Latest / Silver FM 100.6 / What to do when you're too upset to think straight

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What to do when you're too upset to think straight · Silver FM 100.6

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  Speaker 1: The last time Antonio May's senior heard from his son,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: it was in a note the sixteen year old left
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: in the family's garage.
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  Speaker 2: He told me, you don't make me proud.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Antonio Junior left home to join a protest in Seattle.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: A week later, he was shot and killed.
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  Speaker 2: There.
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  Speaker 3: I need some areth maid justice from a son.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Listen to We Keep Us Safe on the embedded podcast
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: from NPR.
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  Speaker 2: Distress is inevitable. Pain is an inevitable part of life,
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  Speaker 2: and so much of what we do our attempts to
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  Speaker 2: avoid distress and pain. We drink when we're anxious, or
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  Speaker 2: we lash out at people when we're angry. Those behaviors
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  Speaker 2: are the result of not knowing how to tolerate what
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  Speaker 2: feels intolerable in that moment, which is that emotional experience.
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  Speaker 4: You're listening to Life Kit. I'm Mary el Sagara, and
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  Speaker 4: you just heard from Sharen Risby. She's a professor of
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  Speaker 4: psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Montefiori Einstein. She co wrote
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  Speaker 4: a book called Real Skills for Real Life, and it's
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  Speaker 4: filled with distress tolerance skills that come from dialectical behavior therapy.
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  Speaker 4: That's a form of therapy that helps people understand the
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  Speaker 4: connections between their thoughts, their behaviors, and their emotions. She says,
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  Speaker 4: according to this framework, in moments of distress, we have
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  Speaker 4: these two options.
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  Speaker 2: We could try to change the situation that's causing us distress,
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  Speaker 2: but sometimes we can't just remove the problem or solve
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  Speaker 2: the problem, and so in those moments we have to
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  Speaker 2: learn how to accept the distress and respond in a
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  Speaker 2: more effective way.
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  Speaker 4: What do you think people get wrong about coping with distress.
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  Speaker 2: I think first thing that people get wrong is thinking
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  Speaker 2: that I have to get rid of it right away.
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  Speaker 2: Their first impulse and instinct is to do something to
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  Speaker 2: make it stop. And I think the second thing that
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  Speaker 2: people get wrong is the idea that I need to
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  Speaker 2: do something to make it go away because otherwise it
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  Speaker 2: will last forever. And so one thing that we want
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  Speaker 2: people to learn is that actually, whatever it is you're feeling,
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  Speaker 2: no matter how intense, no matter how awful it feels
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  Speaker 2: in this moment, it will pass.
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  Speaker 4: On this episode of life. GIT research backed skills to
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  Speaker 4: help you tolerate distress, and these skills can make sense
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  Speaker 4: in a lot of different situations. When you're stuck in traffic,
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  Speaker 4: when you've got in a fight with your partner, when
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  Speaker 4: your teenager is rude to you, and when you're dealing
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  Speaker 4: with big life events like illness or death. Okay, So
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  Speaker 4: the first distress tolerance tool we're going to talk about
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  Speaker 4: here from the book is something called TIP. It's an
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  Speaker 4: acronym TIP, and it actually stands for four distinct skills
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  Speaker 4: that you can use in moments when you're so distressed
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  Speaker 4: that you just can't think straight. You say in the book,
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  Speaker 4: these are not skills to help you solve the problem, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And the idea is, these are skills to
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  Speaker 2: help you go from let's say a one hundred on
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  Speaker 2: a scale of zero to one hundred to an eighty,
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  Speaker 2: and then when you're at an eighty, you might be
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  Speaker 2: able to flip through the pages and find something else
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  Speaker 2: to do.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, So TIP is an acronym. It stands for TIP.
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  Speaker 4: T is temperature. What does that mean?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, temperature is actually one of my favorite skills. This
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  Speaker 2: is going to sound really weird, but it's making your
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  Speaker 2: body think that you have just dived into extremely cold water.
