Latest / Mythmakers / Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Fellowship of the Ring Movie Reconsidered

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Mythmakers Encore: Did Peter Jackson Get It Right? The Fellowship of the Ring Movie Reconsidered · Mythmakers

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  Hello everybody and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creators brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and I'm an author
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  and director of the Centre. And today I'm joined by Jacob Renekker. Jacob, why don't you introduce
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  yourself. Hi, thanks Julia. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Jacob Renekker and I work
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  kind of in the intersection of education and storytelling. My kind of educational background is
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  bachelor's degree in ancient near eastern studies master in comparative, master's degree in
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  comparative religion and PhD in religion. So looking at different storytelling strategies of
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  different religious texts, ancient mythology and traditions and even contemporary texts and
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  traditions and creating essentially kind of creating dialogues between different stories,
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  different authors, different ideas including J.R. Tolkien. Yeah and actually today we're going to
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  do a really deep dive into the films, the Peter Jackson films of Lord of the Rings because we're
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  we're now 20 years on or more from when they began filming when they the first film came out
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  and anybody who follows this on the internet will see there's been quite a lot of chatter about
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  the difference between the films and the books and we thought we would devote some quality time
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  to looking at the choices that the script writers, that's Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boynes,
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  the choices they made when they were adapting and think through what that meant for those films
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  and I suppose we're also thinking if future filmmakers are going to come along and have another
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  go which they probably will at some point maybe as a mini series or whatever these days
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  what you might do differently this time round and Jacob as well as those wonderful
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  list of qualifications he gave he also qualifies as being a fan of Tolkien. So it is also two
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  fans talking to each other. So first of all we're going to look of course at the Fellowship of the
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  Ring. I don't know about you Jacob but actually of the three films this is my favorite.
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  Yeah it's tough to say yeah it's tough to say because it's really you know all one continuous
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  story in my mind it's just one long 11 and a half plus hour narrative. I love the beginning
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  so I love Fellowship yeah yeah it's it is it is it is a lot more your pastoral you're kind of eased
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  into the story um whereas if you kind of start with two towers or turn to the king then things
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  are a lot darker and heavier so it is a nice kind of stroll into the world of middle earth so I do
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  appreciate it for that. I think I like it most because it feels as though it got the book best
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  you know it really did live up to what I was hoping for um but anyway it's just a personal choice that's
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  the one that if anyone was saying which is my desert island one that's the one I'd take I'd also
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  better point out that Jacob and I are both people who watch the extended edition so if we refer
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  to scenes you haven't yet watched people that maybe because you're watching the theatrical cuts
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  but anyway so but let's go on so first of all let's look at um before they even actually started
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  filming anything what do you think about some of the changes that were made in Fellowship of the
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  Ring particularly in terms of casting what strikes me most is the decision to make Frodo really young
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  whereas in the novel he's in his fifties right yeah it's yeah that's it's it's interesting choice
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  so I'm maybe kind of backing up a little bit my first exposure to uh Lord of the Rings was the film
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  was the Peter Jack that's interesting so you'll be a different way around to me yeah yes yeah exactly
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  so yeah and from different people that I've spoken with right so I'm and so I'm in in some
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  senses you know not appear it's not pure enough I'm not a I'm not a pure blood
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  I'm sorry I'm not pure thoughts right right right so I'm yeah so like I'm not intellectually
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  pure blood I guess when it comes to Tolkien's world it's somewhat considered but it was it was my
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  entry point so that was essentially I only think of Frodo that was my initial exposure to Frodo was
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  Elijah Wood as you know a I don't know he's kind of in the film seems to be a you know early 20s
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  or so kind of Frodo so it makes sense to me and at the time when I saw it when it came out I was
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  in my very early 20s so I connected with him so it was easy for me to see myself in Frodo because
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  of the similarity in age and I'm sure that was absolutely a marketing and storytelling strategy
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  from the Hollywood end of things for which audiences you're trying to attract how do you make it
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  as successful as possible to as broad of an audience as possible so having a main character whose
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  age is is right in there you're gonna pull in younger audiences as well as the older audiences where
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  most of the cast is you know are more adult right that they're you know 40 30 40 50 year old
