Latest / Art of the Question / How Smart is an Octopus Really? - Dr. Piero Amodio - #53

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How Smart is an Octopus Really? - Dr. Piero Amodio - #53 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: Piero, thank you so much for ⁓ coming on the show. ⁓ we're going to talk about octopuses today, a very interesting topic. ⁓ a lot of media attention around this incredible animal ⁓ lately, past few years. And yeah, we're going to talk about why they are such special creatures, but we are also going to find some nuance in some of the hype that people may have seen ⁓ on the internet. So really excited to get into all of it. ⁓ but before we we get into the specifics of ⁓ things, I was curious to understand when did you first get interested in studying octopus cognition and what fascinates you about these ⁓ creatures? Yeah. So thanks for having me. essentially I started working with octopus when I was an undergrad. ⁓ I knew since the start I wanted to work in animal behavior, so I'm one of those kids who love to be with animal and but this thing didn't fade away with age. ⁓ and I started I was ⁓ studying in Napoli, here my hometown, and essentially was an accident that I started working with an octopus. I wanted to find a lab that was working on behavior, and I was lucky enough to be involved in the work that was done here at the Stazione Zologica. The lab was Fioritos Lab and essentially you know I didn't pick up the octopus. I wanted work on behavior and it happened was like the best opportunity I could have. And then from there I could observe and learn about this animal and then I got hooked, essentially. That's awesome. And what ⁓ what made you hooked about ⁓ the octopus? Wha why is it such a special creature? So I love the marine environment. I was born by the sea and I love to be as much as I could ⁓ in the water. And what is very special about the octopus, I mean one of the things is that they are really interactive animals. It's something it's it's a creature that if you want to observe them, I mean you it's really hard you get annoyed. And then they are also really interactive. So they can they usually are not as shy as other animals like most fishes or and so working with them it's like a real opportunity to to be really in touch, to to engage with with another creature. And so then of course the the most amazing stuff they can do, the the ability to change appearances. And at the beginning this is something that it's really special if you if you never work with animals. So I s it started from there. And ⁓ their behavioral repertoire. So you know they can do many different things. And so it's it was like a special opportunity again. Yeah, no, I understand. Then how far does the studying of octopus ⁓ cognition go back? Because nowadays it feels very obvious that we know okay, there's something going on there, they're very different than ⁓ humans, for example, or or or certain mammals. They are really they seem to be in their own category, ⁓ as for how they are built, of course, but also how their brains ⁓ work and and that also translates into their behavior. But when did we first start to recognize this ⁓ in the science? When did we think, well, okay, there's something interesting going on there? Is not recent. You can find like one of the I think it's the first problem solving in octopus, it's the beginning of the last century. And then there was a period like around the 50s where many researchers from the UK and from abroad came here ⁓ studying learning, for instance. So it's not something new. The thing is that there are not as many labs in the world that work encephalopods compared to other systems. So the idea of studying their behavior and decognition start to be new. But the the speed in which research and scientific ⁓ advancement are going, it's so much slower than ⁓ for other for other species, for other groups. Really? ⁓ that surprises me ⁓ because in the in the mainstream ⁓ the it's a very popular ⁓ animal, of course. I mean there are more popular animals, but it it isn't that isn't necessarily being reflected in the amount of science that's being done on them. So th there are ⁓ many fields in which we are I mean researchers are catching up. and there's many new lab that are popping up. or lab that we're working on other systems and they are including saplopod as well, particularly say in the US. So there's you know work sits moving forward, but in terms of filling the gap in terms of behavior and cognition, there's still a lot of work to to be done. If you I don't know, I think that the the most interesting comparison is with the social in insect with Demenoptera. So in the last 15 years, the the amount and the significance of publication that came out in terms of bees cognition and behavior, it's amazing. And I think it's because it's so much easier to have ⁓ bees in the lab and there are many great labs that are working with bees. But ⁓ for instance Lars Chitka lab in the UK in the last 15 years they they made an amazing work and ⁓ they are really catching up. So being a Cephalpods researcher I think we are slowly trying to get there but it's it's it's slower. So to have an octopus in the lab it's much more tricky and ⁓ than to have a bee. And so numbers in terms of facility you need to have and authorization as well, so it's ⁓ it's slower. And I think this is one one key one key answer. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean obviously it's easier to have a mouse inside of a laboratory and and do some tests rather than having to build some sort of aquarium and and ⁓ yeah build everything around it necessary to perform science on on ⁓ on the octopus so I understand it. I think before we start to really dig into the specifics of ⁓ octopus cognition and some of the behavior they are showing and and what some of your research shows, but also the research of your colleagues, I think it would be ⁓ good to underscore the fact that their biology is very different than ⁓ human biology or v ⁓ biology of ⁓ other Animals, ⁓ mammals, other fish as well. And as my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that in humans, for example, we have our brains, which is a central center that basically steers everything and basically sends signals throughout our entire body. It manages everything we do. Now an octopus also has A brain and a central system, but they also have neurons throughout their entire bodies and inside of their tentacles. is is that true and and how does that influence their cognition and