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  Speaker 2: And the reason we do that is because there's such
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  Speaker 2: a thing called the mammalian dive reflex. Which is a
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  Speaker 2: reflex that all mammals have that when we are submerged
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  Speaker 2: in cold water, it increases the likelihood of survival, and
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  Speaker 2: the reflex does things like slows down your heart rate,
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  Speaker 2: slows down your respiratory rate. Those are things that we
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  Speaker 2: also often need when we're in high degrees of distress
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  Speaker 2: and are physiologically aroused. So the way that we practice
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  Speaker 2: this skill is to get a large kitchen bowl, fill
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  Speaker 2: it with very cold water with some ice cubes in
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  Speaker 2: it so that it's pretty cold. You take a deep breath,
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  Speaker 2: and then you plunge your face, your eyes, and your
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  Speaker 2: temples in particular into the water while holding your breath
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  Speaker 2: and staying there for as long as possible. For most people,
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  Speaker 2: I have to say it is incredible in terms of
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  Speaker 2: how well it works for people in terms of getting
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  Speaker 2: that arousal to go down. I should make a note,
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  Speaker 2: as we often do, that we don't recommend this for
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  Speaker 2: people who have a heart condition or who are taking
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  Speaker 2: beta blockers, because the sudden decrease in heart rate could
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  Speaker 2: obviously be a problem for certain conditions. But if you
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  Speaker 2: don't have those conditions, it's definitely worth a try, and
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  Speaker 2: if you will a smart watch or something else that
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  Speaker 2: monitors your heart rate.
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  Speaker 5: You can actually look.
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  Speaker 2: You could do a little test to see your PrePost
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  Speaker 2: heart rate when you practice the temperature skill.
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  Speaker 4: So that's t I is intense exercise. So are you
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  Speaker 4: running up the stairs really fast?
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  Speaker 2: You're doing anything you can to get your heart rate
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  Speaker 2: up quickly. I taught this in a group just last week,
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  Speaker 2: and we all stood up and did jumping jacks. So
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  Speaker 2: the idea behind that is that it's almost paradoxical, but
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  Speaker 2: in that moment of high agitation, high distress, you're actually
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  Speaker 2: revving yourself up, and then when you stop the exercise,
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  Speaker 2: that decrease in heart rate comes on. You feel calmer,
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  Speaker 2: the endorphins kick in, and so on.
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  Speaker 5: Interesting.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, p is paste breathing. What does this mean?
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  Speaker 2: When we're distressed and in high anxiety, we tend to
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  Speaker 2: breathe from our chest, which is actually more hyperventilating and
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  Speaker 2: is the opposite of relaxing. Right, It gets us more
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  Speaker 2: repped up, so we want to breathe from our belly area.
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  Speaker 2: The second quality of paste breathing is to slow your
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  Speaker 2: breath down, and the third component of paste breathing is
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  Speaker 2: that you want your exhale to be longer than you're inhale.
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  Speaker 2: So you might practice this with your belly, for example,
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  Speaker 2: breathing in for account of four and then breathing out
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  Speaker 2: for account of six.
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  Speaker 4: And then we actually have one more P which is
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  Speaker 4: paired or progressive muscle relaxation, and that means like going
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  Speaker 4: through your body muscle group by muscle group, tensing the
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  Speaker 4: muscles as tight as you can and then releasing them.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And the idea is that if you tense
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  Speaker 2: your muscles as hard as you can and then relax,
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  Speaker 2: you actually get to a greater sense of relaxation than
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  Speaker 2: if you just try to relax without tensing the muscle first.
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  Speaker 2: And then the paired piece is to say the word
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  Speaker 2: relax or to say the word calm or some other
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  Speaker 2: Q word that you associate.
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  Speaker 5: Then with the relaxation.
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  Speaker 4: Piece, we'll have more life kit. After the break.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: Of all the protests in the summer of twenty twenty.
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: For a moment there it was utopia.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: One took a unique turn.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Somebody over there a lot of gun.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: This is the story of how violence came to occupy
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: an anti violence occupation in Seattle. Listen to We Keep
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• 8:09
  Speaker 7: The midterms are coming, and that means the news cycle,
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• 8:33
  Speaker 4: You have another set of skills in here that go
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  Speaker 4: by the acronym improve. You say in the book. These
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  Speaker 4: skills are designed to make difficult moments better in some
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  Speaker 4: usually small way. Walk me through what improve stands for.
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  Speaker 5: So I think.
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  Speaker 2: About improve as being a set of strategies that are
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  Speaker 2: available to you as tools in your toolbox for those
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  Speaker 2: moments where you can't do anything about the problem right now,
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  Speaker 2: but maybe there's a way to.
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  Speaker 5: Make it a little bit better.
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  Speaker 2: And so the acronym stands for seven separate skills. The
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  Speaker 2: first is imagery in the moment of crisis and difficulty,
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  Speaker 2: using visual imagery to think about something calming, going to
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  Speaker 2: your happy place, bringing to mind a particular image that
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  Speaker 2: is soothing and relaxing to you. The M stands for meaning,
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  Speaker 2: and that's spending time thinking about what meaning you can
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  Speaker 2: draw from the experience, no matter how hard it is.
