Latest / Question Everything / I Was 11 When Instagram Took Over My Life

Transcript

I Was 11 When Instagram Took Over My Life · Question Everything

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Something wild happened two weeks ago that I really wasn't
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: sure I'd ever see, which is that Meta and Google
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: were found liable for creating social media apps that they
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: knew were harmful to kids. A jury in LA found
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: that the companies designed Instagram and YouTube to hook people
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: in a way that was leading to major mental health problems.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Evidence came out in trial showing YouTube was designed using
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the same behavioral playbook as slot machines. unpredictable rewards that
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: keep you coming back. And internal messages came out between
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: meta employees comparing Instagram to a drug and themselves to
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: drug pushers. The verdict is a sea change. It opens
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: the door for people to hold technology companies responsible for
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the way kids, and adults possibly, get information on the internet.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: We don't know yet what it will unleash, for better
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: or worse. As you know, this is something I've been
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: thinking about and working through a lot on this show.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Last week, I talked to one of the lawyers at
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: the center of the case in L.A., This week, I
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: speak to a young person whose case is one of
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: the thousands coming up next. And just to let you know,
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: we will be discussing self-harm and attempted suicide.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I remember in fifth grade was when people started getting
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Instagrams and stuff. And I was like, that's dumb. I
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: was like, that's ridiculous. I'm going to go ride my bike.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: This is Taylor Little. Taylor's 23 now, but they were
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: 11 when they got their first social media account. There's
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: a lot of debate from lawyers and experts over what
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: the implications are now that the tech companies might be
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: on the hook for what someone like Taylor went through.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: But I think to really understand this whole situation, you
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: got to hear from people like Taylor directly.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Sixth grade, it was a big shift where everyone was
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: on social media. And I started, I think, caring a
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: bit more about social stuff. And there was that sort
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: of social incentive that Everyone was on it, and I
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: made a Snapchat and an Instagram, and I think maybe
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: a Tumblr, too, all at once.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Back then, Taylor identified as a girl, but now goes
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: by they and them. Taylor was under Instagram's age limit,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: so they lied about their age when they signed up.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: I used my brother's birthday. I remember doing that. You
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: just have to put in a birthday. There's no barrier
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: beyond that, and I knew my brother was more than 13,
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: so that worked well.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Did it give you pause at all? Were you like,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not supposed to be on this?
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: No.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Remember, this was 2013. Social media in general was still
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: quite new. And Instagram had only been around since 2010.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I know it's tricky to get back into this headspace,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: but parents were still figuring out what Instagram was. I
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: found this article on the tech site CNET from 2012
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: by a mom who was trying to inform other parents
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: that Instagram, quote, may as well be a social network
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: and not just a photo sharing app. When my daughter
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: asked permission to download the app, she wrote, I was
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: frankly excited that she was showing interest in photography. I
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: love using the app and was unaware of the age restriction.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: And so I think my mom was like, cool, looks safe.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: It's fine.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Taylor followed their friends. They were into dance and theater,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: so they followed some dance accounts, too. And then one day,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Taylor says Instagram sent them a notification.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Just on my home screen said, like, check out this account.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Taylor says they hadn't followed this account. And that the
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: suggestion from Instagram didn't give them details about what the
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: account was. That the app just pinged them to check
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: it out.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: And so I followed that and was taken to somebody's
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: personal account where they documented their self-harm. It was just
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: full of images they had taken after they cut themselves
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: with fresh wounds and videos and things.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: How graphic were these images?
