Latest / She Speaks to Scale / 30. The Story Trust Gap: How To Stop Editing Yourself Before You Speak, with Hilary Salzman
Transcript
- Sarah Collins: Hello and welcome to She Speaks the Scale with me, Sarah Collins. the podcast that empowers women in business to own their voice, be heard and create impact, one communication insight at a time. a former senior television producer for ITV and ITN. It's my mission to bring the communication skills we need to thrive in today's world of business to the generation of women who simply weren't taught them. Whether it's scaling your authority and stepping into thought leadership, scaling your impact on camera on stage and beyond, or scaling your revenue through speaking opportunities, this podcast will help you use your voice to be heard so you're trusted and remembered when it matters most. Hillary Salesman is a business storytelling consultant who spent decades learning how to sound professional, then built a business helping women and learn it. She's the author of the Raw of Her Story, shortlisted for a Business Book Award in 2025, And founder of the She Rawls Club, an accountability community for women founders. She spent 20 years in corporate marketing at major tech brands and her own agency before launching her storytelling consultancy. Hillary doesn't teach women to be louder or more polished. She shows them how to use their real experiences, even the messy bits, to build genuine connections, build a successful business, and take up the space they truly deserve. Let's dive into the conversation. Hi Hilary, wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Now I start every guest episode by asking when was the moment you realised your voice truly mattered? Hilary: hello Sarah. Thanks for having me on. It's a great question to get started with. And it's it's really made me think, because it's it's hard to pinpoint these things, isn't it? I think really it was when I started to get feedback from the women I work with. So, as but you know, as you introduce me, I'm a storyteller, I work predominantly with women, and realising the value in my own voice, my own story. when somebody else said, my God, that was really helpful that you shared that. And and I think one of the moments that really sticks out of doing that was actually not sharing anything to do with storytelling, not sharing anything to do with with kind of like businessy type stuff, which I normally do, but I was talking about my struggles with my mental health. Sarah Collins: Mm. Hilary: and I I had panic attacks and I still still do get panic attacks. I've had them since I was a late teenager. And yeah, somebody wrote by and said, my god, it's really nice to hear someone talking so honestly about this. And I think it's then that that you realise actually, the things that we have to share really matter. But interestingly, in that moment, my mum also got in touch with me and said, Why on earth are you sharing that stuff? And was like, okay. And and I was like, What do you mean? She said, Well, no, surely no one cares. that's really personal stuff, no one's interested. so that was a real light bulb moment for me. and she did it in a kind of a nice way that probably makes her sound like she's an awful woman. But it was just that maybe that generational thing of Why are you opening up? Why do people care? Why is anyone interested in what you have to say? And I think that's the that's the crux of the problem, isn't it, really? But that's the moment for me, yeah, realising that my voice could help others. Sarah Collins: That's really interesting. So, yeah, that piece about resonating with other people. Now, the bit about your mum saying to you, Why are you sharing that? Let's just talk about that a second. So I agree. I think it's a generational thing, actually. We have been brought up by Women who perhaps didn't feel like they had a voice. And I'm speaking from personal experiences, obviously other people Hilary: Yeah. Sarah Collins: may think differently. and we've kind of been instilled to do the same, and yet we're of a generation where we're finding our voice and and bringing up children that perhaps are equally finding their voice right now as the next generation. What what are your thoughts on that? Hilary: I think it's fascinating. I've got a 17-year-old daughter and I can see the differences. Like if I look at how I was at her age and and and how I was using my voice, it's so different. With her and her friends, yes, they have a whole heap of other stuff they're dealing with. it's not l easy being a 17-year-old for sure. But in terms of their being able to share Their emotions, being able to talk about how they feel, being able to share their dreams, to be able to have an opinion. That's very different from when I was that age. And I think it was because, my my mom bless her. I love my mum to bits, but that generation where we don't talk about how we feel, we don't kind of rock the boat. my granny used to say children should be seen and not heard. And it was and then it was like women should be seen and not heard. And I think there's all of this stuff that we get lumbered with and it's the same, through the education system at school, we get you know, I was told off for talking too much. and before you know it, those kind of Hillary talks too much translates in your head as don't talk, it's bad, don't speak up. You know, and all of these things. I think generationally we're getting better. I think in terms of me really finding my voice, it hasn't really come out until I hit my forties. And I think there is just something, I'm forty six now. There is something about this kind of midlife period where we're just like, right, I'm just gonna go for it now. which