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  that's easy but how do you get a younger audience age down some of your characters so yeah I think
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  it's it's a it was a natural and I think a navigable choice um and I'm I'm fine with it because
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  it got me into Lord of the Rings I do appreciate the difference what so yeah so Julia what do you
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  see is the so maybe some of the differences in his character by shifting his age in the film to
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  yeah it does shift everything because if you re if you re run it and say put Martin Freeman in
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  as Frodo instead because Martin Freeman was more age appropriate for the Hobbit it's still a really
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  good casting um but in the books Frodo has a certain authority and maturity um that he doesn't
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  in the films the films are a are a coming of age story I can get make arguments for why it's
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  appropriate um so I always think of Frodo in particular as very much a first world war recruit
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  you know someone too young who's asked to sacrifice his life for everybody else so that element
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  definitely works and there's also the argument that Hobbits at 50 are not as old as us lost at 50
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  because of the they've got a longer life spans I don't think it's a mistake I can see exactly
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  why it was done but it is an area where another go at the film it would give the next generation
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  of filmmakers a different place to go if they wanted and I that would be really interesting um
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  it makes the Hobbits less at less idiotic less idiot that's a bit too strong less um
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  brand like she yeah it makes them a bit more sort of sorted if it's a slightly older
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  group we were going I think yeah so if you see oh go ahead and that's going to say there is a
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  little bit of they do seem completely clueless in a way which I think is beyond the clueless they
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  are little people in a big world but um they play up the humor and the fact that they don't quite
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  make the right calls at some time which isn't quite the same as the book yeah I was just thinking
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  when you were saying you know casting somebody who's more age appropriate uh and how that would
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  provide a different angle for filmmakers and storytellers uh for in in the you know film visually uh
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  and in terms of kind of tropes you could have you know photos journey as midlife crisis right
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  essentially and that's a very different take on why you're going out on this journey and what
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  you're having to prove to yourself right what you're trying to understand about life it's kind of a
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  looking back you know kind of a retrospective where have I been what have I done with my life and
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  what do I actually want to be now that I'm part way along and I'm now on the downhill slope what do I
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  really want to be doing and so seeing the journey of the ring as kind of yeah him taking his life
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  into his own hands instead of sitting complacent in the shire and then kind of being thrust in in one
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  sense but then also choosing to enter into with like the last half of his life into this this you know
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  life changing and world changing adventure so yeah that's a completely different angle from the
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  coming of age you know where it's just kind of this continual you know kind of upward trajectory
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  to then coming up completely fully well rounded realized adult so now what if you start there at
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  the adult starting point rather than the you know somebody fighting the inevitable decline into
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  you know mediocrity complacency so I that that's completely just so I think that's fascinating and
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  I would love I would love to see somebody have that take yeah the danger would be feel a bit too
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  similar to I mean because that's really the hobbit is like that isn't it he's yeah yeah right
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  but I think looking at it from the positive side what that casting choice did do is it you
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  Frodo is beautiful he's got the beautiful in a it's like angelic almost isn't he
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  he's big blue eyes there's a beauty to him which I don't think there's quite a few jokes in the
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  actual book about the fact that he's put on a bit of weight and you know there's you need to get in shape
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  so it has a there is a difference there's just a difference feeling from Frodo the film version
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  from Frodo the the book version but it does mean that there is a different I mean it's always good
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  if there's new pleasures when you go to the book or go to the film I mean I think this gives us
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  two bites the cherry we can have one version of the story which is the film and another which is the
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  the book version okay so um going into the actual um the way the script is written before we talk
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  about the sort of structure of it but the the register and the diction do you think they captured
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  in how they approach the script the right sort of talking-esque language you're a language expert
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  yeah yeah it's a good question again because my first exposure to the to the world of talking
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  in middle earth is the films so as I'm reading it it's hard for me to divorce the voice inside my head
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  from the different actors who were portraying those those voices um but yeah it is it is really
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  interesting right with the difference so I think one of the things that works well is having
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  yeah different yeah diction for different areas of the shire right so