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Very graphic. They were They were fresh. They were somebody
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: had cut themselves 30 seconds before. They are open wounds.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: They are bleeding. They are is gore. It was gore.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Taylor was 11 years old. Taylor was about to experience
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: years of severe life altering mental health issues, which they
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: are now suing metaphor. And while Taylor doesn't believe social
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: media was the only factor. They do point to this moment,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: this invitation from Instagram to visit someone's graphic photo diary
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: of self-harm, and then the type of accounts and posts
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: that Instagram fed them over the next five years as
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: a huge part of what caused their suffering.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: I couldn't even really process what was put in front
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: of me. I don't, I didn't understand. I'd never seen
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Instagram used this way. Like, this was an app for
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: sharing pictures of your friends and posting memes, you know,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: so it was Very jarring, very shocking.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: The young woman who just won in L.A., her name
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: is Kaylee. She did testify in court, but her trial
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: wasn't recorded. It wasn't broadcast. So the wider public has
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: not gotten to hear her story from her in her
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: own words. That's why I wanted to talk to Taylor.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: So you can listen to their story and suss out
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: for yourself how much are social media companies to blame.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: It was shown to me without my consent. My feed
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: was flooded without my consent. I was targeted by Instagram.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: From KCRW and Placement Theory, this is Question Everything. I'm
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Brian Reed. While there are difficult parts of Taylor's story,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to say that Taylor's healthy and safe now.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: And talking to them was one of the most illuminating
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: interviews I've done in a long time. So I hope
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: you stick around. Before sixth grade, before they got drawn
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: into the dark recesses of social media... Taylor says they
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: were a happy, gregarious kid.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Dude, I would not shut up. I was very, yeah,
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: very chatterbox.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Taylor grew up in Butte, Montana, with two brothers, one older,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: one younger, and lots of cousins who Taylor considers siblings,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: along with aunts, uncles, and grandparents nearby. Their parents were separated,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: and Taylor's mom was putting herself through school for speech
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: pathology while waiting tables. In elementary school, things were good.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: I got my first lead role... Fifth grade year, I
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: got cast as Alice in Alice in Wonderland. And that was,
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: oh my God, the height of my life. I loved
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: that production. I shined in it. I was so proud
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: of myself. I dyed my hair blonde for it. It
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: was the first time I was allowed to dye my
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: hair because it was for a production. I really, it's
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: hard to express, but I loved myself and I loved
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: my life. And I was confident and I was happy
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: and I was kind and I was just, I loved,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: I was in love with the world. I really was.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: I couldn't have loved my life more. That was, I think,
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: the last, like, that was the last really good, good
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: time span I remember was during Alice. It was a
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: very sudden switch.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: And Taylor says it really started with that suggestion from Instagram.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: that led them to a stranger's gore-filled cutting account.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what cutting was at that time. I
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: have a very clear memory of Googling it pretty much
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: immediately and going, what the hell is this? I scrolled
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: through that account. I looked at it. I've described it
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: before as when you pass a car crash and you
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: want to look, you can't look away. It's this morbid fascination,
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: just like, what is this? And let me understand. And...
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Immediately that day, next day, I started receiving the posts
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: in my Explore page.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Instagram's Explore page recommends posts from accounts you don't follow.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: So again, Taylor says these were not accounts they were
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: seeking out. They were accounts and posts Instagram was delivering
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: to them. And Taylor says it was a lot of cutting.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I did keep clicking on them. You click on one
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: post and you can just keep clicking. Like, they were
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: really endless. Like, There was there was an extensive self-harm
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: community on Instagram. It was you couldn't reach the end
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: of it. And so, yeah, when I'm seeing those posts
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: all the time, I didn't even I didn't have to
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: look for them. They just showed up. It was all
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: I was seeing.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: And you can't remember any like do you have any
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: understanding or explanation for why Instagram proactively sent you a
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: notification to look at a self-harm account?
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: No, dude, I I was following my friends. Prior to
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: that point, I used social media completely normally.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: We wrote Meta to ask about what Taylor says happened
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: to them on Instagram. Specifically, I wanted to know if
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: this kind of notification and if getting recommendations on the
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Explore page were features on Instagram back in 2013. Meta
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: didn't respond. But we asked experts, and they said what
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Taylor describes experiencing was possible at the time. though it
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: might have technically been a suggestion or a recommendation and
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: not a push notification that first came to them. The
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: hyper-personalized algorithm that we know today, that came a few
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: years into Taylor's time on the platform. But the Explore
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: page did exist when they first signed up and did
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: suggest content. Taylor says that's where they fell down the
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: rabbit hole of posts about cutting.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I looked up how people did it. Where do you
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: get your blades? I was looking at actual methods and tips.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I found that on people's accounts.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: They would explain where to get the blades.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I tried it that night. Oh, really?
