Latest / Mythmakers / The Spell Tailors: A Magical Book Launch with Elizabeth Clark and James Nicol

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The Spell Tailors: A Magical Book Launch with Elizabeth Clark and James Nicol · Mythmakers

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Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding. I
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need director of the centre but also ice for most of my time as an author writing in many
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genres but I particularly love writing fantasy. Now the centre has been going for just over a
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year now and we've already seen large numbers of students go through our creative program but one
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of the most exciting spin-offs has been the setting up amongst the writers of their own support
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groups which of course we're calling like a new version of the Inklings which brings people
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around the world together with like-minded folk to support each other in their creative journey
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after they've finished the courses with us and we have quite a lovely little community that
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stays together and carries on chatting. One group celebrated the publishing of one of our tutors
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books by having a special get together and I thought you'd enjoy to hear the conversation
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and just how coming together on a regular basis gives a sort of ease with professional authors
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and also gets a chance to get under the skin of what it's like to write a fantasy book. So please
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join us to listen into the launch of James Nichols, one of our tutors, new middle grade fantasy
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book spell tailors and the discussion is led by Elizabeth Clark who was one of our very first students.
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I'm so happy to be here with all of you today. We have a larger group than we normally have which
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is our Tolkien writing Inklings group which was founded from the very first course offered by the
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Oxford Center for Fantasy with Julian James and I actually have a t-shirt back here where everyone
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kindly signed like rock stars and James. See your beautiful signature there.
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And the roots. Yep. And so it's nice for all of us. We have Lucy here and Christina and I'm
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trying to see who else is new. So it's very special to have this chance to be here together and
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I wrote something that way I wouldn't mess it up because I'm kind of nervous and I think I
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brings back an old memory with my first tutorial with James where I told him I was very nervous
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and he said something unbelievably kind and thoughtful. And so put me and write a tease and I
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think I've heard that from other people as well. So I wanted to say welcome happy September and
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early fall. We have a few leaves changing here on the trees. I can't wait for the orange red and
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yellow windowpains to form in the forest. My name is Elizabeth. Most of you know that. Elizabeth Clarke.
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I'm an alumnus of the Oxford Center for Fantasy having completed two courses. The first online
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fantasy course taught by Julia James, MG, Rowena and Lucy and the 12 month novel in a year course.
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And like many of us, I dream of going to Oxford to see my friends and to be with Julia and attending
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an in-person course someday. I finished my first novel working with Julia and I live on my farm
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in Bath, New Hampshire, in the US with my two sons, although Charlie's off in a way. And hi,
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McCall, by the way. And Andrew and I have a business in coastal Maine in Kenny Bunkport.
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I'm an enthusiastic and proud organizing member of the project Northmore Toulken Writing
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Inkling Group Twig. And we've all become dear friends now, which I'm unbelievably grateful for.
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And James, I include you in that special group. And I like to consider myself a hobbit. That's my
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dearest association. So thank you for being here, James, especially during a hectic pub period
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of your life. Today we're celebrating and partying with our dear guest of honor, the distinguished
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and unbelievably talented and full of life, James Nichol. The spell tailors is published by the
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imaginative, fun and highly respected chickenhouse and Barry Cunningham. There it is. Yeah, and I hope
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you all get to read it because I'm just telling you right from the beginning, you're going to get
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transported and you're going to care very much about Hen and want to hear his story.
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The spell tailors is James' first novel after his phenomenally successful and well-loved
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apprentice witch trilogy that was picked up for a television series. And also I should have
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mentioned chickenhouse is affiliated with scholastic books. It's owned by scholastics in the United
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States. And I don't know if you know this, some of you know this and may have had the same
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experience I had, but my first independent moment picking a book out was age six through scholastic
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because they would come to the schools and they traditionally visit all schools across the
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United States and give you a beautiful pamphlet. So, you know, I would see apprentice witch there
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and Andrew saw it and, you know, it's it's a pretty amazing part of our literary history.