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  oh yeah diction right so so you can see we have these different instead of just you know saying
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  you know uh we're just gonna have randomly chosen different kind of a hodgepodge of different you
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  know uh you know british uh addictions used by the different different characters um that you can
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  that can actually be in your favor if you kind of consider different areas of the shire as you know
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  being uh different kind of linguistic areas where they're they're staying in the same place they're
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  not moving around and so of course they're going to develop a certain uh you know cadence and different
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  different styles of speaking so in that sense I think it does I I didn't when I was first
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  watching the films I didn't see that but now in retrospect I know that could have been a accident
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  of casting that actually could upon reflection prove to be fortuitous uh in saying that the
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  shire isn't a monolithic culture right that are that you know uh that these are people who have
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  geographically interconnected but distinct areas um so maybe I might be giving them too much
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  credit for what they're doing but I'm happy to do so well if you watch the make-of which is one
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  of the pleasures of the extended edition is I think Billy Boyd says it was almost like it is an
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  accident of casting in that sense in that he's Scottish and so the tukes get to be Scottish
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  even the name tukes feels as though it should be it could be you know sounds got right um
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  there was a slight problem about just it's not then it's not very big the shire so
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  you have mildly different accents within a short space I suppose might be a bit funny really
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  right and there's a couple of in the hobbits um obviously you've got Dominic Moynihan
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  uh who's a Brit so he's accents fine um there were a couple of times when just a few tiny moments
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  as a British person when Elijah Wood drops it it is right at the beginning when he says to Gandalf
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  he've only just arrived the accent isn't quite there and that was a shame because it jails yeah
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  and then the um the Sam accent is kind of mummouset shire which is that uh it's fine it is fine
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  yeah it's fine but the funniest of all the accents is of course Boromir because Sean
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  Bean just does Sean Bean and Sean Bean is speaking his natural northern accent but nobody else
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  seems to do so in but the most delightful thing has happened since um Andy Circus read the Lord
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  the Rings the entirety of it is that he has given everybody in gondor a Sean Bean accent
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  it's damn brilliant wow they should have everybody in gondor should have gone that way so um yeah
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  I think on the whole seeing it's a cast from many different English speaking um places and also
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  some of the actors are not first language English speakers I think they did pretty well and the
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  actual rhythm of what they wrote and how it was some of the lines are really beautiful and it's
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  very well I think they've got a good ear uh the script writers okay so in the fellowship of the
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  ring what are your perfect moments um yeah so in terms of like visual imagery right so
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  in film right the the visuals are what are our primary and the sound scape right behind it so
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  you know Howard Shore's score is inseparable from the visuals right they're all kind of
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  working together in concert to provide this kind of overwhelming uh soaring uh perceptive experience
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  so for I one of those I think for me is Aragorn's introduction right the first time you see him
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  yes yes that's mine that image of him just his pipe you know and just like the illumination from the
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  little bowl of the pipe so then illuminating his face in this shadow and uh you have the hood
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  and in the the dark corner and just the sound of the fire right kind of like crackling to life
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  and the light so the illuminating his face is just uh yeah striking uh haunting almost right and
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  especially for somebody who didn't know who wasn't familiar with the story going in it was
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  it provided there was ambiguity there right so I didn't know going in
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  exactly what the character was going to do or what the character was going to be so
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  the term that that was it was it was kind of awe inspiring with
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  perhaps some ominous quality to it and I couldn't you know you didn't know exactly what to take
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  because of course you're you're you're looking at this the camera's looking at it kind of from
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  the hobbit's perspective right they don't know who this character is right so you're kind of seeing
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  it as they see uh this shadowy figure in the corner who's just kind of creepily staring at them um
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  so I thought they captured that well but you know on on rewatching and knowing this character I still
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  think it's incredible uh character introduction for somebody who's coming from the darkness
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  and then in a sense is going to be illuminated right who's going to step into the full light uh in
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  this like dazzling brilliance um so yeah it's great how about yeah yeah that is that's my that's
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  my moment of all the films and it's actually based on a line in the book about the embers catching his