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  Speaker 2: So this is really hard right now, and at least
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  Speaker 2: I'm learning that I can tolerate it.
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  Speaker 4: I found it helpful thinking about this after going through
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  Speaker 4: cancer treatment that like, now I'm like, I have more
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  Speaker 4: trust that I can handle whatever comes in my life.
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  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, I love that. And actually I didn't
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  Speaker 2: know that about you. But I also went through cancer treatment,
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  Speaker 2: and I think that I used these skills a lot.
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  Speaker 2: But I actually think that I have that similar experience
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  Speaker 2: where I wouldn't wish cancer on anyone, and I did
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  Speaker 2: feel like it changed me in in particular ways that
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  Speaker 2: I'm actually grateful.
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  Speaker 4: For Yeah, I'd rather that it hadn't happened, but yes, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: but since it did, you know, there is there was
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  Speaker 4: something that I got out of it. I also got
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  Speaker 4: like really pretty wavy hair because of it. I did chema.
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  Speaker 2: I did not get that, So I experienced distress over
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  Speaker 2: not getting this magical hair that people talk about.
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  Speaker 4: Oh dang, I'm sorry.
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  Speaker 5: I have to find other meaning.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, the pea stands for prayer.
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  Speaker 2: The pea stands for prayer, and here you could pray
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  Speaker 2: to God if that's something that you do. But we
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  Speaker 2: also want this to be something that anyone could do,
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  Speaker 2: no matter how religious or spiritual they are. And so
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  Speaker 2: we also say, pray to your own self, to your
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  Speaker 2: own inner wisdom, to ask for support and guidance, and
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  Speaker 2: to give yourself love.
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  Speaker 4: Are is relaxation?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's saying, in this moment that's really challenging for me,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to intentionally do something that makes me feel
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  Speaker 2: a little calm and actually gives me a sense of
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  Speaker 2: pleasure in some small way. So what's my favorite coffee
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  Speaker 2: drink or my favorite tea that I can just sit
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  Speaker 2: quietly and drink. Can I take a relaxing shower or
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  Speaker 2: a bath. Can I take five minutes to just lay
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  Speaker 2: in bed and relax?
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  Speaker 4: Oh, is one thing in the moment, putting your full
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  Speaker 4: attention into just one thing that you're doing right now.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So often when we're in high distress or we're freaking
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  Speaker 2: out about something, our mind is in a million different places,
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  Speaker 2: and in order to help us feel a little better
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  Speaker 2: in this one moment, what we try to do was
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  Speaker 2: to say, throw yourself completely into just one thing. For example,
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  Speaker 2: you're practicing relaxation by having a cup of tea, Just
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  Speaker 2: do that right, and when you start having thoughts about
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  Speaker 2: what's going to come next, let that go and bring
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  Speaker 2: your attention back.
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  Speaker 4: And then V is for a vacation. It's like giving
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  Speaker 4: yourself a little mini twenty minute vacation.
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  Speaker 5: Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: Most of us can't afford, either time wise or financially,
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  Speaker 2: to just take a vacation whenever we're in stress. But
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  Speaker 2: what is something that you could do for even five
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  Speaker 2: minutes or ten minutes that makes you have that sense
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  Speaker 2: of I'm just taking a break. So maybe it's looking
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  Speaker 2: at a gossip website or a trashy magazine, or laying
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  Speaker 2: down on the couch and watching a thirty minute TV show,
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  Speaker 2: anything that gives you a sense of I am just
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  Speaker 2: taking a break and I'm doing something fun and relaxing
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  Speaker 2: for myself.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so the last letter is E encouragement. What does
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  Speaker 4: this mean?
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  Speaker 2: It basically means learn how to encourage yourself and be
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  Speaker 2: a cheerleader for yourself. Some people find this really hokey,
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  Speaker 2: but actually most of us are really bad at this,
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  Speaker 2: which is the skill of being able to say to yourself,
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  Speaker 2: you can do this, keep going. And I often say
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  Speaker 2: for people that have hard time with this, it's say
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  Speaker 2: to yourself what you would say to a friend, because
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  Speaker 2: most of us are good at encouraging other people and
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  Speaker 2: not as good as encouraging ourselves.
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  Speaker 4: Even just saying it with that tone for me, helps
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  Speaker 4: like you got this. Of course you got this. You know.
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  Speaker 4: It's like I'm being my own friend in that moment.
