Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | E5 Jonny Cobbold on mental health, mission alignment and leading with humanity
Transcript
- Adam Stacey: Great, really pleased to have Jonny on the Charity Changemakers podcast today. Thanks so much for joining us on the show. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, you're very welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I have a mega imposter syndrome, but I'm hoping I can do you justice. Adam Stacey: ⁓ well, no, not at all. I think actually when we put the shout out on LinkedIn, you were recommended to us. So, yeah, it's great to have you on the show. I love doing these shows where, let's be honest, we've had a 10 minute conversation a couple of months ago. And yeah, I love it when I don't really know the guests that well and get to know you through the show. exactly what we, yeah, obviously we want the listener to do today as well. So why don't you kick us off, Jonny, take a minute or so, introduce who you are. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah Adam Stacey: and what you do. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, cool. Johnny Cobbold, I'm a director of development at a brilliant mental health charity called Change Mental Health. We work right across Scotland, ⁓ supporting people with their mental health ⁓ and kind of everything that means. Being here for nearly three years now, director of development is one of those interesting roles that covers quite a lot of things that I'm sure we'll cover throughout the podcast today. ⁓ So, Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely will. like you say, director, director, it's always an interesting, held that title as well, it's always an interesting one where you pick ⁓ all sorts. So that's brilliant. ⁓ we've got these quickfire questions, ⁓ I say, opportunity to get to know you ⁓ little bit ⁓ better and stuff to cover before we get into ⁓ the stuff of the conversation. ⁓ So does a good weekend or a day off look like for you, Jonny? Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, Joe, so you shared some of these quickfire questions before today. So I have had a chance to think about it, which means that they're probably not going to be quickfire answers, apologies. this is a, this is when I was thinking about this one, it was interesting because, you know, people often think that a good day off or a good weekend is going to be something that's like slow paced and relaxing. But I actually really, really struggle with that. So for me, the kind of best day off or the best weekend is when I'm busy doing stuff. Like I love a lion, but once I'm up and the day's got going, I absolutely cannot just sit on the sofa. I just can't do it. So it's, whether it's going to classes with the kids, you know, taking this gymnastics or going to B &Q or being sent to the tip to take, you know, rubbish or whatever, or painting or anything like that is really great for me. And I think the reason for that, and this is something I've learned actually throughout my career, is that when I do nothing, I actually find it hard to switch, harder to switch off from work. If I'm doing nothing, my default in my brain is to go back to thinking about the stuff that I was doing yesterday in work. So keeping really, really busy for me is the best way to switch off and relax. So yeah. Adam Stacey: That's really, really interesting. And I think maybe pockets of that might come out in the conversation that we have through the podcast as well. So yeah, on this same train then, what's something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Yeah, of course. Absolutely. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah. So this can I do two? Is that all right? ⁓ So the first one, it's an unpopular one in my household, but it's Newcastle United. So I know I sound like a plastic Scouser, but I was born in the Northeast and I'm obsessed with football, obsessed with sport really, but Newcastle United has kind of, you know, it's been a huge part of my life. ⁓ Massive football fan. And it's like, for me, it's a really, really important, actually non-negotiable, which is why it's unpopular, non-negotiable bit of weekly escapism. It's like one of the only times that I can sit down on the sofa and my brain not default to work. So yeah, I'm obsessed with football. And the other one, ⁓ if anyone's seen it on my LinkedIn, I love fire pits. And like, to the point of sounding a bit dodgy, I absolutely just love fire. Just like everything about them. You know, just struggling to get them started because I'm a bit rubbish at that. Through to walking around the garden, collecting more sticks with my little lads. Adam Stacey: That's right, okay. Jonny Cobbold: just sitting there watching the flames and know up thinking of myself as a philosopher whilst looking into them. ⁓ just love fires, love fire pits, there's just something, I don't know, something primal and relaxing about them. So yeah, those two things, football and fires, not together. Well, not together ideally. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yep. Football on fire. There you go. Put it together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, no, that's right indeed. And Newcastle probably haven't really been on fire that much this season, have they? Jonny Cobbold: No, we've been struggling but yeah weird season. You're a Sheffield United fan aren't you? I did some LinkedIn stalking. so yeah so it could always be worse but yeah no we've not had a great season. I think there'll be lots of change in the summer I Yeah I reckon so. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's right indeed. I'm writing off this season as well. Yes, yeah, yeah. Watch this space. Yeah, that's great. And final question then, what's one thing, well final quickfire anyway, we're not doing the Shortwich podcast on record. What's one thing people always assume about your job that just isn't true? Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, so I'm going to give you loads of things if that's right, because I had a bit of fun with this question. first of all, I thought about ⁓ my experience, but then I thought it'd be interesting to ask some of our exec team, some of my team, and then I also asked my kids ⁓ they think I do. So yeah, think ⁓ one the things that, so personally, I think a lot of people often assume that my job and then maybe just working in charities more generally is like pretty quaint, know, pretty pretty chill, you know. stakes, almost that we, you know, it's almost like a hobby. And I think, you know, I think a lot of people probably ⁓ think, when they know that part of my role might include fundraising. I think they probably straight away jump to thinking that I'm knocking about most of the day walking down the street with a bucket. And like, there's nothing wrong with that. Like I have no problem with doing that occasionally. I wish it was something I did every day, but it's not. And actually, you know, to change mental health, most of the charities I work with. a huge hundreds of staff, multi-million pound budgets, really significant heavy work. And I think a lot of people often think that charities is just about the fundraising bit, just about the money and forget actually that what we do is support people. And in our case, it changed people who are sometimes incredibly vulnerable, often at the most difficult part of their life. And I don't think often people really, I think people don't often jump to the actual work that we do as a charity. But yeah, the soft, fluffy, quaint bit is something that I think people often think. So yeah, that's one for me. In terms of my team, some of them had the same experiences with that kind of soft and fluffy ⁓ and rainbows kind of perception. I asked our exec team, this is quite funny. So our finance director said that people often assume she can count, which is good. Our chief exec said people often assume that he is in charge or can kind of do what he wants. Apparently neither of those things are true. No comment. And yes, that was interesting. And then my kids. ⁓ I've got three kids. I've got Otterly who's four, Edie who's six and Arlo who's ⁓ I think I've got the ages right. ⁓ who's four. ⁓ asked her what I do for work. ⁓ actually did a recording, but I can send that to you after. ⁓ said that I take the bins out and I buy toys. And I think that's because when I go up to Edinburgh, I often bring a present back. But yeah, I take the bins out and I buy toys. That's what Austin thinks. Edie says that I go to Edinburgh, which is pretty true. ⁓ where our head office is. And Arlo, who's eight, nine, sorry, gave a very sensible question. ⁓ says that I work for a charity that helps people, which is a pretty nice way of summing up, actually. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It's amazing. Yeah. How are children? Yeah. Children. Yeah. My son's just turned 10 and yeah, he was describing to the other day to what I do is just, he finds people's finds people's in the charity sector. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. She changed the tagline on LinkedIn. you go. Got it. So yes, that's great. Good. Oh, Johnny, I appreciate you. Yeah. Taking the time to Jonny Cobbold: Yeah. Yeah, great. Yeah. Like in a nutshell, that's it, isn't it? Just like, you know, what I do is, we work for a charity that helps people. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Adam Stacey: I think through and answer those questions, it's ⁓ nice to get to get to know you a little bit better. We then sort of start off the podcast by always asking the question as to how people sort of ended up in the charity sector. It's very rare that people, know, set out with the ⁓ career path in mind at the very start of their career. So I'm always interested as to how people started in the sector. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, so like, I don't think I'm unique in the story I'm going to tell really. I finished uni and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I right the way through uni, I'd plan to finish it and then do a PGCE and train to be a teacher. And like, I necessarily passionate about being teaching. It's just something that fell into feel like the obvious next step. But when I finished uni, that just isn't what I wanted to do. It just didn't appeal to me. So I was one of those classic people that's looking at all the grad schemes, looking at all the things out there and going, God, what am going to do? And ended up, interestingly, falling into recruitment for about six months. But it was kind of high end headhunting exec recruitment. Also, it ⁓ kind couched me at the time. ⁓ And was the most miserable six months of my life. It's not lost on me that not all recruitment is created equal. This is the sort of recruitment that was not the good type. And there was one moment where about four months in, I was, you know, really, really trying to get some new clients on trying to figure out which employers I could try to tap up who were employing. So ⁓ ended up building some building ⁓ great rapport with this guy who was in his fifties. And I completely BSed him. So I told him this whole story that we had a client who was really interested in, in his skillset and, you know, built a load of trust. And I said, look, but be really useful to know who you're, you know, if you are actively looking for a job, whether you've interviewed him or else, et cetera. And it turns out he'd been interviewing with another really big organization. And I essentially mined this guy for that knowledge. We ended up getting the organization that he'd interviewed for as a client and putting a candidate who got the job that this guy was lined up for. And I remember going home that night and I was in tears. I was in tears. And by the way, that is not, it's just not aligned with who I am. It's not aligned with my value set, not aligned with like, you know, the way my mum and dad raised me. And I got home and I was like, I have just screwed over this dude for no other reason than money. And I handed him my notice, not long after. And I was like, that is not the world for me. By the way, Adam, I know that's not what you do. Yeah, yeah, no. Adam Stacey: That's right, indeed. Yeah, yeah. I'll put a footnote in the show notes. This is not how charisma works. Jonny Cobbold: I know it definitely isn't, this was 20 odd years ago now and some recruitment consultancies did work in that way. And that was a really, my first job and it was just such a powerful moment for me to go, right, that is, I need to do a job that I care about that does align with who I am, what's important to me and that kind of thing. And I ended up getting a job with a charity called Teach First, big education charity in England at the time they expanded. Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Jonny Cobbold: And then yeah, kind of, guess started off as a bit of a generalist who was, you know, somewhat capable, good at getting stuff done. And then over time, like both there and then in subsequent roles, kind of, you know, got slightly more specialized in a range of different things at different points, project management, then business development and then fundraising. And then guess as I became more senior, I probably got slightly more generalist. But I think, yeah, the, the kind of thread for me has been. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Jonny Cobbold: So I've actually worked in charities since I was like 22, so almost all of my career now. Generally in ones that are either in education or with children and young people and then latterly in mental health. And it feels actually with mental health and change mental health in particular that I've found an incredible fit both in terms of like the organization itself, its culture and that kind of thing, but also myself I've got quite a lot of lived experience with my own mental health. I've had some significant struggles in the past and I just yeah it feels right now there's a great fit between like the way that the organisation works and also what really matters to me. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And how, do you find that where you've got that real deep connection to the cause, ⁓ know, and I guess, you know, and that lived experience and carrying that into a leadership role within with, you know, and carrying that into work every day? How does that? Yeah, how does that work for you? Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, I don't know. I don't want to overplay it. don't think it makes a difference day by day in a very overt way. But I think it's a useful concrete rod that exists within you that if you've ever got any difficult decisions, you can go back to go and write what actually matters, what's my value set, and so on. So think it helps with that. think the other thing is, you know, The reason I also don't want to overplay it is that you know everyone's mental health issues or small Complex or less complex, know acute or whatever. They're very very different and know a change mental health. We support people who've got very very different often like much more acute mental issues than I've ever experienced ⁓ so I want to overplay necessarily, but like It is useful for me to have able to, in my own little way, have experienced what it looks like when your mental health's in a really bad place. I think it does help me with bit of empathy. I think I try to be as open as I can about that in a way that's useful for people, but again, without overplaying it, because there's nothing worse than if I was sitting down with someone who hears voices and I talk to them about when I was struggling with some really bad anxiety that it's their apples and oranges. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Jonny Cobbold: I it does help, I think it does help, only, like, maybe not. I don't know if I play it. Adam Stacey: Yeah, indeed. But that empathy for the cause and obviously the organisation that you work for, like you say, that real value alignment clearly gives that motivation into the day-to-day work. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, it does. think like one way it has really impacted me over the last year or so, by the way, this is not me trying to pitch what we do, but like it is important actually is one thing that our team's been looking at is how we expand some of our work into workplaces through training and various other bits and bobs. And the reason that's really important to me is because so the period in time, ⁓ period in my life when I had a really bad mental health episode was just before I joined Change Mental Health. ⁓ and to kind of paint you a bit of a picture what that looked like and I hope you don't mind me sharing this but like what that looked like was me having crippling anxiety that meant that when I wasn't on calls my hands were shaking I might occasionally be in tears I'd sat there in the evening like really struggling to know whether I wanted to go to work in the morning ⁓ there one Sunday night when I spoke to my wife and said look do do I need to call a doctor and actually like I didn't join Change Mental Health as a ⁓ service user, but there was like working at Change Mental Health was in itself incredibly rehabilitative. The culture was incredible. The support I got from my line manager, not around my mental health, but in terms of like support, stretch, challenge, ⁓ all those sort of things showed me that actually work. And when organisations get their culture right in particular, can have a hugely impactful. The culture was incredible. The support I got from my line manager, not around my mental health, but in terms of like support, stretch, challenge, ⁓ all those sort of things showed me that actually work. And when organisations get their culture right in particular, can have a hugely impactful. impact on people's mental health and wellbeing. So I'm really passionate about, if we're a mental health charity, how can we actually work with workplaces to help them get that right for people who may already be struggling or who might not be struggling, but if they get their culture right, they can stop them ever struggling too. So yeah, that's something that's, I suppose, really directly impacted our work here and my work here. impact on people's mental health and wellbeing. So I'm really passionate about, if we're a mental health charity, how can we actually work with workplaces to help them get that right for people who may already be struggling or who might not be struggling, but if they get their culture right, they can stop them ever struggling too. So yeah, that's something that's, I suppose, really directly impacted our work here and my work here. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Do you think, I mean, did you sort of feel a pressure to sort of, I guess, hide those mental health challenges, like the anxiety that you were showing from in previous places? Jonny Cobbold: think it's difficult, isn't it? I'm pretty hard on sleeve at the best of times. I'm not very good at hiding those sorts of things. guess as I've become more senior and more of a leader, guess, there does come a responsibility about how and when you share things like this with people because there's a really fine line between ⁓ to stigma bust by being open. there's a very fine line between doing that, getting it right, but also oversharing to the point where people are uncomfortable, they feel burdened, they don't know what to do and so on. So ⁓ I guess sometimes that's been quite a difficult balance to find. But think probably, I've probably overshared more often than not. And I've tried to learn not to. Adam Stacey: I guess my question would be about, you know, that lived lived experience, which like you say, you don't want to don't want to over overplay, but how do you think that impacts or has changed the way that you lead? Because you've been in senior role for a little while now. Yeah, it's sort of been a difference from like before before and after in that sense. Jonny Cobbold: Like I think that definitely has actually, I'm really lucky to have an executive coach. And I think my executive coach has a, she's called Hillary. She's incredible. She has a really funny dual role between being like a traditional coach, but also a bit like a therapist. although she'd probably tell me off for saying that, cause she's absolutely not a therapist, but she's helped me work through and reflect on a lot of different things about myself as a leader, but also some of that lived experience and how those things interplay. I think, yeah, there has been a big change. think one of the biggest things is that, ⁓ I think although ⁓ work now ⁓ busy, at times stressful, ⁓ at times you have to work incredibly long hours, I think more than ever before, I've really, really strived to have good work-life balance. it's easy, it's really, at the surface, it doesn't really mean very much when you say that, but like what that means for me in practice is that I, in quite a rigid way, as much as I possibly can do try to switch off at five o'clock. can't switch my brain off at five o'clock, but ⁓ can physically close my laptop at five o'clock. think working from home sometimes can make that more difficult, but sometimes for me, the way our family set up is actually quite easy because I have to close my laptop at five to go and get the kids from after school club. ⁓ that work life balance for me more than ever has become really, really important. ⁓ think the other thing is that, you know, having experienced that incredible low with my mental health, that gave me... ⁓ incredible perspective about what actually is really important and again don't get me wrong like our work is important ⁓ care deeply about my job I care deeply about my team I care deeply about the work that we do and the people we support but that has to live in a box that can't take over my whole life because if it does the kids my kids don't get the best of me ⁓ I go to the gym I don't ⁓ so Yeah, that whole kind of period of time taught me the real, real important, real importance actually of trying to be able to, to have separation and also to make sure that the different parts of all of my life get the right amount of mental attention. what that means is more often than not, trying to make sure that work doesn't get too much of my mental attention all the time. ⁓ that's fluid. Sometimes it'll go up, sometimes it'll go down, but it can't always have all of it. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah, sure. And, yeah, I'd be interested in hearing some of the ways in which you've tried to manage that. I guess having three kids under the age of nine, like you say, Because, know, they clearly, you know, they're demanding time and attention. yeah, and particularly in this sort of working, well, not just working from home, but I mean, you're managing, you know, a director for an organization based in a different country. Yeah, and, you know, working remotely and managing all that. So yeah, how do you kind of get Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, that helps. Yeah. Adam Stacey: Chuckle my old Johnny. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, like sometimes pretty badly, probably. Sometimes pretty well, sometimes pretty badly. Do you know, it's a really funny thing when I talked to people about working for a Scottish charity, despite living near Liverpool, people are always like really confused about how it would work and so on. But it's actually been an incredibly, it's actually been an incredible, that setup has worked incredibly well for me and actually being able to do work life balance because yeah, what it means is that I do. drop the kids off at school every day because my wife's a teacher, this makes it really easy. I can drop the kids off, I can still be back at my desk at 8.45, well in time for when I want to start my working day. But it means that I can't start the working day before then. I just can't, it's not an option. And by the same token, at the end of the working day, know, three or four