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  eyes in the when he lights his pipe so Tolkien provided the the camera angle on that one so as you
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  pick that one I think but for me the bow rock sequence is one of those where the acting the visuals
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  the tension the drama the music everything is like a perfect set where both the book and the film
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  are meshed and it just feels really really good yeah yeah that's it's straight it's striking yeah
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  it's it's striking do you have any um before we talk about the bigger structure things are there any
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  moments for you which are fails um no I have I have a I have a I have a few more perfect moments
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  okay you'll allow me yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so again with with with Eric Warren I think
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  did you so much and I can't like Vigo Mortensen is just you know impeccable I can't imagine anyone else
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  there uh he's good at council and wasn't it and then yeah exactly it was just a change
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  right which I yes I which could have been divine intervention I don't know um but he so you just
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  how the and one of the things that I think yeah then we could talk about you know because some maybe
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  some of the changes in characters a little bit further down um in our conversation but you know
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  when when he's when airgorn is uh singing part of the lay of luthian right about barren and luthian
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  just kind of you know kind of like humming singing that softly as he's taking uh the hobbits right
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  they're stopping and proto asks him you know what are you what are you singing um and you know he's
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  he's explaining the story and then you know proto asks him you know what happens to this you know
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  this this elf maiden who gives herself you know to this human man and uh he just says you know she
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  she died and just like that moment kind of capturing the melancholy of airgorn as a character and
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  kind of caught between different worlds himself um I think that sets the tone really well and builds his
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  his character uh in in a very um uh not just visual but like auditory way and you just kind of
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  get a sense of feel for it so anyway that's that was something next we're seeing just to put that
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  in brackets I think that's uh wasn't in the theatrical cart I don't think oh okay yeah yeah yeah
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  I think you're right I mean I I've there's a long time since I saw the original one yeah yeah
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  yeah it's been so long for me to um okay so is there anything where you think it doesn't quite work
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  huh hmm yeah we'll get hate mail probably for this but I know I know let's be critics yeah yeah
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  yeah you're having to have the script point of view as opposed to that sort of a primarily
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  yeah yeah yeah yeah so um something that's difficult is the wizard's duel um between uh Gandalf
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  and Saruman um so one of the things so the things that does does well and doesn't do right so
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  that's kind of that's not something that you're really seeing depicted in the books is the like the
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  full on you know a wizard's duels is different right from you could have gone well you you know
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  it's coming out at the same time that uh Harry Potter films right so they're
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  in generally the same time so different approaches to magic right depicting magic I think they're
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  too interesting kind of foils right so um Harry Potter the world of Harry Potter magic is a tool
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  that people use right to accomplish certain ends and so a wizard's duel is going to be this kind of
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  gun fight battle with magic being used uh as as as a weapon and the kind of the precise
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  weapon or maybe even just throwing everything you know throw it all against the wall and see what
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  sticks as it hope that you'll find some one of the spells that you've memorized by that point has
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  can can do some sort of damage um but with Tolkien his magic here is kind of baked into the world
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  in the sense that magic to me it seems that magic is more of a tone than it is a tool for
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  to for Tolkien so it kind of pervades the world itself um and so I don't know it there isn't kind
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  of a clear description of how magic works in Tolkien's world it's just kind of the supernatural force
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  almost kind of like more star wars ask in this something that's kind of pervasive and there's
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  some way to tap into it but that's not Tolkien isn't concerned about explaining the magic he's
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  just taking that as a given that the magic magic exists magic is uh and that's you know embodied in
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  the elves and just like their demeanor so like the elves are magic kind of just walking a bad
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  embodiment of Tolkien's view of magic and so this wizard's duel kind of coming back to that that
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  you know it's seen as it's not a shoot them up uh gunfight um like you do have in Harry Potter with
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  wands as essentially your projectile weapons but there's something that the you know there's
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  there's a force that they're dealing with they're kind of almost fighting with ideas and ideals
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  which I find really fascinating um but how do you depict that visually especially with two actors
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  who are not you know I don't think either of them would have described themselves as action heroes
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  or action actors um so you're you're left kind of and so I think they instead of showing you
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  projectiles CGI braze beams of light shooting at each other you have kind of you know they're