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So, I just wanted to say that. And what else? So, as far as James' book goes, I still have to
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purchase the book itself, the physical book, but I've listened to the audiobook narrated by Alex
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Winfield and I loved it. I loved his voices. It's amazing. I mean, you don't even think about
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him really doing voices. He's all those people. So, it's just been an absolute put and I had to
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push pause more than once because I didn't want to get too far ahead of myself today and I don't
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want to give you all spoilers. So, only the magical introduction that won't take you too far and,
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you know, wreck it for anybody. So, finally, I want to welcome James again. He's a very kind,
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full of life spirit that all of us enjoy and appreciate with all our hearts. James, would you
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please tell us a bit about yourself and you're writing background, you know, whatever you pick,
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because remember, we're toasting you today and you're more important than Jeff Bezos.
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Thank you. You're any day. You can sail on my yacht. I don't have one, but anyway, that's a bad
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joke. And I'm really interested in hearing about Han. I instantly connected and cared about him.
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And so, it's all good from here. So, welcome, James. Thank you, Elizabeth. I don't think I've ever
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had such a nice introduction in my life. I kind of feel like I'm at my own funeral.
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Somebody's eating my eulogy. That's lovely. Thank you very much. That's okay. That's
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okay. Yeah, that was really, really cool. Thank you, Elizabeth. So, yeah, so my writing, so
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I guess, my writing journey, I don't, I'm not one of those people that kind of, I don't think I
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necessarily as a child understood the role of the author when it came to writing books. I don't
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quite know why. I guess it's partly because unlike today, we didn't have authors come and visit
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schools. And so, it was only when I was a grown-up. I actually met proper authors when I go
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working in a bookshop. And also, I'm a terrible speller, which if anybody's had an email from the
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email, no. And I wasn't a very good reader at school. In fact, I was put into a slow reader's
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group, which a teacher won't show me. Don't exist anymore. And then another teacher said,
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well, they do, we just don't call them slow reader's groups. And so, I felt like I was,
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the complete opposite sort of person that would be an author until I started meeting authors.
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But I had always been a storyteller. I'd always loved telling stories,
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making up things, drawing maps of places that didn't exist, imagining the characters that lived
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there. And where I grew up, at the bottom of our garden, this sounds like I grew up in an
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independent bite book, but it's not quite like that. There was a very small word at the bottom
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of our garden. And all of our friends houses also backed on to this word. And it was like our
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extended playground. So we just used to climb over the fence and go and play in the wood. And I
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have two older brothers that would go off and do big brother stuff and kind of leave me at the
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first kind of opportunity. And I didn't mind. I quite liked that. I liked having my own space,
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playing my own games, being lost in my own world. And the wood for me was anything I wanted it to be.
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So there's a bit like my kind of extended film set or stage or whatever I wanted it to be.
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And so I think I was always telling stories all the way. And then it was just much later
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that I started to write them down. But I never showed anybody anything that I had written until
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I started working. Well, I did a short creative writing course through a organization,
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I don't think the organization itself exists anymore sadly because it was a very good creative
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writing course. Every module that you did, every kind of assignment was something completely
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different. So sometimes you would be writing. It was always writing for children. But sometimes
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you might be writing for young adults. Sometimes you might be planning a picture book. You might do
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nonfiction for children or a kind of magazine article. We might just be developing a character.
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And it was fantastic. It was the kind of, I think it gave me the kind of the boost that I needed.
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My tutor was really encouraging, which I think was really helpful as well, because I hadn't
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dared to show anybody. And then I, and then I'll see you have to when you're doing a writing course,
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as you all know. And that's, I think that's what I said to you, Elizabeth, isn't it? On that,
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on one to one, it was like, I know exactly how you feel, because I knew what it was like sending
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those pieces off and then waiting and waiting for the feedback to come. And then I'd see her email
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ping into my inbox. And I couldn't look at the, the first time that I got feedback, I didn't read
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the email for about three days because I was terrified she was going to, it was just going to be like
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laughter in email form. And that kind of why you doing this. And obviously it wasn't. So,
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yeah, so I was doing that creative writing course. And I'd had this sort of half idea for
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the apprentice which story. And my tutor, it instantly was also called Julia. It must be
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something about Julia's writing courses, said, if I wanted, I could submit chapters from the
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book, rather than do the remaining assignments. So she was the first reader for the apprentice
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which book really. And one of the things she said to me was to find when I'd done the first draft
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and I'd edited the book as much as I could was to find either an independent editor or somebody
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like that that could give me constructive feedback. Because that's what we all need. If we want
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to share our stories and make them as good as we can, we need feedback on those stories.