days a week, the kids are in after school club until half four, five. I have no option but to close my laptop and go and get them. That doesn't mean I don't open it again. later in the evening sometimes. Sometimes I do, you you get busy, but like more often than not, I haven't got the option not to. So yeah, just like the actual setup ⁓ working almost entirely remotely has worked really well for just some of those inbuilt boundaries that just exist in life. So that's been quite good. Like there's cons, you know, ⁓ I'm someone loves people. I love being around people. ⁓ I miss able to just not... knock down the road and be in the office. So when I do go up to Edinburgh, you know, two or three times a month for a couple of days here and there, I absolutely love it. love being around people. And I do sometimes sometimes miss it. I miss it a lot. But I think the positives outweigh the benefits. And again, it's like one of those things that couldn't have worked pre-COVID. It just wouldn't have been the thing. ⁓ you know, most my team is spread all over the place across Scotland. So whether I lived in Edinburgh or not, I'd still be meeting them on teams the vast majority of the time anyway. So it works pretty well. Adam Stacey: reality. And I guess one of the things you've, you know, you talked about with Change Mental Health was about its really strong culture. You know, I guess more and more organisations are working in this remote, remote way now. Yeah, how do you instill that across the team that spreads, like you say, all over the place? What are the things that you're doing to, you know, make sure that you keep that positive team dynamic and culture across the organization? Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, well, so I think a few different things there. ⁓ like I'm always really careful ⁓ not overplay my own skill here on my own strength. I don't think, you know, I think I've got a wonderful team. I'm really lucky with who's in the team. ⁓ in many ways, you know, my role as ⁓ leader in that team, yeah, I have some impact on the culture, but actually everyone else in the team has as much, probably significantly more impact than me on how culture in our team operates. So I don't want to overplay kind of my influence there. think the other thing to say is that kind of the culture is not, it's not mono across the whole organization. It'll be different in every single different team in some places in the organization, it'll be better than other places or different. But I think for me, when I think about why I want the culture to be in my team and across Change Mental Health and how I think it is. It's kind of aspirational. way that when we were thinking, we would just gone through the process of setting our income projections for the next year and big and they're punchy. But what want my team to think about when they see those projections and targets is like the big shiny light in front of them. That's an amazing thing to target rather than a tiger that's chasing them. ⁓ Like that's I want them to think about it. Cause those two things feel very different, don't they? ⁓ And I think that. That in a nutshell is how I want our culture to be. It's aspirational. It's kind of enthusiastic about what we can achieve rather than fearful about what would happen if we don't achieve it. Yeah, and, ⁓ know, culture development and all that sort of thing, it never really stops. It's not static. You can't kind of forget about it one day and assume it's always going to be okay. It's like something you have to really actively work on all the time. Something you have to be quite responsive to because ⁓ things People are people. There's a real human element and it's not always predictable. So, yeah. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you need to be quite deliberate in finding space and time for the team to come together. think that's my reflection, think, on working in a remote organisation, even though we're quite small. can find in an online world, it's all very agenda driven or meeting after meeting after meeting and actually just that being together, like you say, what you miss. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, I think so. again, like this isn't something we've got, we've, we've always got right. ⁓ but yeah, we do, we do have to be deliberate. ⁓ and there's, there's a few things here. so we have our, we have our team meetings, once a week, we have kind of smaller team meetings that work around the edges there. And then we also have this by way meetings all the time, you know, it's like, but then also kind of meetings that aren't team meetings where it's smaller groups of people who are working on stuff that come together to work on stuff and like being as deliberate as you can about all those things is important. We've just started last week actually we've just diarized every two months a half day together in person which will bring everyone ⁓ a central point and where we'll work on a whole range of different things. The next one in a few weeks is around kind of the year ahead everyone's going to come with a like ⁓ to present what their work looks like the rest of year and that kind of thing. ⁓ So yeah we need to be deliberate. I guess another thing for me and this is something that I've learned as as a, guess as a leader and again, it always feels a weird saying that, but it's something I have learned is that, ⁓ and I don't know whether it's like my personality or whatever, but you know, for the longest time, I felt like I needed to be involved in everything. It's like, you know, all team meetings or every time the team came together, like whether it was in the whole team or as sub categories of the team, whatever, I always felt like I needed to be part of it. and actually I really don't. ⁓ I really, really don't, ⁓ especially as our team is growing in both size and variety of work and all that sort of thing. It's not necessarily useful for me to be involved in everything and actually stepping away and allowing those guys to