and behavior? Yeah, so indeed they are quite different from the vertebrates in the in the sense in their physiology, in their neurophysiology, and in the way the system works. ⁓ humans we have a kind of ⁓ representation on our body in the central brain. And ⁓ this is something that is pretty different in in the octopus. So they have a centralized brain. So compared to other mollusks, the the amount of centralization of their brain it's it's remarkable. But at the same time, they are ⁓ peripheral peripheral nervous system, which means the the ⁓ The neural connection that run through the body and in the octopus in particular within the arms, they have a high degree of autonomous autonomously. So they are quite autonomous. This means that ⁓ so research thinks that there is not such a detailed representation of all parts of the arm inside the brain. There's ⁓ so it's kind of the central brain delegate some of the work. To the peripheral nervous system, to the to the arms. This means in terms of ⁓ perceiving signals and sending signal back to the to the arms to do movement and to to do actions. And this led to the idea that the octopus has ⁓ nine brains. You know, this is something that you can find pretty easily in the press or in casual stops, which is something pretty catchy. But it's a bit more complicated than that. The thing is that if you ⁓ cut an octopus arm and you send you use some electrical stimulation, the movements you can see in the in the arms, they are pretty similar to the movement that you can see in a natural octopus arm moving around. So this means that part of the machinery that is required to do this movement is inside the arm rather than in the brain. But the way in which this connection works, so having this they call it distributed nervous system, ⁓ it's something that ⁓ is still being studied, can be super useful also for ⁓ developing new tools like robotics and stuff, but it's really like a different approach to being alive, and it's probably something that ⁓ it's really hard to to understand completely. being you know ⁓ another another system. Yeah I understand what you mean. Like it's a separate brain implies that there's different almost like ⁓ conjoint twin, but then nine times over, where they are almost separate organisms whereas it is one single organism with one brain, but the parts of the brain can operate more individually than ⁓ in in humans would and it would be similar as if some part of parts of our brain wouldn't be in the skull but one in our arm and and and one in our leg, we would still call it the same brain, part of the same ecosystem, presumably the same conscious as well. ⁓ but to to to to tell it or to to say that it's has nine brains is a bit misleading if I understand correct. Yeah, I think I think so particularly. I mean it's something that ⁓ if you have a background you can you know ⁓ see the the nuances, but if you are not studying that ⁓ can be quite misleading. And then I think one one key point is that octopuses they do not have a ⁓ a skeleton so a near structure, and this means that the movement they can make it's So they say that they have infinite degree of freedom in in the way they can move their arm. So we are constrained having a bone inside our b our our arm. So we cannot every move there. Otherwise we will break the arm. For the octopus it's different. It's like for our tongue. So we can we can do every kind of movement. And this puts like a burden in terms of control. So one of the ⁓ of the possibilities that having this peripheral nervous system was also a way to simplify the way ⁓ the central system had to control ⁓ this this degree of freedom. Right. Okay, so because of ⁓ all the complexity that these infinite freedom movements introduce, ⁓ from an evolutionary point of view, it makes more sense to have the part that's actually controlling everything locally there ⁓ and not having it to to send it from one central brain. Is is that the ⁓ hypothesis? There's still an interaction between the central and the periphery. It's not that the peripheral so one arm will go one way and the other will the other way communicating to each other. But I think the it's easier for the central brain to to send signal and to ⁓ decide what the arm will do ⁓ having this to d delegating part of the detail of the of the inputs they will they will send. Yeah, very interesting. And how does this ⁓ translate into their behavior? Because I I'm sure many people will have seen some of the incredible videos, frankly, of octopus very good at opening bottles. ⁓ they are ⁓ very good at ⁓ navigating a maze for example ⁓ they can do they can multitask, they can ⁓ do one thing with one arm and then open something else with with with the other. ⁓ so what are some of the behaviors that this ⁓ creative biology that they have ⁓ unlock? I think this is an open question. The way in which so when an octopus ⁓ explore an object, so you present them with I don't know, puzzle box with the bait inside or they are in the wild looking for food. So what they do, they tend to do is to use their suckers and their arm to explore. Physically explore the surface. And they acquire mechanical information about what they are touching, but also chemical information about the the substance, the the organism, the the substrate they are touching. And the way in which, you know, the processing of this information it's it's it's still I think ⁓ pretty much an open question. But this is key to understand the way they behave. And so how how they make decisions. So whether, you know, when there's input that are sent to the central plane, how much they are processing stuff locally. it's still some work to be done there, I think. Yeah, no, I I understand, but it's it's very cool. It's it's some of these videos that I have seen, they they show that they are I I think ⁓ it was a long time ago, but that they were ⁓ able to open certain doors or or open certain yeah, ⁓ paths that they had to go through, like a maze ⁓ unscrewing ⁓ bottle bottle caps ⁓ as well. ⁓ that's that's very yeah, it it seems they s also seem like they they are c curious cr creatures. Would would you agree? Are they are they curious? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are they tend to be so they are predators. They are prey, but they're also predator. So if they perceive so when you have them in the lab, ⁓ at the beginning they tend to be shy, but after a week or so, I think the key point is that they learn the new environment ⁓ it's predator free. That they are provided with food so they ⁓ can can learn the the new the new feature of the environment. And they usually become, of course, when we talk about octopus, something it's very important. There are hundreds of species. So you have to talk about octopuses, like if there's one one species, but there's many different species. So ⁓ I tend to refer to octopus to the to the common octopus, the one you can find in the Mediterranean. It's iconic and But then everything I say should be ⁓ when I talk about them as a group, you know, there's always the this the beauty of biology, you always have as exception. But in general they can become very bold in the lab and they can I think this is part of their biology. So they need to be bold and go out and explore ⁓ in order to find food. They are they tend to be opportunistic in their diet. Sometimes they can specialize in different food depending on the environment, but they can feed on crustacean, ⁓ other like bivalves, ⁓ on fish, they can eat other octopuses. So there's like many different diets that require different kind of food to be to be found, to be processed. So they need to be bold. Yeah. Do they have eyes? How do they perceive the world around them? They they can see. They had two eyes, which are pretty pretty developed. It's actually one of the textbook examples of convergent evolution compared to the vertebrates. So it's like an eye that develops independently, but they are they had pretty good eyes. ⁓ People think that they are colorblind. So compared to us, it's quite as to humans, it's quite a different system, but they can perceive polarized light. Again, it's like a creature that stands the habitat, the environment in a very different way than what we do. But at the same time, they if you look at an octopus that's doing this amazing color changing, texture changes. These are tricks and abilities that evolve in the context of predation. So all their ability to change color and to to be ⁓ to match their background or to do other tricks. It's related to the evolution of their prey. And so ⁓ they are colored. So they have colored pigmented inside their skin. So it's like a multi-layer system, pretty complicated ⁓ from the from a ph physiological point of view. And they can they can exhibit colors even though they they don't perceive it. And likely is that because they this is a trick to to fool other other kind of predators that evolve differently. So it's like a pretty interesting in a way. That's incredible. So yeah, I I've seen those those videos where they are able to to to yeah to basically copy the color and not just the color, also the very ⁓ specific patterns of the environment, ⁓ whether it's stripes or some sort of other texture that they're hovering above. yeah I don't know you must have I don't know if you've ever used paint or Photoshop or something, but there's like the tool where you can ⁓ basically copy the color. So it's ⁓ the the that that's basically what they have in their entire skin. But then knowing that they won't even really be able to perceive their own color change, I mean there's not many mirrors in the ocean, but still it's still quite Incredible that nature managed to evolve something, something like that. So how how does that do do we know how they are able to sense the texture and and color of the objects they are trying to copy? So the change of they call it body pattern. So by body pattern, people refer to the color, to the text a texture, and to the posture. So with these three elements, the octopus and the cephalopods, they can can try to reproduce a background or a specific element, like I don't know, like a rock, like a some algae or other animals. So they in some cases they can mimic, you know, other other creature. And this color changing, this body pattern changing ability, it's neurally controlled. So it's not something that they it's happened without some kind of input from from the central brain. But the way in which whether there's some significant ⁓ control from the peripheral nervous system in terms of perceiving the light in the in the the environment, for instance, it is something that it's really could be really really relevant. And but the thing is that they use this color changing ability also for communication. So it's most likely something that's evolved for antipredatory reasons, but then Most species they have a social repertoire, particularly in the formating. So there's male that can exhibit, you know, ⁓ courtship display. There's cattlefish that can ⁓ males that can mimicry a female. So when there's a rival, they can like a larger rival, so to avoid competition and fight, they can pretend to be a smaller female, try to sneak population with them. So it's like There can be quite a complex body pattern changing and repertoire also for communication. And ⁓ and then you have the one of the most iconic species in this regard is the mimic octopus. So they can ⁓ mimic so reproduce the appearances of many different local species. They these guys tend to live in like Indonesia and other closer tropical seas. And they can mimic ⁓ they tend to mimic dangerous species that are living there, like sea snakes or predatory fish. And so they use ⁓ the posture and the color to pretend to be someone else and likely to to avoid being approached by predators just by pretending that they are ⁓ you know not octopuses. But again. Behavior is for sure very intelligent. So when I refer to intelligent behavior, I tend to imagine evolution as the intelligence entity that gave them the skills to do that. The tricky part is always to see ⁓ how ⁓ complex it's from the cognitive perspective. So there's a strong innate predisposition to do that. But the octopus is when So they they tend to live short lives and they ⁓ essentially they need to be built with some behavioral repertoire that allow them not to be eaten very fast. So it's very unlikely that they are born without knowing how to, you know, to avoid predators and to perform this camouflage response or this mimic behavior. But then it's not like a black and white thing. So it's likely they have this predisposition, but they Can they learn to adjust it through learning, through experience? And so I don't know, modify their behavior or do that in certain circumstances. And to me, that's the tricky part. So we still know very little about how complex is the behavior from the cognitive perspective. And most of the cases, because there's just a few experiments that they're trying to figure this out. Yeah, that's so incredibly interesting because there's so much to unpack there, right? First of all, there's