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: I remember it being, if not that night, it was
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: within a week, two weeks. But I remember it being immediate.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: The instantaneousness of this. See cutting content, start cutting. I
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: found it shocking. It's hard to square sudden cutting in
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: sixth grade with the carefree childhood that Taylor described just
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: a year before, playing Alice in Wonderland and loving life.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: I'm about Mark Zuckerberg's age, so I was the last
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: generation to experience college both before and after Facebook. Over
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: the years, as I've heard stories about teens' experiences with
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: social media, I didn't dismiss them. But I think if
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I'm being honest, I didn't totally understand how a social
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: media app could lead you to hurt yourself. To me,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: to start cutting, I assumed you'd have to be in
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: a state of some desperation. But Taylor says that wasn't
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: how it was.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: I don't think I was in a desperate mind state
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: at that time. I was still mostly happy, mostly stable.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: There wasn't any huge issues there. I wasn't what I
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: would describe as depressed. I've been depressed. I know what
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: depression is like. I spent many years after this in
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: deep depressive states. That's not where I was at. I
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: was definitely like beginning to struggle with some things in
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: sixth grade, I think on a very minor level and
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: a level that could have been addressed. Some anxiety, some stress,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: some body image issues. I mean, I had just gone
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: through puberty. Like, I think it was a pretty normal
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: adjustment period for the age I was at. But it was, yeah,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: it was some sadness, some worry, but nothing, nothing overwhelming,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: nothing super dark.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Taylor says they were dealing with some grief around this time.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Taylor's grandmother had died when they were in fifth grade.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: She raised Taylor for a lot of years. They were
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: very close. Taylor says they did not process that well.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: They doubt anyone in their family did. Their dad was
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: also inconsistent at this point in their life. He suffered
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: from addiction. Taylor says they definitely were struggling with that.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Taylor did try to get support from counselors and other
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: adults in their life, but they weren't able to provide
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: what Taylor needed. Taylor was looking for help to deal
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: with these emotions. And then they discovered cutting tutorials.
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Saw people saying, I feel bad and this makes me
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: feel better. It gives me a release. It gives me
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: an outlet. It's cathartic. And that made sense to me.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Instead of going to the next person down the line
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: who might have been able to offer me the help
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I needed and the tools I needed, I was given
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: this other thing that they said, I feel bad and
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: this helps. I really, I got hooked on the physical
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: feeling of it more than anything. And I, I mean,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: from the moment I started, I was an everyday self-harmer.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I'd never, it wasn't something I did once and then
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: like tried again a couple of weeks later. Like I,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I did it every day all the time.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: In addition to the self-harm accounts, Taylor says soon Instagram
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: was bombarding them with other types of posts, which they
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: grouped into a couple buckets.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: There was sort of the suicidality section, and that is
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: different than you'd think. It's a lot of, like, glamorization
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: of suicides. There'd be, like, edits of scenes of suicide
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: in movies set to pretty music, and, like, people jumping
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: off buildings, and, like, this sort of very romantic take
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: on suicide that was rampant. Art about nooses and guns.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, every once in a while there'd be graphic videos,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: but I can think of two specific ones in my
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: head that were actual, like, filmed, like, snuff videos, basically,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: of people committing suicide. But mainly it was very pretty.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: It was depicted as very, um, desirable. And then there's
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: the eating disorder content. And that was a lot more instructional.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: It was a how-to guide. And diets and workouts. How
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: to hide it. Restricting tips were a big thing. Or
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: like thin spell pictures. So like body pictures of like starved,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: very disordered bodies. And then the captions would be like
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: written out. Like instructional stuff. Fasting guides were big.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: You're still 11 at this point?
