Latest / Karl and Crew / Understanding Cultural Christianity with Dr. Samuel Naaman; Being Judgy with Shannon Popkin; and Journey Through Unexpected Pain with Shawna Beyer

Transcript

Understanding Cultural Christianity with Dr. Samuel Naaman; Being Judgy with Shannon Popkin; and Journey Through Unexpected Pain with Shawna Beyer · Karl and Crew

• 0:01
  S1: Coming to you live in studio. It's Carl and Crew
• 0:05
  S1: on Moody Radio.
• 0:07
  S2: He's so happy to have you with us on this
• 0:09
  S2: Wednesday morning. We've had so much fun exploring these different
• 0:13
  S2: phrases that are so commonly used, put out there, offered
• 0:18
  S2: up sometimes as biblical truth. But are they biblical? We've
• 0:22
  S2: been separating fact from fiction. One of the cool things
• 0:25
  S2: that we got to introduce to you yesterday was a
• 0:28
  S2: quiz that we heard back from Doctor Drew Dickens. And
• 0:33
  S2: I know, like, what is going on. Yeah. So many
• 0:36
  S2: people taking this quiz and it's just a fun way
• 0:38
  S2: to test your own knowledge. Is it in the Bible?
• 0:42
  S2: Is it not? Is it close but not quite.
• 0:44
  S3: Watch. Yes. Watch that verbiage.
• 0:46
  S2: That's the one that keeps getting me. I've taken this
• 0:48
  S2: quiz probably 4 or 5 times now to try to
• 0:51
  S2: get a high score, and I think I've topped out
• 0:53
  S2: at about 13 because those close. But not quite.
• 0:56
  S3: Exactly.
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  S2: Keep tripping me up.
• 0:57
  S3: That's what got me.
• 0:59
  S2: So it's a series of questions. He used AI to
• 1:02
  S2: help put it together. And you are given a phrase
• 1:05
  S2: or an idea and you have to identify is that
• 1:07
  S2: in Scripture? Yes. It's there. It's close. Maybe the idea
• 1:11
  S2: is they're not quite the right wording or that is
• 1:14
  S2: from someone else. I don't know where, but it's definitely
• 1:17
  S2: not in the Bible. If you want to take that quiz,
• 1:20
  S2: just text drew to (800) 555-7898. Just text drew (800) 555-7898. What
• 1:30
  S2: I want to wrestle with a little bit this morning
• 1:32
  S2: is when things happen, whether it's on our own lives
• 1:35
  S2: or in the lives of someone we love, things that
• 1:38
  S2: are often unexpected, that can be painful, really hard seasons.
• 1:43
  S2: There is a hard wired desire in each one of
• 1:46
  S2: us to make some sort of sense of it, to
• 1:50
  S2: gain understanding, to look for some sort of meaning, to
• 1:54
  S2: look for purpose in, particularly in suffering. And so you
• 2:00
  S2: will notice that there are phrases that people often default to,
• 2:05
  S2: to try to do this for us to try to help.
• 2:08
  S2: And maybe you've even offered this up to someone yourself,
• 2:12
  S2: someone who was hurting and their pain was great and
• 2:15
  S2: you didn't really know what to say. And so maybe
• 2:18
  S2: you've had someone look at you and say, everything happens
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  S2: for a reason.
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  S3: That's a big one. That's a big one, big, big one.
• 2:27
  S2: And someone posts something on Facebook. There's going to be
• 2:31
  S2: at least five responses to a Hard Situation shared on
• 2:35
  S2: Facebook or some other social media platform that says, hey,
• 2:38
  S2: hang in there. Everything happens for a reason and I
• 2:41
  S2: want to explore that is that first of all, I'll
• 2:44
  S2: tell you up front, that is not a Bible verse,
• 2:47
  S2: but I want to dig a little deeper what's behind
• 2:50
  S2: our drive to find purpose and suffering? I believe it's
• 2:54
  S2: actually a God given impulse, a God given instinct. And
• 2:58
  S2: coming up here in just a couple of minutes, we're
• 2:59
  S2: going to welcome a special guest in. You hear her
• 3:02
  S2: voice middays here on Moody Radio. She's going to share
• 3:05
  S2: a little bit of her own story, what's been going
• 3:07
  S2: on in her life as of late, and what she
• 3:10
  S2: thinks of this little saying.
• 3:11
  S1: It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 3:15
  S2: Hey, on this Wednesday morning, I want to bring in
• 3:17
  S2: Shawna Beyer. And you may have heard her voice, especially
• 3:21
  S2: if you are one of our listeners or if you
• 3:23
  S2: listen to Moody Radio here just during the middays, her
• 3:26
  S2: very calming, very soothing, very encouraging voice is the one
• 3:30
  S2: that you hear. And Shawna, when someone says, everything happens
• 3:35
  S2: for a reason, I believe that it's usually given with
• 3:38
  S2: the intent to comfort, the attempt to try to hint to.
• 3:43
  S2: There's some greater purpose, there's some greater reason here. But
• 3:48
  S2: does it really feel comforting when when you're told that
• 3:51
  S2: does that, what do you say?
• 3:53
  S4: Well, first of all, thank you for your kind words, Ali.
• 3:55
  S4: It's good to be with you today. I to be
• 3:57
  S4: totally honest with you, I would rather have someone say
• 3:59
  S4: to me, everything happens for a reason than to throw
• 4:03
  S4: a Romans 828 at me. And we know that all
• 4:05
  S4: things work together for the good of those who love
• 4:08
  S4: him and are called according to his purpose. It's like
• 4:10
  S4: that verse is for you. Own it. Believe it. Rest
• 4:14
  S4: in it. Don't share it with your friends when they're
• 4:17
  S4: hurting for sure. It's not a helpful word.
• 4:19
  S2: Yeah. Tell me what's been going on with you as
• 4:22
  S2: of late. I know some of our listeners will already
• 4:25
  S2: know this, but you had a had a pretty gnarly
• 4:28
  S2: injury as of late, and you're in recovery mode.
• 4:31
  S4: Yeah, I did it pretty good. I broke my heel
• 4:33
  S4: a month ago, and the surgeon who put me back
• 4:37
  S4: together literally said that it's of the surgeries that he does,
• 4:40
  S4: it's the most complicated and painful to actually incur and
• 4:45
  S4: then to recover from. And I've really had a hard
• 4:48
  S4: time managing the pain. It's only been a month that
• 4:50
  S4: I realized there are people listening who have been in
• 4:53
  S4: chronic pain for years, Yeah, but this is my story
• 4:56
  S4: and this is my journey. So as I've walked this
• 4:58
  S4: out over the last four weeks, we recently discovered actually
• 5:00
  S4: just last week at a pain specialist appointment that there's
• 5:04
  S4: nerve damage that's complicating my, my recovery. So alongside the
• 5:09
  S4: bone recovery, the injury recovery, there's, um, taking care of
• 5:12
  S4: the nerve as well, which apparently takes a whole different
• 5:15
  S4: set of medication to walk through that healing. So just
• 5:19
  S4: to be really honest with you, Alli, probably about two
• 5:22
  S4: nights ago, I cried myself to sleep because the days
• 5:26
  S4: are hard, but the nights are just brutal. Yeah. When
• 5:29
  S4: you're in excruciating pain and you're so tired and the
• 5:31
  S4: alarms going off every three hours to take more pain meds,
• 5:35
  S4: it's just been really, really difficult to walk through this
• 5:39
  S4: season of pain. That's that's a healing journey I'm on.
• 5:42
  S3: Yeah.
• 5:43
  S2: Now, as you have walked through this with the Lord,
• 5:46
  S2: what what is that? As much as you feel comfortable sharing,
• 5:49
  S2: what has that wrestling looked like? Because it's very natural
• 5:52
  S2: to want to find. Like God, what are you. What
• 5:55
  S2: are you doing in this? What do you want me
• 5:57
  S2: to see? Even if I don't get the. Why did
• 6:00
  S2: this happen like the. What am I supposed to see?
• 6:03
  S2: What does that look like?
• 6:05
  S4: I am a big planner. My calendar is like ridiculously
• 6:09
  S4: crazy people. If my calendar is open and somebody walks
• 6:12
  S4: by and they see it, they will stop and comment
• 6:14
  S4: because there's like, this is this is insane. I am
• 6:17
  S4: very much a schedule, very much a planner, very much
• 6:19
  S4: a think ahead type of personality. And so my mind
• 6:22
  S4: constantly wants to go to what are all those moments
• 6:24
  S4: going to look like? Like a week from a week
• 6:27
  S4: from tomorrow? I fly to the Czech Republic for my
• 6:29
  S4: daughter's wedding and international travel. In the midst of trying
• 6:33
  S4: to deal with this pain and being very present for
• 6:36
  S4: my daughter and celebrating her one and only wedding day
• 6:40
  S4: are things that can consume my thoughts.
• 6:42
  S2: Yeah.
• 6:43
  S4: But the thing that. So one of the things has
• 6:45
  S4: been just learning to stay present in this moment that
• 6:48
  S4: we're in right now and sit here and be here.
• 6:51
  S4: And I got this precious gift from the Lord on
• 6:55
  S4: the day that the accident happened. I went to, um, E.R.
• 6:58
  S4: before I was admitted to the hospital and they asked
• 7:01
  S4: my pain level, said it was a ten. Um, gave
• 7:04
  S4: me some morphine. I was still at a ten. Gave
• 7:06
  S4: me morphine, doubled it. Um, I was still at a ten.
• 7:09
  S4: And in that moment, I kind of felt like my
• 7:13
  S4: interpretation of what was happening was they weren't sure what
• 7:17
  S4: they could do for me at that point. And so
• 7:20
  S4: I not only was I in excruciating pain, but I
• 7:22
  S4: also felt like there's no relief around the corner. Yeah.
• 7:26
  S4: This is I have to deal with this pain and
• 7:28
  S4: sit in it. So I was crying out to God,
• 7:30
  S4: I need you, I need you, I need you. I
• 7:32
  S4: just kept saying that over and over again, eyes closed.
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  S4: Just me and the Lord. And I felt like he
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  S4: put his hands on my face and he got just
• 7:40
  S4: so close. Ally. And he said, I'm right here.
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  S3: Wow.
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  S4: And that was just hours after the heel broke. And
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  S4: that is the very thing that I have held on
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  S4: to as I've walked through this healing journey and the
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  S4: the chronic, constant pain. And I feel like the learning
• 8:00
  S4: that I'm taking from this moment is that pain. That depends.
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  S4: Pain that demands dependence on God is better than comfort.
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  S4: That keeps me independent, and I'm completely dependent on him
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  S4: right now.
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  S2: You know, you shared that and I don't even remember
• 8:16
  S2: where I heard or saw it. I don't know, I
• 8:18
  S2: think it was either in a teams chat that we
• 8:22
  S2: have here internally, but I remember seeing those words that
• 8:25
  S2: you had written, and it stopped me in my tracks
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  S2: because I thought about it. Pain that demands that we
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  S2: depend on him, comfort that say that last part again.