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And so I had that in the back of my mind as I carried on writing the book and then found out about
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the Golden Age Academy which then was lucky enough to be accepted onto their course. This was back
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in 2013 which feels like a million years ago now. And it was when I was working with my editor at
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Golden Age, Bella Pearson who had worked with Philip Pullman. And you know, I don't even need to
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give you a longer list of people she'd worked with. She worked with Philip Pullman, there we go.
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And she now owns our own publishing company called Guppy Books. And she had heard about a
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scholarship with chicken house where they would basically give you some money to pay towards your
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Golden Age course. And so she sent them the Apprentice Witch as it was then with a view to them
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giving me some money. And to cut a very long story short, I could do a whole different
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conversation about being accepted by chicken house. I had a couple of meetings with Barry Tunningham
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who I never thought for a million years would be interested in the Apprentice Witch because he's
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the publisher who originally published the Harry Potter books and this was a book about which
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on a broomstick and why would he want to do that again. And so he gave me some very good feedback,
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really useful feedback, which I responded to. But I kind of had in the back of my head the whole
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time that he wasn't, I wasn't going to get this scholarship. But I thought, well, I've had
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these two amazing meetings. I've had this amazing feedback that you know, it has cost me nothing
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really and has been really useful. And then I had this phone call where I kind of had worked
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myself up to the point that I'm going to say, thanks for trying, but you know, we're not going
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to go any further with this. And it wasn't Barry actually who told me it was Rachel Lysian for
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one of the editors, excuse me. And she said, we're not going to offer you the scholarship. And I
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said, no, I didn't think that was going to happen. And she said, but we would really like to publish
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your book, which is a very rare thing. And I never discount how lucky I was that that was how I
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how the Apprentice Witch kind of came into being. And obviously we went went on from there.
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So in terms of moving on to the spell tailors, which came out on Thursday,
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I had finished writing the Apprentice Witch book. So I finished the third one was published in 2019.
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And it was actually when I was just about to publish the second book that we were discussing
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what I was going to do next. So chicken has already asked me to write the trilogy. So we were
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saying, what's going to be the thing after Apprentice Witch? And they had, I think they had a very
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clear idea in their head about where they wanted me to go. And so they kind of half gave me a
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brief, but asked me to kind of come up with the idea myself, which I did. And they liked it,
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but they wanted changes to it. And so we did the changes to it. And then I went off and I
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wrote it and I did a couple of drafts that it just wasn't landing right for me or for chicken house.
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And so they very kindly said, look, just go away and write whatever it is that you want to write.
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And come back to us. Which was wonderful and brilliant that they had that confidence that
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I could go and deliver because, you know, when you have that conversation as nice as they were
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about it, when they say, look, this isn't working. You kind of think, well, perhaps that's it,
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perhaps those three books were all it was ever going to be. And so, but I had this idea
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for this idea of memories being kind of caught in weaving or woven fabrics as I was writing
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the apprentice, which on one of my golden egg courses, we were kind of encouraged to just write
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something completely different from what we were writing at the time. And I had this kind of
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bizarre memory thing in the back of my head. And I was quite keen to involve the Yacht in the
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story somewhere, which I didn't, the Yacht didn't make it into the book. I'm sorry, everybody.
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So the Yacht will have to be featuring somewhere later. And kind of in the breaks of doing
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the apprentice switch books and editing and writing, I would go back to this memory weavers,
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I think it's called memory weavers originally, this memory weavers idea and tinker with it and
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think about the characters and where the story would take place. And then obviously I'd go back
17:05
to apprentice switch and then it would be shelved for a bit longer. And when I was kind of going
17:10
back to the drawing board, I was kind of thinking of this story that again was partly, it was kind
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of thinking about my grandmother. So there's always grandmother's, a friend of mine asked me recently,
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in all your books, is there going to be a grandmother? And are they going to have like a strange
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sort of Italian sounding name? And I said, well, maybe, although the next book I'm writing has neither.
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So no, but I spent a lot of time with my grandmother's going up and so they kind of,
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you know, they appear quite happily as characters in the book and they just feel like very magical
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people to me. And so when my grandmother was younger, she had been a very ineffective parlor
18:00
maid in a country house. I think she got fired after about 10 days because she was just the worst.
