Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / Feminine Power: What It Really Is and How to Claim It for Yourself

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Feminine Power: What It Really Is and How to Claim It for Yourself · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:05
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
• 0:07
  Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:13
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:20
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:29
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
• 0:34
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:35
  Mary: Hi and welcome to the show.
• 0:39
  Mary: If I say women's power, what images come to mind?
• 0:43
  Mary: Do you picture Rosie the Riveter with her sleeve rolled up, showing her bicep?
• 0:48
  Mary: Do you visualize a woman with a sneer and a shaved head standing with her foot up on a concrete block or the corpse of a foe?
• 0:56
  Mary: If what you saw in your mind's eye was anything similar, it's not surprising.
• 1:01
  Mary: Our culture has a very specific idea of what power looks like.
• 1:03
  Mary: And it's not surprising.
• 1:04
  Mary: Our culture has a very specific idea of what power looks like and it's typically masculine.
• 1:07
  Mary: Did you ever look at print ads with an eye on how men and women are portrayed?
• 1:12
  Mary: Men often look stony-faced, with a strategic five o'clock shadow and shoulders squared towards the camera.
• 1:18
  Mary: They take up their space.
• 1:20
  Mary: Women in ads Often smiling, sometimes with the slightly seductive finger hooked in the corner of her mouth, eyes often downcast, because haven't all of us at some point been told that our power is knowing how to use our feminine wiles?
• 1:37
  Mary: And when women do face the camera unsmiling, they are often wearing masculine outfits or counteract the look of power by either being partially unclothed or excruciatingly thin.
• 1:50
  Mary: And, by the way, thin does not mean powerless.
• 1:54
  Mary: Even ads for children mirror these stereotypical portrayals of masculine power and feminine demureness.
• 2:01
  Mary: When I think of women's power, I think of the natural strength that nearly all of us have.
• 2:06
  Mary: First, we grow humans in our bodies.
• 2:09
  Mary: Historically, women have been powerful healers, and even that was a source of fear.
• 2:14
  Mary: Women were literally killed for their knowledge.
• 2:17
  Mary: Women are often able to express emotion and have the ability to navigate painful feelings in our heart and our bodies.
• 2:25
  Mary: Hello menstrual cramps.
• 2:27
  Mary: And raise kids, go to work or any other number of life tasks we have on our plates.
• 2:32
  Mary: To me, I love being a woman, with all the messy and complex ways we feel, the nuanced roles embodied in being a woman and the way we find strength in our friendships and joy and beauty.
• 2:43
  Mary: But, Mary, you might be thinking what's wrong with finding inspiration from Rosie the Riveter Nothing but power is much more than that, and even as I'm saying this, I'm fighting my urge to reassure any men listening that they are okay too.
• 2:59
  Mary: I'm sure that's socialization, and we're going to touch a bit on how that might play into a woman's way of being in male-female intimate relationships.
• 3:08
  Mary: So let's get to it.
• 3:10
  Mary: I am in awe of the knowledge and work of my guest today, Dr Robin Buckley.
• 3:14
  Mary: For one, y'all know I have talked about the art of combining mental health training with coaching, so I admire her insight in combining education, training and expertise in both clinical psychology and coaching to support her work with clients.
• 3:29
  Mary: Robin focuses on the application of cognitive behavioral strategies to mental wellness in the workplace and women's equity and empowerment.
• 3:38
  Mary: She also developed her proprietary coaching model to guide individuals and couples to the lives they want.
• 3:45
  Mary: Her work as an expert in the field has been featured on multiple media platforms, including Entrepreneur Chief Authority Magazine, nike, and on the 2023 TED stage.
• 3:58
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Robin.
• 4:01
  Mary: I'm really looking forward to talking today about women and the concept of power
• 4:05
  Mary: Me too, mary, one of my favorite topics.
• 4:07
  Mary: Okay, I probably say take up your space in nearly every episode of my show, but I also recognize in my work as a therapist that many women don't really have an idea what that means for them and they often don't know how to do it.
• 4:25
  Mary: Or I think sometimes women feel like we need to be one way in our career and another way in our intimate relationships.
• 4:34
  Mary: So could we start with first your journey to where you are today, working with and educating women about accessing their power.
• 4:44
  Robin: My journey is a real simple story.
• 4:46
  Robin: It was maybe a little cliche, but it was my mom.
• 4:48
  Robin: My mom was a strong, one of the strongest people I've ever met, and she raised me and my sister to follow.
• 4:58
  Robin: And then, on top of it, I had two daughters.
• 5:00
  Robin: So my world has, from the very beginning, been been focused on thinking about women and girls, how to empower them, how to and I'll use your catchphrase to take up space.
• 5:11
  Robin: To take up their space, to use their space for what they want, which is a word most women are not familiar with or comfortable with saying is this is what I want.
• 5:23
  Robin: So when I went into my PhD program in clinical psych, I really do love psychology, but the intervention crisis based model that is in traditional psychology or therapy didn't resonate with me as a person, because my mom raised me that there's always a solution.
• 5:41
  Robin: You keep working hard until you find the solution that works for you, and coaching aligns with that very much.
• 5:48
  Robin: It's very proactive, it's very goal-centered and it aligns really well with my background in cognitive behavioral strategy.
• 5:55
  Robin: So it was a really easy dovetail for me.
• 5:58
  Robin: And then I continued to get to work with the population I really love, which is women, or women within their relationships.