work together to figure out how to problem solve, how they work together without me telling them the solutions to their problems and all that sort of thing is really important. And yeah, it's, it's not always easy to, kind of have that kind of standoff. approach. Adam Stacey: And is that something that you've just learned through experience, do you think, along the way? Or maybe it's something that Hilary's pointed to in the other video. ⁓ Jonny Cobbold: It's definitely something that Hillary and I have covered. Yeah. Yeah, I think it is something that's come through experience. And I think, you know, it's interesting because one of the things you do with coaching is that you dive into why is it that I feel like that? What is it personally that drives certain behaviors? And for me, there's a couple of things here. So in terms of why I would always want to be involved in stuff, OK, what's the reason there? Is it because I don't trust people? No, it's not. Is it because I feel like I need to show my value? sometimes is it because actually there's a real need and there's a capacity squeeze and I do need to be involved sometimes is that there's a whole load of reasons why sometimes you might need to be involved I guess the thing that I've you know come to learn is that you need to be really conscious about these sort of things because you know there might be a period of time where yeah okay we might be down a member of staff we've we've not had a grants and trust manager for a couple of a couple of weeks And that's meant that, I do need to be quite hands-on with writing grant applications and responding to tenders and that kind of thing. But it's making sure that when that situation has changed, that I quite deliberately step away. And yeah, think that's, you know, it's okay to be quite hands-on, but it's also very important to know when it's time to step back. And I think just trying to be very mindful and I guess quite reflective and responsive to things that, you know, it's an effort like... every day is very different and it's ever changing and need to be really mindful of it. So that's like terrible philosophy but yeah. Adam Stacey: Yes. Well, no, no, I don't think so. It's, you know, ⁓ always really interested in this. So, you know, the things that have helped people develop their career along, ⁓ know, along the, ⁓ along the way. mean, obviously you've talked about coaching a couple of, couple of times in the conversation as you reflect on career today, is that ⁓ that you, ⁓ know, would fall back on the same was, has been a really sound, sound investment has really helped you develop individually and also, ⁓ you through your career as well. Jonny Cobbold: Mm. Yeah, I would think I think so. Yeah, it really has. And so I've worked with Hillary. So she's she's the same coach for about 14 years. ⁓ But but not not not the whole time. So we've kind of gone in peaks and troughs and sometimes I've not needed to work with her. Sometimes I have. the focus of that that coaching has changed really dramatically over time. You know, at the start of our career, that coaching was ⁓ very much about, know, how how can I progress? ⁓ Adam Stacey: All Jonny Cobbold: You know, I really want to progress. I want to become more senior, which is how I felt at the time Like what are the ways that I can you know develop and influence those around me and all that And think Hilary probably in a very smart way through excellent questioning helped me navigate that in a slightly more mature way than maybe I was automatically thinking ⁓ but over time Yeah, the coaching's evolved, you know when there's You know as I've become more senior it's it's that coaching's been really helpful for me to figure out what sort of Adam Stacey: Yes. Jonny Cobbold: manager I want to be, then what sort of leader I want to be, what side of manager and leader I want to be. And then, you know, in the last couple of years, it's like, what sort of exec leader do I want to be? And I that's, ⁓ yeah, has been hugely powerful for me to help me, like, unpick the alphabetic spaghetti that is your brain. And it's also, you know, I think, ⁓ and sure a lot of people generally, but also a lot of leaders feel this, like, we all have a huge amount of self doubt most of the time. And that doesn't go away just because you're more senior. In some ways, like, you know, the imposter syndrome and the little imposter in your head can get louder. And coaching for me has been really, really helpful to, in a slightly slower paced way, unpick the alphabet spaghetti, kind of unpick the things that maybe I was questioning about decisions I've made or things that I was struggling with. it's helped me to give myself a bit of grace often than not. So yeah, I'm a huge advocate for it, but I think it probably, ⁓ it almost certainly comes down to the quality of the coach, the relationship you've got, and like your willingness to engage with a coach openly. ⁓ Like is only ⁓ useful you give the right things into it and you offer the right kind of thought and introspection. ⁓ It's useful if you don't. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you're right. And I think we've had a number of guests that have come on that have talked about the power of coaching. I think my reflection on that and the conversations that I've had actually is, you know, as people get into more senior roles and life becomes busier and obviously, you know, just alongside that, but juggling all of the personal circumstances. I think one of the things coaching does is it builds in that reflection time into people's. people's diaries, which I think, you know, actually is so, so important when you're in a senior leadership role to be able to just, yeah, to try and step back a little bit, isn't it? And just, yeah, reflect on some of those, again, some of the details, some of the, you know, some of that bigger picture as well. But that's the stuff that I think can get lost in the busyness of a senior, I mean, not that any role goes to the sector's busy. I think there's value in coaching from, you know, from starting your career right through to being a chief. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think, yeah, just you've just characterized it absolutely perfectly for me, I think. And think the thing that I ⁓ really about coaching in particular is that it really helps me to understand what's actually going on. Again, whether that's big or small, it's kind of going, OK, what is like what is actually going on? ⁓ Like is making me think like this? What is you know, what is it that I'm uncertain about really, you know, et cetera? ⁓ And not something that comes out. one coach in question, it's normally something that comes out 25-30 minutes into a session and it's often very unexpected but almost always incredibly useful. yeah, huge applicant for it ⁓ and Hilary Wilson in particular, wonderful coach. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, great. Okay, well, yeah, there's probably some googling going on as we as we as we speak. So that's great. Good. Johnny, look, when people come on this podcast, always want to give them the opportunity to talk about the charity, the work that the charity does and ways in which, you know, it might be the first time that people are hearing about change mental health about ways in which they can get involved and support support the work. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, give me a timeline. How long have I got, Adam? Should I do it and try to do like an elevator? Like an elevator, 60 seconds. Okay. Yeah, so Change Mental Health. We're a mental health charity. Work just across Scotland. Work with about 12,000 people a year. Been around for 40 odd years. Started life as the Scottish Schizophrenia Fellowship, which is very hard to say. ⁓ became Supporting Mind Scotland. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yeah, go for the elevator pitch. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Jonny Cobbold: people that are in Scotland, Supporting Mind Scotland is probably a name they're familiar with and we rebranded to become Change Mental Health I think three or four years ago now. And yeah we support people and work with people across the widest range of things you could imagine when it comes to mental health, know people who might be unemployed because and you know it could be because the primary barrier to that is anxiety, depression, ⁓ right through to people who experience things like psychosis or hear voices or maybe experiencing suicidal thoughts or might have been bereaved by suicide. And so much in between. ⁓ We do lots of work kind of one-to-one in person. ⁓ That's like really localised in communities up and down Scotland, specifically across rural Scotland and the Highlands and Islands. And then we also have a whole range of national services. But thing that I really, really love about Change One's Health, and I've mentioned it a few times as our culture, ⁓ we quite an interesting space in the mental health. sector in Scotland. the third largest charity, so the two biggest are Penumbra ⁓ ⁓ H, two brilliant charities. They're huge, they're behemoths and we're a bit smaller than those, so we're a you six million pound charity. So kind of big-ish, but the thing that I love is that we're still small enough to spin on a dime and like we pride ourselves on being innovative and being the sort of organization who when people approach us with an idea or approaches with a problem or a challenge. Like our first thought is to go right. How can we say yes? Like our starting point is how can we say yes? Is there a way we can do this? And there's just something that's really, really powerful about that. ⁓ yeah, we're really aspirational, not because we want to grow our size and income, but because there's such huge need out there and we'd love to grow our impact. So brilliant charity to work for. I that we'll get bigger and bigger over the next couple of years. terms of how people can work with us, there's a whole load of ways like people in Scotland know of a need, ⁓ know, there's a huge need around mental health in their community, in their that is not being met, tell us and we will if there's a way that we can do something to support it. But then equally, you ⁓ we're really excited to growing our income and fundraising and development kind of capacity as an organization. We've grown over the last four or five years from a three million pound turnover charity to a six million pound turnover charity. So we're kind of growing and we're healthy. But that's without really having a really established kind of fundraising team, which we now have. So yeah, if people want to work with us to, you know, if there's any corporates out there, any businesses that care deeply about mental health, we'd love to work with you. We've just... become Edinburgh Airport's charity partner of year, which is very exciting. St. Andrews University's charity partner just got announced this week. So we're getting better and better at that sort of thing. ⁓ And the final one, I know you're to stop me, but the final one ⁓ is ⁓ we you know, last year we launched workplace training and I'm really, really passionate about it. I think we must have delivered training to about 500 people last year in our first year. ⁓ It's been successful. ⁓ Adam Stacey: for him. Jonny Cobbold: you know, any organization, large or small, any sector, if you think you and your staff could benefit from some mental health training of any kind, get in touch. We'd love to work with you. We don't want cost to be a barrier. Generally, we do charge people, but if there's a way that we can avoid that, we will try. training around mental health. If that appeals to you, get in touch with us. Adam Stacey: And we'll make sure that there's some links through to the website in the Shane Axe as well so people can click through. Johnny, I'm also conscious as well that, know, part of the conversation, you've been really open and honest with us and shared some of the struggles that you've gone through. I'm conscious that a