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And I kind of, I still had this wonderful idea about this young girl who goes to be a parlor maid
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in this country house, but there's something magical also connected with this story. And part of
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the magic was to do with the box of clothes that they find in the house. And when the children
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put these clothes on, they sort of transform into different people. It's like the ultimate dressing
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up. So they put these clothes on and become completely different people. And so I pitched this idea
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to my agent and she said, well, I really like the idea of the magical clothes, but the rest of it
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isn't doing it for me. I think gave me a long list of reasons why I shouldn't pursue that as an
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idea. But she said, I think there's something there about the magical clothes. Go away and think
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about that. And that was really the best bit of advice really because I was thinking, well, what could
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I do with these magical clothes? And then suddenly I was like, ah, the memory, the memories and the
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magic and the clothes. I just need to smooch them all together. And that's the idea. And I quickly
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drew up her and outlined. So I normally, when I'm, for my contracts with chicken house,
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all I have to show them usually is either an outline for a story or a sample of writing from
19:26
that story. Because obviously, hopefully, they know I can write. And they just want to know what
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it is that I'm planning to write. And normally, that's where we go from. And so I sent them this outline
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which you won't be able to see, but it's kind of, you know, it's like a very extended blur of the
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book has all the details about what's going to happen, the main characters, the main kind of thread,
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haha, haha, of the book. And I also include some little pictures that have been my inspiration.
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So you can see, I don't know how well you can see those. There's some, some embroidering and a
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beautiful coat. And then kind of some other visual references for characters and settings and
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things like that. And it was the easiest book we, I've ever sold to chicken house. Because normally,
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they come back and say, oh, we like this bit of the story, like this bit of the story, but we want
20:28
more of this and more of that. So go and we do the outline and then send it back to us. And that might
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take three, four months to kind of bash it out, whereas they saw that and they never asked for any
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changes. That's not to say we didn't, when we were editing, but they basically loved it.
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And actually, my agent said at the time, if they didn't want it, I can sell it to 10 different
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publishers, don't worry. So that was, that kind of boosted my confidence back, I'll begin,
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because I felt a bit sort of deflated after the book that hasn't gone anywhere yet.
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And so I started to work on the spell tailors. And as Elizabeth, I don't know how you saw just
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before we started, officially started Elizabeth was showing us some beautiful garments that
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from her family kind of archive, I suppose, is the best way to describe it isn't Elizabeth.
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It's a beautiful police jacket. Is it a police jacket? Do you know, is it just a police?
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It's just a police. Just a police.
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There we go. Oh, Elizabeth's showing these beautiful. So it's like this sort of short
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jackets that they wearing Jane Austen adaptations, and obviously did back in the day.
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So similarly, I don't have a lot of items that belong to family members, but I do have
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these two biscuit ins. And they, they came to me one, the red one is belong to my mom, and
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the blue one belonged to one of my grandmother's. And they came to me after both of them and
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sadly passed away. And the blue one, I knew, I knew what was in both of them really, but I kind of
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forgotten. So the blue one was filled with always filled with photographs of people, postcards,
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letters, there's even a book of common prayer in here that belongs to my great, great uncle,
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I think it was. And in the front, you won't, I don't think you'll be able to see it's so
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old as one of the pieces. I don't know if you, if the light will catch it, he's written some prayers
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in pencil, and you can only really see it when the light hits it. So there's all these little
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artifacts. And I went through them once, when we, when we first moved into this house, I thought
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I'm going to sort through that tin because I knew there were bits in there that there were photographs
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of my dad, my grandparents, great grandparents that I knew of. So I sorted the, the
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contents into some pile. So I had stuff that I knew who it was over here. But then I had this
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bigger pile of photographs and letters and things, but I have no idea who they belonged to. So they
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could be family members, they could be just friends, very distant relatives, next one neighbors,
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who knows. But in the Feltailers, there's a whole bit of the story in that Hen thinks he knows
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his family history in the shop and in the house where they live. So the Feltailers shop
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has the apartment above where the family will live. And in this grand staircase that goes up
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from the shop into the apartment is the family gallery. So it has paintings, photographs of all of
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his ancestors going right back to the first Feltailer. And it's like, that's where you want to be.