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  Speaker 5: And making it a little bit lighter.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll have more life kit after the break, weilen.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: It seems like everything is being called a recession indicator
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: these days.
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, like the box of Hamburger helper in my pantry.
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  Speaker 4: Or the new Apple Neo book, or.
• 14:12
  Speaker 7: The resurgence of press on nails or lipstick or no lipstick.
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  Speaker 4: I've lost tracked.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: There is only one way to know if these are
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: actual economic warning signs, though, listen to the indicator from
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Planet Money, on the NPI AP or wherever you get
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: your podcasts.
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  Speaker 4: You also have some distress tolerance skills that are more
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  Speaker 4: long term, and one of them I really liked was willingness.
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  Speaker 4: I feel like I haven't heard this before. When does
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  Speaker 4: it make sense to use this skill?
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  Speaker 2: We have to accept really difficult, challenging things in our lives,
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  Speaker 2: but to accept it, we have to have a quality
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  Speaker 2: of willingness to go there, as opposed to willfulness, which
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  Speaker 2: is how we often operate. So willfulness is saying this
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  Speaker 2: shouldn't be this way, why me, this shouldn't have happened,
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  Speaker 2: he shouldn't have done that. We are constantly having should statements,
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  Speaker 2: But saying he shouldn't have done that is actually kind
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  Speaker 2: of denying the reality that he did do that. So
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  Speaker 2: willingness is this quality of moving towards acceptance with an
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  Speaker 2: open mind to say I am willing to approach this
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  Speaker 2: instead of being wilful and stubborn and refusing to accept
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  Speaker 2: what is it?
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  Speaker 4: Makes me think about going back to getting cancer. People
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  Speaker 4: would say to me, do you ever feel like why me?
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  Speaker 4: You know? And I really didn't feel that too much.
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  Speaker 4: I wanted to turn it around to why not me?
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  Speaker 4: One in something like eight women get breast cancer, so
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  Speaker 4: it was unexpected but maybe not that unusual, And that
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  Speaker 4: framing actually helped me because it's like, if why not
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  Speaker 4: me for this terrible thing? Then also why not me
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  Speaker 4: for some really exciting things that I want to do
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  Speaker 4: when I get better? You know? Why not me? Like
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  Speaker 4: finally go on that trip to Japan? Or why not
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  Speaker 4: me having kids? Why not me? Like living in a
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  Speaker 4: beautiful space? You know?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting because it reminds me of I think
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  Speaker 2: this is more of a of a zen practicer saying
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: where it's kind of like experienced the non headache or
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: the non toothache that when we have a headache or
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  Speaker 2: a toothache or full attention is drawn to that, and
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  Speaker 2: we might have those kinds of thoughts why me?
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  Speaker 5: Why now?
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  Speaker 2: What about all the moments that we don't have a
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  Speaker 2: headache or a toothache? We don't say why me in
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  Speaker 2: those moments?
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  Speaker 5: Right?
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  Speaker 2: And so can we learn to be willing to accept
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  Speaker 2: and embrace the reality of whatever life gives us, all
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  Speaker 2: of the positives and all of the negatives.
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  Speaker 4: Some of this is changing your thoughts, but then there's
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  Speaker 4: also changing our posture. Tell me about that.
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  Speaker 2: So often when we are feeling willful, we would likely
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: find that our body is tense in some way. Perhaps
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: our shoulders are up, our jaw is clenched, and so
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  Speaker 2: there are ways that we could focus on changing our body,
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  Speaker 2: and by doing that we can actually send signals back
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  Speaker 2: to our brain that, oh, this is not so terrible. So,
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  Speaker 2: for example, having what we say is a willing posture,
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  Speaker 2: which is kind of often opening up your chest, you know,
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  Speaker 2: sitting or standing upright, pushing your shoulders back, and adopting
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: willing hands. Is a phrase that we use where if
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: you're sitting, you sit with your hands face up in
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: your lap, and it's such a subtle and small thing,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: but if you notice what happens if you're sitting and
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: you just place your hands gently on your lap, palms up,
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  Speaker 2: it's almost like a signal to your brain, to yourself,
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  Speaker 2: to the world, I am open, meaning I am accepting
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  Speaker 2: of what's happening.
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  Speaker 5: And the other thing that we do.
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  Speaker 2: With our body is adopt what we call a half smile,
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  Speaker 2: where we very gently and sometimes very sub turn up
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  Speaker 2: the corners of our mouth ever so slightly to adopt
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  Speaker 2: that more serene facial expression actually communicates back to your
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  Speaker 2: brain that things are okay.
