Latest / Deep Transformation / Midwifing the Diamond Approach: How the Teaching Found and Transformed Hameed Ali & Karen Johnson

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Midwifing the Diamond Approach: How the Teaching Found and Transformed Hameed Ali & Karen Johnson · Deep Transformation

• 0:25
  I'm delighted to welcome you to the first episode of the Jeweleded Path series with Karen Johnson and A.
• 0:31
  H.
• 0:31
  Almaas, AKA Hameed Ali, co founders of the Diamond Approach and the Ridwan School.
• 0:37
  These conversations are drawn from Karen's autobiography, the Jeweled Path, which covers the beginnings of a spiritual school and what it was like to be a part of the birthing of the Diamond Approach Spiritual Path.
• 0:51
  Welcome to Deep Transformation, Self, Society, Spirit, Life enhancing, paradigm rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists with Dr.
• 1:02
  Roger Walsh and John Dupuy.
• 1:07
  I'm Roger Walsh and we have the pleasure of having with us two guests today.
• 1:13
  Over the last year we've been dialoguing with Hameed Ali, who was a founder of the Diamond Approach work and we have gone through.
• 1:22
  Hameed has presented an overview of this school, this spiritual path.
• 1:29
  And today we have the extraordinary privilege of also having Karen Johnson, a co founder of this remarkable path.
• 1:37
  And Karen is the author of an amazing book, the Jeweleded Path, subtitled the Biography of the Diamond Approach to Inner Realization.
• 1:49
  It's an amazing book in many ways.
• 1:52
  It's part biographical, it's part autobiographical, and it's part of biography of the revelations that led to the Diamond Approach.
• 2:02
  So it's many things and it's very rich.
• 2:06
  As John and I got into it, the more we got into it, the more we realized just how much there was in this book.
• 2:11
  And so today we are just delighted to have Karen with us.
• 2:16
  And let me say that in asking a first question, Karen, your description is unique in at least two ways in spiritual literature, as far as I can see.
• 2:27
  First, because most accounts of the founding of a spiritual tradition are written often generations later by followers.
• 2:40
  So it's unique that you're giving us a contemporary account of the birth of a new tradition.
• 2:47
  And second, it's remarkable and unique in that this path was birthed by two people working together who resonated with and facilitated each other's openings and discoveries.
• 3:01
  So perhaps we could begin by you saying something about, in retrospect, what do you think it was about your individual qualities and the quality of the relationship you held that allowed you to be the vessels for this new
• 3:16
  transmission.
• 3:17
  That's a very big question.
• 3:19
  But I'll begin with saying that I think the actual initiate was Hameed, that he was the one that actually began to have the experiences, the insights and waiting and simmering with it, and then began to share those.
• 3:42
  And that's when me and friends and so on started to get engaged.
• 3:49
  And I just stayed as a close member of that little tribe.
• 3:56
  But Hameed was really this.
• 3:58
  I kept seeing him as this diamond spearhead into the world.
• 4:03
  And.
• 4:04
  And as we got closer and as time went on, I became more and more engaged, involved, and participating.
• 4:12
  And I think you'll read in the book when that took hold and when it started to elaborate itself through me as well.
• 4:21
  And then the interaction and communication began to be more and more mutual as time went on.
• 4:31
  But he was really the instrument at first.
• 4:35
  But it's hard to say, you know, who is, who's not.
• 4:39
  Hameed never owned it as his own.
• 4:41
  He took it as the teachings coming through.
• 4:45
  And it's needing voice, it's needing awareness and consciousness to articulate, systematize, synthesize, you know, bring it into some kind of a clarity to be able to be spoken and transmitted.
• 5:02
  But he never and still doesn't see it as his.
• 5:06
  And I feel the same that there's instruments for this to come through, there's vessels, and there's many now that are really being able to live and hold and articulate the teaching.
• 5:19
  So that's the beauty of it.
• 5:21
  But the relationship I feel we have with was really a beautiful beginning.
• 5:29
  Just as we met, there was something there that I knew.
• 5:35
  So whatever that was, feels like that was the spark of the teaching that was recognized in each other.
• 5:42
  I never would have thought it then.
• 5:44
  I never would have said it that way.
• 5:47
  I just saw that smile, and my heart opened, and it was lovely.
• 5:53
  And I didn't see him again for several years.
• 5:56
  Yeah.
• 5:57
  That one meeting in your place in Oakland.
• 5:58
  You write about the book.
• 6:00
  Yeah.
• 6:01
  So that was a moment that was like, unlike any other moment in my life.
• 6:07
  And at the time, I was very shy.
• 6:11
  I didn't make eye contact with people.
• 6:13
  I just was hiding behind a curtain of hair.
• 6:18
  But he walked in.
• 6:20
  I heard that kerplunking of the crutch.
• 6:23
  I looked up, and he was standing right above me.
• 6:26
  I was on the ground, on the floor, on the rug in our living room, my living room at the time.
• 6:33
  And I looked up, and there was just this skinny guy with straggly black hair, with a smile that reached beyond his face, just gleaming.
• 6:45
  So kind of innocent and open, and no one had ever felt that way.
• 6:52
  To me, it was the beginning of a lot of things.
• 6:55
  So you could look at the way the roles had changed and evolved and all of that.
• 7:02
  But there was something that was precious and present from the start.
• 7:07
  I asked Hameed early on in our conversations, why you, Hameed?
• 7:11
  Why did this stuff come from you?
• 7:12
  And he said, I had loving parents I was like, what a beautiful answer.
• 7:15
  It really stuck with me.
• 7:17
  I think that's a level of humility that he has.
• 7:21
  I mean, I think a lot of people have loving parents and therefore have healthy structures and are open and have more of the goodness coming through and all of that.
• 7:31
  I think there was a need for the teaching to find its way.
• 7:37
  And sometimes I see it like the way there's water under the earth and it finds its way through the correct dirt and the correct path upward and starts to have a stream and it just finds its way.
• 7:53
  And I feel like the teaching does that, that it found him not as a chosen or something very.
• 8:03
  He had somehow the right soul, the right openness, the right timing.
• 8:10
  Something was available and it found its way.
• 8:15
  I mean, who knows?
• 8:15
  The why questions are difficult ones to answer.
• 8:19
  The fact that it happened that way is the blessing.
• 8:23
  And it happened not just through Hameed, but as it's evolved through your mutual facilitation.
• 8:32
  So there was something.
