  Speaker 2: look at different kinds of outcomes, and I work with
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  Speaker 2: a lot of multidisciplinary teams. I got to the point
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  Speaker 2: of really wanting to help people understand how violence ATNST
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  Speaker 2: women is intersex with so many issues that they care about.
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  Speaker 2: So for people who might think, oh, that's a woman's issue,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not a woman, or that's a special interest issue.
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  Speaker 2: I haven't been abused, and I wouldn't abuse anyone, I've
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  Speaker 2: really wanted them to understand they've got a stake in
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  Speaker 2: us addressing this problem because things they care about will
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  Speaker 2: get better too.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know when I was reading
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  Speaker 1: your bio, it I mean when I when I read
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  Speaker 1: about or hear about violence against women, I mean, for
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  Speaker 1: lack of a better expression, it just makes me so sad.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it just makes me so sad. And I
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  Speaker 1: know there'sviolence against men, and I know you know men
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  Speaker 1: aren't the only perpetrators, but it's we're we're you know
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  Speaker 1: you mentioned creating earlier education opportunities in terms of helping
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  Speaker 1: people young people learn about relationships and healthy relationships. What
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  Speaker 1: are other avenues for education in to help with this.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it's it's about education, it's also
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  Speaker 2: about other resources. So one of the themes I deal
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: with in the book is, you know, there are a
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: lot of ways we could define justice. One way to
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: think about justice is the restoration of safety and choice
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: and the idea that when violence against women is happening
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  Speaker 2: or emerging in a relationship, that kind of the only
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  Speaker 2: choice we often have in communities is to call the police.
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  Speaker 2: That's not a particular choice. We know that things like
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: housing insecurity, economic insecurity, those are factors that can increase
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  Speaker 2: the likelihood of violence against women occurring or reoccurring. So
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  Speaker 2: when we think about possible intervention points, things like people
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  Speaker 2: having access to stable housing, having food security, having support,
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  Speaker 2: career support, these are all violence against women prevention strategies.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Having childcare, having paid time off is a violence prevention strategy.
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  Speaker 2: So if violence happens and somebody, a victim or survivor,
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  Speaker 2: can't take time off to go to court or to
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: get a protection order, for example, we've missed an opportunity
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  Speaker 2: for secondary prevention. And so it's I think it's about
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  Speaker 2: not only the education points, but how do we think
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  Speaker 2: about the values of our societies communities, workplaces, and the
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  Speaker 2: way is that they can be helping people to have
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  Speaker 2: the kind of security that prevents violence.
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  Speaker 1: It's listening to you talk is very interesting because I
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: hear you talking a lot about the systemic UH intervention points,
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  Speaker 1: the ramifications and the effects. And I, for whatever reason,
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: maybe this is in my own because of my own niota,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: but I find myself drawn to UH when thinking about
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  Speaker 1: this issue, this, this, this more specificity, the specifics of
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  Speaker 1: individuals who are committing and perpetrating this violence.
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  Speaker 2: And you're saying, yeah, there's something there for you too,
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  Speaker 2: so and I think where you're getting at and part
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: is we all have to find a place in this movement.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: And what as a psychologist trained to think about individuals,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: part of where I got frustrated with what was I
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: can work with individual individual individual and that's not going
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: to lead to system change. So my own journey has
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: led me to be really interested in a system change piece.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: When you think about individual level change, they are really
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: exciting interventions such as bystander interventions that teach people how
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: to recognize signs and signals for intimate violence, harassment, aggression,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: how to not just recognize those so not just awareness,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: but then what do you do about it? Building up
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: the skills to intervene. So there's a lot that's there
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: for folks too who are interested in working at that
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: individual level, and that's essential. Also.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I want to go back to the college campus. I
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: remember recently, and I think maybe with the last two years,
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: there was a documentary that had just come out, you
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about, which one I'm talking.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: About probably the Hunting Ground, perhaps.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: The Hunting Ground, Yeah, And I was like, what, I mean,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: what is going on? And I mean in these college
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: campuses such that things have a changed a bit to years.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not for you know, I have many
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: colleagues working hard on changing the landscape on college campuses
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: and it's incredibly important work. And as I said, I
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: think we are moving the needle when it comes to awareness,
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: and with awareness come more possibilities, for example, for talking
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: with young people about consent when they get to campus,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: about you know, intersecting health issues, a relationship health and
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: so forth. But college campuses, they've often been a microcosm
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: of our larger world, right, so it's hard to expect
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: college campuses to be different when the larger world around
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: them is one where violence gives women has remained so common.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: So if you look at experiences that young people might
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: have in high school, or things they may see out
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: in popular culture, or you know, all of those influences
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: come with them to college, and so it's a little
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: hard to expect the college environment to differ that much
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: from the world around it.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Well, that's certainly depressing. I mean, I don't want.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: You to get depressed, though, because actually I think there's
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: reason for optimism if we can find ways for people
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: to engage this issue differently through the passion their passions,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: like your passion is to work more individually, and then
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: also to keep bringing in an ever growing network of
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: people who used to think this wasn't their problem or
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: their issue.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: What do you say to and I know you're looking
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: at a probably through a bunch broader lens, but what
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: would you say to women who are listening to this podcast.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I would say to women who are listening to this
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: podcast that if you are a survivor, you are not alone,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: That this is not your problem to solve. That we
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: certainly need survivors centered, trauma informed approaches to change. And
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: this is not a women's issue. This is not a
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: survivor's issue. This is for all of us to decide
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: that we want to build communities that are different from
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: the status quo. And so I would encourage them to
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: think about in their own journey and their passions how
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: working on these issues connects to other passions. But especially
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: for survivors, never through the lens of the responsibility falling
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: on them to call for and push forward social change.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: That has to be all of us.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: In terms of understanding, I know there's an incredible, statistically
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: incredible probably long time between oftentimes when a woman is
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: sexually assaulted to the time she reports. Has that changed
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: over time?