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  S4: Better than comfort. That keeps me independent. Because when things
• 8:38
  S4: are going well for me, I'm less likely. I'm more
• 8:42
  S4: likely to depend on myself and my own ability. And
• 8:46
  S4: so learning to depend on God in the midst of
• 8:48
  S4: my pain has been just the greatest blessing of this.
• 8:52
  S4: And it's also learning to depend on other people because
• 8:55
  S4: it was like 47 degrees yesterday morning when I woke
• 8:58
  S4: up and my accident happened on August 24th. So I
• 9:01
  S4: have flip flops and tank tops and shorts accessible to
• 9:05
  S4: me so I don't have access to my sweaters and
• 9:08
  S4: my boots. So I literally had to call friends and say,
• 9:12
  S4: is there any way that you could come into my
• 9:15
  S4: messy house that hasn't been cleaned in a month and
• 9:19
  S4: into my closet, my very, very private place, and put
• 9:24
  S4: all of my summer things away and help me access
• 9:27
  S4: my sweaters and my boots. And they did. And it's
• 9:30
  S4: again this turn from independence to dependence. So I truly
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  S4: believe that God is teaching me slowly, as I walk
• 9:39
  S4: this out, to depend on him in greater measure, and
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  S4: also to depend on other people.
• 9:44
  S3: Yeah.
• 9:45
  S2: And, you know, back to kind of where we started
• 9:47
  S2: with the everything happens for a reason. You know, I
• 9:49
  S2: think we would love for every situation to be tied
• 9:54
  S2: up into a bow where it goes, okay, yep, I
• 9:57
  S2: can this happened. And I know that this was the
• 10:00
  S2: reason and this, but it's there's so much mystery in that. And,
• 10:04
  S2: and it's the process. I'm part of the sanctification process,
• 10:09
  S2: I think for each of us. Is that wrestling? But
• 10:13
  S2: is it okay if we don't land on the reason
• 10:16
  S2: if we don't, if we don't get there and we don't.
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  S3: Actually.
• 10:19
  S2: We don't know.
• 10:21
  S4: I think it's better because if you said to me,
• 10:24
  S4: everything happens for a reason, my eyes would go looking
• 10:27
  S4: for that reason. What is the reason? What is the reason?
• 10:30
  S4: What is the reason? What is the purpose? And it
• 10:33
  S4: would distract me from keeping my eyes on God. And
• 10:36
  S4: so I don't want to go looking for the reason.
• 10:39
  S4: I want to go looking for my Savior. I want
• 10:41
  S4: to be. I want his face in my face. I
• 10:43
  S4: want to feel his breath on my face. Yeah, I
• 10:46
  S4: would rather have my pain on a scale of 0
• 10:49
  S4: to 10, be a ten and be in God's face.
• 10:53
  S4: Then be comfortable and independent and not relying on him.
• 10:58
  S3: Yeah.
• 11:00
  S2: Such a good word. I, you know, I, this is
• 11:02
  S2: a little insider radio stuff. I was up late, too
• 11:06
  S2: late last night getting ready for today. And I, I
• 11:10
  S2: sent a text to my dear friend Shauna and I said, hey,
• 11:13
  S2: I know it's late and it's last minute. And if
• 11:16
  S2: this doesn't feel burdensome, you want to jump on radio
• 11:19
  S2: and talk about this with me. And you were so
• 11:21
  S2: gracious to say, yeah, you know what? Yeah. So thank you, Shauna,
• 11:26
  S2: for bringing our listeners into a not yet tied up,
• 11:32
  S2: not yet all the way on the other side of
• 11:34
  S2: this kind of deal, because I know that that's where
• 11:36
  S2: so many people are at.
• 11:38
  S4: Yeah. Anytime you give me a chance to talk about Jesus,
• 11:41
  S4: I'm going to say yes. And if I get to
• 11:43
  S4: do it with you, it's a yes exclamation point. So
• 11:47
  S4: thank you so much for having me here today.
• 11:49
  S2: I want to pray for you before we cut you loose.
• 11:51
  S2: And you are listening right now, and this has resonated
• 11:54
  S2: with you. I ask that you just would lock hearts
• 11:56
  S2: with us as we come to our Lord. Lord, I
• 12:00
  S2: thank you for your servant, for your daughter, for Shawna
• 12:03
  S2: and God. I thank you that you have been near
• 12:06
  S2: to her Lord, in this season of walking through some
• 12:10
  S2: intense pain. God, I pray that she would continue to
• 12:13
  S2: see your face, to feel your breath in her face
• 12:16
  S2: as she said yes, and God, I pray for relief. Lord,
• 12:20
  S2: you are merciful. You are near. God, you are present,
• 12:24
  S2: you are sovereign, and you are able. So we just
• 12:28
  S2: ask that you would extend your hand of mercy, Lord,
• 12:31
  S2: that even as she is up early this morning, God,
• 12:34
  S2: that you would give her relief today. God that today
• 12:37
  S2: would be a better day. God that the pain would
• 12:41
  S2: be miraculously lessened, even gone. God where it's not too
• 12:44
  S2: much for you to do. So we just pray for
• 12:48
  S2: your nearness and your healing and your mercy and your kindness. God,
• 12:53
  S2: and we trust you completely. Lord, I thank you for Shawna.
• 12:56
  S2: I pray a blessing over her, Lord. In Jesus name, Amen.
• 13:00
  S4: Amen.
• 13:01
  S2: Shawna, thank you so much. Thank you so much.
• 13:04
  S1: Standing on the rock each and every day, you're listening
• 13:08
  S1: to Carl and Crew.
• 13:11
  S2: I did a bit of a deep dive last night
• 13:13
  S2: and this is I found something that I so interesting
• 13:16
  S2: to me. So everything happens for a reason. Why is
• 13:21
  S2: it that that can feel so unsatisfying? It points to
• 13:27
  S2: the hint of a greater purpose, but it doesn't land anywhere.
• 13:32
  S2: And so I want to tell you about a an
• 13:35
  S2: American psychiatrist named Robert Jay Lifton. I know I've never
• 13:41
  S2: heard of him until last night when I was on
• 13:44
  S2: this rabbit hole. So he wrote a book back in
• 13:47
  S2: the 1960s on the psychology of brainwashing. So he looked
• 13:52
  S2: specifically at tactics used to influence thoughts and beliefs of
• 13:57
  S2: American servicemen who were held in captivity during one of
• 14:01
  S2: the wars. And so he looked at what how did
• 14:06
  S2: certain governments and I'm going to keep it pretty general,
• 14:09
  S2: because it's not the point here. So I don't want
• 14:11
  S2: to get distracted. But how did certain governments seek to
• 14:15
  S2: influence thoughts and beliefs of these servicemen? And one of
• 14:21
  S2: the tactics that he explored was the way language was used,
• 14:26
  S2: how language was manipulated. And so he coined this phrase
• 14:32
  S2: thought terminating cliché. He coined the phrase, he didn't he
• 14:38
  S2: didn't invent the language, obviously, but he identified this type
• 14:44
  S2: of language that falls into this category that he called
• 14:47
  S2: thought terminating cliché. This is what he says about it.
• 14:52
  S2: The most far reaching and complex of human problems are
• 14:56
  S2: compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive sounding phrases, easily memorized,
• 15:04
  S2: easily expressed. They become the start and finish of any
• 15:10
  S2: ideological analysis. I know that's a lot. But think about it.
• 15:15
  S2: Thought terminating cliché. They start and they finish without inviting
• 15:21
  S2: any sort of further analysis.
• 15:23
  S3: Thought shuts the door. That shuts.
• 15:26
  S2: The door. But it sounds. They sound wise. They sound insightful,
• 15:34
  S2: but they begin in land in the same place without
• 15:37
  S2: really telling you anything. Inviting further explanation, they shut it down.
• 15:44
  S2: Here are some examples. I want to be clear. These
• 15:48
  S2: I would. These are not commonly used by us to brainwash,
• 15:53
  S2: to try to shut down conversation. But once you see
• 15:57
  S2: here that thought terminating cliché, you can understand why they
• 16:00
  S2: feel so unsatisfying. Let me give you some examples. Everything
• 16:04
  S2: happens for a reason.
• 16:05
  S3: Oh, boom.
• 16:07
  S2: It is what it is. Boys will be boys.
• 16:11
  S3: Oh, man.
• 16:13
  S2: Agree to disagree. MM.
• 16:15
  S3: Huge. Huge.
• 16:17
  S2: When I saw this, a million light bulbs were going
• 16:19
  S2: off in my brain.
• 16:21
  S3: I'm almost speechless. I'm like, oh.
• 16:22
  S2: Because I thought, yes. That's why when someone reduces misbehavior,
• 16:29
  S2: sometimes even criminal behavior and says boys will be boys.
• 16:33
  S2: It's a thought terminating cliché. It's a phrase. It's easily memorized.
• 16:38
  S2: It's easily expressed, so much so that we almost mistake
• 16:42
  S2: it for being biblical. Because it just rolls off the tongue.
• 16:45
  S2: Everything happens for a reason. But what are we actually saying?
• 16:49
  S3: I mean, it's also even said with like wisdom, like
• 16:51
  S3: it's a great thing to say starts.
• 16:54
  S2: It's the start and finish of any ideological analysis. It
• 16:59
  S2: compresses far reaching, complex human problems into brief, seductive sounding
• 17:06
  S2: phrases that invite no further dialogue.
• 17:11
  S3: Just shuts everything down.
• 17:13
  S2: And that's not the intent. We're well meaning when we
• 17:16
  S2: say everything happens for a reason. But when you hear.
• 17:22
  S3: Get a twitch now.
• 17:25
  S2: It makes it make sense. And so I want to
• 17:28
  S2: explain to you, just in these brief moments, why the Bible,
• 17:33
  S2: God's story offers something so much better, something so much
• 17:39
  S2: richer because it's an invitation to know a person. And
• 17:45
  S2: so do we get concrete answers as to why this happened?
• 17:50
  S2: Why a freak injury? Why an unexpected loss? Why a
• 17:55
  S2: heartbreaking diagnosis? No, no. But we are invited to wrestle
• 18:03
  S2: with the complexity, with the unknown, with the mystery, with
• 18:09
  S2: the Romans 828 that he works all things for good.
• 18:15
  S2: And Alistair Begg, who we had on earlier this week,
• 18:18
  S2: talked about how the good that's being worked in sometimes
• 18:21
  S2: difficult circumstances is conforming us more to his image. Right?
• 18:26
  S3: Yes.
• 18:27
  S2: We look at passages like James, where we we can
• 18:30
  S2: count it all joy when we encounter trials. Why? Because
• 18:35
  S2: it's producing something in us. And so again, we're not
• 18:38
  S2: trying to land on concrete answers of the why, the
• 18:43
  S2: when will this end? We don't always get that, but
• 18:46
  S2: we get to wrestle like David did when he said,
• 18:50
  S2: My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why
• 18:53
  S2: are you so far from saving me from the words
• 18:55
  S2: of my groaning? Oh my God, I cry by day.