• 8:34
  Something going on there between you and with you.
• 8:37
  And part of it is clearly, is that both of you had a profound dedication to inner work and to truth, to exploring, to opening, to awakening.
• 8:49
  And that, as you describe in the book, endless hours of conversation and co exploration.
• 8:55
  So maybe you could say something about that.
• 8:58
  That was effortless.
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  There was a draw.
• 9:00
  And that's part of the feeling that was there at that first meeting was a draw.
• 9:06
  And it wasn't like I pondered it for years and wondered if I'd ever meet this person again.
• 9:11
  But when I saw him again after a couple of years, there was a feeling of draw, of an energy.
• 9:19
  So as we got to know each other and as life went on and we ended up living together in Colorado, we just wanted to be together as friends, as whatever it was.
• 9:32
  I'd go off to my house, cleaning jobs, and I couldn't wait to get back.
• 9:36
  So there was just this draw.
• 9:38
  It was effortless and there was curiosity and interest and learning about each other, our histories, but also find just curious about what we were experiencing, things that he was looking at and thinking about.
• 9:52
  And I was just fascinated.
• 9:55
  It was effortless.
• 9:56
  It wasn't like a discipline that we had to try to sit and.
• 10:01
  Okay, now we're going to inquire.
• 10:03
  No, it was like natural.
• 10:05
  It was easy.
• 10:06
  It was effortless.
• 10:07
  And as experiences started to show up, they were just compelling us to understand them.
• 10:14
  It was like being drawn into a vortex.
• 10:18
  It felt like an effortless move, like moving down a stream and getting into the rapids and just letting it take us wherever it took us.
• 10:27
  And this has both a personal and significance and a significance for the tradition here.
• 10:33
  But then there's also a larger cultural significance in that.
• 10:37
  There's a lot of talk these days about relationship as a spiritual path.
• 10:41
  But you did it, and you did it in a way.
• 10:44
  The two of you did it in a way which allowed this new teaching to come forth.
• 10:51
  And in some ways, you are both, as you describe.
• 10:54
  You're both instruments or receptacles for this transmission.
• 11:01
  There's clearly something about both your own inner readiness and your dedication.
• 11:07
  Plus this chemistry, spiritual chemistry, that just allowed it to flow through you.
• 11:14
  I was thinking about that, Ann, a great Beatles fan.
• 11:18
  And you know, the Beatles, these four lads from Liverpool just came together.
• 11:22
  And there was this incredible explosion of creativity.
• 11:26
  You know, these four, you know, working class guys.
• 11:29
  And seven years they did their whole opus.
• 11:32
  And it reminded me, when I was listening to you guys, when you started in that deep exploration.
• 11:37
  I mean, the lights were going on and all these revelations were coming through.
• 11:41
  It's just, you know, sometimes the right people get together in history.
• 11:45
  You have 5th century Athens.
• 11:46
  You have the Golden Age of Islamic 800, 1100 in Baghdad, where all these amazing things happened.
• 11:53
  And then Paris and London and even the 60s and the 70s too, in the Bay Area.
• 11:59
  These things just came together.
• 12:01
  The stars were in alignment.
• 12:03
  To me, it's very, very exciting to see, you know, to have you guys here and just talk about it.
• 12:08
  Well, one of the important things I think that you bring up, too, is about this path that does bring out the possibilities of relationship.
• 12:18
  That it has a personal element.
• 12:21
  And that personal element is a true person.
• 12:25
  Not the person of history, not the person of ego structure.
• 12:30
  But also not dismissing ego structure, but seeing that as really the first step in the development of what a person can be.
• 12:41
  And to bring presence and the light to that.
• 12:45
  But it takes rubbing up against your issues and difficulties and each other and working things out.
• 12:54
  And Hameed and I had plenty of that, too.
• 12:58
  It wasn't like, oh, this is a relationship made in heaven and everything is just dandy.
• 13:03
  No, there were times of conflict and anger and difficulties and misunderstandings and all kinds of things.
• 13:13
  But it meant really being devoted to the truth, not to one another.
• 13:19
  And that's another thing.
• 13:22
  We never took what each other said as truth.
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  It had to be verifiable.
• 13:27
  It had to be, you know, well, that's not my experience.
• 13:31
  And some of our experiences differed.
• 13:34
  And we needed to find, well, what's the common ground to that?
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  What's the truth?
• 13:37
  What's the Zen diagram here.
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  Where does it overlap?
• 13:41
  And starting to see that there's different angles to different ways of experiencing things.
• 13:48
  So the personal element in our path is one of the things that actually, I feel is a major contribution for our work.
• 13:58
  It's not just the individual consciousness and understanding our soul.
• 14:03
  But how that soul matures and develops to appreciate the uniqueness that's inseparable from the expanse of our nature.
• 14:14
  And that means working it out.
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  It means dealing with the nasty stuff, the difficulties, history, all of the relationships you ever had that come into it.
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  And that is also the positive, the idealizing of things.
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  The idealizing of a relationship and not having to have that in a way, to be yourself.
• 14:37
  So these are all different ways in which Hameed and I got into the grit and the difficult bits.
• 14:43
  And the admitting to not having our full now ness forefront at those times.
• 14:52
  So that's what brought about more and more understanding of what it means to have a real relationship that evolves and continues and develops into areas that we never knew.
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  I mean, things that you can't even call a relationship.
• 15:09
  When you have certain kinds of unity and certain ways in which that overlap actually produces that third element that a relationship can bring.
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  And that third element is like a.
• 15:24
  It's beyond merging.
• 15:25
  It's like a whole universe of possibilities that can come about.
• 15:30
  That one person alone does not have that potential for.
• 15:36
  So I have no doubt that Hameed's bringing the teaching in.
• 15:40
  And was kind of the first initiate, the first guinea pig, he calls it.
• 15:44
  The teaching would have happened regardless of who he was around.
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  But because there were others.
• 15:51
  And because of our relationship developing the way it did.
• 15:56
  It has brought out things that I think we both agree couldn't have happened without someone else.
• 16:02
  Another being who has a certain mutuality and synergy.
• 16:07
  I think one thing too important to see here.
• 16:11
  Is that in the beginning we were talking like friends about normal, ordinary thing.
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  Little by little, the teachings started emerging as part of the discussion tazzle.
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  Talking about ordinary things most of the time.
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  So we're friends, we were roommates and stuff, talking about normal life thing.