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  they're they're using force that you're kind of left to the imagination to like what exactly is
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  happening there so and so I think conceptually that that works I like that approach but visually
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  it is difficult when you have older actors uh and they're trying to depict some sort of fierce
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  kind of physical competition uh it's hard it's hard to capture that so there's some moments
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  that are difficult to to take seriously especially in light of contemporary filmmaking uh and
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  action sequences so that's when it's a it's it's a mixed it's a mixed bag for me that sometimes
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  it's easy to to take me out of the film experience I can see I can see why it was done
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  because it's trying to what is it's action uh speed things up you know but it's also a sense of
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  I think in the book it's it's really much um the doors are closed and you've got to stay here tough
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  there isn't uh he's constrained but not in the way that it happens in sort of a physical battle it's
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  more the spider speak you know the web closes that's more than the feel yeah I hadn't thought about
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  that really um you're right it is quite odd to have magic used in more of a replacement for a punchup
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  um there are a couple of times in the book where of course Gandalf does use magic in a
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  more showy showy way you know like lighting lighting a flame but he always he always says it costs
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  and he doesn't want to do it he's very reluctant so there's a bit of a step outside yeah oh it's
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  interesting I have to think about that I'm not sure I hadn't really he hadn't bothered me before but
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  now I'm gonna think about it um for me the one of the uh scenes that doesn't work it's in the extended
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  edition um and it did get cut from the main thing is as the approach moria um Gandalf takes
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  Frodo aside and basically says look out um Boram is gonna try and take the ring and it's one of the
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  scenes where there's bit too much bit too much exposition and I think that's probably why it was cut
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  from the theatrical edition um we know we get it um and so it's also just feels a bit odd bit jarring
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  that that scene um so I pleat I think that was one of the ones that perhaps didn't need to go back
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  in the extended edition and there's another scene which jars um for me which is the one when um
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  they're on weather top and arrogant says I'm gonna go off and look for black riders basically
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  and Frodo drops off to sleep and the other three hobbit start cooking
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  um uh and Frodo wakes up and says what are you doing yeah that is not in the book they're a bit more
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  they know that they're being pursued they know that they're in danger in fact I think um Frodo and
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  Maria is or is it if he been anyway Frodo and they're with arrogant searching and then see
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  the black riders moving about and fear they've been spotted it's much more they're much more
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  sensible much more aware that it's a life and death situation and that's one of the changes to make
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  the the hobbits a bit more um I was saying they they sometimes come across as being a little bit idiotic
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  that is one of our moments um and you can see that maybe that's in order to show the distance they
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  go because they're they're the guys frying up sausages in the face of danger and when they become
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  the heroes and the the you know right rows of the battle it's a journey thing but me I just think
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  really I think I'm not listening I have problems with that scene okay so on the whole not that many
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  problems with many scenes so that's too bad the only there's some visually there's some I mean
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  with CGI they're working as difficult with casting different actors who size-wise are in relation
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  to each other different so I think they they did a great job with what they had to do right so
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  you know John Reese Davies is a dwarf who is not my my my exposure and you know first love for him
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  was in the Indiana Jones film it's right so it's on him yeah he is right he's and so
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  listen to him I think right having to depict these people who are normally tall and you know
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  than the hobbits right when they're in scenes with you know humans uh and wizards and elves and
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  and sometimes you know just because of the constraints of computer generated imagery it's super
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  you know imposing different people into different scenes sometimes it does seem a little a
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  little off you can you can tell that there is one actually there together yeah after the council
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  of Elrond there's one moment where it's that yeah that bit I think probably the CGI was just a touch
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  behind there there's a feel of like two people sort of two two layers of people anyway I mean it's
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  tiny minor but that's really anything aren't we here if that's the worst point then yeah oh yeah
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  I mean these are our favorite films we should explain we should say that okay so let's talk about
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  the sort of the larger script decisions now um and there's the issue of pacing and cuts so
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  let's start with where it starts for those of you I'm sure you all know if you read the books it
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  starts with a long prologue concerning hobbits um by Tolkien which you don't actually have to read