• 6:06
  Mary: And I think that is such an advantage.
• 6:10
  Mary: When women can start with a role model, that's strong, and what a great thing then to pass on to your daughters.
• 6:18
  Mary: So I don't know if what I said in the intro, I don't know if that's often what you hear or experience in your work with women, but when you think of the words powerful woman, what comes to mind for you?
• 6:33
  Robin: Well, I said it earlier, it's when a woman can clearly articulate and work towards what she wants.
• 6:41
  Robin: It isn't about demanding towards what she wants.
• 6:49
  Robin: It isn't about demanding I mean, you can demand it, but it's taking the steps that are part of truly achieving what you want in your career, in your personal life, in your sex life, in your everything.
• 6:58
  Robin: That, to me, is power, and there's no judgment when one life for one woman looks very different from the life for another woman.
• 7:07
  Robin: Who's to say, I mean, if that's where she finds power, if that's where she can claim who she really is, not living up to some standard or portraying some role, but it truly getting to that point of like this, this is, this is who I am truly getting to that point of like this is who I am, this is what I want and this is what I will do to achieve it.
• 7:28
  Robin: That to me is powerful.
• 7:39
  Mary: So what happens when a woman doesn't have the role model you have?
• 7:40
  Mary: Because I think a lot of people first of all think of a powerful woman and I think of a lot of stereotypes from movies.
• 7:47
  Mary: They think of this woman as scary, but I also think women sometimes are scared of their own power.
• 7:54
  Mary: What do you think about that?
• 7:57
  Robin: Yeah, I think it's interesting.
• 7:58
  Robin: I don't know if I would agree that they're scared of their own power as much as they're scared of that feeling of power.
• 8:04
  Robin: And I'll explain.
• 8:05
  Robin: We aren't typically socialized and indoctrinated into the idea of what does power feel like, so when we start to feel that it's uncomfortable, it's unusual, we're not used to it, and all of a sudden we pull away from it.
• 8:21
  Robin: That's where I think it's different, that we're not scared of power, but we're not used to that feeling.
• 8:26
  Robin: And anytime any human has an experience that is uncomfortable or unusual, we tend to run away from it.
• 8:33
  Robin: Our brain says, nope, that's not our comfort zone.
• 8:35
  Robin: So we pull back.
• 8:37
  Robin: You know, speaking up for ourselves or promoting our ideas, giving ourselves credit, those are not things that, for many women, we are trained and conditioned to do, and so when we do it, all of a sudden it's like, oh, and our amygdala, which is the part of our brain that creates fear and anxiety, imposter syndrome, tells us no, no, no, no, that's not your place.
• 9:00
  Robin: Pull back.
• 9:00
  Robin: And for many women we might.
• 9:03
  Robin: But so I don't think we fear power.
• 9:07
  Robin: I think we fear the unusual feeling of power if that makes sense.
• 9:12
  Mary: Oh, it totally makes sense, and I also probably referenced the amygdala in half my episodes because it really is a well, it's a smoke.
• 9:22
  Mary: I say it's a smoke detector that goes off when the toast is burning.
• 9:26
  Mary: The house isn't burning down.
• 9:27
  Mary: But we think these little things, even as you're saying a little step, can feel like oh wait, this isn't where I'm supposed to be, this isn't my lane.
• 9:39
  Robin: Right, exactly, yeah, I the amygdala to me.
• 9:43
  Robin: And I don't know, I'm not sure how candid I can be, but I'll just say it.
• 9:47
  Robin: Very often I'll talk to my clients and I'll say our amygdalas can be assholes and if we don't train our amygdala to settle down, let our prefrontal cortex kick in.
• 9:58
  Robin: Our amygdala is going to run around like a toddler on caffeine and that will control our lives.
• 10:03
  Robin: And for women, like a toddler on caffeine and that will control our lives and for women.
• 10:08
  Robin: We sink into that then and we are filled with worries and self doubt and insecurity and all the things that undermine us and deplete our power.
• 10:14
  Robin: So the earlier we can retrain our brain in general, our amygdala specifically, the better it gets.
• 10:22
  Robin: And one of the things that amazes me when women talk about you know power and and that socialization.
• 10:29
  Robin: And when we were off off script earlier, mary, you said this phrase, feminine wiles, and I gotta tell you I push back so hard when people say it's a bad thing.
• 10:41
  Robin: I understand that in our society we have created this idea of some temptress who uses her feminine wiles to do someone.
• 10:49
  Robin: But when you really look up the word wiles, wiles can absolutely mean being devious, but it can also mean being cunning and using strategies to manipulate situations to get what they want.
• 11:05
  Robin: And I talk to my clients a lot about the idea that the term manipulation has been really demonized in our society.
• 11:12
  Robin: Yes, we know what manipulation can look like.
• 11:14
  Robin: We know it can be harmful and evil and everything in between.
• 11:18
  Robin: But I also talk about positive manipulation.
• 11:22
  Robin: What do you know about someone else so that you can positively manipulate the situation to achieve the goal you want?
• 11:30
  Robin: And in those situations, it's not about being evil or being hurtful, it's about using your feminine wiles, because one of, in my book, feminine wiles are our strengths, our strategies that we are good at.
• 11:47
  Robin: And women are really good at connecting with people we are really good at.
• 11:51
  Robin: We have a higher EQ than you know, in a generalized way, than men.
• 11:56
  Robin: So why wouldn't we use these cunning strategies to then achieve a goal?