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  And then the experiences will come in.
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  But the point I want to make is that the fact that there was dialogue about the experiences and discussion and exchange.
• 16:44
  That developed later in the teaching as what we call the practice of inquiry.
• 16:49
  Because our conversation turned more and more into inquiry into experience.
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  Which would start as social conversation became inquiry into experience.
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  Which then translated in the teaching.
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  As a teacher working with a student as an inquiry.
• 17:08
  That's why we have personal you know, each student have a personal teacher where they do inquiry with them.
• 17:14
  You know, as Karen was saying, that's one of the things that distinguishes the diamond approach is that emphasis on the personal as well as the ultimate ground of being.
• 17:24
  I mean, the pearl of great price.
• 17:25
  You emphasize that.
• 17:27
  And you can really see in this book how you guys were growing psychologically and spiritually and going through your things together.
• 17:34
  And you had Faisal in there, very important part of it.
• 17:37
  And then like the Beatles, you know, they broke up along the way, and things continued to flow.
• 17:41
  But I was also fascinated about Hameed's beginnings.
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  He was born in Kuwait, and this was before the oil boom, and it was still a British colony.
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  And he was the oldest of eight children.
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  I mean, that's a big deal in a family order.
• 17:54
  And very loving parents.
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  And I don't think they had television and telephones or any of that stuff back then.
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  It was a very.
• 18:01
  Compared to our experience in the west at that time.
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  Very simple, simplified life.
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  And later on, I think through 62.
• 18:08
  Was it 62, that Kuwait, it was a British colony and broke away.
• 18:12
  And the oil started coming, money came in, and they started investing in their people, I suppose.
• 18:18
  And I mean, you got to come over to the United States and you went through.
• 18:22
  I don't know how many years at Berkeley studying physics.
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  And you were already were teaching and you had your own office and you were working on your dissertation.
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  And just the inner call.
• 18:35
  I mean, there's a lot of it.
• 18:36
  Everybody, apparently, you're very popular.
• 18:38
  They wanted to keep the.
• 18:39
  You wanted to become a professor.
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  And you said, no, I can't do this.
• 18:42
  You said, you're actually falling asleep when you're writing your dissertation.
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  And you started.
• 18:46
  And then you went off and went through a period of incredible heroic exploration and working on yourself and therapy and meditation and yoga.
• 18:56
  And there were so many kind of amazing teachers floating around in the Bay Area at that time.
• 19:01
  And that was just like.
• 19:02
  I mean, you work your ass off to have the grace of mastery, I guess.
• 19:06
  You know, you really, really were dedicated.
• 19:09
  And it was very courageous just to drop what you're doing and say this destiny or mission that was calling you, and you went with it.
• 19:16
  That's true.
• 19:17
  That's how it went.
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  And Karen, at that time, she was an artist.
• 19:21
  She was studying art.
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  So that's.
• 19:23
  Her background is more in the arts.
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  Later on, she studied psychology.
• 19:27
  But what's funny about the story of Hameed is that that story has come up several times, how he made the switch.
• 19:35
  But one of the really interesting moments where he recognized this is not for me, is when he went into the cafeteria and saw the guys sitting around and they were all these brilliant heads without much going on anywhere
• 19:51
  else.
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  And he said, I don't want to be like that.
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  And I think that story is so great.
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  I mean, I could just see him looking, going, what is that what I'm going to turn into?
• 20:02
  And that was a moment of recognition that this was not for him.
• 20:07
  But I do have to say that the training of becoming a scientist and working the way he did gave him the kind of discernment and capacity for synthesis that enabled him to really systematize experience, which is really an
• 20:29
  important part of a spiritual path.
• 20:33
  That there's a system.
• 20:34
  It isn't the experience or the actual realization, but it is the step by step process of how things evolved and grew and developed.
• 20:47
  And the very specific and clear ways in which our path moved through various hurdles and opened up to experience is so instrumental in what we do.
• 21:04
  And he had that kind of training to do that.
• 21:08
  So it was useful and it was important and it was great that he recognized, nope, this isn't the direction.
• 21:14
  I need another way.
• 21:16
  Since you've raised this, Karen, it brings up the question initially, Hameed, and then both of you resonated through the.
• 21:25
  A remarkable array of profound openings and states of consciousness and insights.
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  To what extent was the coherence of these experiences apparent and lend itself easily to formulating a path for others?
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  And to what extent did you have to kind of go back and reflect and synthesize?
• 21:49
  There's two vantage points to look at this from.
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  As we were moving through things, it was these amazing wisdom vehicles, we call them, were coming through.
• 22:01
  And we experienced every single nuance of each one.
• 22:08
  And we started to see the patterns of these presences showing up and the issues that were barriers to them.
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  And there was kind of a.
• 22:19
  We started to see that there was a.
• 22:21
  A pretty systematic way they were coming through and developing at some point.
• 22:27
  But also as things went on, Hameed kept journals that really indicated every single thing that was happening.
• 22:37
  Every day he would make entries.
• 22:39
  Mine were less elaborate and more based on the issues that I was looking at things that were coming through, but they weren't as disciplined, which is what made me go back to school.
• 22:51
  I realized I had to get more discipline in terms of my mind and getting a little bit more capable of articulation and so on.
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  But he kept great journals and notes and that helped to look back on.
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  These are things that are very.
• 23:07
  They follow each other In a very particular linear way, Even though experientially they weren't so linear.
• 23:15
  But also there'd be explosions at various times for Hameed, he'd get an entire vehicle of wisdom, and then each nuance would come.
• 23:27
  Each part of it would start to show up for me.
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  I would go through one and the other, and issues would follow, and then I'd have an explosion at the end.
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  So it was very, very, very different kind of process.
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  But in writing the book, I realized that the journals were a very important part of keeping track, of being able to track the experiences and make sense of them along the way.
• 23:59
  But it was a very long while before we realized that this was a teaching that would actually outlive the founders or anybody here now who's actually becoming a vessel.
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  And that's when we realized, well, this is a teaching.
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  It's got all the earmarks of a teaching.
• 24:17
  It's got a cosmology.
• 24:19
  There's a relationship of the individual to the greater whole.
• 24:24
  There's ways in which these things are coming through.
• 24:27
  And that other people were beginning to get the transmissions without talking about them.
• 24:34
  And that's a really important thing.
• 24:36
  When Hameed was first working with people, he was just inquiring with them through various.
• 24:44
  The issues that would come up in their life.