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  you can skip to the first chapter and then it goes into a quite a slow build up to the party
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  and in the film you of course get the montage of the history of the ring with um
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  Galadriel Kate Blanchett with the voiceover explaining quite a long setup actually in terms of film
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  time so what do you think of that particular script decision to not start in the show in fact but you
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  start the prologue with the history of the ring good choice bad choice um I think from a film
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  maybe a filmmaking perspective and keeping in mind the audience that it was a good I think it
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  was a good decision to appeal to as large of an audience as as possible right so you're setting the
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  table you're kind of building the frame that the story is going to sit inside um you know of course
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  that's so there's different audiences uh are interested in different parts of the story and so like
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  in the books one of the within rearrangement of of scenes and things right so pulling that section
• 30:09
  from the council of Elrond so that's when the hobbits first learn of this so uh we're in so in
• 30:16
  the books we're more in the from the perspective of the hobbits as they're so we're learning things
• 30:21
  as the hobbits are learning them as they go along right so we're just as much in the dark as they are
• 30:26
  and these things are a revelation so we know why they're making the decisions that they're making
• 30:31
  they make sense whereas if you put it against that larger backdrop from the outset then
• 30:37
  you're not going on the same journey that they are you're kind of in the third person kind of omniscient
• 30:44
  narrator setting you have the information before the characters have it so you're not going to
• 30:50
  empathize as deeply with the characters um because you're judging them based on the bigger picture
• 30:57
  and why they're doing something why they're not doing something and you can judge them in a
• 31:01
  different way than you could if you were actually learning the information at the same time so
• 31:05
  I understand from from a filmmaking perspective it makes complete sense I think it's a good
• 31:09
  I think it's a good decision to get the audience up to speed um because it's a different type of film
• 31:15
  than like a discovery film so um for instance you know just a recent one uh that is kind of like
• 31:21
  discovering as you go uh uh you know Christopher Nolan uh films uh Tenet I don't know if you saw
• 31:28
  uh Tenet okay so his a lot of his are kind of like puzzle box stories right so you're never given
• 31:34
  an explanation that that that from the outset part of the joy um of those movies is kind of working
• 31:41
  through the labyrinth that he's creating and discovering what is actually happening and then
• 31:47
  it kind of becomes self-referential and you're having to then go back and rewatch the films
• 31:51
  having this you know revelation of information and seeing it again so that's that's one type of
• 31:55
  you know cinematic um audience experiences learning about these ideas as you go learning facts
• 32:04
  learning about characters other people as the main character is or setting everything up or a lot
• 32:10
  of it you know giving a big you know a large amount of background at the beginning so I think
• 32:14
  I think with the type of film that the sort of audience that they needed to appeal to
• 32:18
  putting that sort of prologue a historical prologue uh works well there
• 32:22
  I agree I think yeah I think it became a very popular tool that's been copied in other films since
• 32:33
  so it may be that um in a way we've almost become too used to it but actually I think
• 32:40
  what it did do is it it it kept the audience so it promises this is actually big battles this is
• 32:47
  actually big bad is this is great beauty um whereas some people I know have been defeated by the book
• 32:55
  because it does take a while it feels quite childish because it was started life as a
• 33:00
  bit more in the theme of the hobby it took Tolkien a while to make his mind up that he was actually
• 33:05
  making an adult book and so there is an elements of the more child like world which if you don't
• 33:15
  hang in there you could mistake for being the tone of the film so I think it was a very good choice
• 33:21
  and we don't we're not expecting the book and the film to be the same product so it's one of the
• 33:26
  ones where yeah good decision I think okay what about um the the cuts that were made in order to
• 33:36
  I think they were made really for pacing and and just so that you don't you know you got to get
• 33:42
  in uh in an out of a theater within a reasonable length of time so the major cuts are of course
• 33:49
  um Tom Bombardille and the Barrow Downs which is like a connected set of uh incidents it happens
• 33:58
  in the old forest between leaving the Shire and arriving at Bri and the Prancing Pony um
• 34:07
  there's also what else is cut there's um quite a there's quite a lot in the Shire that's cut
• 34:16
  things like the visit to a farmer maggot is cut um there's quite a lot of the journey is
• 34:23
  only just touched on um I bet they did quite well with the journey actually but there's a whole
• 34:29
  series of events before they get to Moria um which they they don't do in full they they just sort of
• 34:39
  they cut they they touch on the crebine and they climb up the mountain but that sequence is more
• 34:44
  extended um but I think probably in terms of people listening to this the big ones are missing out on
• 34:51
  the uh yeah missing out on Tom Bombardille what's your view on that yeah so I yeah again having
• 34:59
  seen the films first I had no idea that Tom Bombardille was I think so when I first read the book I was
• 35:06
  very surprised on who who was who was this character who just keeps his rhyming uh kind of bouncing
• 35:14
  along uh and the yeah so I mean I think it's I think it works well works fine for creating a story for
• 35:24
  a film that if there were things that you needed to cut I suppose that's something that you could do
• 35:28
  without if the main thrust of the story is following Frodo and his journey and the you know kind of
• 35:35
  the the the fellowship itself um then Tom Bombardille doesn't really play a a huge role in their
• 35:43
  individual transformation so if you're we're more concerned about the character transformation and
• 35:47
  character arcs um sure it yeah it absolutely plays a part in that development but
• 35:53
  cinematically yeah that the your I think I think it was a wise a wise choice to kind of condense
• 36:01
  things there so yeah I was I was less sad to see Tom Bombardille go than the Barrow Down bits
• 36:07
  yeah and you can't the thing is you can't do one without the other but the thing that's
• 36:12
  particularly good about the Barrow Downs is it's where they get their swords from they don't you know
• 36:16
  our goal isn't just by chance carrying a load of swords around and also it links to the past
• 36:24
  so there's an element of the the world building this is and you know in the day where somebody does
• 36:30
  a mini series Lord of the Rings you know in the future this is I'd really be interested to see
• 36:35
  what someone does with this on a larger canvas where they don't have to worry about packing it all
• 36:40