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I'm still 11 at this point.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Do you remember what you thought of this? You start
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: seeing stuff depicting or suggesting suicide, glamorizing suicide. Like, did
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: you know about suicide at 11? And what did you
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: make of this?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I knew about suicide. And I remember at the time
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: not being suicidal, but thinking... it looked interesting. I don't,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know a better way to describe it, but
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: it was a morbid fascination and it was, I did
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: see these people finding some relief is I think the
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: other part of it is they depicted it as desirable
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: and beautiful and sort of coquette and cute and, you know,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: this sad girl aesthetic and, What very quickly happened was
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: I was seeing people on Instagram who were so deeply
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: depressed and who were saying, I want to kill myself
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: every single day. We're ranting in these captions about suicidality,
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: about suicidal ideation, about how they're going to do it.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Just graphic and constant descriptions. And.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: It was almost impossible, I think, for my mind not
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: to be led into that same state. If you read
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: something over and over and over again, you absorb it.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Taylor and other kids in their generation were guinea pigs, essentially,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: for what happens when you go through adolescence on social media.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: And researchers are still trying to figure out what the
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: science shows about how social media affects teens. You may
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: be familiar with Jonathan Haidt, probably the most well-known person
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: who talks about this issue. He's a social psychologist at
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: New York University. He wrote that bestseller, The Anxious Generation,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: about Gen Z being, well, unprecedentedly anxious. And he blames
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: that rise in teenage mental health problems squarely on social media,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: on smartphones.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: What we see in the United States, when we graph
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: out the percent of American teens who suffer from anxiety, depression,
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: those who self-harm, those who are hospitalized, what we see
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: is very stable levels from the 1990s through 2010. And
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: then right around 2013, 2012, suddenly a lot of curves
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: begin going up very, very sharply.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: This is right when Taylor was first getting on social
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: media at age 11.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: And we see the same thing in the UK and
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: the same thing in Canada, the same thing in Australia,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: the same thing in New Zealand, the same thing in
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: the Scandinavian countries and Northern Europe. So something happened globally.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Something happened in the early 2010s. that sent teen mental
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: health spiraling downward. The only theory on the table for
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: why you'd have a global change is the massive change
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: in their daily lives when they adopted a phone-based childhood.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Those two shifts, the rise in teen mental health problems
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: and the rise of social media, happened at the exact
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: same time, Haidt says. So what else could have caused
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: the problems? But other experts say that while these trends coincided,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Researchers have not found evidence proving that social media causes
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: mental health issues in teens. So could the relationship maybe
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: be the other way around? In fact, there is evidence
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: that kids already struggling with mental health problems do use
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: social media more than other kids. But it's still not
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: clear from the research what the effect of that is.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: It's not clear from the science if social media makes
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: a bad situation for those teens worse. But Taylor says
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: in their experience, it absolutely did. They told me after
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the cutting posts and the suicide posts, Instagram started showing
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: them content about eating disorders, about being skinny. Is that
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: something that you had struggled with previously or to what
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: extent had you?
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: This is a little trickier. I had just experienced female
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: puberty and I'm non-binary. So I was dealing with intense...
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: physical dysphoria at that time. And I didn't have a
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: word for that yet. And I didn't understand why. But
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I was extremely uncomfortable in my body. I hated my body.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: And so I think I sort of knew that I
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: didn't have the same body image issues that girls my
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: age had. I didn't have the same concerns. It was
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: a different type of discomfort. So I was very eager, honestly,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: to make my body more comfortable to me. And I Yeah,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I latched onto that pretty quickly. I did have, like,
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: friendships on there.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: You're using air quotes.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: They were very destructive, I think, to be called friendships.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: No one ever had anyone's best interest in mind in
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: those relationships.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: What were you talking about?
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: There's a term called anabuddies, which is people that you
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: meet on ED Instagram, eating disorder Instagram. and become friends
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: with so you can hold each other accountable and help
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: each other fast, to restrict together, to help talk you
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: out of eating, like basically disorder buddies.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: You would do that with people? Be like, I didn't
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: eat anything today. How about you?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: How about you?
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Taylor was hiding all of this from the people in
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: their real life, their parents, their family. They were hiding
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: the cutting, their eating habits. The one thing it was
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: hard to hide was their social media use, which exploded. quickly.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: At one point, I'd worked it out and averaged like
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: eight to 10 hours because I would, I mean, I'd
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: wake up on Instagram. I'd be on Instagram all day
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: at school. I'd come home. I'd lay in bed. I'd
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: be on Instagram.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Wait, how are you on Instagram all day at school?