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If you've achieved something as a Feltailer, your image goes on the family gallery and you're kind
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of assured, you're, you're placed in history. But what Hen discovers is that there's other family
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members that never appear on that wall. And that's what made me kind of, and that was sort of inspired
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by these photographs, because there are all these family, you know, I've been told family
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stories about uncles that died in the Second and First World War, cousins that did things,
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but so many other family members that I'll never know their stories for. And then in the red
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biscuit tin is the other thing. And this is, Elizabeth has probably got to this bit already.
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To Hen does find a biscuit tin in the attic when he's, he's banished to the attic,
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for upsetting his uncle once too often. And in the attic, he uncovers a biscuit tin that has a
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garment inside it. And the garment has a particular type of spell. And then we spell stitched into it.
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And this biscuit tin is full of pieces of lace, sewing equipment, there's like little
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patches for needles and things. And even this beautiful little
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blouse that I think it must, I think it's sort of an audience, I'm not sure. It's very short.
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It would go under the police jacket quite mercy, I should think. You need something else underneath it.
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And there's also what you can't appreciate is this beautiful smell. At some point,
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some parking was something must have been spelled on these things. And it's still, it's like somebody's
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just put it on. It's so beautiful. So there's all these like this beautiful beading that I guess
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was there to be stitched onto something. And it just again, it made me think that these things,
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these items belong to somebody, belonged, I'm presuming to family members. My mum never told me
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where they came from. And so I don't know the stories of who they belong to, but kind of putting
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those together with those, those pictures and those stories that I don't know. I imagined
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my own stories for them. And that became the heart really of what happens in the spell tailors.
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What else do you want to know, Elizabeth?
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Oh, you're a mute.
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Okay, that's classic. Of course, I want to, you know, anyone, actually, James, let me jump
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ahead for one second and then, how would you like people to ask you questions?
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Oh, I don't mind if people want to put them in the chat or if people want to ask them,
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do me, you know, would go now. That's fine as well. People would hold up pieces of paper to the
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screen. However, not sign language though or interpretive dance because it's, you know, you don't
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have all even. So I wanted to, what you just described, I absolutely love that in your book.
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Um, that transformative moment where, hand finds the box and all the sudden, it's like the
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sky is lifting up and, you know, he's, uh, I forget what, I think it was, was it silk?
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What does he feel? I forget. Yeah, it's a silk sort of heart. I'm like, isn't it?
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It's the fabric, yeah. Yeah. I think the fabric changed a lot because I suddenly
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realized during an edit that I had an awful lot of velvet.
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Nearly every garment I wrote about seemed to be velvet for some reason. So I was like, oh,
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to pick a different fabric. Yeah. Well, I like the velvet reference, actually, because that's
28:06
a big sprung, um, on a lot of levels of fabric. But, um, yeah. So, um, I, I'm going to go back to
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what I said, no spoilers here. Um, but, uh, the beginning is so rich that it's fine to just talk
28:25
about the beginning. And, um, I was going to ask you about, there's a lot I wanted to ask,
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go ahead and write down about the Dennelly. Is that the right thing? Yeah, yeah. And it goes
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back 400 years. Is that right? And the story begins, I believe in 1776. Is that correct?
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That's when the spell tailors, um, business was established. It was established, right?
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In 1776. And, um, so where does that, where does that all begin? The 400 years ago, what,
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what was the first, you know, real movement of, you know, why the, I got the, I mean, of course,
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I know the story about the need for spell tailors, which I found was fascinating, like the protective
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stitch and all of that. Um, so, so where did you get that, that idea from James? It's so amazing.
29:17
The idea of special stitches being put in clothing and the magic of that.
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In, in earlier versions, um, without giving away too many spoilers, um,
29:29
hen, there were, there was more than one garment that hen finds in the attic. And so he go,
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he went into different memories. Um, and at one point in hand, she goes into the memory that
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reveals, or revealed the truth of Domenico Dennelly, who was the first spell tailor, this kind of
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cammy, um, wily businessman who realized actually that the, the, the magic in the world was shifting
29:58
or changing or fading slightly. And to preserve it, they realized that if they stitched the spells
30:04
into into fabric, it somehow preserved the magic, but also in doing it, it made a different type
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of magic and it imbued those stitches and the fabric themselves with much properties.