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Well, interestingly, you know, we're sort of back to some
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: of those myths that folks are quite skeptical of women
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: who take a minute to make a choice about whether
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: or not to report to law enforcement. People tend to
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: believe women more if they reported right away, But for
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: lots of women, that's just not how things unfold. It's
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: a big decision to decide to call law enforcement and
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: to enter into for many women a really unknown system.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: They haven't been part of that complex system before. We
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: have seen in the research literature there does seem to
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: be an impact of me too that when you ask.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: For example, there was a study of college students asking
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: using behaviorally defined questions to get at whether people had
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: been sexually assaulted previously, and then using labels like have
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: you been raped, have you been sex actually assaulted? And
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: from before to after? Me too really caught on as
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: a way to build awareness about sexual assault more students
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: who are willing to use those labels. The number of
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: people assaulted hadn't changed, it was just how people were
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: describing and understanding their experience. So that's another way that
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: awareness does shift and create the potential for new action
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: because awareness campaigns such as me too, that movement has
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: really changed people's understanding of their own life stories. Which
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: when you understand your story differently and better, it gives
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: you other new options for action and healing.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: How do you interpret what has been going on culturally
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: with the mecha movement, and certainly with a lot of
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: celebrities and sports stars coming out about their own experiences,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: their own mental health issues and so forth, How, if
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: at all, has this impacted what you're seeing, what the
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: research you're doing, and so forth.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think these movements are incredibly important. So one
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: of the things that my team has looked at over
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: the years is different kinds of thoughts and emotions after traumas,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: such as intimate violence. And one of the most striking
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: things that we've seen is how common or how strongly
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: feelings of alienation after trauma are in terms of being
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: linked to multiple kinds of distress PTSD symptoms postfac stress,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: to sort of symptoms depression, dissociation. And there seems to
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: be something about trauma and the way that it leaves
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: people feeling disconnected and unmoored from themselves and from others
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: that we see in our research, whether we're looking at
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: older adults or adolescents, or survivors of sexual assault or
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: domestic violence, that that alienation is linked with more complicated
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: and more severe distress. So when I think about something
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: like me Too, and part of its power, it's powerful
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: in many ways, but part of its power is I think,
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: to retell the cultural story that people aren't alone. And
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: certainly toront of Burke when she talks about when she
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: started me Too many moons ago before any of us
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: heard it as a hashtag, it was to signal to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: other women me too. I've been assaulted. Also, I've been
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: affected also, and that there's power in that, I think
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: for combating the kind of alienation that's so damaging after trauma.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: So before we close out here, say a little bit
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: more about the book. Who is your target audience? How
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: might this help the therapist listen to the show?
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the book is written for a general audience who's
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: interested in science and how it intersects with thinking about
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: these issues. So it covers a lot of ground in
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: terms of how to understand violence against women as it
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: relates to the big public problems of our time, education, healthcare,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: gun violence, immigration, criminal legal reform, and economic economic justice,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: and through that lens of leaning into the complexity all
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: these places that violence against women gets tangled up with
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: other problems. The book really and I really came out
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: on the other end with a spirit of optimism in
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: the sense that if it's this complicated, it means that
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: we have a lot of ways in we could sit
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: back and be discouraged. It's too complicated. I can't do
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: anything about it. But the flip side of that is
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: we have new alliances we've never tried to build before,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: and so I hope, whether it's therapists or other listeners
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: that the book really is an invitation to think about
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: your place the movement to end violence against women through
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: the issues that you are most passionate about. And the
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: end of the book, which is I think one of
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: my favorite parts of the book, really uses a concept
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: from community organizer Adrian Marie Brown of social change is
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: science fiction. That we are essentially trying to imagine a
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: world none of us has known. None of us has
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: ever known a world without gender violence. And so we
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: could say that's too audacious, we can't imagine that into existence.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: The flip side is that's what social change has always
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: been about, imagining a world that didn't exist, and we
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: are certainly capable of that, particularly if we bring our
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: passions together. So thinking, you know, guy, when you said
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: that it's sort of sad and depressing, it is, and
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: there's incredible potential here, and there's potential for people to
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: show up to this, to a movement for social change
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: in whatever way they'd like. There's there's many open doors,
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: and that's what I take from the complexity of the issue.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: So please move through one of those doors. Is really
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: the invitation of the book.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Well said, definitely, the book is every ninety seconds we're
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: talking with doctor and Prince. What is the best way
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: for people to.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Reach you in You can reach me through my website
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: and the Prince A n n E d E p
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: R I n c E dot com.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, you are certainly inspiring and you're one of
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: those people that I'm so glad are out there doing
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: the work you're doing. It's been a pleasure.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. This has been a wonderful guy.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: All right, take care, bye bye, bye bye.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Today at the Cat
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Building,