• 18:58
  S2: But you do not answer, and by night. But I
• 19:00
  S2: find no rest. Verse three yet you are holy, enthroned
• 19:07
  S2: on the praises of Israel. In you our fathers trusted,
• 19:09
  S2: they trusted, and you delivered them. So instead of a thought,
• 19:14
  S2: a cliche, a thought terminating cliché, it's the start and
• 19:19
  S2: finish of any analysis. It's a story, an invitation to wrestle,
• 19:25
  S2: to wrestle with a good God who can be known,
• 19:29
  S2: not completely. We see now only in part, right? But
• 19:35
  S2: we get glimpses. We know that he's sovereign. We know
• 19:37
  S2: that he's good. We know that he invites us to
• 19:40
  S2: make him our refuge. He says he's our defender. He's
• 19:45
  S2: the defender of the weak. So we have all of
• 19:48
  S2: these things that we start to then piece together that.
• 19:52
  S2: Does it make it easy? What you're going through today? No.
• 19:57
  S2: But when you're invited to be with him, to draw
• 20:02
  S2: nearer to him as he walks you through it, I
• 20:06
  S2: like how Shawna put it as he holds your face
• 20:09
  S2: and says, I am here. It's so much better than
• 20:14
  S2: everything happens for a reason. I don't want you to
• 20:17
  S2: feel ashamed if you've used that, but I want you
• 20:20
  S2: to understand why God offers something so much better.
• 20:24
  S1: It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 20:28
  S3: Well, how much of.
• 20:28
  S2: Our biblical misunderstanding can be attributed to maybe cultural application?
• 20:34
  S2: Cultural Christianity, things that we tend to emphasize more than others,
• 20:39
  S2: things that we call out as sinful more than other things.
• 20:43
  S2: I want to have a discussion on this with Doctor
• 20:45
  S2: Samuel Naaman joining us in studio professor here at Moody
• 20:48
  S2: Bible Institute. We oftentimes on this show try to separate
• 20:52
  S2: out cultural versus biblical Christianity. From your vantage point, not
• 20:57
  S2: being raised here in the United States, what do you see?
• 21:01
  S2: How does our cultural application of what we consider biblical
• 21:05
  S2: Christianity contribute to misunderstanding?
• 21:08
  S5: Sure. You know, we all read the scriptures from our
• 21:13
  S5: worldview that we have been born and raised in, and
• 21:15
  S5: what we say is through our cultural lenses or glasses,
• 21:19
  S5: you know, so it's everyone. So in the West here
• 21:21
  S5: in the US, probably it's from a Western worldview, Western
• 21:24
  S5: cultural perspective. And actually for, for me, coming from the
• 21:29
  S5: non-Western part, we also read the scriptures from our perspective.
• 21:32
  S5: And there are certain things that probably are important for
• 21:35
  S5: us that may not be important for people here. Let
• 21:38
  S5: me just give you one example. I think it is
• 21:42
  S5: critical and important that the beauty of the gospel is
• 21:47
  S5: for us to remember as Christians and Christ followers. The
• 21:49
  S5: beauty of the gospel is that it transcends every culture.
• 21:53
  S5: You know, I mean, we say it's a trans culture and,
• 21:55
  S5: you know, supra culture or all those fancy terms. But
• 21:59
  S5: the beauty is the Bible. The scripture connects with every
• 22:04
  S5: culture in every context. And it is always important to
• 22:09
  S5: remain on the Word of God very clearly what it
• 22:13
  S5: communicates to us. Though we are born and raised in
• 22:15
  S5: our culture. But again, sticking back to the Word of God.
• 22:19
  S5: Let me give you some examples. Okay? I was born
• 22:22
  S5: and raised in Pakistan and we don't have pork, right? Okay.
• 22:26
  S5: We don't have pork. I mean, it's an Islamic nation
• 22:28
  S5: and you cannot go and buy sausages and pork and
• 22:32
  S5: all those things. So so never touched pork. Never eat pork. Well,
• 22:35
  S5: I went to South Korea to study theology, you know,
• 22:38
  S5: my M.Div. and all those things. The first thing is
• 22:41
  S5: that they said, well, uh, we have pork chops. And
• 22:44
  S5: I said, no, I don't eat pork. And, you know, again, common,
• 22:48
  S5: you know, we ordered pork chop. I don't eat pork. Oh,
• 22:50
  S5: why don't you eat pork? You are a Christian now.
• 22:52
  S5: I said, do I have to eat pork in order
• 22:55
  S5: to prove that I'm Christian? You see what I'm saying? Yeah.
• 22:58
  S5: So I'm just saying in common simple aspects. These are
• 23:02
  S5: our cultural norms. Now, the Bible doesn't say that you
• 23:05
  S5: eat this and very clearly or not eat and all
• 23:08
  S5: those things. We see how in the New Testament, the
• 23:10
  S5: whole sheet of animals came to Peter, and God said,
• 23:13
  S5: go and eat. So my point is this. It is
• 23:16
  S5: critical for us to remain on the Word of God
• 23:18
  S5: and then see if it doesn't contradicts the culture, you know?
• 23:23
  S5: And yeah, we are raised in certain point even now,
• 23:25
  S5: I don't eat pork. Part of it is my ministry
• 23:28
  S5: with our Muslim friends. I don't have to eat pork
• 23:31
  S5: to prove that I'm a Christian and I don't. Not
• 23:34
  S5: to eat pork in order to be accepted by Christian.
• 23:36
  S5: You see that? It's very simple. Yeah, it's very simple.
• 23:40
  S2: You know, it's interesting when that growing up in a.
• 23:42
  S2: Obviously in Western culture, I remember when I would hear
• 23:46
  S2: about evangelism and I would hear about the Great Commission. Yes.
• 23:49
  S2: And I for so many years, I heard that as
• 23:54
  S2: the call on America to Christianize the rest of the world.
• 23:58
  S2: And I don't know what what point in time I realized,
• 24:01
  S2: wait a second.
• 24:03
  S5: Well, actually, you know, we were taught that way, right?
• 24:06
  S5: I mean, it's in the back in the 1900s, there
• 24:08
  S5: was a term, of course, if the listeners want to
• 24:11
  S5: Google it, they can manifest destiny. Okay. So we are
• 24:14
  S5: destined to take the gospel. You know, I think that
• 24:17
  S5: was how we were raised. And by the way, I'm
• 24:20
  S5: the first one to acknowledge the contribution of our Western
• 24:23
  S5: missionaries because your forefathers sent missionaries to our part of
• 24:26
  S5: the world. So we responded, my forefathers, my dad responded
• 24:30
  S5: to the gospel, but the Great Commission is equally important
• 24:35
  S5: to every believer. The believer may be in the Amazon
• 24:39
  S5: or in the desert of Sahara, or wherever. It has
• 24:42
  S5: to be applicable. It is applicable to everyone in our
• 24:46
  S5: own context. Majority of the world do not have the
• 24:49
  S5: luxury to become overseas missionaries or whatever you want to
• 24:52
  S5: use the word, you know. But we are all called
• 24:55
  S5: to share the gospel. So I think somehow, you know,
• 24:59
  S5: it used to be from the West to the rest, right?
• 25:01
  S5: The term from the West to the rest now is
• 25:03
  S5: from everywhere to everywhere. These are new missiological understandings that
• 25:07
  S5: we are getting. And actually, as you know, the gospel
• 25:11
  S5: is making an amazing impact in the non-Western world, which
• 25:14
  S5: quote unquote, we also use the term called Global South. Yeah.
• 25:18
  S5: You have South America, you have Africa, you have Middle East,
• 25:21
  S5: you have Asia. I mean, the Chinese church and Korean
• 25:25
  S5: church or other churches. So everyone is passionate for the
• 25:29
  S5: Great Commission, and it is equally important for us to
• 25:33
  S5: teach and challenge every believer wherever we go. He or
• 25:37
  S5: she is called to share his or her faith.
• 25:39
  S2: Yeah. Doctor Samuel Naaman, joining us, professor here at Moody
• 25:42
  S2: Bible Institute. One of the things commonly lobbed as a criticism,
• 25:47
  S2: sometimes unfairly at Christians, is that when it comes to sin,
• 25:51
  S2: it seems like we care a lot more about certain
• 25:55
  S2: sins than others. And so people will say, well, why
• 25:58
  S2: do you care so much about this, but then overlook this.
• 26:02
  S2: And sometimes it's an argument tactic. It's an attempt to
• 26:05
  S2: kind of discredit what we're saying. How much of it
• 26:07
  S2: is true? Do we emphasize the sin that Jesus cares
• 26:11
  S2: the most about, or do we have a different agenda?
• 26:14
  S5: Here again, I will say that with due respect to
• 26:16
  S5: my listeners, it depends on where you have been raised.
• 26:18
  S5: Like in the West, the sanctity of human life is
• 26:21
  S5: very important, right? I mean, for us too.
• 26:24
  S2: Yes.
• 26:25
  S5: For us too. I mean, I'm not saying it is
• 26:26
  S5: not important in our part of the world. But because
• 26:29
  S5: we are the. And that's what we see people taking
• 26:33
  S5: the life of a child and others. That is very important.
• 26:36
  S5: Sanctity of human life. But in many parts of the world. Ali.
• 26:40
  S5: You know, I mean, you have you have lived overseas
• 26:42
  S5: that legally at least, you cannot kill a baby legally. Now,
• 26:47
  S5: I'm not suggesting under the table it doesn't happen. I'm
• 26:50
  S5: not saying abortion doesn't happen. Let's say, for example, Pakistan.
• 26:53
  S5: I'm sure it happens, but at least legally, if it
• 26:57
  S5: is reported, the doctor or the nurse practitioner will lose
• 27:00
  S5: his or her license. And they don't do that. I mean,
• 27:03
  S5: they are not, quote unquote, with due respect, clinics like
• 27:07
  S5: Planned Parenthood. I'm not bashing them down. Sure. But any
• 27:10
  S5: abortion providing clinics that you can go and kill your child.
• 27:13
  S5: I don't see that, at least in many parts of
• 27:15
  S5: the world. So our focus on that aspect may not
• 27:19
  S5: be that important. That doesn't mean that sanctity of human
• 27:22
  S5: life is not precious for me. You know, it is
• 27:25
  S5: precious for me, but I was never presented with that challenge.
• 27:29
  S5: It never appeared. You know that it is a major
• 27:33
  S5: cry in this country. Of course, in the US, you know,
• 27:36
  S5: it is a major issue. So for me as coming
• 27:39
  S5: from the eastern perspective, I have to be respectful to
• 27:43
  S5: my Western friends and value that. And they also, on
• 27:48
  S5: the other hand, have to provide us some space that
• 27:52
  S5: maybe some other things are more important. Like for me,
• 27:55
  S5: I will be very passionate for racial discrimination, you know,
• 28:00
  S5: because that's where I grew up as second class citizen.
• 28:03
  S5: So I may be more passionate about that aspect. And
• 28:07
  S5: that quote unquote, sin is more important for me because
• 28:12
  S5: of my cultural baggage or background as compared to the
• 28:16
  S5: right of life and all those things. Though we are
• 28:17
  S5: very strong supporters of right of life. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. But,
• 28:21
  S5: you know, again, it depends on where we are coming from, right?
• 28:23
  S3: Sure.