• 12:02
  Robin: As long as no one's being hurt, as long as no one is, you know, putting themselves before someone else in a way that's going to damage a relationship or the other person, I say go for it.
• 12:14
  Robin: So feminine wiles to me I try and reclaim that term as no good use your wiles, use your cunning, use what you know and embrace it, because as a woman, we can do things in different ways and sometimes in better ways than men, just as they, they also have different and better ways of doing things than women.
• 12:33
  Mary: I 100% love that you said all that Because.
• 12:37
  Mary: I have said often that women have developed, and I think it partly is our brain.
• 12:43
  Mary: Our brains are just different, and so I don't know how much of that is epigenetic, I don't know how much of it is.
• 12:49
  Mary: You know our socialization, whatever, but we can read a room.
• 12:54
  Mary: We have leadership qualities that have been so underestimated.
• 13:01
  Mary: Exactly, you know and you know better, certainly better than I, in the work you do that most of what we see as held up as good leadership styles are masculine, correct.
• 13:14
  Mary: So I love all of that.
• 13:15
  Mary: I've been in situations as a leader where I feel like having emotion is so helpful, agreed, and so, yeah, I think that we see things in ways, because we've developed to read the room, we've developed that sense of, for better or worse.
• 13:38
  Mary: How are we doing?
• 13:39
  Mary: How are people receiving this?
• 13:41
  Mary: And I think even if someone isn't receiving it well, that doesn't mean that we're the problem.
• 13:48
  Robin: Exactly when we think of it, and I love that you brought up the idea of this ideally changing standard of what leadership looks like.
• 13:57
  Robin: You know, the newer research on leadership is looking at the importance of vulnerability and transparency and that team connection, and those are things that women are really really good at.
• 14:08
  Robin: So you know, again, I will embrace the phrase of feminine wiles.
• 14:14
  Robin: Yes, use your feminine wiles to achieve the goals that you're looking for.
• 14:19
  Robin: Your organization is looking for whatever, but absolutely use what you have.
• 14:24
  Mary: Yeah Well, and I think by pointing this out, you're pointing out something important in that we have made that term feminine wiles be something that's manipulative in a in a bad way, like we're trying to weaponize it, and I think that's what has happened so often and I think that's a two a little bit where the fear comes in.
• 14:50
  Mary: When you have good girlfriends, the way that you share information and sort of emote and lean into each other and support, and I think when you can bring some of that professionally into the workplace, I think there are some people it scares the hell out of them.
• 15:07
  Robin: I agree.
• 15:07
  Robin: But again, it scares them because it's the unknown, it's not the norm and you know, as humans and if we're talking about the amygdala, the amygdala is definitely evolved to keep us away from unknown, novel situations, because there's fear in that and it could be dangerous.
• 15:25
  Robin: So when you have a leader that does not look like what a leader quote unquote should look like, yeah, that's going to be scary.
• 15:32
  Robin: So whether it's women pulling away, whether it's men or non-binary individuals rejecting it because it is something foreign, there's a rational explanation for it.
• 15:46
  Robin: It doesn't justify it, it doesn't give it credence to keep moving forward, but it does explain it.
• 15:51
  Robin: And if people can have those conversations to say, oh, this feels weird to me, but let's try it out, let's go for it, let me get used to it, that's where I think the intersection of understanding and acceptance can really happen.
• 16:07
  Mary: So I'm thinking of something that I would love to get your thoughts on.
• 16:10
  Mary: When we talk about the amygdala, it will also look for things where it can say see, I told you so.
• 16:18
  Mary: I think sometimes when we get rid of our guardrails and that's something I've talked about before get out of your lane, get into the lane you want to be in.
• 16:26
  Mary: Sometimes when we do that, the biggest pushback comes from other women.
• 16:31
  Mary: That's been my experience and I think we are set up sometimes to we're set up sort of as women to be competitive in ways that we don't need to be, and I'm curious about if you see that in your work or what your thoughts are on that.
• 16:51
  Robin: Yeah, that's a great question, Mary, and I struggle with it.
• 16:54
  Robin: I've gotten that question before and I know where it comes from, but I really tend to sink into the idea that that is an outdated stereotype that just keeps proliferating, that women aren't really competitive, and I don't see that very often in my work.
• 17:16
  Robin: I hear the stories but they tend to be and as I've done this work, more and more so I hear them less that women and maybe because they are starting to embrace their power and embrace their differences from the standard, you know, view of leadership or teamwork or whatever it might be.
• 17:35
  Robin: But I see women being more supportive and whether it's in career, whether it's in personal life I hope that I'm not being naive.
• 17:45
  Robin: My husband says I'm often a Pollyanna and I only want to see the good, and I don't disregard that.
• 17:51
  Robin: I'm like, yeah, I'm okay with that, but I do think when I'm looking at from you know, I'm in the generation Gen X and I'm looking at the millennials and I'm looking at the Gen Z I think each generation is getting better in terms of women supporting each other and accepting whatever each individual woman's choice is, and I really I appreciate that about the younger generations.
• 18:18
  Robin: I love seeing it in my generation and I hope I'm not just being delusional.
• 18:31
  Mary: I don't think you are.
• 18:31
  Mary: I think it is getting better.
• 18:32
  Mary: But I myself have had some of those experiences.
• 18:35
  Mary: But I've also had some of my most supportive friendships come from the workplace workplace and people too that were sort of equal equal to where I was, and so if I advanced or they advanced, there truly was a sense of supporting that, because someone else's success doesn't diminish our success, Exactly.