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: In between classes under your... That's hilarious. You clearly haven't
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: been to an elementary school in a while.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: My kids in elementary school, but they banned phones.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: See, that's great. That was a big part of why
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: I was struggling so much in classes was because I'd be,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, checking stuff under my desk in class. I'd
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: go to the bathroom so I could be on my phone.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: I'd in between. It was it was very consuming. I
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: struggled to stay off my phone in school.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Taylor's mom, other adults in their life, they'd comment on
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: their phone use. But also, they thought Taylor was just
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: obsessed with chatting with their friends. Taylor made burner accounts
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: for viewing the cutting and suicide and eating disorder content.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I know my mom has said she noticed the usage
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: for sure. She noticed how excessive it was and how
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: I was isolating because of my phone. But she had
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: no idea what I was looking at. I mean, I
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: was so secretive with this. And everybody who was on
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: here was. It was very much a culture of, And so,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, my family had no idea what I was
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: looking at. And I was having serious suicidal thoughts within
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: six months of this by my first semester of seventh grade.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: I was genuinely depressed at this point. It was really
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: becoming a clinical state I was in. So things got really,
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: really hard for me. I was less social. I think
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I started smoking cigarettes that summer. I had dyed my
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: hair black. I was pale. I was underweight. I'd been restricting.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: Dying your hair is not innately bad, I just want
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: to say.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: No, no, I know. I spent many, many years with
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: every color of the rainbow. But at that time, it
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: was me trying to achieve an aesthetic ideal that I
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: saw promoted. It's hard to explain how much the aesthetic of...
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: depression and suicide was emphasized it was really really glamorized
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: and so for me the reason that was it was
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: just very out of character for me and very strange
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: for me at the time and it was it was
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: because of the content I was seeing.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: And what is the aesthetic it's sort of like a soft.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Goth grunge type of deal and so I went into
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: seventh grade in a really dark place I was failing classes.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I did not do extracurriculars. I was not a functional human.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: After a quick break, Taylor's secret life gets found out.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Taylor was 12 in seventh grade when someone discovered what
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: they'd been so good at hiding.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: A friend in gym class saw me changing and saw
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: my cuts. Told the school. Told my mom. My therapist
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: was told. We were trying to get this sorted out.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Wait, like that sounds scary. Like you've been hiding this
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: thing that you're doing to yourself that is like involved
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: in this whole online life that's like secret from your
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: family and friends. Someone finds out. Did they have a reaction?
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: You're going to think poorly of my mother. But she,
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: I think her gut instinct was like, What do you
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: have to be sad about? I think that's what she
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: said to me driving me home from school that day
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: because the counselor had called her in. She took me
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: home early.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I don't think poorly of her. I feel for her.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: I know. And I feel that way, too.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: Soon after Taylor's mom found out about the cutting, she
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: also heard Taylor making himself throw up. That's how their
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: mom learned about the eating disorder. And shortly after that,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: their mom found a journal of Taylor's where they'd written
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: about being suicidal.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: So it was it was one thing after the other.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: It was within like three, four months that all of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: this was coming out. And then it just kept piling up.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: It was so quickly from Taylor's great and happy and
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: healthy to my mom being like, Taylor needs help. Where
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: do we go? So I think, yeah, my mom was
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: very frightened and overwhelmed. And again, we lived in Butte, Montana,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: where there's, I think, two therapists in the whole town,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: maybe one. And she was lovely, but It's just there
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: was not a wealth of resources or education or understanding.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Was there discussion like social media is playing a part
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: of this at this point?
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Not at this point. Nobody knew about it.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: I talked to Taylor's mom, Carissa. She told me it
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: never occurred to her that social media could be playing
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: a role in the struggles Taylor began facing.
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: I think I was pretty blind to any sort of fears.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: Carissa wasn't a big social media person herself, but her
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: older son had been on MySpace. Her grandmother was on Facebook.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: The thing she focused on talking to Taylor and her
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: kids about was not meeting up with strangers you might
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: interact with online. But that was it. It just didn't
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: seem dangerous.
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: There was a lot of that attachment to the phone.
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: But again, there was no recognition that that was the cause.
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: Or the source of any of the behaviors and changes
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: we were seeing.
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: Taylor was a typical age to be spending a lot
• 25:16
  Speaker 5: of time in the room after dinner on the phone
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: with their friends.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Taylor always was a big reader, a big journaler. So
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: of course they want their phone.
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: Of course they're tied to their friends. Of course they're
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: spending more time alone in the room.