• 28:24
  S2: Yeah. The thing that can be that sometimes is heartbreaking,
• 28:27
  S2: and I'm sure no more heartbreaking to anyone but to
• 28:29
  S2: God himself, but that we often are divided over these things.
• 28:33
  S2: And so to even you suggesting that there are other
• 28:37
  S2: issues that because of culturally how you've grown up, many
• 28:40
  S2: people will hear in that something that you have not intended.
• 28:44
  S2: How do we keep from being divided over will I
• 28:48
  S2: care about this? And it doesn't seem like you care
• 28:50
  S2: as much. Therefore.
• 28:52
  S5: You know, you know, Ellie, I always say that if
• 28:54
  S5: I am very passionate about certain issue, then show me
• 28:58
  S5: what you're doing about that.
• 28:59
  S3: Yeah.
• 29:00
  S5: Rather than bashing other people approach. Let me just fix
• 29:03
  S5: on one aspect. Right? Pro-Choice and pro-life. Let me just say,
• 29:07
  S5: if you are very strong pro-life, then where is my
• 29:10
  S5: action now? You said, well, I don't have money. Even
• 29:12
  S5: if you don't have money, are you volunteering? First and
• 29:16
  S5: foremost is are we praying? Yeah. Are we praying for
• 29:19
  S5: the ministries that are doing something? Secondly, what is my contribution?
• 29:23
  S5: It doesn't have to be finances, but everyone has the time,
• 29:26
  S5: even moody students here, I challenge them. If you are
• 29:30
  S5: passionate about this issue, roll up your sleeves and jump in.
• 29:34
  S5: If you are passionate about poverty and hunger. Roll up
• 29:37
  S5: your sleeves and serve in a soup kitchen. There are
• 29:40
  S5: soup kitchens in Chicago area. Or maybe sacrifice. Maybe your,
• 29:45
  S5: you know, your once a week latte or whatever and
• 29:48
  S5: maybe have a McDonalds or whatever and give it to
• 29:50
  S5: a homeless person, you know, meets you on a Chicago
• 29:53
  S5: avenue and in here close to Moody. Well, instead of
• 29:56
  S5: giving him five bucks, just say, you know, come on in,
• 29:58
  S5: I'll buy you a meal or whatever. So I think
• 30:01
  S5: that's where my passion is. If we are, if or
• 30:05
  S5: when we are passionate about an issue, show me with
• 30:07
  S5: your action. Show me with your deeds. In James's work
• 30:10
  S5: and deeds are critical. When I'm passionate about an issue,
• 30:13
  S5: you're passionate about refugees. You're passionate about racial reconciliation. Well,
• 30:18
  S5: then be an agent of peace and reconciliation. Yeah, and
• 30:21
  S5: you will find the divide. Ali is not only limited
• 30:24
  S5: to the cities anymore, you know that it's always in
• 30:27
  S5: the suburbs. I mean, we have more refugees now in.
• 30:30
  S5: I'm talking about Chicago. Look at DuPage County. I mean,
• 30:33
  S5: people are coming there like anything you know, and churches
• 30:36
  S5: are wrestling with this issue. How do we deal, let's say,
• 30:39
  S5: as far as refugees are concerned. So it's not only
• 30:42
  S5: the city of Chicago issue anymore. It's rural, urban, suburban everywhere.
• 30:46
  S2: Yeah. And I definitely don't want to open a can
• 30:49
  S2: of worms here, but I don't want to miss the moment.
• 30:51
  S2: One of the biggest issues that people. I see lots
• 30:54
  S2: of arguments over what is biblical as it pertains to immigration,
• 30:59
  S2: how we handle refugees, and I'm not seeking to land
• 31:02
  S2: in any one particular place, but to certainly wrestle with that.
• 31:05
  S2: We want to be people who are biblical more than
• 31:09
  S2: we are political, more than we are anything else.
• 31:11
  S5: Well, you know what? I mean, this is a question,
• 31:13
  S5: you know, that I teach here and I have a
• 31:15
  S5: lot of young people who come who are passionate about
• 31:17
  S5: these things. I take them early in my course, intercultural
• 31:20
  S5: engagement from the biblical perspective, I said, for us, we
• 31:24
  S5: firmly follow the Word of God. We are commanded. We
• 31:28
  S5: are not given an option. We are commanded. The house
• 31:30
  S5: of the Lord, even in the Israel time, was the
• 31:33
  S5: house of prayer for all nations. So let's stick with
• 31:36
  S5: the biblical mandate that the Lord has given us. Having
• 31:40
  S5: said that, we also pray for the law enforcement and others.
• 31:44
  S5: We also pray for the government that God will give
• 31:46
  S5: them the wisdom. My point is this again, it may
• 31:49
  S5: be very naive. He said, well, but you're you're kind
• 31:51
  S5: of watering down. You are very naive. I am focused
• 31:54
  S5: on heavenly kingdom. You know that for the last 30 years,
• 31:57
  S5: we have a ministry here in Chicago called South Asian
• 31:59
  S5: Friendship Center Northside, right. I know that majority of the
• 32:02
  S5: people who live in our neighborhood came here legally landed
• 32:05
  S5: at O'Hare airport. My focus is that we want to
• 32:09
  S5: present Jesus to them. Now, having said that, if we
• 32:14
  S5: see any abuse, if we see anyone breaking the law,
• 32:17
  S5: we warn them, hey, you know, this is not India
• 32:19
  S5: or Pakistan or Nepal and Bhutan. I mean, law is
• 32:23
  S5: very serious here, and if they get you, that means
• 32:26
  S5: you are gone. So I think that is my duty
• 32:29
  S5: as a citizen of this country. This is how I
• 32:31
  S5: address it. I pay a lot of taxes. Federal and state.
• 32:35
  S5: Let the government do their job. Let me carry on
• 32:39
  S5: what God has called me to do. I am more
• 32:41
  S5: focused on the heavenly kingdom, whether the person is saved
• 32:44
  S5: or not than here. I respect the law enforcement agencies.
• 32:49
  S5: I pray for them and I also pray for people.
• 32:52
  S5: A mom and two kids who have walked thousands of miles.
• 32:55
  S2: Yeah.
• 32:56
  S5: You know, I think it is easy for us to
• 32:57
  S5: sit in Midwest in air conditioned rooms and point fingers.
• 33:01
  S5: But have we tried to put ourselves in their shoes?
• 33:05
  S5: Regardless of anything that you leave a country and you
• 33:09
  S5: walk 2000 miles, you know, trek with two kids or
• 33:12
  S5: you are trafficked. And something happened in that situation that
• 33:17
  S5: she had to flee.
• 33:19
  S3: Yeah.
• 33:19
  S5: You know. So rather than getting into politics, right, left,
• 33:24
  S5: I don't know. Rather than getting into politics, I look
• 33:27
  S5: at the Word of God, which is the supreme authority
• 33:30
  S5: for me as a Christ follower. I firmly believe on
• 33:33
  S5: the Bible. The Bible calls me to care. The Bible
• 33:36
  S5: calls me to provide help. The Bible calls me to
• 33:40
  S5: love strangers as God, as we love ourselves. That's very
• 33:43
  S5: solid and heavy stuff as I love myself. I am
• 33:47
  S5: called to love the people who are in my heart
• 33:49
  S5: or in among us. I think that gives me peace
• 33:53
  S5: as long as I remain. Again, for me, as long
• 33:56
  S5: as I remain focused on the Word of God, I
• 33:59
  S5: have peace. I am overwhelmed by what I see, but
• 34:04
  S5: I'm not going to mix politics with the Word of God. No,
• 34:07
  S5: I will never do that.
• 34:08
  S2: Doctor Samuel Naaman, really appreciate your your contributions this morning
• 34:12
  S2: and your your faithfulness here at Moody and the perspective
• 34:15
  S2: that you bring and the way that you usher and
• 34:18
  S2: shepherd your students through these. These are difficult issues to
• 34:21
  S2: wrestle with, and it's the minute you start even going
• 34:24
  S2: that direction, there's going to be lots of bias and
• 34:26
  S2: lots of defenses that are up. But I appreciate your honest,
• 34:29
  S2: sincere wrestling to be a biblicist first.
• 34:32
  S5: Yes, I. That's a new word that I've learned, guys.
• 34:35
  S5: Thank you. Biblicist. Okay. Is it in the dictionary or something?
• 34:39
  S2: Now I got to check it, I hope, I hope
• 34:40
  S2: I didn't just biblicist okay. I hope.
• 34:42
  S5: I didn't just invent.
• 34:43
  S2: A word. Doctor. Samuel. Naaman. He mentioned his. We mentioned
• 34:46
  S2: his work here at Moody, also vice president of call
• 34:49
  S2: of Hope. Just text Hope to 805 557898. Just text
• 34:55
  S2: the word hope 805 557898.
• 34:59
  S1: Standing on the rock. Each and every day you're listening
• 35:04
  S1: to Carl and Crew.
• 35:06
  S2: Well, maybe you've heard somebody say, hey, you can't be
• 35:09
  S2: judging me. You Christians are so judgmental. Only God can
• 35:13
  S2: judge me. Only God knows my heart. Shannon Popkin is
• 35:17
  S2: joining us. We're going to talk about this is a
• 35:20
  S2: very popular topic for Christians and non-Christians. The book is
• 35:26
  S2: called Kinda Judgy, which I love the title, by the way,
• 35:29
  S2: Finding Mercy for myself and others in six stories of
• 35:33
  S2: the Bible. We'll start out with what feels like the
• 35:36
  S2: elephant in the room. Christians are often accused of being
• 35:38
  S2: far too judgmental. How much of that is fair criticism
• 35:42
  S2: and how much of that is unfair?
• 35:44
  S6: I think we all are kind of judgy, aren't we?
• 35:47
  S6: Like believers? Unbelievers? I mean, just look at the way
• 35:51
  S6: we are in traffic or how we treat each other online.
• 35:55
  S6: And it is kind of a confusing topic because the
• 35:58
  S6: Bible teaches both. It teaches that we are to judge
• 36:01
  S6: with righteous judgment, but also do not judge. And that's
• 36:04
  S6: the latter one is what the world likes to, you know,
• 36:07
  S6: throw up like you're a Christian. You're not supposed to judge. Well,
• 36:11
  S6: it doesn't mean that we're never supposed to say that
• 36:14
  S6: something is wrong. You know, that's our cultural moment that
• 36:16
  S6: we live in. It's wrong to say anything is wrong.
• 36:19
  S6: And yet I want to call us as believers to
• 36:23
  S6: Jesus's warning not to judge. I think we get it
• 36:26
  S6: wrong in so many ways. We get it wrong when
• 36:28
  S6: we're hypocritical, when we act like we never do anything wrong,
• 36:31
  S6: when we're harsh toward other people. You know, we're also
• 36:34
  S6: told to be merciful as our father is merciful. So basically,
• 36:38
  S6: if we had to boil it down, the way that
• 36:39
  S6: we get it wrong is with our pride.
• 36:42
  S2: And not a single person listening, speaker included, is immune
• 36:45
  S2: to that. Let's talk about your own relationship to this topic. Now,
• 36:50
  S2: why did this become something that you felt like this
• 36:53
  S2: deserves a deeper dive? I'm sure there was a personal
• 36:55
  S2: story that drove you there.