• 18:58
  Robin: That's exactly it, and you know to me and I get it.
• 19:01
  Robin: You know I don't see it as competitive.
• 19:04
  Robin: Sometimes it's flat out jealousy when I'm like, oh, how did she already get her book published and mine is still in the process of, you know, being published by the end of the summer.
• 19:12
  Robin: And then I remind myself, okay, what can I do to support her?
• 19:17
  Robin: And maybe in the future there's something she can do to support me.
• 19:20
  Robin: So it doesn't have to be just because of the quid pro quo, but it's more.
• 19:32
  Robin: Eventually there are ways that we will support each other, and that's been my experience.
• 19:33
  Robin: Every time I have that thought and I remind myself it's like, okay, what can I do now to help that person in this moment, even if it's just celebrating their accomplishment, you know, on social media or with an email or whatever it might be, because knowing that eventually, if I needed something, I could probably reach out to that same person, and I love that.
• 19:52
  Robin: It's almost like having you know, your own pit crew, where you know it's like, okay, you might not need them every time you go around, but maybe at some point you're going to stop and you're going to need these people to jump in.
• 20:03
  Robin: And because you've established that relationship with them.
• 20:07
  Robin: They'll do.
• 20:08
  Mary: And that's true, and I also wonder too if we see it differently.
• 20:13
  Mary: So, in other words, if we run up against that jealousy, competitiveness, whatever you want to call it with other women male colleague because there's sort of a different setup, a different playbook I call it a playbook a different playbook that we're handed in how to get ahead.
• 20:42
  Mary: Or you know, I've talked on this show about invisible labor that women do in the workplace.
• 20:46
  Mary: We do a lot of stuff that we don't get paid for, but it's connecting and we don't.
• 20:52
  Mary: So many of us don't think in those terms.
• 20:55
  Mary: We do it because I know I did it because it felt good to connect, but it's not cunning, it's not strategic, it's exhausting.
• 21:04
  Robin: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:05
  Robin: Now I think that when we just genuinely embrace the idea of support versus competition, it gets easier in that regard, when we just are naturally just like okay, what can I do, how can I help, where can I be without and I will qualify this without depleting ourselves, because women are really good at that too Let me do everything for everybody, and then I got nothing left for me, and that's also a challenge.
• 21:34
  Mary: Yeah, because it goes back to those strengths that we have.
• 21:37
  Mary: So I had someone on the show who's actually a friend of mine and she said she's very good at seeing all the potholes that are coming in her organization, and she said I had to get very good at staying in my lane.
• 21:49
  Mary: Those aren't my potholes to fill, right, exactly.
• 21:52
  Mary: Yeah, we anticipate, we can.
• 21:55
  Mary: We tend to be able to see things in ways that maybe someone who is male or has a male brain doesn't really see in the same way, right?
• 22:06
  Mary: So that's yeah, that strength can be our undoing.
• 22:09
  Mary: So I'm thinking that there are women who maybe have been taking a role that is more let me do the pothole filling, let me do the invisible labor but they want to advance or they want to step into power a little more.
• 22:25
  Mary: So what are some ways that they could start to do that?
• 22:30
  Robin: Well, I think the first thing that helps and again, not to say ad nauseum about the amygdala, but the amygdala really does undermine our optimal functioning and our goals.
• 22:41
  Robin: So one strategy, one really concrete strategy that I encourage certainly everyone to do, but definitely women, is to create a resume review.
• 22:51
  Robin: And the resume review has lots of purposes.
• 22:56
  Robin: But essentially when I talk about it I will get clients who say, oh Robin, that's cute, and I'm like, okay, but let me tell you the neuroscience behind this cute strategy.
• 23:05
  Robin: So the strategy itself is creating either a physical or electronic file of accomplishments, of reminders of how amazing you are.
• 23:16
  Robin: So it could be notes from clients or students, it could be articles about you, it could be performance reviews, it could be diplomas, whatever indicates just how remarkable you are.
• 23:31
  Robin: I've had clients who create shoe boxes.
• 23:32
  Robin: I've had clients who create shoeboxes, I've had clients who create binders and then, of course, electronic files.
• 23:36
  Robin: So that's the first step you create, you start to put in artifacts and if it's an electronic file, you can take pictures or whatever works best.
• 23:45
  Robin: So that's step one and that's actually the step that most of my clients have an easy time doing right away.
• 23:51
  Robin: They're quick to it, they're usually very excited to do it.
• 23:54
  Robin: Step two is the harder step, and step two is that you review the resume review Some of my clients call it their me file at least once a month and in harder months, once a week.
• 24:08
  Robin: You sit down and you don't skim through it, you read and you look at and you pay attention to every word, every item that's in it and ideally, you also add to it, because if you don't continuously add new things, your brain's going to get bored, and that's when we stop doing things, when our brain is bored.
• 24:27
  Robin: And then, finally, you make sure that when you're reviewing everything, you are not distracted, and that is also something my clients have a hard time.
• 24:39
  Robin: That's step three, not being not doing it, you know, really quick, before they go to work or but actually making the time, scheduling it on your calendar so that that information, the data that's in your me file, gets into your brain.
• 24:53
  Robin: That information, the data that's in your me file, gets into your brain Because here's why this isn't just a cute strategy or a, you know, personal affirmation approach.