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And so he realized, oh, we can turn this into a moneymaking scheme. We can't be sorcerers
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anymore, but we can, you know, we can adapt. Um, and so he's quite, he's the sort of canny
30:30
businessman and, and through that line, um, through the Dennelly line, we end up with hen,
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who himself is now looking to how he can mostly get his picture on the family gallery. That's
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what he's thinking about at the beginning of the story, but not too far in, we realized that the
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business might be in, in peril, um, when Uncle Bertie aren't new cheer and cousin Connie descend
30:57
on hen and Nana's spell tailor shop because they've had to close their own through mysterious
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circumstances. Um, and also because there's a competitor who's making spelled garments in a factory,
31:09
um, or in fact trees. Um, but hen loves fixing things, mending things, reimagining how things can
31:17
be assembled. He likes to recycle clothes. But Uncle Bertie doesn't see that as a future for
31:23
the business because why would somebody have something mended, you know, why would somebody buy
31:28
something new if they can just have the old thing mended. Um, their business is making new garments,
31:34
not fixing old ones. Um, and so he just doesn't see hen's point of view to start with. Um, and yet
31:42
obviously there's a, there's a quite a clear link between poor hen and, and Domenico, although actually
31:48
it wasn't really Domenico. Shh, perhaps we'll find out in a later book the, um, the true, the true
31:55
history of the spell tailor. But that's what everybody thinks is that it's Domenico who was the,
32:01
who was the cany person. Um, and it's not quite, that's not quite how I truly imagined it. Um,
32:08
yes, so that's kind of, that's where they've been established. The family, you know,
32:14
big family that's kind of gone their separate ways. So, um, some stayed on this, on these islands
32:21
called the Sillion Islands, um, which was kind of, you know, not too far leap from thinking they
32:29
were sort of a vaguely Sicilian family. Um, if it was this world, um, some came to a country called
32:37
Engle, um, and established the spell tailor shop there under the name, but then as we trace the,
32:45
the kind of immediate family treeback, hen's Nana has only come from Sicilian, sort of as a young girl,
32:54
um, to take over the shop from her great uncle. Um, and obviously she's then, she's then had her own
33:02
family. Um, an uncle Bertie will be the one that takes over in time. So that's why there's the,
33:07
the tension really is that Nana's still there but she's older and she doesn't really want the,
33:12
the who are of running the family business. Uncle Bertie wants to run the family business,
33:17
but cleaning isn't doing the best job at it. Um, and hen just wants to make clothes,
33:25
but then discovers this new kind of old kind of stitch, um, that could be very, is very important
33:32
to the family that could be important beyond the family could save the business as well.
33:38
And there's an interesting part, um, about hen's parents, because we don't quite know,
33:47
you know, what's going on there. He's, he's being raised by his grandmother, who's a very skilled
33:54
spell tailor, but still this is the beginning we discover, um, it's a major desire to create your
34:02
own magical stitch. Yeah. Okay. Something unique. And, uh, she still hasn't done that yet,
34:09
even though she's kind of a master, is that right James? She's kind of a, yeah, I mean, she's obviously
34:14
been, been spell tailoring her whole life and, but she, she likes to experiment. And, um,
34:20
throughout the book, we see her knitting her famous red scarf, um, which she's always very
34:27
disappointed when she finishes and you don't find out until the very end why she's always
34:32
disappointed with the scarves. And she just gives them a way to people, um, in a kind of,
34:37
you know, you have it, because it's, it's not really very good. Um, so with hen's parents, so, um,
34:46
this was more of a, a logistical thing. So originally, I had,
34:52
had hen's parents be divorced, and he lived with his mum and his nama in the spell tailor's
34:57
shop. But then I realized when I then introduced Uncle Bertie Artichia and Connie, there were
35:03
just too many people in some of the family scenes. And I get really confused when I have too many
35:08
people in the scene. I learned early on not to have too many people in the scene. And also,
35:15
there was the struggle between having, um, the, the kind of the tension with Uncle Bertie
35:22
and why his mum wouldn't just step in and deal with that, to kind of say, look, hen's my son
35:28
back off. Um, and also having the lovely nurturing Artichia who just worries constantly about
35:34
everybody, um, that there was, there was then too many people mothering him and you kind of
35:41
think, well, he's not going to, he's not going to do what he needs to do because he's got too many
35:44
people looking after him. And so I killed them both off. And I thought, oh, no, I can't keep killing
35:52
kids' parents off in books. It's just that scene, it's felt a bit too easy. Um, and also, you know,
35:59
it's kind of, it's a bit expected in a way that, you know, your main characters' parents are
36:05
probably dead or, or kind of distracted elsewhere. So I decided to go for the distracted
36:11
elsewhere, made them scientists. So they're not interested in his belt hailing and they're off
36:16
doing their experiments, who knows where. Um, so we only get contact from them through letters
36:21
and things and, and hence it will keep in contact with them that way. Um, again, in an early
36:26
draft, I did have them appear towards the end. Um, but it just, it seemed that, rather point
36:32
as to have them just appear at the last moment. Um, and actually worked better for it, for it
36:37
not to be that they turned up. Um, yeah, interesting ways to dispatch parents. Um, I, you should do,
36:44
we can do like a whole like, you know, I don't know, paper on that, Julie, we could do a whole seminar
36:52
dispatching parents in middle grade literature. Yeah, the first rule is get rid of the parents.