• 36:57
  S6: I think I can be so judgy. I really can. I,
• 37:00
  S6: you know, I grew up in the church. And when
• 37:03
  S6: you grow up in church, you're very aware of right
• 37:05
  S6: and wrong. I mean, that's what judging is. The line
• 37:08
  S6: between right and wrong. And so when you grow up
• 37:10
  S6: in the church, you know those rules and you're so aware,
• 37:13
  S6: like hyper aware of when somebody else is crossing one
• 37:16
  S6: of those lines. And within the community of believers, you
• 37:19
  S6: almost feel responsible. Like I should let them know, you know,
• 37:22
  S6: and I do. I see that in myself. I feel
• 37:25
  S6: that burden. And yet what I see in the pages
• 37:29
  S6: of our Bible from the beginning to the end, not
• 37:33
  S6: only is God a judge, he is a judge who judges,
• 37:36
  S6: but yet what rises to the surface is his mercy.
• 37:41
  S6: And so that's really what I want for myself. That's
• 37:43
  S6: what I want. Like we talked about in this cultural moment,
• 37:46
  S6: that's what I want for all of us, is that
• 37:48
  S6: we would learn to be merciful as our father in
• 37:50
  S6: heaven is merciful.
• 37:52
  S2: So let's talk about the Matthew seven one. You referenced
• 37:54
  S2: it earlier, this call to not judge. Give us some
• 37:58
  S2: context around understanding that and how we apply it.
• 38:02
  S6: That is part of Jesus's sermon on the Mount. And
• 38:06
  S6: he does say, do not judge. But then there's a conditional.
• 38:09
  S6: So you won't be judged. And so it's not only
• 38:12
  S6: a command, it's a warning. He's telling us like we're
• 38:15
  S6: going to be judged by the same measurement that we
• 38:18
  S6: use as we judge other people. And so if you
• 38:20
  S6: picture like, let's use a scoop size for our mercy,
• 38:23
  S6: not our judgment, you know. So if I have a
• 38:25
  S6: big gallon sized scoop of mercy, God's going to dish
• 38:28
  S6: that mercy into my life. But if I have a
• 38:31
  S6: little quarter of a teaspoon size for mercy and I'm
• 38:34
  S6: super harsh and judgmental, I'm going to receive that back
• 38:37
  S6: from the Lord. This is the warning from Jesus, but
• 38:39
  S6: it does not like let's talk about what it's not saying.
• 38:43
  S6: It's not saying that we never judge and say anything
• 38:47
  S6: is wrong. Because like further on in that same sermon,
• 38:50
  S6: Jesus is talking about judge people by the fruit on
• 38:53
  S6: their branches. You know, the fruit of their lives. It
• 38:55
  S6: tells you something about what's going on in their heart.
• 38:57
  S6: And yet, you know, we should be careful not to judge,
• 39:01
  S6: just superficially. Like there's all these ways that we can
• 39:03
  S6: get it wrong. Jesus is not saying that we can't
• 39:07
  S6: call one another to repentance. There are plenty of verses
• 39:09
  S6: that tell us we are to judge with righteous judgment,
• 39:13
  S6: and yet be careful in the way that we judge
• 39:16
  S6: one another to not do it in a hypocritical way.
• 39:18
  S6: Like to not judge you as if I have not
• 39:21
  S6: already done that sin, or committed that in some way
• 39:24
  S6: in my own life.
• 39:26
  S2: You know, I think the natural response to any from
• 39:29
  S2: any of us, when we feel judged is to feel
• 39:32
  S2: very defensive. You know, recently I had someone that I
• 39:35
  S2: love near and dear to me who had an article
• 39:38
  S2: in the newspaper, and it was a great write up
• 39:40
  S2: celebrating something that this person had done. And wouldn't you
• 39:44
  S2: know it, the comment section, the comment section of any, any,
• 39:48
  S2: any online space can be so loaded with criticism and judgment.
• 39:53
  S2: And out of nowhere, I just happened to be scanning
• 39:56
  S2: the comments and most of them were very positive. But
• 39:58
  S2: then there was this one that was so critical and
• 40:02
  S2: judgmental of this person that I love, and I thought,
• 40:05
  S2: they have no idea what they're talking about. And I
• 40:08
  S2: felt like this urge to kind of this foot stomping,
• 40:11
  S2: kind of fist pounding anger, like, I need to set
• 40:15
  S2: the record straight. And a lot of times when we
• 40:18
  S2: are being judged, we feel the need to defend ourselves,
• 40:22
  S2: but we are quick to take on and take up
• 40:24
  S2: that gavel of our own and do the very same
• 40:26
  S2: thing to other people. Speak to that.
• 40:28
  S6: Yeah, we feel judged and we become judgy. It's almost
• 40:31
  S6: like this chain reaction, at least in my heart. It is.
• 40:33
  S6: And you're exactly right. Like online. Oh my goodness, it's
• 40:36
  S6: really bad. But I think in our own personal lives,
• 40:38
  S6: like we had a text thread going on with our
• 40:40
  S6: family and I responded to my daughter in law with,
• 40:43
  S6: I just said, K, you know, like, okay, I kind
• 40:46
  S6: of thought it was cute. I didn't know. And my
• 40:49
  S6: son was like, mom, are you mad at her? And
• 40:51
  S6: I was like, no, why would you say that? And
• 40:54
  S6: he's like, well, you're not supposed to just say K.
• 40:57
  S6: You know, that means you're frustrated. You're angry with her.
• 40:59
  S6: And I was like, oh my goodness. And so I'm
• 41:02
  S6: like putting in the group text, like, please don't judge me.
• 41:04
  S6: I didn't know I, you know, but there's so much
• 41:07
  S6: temptation to feel judged by somebody else. And my daughter
• 41:10
  S6: in law did not respond in that harsh way. Yeah,
• 41:13
  S6: there's all of this temptation, isn't there? And so I
• 41:15
  S6: think what is most helpful, me being the one who
• 41:19
  S6: grew up in church and I want to get it right,
• 41:20
  S6: I want to always do it right. My temptation is
• 41:23
  S6: to go to all those teaching passages in the Bible.
• 41:25
  S6: And I have done this, Ali, I have created. I'm
• 41:28
  S6: about ten years back, I created this chart for my
• 41:30
  S6: Bible study group where it was like, all right, here
• 41:32
  S6: are all the verses. And here's when we do judge,
• 41:34
  S6: here's when we don't judge. And here are the parameters
• 41:36
  S6: and the qualifiers. And I think after I got that
• 41:39
  S6: chart all the way finished, it only made me more
• 41:41
  S6: judgy because because now I knew with precision I was
• 41:45
  S6: doing it right and other people were doing it wrong.
• 41:47
  S6: And so I think that's the way that we as
• 41:49
  S6: the church, that's the way I see us responding. We
• 41:51
  S6: feel judged by the world. You know, the world is saying,
• 41:53
  S6: don't judge. And we just we want to get out
• 41:55
  S6: our little chart. No, we're doing it. All right. They're
• 41:57
  S6: doing it all wrong. And I think we're kind of
• 41:59
  S6: missing the whole point here because we're told to be
• 42:03
  S6: merciful as our father in heaven is merciful. And Jesus
• 42:05
  S6: is the exact representation of our father. And so how
• 42:08
  S6: did Jesus respond when people crossed lines? You know, he
• 42:12
  S6: did call out sin, but he was so incredibly merciful.
• 42:16
  S6: And that's what we see in all these stories. I
• 42:18
  S6: feel like stories of the Bible can be more helpful
• 42:21
  S6: because they help capture the heart of God. And what
• 42:24
  S6: these different stories in the Bible show us is that
• 42:26
  S6: our God, what he leads with, what he most wants
• 42:29
  S6: us to know about himself is that he is so
• 42:31
  S6: merciful and we, those of us who have received this mercy,
• 42:36
  S6: it's supposed to change us. There's an intentionality. It's his
• 42:39
  S6: kindness that leads. It's intended to lead us to repentance,
• 42:43
  S6: but also to change our hearts toward other people.
• 42:45
  S3: Yeah.
• 42:46
  S2: You have six stories, biblical stories that you reference in
• 42:50
  S2: this book, kind of judgy at Shannon Popkin, the author
• 42:53
  S2: with us right now. Pick one of those and pull
• 42:55
  S2: out what most stuck out to you.
• 42:58
  S6: I chose three from the Old Testament, three from the
• 43:00
  S6: New Testament, because I wanted to dispel this idea that
• 43:03
  S6: the God of the Old Testament is this harsh, judgmental
• 43:06
  S6: God and the God of the New Testament is just merciful. No,
• 43:10
  S6: what we see running through all six of these stories.
• 43:13
  S6: What rises to the surface like there's mercy running through
• 43:17
  S6: the whole Bible, but I think the one that captured
• 43:19
  S6: my heart most. You know, my judgy heart was the
• 43:22
  S6: story of Jonah, the story of Jonah. He was so
• 43:26
  S6: harsh and judgmental toward these Ninevites, and they were awful people.
• 43:30
  S6: You know, it was not wrong for him to say
• 43:31
  S6: that they were wrong because they were terrible and they
• 43:34
  S6: had hurt Jonah's people. And yet, when they were falling
• 43:38
  S6: to their knees and repentance before God, Jonah didn't like that.
• 43:41
  S6: And his heart was filled with contempt for them. And
• 43:45
  S6: what God kept calling out, he asked him twice. He said, Jonah,
• 43:49
  S6: is it right for you to be angry and notice
• 43:51
  S6: that word right? You know, judging is all about right
• 43:53
  S6: and wrong. And so God is like, you know, yes,
• 43:56
  S6: they are wrong and they are repenting, but are you
• 43:58
  S6: right to judge them? Is your contempt, is that what's right?
• 44:02
  S6: And the answer is no. And Jonah spoke back to
• 44:04
  S6: God and he's like, yeah, it is right. I am
• 44:06
  S6: right to do this. And so, man, I just I
• 44:09
  S6: see that in my own heart. I feel like it's
• 44:11
  S6: right for me to have this contempt toward other sinful people.
• 44:15
  S6: And that's what the Lord has been working on in
• 44:17
  S6: my heart. And so much conviction, so many ways that
• 44:20
  S6: the Lord opened my eyes through these six stories. But
• 44:23
  S6: most importantly, I think encountering our merciful judge in these
• 44:28
  S6: stories of the Bible is powerful. It has the potential
• 44:32
  S6: to melt our judgy pride and to help us trade
• 44:36
  S6: our contempt for compassion the way that the Lord has
• 44:38
  S6: compassion on people.
• 44:40
  S2: Shannon Popkin the book is called Kind of Judgy Finding
• 44:43
  S2: Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible.
• 44:46
  S2: Love this conversation. Just text judgy to 805 557898. You
• 44:52
  S2: have my permission to text the word judgy 805 557898.
• 44:58
  S2: We'll send you more details.
• 45:00
  S1: Standing on the rock each and every day you're listening
• 45:05
  S1: to Carl and crew.