• 25:00
  Robin: The reason you want that data in your brain and why it's important to review it regularly and add new information is because in those moments when your amygdala is creating the anxiety, self-doubt, insecurity, imposter syndrome, all that stuff.
• 25:14
  Robin: You want that information to be easily accessible to your prefrontal cortex, which is your rational, strategic part of your brain.
• 25:22
  Robin: You want your prefrontal cortex to say no, you know?
• 25:25
  Robin: No, of course we deserve to be here.
• 25:27
  Robin: Yes, we definitely get to ask for that raise because remember all the amazing things we've already done, so why wouldn't we?
• 25:35
  Robin: But if we don't give that evidence to the prefrontal cortex, if we don't make it easy for our rational part of our brain to access it, our amygdala is going to take over.
• 25:45
  Robin: So when we feel that nervousness to go talk to a boss or a supervisor, when we feel that anxiety because we're about to step out of our lane, we want a rational part of our brain to have quick and easy access to information that demonstrates hell yeah, this is our power and we not only deserve it, we want it.
• 26:08
  Mary: Yeah, that's a great way to make something very obvious, rational, because we also tend to focus on things that are negative.
• 26:18
  Mary: So in our mind maybe there was a meeting where we said something and it wasn't received well and that takes up 80% of our brain and all the great stuff has been a dusty little corner.
• 26:30
  Mary: So two things occurred to me as you were talking.
• 26:33
  Mary: The one is and I do not know percentages, but when men look at a job description they will say, okay, I have like what 60% of these skills I'm going to apply.
• 26:47
  Mary: And a woman is like, oh my gosh, I only have like 90% of these I can't apply Right.
• 26:54
  Robin: I have a great story, mary.
• 26:56
  Robin: It only happened a couple months ago.
• 26:57
  Robin: So my sister has two kids.
• 26:59
  Robin: She has a 23-year-old daughter and a 21-year-old son and I love my niece and nephew.
• 27:05
  Robin: But they were having a random conversation over lunch a couple months back and my sister and my niece start talking about how they'd always love to fly a plane and they're like, oh yeah, but it's expensive and you know I'd have to take lessons.
• 27:18
  Robin: And my nephew says, oh, I could probably fly a plane.
• 27:21
  Robin: And my sister looked at him and she said, you mean after lessons?
• 27:24
  Robin: He's like, no, I think I could figure it out with with no arrogance, just complete confidence.
• 27:30
  Robin: And she said wouldn't that be amazing to be born into a world where you're just like, yeah, I can do that.
• 27:35
  Robin: And it was such a clear demonstration to me of, oh my gosh.
• 27:39
  Robin: That is how it often again as a generalization often goes, where men are just super confident, maybe overly confident, and in the case of my nephew that's obvious that they can just do something, and women are like, oh, I need it all laid out, I need 100 percent ready, and then I'll do it.
• 27:57
  Robin: And often we miss our shot.
• 27:58
  Robin: Then.
• 27:59
  Mary: Yeah, I never really thought about it, but I totally was that person.
• 28:03
  Mary: If I would look at a job description, I'd be like, oh I don't know, there's this one thing and I don't really have a lot.
• 28:08
  Mary: It never occurred to me that somebody else would look at that and be like oh yeah, I got most of this, I'm going to go for it.
• 28:17
  Robin: Yeah, so in my family now the catchphrase is go fly the plane, go fly the plane, just go fly the plane, just try it, which of course I wouldn't advocate.
• 28:24
  Robin: I would take the lessons, but the analogy is there of no, just go for it.
• 28:29
  Mary: Mm-hmm.
• 28:29
  Mary: Yeah, that's a great story.
• 28:31
  Mary: The other thing that occurred to me as you were talking, and because you use cognitive behavioral stuff, I really think that women's irrational beliefs underneath all of this have a very different flavor than men's.
• 28:45
  Mary: Do you agree with that?
• 28:47
  Mary: Can you explain that a little bit more, mary Sure?
• 28:50
  Mary: So I'm thinking of I don't know if you've heard of Dr Claire Zahmet, but she talks about a coaching model that is specifically for women, that in coaching we tend to give very concrete steps.
• 29:04
  Mary: That's sort of the hallmark of coaching.
• 29:06
  Mary: It's not as much let's really dive into things like therapy, but it's more goal directed action steps.
• 29:14
  Mary: And she comes from a place of saying, well, that is not as effective with women because sort of what we're talking about, that they'll see these steps and be like, oh, but I don't really know if I have enough skill to do that or so, and so from my past life said that I'm not very good at this thing.
• 29:36
  Mary: So sometimes that lands differently for women, because underneath our thoughts are these beliefs of I don't have the stuff it takes to be successful.
• 29:49
  Robin: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 29:49
  Robin: I've never really thought about that.
• 29:51
  Robin: What I've seen with my coaching client, my female coaching clients, is when the steps are overwhelming or seem just completely out of their realm, is we break them down almost into minutia like super small, very manageable, smart goals, basically, where you know we're not, we're not going to try for the bigger thing, we're not going to try for the the, even the objective, we are just going to do this one action, step.
• 30:22
  Robin: And that tends to break down any of the worries or the self doubt, because it's just one thing, one thing.
• 30:30
  Robin: I mean it's kind of like when I had a client recently and she's been talking to me for a while about wanting to be physically healthy and she's been on this path of well, my husband works out two hours a day.
• 30:42
  Robin: I should work out two hours a day.
• 30:44
  Robin: I'm like why?