36:57
Yeah, you say, don't have to be dead or make the parents the problem. Yeah.
37:02
That's see, if you're going to keep them around, if they, as you say, if they are there to nurture
37:06
and look after, it's kind of like end of story, I'm going to go and have an adventure. No, you've
37:10
got to do your homework. Yeah. Oh, oh, no, this happened. And the moment I'd like, oh, I'm
37:15
ring the police. Oh, end of story. Um, yeah. So that's, that's why I, I sent the parents off to
37:25
be scientists and do something else. So, and obviously, as I said before, I had, I spent a
37:30
lot of time with my own grandmother's growing up. And that was a very important relationship to
37:35
me. And I think, you know, I think in lots of ways now, perhaps with, with more, you know,
37:41
people don't often live as close to their grandparents, they don't spend as much time with,
37:46
with grandparents or older people, particularly, whereas I did growing up, we had quite elderly
37:50
neighbors. Um, and I just, I don't know, I love old people. Um, and so I, and I think they,
37:58
they're underestimated in the real world, but also often underestimated or just made,
38:03
for like comedy relief in children's books, you know, they're kind of like, I remember saying to
38:09
my Nana was, Shane, why can't, because she was, there's a, I don't know if you've got to be,
38:15
yeah, there's one of my actual memories of my grandmother is in the book where she ran through
38:19
the local park and she was swinging around lampposts, like we're in some sort of ridiculous musical.
38:25
And it's like, to this day, it makes me absolutely how would laugh to to think about it.
38:31
Um, and I remember saying to my Nana, when I was probably, you know, well, I shouldn't say that
38:38
either way, whatever age I was, but I wasn't very old and I said, well, why can't you just be like
38:42
other old people and sit in the corner and dribble? Um, which is obviously not what old people do.
38:47
Um, and certainly not what my, what either of my grandmother's did. So, yes, shame on me.
38:55
Yeah, so I'm actually, I, uh, I support you in what you said with my whole, whole heart about
39:07
older people and I kind of crusade on that subject actually a little bit, especially going back
39:14
to the United States. Um, and poor Charlie, you're going to have to listen to this, my son. But yeah,
39:20
I mean, um, you know, wisdom, personality, experience, uh, ready to have fun, you know,
39:30
no holding anything back. Um, and, and a, a deep love comes with a lot of older people.
39:37
And, uh, you know, never discount that or underestimate it. I mean, excitement is great. You know,
39:45
youthful excitement and enthusiasm and that is special as well. But what you're talking about
39:50
can parallel that and be even better sometimes. So honestly, yeah, so that's a nice thing to
39:59
mention. And I love that in a story. Absolutely. I think I saw some questions painting in the chat.
40:06
Should we have a look?
40:21
When I'm planning to visit the US and especially in New Hampshire, I would love to come and visit
40:29
Bernie. Um, I don't know when that's going to happen, but that would be, that would be great.
40:38
Oh, Lisa has a question. How and when did you know what age group to write the story for?