the ability itself. So that is twofold. First of all, you have to recognize this texture and the colors of your environment without even being able to perceive the colors with your eyes. So ⁓ presumably there are some different sensors on the body that allow for color and pattern recognition. And then there's the ability for the actual skin to change and to copy this observed pattern, which is incredible by itself. And then there's the different use cases that they use it for. So it can be used for hunting, ⁓ camouflage, wall hunting. It can be per used to hide from other predators, and then it can also be used in mating scenarios to either impress women or to avoid competition. So that's yeah, it's it's such a cool, cool skill. It's it's I I mean I get why we will we will get into the hype ⁓ part later, but you have to understand like that is some pretty incredible stuff. So yeah, I I'm I'm not surprised why people call these ⁓ yeah ⁓ aliens ⁓ sometimes. That's that's very cool. And and ⁓ are they ⁓ y you said something about the ⁓ c that they use it for communication as well. Are they are they social creatures? Yeah, so again when we talk about cephalopods, there are more than 700 species. Yes. In general, what you have is that octopuses tend to be solitary, so they do not live in groups. There are some places where they can ⁓ so there's highly crowded population, ⁓ where you can have dens of different octopuses that are close to each other. most likely these scenarios are where places where there's a lot of food, but dens are a more rare resource, like a sandy bottom area for some species that prefer Rocky dens, and then you have a place where ⁓ like a place of rock when you have different holes. So the octopus tend to be forced to live together and they can tolerate ⁓ each other because of their the high availability of resources. Then the the most social species are tend to be the squids, so they can live in in very large groups. ⁓ cattlefish are somehow in the middle, there's some in some species there. Aggregation. So either when they are very young or when they're there are mating aggregation. So in Australia for the giant cattle fishes, some data it's very, very ⁓ popular. So there's many individuals that go ⁓ at least to one place and they do that in order to find mate. So usually this is the you know the key differences between the the three group, ⁓ the three key group, because we also have nautiluses within the saplopods. And nautiluses are also Quite interesting because they are the only cephalopods that have the extern they they retain the external shell. So all the cephalopods ⁓ lost or internalized their shell. So octopuses have no remain of the shell. Cattlefish and the squids, they have an internal structure that ⁓ was the update version of the external shell. But then you have a few species of Nautiluses which are completely different creatures. So they never lost their shell during their evolution. They they they are very different, so they can live up to 20 years. While most cephalopods live ⁓ you know, from one to three, four years. And so these guys are they do not see as good as the other cephalopods. They tend to be opportunistic feeders going up and out in a water column. But it's like they are a kind of window in how a different way cephalopods were, even though the living cephalopods without the shell are not directly ⁓ descendant from these, from them, from the anthodosis. So it's but it's a very interesting comparison, you know, having these two. That's super cool. And ⁓ when we're talking about the the communication, I mean we've I know that there's many different ⁓ s sorts of octopuses out there, ⁓ but some of them do communicate, as you mentioned with ⁓ the the shape shifting, the color changes to communicate, even though they cannot perceive the colors of the the the the changed ⁓ skin, they are probably able to to see the different texture and and patterns there. ⁓ but how w what do we know about the sophistication of the communication? ⁓ is it ⁓ merely to so some animals ⁓ for example have names for each other, ⁓ some of them ⁓ warn each other, ⁓ so there's a variety of how complex animal communication gets. ⁓ where does the octopus sit in terms of that complication? Yeah, so ⁓ in oc in octopuses in particular the main thing is that their social environment it's not as complex. They do not have to live they do not tend to live in in groups and this means they have no need to identify, you know, ⁓ individuals. There's some in some data that they can ⁓ distinguish between someone that they have met in the past. So perhaps something that can be useful if you find an A an octopus living in a neighboring home range, and so you can find it again. But even in squid, so the the main idea is that these groups are kind of anonymous aggregation, which is quite different from the way we we think about social system in in the vertebrates, for instance, when you have, you know, ⁓ either groups made by relatives like in many many mammals or when you have in birds for instance where the pair it's really important so you have the the pair that share the the challenge of raising the ⁓ their eggs and their their kids and so often you have species where you have lum like lifelasting ⁓ mating bond with the with the pair mate and so you There's really a need to actually identify then interact and coordinate with someone and also within the group. So you need to these this system in this system they can form alliances, they have quite complicated social life. There the impression is that ⁓ in terms of relating with conspecific, we do not think that it's the same for Cephalbot. So this kind of social challenge are quite different. ⁓ again, we s Still know very little, particularly in the wild. So studying marine ⁓ aquatic species is much more challenging than for terrestrial species. And when you have species that are ⁓ alone and that they camouflage and then change place, it's like not not quite easy to do that. But ⁓ so we may we may find system and information that challenges for in terms of social complexity. What I find really interesting for the octopus is that at least it's one species that it's has been described hunting with fishes. So you have this seems to be a collaborative hunting where you have a fish and an octopus that ⁓ go out together and they they coordinate their action in order to hunt. And you know, this challenge a bit the way that they are Social cognition it's it's just not there. So you you may have different kind of ⁓ opportunity and challenges to