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: So no, the initial counselors, the initial treatment, the initial everything,
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: nothing talked about the phone or phone use or social media.
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: It was fairly unknown and unrecognized, not just amongst myself,
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: but amongst all of.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: The many professionals we worked with. We were just sitting
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: there scratching our heads.
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: What happened to this kiddo?
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Did you ever take a look at what they were
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: doing on their phone or on social media?
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: Not that I can recall.
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: You don't know that I fully understood the connection between
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: social media and everything Tay went through until Taylor came
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: out as an adult and went, hey, this.
• 26:10
  Speaker 6: Was a huge effect.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: And this is where all of that came from.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: What did you think when they told you this, that
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: there was this whole world going on on Instagram, essentially,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: that was like basically the biggest part of what they
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: were experiencing or a huge part of it? And you
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: just had no idea.
• 26:28
  Speaker 6: I guess for me, I thought it makes a lot
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: of sense. It makes so much more sense than anything
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: else for why this healthy, happy, well-adjusted child just within
• 26:41
  Speaker 6: six months turned to dark, depressed, suicidal, self-harm, starving ourselves.
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: It never made sense why it went south so fast.
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: I can look back and tell you for sure, Taylor
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: had a great support system around them. They had parents,
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: they had cousins, they had aunts, uncles, grandparents. They had
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: a beautiful support system around them. In a world without
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: social media, Taylor would have turned to those people. And
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: in a world with social media, they went and found
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: that support in a much more unhealthy way.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: In March of Taylor's 7th grade year, after their mom
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: learned about the cutting, the eating disorder, the suicidal journal entries,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Taylor's great-grandmother pitched in so the family could get Taylor treatment.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: They put Taylor in a program out of state.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: By the time I went to treatment, I truly was
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: a physical danger to myself.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: After six weeks, insurance cut them off. Taylor went into
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: outpatient therapy, got on medication. Taylor and their mom ended
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: up moving to Colorado to have access to better care options.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: But Taylor says at this point, their treatment was mostly
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: targeting their eating disorder, taking it down to a still
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: persistent but not immediately life-threatening level. Taylor says the treatment
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: wasn't addressing the underlying issues. One night at the beginning
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: of eighth grade, when they were 13 years old, Taylor
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: attempted suicide.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: My mom, she woke up with a terrible feeling, and
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: she said, I need to check on Taylor.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Taylor's mom found them face down in the middle of
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: the floor with bottles of pills under the bed. She
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: called the paramedics. Taylor was rushed to the Children's Hospital
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: in Denver, intubated, and put in a medically induced coma
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: for several days.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Basically just waiting for me to pull through. And I
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: did wake up, thank God. I tried to talk. My
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: mom said, don't talk, don't talk. We need to take
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: the tube out. I was, the intubation was removed. And
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: the first thing I said was, where's my phone? I
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: need to check Instagram. I woke up feeling very disappointed
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and defeated. So I did like an acute hospital stay
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: after that, but I wasn't, I wasn't grateful to be alive.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: And then it happened again?
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: It was two years later. My ideation was so constant.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I was put on 72-hour holds a lot. I think
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: I had like 15 acute hospitalizations in like two years.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: If I wasn't hospitalized, I was going to outpatient therapy.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I was always having my meds managed.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: What do you think would have happened if somebody had said,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: let's cut off Taylor's social media accounts take away their phone.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Taylor says this with such certainty because they have a
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: data point. Until their second suicide attempt, the longest their
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: insurance would ever cover for residential treatment was six weeks.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: And during those six weeks, Taylor wouldn't have access to
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: their phone or to social media.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Once you get even basically stabilized, before you can do
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: any of the deep work, insurance goes, great, you're stable,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: go home. And so I would hit six weeks, I
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: would get sent home, and I'd get right back on
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: social media, and I'd backslide pretty much immediately.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: But after the second suicide attempt, Taylor was able to
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: qualify for a Colorado state fund for high-risk kids, where
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: nearly 100% of mental health care treatment was covered. This
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: finally allowed them to go to treatment for a longer
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: period of time. They went to an inpatient residential program
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: in Denver for more than a year. And the whole time,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: no social media.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: And I stabilized. I did therapy. I evened out and
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I came home and I've been good since then. I've
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: been good since then. I'm not perfect. I have, you know,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I have relapses. I have my struggles. I still go
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: to therapy, but I am medicated. I am stable. I
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: don't self-harm anymore. I don't have an eating disorder anymore
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: and I'm not suicidal anymore.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: And how do you know what to attribute to that,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: to being without your phone and social media for such
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: a long time? and what is pretty intensive mental health intervention, basically,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: and treatment?