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  And they would start to talk about them, and the inquiry would lead to kinds of openings that would bring out spirit in various ways, bring in the essential qualities.
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  And this was prior to any teaching that had been done.
• 25:05
  And then he began to teach about them.
• 25:07
  So that's when we recognized this isn't just about what we're going through.
• 25:13
  This is something that other people are catching, that other people are part of.
• 25:19
  And that's when you realize that there was a teaching, a new teaching.
• 25:22
  Something new was emerging from all this.
• 25:25
  Yes.
• 25:26
  Yeah.
• 25:27
  That was one stage when recognition.
• 25:30
  It's a teaching.
• 25:31
  It's not just for me or for me and Karen.
• 25:35
  And one important thing I wanted to say here is that the way the teaching was arriving is not like I had an awakening.
• 25:44
  Many teachers talk about it.
• 25:45
  I had this awakening, and then I started teaching.
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  It's not like I had this big, explosive awakening.
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  And then from then I became a teacher.
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  It was a stream of experience, stream of awakenings that was emerging spontaneously.
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  I mean, it's true.
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  I was meditating regularly.
• 26:03
  It wasn't like I was spending my day meditating.
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  I only meditate, like, half an hour in the morning.
• 26:08
  That's about it.
• 26:10
  And then the experiences will happen at any time.
• 26:13
  And then like the emergence of eruptions of experiences and realization and insights and sentences that were happening in, you know, in spite of me and Karen.
• 26:27
  And they were just.
• 26:29
  It's like, that's why we say it's a teaching.
• 26:31
  That using us was just emerging, exploding into the scene, and it was revealing more and more of itself until it became clear to us that it is really a teaching not just for us and just personal experience.
• 26:49
  It wasn't just transforming my experience, it is for others.
• 26:52
  Especially because I was getting things that I myself didn't need.
• 26:56
  I said, why am I getting those?
• 26:59
  And then I realized some of the student I was working with needed them.
• 27:02
  So it sounds as though the recognition that you were receiving a path for more than yourselves was a conclusion you reached rather than a kind of transmission itself.
• 27:14
  Is that correct?
• 27:15
  Yeah, it was like an understanding or some recognition.
• 27:19
  Well, also the fact that it was functioning similarly for others as we investigated things, that same kind of awareness would start to happen.
• 27:31
  So it was a slow moving thing.
• 27:33
  But I remember it took several years of that occurring before there was actually a recognition that this is something different, this is something new.
• 27:45
  And it was also after visiting many, many teachers and seeing that what we were doing and what was happening to us was different from what was happening to others.
• 27:55
  Although there were overlaps, there were similarities, but we kept searching for others who would be able to impart some kind of wisdom about what was going on with us.
• 28:06
  We didn't find it.
• 28:07
  We found some things, but we did not find that.
• 28:11
  And that turned us back to ourselves and what was happening as something that was just coming.
• 28:17
  It wasn't like, oh, we need to follow this, we need to come up with a system.
• 28:22
  We did not come up with the system.
• 28:25
  The system came up with us.
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  We, in fact, I don't know who called us founders because I feel like that isn't exactly right.
• 28:35
  We didn't find anything.
• 28:37
  It found a way and it came.
• 28:41
  And that's really the miracle of it.
• 28:43
  And we don't know why, but we know that it is.
• 28:48
  So that's part of it.
• 28:50
  That's amazing.
• 28:51
  There's no answer to that.
• 28:53
  I think the bulk details of the, especially the first few years was like a torrent of experiences and realization.
• 29:01
  They were emerging on their own, unbidden, unexpected and frequently unknown.
• 29:07
  Not known for the first time.
• 29:10
  We weren't doing it.
• 29:11
  I wasn't doing it.
• 29:12
  I wasn't trying to make it happen.
• 29:13
  I wasn't expecting it to happen.
• 29:15
  Things will just emerge.
• 29:17
  Like every day there's something new Emerging and exploding into consciousness.
• 29:22
  And I will talk with Karen about it, and she will corroborate it because she was very receptive to my, you know, communication.
• 29:32
  If I talk to her about certain states, she started experiencing it different from talking to other students.
• 29:38
  You know, it takes a while for others to get it.
• 29:40
  She was very receptive that way.
• 29:43
  That was part of that feeling at that very first meeting was an openness between us, an openness and a certain kind of innocence in that openness that just continued through time.
• 29:57
  But the other thing is that I want to say that I think is really important is I was.
• 30:03
  It was easy for me to have the experiences.
• 30:06
  It was easy for me to get into them.
• 30:09
  However, that did not mean that the stream was realized yet for me.
• 30:16
  When Hameed actually poured that substance into my hand and I felt lit up, that's when it took hold and never left.
• 30:27
  Experiences came and went before then.
• 30:30
  I felt depth, I felt presence.
• 30:33
  I felt all kinds of things, but they were coming and going.
• 30:36
  When that happened, that's when it seemed like something took hold.
• 30:41
  And that's when that stream started to push forward and the energy of it started to continue to elaborate itself.
• 30:53
  So experience versus awakening, two really different things.
• 30:59
  Yeah, and thank you for bringing that up.
• 31:01
  And, Karen, that's such a remarkable story of transmission and of stabilization.
• 31:08
  So it'd be beautiful if you'd tell listeners what actually happened for you.
• 31:13
  At what point?
• 31:14
  Well, either you give an account of just what you said, but you gave a more detailed account in the book of an actual moment in which Hameed transmits.
• 31:23
  Poured it into your hand, basically.
• 31:25
  Yeah.
• 31:25
  Yeah.
• 31:26
  I mean, we were discussing something.
• 31:28
  We were inquiring and looking at stuff, and I had had experiences.
• 31:34
  I knew what presence was.
• 31:35
  But the interesting thing about presence is if you talk about it when it's not there, it's just an idea, because presence is only now.
• 31:43
  So we were talking about it, but it became obvious that I wasn't in it at that moment.
• 31:49
  To me, it was obvious, and I was talking about it as a memory.
• 31:52
  Now, that can bring it back.
• 31:54
  We were sitting in my living room in Denver, and something inspired Hameed to have me reach my hand out.
• 32:04
  I don't know what that was.
• 32:05
  I can't remember at this moment.
• 32:07
  I didn't read that part of the book lately.
• 32:12
  But it was as if he was swirling his hand in the air, drawing and distilling something.
• 32:21
  And I could almost see his hand becoming weighty.