lot of our listeners today are going to be senior leaders in the charity sector. You know, if there is someone who's maybe in a place that you were describing that you were in earlier in the conversation. whether it's anxiety or struggles with mental health and not knowing really where to turn and bearing in mind I guess our listeners are all over the UK, there be a recommendation or a place that you would or or organisation that they should ⁓ turn or a good first step? Jonny Cobbold: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I mean, I would always say ⁓ everyone's situation is different. Like for me, going to my GP was great. And that's not always easy for some people and so on, but like it's a great starting point. ⁓ mental health is at a point where you think actually you could do with some help, could do a talk to someone, ⁓ if you can get an appointment with your GP. They're incredible generally. ⁓ that would be ⁓ first down point. And then there's some other organisations. There's a brilliant organization called Hub of Hope that's actually based in Liverpool. got an incredibly, they've got a brilliant directory of mental health organisations across England. ⁓ So you're in England, England and Wales, I think that could be a great place to go. ⁓ Change health, I've got directory of places you can turn to as well. So yeah, have a Google, there's lots of charities out there that can point you in the right direction. But I on a personal level, and again, this won't be appropriate for everyone because if your mental is the point where it's quite acute, you should go to a GP. ⁓ But if you're still at the point where you think, actually, maybe I want to try doing some things myself, if you can, take some time to think about what you at your best looks like, you at your healthiest looks like, and the things that you might be doing. So for me, when I'm at my best physically and mentally, that's when I'm exercising regularly. It's when I'm getting out every day to take the dog for a walk, sometimes twice and having some fresh air. It's when I'm having a fire pit. it's when I'm closing my laptop at five o'clock. So like going through the process of thinking about, what is my life like when I'm well, when I'm happy? And then thinking, okay, are there any of those things I could do? And again, that won't work for everyone. ⁓ you're ⁓ in a great place, it's not always easy to make those sensible, pragmatic decisions, but like can sometimes be a good place to start for some people. Adam Stacey: I appreciate you sharing that really helpful ⁓ insight and ⁓ I thought it was an important question to ask in what we've covered and again I'm really grateful for the openness that you've come into this conversation with. If we can finish off with a question for you, as you reflect on your career today, what's one lesson that you've learned ⁓ hard way that shaped the that you are today? Jonny Cobbold: Well, I think it shaped the leader that I want to try and continue to become. Cause like if you were to ask my team, they'd say, yeah, Johnny's not very good at this yet. I think one of the big lessons for me is that kind of personality, energy and enthusiasm, like they're great. They will only get you so far as a leader and as a manager. ⁓ and actually there comes a point when what people really, really want is calm, consistent clarity and like doing the small boring nuts and bolts. write consistently. for me that means, know, it can be great having, you know, regular one-to-ones that are enthusiastic and aspirational and all that sort of thing. ⁓ like if you aren't uploading your one-to-one notes to Breathe HR, ⁓ if you are not having your one-to-ones every week because something comes up, or if you're not doing those nuts and bolts right, you stop to be a kind of consistent leader that people can rely on. So yeah, the big lesson for me is... do some of the boring nuts and bolts of management and leadership. Like put a lot of attention to doing those things right because that'll make you a reliable leader that people can trust. Adam Stacey: journey, right, Johnny? Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, yeah, it is. But it's been useful for me because like, you I, for the first half of my career in particular, I was like, yeah, I can get by on energy and enthusiasm and building great relationships with people. But as you become more senior that like those, whilst those things are still important, what people do really want from you is that consistency and reliability. And it took me a while to realize that. And it meant that probably, you know, some of the people I managed earlier in my career got a bit of a raw deal. They didn't get a consistent, reliable manager. And actually being a consistent, reliable manager who does the boring stuff right is just powerful. Adam Stacey: Well, Jonny, I really appreciate, well, not just that insight, but the insights that you brought through the whole of the conversation. It's been great to have you on the podcast. It feels like one of those that we should follow up in a year or so's time just to see how things are progressing. Because yeah, it's been really, really, really good conversation. But we'll make sure that obviously you and the organization are tagged and the links that we've said that we've shared in case people want to get in touch or if they questions, then I'm sure they will. But yeah, like I say, Jonny, thank you so much for your openness today and for coming on the show. Jonny Cobbold: You're really welcome. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me and for kind of giving me a platform to chat on. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, brilliant. Well, I'm really pleased. I can't remember who it was that recommended you, but we'll make sure I seek them out and give them a thank you because, like I say, really enjoyed the conversation and look forward to seeing how things develop for you. Jonny Cobbold: Yeah, that's great. Super, right, thanks so much. Have a lovely rest of the day.