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I think they're hard to separate, but I experienced withdrawals
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: at any hospital. The first few weeks, I was not compliant,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and I was a pain, and I could not do
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: the work because I wanted my damn phone, and I
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: wanted it right then. It was like a real behavioral problem.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: So I definitely had the experience of I couldn't effectively
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: do treatment until I got past that point of literally
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: itching for the phone. So, of course, like the treatment
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: is the reason I was able to get better. But
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: the reason that I couldn't achieve that treatment before was
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: because of the phone. It was a barrier. I mean,
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: it was like an active antagonist to everything I was
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: learning and trying to put in place. I truly believe
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: the only reason I was able to get to that
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: point of stability and actually, like, get back to normal
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: brain functioning enough to do the work I needed to
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: do was because I did not have social media.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Even after treating the eating disorder, their depression and suicidal ideation,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: after stopping the cutting, Taylor says they still battled a
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: social media addiction for years more. Meta and other tech companies...
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: point out that social media addiction is not a formal
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: psychological diagnosis, the way alcohol or gambling addictions are. In
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: the LA trial, Meta executives said they prefer the term
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: problematic use. But Meta's own internal documents that came out
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: through the LA case use the term addiction and say
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: things like, quote, Instagram is the worst platform for mental
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: health and teens are hooked despite how it makes them feel.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: And the jury found that Instagram was addictive. Taylor says
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: it took until they were 20 years old to really
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: think of it that way. as an addiction?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: It kind of came to me just all like overnight.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: I kind of had to come to Jesus moment. I
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: was like, I am addicted to Instagram. I can't stop.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Like I can't, I have to stop. Like I'm spending
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: so much time on this app and it doesn't make
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: me feel good. I was in denial for a long
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: time that I even had a problem because it is embarrassing.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: It is, it feels like a moral failure. It feels like,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: how did I let myself get like to this point.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Even in your early 20s, you were still feeling addicted
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: to it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. It was long after I'd separated from the
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: harmful content.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Taylor's suing Instagram now, one of the thousands of people
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: who are, because they believe the company bears responsibility for
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: what happened to them. Taylor's case is separate from the
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: one in L.A. They're repped by a different law firm,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: Motley Rice. But their lawyers are using the same argument.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: They say it's the design features of Instagram, the algorithm,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: the notifications, the the explore page, infinite scrolling that caused
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Taylor's emotional problems or made them worse. And specifically that
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Instagram used these features to addict Taylor to the app.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: If you heard our episode last week, you know this
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: focus on the design is important because if a lawsuit
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: is focused on the content of the posts, the fact
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: that users are showing self-harm or glamorizing suicide, then the
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: suit probably wouldn't be allowed to go forward. There are
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: experts and lawyers who are worried about the success of
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the L.A. case because they argue you can't separate content
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: from design in these social media apps. They say the
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: design is only dangerous because of the content it's serving you.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: And that content, whether you like it or not, is
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: protected speech. What if these cases succeed and companies start
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: closing off parts of their platform or censoring content? Or
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: more governments step in like Australia just did and ban
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: social media for teens entirely. That could end up hurting
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: lots of people who turn to the internet for support
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: and connection, including kids like Taylor, LGBTQ kids, because social
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: media is often where they find community. Here's someone expressing
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: this worry about the social media ban in Australia.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Some people use it as like a lifeline for like
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: escaping reality and like entering digital world.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: Finding a community that, like, accepts you as a person and, like,
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: what you are.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: So I was curious to hear what Taylor made of this.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: I've seen, like, people make that argument online a lot,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: but I was on, like, queer Tumblr, queer Instagram. I
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: think I was, like, a mod on, like, a queer
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Instagram account, which is, like, a big thing at that time.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: I had a lot of, like, healthy online friends that
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: I met at that time that were separate From the
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: other usage. So I, more than most people, can definitely
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: speak to the value of it, especially, you know, growing