  into three hours or two hours um because I think it particularly the Barrow Downs could be really
• 36:47
  spooky the mist and the confusion uh that would be great I'd love to see that yeah yeah yeah absolutely
• 36:55
  and I think yeah because of Peter and what I would love to see Peter Jackson take on that because
• 36:59
  he started you know his career in film was beginning with kind of horror film so I bet he would
• 37:08
  uniquely qualify it to kind of catch that because some of the some of the scenes that he does the
• 37:13
  scary scenes are very scary uh they're they're they are terror scenes right it's horror yeah so I'd
• 37:22
  love to see that too but I think I agree with you that it's you know it's it's the thing that has to
• 37:28
  go um and it and he's discussed briefly at the council of Elrond and they basically say if you give
• 37:37
  him the ring he'll forget about it he's not a safe pair of hands he has no power over him but he
• 37:42
  has no power over the ring so he is completely separate um from it's from its fate and it is about
• 37:49
  the ring this this story so yeah I think that's a good choice um another thing that's missing is
• 37:57
  the songs and the poems so they do get some of them in but not as many as Tolkien has are you
• 38:04
  happy with that um yeah I mean the the the poems are delightful and moving uh in in the in the books
• 38:17
  and so you know because like you said you know that there's a different experiences the film
• 38:22
  experiences different so in terms of you know some of the extended poetry that you have there
• 38:29
  that is really melancholy that captures the you know kind of pervasive sadness uh that exists in
• 38:36
  this world uh of middle earth that's going to be hard to keep you know the attention if you're
• 38:41
  wanting to attract a broad audience uh you know your younger audience is not going to want to sit
• 38:47
  through uh you know recitation of uh you know Eldish poetry they're going to that's
• 38:55
  they're yeah and then it's not going to come at first it gets wheeled out right right so younger
• 39:00
  audiences yeah the the the cow jumping over the moon uh the extended oh great uh I love I love
• 39:09
  I love I love that just what what Tolkien does with you know with the with the traditional kind of
• 39:13
  you know you know English uh rhyme and just kind of spinning it out and doing some really fun things
• 39:20
  with it yeah so that would be a different film I mean if if you're looking at again if you're
• 39:24
  recasting Frodo as in his fifties then I think you could include if your target audiences kind of
• 39:32
  shifted them you're the demographic is shifted to uh firm adult uh audience then including some
• 39:38
  of those those those poems uh I think would would be a delight to include and I think you know
• 39:45
  compelling for an older audience yeah yeah because the reason he puts on the ring in the book
• 39:50
  and um we're granting ponies because he's very awkwardly singing a song then he gets a bit carried
• 39:57
  away and and so it's actually funny but terrible it's it's got one of those um is a particular tone
• 40:04
  that Tolkien has uh which I would be lovely to see that I because in I can obviously they're
• 40:11
  these choices are made because they got to make cuts somewhere but the way that the reason he
• 40:17
  puts on the ring is sort of Pippin's fault um in in in the novel it's Pippin starts to say something
• 40:25
  Frodo decides he's got to add a distraction gets up on the table and starts singing which is like
• 40:30
  the worst thing he could do I don't use it hilarious anyway um so there is yeah uh just pointing out
• 40:37
  some areas which are future scriptwriters can have a go at um so coming towards so much we could
• 40:45
  discuss but coming towards the end of what we're going to talk about on Fellowship of the Ring I think
• 40:50
  one of the biggest things there were two things really I wanted to talk about one is the swapping of
• 40:56
  characters um and the other is how how places are imagined and personified so on the swapping
• 41:06
  of the characters there's a big change which is in the book um after Frodo is injured the elf
• 41:13
  who comes to help is in fact an uh a man called oh I don't know a man an elf called Glorfin
• 41:21
  though who's a very uh sort of from the old lineage who's a friend of arrogant and in the film
• 41:28
  memorably you get our win coming so Jacob how about that what can think of that change
• 41:37
  I think it's yeah and again from the so that wasn't something initially seeing it first that
• 41:43
  I noticed until I read the book and I saw that it was a different there's a different person so
• 41:46
  from the the story that the filmmakers wanted to tell her what they wanted to emphasize
• 41:51
  it makes it makes complete sense to me because you wanted to have Arwen as a larger part in the story
• 42:01
  of the film than she was uh in the book and so Glorfin does not show up later in the books right so it's
• 42:10
  kind of we're further later in two towers and uh and return to the king um so if you have a character
• 42:17
  so one of the tip for screenwriting is if you can combine two characters do because you're able to
• 42:26
  have that one character do more um and carry more narrative weight um rather than splitting it up
• 42:33
  and having just kind of proliferating uh characters because in filmmaking it's an art of uh
• 42:41
  kind of simplification right minimalism maybe not simplification but minimalism right you're trying
• 42:45
  to get the the the greatest impact out of the fewest amount of lines out of character choices out of
• 42:52
  scenes you're trying to get as much as possible into each scene um so it so it makes sense from um
• 42:58
  from a filmmaking perspective uh to combine those characters and let Arwen kind of save the day
• 43:04
  there because that's our introduction to her is as this you know active uh character um so I think
• 43:13
  you're able to maybe have patience later uh with her as she's kind of mostly in the rest of
• 43:21
  the other two films is mostly just kind of sitting around and pining and is sad for most of the
• 43:27
  rest of the film yeah at least gives her a well a better rounded character we know that she can
• 43:33
  write a horse really fast and she can be heroic she's just choosing to sit around and read
• 43:38
  elf poetry and pine over arrogant and and kind of wrestle with that so I so I I like that for what
• 43:46
  it does for her as a character and streamlining the story what do you think I think it's an improvement
• 43:52
  so I think one of the problem that Lord the Rings is the passiveness of well with the honourable
• 43:57
  exception of Arwen who will get to a non um yeah there's not much roles and you are as a modern
• 44:06
  filmmaker going going to be saying where can we leave her open up the chinks and this is a really
• 44:12
  good one yeah I they did actually think and making her active all the way through but they rode
• 44:17
  back from that um in just I think they even filmed her being um Helm Steep Helm Steep yeah and
• 44:24
  are yeah armor I think there are photos of her uh in armor and then I think due to in part due to
• 44:31
  fan kind of uh pushback on that would be real back a bit so it would definitely be for those
• 44:39
  people who are about to write the next version of this I think it's definitely the the kind of thing
• 44:44
  to do more of without without breaking the spirit of the of the book I noticed all the new
• 44:51
  Amazon series they've also made um Galadriel the young Galadriel into very much a warrior even
• 44:57
  that teams a trailer she's you know very badass um right right but I think that 20 years on
• 45:06
  they wouldn't have been forced to row back from putting her in a more active role so yeah so the