• 45:07
  S2: We have to jump right into this because here is
• 45:10
  S2: an interesting, fun fact. So many of the most beloved
• 45:14
  S2: Bible verses that are commonly quoted aren't in the Bible
• 45:19
  S2: at all. Doctor Jim Coakley joining us in studio professor
• 45:23
  S2: here at Moody Bible Institute, you call them the Phantom Verses? Yes.
• 45:28
  S2: Is that in the Bible? That's the subject of our conversation,
• 45:31
  S2: Doctor Coakley, Phantom verses. Yes. Where did you come up
• 45:34
  S2: with that one?
• 45:35
  S7: Well, it's the idea that people think they're in the Bible,
• 45:37
  S7: but they're not. So you look for them. Of course,
• 45:39
  S7: you try to find them in a concordance and they're
• 45:41
  S7: just there's no reference that kind of backs them up.
• 45:44
  S7: And so we have a lot of different things like this.
• 45:46
  S7: And again, there's nothing necessarily harmful about some of these.
• 45:49
  S7: But some of them I think can be really bothersome
• 45:53
  S7: if we don't really understand the full context. And that's
• 45:56
  S7: really the the whole key.
• 45:57
  S2: So I'm going to throw you a couple. These definitely
• 45:59
  S2: came in on Facebook, one of the ones, and I've
• 46:03
  S2: heard this and I don't know where I've heard it
• 46:05
  S2: attributed to, but people will often say cleanliness is next
• 46:08
  S2: to godliness. Is there any where is that in Scripture? One.
• 46:12
  S2: And if not, is there anything like it? Where did
• 46:15
  S2: that come from?
• 46:15
  S7: No, Cornelius is next to godliness is really from John Wesley.
• 46:19
  S7: Not in Scripture. Okay. So it kind of follows through.
• 46:22
  S7: I mean, you kind of know that if you have
• 46:23
  S7: a good, organized, well designed life and you're, you know,
• 46:27
  S7: you're hygienic as well. Uh, you know, you're going to,
• 46:30
  S7: things are going to go better for you than if
• 46:32
  S7: you have halitosis or bad breath. Uh, you know, you're
• 46:35
  S7: going to be turning off people. And so the idea
• 46:37
  S7: that cleanliness is next to godliness, I mean, probably you
• 46:40
  S7: can see how they're, they're wrapping in a number of
• 46:42
  S7: elements like holiness from the book of Leviticus and all
• 46:46
  S7: these things. And they're just kind of making it into
• 46:48
  S7: a pithy statement. But the core essence of the statement
• 46:50
  S7: itself does not exist in the Bible.
• 46:52
  S2: So don't quote that when you're trying to get your
• 46:54
  S2: teenager to clean their room. No, no. You know, it
• 46:57
  S2: says cleanliness is next. No, it doesn't exactly say that?
• 47:01
  S2: What about this one? I hear people say this. This
• 47:04
  S2: too shall pass.
• 47:06
  S7: Yeah. Actually, there's a funny story for those of us
• 47:08
  S7: in Chicago area, because John or Mike Ditka, when he
• 47:11
  S7: was let go as a coach, he got after his interview,
• 47:15
  S7: he was kind of in tears and stuff. And he said, yeah,
• 47:17
  S7: the scripture say this too shall pass. And the idea
• 47:19
  S7: that his his time has is now ended as coach
• 47:22
  S7: of Chicago Bears. And so, you know, he said he
• 47:25
  S7: was quoting the scripture. And a lot of people think
• 47:26
  S7: that that's in the in the Bible. It really comes
• 47:28
  S7: from a Persian proverb, the idea that, you know, again,
• 47:32
  S7: time heals all wounds or something similar to that. And
• 47:35
  S7: so the idea is, you know, really we have to
• 47:38
  S7: realize that that particular concept may be touched upon in
• 47:42
  S7: small ways, but it's not really as stated in the Bible.
• 47:46
  S2: So I know that one of your great passions is
• 47:48
  S2: to help people read and understand the Word of God.
• 47:51
  S2: One of the books we featured often 14 Fresh ways
• 47:54
  S2: to enjoy the Bible. What is the. I guess the
• 47:57
  S2: source of some. Some of these common Misunderstandings. Is it
• 48:00
  S2: a biblical illiteracy? Is it just kind of a blurring
• 48:04
  S2: of the lines? Is it when things kind of sound
• 48:06
  S2: King James Version esque and the language, we think, oh yeah,
• 48:09
  S2: that must be biblical?
• 48:10
  S7: No, I think you hit on a lot of them.
• 48:12
  S7: I mean, one of them is just pure ignorance and
• 48:14
  S7: the idea of biblical illiteracy. And so sometimes people can
• 48:17
  S7: kind of yank our our chains by saying, hey, turn
• 48:20
  S7: in the book of Hezekiah or second hesitations or even
• 48:24
  S7: some small things. Jonah and the whale. Well, the Bible
• 48:26
  S7: doesn't mention whale. It's a great fish. And so we're
• 48:29
  S7: just kind of illiterate on a number of kind of funny,
• 48:33
  S7: foundational kind of fundamental truths. But the idea is some
• 48:36
  S7: of them sound so are so close. They're, they're, they
• 48:40
  S7: sound proverbial. They almost sound like they could come from
• 48:42
  S7: the book of Proverbs. And sadly, some of them confirm
• 48:45
  S7: our biases. So if we have certain things that we
• 48:48
  S7: already are predisposed to believe, and we hear something that
• 48:51
  S7: kind of falls in line with that, we can kind
• 48:53
  S7: of quote that and use that as support as another
• 48:56
  S7: support chain to kind of Uh, hold up our arguments.
• 49:00
  S2: Yeah. And I've noticed that some of these are often
• 49:03
  S2: uttered in an attempt to make sense of the world
• 49:06
  S2: or to make sense of pain. Like. Like the. This
• 49:09
  S2: too shall pass. Yes, it feels very comforting. Like the
• 49:12
  S2: idea that how it is right now isn't how it
• 49:14
  S2: will always be. And there's, there's. You can certainly build
• 49:17
  S2: a biblical case for the some of those ideas. But
• 49:22
  S2: we often want to offer comfort. And so these, these
• 49:24
  S2: little sayings feel meaningful.
• 49:27
  S7: Yeah. Because, I mean, we want to condense a lot
• 49:29
  S7: of things right quickly to get to a pithy statement
• 49:32
  S7: to get right to the, the really the question or
• 49:34
  S7: the issue at hand. And so it's an understandable completely
• 49:38
  S7: on a human level why we want to do that. Well,
• 49:40
  S7: let's open our Bibles to let's read a whole chapter.
• 49:42
  S7: Know when we can just kind of quickly give out
• 49:44
  S7: a line. Some of these are again, you know, like
• 49:47
  S7: the idea the wolf or the lion shall lay down
• 49:50
  S7: with the lamb. Well, you look at it and the
• 49:52
  S7: actual passage says it's the wolf shall lie down with
• 49:55
  S7: the lamb. But yet we have our image. Sometimes we
• 49:57
  S7: see it on Facebook and other things. We see a
• 49:59
  S7: book of Isaiah kind of verse, and it talks about
• 50:02
  S7: lion and the lamb kind of lying down in a
• 50:04
  S7: field next to each other. Well, you know, again, there's
• 50:07
  S7: nothing wrong because it's a wild, ferocious animal, but it's
• 50:10
  S7: not really the lion. It's the the wolf.
• 50:13
  S3: Yeah.
• 50:13
  S2: Doctor Jim Coakley with us right now. So coming up
• 50:16
  S2: let's talk about some basic principles to read and study
• 50:19
  S2: the word. Some of these may be review for those
• 50:22
  S2: of you who've been reading the Bible for some time,
• 50:24
  S2: but I want you to listen carefully. We want to
• 50:26
  S2: make sure that we are reading and studying and getting
• 50:29
  S2: the most out of the word and the most word
• 50:31
  S2: into us so that we don't make these mistakes, and
• 50:34
  S2: so that we can help lead others who may be
• 50:37
  S2: well intentioned in some of the things that they're saying,
• 50:39
  S2: but just need a slight correction. More with Doctor Coakley
• 50:42
  S2: coming up. Does the Bible say that? And if it does,
• 50:45
  S2: does it mean what it's commonly applied or intended to
• 50:49
  S2: mean or used at these popular phrases? This too shall pass.
• 50:53
  S2: God helps those who help themselves Don't judge. Only God
• 50:58
  S2: can judge me. God knows my heart. I hear a
• 51:00
  S2: lot of these. Doctor Jim Coakley is going to help
• 51:03
  S2: us this morning. Let's talk about before we get into
• 51:05
  S2: some of these passages, some principles that can guide us
• 51:09
  S2: and make sure that we're not aiming for perfect understanding
• 51:13
  S2: at every day of your Bible reading, there are going
• 51:16
  S2: to be times where you're not totally clear on what's
• 51:19
  S2: being said.
• 51:20
  S7: That's why the Bible is wonderful, because it allows even
• 51:23
  S7: kind of neophytes or basic babes kind of understanding things.
• 51:27
  S7: And yes, it's you have to read it and reread it,
• 51:29
  S7: and then you get more each time you come through it.
• 51:31
  S7: So that's the beauty of God's word. It's something you
• 51:34
  S7: can never exhaust. I kind of chide that when I
• 51:37
  S7: get to heaven, I want to be in the advanced
• 51:38
  S7: Bible classes, so I want to have all the good
• 51:41
  S7: basic stuff down now so I can get into the
• 51:43
  S7: to the higher classes up there. But because we're going
• 51:46
  S7: to still be learning in heaven. Yeah. Believe it or not,
• 51:48
  S7: the Word of God lasts forever. And so we're going
• 51:50
  S7: to be hearing about it for all of eternity. And
• 51:53
  S7: so God has embedded so much there. But, you know,
• 51:55
  S7: this is really a part of a whole course. I
• 51:57
  S7: teach here in the undergrad at Moody Bible Institute. You know,
• 52:00
  S7: Bible study methods, hermeneutics, as we call it, the art
• 52:03
  S7: and science of Bible interpretation. Number one has got to
• 52:06
  S7: be you got to pay attention to context. You know,
• 52:08
  S7: we often have this this statement, you know, a text
• 52:11
  S7: without a context is a text without context is a
• 52:15
  S7: pretext for a proof text. And so that's the kind
• 52:18
  S7: of the thing there. And so we have to read
• 52:21
  S7: the not just the verse. And that's some of the problems.
• 52:23
  S7: We read slivers of passages or just even a verse itself.
• 52:27
  S7: And we pull that out. We read it on somebody's
• 52:29
  S7: Facebook feed or social media feed, and we never really
• 52:33
  S7: take the time to read it in the setting in
• 52:35
  S7: which it was found. So those verses are in a neighborhood.
• 52:38
  S7: So you got to get to know not just that
• 52:39
  S7: one verse, but the neighborhood all around that verse. Number
• 52:43
  S7: two is find out what did it mean to the
• 52:45
  S7: original audience before you quickly try to see what does
• 52:48
  S7: it mean to me today? Yeah. And so this we
• 52:50
  S7: have to understand that not all the Bible is written
• 52:52
  S7: directly to us now. It was written for us, but
• 52:55
  S7: it's not always written directly for us. So a lot
• 52:58
  S7: of the Old Testament was written to ethnic national Israel.