is a good thing because it's teaching our children that it's okay. I've had to work hard to reverse some of those lessons that I had from my own family and and say from education and things to to be able to speak up now. But yeah, it's all of those influences, isn't it? It's all of the external stuff that really can can impact how we show up. Sarah Collins: Yeah, and I mean this was the the purpose around this podcast. You know, we are a generation of women who who weren't essentially taught how to use our voice to its full potential. I want to rewind a little bit because I want to hear from you about your career and everything before you started your business. I read that you were an introvert in an industry where there were really loud voices, Hilary: Yeah, and I'm still very much an introvert. I've learned that when I can be passionate about what I do, I come across as kind of more out there, but I'm still essentially a very introverted person. so I come from a a corporate background in my career. So I started off working in marketing for software companies and then worked my way up the ladder in IT and technology and telecoms. businesses very male oriented, very much about how fast you can get up that ladder, not caring about who you kind of push down on the way up. And it is about being able to speak up and not necessarily add value, but it's the people that can speak the loudest that get the promotions and get the leg up. And I found that really hard. I didn't feel like I had a place. I felt really uncomfortable within the corporate setting. I stayed there a long time. And I even set up an agency for six years in that space. And it's that feeling of never quite fitting. and because I was feeling like I had to show up in the same way that everybody else was, as I say, really male dominated. really full of people. if you could stand up and give an opinion, you'd move up. If you were quiet and introverted like I was, you're pushed to the wayside and you have to work extra, extra hard. So I had a daughter, took a year out, and then I went freelance after that. And then eventually I set up this agency with another woman. And we were really trying to do things differently. at the beginning I felt like, right, this is my space. I can feel that I can be more naturally me. As the business grew though, and we took on another female director, the three of us, I very much found myself. still performing. We were still in this industry. And the worst thing that I noticed is how everybody around me, they were molding their voices to be more male, to fit in with our customers, it was just a really bizarre place to be. And was like, this is still not me. I'm in meetings, saying things that don't feel like me, trying to put on a a brave face and like I'm the director of this agency and selling like hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of marketing services into really big brands and just like feeling awful about it and just still not feeling like I was being true to myself. eventually it made me ill and I had to make a choice and I stepped down from the board of that agency and said, Right, this is it. I just I've got to get out of the space. This is not the space for me. And I think that, was another big turning point, leaving the corporate world and going right, I've got to do this by myself now. and then I say as soon as I started kind of talking about this stuff in my new business and it resonated with people, then it gave me the confidence that I had something to say. So it's just it. It wasn't sort of about finding my voice. I think I'd just stopped using my voice and I think I had maybe never really got started as a problem. I certainly had a a strong voice when I was a child and the youngest of three. And so I had to I had to shout very loudly to be heard. But I think yeah that very quickly got knocked out of me. Sarah Collins: what's amazing about what you've just said is that acknowledgement. So you actually acknowledged that you weren't using your voice in a way that you wanted to use it. And I think so many people push past that, don't they, and just keep going. you said before about women seeming like we have to come across as professional. And it sounds like that was what your experience was. Hilary: Yeah, very much so. And I think there is only so much of that that I could do. And as I say, I think lots of people manage to push on through and they'll spend their whole careers, their whole life in that box and I thought, I can't I can't do this anymore. I want to be able to speak. I've got opinions, I'm bright, I'm intelligent, I've got views of the world. I need to be able to express that in the way that feels right to me and this constant kind of pressure to show up to be professional in inverted commerce. don't know why I'm doing the little buddy ears for a podcast, but I always do that. But yeah, that idea that there are certain standards that we have to follow, it really traps you because it it just means that, yes, some people fit really well into that world. and that's that's cool. But for people that don't feel they fit in that world, trying to constantly show up, mold your voice, say the right thing, use the right language. I've been criticized for the fact when I get quite excited, the pitch of my voice goes up, I get squeaky. And people have been really mean about that. So I'm really conscious of like having to lower my voice and kind of like keep and it's like it's ridiculous. We're having to do these things. just to kind of be seen as as credible and professional and and yeah, again, just get into my forties think, sod this, I can't why do I need to be doing this anymore? I don't want to be doing this anymore. This is ridiculous. This