develop some kind of social cognitive abilities because you have different kind of challenges. And you know being able to cooperate with someone that it's so different from you in terms of how they sense the word, that their behavior, it's quite impressive. That's incredibly impressive. And what does that look like? What does their joint hunting efforts look like in practice? So this has been described for a species that they call the Dei Octopus, is octopus chania. It's found in different tropical places from the Red Sea to Australia. so there's many species that hunt together. With them, but ⁓ to me what is the most interesting case it's a coral trout, it's a coral grouper. It just happened to be I'm working on a project related to this. So I've got you know this 3D prints or something, this look like the the coral trout. And what happened is that ⁓ this this fish ⁓ can recruit an octopus. So essentially the fish look for ⁓ an octopus that is just sitting outside its den. And they can make a kind of shimmy movement of the body, trying to have the octopus following him. They go together, they move together, and the fish can use a visual display to tell the octopus where a prey is hid. So it's like it's called the handstand signal. So essentially the fish tend to point at ⁓ a hole and then move the move the body, and the octopus can react. to this signal by going there and inserting his arm inside a hole. Okay? So the th the key thing is that these two partners they have different hunting strategy. The octopus can you know reach holes and crevices so a prey is not safe when it's inside there. While the grouper it's very fast in in making speed and and ⁓ getting the prey when it's in the open. So the the key of this collaboration seems to be this complementary of the the the complementary of the skill of the two. And so what's happened seems to be that sometimes the octopus can grab the the prey that was hidden. In other cases the prey can manage to escape to a different holes. So in the in the coral reef, you know, holes and crevices are really complex, they can they have many different holes. So when the the small fish can can escape, then the grouper has an opportunity to to size it in the open. And so the what I'm really interested in at the moment is try to figure out how this partnership ⁓ evolved and in terms of ⁓ whether the octopus has some kind of predisposition to understand the signal, whether this is more individual learning. So Because the fish is signaling closer to to where the hole is, the octopus just sees something doing the fish doing something weird and go check the that out. And over time they learn that ⁓ can be, you know, ⁓ a useful response because you can you can get food and how important it's for a solitary species to to aggregate and collaborate with with another ⁓ another fish. Yeah, so you know, they can be quite surprising. That's awesome. That's such a cool story. I love that. And ⁓ w how do they ⁓ s share the loot? How do they share the meal? Is it fifty fifty or or how do they it's because it's really t tricky to to track the prey. Yeah. In terms they will not share the same prey half and half. Okay. But more statistical thing, sometimes the octopus scales, sometimes the fish. But it's really hard to track in the wild the how they share statistically the thing, whether, for instance, would be really, really interesting to say whether you know there is ⁓ some kind of individual relationship. So if the same fish Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. There was ⁓ something in the connection. Okay, now I can hear you. So if the same fish go look for the same octopus because it's a reliable partner, or or the other way around, whether they can prefer, you know, individual relationship or whether it's something more opportunistic. And how much ⁓ in terms of energy and time the octopus devote To this kind of collaborative hunting relative to ⁓ solitary hunting, which is the you know the most common behaviour you can see in these guys. That's cool. And is that the the robot f is that the the fish you showed me? Is that one of the robot fish you're working with or is that something different? Because I I saw in my preparation of our talk today that you're using a robot fish to study octopus hunting. That is this example? Yeah, we are ⁓ yeah, we are working on a project with ⁓ that is focused on this collaborative hunting with Eduardo Sampaio from the Max Planck and people at the Santana still at the Max Planck. And so yeah, the idea is to to look at this behavior using robots. This is a a 3D printed dummy, so it's just like ⁓ nothing electronic in it, it's just like a a fancy toy. But yeah it's Cool. And the you you ⁓ previously you did ⁓ a study, I believe it was called Grow Smart Die Young. what can you maybe elaborate what what you did there and what what what the findings of that study were? Yeah, so essentially this was a theoretical paper. So it was we didn't analyze data or collect data. The what we did was to you know try to put pieces together and trying to ⁓ to build hypothesis that need to be tested concerning the evolution of cognition in octopuses and so we we made some comparison with the most established group in the study of the evolution of intelligence so the mammals so the the primates there some birds like the corvids the the ⁓ the parrots the cetacean highlighting differences and similarities in the in the way they are in their niches or the their ecology, their social world, and trying to figure out so when we put when you put all the pieces together, you actually can have a clear look of how different and how special saple bodies are. ⁓ One key thing is their lifespan. So there's there seems to be a strong correlation between The slow life histories and brain complexity or cognition. So species that are usually considered the most intelligent, they tend to develop slowly and live longer. And there's different hypotheses. One is that ⁓ the brain needs time to develop and they need to learn skills from others, parents, group members, but also that by becoming smart, you can, you know, overcome challenges. over the lifespan and so you manage to you know to push the your lifespan ⁓ but with the cephalopods this is this seems not to be the case so the the species with the more complex repertoire are not the ones that tend to live longer and if we go back to to what I was mentioning about the Nautiluses they can actually live up to 20 years and they develop ⁓ so they they mate And reproduce multiple times over their lifespan. Most