• 32:26
  And he said, put your hand out.
• 32:27
  And he poured this substance into my hand and this was after years of conversation and experiences, mind you.
• 32:39
  And I felt immediately a weighty fullness that felt like a glowing.
• 32:47
  I could see it in my mind's eye, but I also could feel it like a glow, a warmth, but a fullness that began to penetrate throughout my body.
• 33:01
  It was almost like liquid light mixed with tapioca pudding.
• 33:08
  I can't even explain the kind of fullness.
• 33:10
  And it just went through me entirely, all the way.
• 33:15
  And I felt overtaken by it.
• 33:19
  And it was a very full bodied, complete sense of things waking up in a fullness that felt beyond fleshy.
• 33:29
  It wasn't my body anymore.
• 33:33
  It felt like I was a body of light, of fullness, of presence.
• 33:38
  I mean, I couldn't call it anything else, but it was complete nowness embodied.
• 33:44
  So that moment was the time that I felt like my consciousness.
• 33:48
  And that became in union, I felt united with it.
• 33:54
  And Karen, I want to say that there's something doubly powerful about that experience.
• 34:01
  And that not only did it give you this incredible sense of wakefulness, but that it lasted.
• 34:07
  It became what I guess the Sufis would call a station, a permanent way of being for you.
• 34:14
  And that transmission comes through both in the book and in your description.
• 34:20
  I mean, I'm just right now so incredibly alert and awake in resonance with you.
• 34:27
  Unfortunately, when I read the book, it didn't stay become a station for me, but at least I got a temporary transmission.
• 34:35
  Well, it is a kind of clarity, vibrancy, fullness, settledness, all at once.
• 34:43
  But I do have to say that there were times of what I mean by it stayed with me.
• 34:49
  There were times when I wasn't attending to it, or forgetfulness of it, or a barrier or an issue would come.
• 34:55
  And it wasn't dominate.
• 34:57
  But if I really settled and felt in that was there, you had access to it in some fashion.
• 35:04
  The access was something that remained constant.
• 35:09
  So that fullness itself wasn't what stayed.
• 35:14
  What stayed was its core of me.
• 35:17
  And it felt like it had then an intelligence and a force that was pushing everything out for me to see that was in its way.
• 35:29
  And that's what amplified my process and brought me much more into really confronting and dealing with what those barriers and difficulties were.
• 35:40
  Parts of myself that I didn't want to see.
• 35:42
  Things that weren't spiritual, things that weren't nice, but that was there.
• 35:50
  And I felt that as a pressure to.
• 35:54
  To look, to see, to be curious about the things I didn't want to be interested in.
• 35:59
  That it made me look.
• 36:01
  Sounds like you're giving a beautiful example of what seems like more of a general principle, that when there is some kind of opening or awakening, it kind of flushes out into awareness the blocks and barriers to the full
• 36:16
  expression of that.
• 36:17
  I think it can.
• 36:18
  I don't think it always does.
• 36:20
  I think for some people, you can go into the awakening and there's practices of how to not attend to these other things.
• 36:30
  But that doesn't enable one to become a full human being.
• 36:34
  It enables one to be transcendent and beyond this world, which I think is fine.
• 36:41
  That isn't how this happened.
• 36:43
  To really become that pearl beyond price means looking at the gritty bits.
• 36:49
  And that's what makes a pearl shiny.
• 36:53
  That's what brings out its luminosity, is looking at the sand, the stuff in your sunburned bed, that makes you want to move away from it.
• 37:03
  You know, it's really what brings out that luminosity to being a human being in the world, being present, being now, being personal and naked to what it is to be fully there.
• 37:18
  Hameed, I wanted to ask, what was it like when Karen's describing her experience?
• 37:24
  Do you remember when this happened and what.
• 37:26
  What were you experiencing when this transmission happened?
• 37:30
  And you poured this into her hand and it was this.
• 37:32
  Do you remember what that was like or how that was for you?
• 37:36
  Yeah, I remember the time, and we were talking about it, and I wanted her to know from experience, not just we're talking about it.
• 37:43
  At that time, I had the capacity to be able to collect presents in my hand and give it away, you know, So, I mean, Karen's one of the few people where I actually poured it into her hand, her
• 37:57
  palm, her hand.
• 37:59
  And she was receptive enough not only to feel in her hand, but for it to penetrate, to go in, to go other people.
• 38:07
  I gave it differently.
• 38:08
  Sometime I throw it to somebody's head.
• 38:12
  What's interesting to me, though, about that moment wasn't that it was transmission, that it was some big spiritual thing.
• 38:19
  He was making a point at the moment that wasn't verbal.
• 38:24
  He was bringing something into the conversation that wasn't about.
• 38:28
  Talking about was something of.
• 38:33
  For some reason, it felt like just the right exclamation point upon which I needed to sit.
• 38:41
  I needed to get that.
• 38:43
  This experience isn't just an experience.
• 38:45
  This is what you are.
• 38:48
  That was the feeling.
• 38:50
  And so it wasn't like, okay, hold on, I'm going to transmit.
• 38:55
  I'm going to do this.
• 38:56
  Really important.
• 38:58
  No, it wasn't like it was in the spirit of a loving friendship And a good conversation.
• 39:06
  And it was part of the conversation, so it felt normal and completely out of this world at the same time.
• 39:14
  And that's what that time was like.
• 39:18
  Our conversations happened in the grocery store.
• 39:21
  They happened in the living room.
• 39:22
  They happened on the way to work.
• 39:25
  You remember when we had those amazing revelations in the bars, in the bar.
• 39:30
  We're having drinks and there's a new state arises.
• 39:35
  In Potter's Bar in downtown Boulder.
• 39:40
  We're sitting there having a drink after one of his meetings down there, and I was ferrying him back and forth from Denver.
• 39:48
  And we're sitting there, and all of a sudden our whole vantage point changed.
• 39:55
  And we got this sense of pure awareness as this little bubble of awareness in the middle of the bar.
• 40:03
  And everything receded.
• 40:05
  And we were this clear bubble of perception.
• 40:09
  Now, mind you, this was not when we were in what we call the second turning of boundlessness.
• 40:16
  This was within our individual consciousness where this whole, what we call the first turning happened with all of these incredible spiritual experiences.
• 40:27
  But they were in the midst of life, and this was in the middle of Potter's Bar.