is absolutely crazy that we have to do this. Sarah Collins: I think it's a very brave thing that you've acknowledged it and then done something about it. because I think too many women just carry on on that treadmill and just think this is it. Hilary: they do, definitely. And I think that's what drives me to do what I do now as a business, because it's like, it's almost like I'm just because of my experiences and because I still don't quite know where that bravery came from. I think it was just like sheer like, I can't do this anymore. There has to be a different way. Through kind of going through that process myself and then, you know, realizing that actually there's really big value in in that whole kind of transformation piece that I've been through. And helping other women because yeah, this is majority of the women that I speak to, that I work with, that I network with, they're in this space where they're not brave enough. I'm very cautious around that word kind of bravery and confidence as well. I don't think it is actually that they're not brave enough, it's not that not confident enough. They don't trust themselves enough to be able to go and do these things because of all those external influences. It's all of those things, we blame ourselves. I'm not confident enough and I I'm not brave enough. I'm not courageous enough to stand up and do that. Or I haven't got the thoughts to be able to do that. But it's all the pressures around us that that, you know, it wear us down. And I I think, yeah, I definitely just got to that point where I just like, I just don't care anymore. I'm just gonna do this stuff. Or you know, I was getting really ill, like I said, and you know, it was really impacting my mental health. And it gets that point where you just like have to do something different. and then yeah, just thinking, right, okay, I can build a business from this, I can help other women. And that's the thing that gets me excited. It's what gets me up every day, is is helping women. And when I see the transformation and and I love it, you know, when people are just like, right, I'm showing up as me. I'm sure you're the same and you just like, yes, yes. Sarah Collins: Absolutely. And and what was lovely there is you you can tell in just the way that you're speaking. I can obviously see you and you're coming across as really, really passionate, which is lovely to see. when did your love of storytelling first become apparent, do you think? Hilary: When I was tiny. So this is something that has been in me since I was little, I loved to write. So when as as small as I can remember, when I first sort of started writing, I was making little books. I remember little paper books that were stapled together with my own rubbish drawings, and then dad got a word processor, and I remember that always being really excited that I could go on the word processor and write stories and have everything on my own floppy disc showing my age. Sarah Collins: Remember the floppy disc. Hilary: And I I I I was I had a a very strong imagination as a child. And so I I was the youngest of three. That was quite a big age gap. So I spent quite a lot of time by myself. And a lot of that was coming up with stories and and so it's always in me to write. And you know, originally I wanted to be a journalist and things didn't quite work out that way as they never do. And when I was sort of working in marketing. When I was working in these big tech companies, I was doing something that's called value proposition marketing, which is is all about creating a story about the value of the product or service for the customer that's buying it. Back in the early 2000s, this was quite revolutionary because most tech companies were still talking about speeds of networks and, you know, how many times around the world their their fiber cables went. and so it was it was the beginnings for me of of starting to understand a different way of communicating in where you were really thinking about what the person buying is going through. And from that, it's sort of storytelling for business was the next step because it's like, okay, this stuff is still quite boring for me. I want to get creative, I want to get fun with this stuff, and so I Went on a few courses and and just started to understand the reasoning behind storytelling and and I learned quite a lot about the science behind it. There's a humongous amount of neuroscience behind storytelling. storytelling is actually chemical responses in our brains. There's whole reasons why we are storytellers as humans. I could spend the whole of this podcast it telling you about this and I won't. I had to be careful not to go off on a tangent. But it you know, there is there is a reason why we're storytellers. And I think for me it was just then that kind of natural progression to saying, okay, I love to write. I understand the power of storytelling. I understand what it means from a business perspective. I understand how it builds trust, how it helps people develop empathy, I understand, you know, all of these things about it. And I've got my own story here. So how do I bring that all together? And that's how I ended up building a business of being a business storyteller. and it was just one of those things that it just for me, it's all connected to getting that voice out there. And we've got so many stories inside us and so much that we we can share. And if we learn the value of those stories and if we learn the techniques to tell those stories, you know, bec using our voice becomes easier because it's these are it's a human way of communicating. And so it's trying, you know, help people find a more natural way to use their voice rather than sort of, you know, some of the more