cephalopods they have short lives, they live from one to two, three years. And most species they mate several times within a short window. So they are promiscuous. A single male mate with several females, a single female mate with several males, and then the female lay eggs of many males, the eggs ⁓ ashes, and then They die of senescence. Now, again, there's more nuances. There are 700 species, so it's more complicated than that. But the general trend is that they grow fast and and die young compared to the, you know, the complexity of their behavior and their brain. And so this is quite ⁓ complex compared to the quite different compared to the to the mammals and the birds. And the other key difference concerns the the social environment. So one of the leading hypotheses for the evolution of cognition is that the challenges the cognitive challenges in the social environment play the key role triggering the evolution of complex abilities. So the animals need to remember ⁓ individually all members of the groups that their previous interaction, they form alliances, and so this cognitive burden may have pushed for enhanced cognition. But if you look again at cephalopods, the complexity of their social environment does not seem to be equivalent to that of the mammals and birds. So they do not have these ⁓ long lasting bonds with group members, they do not create a pair bond with the mate that lasts for for for the life. And so these two key difference made them quite interesting. From the evolution of cognition. So then there may be, of course, there are other hypotheses for the vertebrates, for the primates. It's the the other key ⁓ hypothesis, it's called the ecological intelligence hypothesis. There's many different variations, but the key idea is that the need to find and process and ⁓ different kind of food or specific kind of food like for primates to the tools. So the extractive foraging, food that requires some kind of complex manipulation, may have played a key role. And these ecological challenges may ⁓ in terms of foraging may apply to cephalopods. But one of the key points, the key difference may be in terms of predation. So cephalopods are predator but they are prey. So they are preyed by bony fishes, ⁓ by sharks, by cetacean, by ⁓ marine birds. Without the external shell, they are much more vulnerable. And so if be if acquiring this complex behavior, quick decision making and flexibility, it's likely that the key ⁓ pressure was to avoid to be eaten. At the same time, when you when you live in an environment that is so complicated and so harsh in terms of predatory pressure, it's wise in terms of evolution not to delay your reproduction. So if an octopus want to live fifty years, but most of them they get it and by the second years, then the species will go ext extinct. So it's much more ⁓ clever evolutionarily to have you know to to grow fast and ⁓ reproduce ⁓ sooner because otherwise you may not have the chance to reproduce. So it's like potentially this system it's preventing them to have a longer lifespan. but again the the paper and the the idea it's ⁓ they are these are hypotheses. So to do that you need ⁓ data for many different species in terms of cognitive complexity, which is the other key issue. So when you study cognition, you cannot there's no machine that allows you to to measure cognition and give you a number about how smart it's a species. Okay. So you you either need to look at behavior. So you devise some test or make some observation controlling variable or ⁓ trying to do so and look at the behavioral response, try to infer the cognitive complexity. Or the other approach is to look at the brain. So the brain complexity and and try to quantify this, which is always, you know, it's always slippery. Both of them has have pros and cons. And so this means that ⁓ It's really hard to do that. And when f with cephalopods, you don't have clean data for many species. ⁓ in terms of behavior, in terms of brain, but also in terms of how complex it's the if you want to relate the brain complexity with their challenges, you really need to do what these guys are doing in the wild, how many species they are eating, how many predators they are doing so, and then species tend to have large home ranges. This means that the predators The common octopus as in Napoli may not be the same, that the same species as in the UK, that they are not they are now blooming there. So when you have one individual and you try to get all this information for a single individual or just a few, your ⁓ picture of the species is quite you know blur. And so it's I mean it's challenging, it's it's beautiful and can be really interesting. But You need to be honest with the quality of data you you get and you can get. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. Yeah. That's a nice segue into something I really wanted to talk about. And that is the hype around ⁓ octopuses and and how they're sometimes being treated as ⁓ hyperintelligent, almost alien uh-like species. ⁓ there are some very impressive examples of what seems to be intelligence, at least they seem to be quite resourceful and they know how to to solve ⁓ certain problems. ⁓ I believe there was a video of the the coconut octopus, I believe, ⁓ where it was seen carrying ⁓ coconut shells, ⁓ which was ⁓ yeah quite difficult for for this octopus to move around. And it was going to use it as a shell, which many people then interpreted as proof that they are able to plan ahead and that they're able to picture ⁓ their future. I believe there was also a study done ⁓ regarding the the famous marshmallow test, ⁓ about the for the a cuddlefish ⁓ spin-off ⁓ about self-control. So I was kinda interested to to go into Some of the behaviors that we've seen, some of the experience that that were done about cognition, interesting examples, but also why it's so important to caveat some of those and ⁓ why we can't draw conclusions from from one single observation. Yeah. So I think the the Toolus study you mentioned, it's like the the key example. So ⁓ we are humans, we use tools every day. And historically the the ability of animals to use tools was something so there was a point where the ability to use tools was included in the definition of being humans. You know this was challenged when Jane Goodell found that chimpanchees can use could fish for termites using sticks, and so this challenged the way we see thing. But still the tool usability is something received as something impressive. ⁓ Then over times people discover that many different species