• 53:00
  S7: And so we can't necessarily claim everything for application and
• 53:05
  S7: our purposes today. And then also another one is let
• 53:08
  S7: the clear interpret the unclear. And sometimes we have to
• 53:12
  S7: then compare Scripture and say, what is it that this
• 53:15
  S7: other passages have to contribute to this conversation? And this
• 53:18
  S7: is really more of a topical study, but it helps
• 53:21
  S7: to call what we say kind of consult the biblical map,
• 53:24
  S7: make sure that when you apply a verse that the
• 53:27
  S7: rest of the Bible lines up with that.
• 53:29
  S2: Because there's quite a few passages, there's so many layers
• 53:32
  S2: to this. When you start looking at looking at these
• 53:35
  S2: commonly misquoted or, or basically flat out invented passages, but
• 53:40
  S2: there are some common ones that are they're there, but
• 53:44
  S2: they're misapplied or misread a big one. God won't give
• 53:47
  S2: you more than you can handle. And this is often
• 53:49
  S2: told to people who are going through great suffering. And
• 53:52
  S2: the idea is if God's given it to you, if
• 53:55
  S2: God's allowed you to bear this, then you can handle
• 53:58
  S2: it like you have the strength. He wouldn't put more
• 54:01
  S2: on you than you could possibly bear. What do you
• 54:04
  S2: say on that one?
• 54:05
  S7: There's, again, there's partial truth to these things because certainly
• 54:08
  S7: we know God's grace is sufficient for us to endure
• 54:11
  S7: all sorts of hardships. So we know God's grace is there.
• 54:14
  S7: But to say that God won't give you more than
• 54:17
  S7: you can bear, I think, is overstating really what the
• 54:20
  S7: text says. Now it is in the context of Corinthians.
• 54:24
  S7: God will make in temptation a way of escape.
• 54:26
  S3: Yes.
• 54:27
  S7: And so when you're tempted, if you find that escape hatch,
• 54:30
  S7: God's already provided that for you to go through. Now,
• 54:33
  S7: he's not saying that you won't undergo all sorts of
• 54:36
  S7: tremendous suffering and pain and agony, because Paul says this
• 54:41
  S7: when he says this in this is in second Corinthians
• 54:44
  S7: chapter one, verse eight. We do not want you to
• 54:46
  S7: be unaware. So he goes on, for we were so
• 54:49
  S7: utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired even of
• 54:53
  S7: life itself. So I think at that moment, I don't
• 54:56
  S7: think that verse that, you know, God won't give you
• 54:58
  S7: more than you can handle. Paul says, I can't handle this.
• 55:01
  S7: I was so despairing even of life itself. And so
• 55:04
  S7: but there was no temptation there. It's just saying what
• 55:07
  S7: we need. The world needs to see exhibit A of
• 55:10
  S7: what happens when we see believers under pressure and what the.
• 55:14
  S7: What did they default back to? Did they go back
• 55:16
  S7: to trust or do they, you know, look for, again,
• 55:20
  S7: mechanisms to cope and to, you know, kind of mitigate
• 55:23
  S7: the pain and the agony or just totally try to
• 55:25
  S7: skirt all around it? Or do they remain under that
• 55:28
  S7: pressure and let God's grace continue to minister to them?
• 55:31
  S2: So what would be a more accurate like so instead
• 55:35
  S2: of God won't give you more than you can handle.
• 55:37
  S2: What would be a more accurate way of stating that
• 55:40
  S2: I'm trying to think in real time. Uh, God will
• 55:43
  S2: always give you the grace is like.
• 55:46
  S3: Yeah, God will always give you the.
• 55:47
  S7: Grace. Yeah, God will always give you the grace to
• 55:49
  S7: do the right thing at that time.
• 55:51
  S2: Oh, okay.
• 55:51
  S3: I like.
• 55:52
  S7: That. And so I guess, you know, and this is
• 55:54
  S7: what I love, this is again, trying to apply the
• 55:56
  S7: word of God that does, in a sense, gives credence
• 55:59
  S7: to the application. I mean, wants to look for application
• 56:03
  S7: but gives again, full dependence upon there's a context here
• 56:07
  S7: and we don't want to overstate. We want to overwrite
• 56:09
  S7: a check. We can't. We don't want to write checks
• 56:12
  S7: that we that God can't cash. Yeah. And this is
• 56:14
  S7: really what we're trying to do because people get really
• 56:16
  S7: discouraged if we over promise things. Train up a child
• 56:19
  S7: in the way you should go. When he's old, he
• 56:22
  S7: won't depart from it. Parents will then take that to
• 56:24
  S7: the spiritual bank and say, well, I raised my child
• 56:27
  S7: in church and they're not. They're going to come back
• 56:29
  S7: someday because God said it. Well, that's in the book
• 56:31
  S7: of Proverbs. That's a genre of again, these are proverbial things,
• 56:35
  S7: generally true, but they're not universally true.
• 56:37
  S2: Principles. Not promises.
• 56:39
  S7: Right. Principles, not promises.
• 56:40
  S3: Yeah.
• 56:41
  S2: Now, what about this one? Jeremiah 2911. This one is.
• 56:45
  S3: Yes.
• 56:45
  S2: Oh, and it's such a beautiful passage that I know
• 56:48
  S2: the plans I have for you, plans to give you,
• 56:50
  S2: to prosper you, not to harm you, to give you
• 56:52
  S2: hope in the future. That's what I have from memory.
• 56:55
  S2: So forgive me if I've not quoted it perfectly, but
• 56:57
  S2: know to speak to that one.
• 56:59
  S7: Well, first of all, let me confession. When I was
• 57:01
  S7: a pastor, I wrote birthday cards to every one of
• 57:03
  S7: my church, and one year I had this verse plastered
• 57:05
  S7: on every birthday card that I sent to everybody in
• 57:07
  S7: the congregation for their birthday. And I now realized that
• 57:10
  S7: that was wrong. So again, well-meaning people, people at graduation time,
• 57:15
  S7: they see this on a on a card they want
• 57:17
  S7: to give. And it sounds really, really wonderful because God
• 57:20
  S7: does generally want success for his for his children. But
• 57:24
  S7: really what this is, if you read it in context,
• 57:26
  S7: this is talking about the Israelites in Babylon. And so
• 57:30
  S7: their sentence has been served. They served their 70 years
• 57:33
  S7: in exile. My plans for you are to prosper you.
• 57:36
  S7: So you're going to go back. But it's not saying
• 57:39
  S7: every time you know everything is going to turn out
• 57:42
  S7: hunky dory, everything's going to be fine in this life
• 57:44
  S7: because sometimes we deal with the consequences or we just
• 57:47
  S7: live in a fallen world and things are not going
• 57:49
  S7: to be good.
• 57:50
  S2: Okay, this one just came in by text message. What
• 57:52
  S2: about I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me?
• 57:57
  S7: Well, you're an athlete, aren't you? You've probably.
• 57:59
  S2: Heard this. I was at one point in time that
• 58:01
  S2: might be generous to apply it to my current day state.
• 58:05
  S7: But this is very, very common. I remember back in Sydney, Australia,
• 58:09
  S7: in the Olympics, a diver, Laura Wilkinson, if I recall
• 58:13
  S7: her name right, every time she would do a platform dive.
• 58:16
  S7: And these are really, really challenging dives to do. She
• 58:19
  S7: would you could hear her recite when she's up there.
• 58:21
  S7: I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
• 58:23
  S7: And she won a gold medal. Wow. And so you think, oh,
• 58:25
  S7: that must be the secret. You've got to use this
• 58:28
  S7: as a kind of a way to kind of get
• 58:30
  S7: what you want. But that's not talking about, again, sports
• 58:34
  S7: or winning gold medals. Hey, if I were to go
• 58:36
  S7: up Mount Everest, hey, I can ski down Mount Everest.
• 58:39
  S7: You know, I can do all things through Christ. I'd
• 58:41
  S7: probably tumble in the first five feet and, you know,
• 58:44
  S7: be a mess by the time I would even get
• 58:47
  S7: halfway down the first kind of bend. And so I
• 58:50
  S7: can't do all things now. What Paul is saying in
• 58:54
  S7: the context of Philippians four is when he's doing ministry
• 58:57
  S7: for God, God will provide everything he needs. I can
• 59:00
  S7: do everything that God wants me to do for his glory.
• 59:03
  S7: And so it's not like saying, I can become an
• 59:05
  S7: Olympic athlete or I can, you know, you know, get
• 59:09
  S7: a million bucks by the time I'm 30 or whatever.
• 59:11
  S7: You know, I can't. You know, those are things that
• 59:14
  S7: you can't promise. But if you're in ministry, I can
• 59:17
  S7: do all things through Christ who strengthens me. That God
• 59:20
  S7: puts you in front of you, in front of you.
• 59:22
  S2: Okay. Now, this is one that I hear all the time.
• 59:26
  S2: And so this I want to tackle this one because
• 59:29
  S2: I often hear in services, and it can be a
• 59:32
  S2: powerful prayer meeting or a worship service. And people will say, well,
• 59:38
  S2: we're 2 or 3 are gathered. And the idea being
• 59:40
  S2: that since we are gathered together, whenever God's people gather,
• 59:45
  S2: there's an anointing, there's a blessing. There's a promise of
• 59:48
  S2: his presence. Again, the principle of it, certainly God is.
• 59:53
  S2: God is with us. God's with me, God's with you. Right?
• 59:55
  S2: But this idea that 2 or 3 are gathered, I
• 59:59
  S2: have that one is taken out of context quite a bit.
• 1:00:02
  S7: Oh, especially when you have small gatherings where you expect
• 1:00:05
  S7: more people to come. You say, well, okay, we got
• 1:00:07
  S7: 2 or 3 here. That's fine. That's got 2 or
• 1:00:09
  S7: 3 are gathered. You know, God's in our midst. Really.
• 1:00:12
  S7: If you look at that whole passage in Matthew 18,
• 1:00:14
  S7: it's really talking about doing something very, very challenging, which
• 1:00:17
  S7: is discipline, restoring and erring brother or sister. And I
• 1:00:21
  S7: think what the context here is saying, hey, remember when
• 1:00:24
  S7: you go, you go to them privately first. Then if
• 1:00:26
  S7: they don't listen to that, then you go with the group.
• 1:00:29
  S7: And I think in that setting, what Jesus is saying
• 1:00:32
  S7: in Matthew 18 is, hey, you go and do that
• 1:00:35
  S7: very challenging thing where 2 or 3 are gathered in
• 1:00:38
  S7: my name doing this, restoring a brother or sister. I
• 1:00:42
  S7: am right there with you. I want you to envision
• 1:00:44
  S7: me helping you to restore this fallen brother or sister. Wow.