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  Speaker 4: I imagine that this advice would be very helpful for
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  Speaker 4: some people, and then it'll really annoy others who are like, yeah,
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  Speaker 4: but I'm dealing with something really difficult, or like this
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  Speaker 4: isn't going to solve my problem, or it almost feels like,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: you know, toxic positivity or something. You know, like just
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: put a smile on your face and then all these
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: horrible things that are happening are fine.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, all things that I hear on a daily basis
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  Speaker 2: when I teach these skills. So a couple of different
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: things that I say in response. So one is increasing
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: the number of tools that you have in your toolbox.
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  Speaker 2: So I want you to have all of the tools
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  Speaker 2: as many as you can pos have, and that doesn't
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  Speaker 2: mean that you're going to use all of them, but
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  Speaker 2: you have them all and they're available to you. The
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: second thing is that this is all an experiment, gather data,
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  Speaker 2: try it. You have these thoughts that this isn't going
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  Speaker 2: to work or it's just going to lead to some
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: other terrible outcome. Just notice that, but try it, practice it,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: and report back let me know how it goes. The
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: third piece is this whole idea that we are trying
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: to give people skills to manage distress, as we've been
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: talking about, but also skills to solve problems. So, if
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: you know you're in this horrible relationship that you feel
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: like you can't get out of, how do you use
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: the distress tolerance skills in moments when you need them
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: to help you cope with a really difficult moment. But
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: at the same time, how are we going to either
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: change this relationship or get you out of this relationship
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: in a way that's more sustainable and also will lead
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: to overall greater peace and happiness and less negativity.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, these skills are not meant to solve your problems exactly, Serene,
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: thank you so much for this, Thank you so much
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: for having me all Right, time for a recap. Let's
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: go through the skills we learned. Take away one tip
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: skills These are helpful in moments when you're so distressed
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: that you can't think straight. Tea stands for temperature specifically,
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: dunk your face in a bowl of cold water with
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: ice to trigger your mammalian dive reflex, which will bring
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: down your heart rate and get you breathing slower. I
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: stands for intense exercise. Do some jumping jacks, run up
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: the stairs. PEA stands for paste breathing. Make sure your
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: exhale is longer than your inhale, and P also stands
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: for paired muscle relaxation. Squeeze a muscle, then relax it
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: while saying a word like relax. You can do that
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: in a sequence from head to toe. Take away two.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: We have the improved skills. These are designed to make
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: difficult moments better in some small way. I stands for imagery.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: Think of a scene that calms you down. M stands
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: for meaning. Not everything happens for a reason, but this happened,
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: and it does have meaning in my life. P stands
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: for prayer. Go inward and connect with the divine. And
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: if you don't believe in God, try praying to your
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: wisest self. R is for relaxation. Do something that you
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: know reliably relaxes you. Drink some tea, watch your favorite
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: TV show from the nineties, pet your dog, O is
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: one thing in the moment. Focus completely on one thing
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: that you're doing right now. V is vacation. Give yourself
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: a ten or fifteen minute break from everything now checking messages,
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: no working, just vacationing. And E is for encouragement. Remind
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: yourself you got this and mean it because you do.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: Last late takeaway three try the skill of willingness, which
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: is useful when you're dealing with a longer term situation
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: that's causing you distress and you find yourself denying reality,
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: trying to control everything, or focusing on what should have
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: happened instead, Yeah, you're right, they shouldn't have done that,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: and this shouldn't have happened to you, but it did.
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: Accepting that can be a helpful distress tolerance tool. One
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: way to indicate willingness to your brain is to adopt
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: a willing posture. For instance, sit with your hands in
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: your lap, turned up toward the sky. It's a simple
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: postural shift. Now, I want to be really clear, these
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: tools are not meant to solve your problems. They're options
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: for how to get through difficult moments. We can't always
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: change the situations or conditions causing us pain. But even
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: when we can. We still need tools to take care
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: of our bodies and help us keep our heads on
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: straight while we problem solve and change the world. All right,
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: that's our show. Before we go, we'd love your help.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: Would you please rate and review Life Kit in your
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: podcast app? Tell us a favorite tip you've learned, or
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: which episodes you like the most. This episode of Life
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas and Claire Maurie Schneider.
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: Our digital editor is Malica garib and our visuals editor
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: is c. J. Rikalan. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor,
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our production team
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: also includes Andy Tagle and Margaret Serino. Engineering support comes
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: from Jimmy Keeley, fact checking by Tyler Jones. I'm Mariel Sagara.
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.
• 24:44
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