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: up in Montana. Like, I am a non-binary lesbian. I
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: needed that community. But for me, I would trade that.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: The harm I experienced just so massively outweighed the good
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: that I got from it.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Do you have friends who... disagree with you on this
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: at all or like other, you know, queer people you
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: know who are like, no, it actually was a lifeline
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: for me.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Honestly, not in real life. There's a reason it's such
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: an ongoing debate. I understand that it's a complicated issue.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: Freedom of speech is very important. I think that censorship
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: is very slippery and tricky, but they make a platform
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: that they know kids are on. At the end of
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: the day, I think they need to either not allow
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: kids on their platform or understand that they have a
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: responsibility to protect kids from the content they host.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: When Taylor said this to me, I could picture their
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: lawyers banging their heads against the wall just a little bit.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: The LA case focused narrowly on Instagram and YouTube's addictive
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: design features. But when you hear Taylor tell their story,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: they can't help but talk about the content, the cutting images,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: the sad girl aesthetic. All that stuff's going to be
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: much harder to hold Meta accountable for in court. Today,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Taylor is completely off social media.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I have a flip phone. I switched, I think, March
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: of last year. So it's been, I guess, like a
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: full year now. You can see I bedazzled it. It's
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: kind of falling apart. I needed re-superglue, but it was
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: just like a plain black model. And then that made
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: me a little sad. So I added glitter and I
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: made a little... a little charm chain and things.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: To stay grounded, Taylor's developed a kind of spiritual practice,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: I guess you'd call it. That includes meditation, prayer, journaling,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: also a cauldron.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: This is my cauldron. This is my main dish I
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: use for actual ritual spell work.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Taylor told me that part of what drew them to
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: cutting when they were younger was the ritual of it.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Now they've replaced that with a healthier one.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: I think there's something about social media and technology that
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: sort of just takes you out of your body. You're
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: in this sort of third space. And I think it's
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: been a real battle for me learning how to come
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: back into myself and be just like fully situated in
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: the present world.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, talking to you, I'm just experiencing so much sadness.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: And yes, for like the specific elements of your story,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: which I'm so sorry about, Taylor, but also just the
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: overarching feeling that your childhood was stolen from you. Yeah,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you got better. It took a year
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: and a half of you going away, like leaving a
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: normal American childhood experience.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's been, I mean, it's been a big point
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: of mourning for me, honestly. I mean, I didn't graduate
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: high school. I did a medical withdrawal from high school
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: because I couldn't show up. I got my GED. I've
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: gotten to have a pretty normal college experience, I think,
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: which I'm really grateful for. But yeah, I don't really
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: feel like I was ever a teenager. And it's hard
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: because you're only a teenager once. You can't remake those experiences.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: And so it is, yeah, it's definitely a point of
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: sadness for me. It's something I've had to mourn and
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: had to come to terms with. But I think I
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, what I come back to is I'm alive.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Taylor points out there are lots of kids who aren't.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Many of the people suing Metta and other social media
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: companies in the mass litigations right now are families who
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: lost their children to suicide. If you or anyone you
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: know has been having suicidal thoughts, please know you can
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: contact the 24-hour National Suicide Lifeline by dialing or texting 988.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: There's someone to talk to there. The website is 988lifeline. org.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: If you want to hear more from my interview with Taylor,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: go sign up for our Substack at questioneverything.substack.com. If you
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: liked this episode, please text it to a friend. Today's
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: show was produced by Sam Egan with help from Sophie Kazis.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: It was edited by Neil Drumming, Kevin Sullivan, along with
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: Zoe Chase. Robin Semien and I are the executive producers
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: of Question Everything. Our team also includes producer Zach St. Louis,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: contributing editor Jen Kinney, and associate producer Kevin Shepard. This
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: episode was fact-checked by Annika Robbins. Matt Tierney did the
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: mixing and sound design. Our music is by Matt McGinley.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Thanks to Sam Fuqua for producing this interview in the
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: field and Hannah Gallagher. Our partners at KCRW include Arnie Seifel,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Tejalaj Amera, Natalie Hill, and Jennifer Farrow. We'll see you
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: next time.