• 30:44
  Robin: Why is that the standard, first of all, and you might not even need that and you may need something different.
• 30:51
  Robin: So I finally said to her a couple of months ago.
• 30:53
  Robin: I said, how about we just aim for, you know, five to 10 minutes a day?
• 30:56
  Robin: She's like Robin, that's ridiculous, that's not going to achieve my goal, I said, but neither is not doing anything.
• 31:01
  Robin: So maybe we just start super small, and that's okay, and that's still a hundred percent improvement, a hundred percent progress, and you slowly build on that.
• 31:11
  Robin: And with women also, I think maybe a little more important, I don't know, maybe I could see that where we do explore, what are the thoughts, what are the concrete thoughts that bubble up when you feel this emotion, when you feel the emotions that are getting in the way?
• 31:29
  Robin: What's the thought behind it?
• 31:31
  Robin: Because often, you know, we don't when I say we as humans, we don't stop to think about, okay, what's the thought creating the emotion?
• 31:38
  Robin: Because emotions just don't happen, they don't come out of nowhere and they certainly are something we can control.
• 31:44
  Robin: But it all, all of that happens only if we can identify what's the thought that created it.
• 31:49
  Robin: And once women can identify, as you said, you know, oh, this person made this comment about me years ago it's like, oh, okay, now is that still valid?
• 31:58
  Robin: Is that still rational?
• 31:59
  Robin: Was it ever valid?
• 32:00
  Robin: And we can really dissect it.
• 32:03
  Mary: Yeah, Well, and I keep going back to your nephew so this idea of maybe men see the plane in the air and women see all the steps it takes to get the plane in the air, yep, because we're practically thinking, well, I can't just like climb in there and it's going to take off.
• 32:23
  Mary: And again going back to evaluating ourselves when we want to apply for a job, we're looking at every little step on that.
• 32:31
  Robin: Typically, Instead of the step that's right in front of us, yeah, and then, knowing that we will, we'll deal with it as we go, we'll figure it out as we go.
• 32:40
  Robin: I agree, I don't think most women are good with that fluidity of I don't know, let's see what happens.
• 32:48
  Robin: We like our plans Again, and we are speaking in generalizations, of course, but I think women are very good at creating that organization and that planful approach and while that's wonderful and can work in many situations, it's not going to work in every situation.
• 33:06
  Mary: Yeah, and I think there's a little bit too of just how do I want to say it, sort of not just self-belief, but I think if you look at something and it's like, oh, I could be a project manager, like I could do that, and then we look at all the objectives that are under that, and then we start to doubt.
• 33:25
  Mary: But I think if we can go with that idea of like heck yeah, I could be a pilot, or heck yeah, so that may be where we get hung up a little bit and yeah.
• 33:35
  Robin: Yeah, I had another.
• 33:36
  Robin: I had a client that I worked with many, many years ago and when I started working with her she was 75 and had done all the things raised her family, gave up her career to raise her family, went back to a career and at 75, she was meeting with me because she had been pushed out of her company and she said you know, when we were setting up, what do you really want?
• 33:59
  Robin: What have you always wanted?
• 34:00
  Robin: She's like I always wanted to get my doctorate.
• 34:02
  Robin: And I said okay, so what's your plan?
• 34:05
  Robin: She's like oh no, I'm too old, I'll probably die before before I get it done.
• 34:09
  Robin: And I'm like but what if you don't die?
• 34:10
  Robin: And I must've said that I don't even know hundreds of times.
• 34:14
  Robin: What if you don't die?
• 34:15
  Robin: What if?
• 34:15
  Robin: Cause?
• 34:16
  Robin: That was always her.
• 34:16
  Robin: Well, you know I won't have the time and I won't have this and I won't be able to enjoy it.
• 34:20
  Robin: I'm like but what if you could enjoy it?
• 34:22
  Robin: What if you do live, get it and be able to enjoy it?
• 34:25
  Robin: And after a while, her brain, her prefrontal cortex, started hearing it and she said I don't know what if?
• 34:32
  Robin: So about a year after we started working together, she enrolled in a doctoral program and she did it for four years.
• 34:39
  Robin: She achieved her goal and last I knew she, I think, is probably now 85, 86, somewhere around there, but she did it.
• 34:49
  Robin: But she had to get past that, the what ifs, the blocks that were getting in her way, and said let's just remove the blocks and say let's see, let's see what happens.
• 34:58
  Mary: Yeah, wow, that's so cool.
• 35:01
  Robin: Yeah, it's so cool.
• 35:02
  Mary: Yeah, at that age, to, yeah, to seek you out and say I still have this.
• 35:07
  Robin: One other thing yeah, that's one other thing.
• 35:09
  Robin: And she, yeah, she was amazing.
• 35:11
  Mary: That's great.
• 35:11
  Mary: So I'm going to take an exit off our little highway that we've been driving on and I mentioned this in my intro.
• 35:18
  Mary: But I think sometimes and I've known women like this that they will wear a different sort of hat or they have this different persona in their career, in the workplace, when it comes to power, and a very different way of being when they are in, I'll say, a male-female intimate relationship.
• 35:39
  Mary: That's what I've perceived, and I know you do.
• 35:43
  Mary: Couples work and I love this idea of a business model, so could you talk a little bit about do you see this dynamic and how do you address that?
• 35:54
  Robin: I do see this dynamic, and I do see it in men too, but more predominantly in women, or more visibly in women that you know they're one way at work, in terms of powerhouse, you know, amazingly confident sometimes, at least outwardly, sometimes in their heads or not, but they just are able to dominate in such a positive way.