• 40:32
  That's where we recognized what we call the bubble of perception, which I think is the way that pure awareness shows up within the individual consciousness, that you don't have to be in the expanse to have that experience.
• 40:47
  So that was really.
• 40:48
  Remember that meal?
• 40:49
  That was.
• 40:50
  It was breathtaking.
• 40:51
  That was fun.
• 40:52
  I mean, we were.
• 40:57
  That's our.
• 40:58
  Was our biggest fun was having those kind of experiences and talking about them and exchanging them.
• 41:03
  And we're looking around going, I don't think anybody knows what's going on over here.
• 41:09
  Well, next time I'm in town, I'm going to be heading for Potter's Bar.
• 41:13
  It's not there anymore, actually.
• 41:19
  I don't know.
• 41:20
  It was the bar or.
• 41:21
  No, but I mean, can you say more about what allowed you to do this?
• 41:28
  Because transmission is, in some traditions, very important part of the path.
• 41:34
  And yet it's even.
• 41:36
  Well, the Dalai Lama was asked about transmission once because people have these transmission experiences around him.
• 41:42
  And his response was, it's a mystery which is not terribly satisfying.
• 41:48
  But could you say more about it?
• 41:50
  What do you have a sense of what allowed you to do this?
• 41:53
  Well, at that time, like when I gave Cannon the transmission, I didn't know I could do it.
• 42:00
  I didn't do it before.
• 42:01
  It was the first time.
• 42:02
  So just occurred to me.
• 42:04
  Well, I was feeling it.
• 42:06
  I was the fullness of it.
• 42:07
  And I could feel it like something substantial there and filling Me filling my asshole.
• 42:14
  And I was able to twirl my hand and collects it in my hand.
• 42:19
  And.
• 42:20
  And I felt I could pour it.
• 42:22
  And I did, and it worked.
• 42:23
  So you just felt spontaneous guidance?
• 42:26
  Yeah.
• 42:27
  I didn't even know that would have worked, but I.
• 42:29
  But I had confidence somehow that something would happen.
• 42:33
  So had confidence that I could give it to her.
• 42:37
  I was telling her, basically, that is what I am experiencing.
• 42:42
  Yeah.
• 42:42
  Apparently the conversation wasn't working, so we tried something else.
• 42:48
  But also I could say something about transmission that I've learned.
• 42:52
  Which is that transmission isn't always a substance being given.
• 43:00
  Or something being targeting someone or a crowd.
• 43:04
  It isn't really something going from somewhere to something.
• 43:09
  I see it more as being some kind of.
• 43:14
  I guess you could look at it as a vibration that hits a tuning fork.
• 43:19
  That presence, really in the expanse or whatever it is you're experiencing.
• 43:25
  Is something that is really beyond time and space.
• 43:30
  So when you are that and someone is receptive.
• 43:34
  That is something that they can feel.
• 43:39
  And it's immediate.
• 43:41
  And it doesn't mean it's going from you to someone.
• 43:44
  It's not a gift you give.
• 43:46
  It's a resonance with what is there.
• 43:51
  And so it's not exactly something that you're offering, giving, whatever.
• 43:56
  Although, in that case, there was actually substance that he wanted to convey.
• 44:02
  Because we deal with substance, not just space, not just spaciousness.
• 44:08
  But actually the palpable sense of presence.
• 44:11
  But transmission has many ways that it could be looked at.
• 44:15
  But this is one that I've understood for some time.
• 44:18
  And just being in dialogue can be a transmission.
• 44:22
  That energetic interaction.
• 44:24
  When you walk into a room and someone's been mad, you feel it.
• 44:29
  I mean, you're transmitting all kinds of stuff all the time.
• 44:36
  Everybody's a transmitter and a receiver.
• 44:39
  So the spiritual transmission is when somebody's actually in touch with that which is beyond time and space.
• 44:46
  And someone else resonates with that.
• 44:49
  That's deeper than these other areas of their psyche or consciousness, I think.
• 44:55
  You know, these days when people talk about transmission.
• 44:59
  They think of the Tibetan way of doing it.
• 45:01
  Or the Indian way of doing it.
• 45:03
  Where the teacher sit and does some kind of practice, some kind of ritual.
• 45:08
  And the students are there and to get that transmission.
• 45:12
  But, you know, other traditions, like, you know, Christian and Sufi.
• 45:17
  You know, the teacher hugs the student, for instance.
• 45:20
  And the hug makes the transmission, for instance, just giving an embrace, you know, instead of doing a ritual.
• 45:26
  In our teaching, we don't do rituals at the present time.
• 45:30
  We do it is.
• 45:31
  We talk about the state we describe it.
• 45:34
  As we describe it, it gets activated.
• 45:37
  And the student consciousness, they're open.
• 45:40
  It activates that part in them that is similar.
• 45:43
  So it's not something given to another.
• 45:46
  It's more like an activation.
• 45:48
  It is sort of a communication with the energy present in it that will light up something in the student.
• 45:56
  It will emerge within them.
• 45:58
  So you're both using two main ideas here.
• 46:02
  One is resonance, and the other is a kind of evocation.
• 46:05
  And both of you are implying necessity for certain receptivity and the recipient.
• 46:11
  And, Karen, what you.
• 46:13
  It's clear from your writing that you had an extraordinary resonance.
• 46:19
  That, as you described, you know, Hameed would describe a new experience and you'd.
• 46:24
  Have it most of the time.
• 46:25
  That's how our communication works.
• 46:28
  We talk with each other, and whatever we talk about become mutual experience.
• 46:33
  Hameed, I wanted to go back to an important point in the book, and we've discussed this a little bit, but maybe your awakening experiences when you.
• 46:42
  Impactful, I might said, pun intended.
• 46:44
  You were walking in Berkeley, and I think you were still in grad school there studying physics, and a motorcycle slammed into you.
• 46:52
  And you go flying through the air, and you think you might have died, you know, actually physically.
• 46:57
  And people are surrounding you, and you're seeing yourself from above and seeing what's going on.
• 47:02
  And then you're in a hospital.
• 47:03
  And I think that's where you talked about the first time you had experience with Diamond.
• 47:06
  And presence became very important.
• 47:09
  So it was like a very powerful experience.
• 47:11
  And where normally we think of it as a disaster to get slammed into a motorcycle, it turned into an incredible, you know, blessing and seems like a very powerful move forward in your evolution and growth.
• 47:23
  Yeah, I would say that could be one of the big transitions in my life where I experienced something that began the process without me knowing it.