• 1:00:48
  S7: That's powerful when you realize that's hard to do. Absolutely
• 1:00:52
  S7: do that. Well, that's what we're not talking about because
• 1:00:54
  S7: then it's like, well, if I'm not with you or somebody,
• 1:00:57
  S7: a 2 or 3, does that mean God's not in
• 1:00:59
  S7: their midst when I'm praying? Yeah. You know, so again,
• 1:01:01
  S7: you look at the flip side of that, what the
• 1:01:03
  S7: verse is not saying, and then you realize, oh, okay. Yeah,
• 1:01:06
  S7: that's probably not what this verse is saying is that
• 1:01:08
  S7: we need a small group in order to have God's
• 1:01:10
  S7: presence with us. No, I can be have God's presence
• 1:01:13
  S7: when I'm praying by myself.
• 1:01:15
  S2: Now, you've given a couple of when you're reading at home,
• 1:01:18
  S2: a couple of kind of tips and tricks. We like
• 1:01:20
  S2: to talk about that around here, but things that can
• 1:01:23
  S2: that can really help us. And one of them is
• 1:01:25
  S2: going to be to, to aim for reading things, not
• 1:01:28
  S2: just pulling out a verse here and there. So beyond
• 1:01:30
  S2: the context is important for sure, but training ourselves not
• 1:01:34
  S2: to pull out verses, but to actually read it as
• 1:01:37
  S2: it's intended, speak to that. And then a couple of
• 1:01:39
  S2: other tips.
• 1:01:40
  S7: Yeah, I mean, certainly read the whole book or read this,
• 1:01:43
  S7: especially the long passage or section at that. That verse
• 1:01:46
  S7: is in. Uh, I would say before I know there's
• 1:01:49
  S7: a lot of good Bible studies out there and they
• 1:01:51
  S7: go right quickly into doing, you know, kind of concordance
• 1:01:53
  S7: work and individual work. No, no, no, before you get
• 1:01:56
  S7: into that. And that can be really effective. But down
• 1:01:59
  S7: the road, read the passage ten times. That's probably going
• 1:02:02
  S7: to be more helpful for you to get the train
• 1:02:05
  S7: of thought of what the biblical author is trying to stress.
• 1:02:08
  S7: And that way then you're less likely to go astray
• 1:02:11
  S7: by doing that. So that's one the idea is, you know,
• 1:02:14
  S7: reading in, in a couple translations, listen to it orally.
• 1:02:18
  S7: I do this all the time now because there's so
• 1:02:19
  S7: many things where you can listen. I have audible and
• 1:02:22
  S7: I have a couple of translations of the Bible, and
• 1:02:25
  S7: when I'm drifting off to sleep, I'll put one of
• 1:02:26
  S7: those in and you know, I'll wake up in and
• 1:02:29
  S7: out and all of a sudden I'll hear, you know,
• 1:02:31
  S7: more the next 3 or 4 chapters down the road.
• 1:02:34
  S7: But it's great because it's consuming my mind with the
• 1:02:38
  S7: Word of God. And you're hearing it the way the
• 1:02:40
  S7: original audience heard it is through the ear gate rather
• 1:02:42
  S7: than through the eye gate. And so context the reading
• 1:02:46
  S7: of the passage over and over again in its entirety.
• 1:02:49
  S7: And now there's actually Bibles that you can buy without
• 1:02:52
  S7: chapter and verse numbers. That also can be somewhat problematic
• 1:02:55
  S7: if we think that, oh man, this verse has 60
• 1:02:57
  S7: verses in it, it's a long chapter. Well, this has
• 1:03:00
  S7: nothing to do with what the author is trying to
• 1:03:01
  S7: focus on, how long this particular chapter is. They didn't
• 1:03:04
  S7: even have chapter and verse numbers. So reading it like
• 1:03:07
  S7: we would, a normal piece of literature, I think helps
• 1:03:10
  S7: to go a long way towards keeping things in context.
• 1:03:12
  S2: Yeah. And one thing that I will add just from
• 1:03:15
  S2: my own personal experience is to don't get frustrated. Yeah.
• 1:03:20
  S2: This is as someone who, you know, I work at
• 1:03:22
  S2: Moody Radio, but I did not go to Bible school.
• 1:03:25
  S2: I was never formally trained. And so there's a lot
• 1:03:29
  S2: of areas where I feel like, oh my goodness, all
• 1:03:31
  S2: these people are so much smarter than me. They know
• 1:03:34
  S2: so much more of the Bible. And that can plague
• 1:03:36
  S2: many of us, but not to get frustrated, to be
• 1:03:39
  S2: faithful and diligent with God's Word and trust that he's
• 1:03:42
  S2: doing something in you, right? Even if you're feeling like
• 1:03:46
  S2: you're getting stuck in these passages where you're going, okay,
• 1:03:49
  S2: who is saying what? And what is this? Right. I mean,
• 1:03:51
  S2: wouldn't you, wouldn't you agree?
• 1:03:52
  S7: I totally agree. And this is where, again, when we
• 1:03:54
  S7: think about how we spend our leisure time, you know,
• 1:03:57
  S7: we can binge watch, you know, television programs on Netflix
• 1:04:00
  S7: or Prime or whatever else. And we never sit and
• 1:04:04
  S7: read this, the Bible for that length of time that
• 1:04:07
  S7: we can sit and watch several episodes of a show
• 1:04:09
  S7: over and over again. And the average time that we
• 1:04:12
  S7: watch an average film, which is about, you know, one
• 1:04:14
  S7: and a half to 2.5 hours. Yeah. So many books
• 1:04:17
  S7: of the Bible could be read during that same amount
• 1:04:20
  S7: of time. Not the whole thing, but just individual books.
• 1:04:22
  S7: You can read Matthew, in the same time that you
• 1:04:24
  S7: sit down and watch a film. So think about that
• 1:04:27
  S7: the next time you sit down. Listener, are you spending
• 1:04:30
  S7: quality time in God's Word? Just not just studying it,
• 1:04:33
  S7: but just reading it to allow the word of God
• 1:04:36
  S7: to just kind of, you know, kind of enter into
• 1:04:38
  S7: your mind and then you have better insights because you
• 1:04:41
  S7: have the context of the Word of God. And in
• 1:04:43
  S7: your mind.
• 1:04:44
  S2: Great conversation with Doctor Jim Coakley. I mentioned his book
• 1:04:47
  S2: 14 Fresh Ways to Enjoy the Bible. We have an
• 1:04:50
  S2: excerpt that he's made available for you. So just text
• 1:04:54
  S2: fresh to 800 555 7898. If you enjoyed this conversation,
• 1:04:59
  S2: you are going to love this resource. Just text fresh
• 1:05:02
  S2: to 805 557898.
• 1:05:06
  S1: Get to know the team behind the scenes. Follow Carl
• 1:05:09
  S1: and crew on Facebook and Instagram, making herself laugh no
• 1:05:14
  S1: matter who joins her. It's time for. Ali thinks it's funny. Yes.
• 1:05:20
  S2: Are you excited, Carl?
• 1:05:21
  S8: Oh, we need it.
• 1:05:23
  S2: Back for another round of Wednesday jokes for you. What
• 1:05:28
  S2: do you call. Um, well, first of all, do you
• 1:05:31
  S2: like potatoes before I before I give you what's your
• 1:05:34
  S2: favorite way to see potatoes Prepared.
• 1:05:38
  S8: O f fried in lard. Give them to me. Salted.
• 1:05:42
  S2: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, like like a diced potato. Like
• 1:05:46
  S2: you just fry the whole potato.
• 1:05:48
  S8: No French fries. Slice them up. Fry the whole potato.
• 1:05:51
  S9: I like the idea of just dropping a whole potato.
• 1:05:55
  S8: I shortcut this thing.
• 1:05:56
  S2: What about you, young thunder?
• 1:05:58
  S9: Yeah.
• 1:05:58
  S2: French fries. Uh! Super die. Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  S10: French fries.
• 1:06:01
  S9: What kind of French fries? Shoestring. Curly.
• 1:06:05
  S10: Okay.
• 1:06:06
  S2: Waffle fries are my favorite. Oh, yeah. But I digress.
• 1:06:09
  S2: So potatoes actually have different personalities. If you were to
• 1:06:12
  S2: sit down and talk to three potatoes, you would get
• 1:06:17
  S2: three totally different personalities.
• 1:06:19
  S8: And stuff here all the.
• 1:06:20
  S2: Time. You do. I mean, this is stuff you really
• 1:06:21
  S2: need to know. What do you call potato that has
• 1:06:25
  S2: a tendency toward being a little reluctant, a little reluctant potato,
• 1:06:31
  S2: also known as a hesitating.
• 1:06:37
  S9: I like hesitating. Do you? I do, I really do.
• 1:06:42
  S8: Oh come on.
• 1:06:43
  S9: That's super. Is incapable of liking it.
• 1:06:47
  S8: Hesitating. Oh, okay.
• 1:06:52
  S2: Glad Carl enjoyed.
• 1:06:53
  S8: That. Reluctant potato.
• 1:06:54
  S2: Yeah. Carl. Little hesitating.
• 1:06:56
  S8: Come on. That's outstanding.
• 1:06:58
  S9: It is good.
• 1:06:58
  S2: Next. Next up, a little. A little story time for you.
• 1:07:02
  S2: I took some vacation days, and I. I went in
• 1:07:05
  S2: for a deep tissue massage at one of those fancy spas,
• 1:07:08
  S2: you know, like, try to get some of that neck
• 1:07:11
  S2: and shoulder tension out. Because, man, a lot of times
• 1:07:15
  S2: sitting behind a mic, neck, shoulder muscles get a little tight.
• 1:07:18
  S2: So I, you know, I asked for the person with
• 1:07:20
  S2: like real strong hands because I want like a really
• 1:07:23
  S2: get in there and break up some of that tension. Yeah.
• 1:07:25
  S2: So I was a little surprised when the first thing
• 1:07:27
  S2: they did was sprinkle some cocoa powder on my shoulders.
• 1:07:31
  S2: It's like, this is a little strange. And then they
• 1:07:34
  S2: come at me with cheese.
• 1:07:36
  S8: Wow.
• 1:07:37
  S2: Mascarpone cheese. And I was really shocked. And then they
• 1:07:41
  S2: offered me a shot of espresso in the middle of
• 1:07:43
  S2: the massage. I didn't realize it was a tiramisu.
• 1:07:53
  S9: That's crazy.
• 1:07:55
  S2: That was a little crazy.
• 1:07:56
  S9: Oh, that's.
• 1:07:57
  S8: A.
• 1:07:57
  S2: Little.
• 1:07:57
  S8: Crazy. Around Mccready's barn on that. You know what she
• 1:08:00
  S8: got there?
• 1:08:01
  S2: I got there, I that one I thought was funny
• 1:08:03
  S2: because it's a little out of the box. Text jokes
• 1:08:06
  S2: to 805 557898. Go around Mccready's barn. It's worth it.
• 1:08:12
  S2: Text jokes to 805 557898. Just text jokes.
• 1:08:18
  S8: Hey, this is Carl with Carl and crew, and I'm
• 1:08:20
  S8: so grateful that you listened to this show cast. Thank
• 1:08:23
  S8: you mostly for being part of the boom crew as
• 1:08:25
  S8: we help you take your next step with Jesus, you're
• 1:08:28
  S8: a huge encouragement to us. We'll be here again live
• 1:08:31
  S8: every weekday morning from 5 to 9 a.m.. Godspeed.