serious marketing techniques. This is about tapping into what we've been doing since the beginning of time really. Sarah Collins: Hmm. You you've got me here because storytelling Hilary: Yeah. Sarah Collins: is something I equally feel passionate about, and I'm nodding along and noddling along to you. Hilary: This is Sarah Collins: I'm just thinking about the listeners to this podcast who might be thinking storytelling, sharing my story. I've had this from people I've met in networking, I've worked with. Sharing my story feels very vulnerable. And I don't quite know how to be authentic and be myself. as you said, we're of that generation. Perhaps we might have had children. We've almost lost our identity a bit, haven't we? We've forgotten who we are. so what are our stories? What would you say to those women? Hilary: First, I think they're really common questions and and concerns. I think, yeah, most of the people that I work with will ask the same thing. So I think there's a couple of things in there. I think regarding the vulnerability piece, and vulnerability became a real big trend a couple of years ago, and everyone's like, you've got to be more vulnerable on social media. it's telling your story, being more authentic. doesn't mean sharing everything. And I think there is this misconception. And I think that would feel really scary. You know, I am a storyteller who is is pretty open about my life, but really it's probably still only about 10% of the reality of my life that I share in public. so it's about it's about kind of setting your own boundaries. And I think this is the big shift for me. It's rather than editing yourself because you feel It's the right thing to do. I can only speak about this because otherwise it would be unprofessional. If that is the kind of thing that's keeping you from from sharing these stories, I would argue that that that thinking, that mindset can shift to okay, so I'll take that whole piece out. What is it that I really, really want to say? And what do I personally feel comfortable sharing? Not what is acceptable in the wider world, what do I feel comfortable sharing? And then the the other side of that is thinking about who you're sharing to. And in a business perspective, we're often thinking about our customer or if you're building a community. And so it's then it's saying okay I want to share this stuff. Which bits of this is going to be relevant to my audience? Which bits are going to be relatable? Which bits are going to be interesting? Sometimes there is, and we and we we all see it on on Instagram and things, this this feeling of kind of like trauma dumping. People just get on and then they share everything. They're like, why? the whole point with storytelling is about making those connections with people. So I always say it's like holding up a mirror to your audience. So in the bits that you're sharing, you want the people that you're trying to connect to. to be able to see themselves in that story. So, that's why I know with a lot of confidence, if I speak about my mental health issues, if I talk about perimenopause, if I talk about struggles bringing up children, running a business, all of these things, I I know it's relevant content because that's exactly the life stage that my audience are in right now. But if I I don't know, start talking about something completely different, it wouldn't be relevant and so you've got to set those own boundaries. and being authentic again we get to say what our authentic self is. We you know nobody else gets to set that standard for us. There isn't a a rule book that says you've got to be like this. some people will show up and they'll be loud and brash. Some people will be really quiet and there's value in all of that. I would say to people listening, it's about taking the time to really connect with who you are inside. And this is the path that I do with with the people I work with, you know, going right back to the beginning, looking at kind of who you were before children, who you were Sarah Collins: Yeah. Hilary: as a child, you know, what are these moments in your life that have taken you to where you are now? and what is it that You really want to share. No, I say if you were to take away all of that noise, all of that stuff that we tell ourselves, what is the thing that we would really, really like to to be able to share? What's the opinion? What's the experience? And then that let that be the starting point. And then build and edit from that perspective rather than sort of starting at the other end and trying to build in a bit of authenticity. Go from the really true moment and get it to a point in which you feel really comfortable to share with it rather than the other way around. Sarah Collins: I've not really shared this before, but when you were speaking, then something came up for me, which was about sharing your own kind of insights and opinions. And like your story, I've always had this feeling of, who's gonna want to hear what I have to say? And actually, the whole of last year, I really wanted to share that I think we're women of a certain generation who weren't taught the skills that we needed to thrive in business today. podcasts weren't around, networking for women wasn't around, social media wasn't around. And I sat on that for so long and didn't say anything. And then actually just being able to say that through starting my podcasts, through social media posts and in my emails, it felt really liberating. And I think we forget, don't we, that actually there are benefits to sharing these stories. Hilary: Absolutely there is. just out of interest, have you been able to reconcile what was holding you back? Sarah Collins: it was judgment. It was purely judgment. I was