• 47:32
  It began something because afterward I was mostly in the hospital dealing with pain and stuff like that.
• 47:40
  But I think that's probably that experience is what made me at some point recognize in that cafeteria that those brilliant people there were mostly living from their heads and there was something else missing.
• 47:54
  Yeah.
• 47:55
  Yeah.
• 47:55
  I think, actually I'd like to insert something here, too, which is that both of us and others who've been engaged in the teaching all along the way have had many kinds of spiritual experiences.
• 48:07
  From expanse to various ways presence might have emerged.
• 48:12
  But the way that our teaching evolved was really going back to square one and dealing with different kinds of issues and difficulties and so on, when actually we had had many.
• 48:29
  I mean, Hameed had Felt expanses of all kinds in his work with other teachers.
• 48:35
  Many of our students come from traditions that have had many kinds of awakenings in the transcendent.
• 48:43
  But following this path is its very own kind of approach that brings out one's own unwinding in a way that really deals with the particulars of one's experience.
• 49:01
  And you go back into it, understanding it in a very different way.
• 49:06
  So like Hameed had had experiences of the absolute or this or that, all kinds of things we could name.
• 49:13
  But this experience was of the motorcycle accident and the diamond.
• 49:19
  This diamond structure actually brought in the way in which this path was refracting true nature in a very specific way.
• 49:32
  And that's what makes it different from other paths that we didn't recognize right away, but had to along the way.
• 49:41
  So this is actually what we call the guidance, diamond guidance.
• 49:49
  And the diamond guidance is the main vehicle that brought about the understanding and the method of inquiry.
• 50:01
  But also that we're a path of understanding.
• 50:04
  And that understanding is a full heart, belly mind, discerning affect and feeling of understanding.
• 50:15
  Not just an intellectual understanding, it's a complete kind of experiential understanding, but the ability to use mind and its discerning capacity and the precision of understanding and knowing.
• 50:32
  So that's also another important part of understanding this as a spiritual path.
• 50:38
  Like all paths have a lot of knowledge and that knowledge is very particular to those paths.
• 50:47
  So this is what I call the spearhead.
• 50:51
  That Hameed actually had that and brought that in.
• 50:57
  And that's what started the whole.
• 51:00
  The whole game rolling.
• 51:02
  It's very dramatic, powerful.
• 51:04
  Yeah.
• 51:05
  And one of the things you're implying here or pointing to is the inclusiveness of the diamond approach path.
• 51:12
  That one of the things that stands out in studying your both your work is that every experience, the nitty gritty of life, the transcendent, it's all fuel for the path and the practice.
• 51:28
  And there's not a.
• 51:29
  It's non dual in a very extremely encompassing way.
• 51:33
  Yeah.
• 51:34
  And non dual not just in terms of the expanse and everything's arising.
• 51:38
  No, it's like being the individual consciousness and all that goes with it and back to transmission.
• 51:47
  You are transmitting everything.
• 51:48
  You are a teacher isn't just transmitting all the goodies, they're also transmitting all the grit.
• 51:55
  And that as you realize as a teacher, you have a responsibility to look at that darkness and find out what it is and what's hiding there and what needs to come out.
• 52:06
  And also appreciating the darkness when it becomes luminous.
• 52:13
  Darkness isn't always about darkness.
• 52:16
  But if teachers don't do that, don't take the responsibility of working through their stuff, negative stuff that can really hurt the transmission and hurt their students.
• 52:23
  And they pass it on when it hasn't been processed well, it's bound to.
• 52:27
  Come out in relationship with their students, and it's bound to show up.
• 52:32
  And I know along the way I learned a lot, but by the difficulty students were having with me.
• 52:38
  And I had to look at my side of it and work it and then come in with helping them more to see, well, what got touched for them, but also to learn how to work the relationship in such
• 52:52
  a way where I was able to go, all.
• 52:55
  Right, yeah, I talk about the transmission, how of the transmits everything.
• 53:02
  It reminds me of the experience of receiving transmission of the karmape the 16th, the black hat ceremony, which, you know, gave me a headache for a year or so for a while.
• 53:14
  And when finally opened up, I recognized I wasn't just getting the state he was transmitting, which is, you know, what most people get.
• 53:23
  I got the whole path.
• 53:25
  I realized I would be talking with Kara.
• 53:28
  They were exploring that.
• 53:29
  What was emerging in me was the whole Kagyu karma, Kagyu lineage, the whole teaching as it developed, was emerging.
• 53:37
  He was transmitting all of that because that was all in him.
• 53:40
  And most people probably are not aware of that.
• 53:43
  They're just aware of the state they get right then.
• 53:46
  But usually, if you really are open to a transmission, he gets a lot more.
• 53:51
  But that did not mean that you ended up as a Kagyo Rinpoche or something like that.
• 53:57
  We remember as that was happening, we're also seeing how that is different from the stream we were into.
• 54:03
  Right.
• 54:04
  But that's part of the precision and clarity that mind offers is the ability to differentiate the different streams of teaching while being completely affected by them.
• 54:16
  So you learn, but for Hameed in particular, he could learn and bring it in and see the value of the perspective, but also what it meant in relationship to the particular path that we were on.
• 54:33
  And that began to happen for me as well as we began to study different teachings and different teachers, that I could feel that and begin to understand the differences, but also how that elaborated itself within our own path.
• 54:51
  So the second turning and getting into the great Expanse was a way in which many of those teachings actually brought about certain understandings that we might not have had without that influence and understanding.
• 55:04
  You know, I remember those discussions those years.
• 55:08
  For a long time, we didn't know that this path has anything different from other paths.
• 55:16
  We're always looking in other paths to find out where is it that they discuss or explore what we are experiencing.
• 55:24
  Because we believe other teachings must have.
• 55:27
  It must have the kind of experiences we have.
• 55:31
  Can't be just here.
• 55:32
  And took us many years to realize, yes, some were known by other teaching, but some we could never find in other teachings.
• 55:40
  We were looking for years, probably decades.
• 55:43
  Finally we sort of.
• 55:44
  We gave up.
• 55:45
  We said, well, that's what we know.
• 55:47
  Maybe it exists somewhere else, but we don't see it.
• 55:50
  So there's something unique about this teaching which makes it a new teaching that is emerging, that is seem to be appropriate for the times.
• 56:00
  Yeah, I remember those times.