can do that, and to lose it's a very broad category. So this can be the results of cultural transmission. So some individual learning from ⁓ other that invented the behavior somehow, or can be ⁓ an innate behavior, so something that an individual can develop without. The need of ⁓ any kind of ⁓ teaching or models or individual invention. the observation about the coconut octopus. So there's this octopus, the vein octopus in Australia, they can pile up coconut shells one above the other and then carry them around. This is this seems to be a future-oriented behavior. So it's something that the octopus does in that moment, not because it confers an advantage. On the other side, ⁓ carrying the coconut is something that ⁓ forces the octopus to move more slowly and to be more visible to Predator. So the benefit of the behavior is in the future when they can reassemble the coconut as a den. But claiming that the octopus in that moment has ⁓ is doing some some kind of future planning ability. So the octopus is actually thinking that okay. I may carry these tools because in the future I may need them. This is a big jump. So there's many different possibilities that can explain the behavior. But to to today, until today, there's no single experiment about two leaves encephalpods. So if you think about primates and birds, there are tens of experiments looking at their different stuff. Encephalods, there's not a single experiment. So based on that observation, I believe was like the paper was two thousand seven or so it's like ⁓ this is a key example how how slower can be self-level's research compared to other systems. So this is an impressive behavior. But in terms of how impressive is the cognition underlying it, we are no closer to the truth than almost 20 years ago. So if you don't run experiment, you have, you know. There's many different interpretation that are as ⁓ valid without you know empirical data. About the hype. I I don't have a clear answer. I just know that when I started as an undergrad, I was, you know, so enthusiastic about the the octopus and I was you know telling people these guys can do very interesting behavior, maybe they are quite smart. After year after year, now I I feel I have to push people back constantly. I've been asked, what do you do? I study animal behavior octopuses. The first thing I get is that they are very intelligent. Like the first thing. Don't matter if this a child or a grandma. It's it's the same response. And it's it's impressive. So the the hype around this animal ⁓ I think the there ⁓ may have been ⁓ some key communication product, some documentary like the My Octopus teacher that was ⁓ it's unbelievable how it could ⁓ get people closer to the octopus. ⁓ I think the the key point was the relationship, was not like the a classic documentary in which you have, you know, animals doing their thing in their life, but there was A relationship with the person, and this may have allowed people that do not watch ⁓ natural documentary to to be involved. Octopses have many biological features which are very peculiar. And you know, there's this classic tradition about the sea monster, so there's many different elements, but this this hype, it's it's lasting. And I was I was surprised. ⁓ I thought it would I mean it would be a few years, but there have been you know follow-up like ⁓ there's a great boot by Peter Godfrey Smith and may have ⁓ maybe it's another audience but may have got people closer to that and then other documentaries by by others. But to be honest, I I cannot give ⁓ an answer. I mean bees are amazing. just don't know if you know there's animal that you can be scared of, they can sting you, and so it's the the the approach, it's it's more tricky for for the general public. But there are many different animals that are I'd say they are as amazing and and as the octopus, but they are they are not getting that attention and they're so really I'm really curious to see how long this would last where people would get bored. Or no. Yeah, no, it's so it's so funny. I I that was that was great. And ⁓ there's a couple things I wanna unpack there. ⁓ first is the the thing about my octopus teacher is about the the rela what makes it so fascinating is the relationship between ⁓ the animal and and and the human, if you will. And then that it spoke to a lot of people, obviously. ⁓ so w w what is the evidence on Are are some of the octopus species and they can indeed recognize specific people? Is it is it ⁓ d established that it is possible to form a bond with an octopus, similar to how people can form a bond with a dog or or a cat, for example? I wouldn't so dogs and cats they are animals that are domesticated. Yes. It's quite different from ⁓ wild animals. Yes. I'd say I wouldn't be surprised if an octopus that can see the same individual multiple times and particularly if this is in the lab and the animal gets food from the individual, that the octopus can identify individually that person. I wouldn't be surprised. In terms of creating a bond, it's it's very tri I'm sure the human can do that. I I Can you can become attached to if you like animals and you can they have different so individuals are different, so you can ⁓ find a specific octopus more interesting or fascinating than another one. From the octopus perspective, I'm not sure ⁓ whether you know this can be perceived as as kind of bond. ⁓ yeah. It's also difficult to communicate with them, right? But ⁓ there are there could be ⁓ But I I there there are some examples of wild animals, not necessarily in the ocean, but ⁓ perhaps dolphins though. ⁓ and and perhaps ⁓ some some I there's these videos about ⁓ how maybe someone used to work with a tiger or even a bear and then ten years later the guy comes back and then the tiger comes comes running and they give each other a hug and It's like, okay, d this is a wild animal, but apparently they do really seem to recognize each other and they are able to find The point is that recognizing that person versus giving the person a hug. So you know it's like Yeah, no, it's it's true. It's it's difficult. ⁓ speaking of of of the hype ⁓ following my octopus teacher, and now you almost having to push back sometimes. ⁓ every everyone just assumes they're hyper intelligent creatures. Is is that a bad thing? Is it is it dangerous that that w when when people get these assumptions, is it is it good that there's so much attention for for for octopuses right now? Does it help the science? Is it dangerous for the science? What what do we make of it? So in terms of attention