worried about what other people were going to say. So I had to work on quite a lot myself to to be able to Hilary: Yeah. Sarah Collins: get past that. Hilary: again things that all the women I work with are pretty much, in one way or another they'll have that fear of judgment. I totally understand it because I had the same and I still do to an extent, but it's so infuriating as well because often, so often, the people that we're so fearful that we're gonna get judged by are people that would never impact us as a business. they're never gonna buy from us. I mean, it used to be like my family. Someone said to me once, I I haven't shared this stuff because I'm worried about the other mums at the school gate. why do we care so much about this stuff? But we do. And I remember when I left corporate and I had a very big network in Corbett, because I've been in there for like several decades. And I I started up my Instagram account and I was doing like a kind of behind the scenes and this is my office and And one of the corporate guys that I worked with got in touch and they're like, I see you're trying to be an Instagram influencer now. And it was like within like, I don't know, maybe the first couple of weeks of me running my business. And I didn't share anything else for a couple of months because it really got to me. And that this is the problem. But I'm like, hang on, I'm not trying to sell to this guy anymore. he's not the people that I'm trying to connect with. I'm trying to connect with other women that are in similar situations working from home. And so I think that is. Part of it in, again, it's that mindset thing of actually who are we most scared of? Do they matter in our lives? are they ever going to buy from us? Are they ever going to recommend us? And and, you know, just trying to build up that muscle to be able to share. And then, like you said, it is really liberating. And so when you do it and you're like, this feels good, it's like a weight off the shoulder. Remember that. So when the next time you want to share something else that you've been sat with, you're like, I remember how good this feels. keep a keep a record of the comments that you get from other people going, so pleased you shared that because this is the stuff that will help us overcome that that kind of fear of judgment. But it's really real and these are the things that we have to we have to work through on a daily basis, which really annoys me because I don't think men men think that way so much. Sarah Collins: No, fortunately they d they don't, Hilary: Yeah. Sarah Collins: do they? It also goes back, doesn't it, to what you were saying at the very start about resonating with people. Now you talk about the story trust gap, don't you? Can you tell us a Hilary: Yeah. Sarah Collins: little bit more about that? Hilary: Yeah. So I think I've always been aware of this. Or certainly over the last few years I've been more and more aware of this, but I decided this year to give it a name. it's the idea that when yeah, speaking up, sharing our voice, telling our story, the barriers to that isn't us. It's not a confidence gap, it's not a confidence deficit. it's that idea that we're broken, we have to fix ourselves, we haven't got enough confidence. The story trust gap is actually what it says, it's us not being able to trust our stories enough. So it's the gap that exists between what we truly want to say and what we think we can say without cost. And it's the this idea of cost is really scary. And it's like it might be financial cost, it could be risk, it's anything that we we say, right, I've got this point of view that I want to get across, like your point of view, completely valid, really good, something you wanted to share, really helpful to other people, really relatable. And then we're like, hang on a minute. If I do that, what is that gonna cost me? Are people gonna judge me? Are people going to attack me for it? Am I going to lose out on that promotion? Are clients not gonna like me because of it? And then it can get even more serious, if you think of the certain demographics speaking up, how that can really impact, like if you think back to the Me Too Too movement, people were being cancelled, people lost their whole careers because they spoke up. that's an extreme version of it, but that's what I'm talking about. And because we've got that cost and we've got this kind of story we want to tell, we get this kind of situation where we soften and we edit our words before they even get out there. And so the the version of ourselves that shows up is this kind of hybrid-y, like safe version that you know, no one's going to fire. But equally, you're not going to be setting the world on fire. Using the word twice. because you're just kind of this middle ground. And in business, that middle ground is not necessarily the best place to be. and in life it isn't either. yeah, this gap between what we want to say and what we think we can say without that. personal risk to us. And I think for me, naming this gap is the first kind of part of the work of being able to recognise actually, yeah, it's not a failure on our part. it's not that we're not confident enough as women. We don't need to go on a confidence course. We don't need to go on a presentation course. We need to trust what our experience is, we need to trust what we really believe in. And we need to work on finding a way to bring that true version out. Sarah Collins: that's really fascinating and it's got parallels to the work that I do as well because when I'm teaching people how to appear on camera, actually there's a real difference between just appearing on camera and saying what you need to say and appearing on camera and actually having