• 56:01
  And it was sort of like standing on a hill going, hello, anybody else out there who knows what this is?
• 56:08
  Can you help us out?
• 56:09
  I mean, it was really kind of really uncharted territory in many respects.
• 56:14
  And it was like really wanting to find some way to talk about it or somebody who knew something, you know, a little support, it'd be nice.
• 56:24
  How about a little guidance over here?
• 56:26
  And we realized more and more that no, this is.
• 56:30
  We need to rely on ourselves and really be true to our experience.
• 56:34
  And it made us actually become more responsible about it also.
• 56:39
  It feels a little lonely sometimes, actually, to be honest.
• 56:44
  Yeah, you brought in comparison with other traditions and the way you looked for commonalities.
• 56:50
  And this brings in invites a comparison about your roles in bringing through new teaching and the extent to which two people working together have done that before.
• 57:02
  And I just don't know a lot of examples.
• 57:05
  The ones that come to mind are Aurobindo, the great Indian sage, and so called the Mother, as she was called.
• 57:13
  But I think she came in later, after Aurobindo had produced a lot of his teachings.
• 57:18
  And a more contemporary example is from a curiously titled path, the Course in Miracles, which was a channeled production.
• 57:30
  It's a Christian contemplative teaching.
• 57:32
  It also seems to be a whole path.
• 57:36
  And it came through an atheist Jewish professor of psychology who was supported very closely by her chairman at Columbia University.
• 57:49
  And between the two of them, they brought through over a period of several years.
• 57:53
  She was the transmitter and he was the supporter.
• 57:57
  And yeah, support I think, is the best word of this major body of work, which came through over a period of six years.
• 58:07
  But those are the only examples I know of.
• 58:10
  How about Rumi and Shams?
• 58:12
  Would that be something to look at?
• 58:13
  Yes, definitely, but I think there are others.
• 58:16
  But I think for a long time the female counterpart wasn't addressed much.
• 58:22
  And I Think that was sad.
• 58:24
  I think there are others.
• 58:26
  I think even Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene.
• 58:29
  I think Mary Magdalene had a great deal to do with some of the things that came down there.
• 58:34
  The Gnostics provide us with some information about that.
• 58:39
  But I think there are others, and not just male, female, but like Shams and Rumi, that same kind of draw to one another.
• 58:49
  The kind of love they experienced was a spiritual camaraderie, was a way that they had spiritual conversation, a spiritual union amongst them.
• 59:00
  So I don't think it's unique to Hameed and I, but I think it isn't really given a lot of airtime or hasn't.
• 59:08
  And as we come towards the end of this dialogue, and I'm very happy to say we're going to have more, is there anything both of you would like to add?
• 59:19
  I just feel touched to be able to speak of these times.
• 59:24
  They were so rich and so beautiful and just.
• 59:28
  Your interest is heartening and lovely.
• 59:32
  I just appreciate the two of you very much and all of the voices that you bring in of people being able to experience so many lovely things.
• 59:43
  So thank you.
• 59:45
  Thank you.
• 59:46
  Anit, I would say one thing is that, you know, the book the Jeweleded Path is a kind of biography.
• 59:55
  So it has a lot of stories and.
• 59:57
  Yeah.
• 59:59
  So maybe we talked in general this time.
• 1:00:03
  So maybe next time you can pick on certain parts of it, certain entries from journals or things like that so you could bring out more of the history, more specific history about how things happened and developed.
• 1:00:18
  Might be instructive.
• 1:00:20
  Absolutely.
• 1:00:21
  I love that stuff.
• 1:00:22
  We'd love to.
• 1:00:23
  And I want to say that this book, the Jeweleded Path, the biography of the diamond approach to inner realization, is a.
• 1:00:31
  Yes, it's a book, and yes, it has stories and conceptual ideas, but it is also a transmission.
• 1:00:36
  I do want to say, Karen, that thank you very much for all your work in creating this amazing path and for writing this book and also for your time today.
• 1:00:46
  But I do want to say that I'm happy to report that the transition that occurred as you described, the transmission you received from Hameed is still with me.
• 1:00:56
  So I'm very grateful.
• 1:01:00
  So we'll see how long it lasts this time.
• 1:01:02
  I'm very happy.
• 1:01:03
  It is not mine to give, it is yours to be.
• 1:01:07
  And, Hameed, I just wanted.
• 1:01:08
  I didn't get to say this earlier, but I wanted to thank you for keeping these disciplined journals.
• 1:01:14
  You know, that's such a treasure and, you know, you use them in this really exciting book.
• 1:01:19
  I mean, excitement is palpable in this book.
• 1:01:22
  I mean, this unrolling of creativity and new path.
• 1:01:26
  Anyway, so thank you for that.
• 1:01:27
  It's deeply appreciated.
• 1:01:29
  Actually, this book is the only place you could find parts of my journal.
• 1:01:33
  So if anybody want to read parts of my journal, it's in this book.
• 1:01:36
  There's nowhere else written.
• 1:01:38
  Well, what about your memoir, Hameed?
• 1:01:40
  You did a little memoir?
• 1:01:42
  I'm trying to remember the name.
• 1:01:44
  Yeah, the midnight something.
• 1:01:46
  That one.
• 1:01:46
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:01:47
  That's what I.
• 1:01:49
  But that wasn't my journal.
• 1:01:50
  That's something I wrote.
• 1:01:51
  Ah, okay.
• 1:01:52
  All right.
• 1:01:53
  Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  To get into some of the specifics of the teaching and taking the spotlight off of us, because it's really about the teaching.
• 1:02:00
  Sure.
• 1:02:01
  That's the important piece.
• 1:02:03
  It's not the people.
• 1:02:04
  It's that I think you guys are important, and I would love to get more into it.
• 1:02:10
  You really have fascinating stories and.
• 1:02:12
  Yeah, I think you are important.
• 1:02:14
  You matter.
• 1:02:15
  We're in the matter.
• 1:02:16
  Anyway,.
• 1:02:18
  Thank you both very much indeed.
• 1:02:20
  Thank you so much.
• 1:02:22
  Good spending time.
• 1:02:24
  Take care.
• 1:02:25
  Thank you very much for being a part of this conversation.
• 1:02:28
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• 1:02:32
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• 1:02:36
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• 1:02:37
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• 1:02:40
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• 1:02:43
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• 1:02:50
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• 1:02:54
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• 1:02:54
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• 1:02:59
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• 1:03:01
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• 1:03:04
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