• 36:15
  Robin: And then they come home and they take on either the standard role or they forget all the things that they just did at work and they don't translate them into their relationship.
• 36:26
  Robin: So, after years of working with you know some really incredible I've had such the fortune and honor working with such incredible women and listening to them talk about work, and then inevitably they will also talk about their personal relationships, which is a big difference between my male and female coaching clients, because men very rarely bring up their personal life when they're there for executive coaching, which I find fascinating, but women do, and they would talk about problems with their significant other or they would talk about problems within their families.
• 36:57
  Robin: And my question started to be well, tell me how you do it at work.
• 37:01
  Robin: Well, what do you mean, robin?
• 37:02
  Robin: Well, how do you manage conflict at work?
• 37:04
  Robin: How do you talk to other managing partners at work, you know, and how do you?
• 37:07
  Robin: Oh, that's different, ron, that's not the same thing.
• 37:10
  Robin: I don't.
• 37:10
  Robin: I can't do that at home.
• 37:11
  Robin: And my question was always why?
• 37:12
  Robin: Why can't you do exactly the same or use the skills, the abilities, the feminine wiles you do at work and apply them into your personal relationship?
• 37:24
  Robin: And most women would stop and say I don't have an answer for that or I don't know, or sometimes I get.
• 37:29
  Robin: Well, love is different and love is not different.
• 37:32
  Robin: Love is a relationship and if you're coming at it from the perspective of relationship management, then it doesn't matter if you're in the professional setting or personal setting.
• 37:40
  Robin: So I then created a framework around making turning your marriage or your significant relationship into a business, and not that we're throwing love and sexual attraction out the window, but those are the bells and whistles and those are the things that are going to be enhanced.
• 37:58
  Robin: If we have that foundation that is more strategic, more planful and for a lot of couples it works very well and it's very different than therapy, which is what many of the people who end up working with me are looking.
• 38:13
  Robin: They're looking for something other than therapy, because therapy doesn't work for every couple, usually for couples who don't want to dive into the past and don't have a need to dive into the past, or don't really want to get caught up in a lot of emotional conversations.
• 38:28
  Robin: They want something that is more objective, and my framework does seem to work in that way.
• 38:34
  Mary: Yeah, I know our society has a lot of trouble with anything that might de-romanticize a marriage.
• 38:42
  Robin: Yeah, and I got to tell you I use it in my relationship.
• 38:45
  Robin: I've worked with couples who use it and the opposite is, what happens is when you have that strong foundation, the romance and the feelings of love and the feelings of sexual attraction they really increase, because you've taken out the miscommunication and the overstepping or the just struggles that get in the way, because I don't know about you, mary, but when my husband and I are struggling over something I don't feel as attached to him, I certainly don't want to have any kind of physical contact with him.
• 39:17
  Robin: So if you can remove that or loosen it, then all that other stuff just gets more fun.
• 39:24
  Mary: Yeah, Well, there's definitely a role for cognition in marriage and I can say that, as being older and having got remarried recently, it's a different approach and there is a very healthy part of it that is transactional I mean, it's you know.
• 39:42
  Mary: So I love that idea and I think you actually do.
• 39:46
  Mary: You have a book that's coming out, or is the Marriage Inc book?
• 39:49
  Mary: Is that already out?
• 39:51
  Robin: No Marriage Incorporated will be out by the end of the summer, and it's.
• 39:54
  Robin: You know, I've written other books in different genres, but this is the culmination of this 15 years of creating this framework that I have I am really proud of, and I'm proud of it because it it just talks about such a important part of our lives, our personal relationships, in a very different way but with very concrete strategies.
• 40:14
  Robin: It's not just a book that talks to this theoretical idea, it's here are some activities you can do, here are some worksheets, so it's very hands-on, which I don't know In the self-help books I like.
• 40:26
  Robin: I want something that's very tangible to take away and to practice the strategies that are discussed in the book.
• 40:33
  Robin: So that's how I really structured my book.
• 40:39
  Mary: Well, I try to do that in each episode.
• 40:40
  Mary: I mean I like people to leave with something that they can, you know, an action step, exactly.
• 40:47
  Mary: But I saw that.
• 40:48
  Mary: So it's Marriage Incorporated, the Boardroom Blueprint for a Lasting Love, correct, which you get that love in there in the title.
• 40:56
  Mary: So that's good, right.
• 40:57
  Mary: I have 3000 books in my house.
• 41:00
  Mary: I love books so much, so I've already put a little asterisk beside this.
• 41:03
  Mary: So you said it's coming out.
• 41:05
  Mary: Did you say end of summer?
• 41:06
  Robin: Yeah, it's actually available for pre order right now it's it's just in the final stages of tweaking and editing as, as people who have written books know, the fun part, but yeah it'll be out by the end of the summer and you have a really cool buffet of books.
• 41:25
  Mary: I mean, you have a child children's book.
• 41:27
  Robin: Right, I do.
• 41:27
  Robin: I am definitely one of those people that when I just enjoy and want to do something, I do tend to follow up.
• 41:35
  Robin: So my children's book was based on a real life story about my husband and one of our dogs, but it's all about this little boy who has a thinking spot, somewhere where he can go to process his emotions.
• 41:47
  Robin: So it's again.
• 41:48
  Robin: The cognitive, behavioral stuff is there.