that belief and trust in what you're saying. It comes across in a very different way. What would you say would be one thing that potentially people could do to instill that trust. Hilary: it's about noticing it is the starting point, is noticing when you're about to edit. So, if you're going into a meeting, writing a post, doing doing something, maybe a pitch, whatever it might be, think about what am I leaving out that doesn't feel safe and why doesn't it feel safe? And it's just it's it it it's having that connection. And that ability just to pause for a minute and say, right, is this really it? You know, am I have I already subconsciously edited something out? and being able to kind of name name that thing that you're you're missing out and and working on it. You know, it doesn't mean that you have to kind of do everything all in one go, but just trying maybe Instagram is a good place to kind of trying this stuff or LinkedIn, just putting out that that story that's a little bit less edited and see with a response and using that as evidence, go, right, the world didn't collapse because I spoke my mind a bit here. Let's push it a little bit further the next time. And then it gets that point. it's just taking that moment to realise or to check whether you're editing something because we do it subconsciously. We're so ingrained in us now. because of everything we've discussed today, to do that safety check before we've even written stuff. It's just like in our brain that we have to soften these things. So yeah, taking that moment to double check and then just trying stuff and seeing what the worst thing. You know, what is the worst thing that's gonna happen? you might get trolled and that that's not very nice. And I've had that. And you know, it but there there are safer places to try it, isn't there? things like networking. I think that's a really good place to to test your voice. If you find Sarah Collins: Mm-hmm. Hilary: it really nice, I've got lovely all female networking groups in Bath and it's just they're the safest, loveliest places where actually you can show up and be your true self. So it's sometimes it's finding those spaces and testing it and and practicing and getting comfortable within those spaces. to then be able to go, okay, right, I can take it out. And there's nothing more empowering to doing it and a load of other women going, yeah, you've got this. Come on, come on. We need to recognize when people are sharing their truth and not attack them for it and just support, support people in doing this. Sarah Collins: Yeah, that's brilliant. Those supportive networks are so important, aren't they? Now, you're also a published author, Hilary, of your book, The Roar of Her Story. And can you just tell us, before we wrap up the episode, what does it mean to roar? Hilary: I was asked this a little while ago actually. for me, it's almost like the wrong word for me as an introvert, like I don't roar. I don't Sarah Collins: Yes! Hilary: know. But I think but that's the point. It's about finding our own way of roaring. And some people, as I say, can do it in the most loud, bright, wonderful way because that's who they are. And other people, it's the quiet, understated way of talking. it's about finding your way. roaring is doing it in a way that makes you feel good, that doesn't make you feel trapped, that doesn't make you feel like you're showing up as someone that you're not, that doesn't lead to all of these self-doubts. it's finding your truth, finding your way to to show up and being your own own self and doing it. it's not for me to tell you how you should roar. It's for you to decide what your roar sounds like. Sarah Collins: That's really lovely because everybody is different, aren't they? Everyone is Hilary: Mm-hmm. Sarah Collins: different. Everyone can roar in a slightly different way. Whatever works for them. Hilary: Absolutely. the more we do that, the more we can, you know, can show up in our own way, the the more we're going to change things for the future, I think. Sarah Collins: Now, Hilary, if anyone's listening to this and wants to know more, where can they find out more about you? Hilary: So I am on Instagram and LinkedIn as my two main platforms. So Hillary Solzman Stories on Instagram, Hilary Solzman on LinkedIn. I also have a Substack, Speaking of Stories, which is quite a good kind of go-to-place if you like reading long form. I love writing long form, so Substack is great for that. And there's my website, Hilarysolzman.com, where you can buy the Raw of her story as well, or you can get it from all major bookstores. I'd love for people, anyone listening to this to to reach out and hopefully, get value in in the stuff that I share online. And if anyone's interested in finding out a bit more, then just drop me a line. Always happy to chat to people. Sarah Collins: brilliant, wonderful. And just before we wrap up, I always ask my guests, if you could share a word or a phrase that fills in the blank to get listeners to speak with, what would that be and why? Hilary: I think for me it's speaking with honesty and speaking with truth. this is about trusting yourself. I think we need to empower our ourselves, empower our friends to trust who we are. We are brilliant, brilliant people. All of our experiences are valid and worthwhile and add value to the right people. So let's just speak with that honesty and trust our truth. Sarah Collins: Fantastic, thank you so much. Hilary: My pleasure. Sarah Collins: Thank you for listening to this episode of She Speaks to Scale. If you liked the episode or you think it will be useful for someone else, please follow and leave a review. Remember to speak with intention, not hesitation and let your voice be heard.