• 45:12
  final thing I wanted to ask you about Jacob is the the places because I think that in many ways those
• 45:18
  films are defined by what each place feels like so you go from the shower which is green and rural
• 45:27
  like countryside where I live um to um the muddy road then to uh the kind of
• 45:37
  alpine feel of it's a sort of italian eight stroke or alpine feel of Rivendell
• 45:48
  then you've got the mountains you've got more over the dark mines then you've got
• 45:54
  uh loslorian with its silvery sort of tones and blues then you've got the great river
• 46:01
  and my favorite of all the arganath the statues of the arganathian what did you feel about that
• 46:08
  version of how they realize the book well um uh I was amazed that it was all shot in the same
• 46:20
  physical place right so in New Zealand has all of those different uh different climbs right those
• 46:26
  different uh different types of settings um so I'm eager to make a pilgrimage there at some
• 46:33
  at some point um so it's yeah I thought yeah again visually they did an incredible job
• 46:40
  differentiating the different areas again with not just the terrain but also yeah the kind of color
• 46:46
  palette for each of those right so um yeah uh you know loslorian uh looks different visually
• 46:55
  than a Rivendell that's right that's right that's what I don't like I don't like lorian I think
• 47:00
  it's too dark it's too yeah too twilight yeah in the book described as silver and gold
• 47:07
  right right I would have loved that you know the Eleanor flowers I think they need to turn the lights
• 47:13
  on exactly yeah and I can see why they did that right so they're compressing they're you know
• 47:18
  compressing time right so you you know you you you think as an audience member essentially you're
• 47:25
  you think that maybe this took a few days maybe maybe a week but it was a pretty fast week um
• 47:32
  whereas yeah in the book these things are spanning over every when when when they stay in uh
• 47:38
  right in uh forced lorian uh and lothlorian they're you know the moon is different from you know
• 47:45
  when they from when they go into uh the forest then when they come out of it there's some
• 47:52
  immeasurable amount of time has passed in there um so I think you know as a film they're trying to
• 47:58
  say that they're only basically staying they're sleeping over at having a sleep over uh in lothlorian
• 48:04
  and then they're uh moving on so it is dark I would have loved to have seen because in the books
• 48:09
  that's one of the things that Tolkien does best um is in his nature writing right his description
• 48:15
  of the natural world is in my most recent reread which I just finished of a month ago or so
• 48:22
  just that was one of the things that stood out to me um this time uh was just his his his prose
• 48:28
  specifically about nature and so how he describes that forest and you're right like the silver
• 48:34
  and golds and the you know just the leaves and I can't y'all I can't even paraphrase it because
• 48:40
  it's sacrilege to do so by how how beautiful the phrases um that he uses it how clearly perceptive
• 48:48
  Tolkien as a person was to the surrounding world and nature uh in general so he in a sense is able
• 48:56
  to kind of reenchant the ordinary world um through his description of these you know
• 49:03
  elvish forests uh that definitely had uh you know an impact on me and my perception as I was
• 49:10
  listening uh to this to his words as I'm out in nature you know on on a on a walk with with my
• 49:18
  little uh almost two-year-old child I'm looking at the world differently right and I'm seeing it
• 49:24
  as magic and so yeah I think you definitely lost that in the film setting it at night you can't see
• 49:33
  the beauty there's kind of an evening kind of twilight beauty of sorts but yeah that was
• 49:37
  symbolic isn't it I mean I can see why they chose to do that but it was just the place where
• 49:43
  sometimes they picked a landscape which was better than my imagination but my imagination of
• 49:49
  Lorraine is better than what they did he felt too much like being in a studio there wasn't enough
• 49:53
  fresh air um yeah so it's again we're thinking about possibilities for future
• 50:00
  adaptations that's one place where I think you could really have a go at doing a different take
• 50:06
  uh and then surprise the soul and then chant the soul yeah I can't differentiate that from
• 50:11
  Rivendell because they're different right they're different kind of elvish cultures in a sense so
• 50:17
  I thought the Rivendell the set design was that was good phenomenal that's really good
• 50:24
  but doing that same sort of treatment in right our other forest and our other kind of elvish
• 50:31
  miniature kingdom but yeah kind of develop that and give it the same sort of care uh that you did
• 50:38
  to Rivendell I would like to see that there's probably people shouting at us you know when they're
• 50:42
  listening today that's my favorite scene anyways just personal case these these are these are beautiful
• 50:47
  it's beautiful if I want a nighttime forest yeah great love it I would go there I would stay the night
• 50:52
  there I would stay more nights there than one yeah on the cushions under the tree right yeah not
• 50:58
  not tree that looks a bit worried about rolling off the edge so um Jacob we've done a quite a deep dive
• 51:06
  into fellowship with the ring and I always finish the podcast by asking my guest where in all the
• 51:12
  world is the best place for something and as we've talked about John Restavis and the dwarves and
• 51:18
  where do you think in all the all the fancy worlds is the best place to be a dwarf um we're talking
• 51:26
  here obviously of the folkloric um dwarf characters like Gimli and you know his brother in elsewhere
• 51:33
  yeah I would say I would have to say Narnia um in part because there's such a variety of
• 51:42
  characters and creatures there that are active that I I feel like dwarves don't seem as much as
• 51:51
  outsiders as they do say in Lord of the Rings right so we went in a world that only has
• 51:58
  were kind of men and elves that are kind of in the same stature are kind of given the focus
• 52:05
  that you know hobbits and dwarves are kind of seen as lesser right they're kind of played up for
• 52:10
  comedic relief um whereas in Narnia you know if you have talking animals right a person who's a
• 52:17
  different shape and size than a you know homo erectus like isn't that that's that doesn't that
• 52:25
  doesn't seem out of place uh it just seems like another character alongside this this beautiful
• 52:31
  variety of creatures and characters with different personalities and rich cultures so I think if
• 52:38
  if I was a dwarf um I think I would uh enjoy the world more and probably feel feel more at home
• 52:45
  and be happier in Narnia than even say in the dollar possible yeah I I actually totally agree I
• 52:53
  I've been struggling to think for somewhere better I know I think of lots of faces I wouldn't like
• 52:59
  to be one there's actually many more of those I don't want to work down a mine singing hi ho hi ho
• 53:05
  that's really off that's really off the agenda um and as you say very often wolves aren't given
• 53:13
  the respect justice it's a size difference get over it right and I think Narnia does get over it
• 53:18
  so I agree with you on that thank you so much Jacob we'll be back to talk about the two towers next
• 53:24
  but thank you very much for listening thanks for listening to MythMakers podcast brought to you by
• 53:35
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• 53:42
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• 53:50
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