like f for science may have some good sides in terms of pushing the research. So people that want to so in terms of getting more information about octopus. So pushing people to to study them or in terms of conservation, so protect protecting habitat. So there's many people that I also the second thing I get very very often is that I stopped eating octopus. Yes. Like you can get ⁓ positive sides also in terms of ⁓ environmental issue and people that are really willing and key to to help conservate an habitat because so you know conservation and treaty, and sometimes it's very handy to have a flag species that people care about, even if you want to protect the habitat. But if the people engage with that species can be useful for many others. As a researcher I'm I'm a bit ⁓ so I don't like when information is twisted. So to me as a research I work as a public researcher. So my job is to go out there, try to look for stuff that we don't know, do my research and then share it. So when when from my perspective things are twisted, I feel it's I mean it's part of my job to do science dissemination. I'm not trained to for it, so I'm doing that as much as I could. But then when information is twisted, it's it's it's lost for me. And and it's more tricky when people think that they know something rather than people know that they don't know something to try to rectify the thing. So if you don't know anything about octopus, I can try to to share something that to me it's a simplified version of ⁓ what I'm doing. But if you already have an idea and something you're really ⁓ clinging to. So to to to tell you that okay, we don't know how smart they are. If you really you already are sure that they are the the chimps of the sea, then it's much more complicated. And so I think there's ⁓ so the work of science disseminator and science journaling it's really tricky. And but I I think there's this could be done like more carefully sometimes and avoid to to give this ⁓ be closer to to what scientists are thinking and what they are doing rather than you know s squeezing everything into ⁓ a sentence and they are intelligent. Yeah, I I really understand what you mean there because it's so hard for people to unlearn something. And in the Netherlands, I'm sure it's also outside of the Netherlands, but they're now where with the introduction of ChatGPT and Claude. ⁓ many people start doing their own research and ⁓ lawyers have actually complained about all of their clients now doing their own research on on their cases but chat gpt makes a lot of mistakes right and lawyers are spending so much time just to convince their client of the fact that their research that ChatGPT was wrong basically and that Claude ⁓ didn't do a good analysis. So I see some similarities there where It's very annoying as the professional, in your case, the science researcher, in this case, the lawyer, where you are the expert on the topic or at least you're trying to find the truth, ⁓ trying to look for it, and then now you're dealing with ⁓ people that are convinced of something because they saw it on the internet, whether it was from a documentary or ⁓ from ⁓ Chat GPT. But I I I see some funny similarities there, so I can really ⁓ understand it. ⁓ f finally, you you've all also ⁓ participated in a documentary ⁓ recently, ⁓ I bel I believe was in in collaboration ⁓ with Rhyme. ⁓ what was that like? So to be to be inside the the product, the storytelling thing. Yeah, yeah. How was it to work on such a big production and and and be there included as a as a professional? What was interesting was like my I had worked like more tiny involvement in in previous stuff, but this was like the biggest thing I've been participating with. Yeah. And was the experience itself in the field and with the production was ⁓ was really was really nice. I found people that were genuinely interested in the in the work we we were doing in Mexico and this rare species. What what sometimes ⁓ I have with with interacting with this science production is that you cannot cannot follow the whole process. So you are asked to ⁓ do something ⁓ to do your thing inside the documentary and then you don't have a clear idea of how the product will will develop. Yes. Until it's out. And so this is something that to me can be I'm I'm happy with the documentary, but ⁓ like in general as as a a pipeline, it's something that I ideally I would love to, you know, to be more involved in the ⁓ in all phases to be, you know, can be helpful or say, okay, maybe ⁓ this could be done in a bit different. It's not my rule. Just saying the it can be surprising then seeing the the the the whole final product and You know, again, everything we did. No, I understand. I understand. It's it's also ⁓ there's going to be editors and every there's a ⁓ many people involved and ⁓ stuff gets gets cut out. I I completely ⁓ completely understand what you mean. Is there is there anything ⁓ that we haven't ⁓ discussed that would be interesting to mention while we're still on on the topic of ⁓ octopuses? I think we touched the I mean we can talk about this all day. But ⁓ I think the the key point or at least what are the what I consider the key point about octopus intelligence and are there. Then we could, you know, again, talk about ⁓ data and papers and different kind of behavior. But I think overall we we we touched the the key point and gave a fair overview of yeah. Yeah. No, I I think so too. It was very, very interesting and I'm very curious to to stay up to date on ⁓ the study you're currently ⁓ doing ⁓ with ⁓ the joint hunting. That's such a fascinating ⁓ story. If ⁓ people like me want to stay up to date with ⁓ the work ⁓ that you're doing, what is the best ⁓ place to go? Maybe a website, maybe some social media channels ⁓ people could follow? Yeah, ⁓ so the I have ⁓ profile on my research institution this the Stazione Zologica Antondori in Italy and I'm trying to to have this Instagram page to where I share ⁓ update. I'm not so good with social media so I'm doing my best. But yeah you can find me on on Instagram and I'm trying to do that. Perfect. Well I'm I'll make sure to to link everything ⁓ in the in the show notes ⁓ thank you so much for for coming on the show, Pierre. This was ⁓ so fascinating. I had a lot of fun and I learned ⁓ so much and I'm ⁓ I'm very ⁓ grateful for your for your time and ⁓ yeah, maybe ⁓ we can ⁓ run it back someday ⁓ if you ⁓ have some cool new findings ⁓ to share. Yeah, thanks you for having me and yeah, we'll be in touch and happy to have another round at some point.