• 41:49
  Robin: It's just from a child's viewpoint.
• 41:51
  Robin: And then and I worked with a really talented young illustrator she was still in high school when I started working with her, so that was just fun.
• 42:03
  Robin: And then the other book that I love is called Voices from the Village, which was actually a project I created regarding my daughters because I realized when they were probably middle school age, eventually they may not want to hear everything from their mom.
• 42:12
  Robin: So I sent out a survey to friends and family just saying, with one question, what is the one piece of advice you would give to a girl on the verge of adulthood?
• 42:20
  Robin: And the cool part was that people got so excited about it they ended up sending it to other people and it traveled the world.
• 42:27
  Robin: So I got responses from strangers and then just compiled it into a book, essentially for my daughters, but certainly it's.
• 42:34
  Robin: It's also on Amazon, so it's, it's been fun.
• 42:37
  Robin: This, this new Marriage Inc.
• 42:39
  Robin: It has a different gravitas for me because it's so much my life's work.
• 42:46
  Robin: And, yeah, if anybody's interested, that is available on my website for preorder and then it'll be out.
• 42:54
  Mary: That's great and I will definitely have your website linked in my show notes and I love your Voices from the village idea because I worked with college.
• 43:03
  Mary: Well, I worked in high school.
• 43:05
  Mary: I started as a high school counselor and then I transitioned to college and I just love working with young adults.
• 43:12
  Mary: Like it's really where I think, my, my heart is, and so I love that idea of giving messages to girls as they are on the verge of adulthood.
• 43:22
  Mary: That's very cool yeah.
• 43:24
  Robin: I think one of my favorite parts about writing that book was so my daughters as all of us are, my daughters are very different and one has it on her shelf and I know she reads it, but there's no evidence.
• 43:37
  Robin: My younger daughter's hilarious because she is very much like her mother and her copy is flagged and dog-eared and has post-its and has writing in it and I'm like, yep, that's awesome.
• 43:49
  Robin: So I love that they were to me.
• 43:52
  Robin: They represent what I hope a lot of girls or women have gotten from the book where it's just it's either a reference when you need it, or women have gotten from the book where it's just it's either a reference when you need it or it's it's a battered book that is carried with you but um, yeah, it's deaf.
• 44:05
  Mary: That was definitely a project of love yeah, what a cool thing for them to have that physical thing that you created.
• 44:12
  Mary: That's so cool they're pretty cool.
• 44:14
  Robin: They were, they were, um, they were also super supportive about my ted talk and, for those of you who know it or are going to go look at it, it's incredibly personal, incredibly vulnerable and to have my daughter say, no, mom, put us in Like we're happy to be part of it.
• 44:30
  Robin: And they were in the audience when I delivered it, when it was first a TEDx talk, and they're proud that I speak on such personal, intimate topics, even with and I got their permission before I put them into my TED talk and they were like, yes, why wouldn't you?
• 44:48
  Robin: And I'm like that, I'm, I'm proud that they are those type of women.
• 44:52
  Mary: Well, and you can do the teaser, because I know what you're, I know what you did.
• 44:55
  Mary: Do the teaser, robin, do it.
• 44:59
  Robin: The title of it is why I Got my Teenage Daughter a Vibrator, and it is the way I usually tell people is.
• 45:09
  Robin: It's about female empowerment.
• 45:11
  Robin: It's about women truly owning their bodies and their lives, and it's certainly more than just sexual devices.
• 45:20
  Mary: Yeah, well, and Emily Nagoski, who I've talked about on this show, writes wonderful books about women.
• 45:27
  Mary: Just like use a mirror to get to know what your body looks like, because we don't know.
• 45:32
  Mary: And so this we don't need to go on this whole tangent because we can have another episode that starts right now we don't need to go on this whole tangent because we could have another episode that starts right now.
• 45:42
  Mary: But that's the whole thing, that for so long we have abdicated the control of our own body, and gosh, that's another place where we need to hold our power Correct.
• 45:55
  Mary: So to get back to topic at hand and you also have really cool workshops I know there's the you talk about mental health in the workplace, you talk about women's equity, so you have that information on your website too, if somebody wants to look for a presentation or coaching or that kind of thing.
• 46:13
  Robin: Correct.
• 46:13
  Robin: Yeah, it's I.
• 46:15
  Robin: I've had the benefit of being able to get into some organizations that you know worldwide just through webinars.
• 46:22
  Robin: So I do things virtually, I do things in person.
• 46:25
  Robin: It's just fun.
• 46:26
  Robin: It's a lot of variety that gets out the same messages but in different ways that work the best for people or organizations.
• 46:35
  Mary: Yeah, and I've looked at some snippets of it.
• 46:38
  Mary: I think you've built such wonderful options to help people, so it's very cool, and I know that we took a few directions that we didn't anticipate, so I love that you were along for this ride.
• 46:49
  Mary: It was a fun conversation.
• 46:52
  Robin: Thanks, Mary.
• 46:52
  Mary: I enjoyed it too, and thank you to all of you for listening.
• 46:56
  Mary: One of the best things about this podcast is the listeners and the community that we're creating.
• 47:01
  Mary: If you have someone in your life that you think would benefit from the information that we shared today, please forward the episode to them and, if you love listening, consider joining the Growing Garden of Violets and support the show using the heart button or the link at the bottom of the show notes, depending where you're streaming from.
• 47:19
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.
• 47:26
  Mary: Thank you.