40:44
Um, so I think there was no question really with the spell tailors on the back of the apprentice
40:52
switch that it wouldn't be for the same age group really. I think they're particularly when it's,
41:00
although it's not my second book, it's my fourth book, I think with the start with the next book
41:04
after your kind of series, you probably wouldn't go too far outside of that same age group.
41:11
Um, although obviously it's been quite a gap between the third apprentice switch and this. So I,
41:18
I've probably probably lost quite a lot of my apprentice switch readers. They've probably grown up
41:23
and moved on to other things anyway. So it probably wouldn't have been too much of a problem.
41:28
But I think certainly chicken house would have expected me to continue with that similar age group
41:33
for that book. Um, but initially when I started to write the apprentice switch, the idea I'd had,
41:38
I thought it would be a YA book and I don't know why because I don't, I do read YA, but I don't
41:45
need a lot of it. It's certainly not what I'm passionate about and I was, I'm passionate about
41:50
writing for middle grade readers because I think those are the books. When I think of the books
41:56
that really impacted on me to start with, it was those books that I read during that sort of
42:03
seven to 12 sort of age range, things like the 101 Dalmatians and the Narnia books, you know,
42:11
massive impact on me. And so that's kind of, that's why I write for that age group. I think
42:19
that the books that, that you'll remember always and hopefully share with, with your own children,
42:26
grandchildren, nieces, nephews and then talk about, you know, when you're older and go,
42:32
oh, can you remember when you first read? You know, I don't think, you know, I'm not saying my
42:37
books as good as the Narnia books, but it would be nice to think that some went down the line
42:41
to people might go, oh, do you remember when you read the spell tailors or be a practice switch?
42:46
That would be lovely. So that's, I think that's the main reason for writing for age group.
42:52
I see in the Swedish market thing of the book, it's six to nine years old. That will be younger than
42:59
the apprentice switch. Yeah, I mean, it differs from country to country as well,
43:06
because I know with the apprentice switch books, they were published in Spanish, but they were
43:10
much more aimed at teen readers, actually, and that's to do with reading levels in different countries
43:16
and different markets. So the, the covers are more sophisticated than probably the,
43:22
than the cover that we had in the UK, because they were looking more at the kind of the young
43:27
teenager, rather than the, rather than the pre-teen market. So I think that has an impact
43:34
on where, where your book's being published and what the age, the reading age is, sorry,
43:39
rather than the age range, the reading age of the child, children reading them.
43:49
So, Ortonia, were you going to say something? I was, I was just going to say a quick thank you
43:56
to James for being so forthcoming about your struggles as a child with reading and writing,
44:04
one of my, my boys, my middle son, who is now 12. He is our ADHD superstar and he still has a really
44:14
hard time writing letters, actually just forming the letter and having it go in the right direction
44:20
and reading. And yet he is our most creative, this, this kid's destined for something creative.
44:29
And so I always, as his mom, and I know so many other moms that have kids that are these,
44:37
you know, we kind of refer to them as the IEP because the individual education plan. So they have
44:44
to get their help through school, they have their IEP and it's just, it's so hard for him.
44:50
So I love finding these examples such as yourself where, you know, that part didn't come easy
44:58
as a child and yet you're still so much of your adult life is there. So thank you for sharing
45:04
that. I hope you continue to share that story with lots of kids. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the things
45:08
I do talk about when I, when I go to school visits, the fact that I wasn't, you know, I wasn't a good
45:14
reader at school and and I still, you know, I still, I'm, I still am a slow reader. I cannot read
45:21
quickly. I have a friend who could read, you know, she could have read the spelltators probably in
45:26
in half a day. I cannot do that. And I think partly it's from not having been a very proficient
45:34
reader as a child, but also something to do with being used to reading because I've worked in
45:40
bookshops and libraries all my life as well, reading out loud to people. So I always read something
45:46
as I'm reading out loud with the pauses and, you know, I even do the silly voice in my head.
45:52
So I think that's also part of the part of the thing as well. But the thing I also say to children
45:56
these now is that, you know, there are so many different ways to tell stories, books are one of the
46:03
ways. But then that's not the only way to tell a story. You know, we've got there's graphic novels,
46:09
there's films, there's, you know, the computer games now are so much more sophisticated than they
46:14
were when when I was a child. And there is all rich, amazing storytelling. So it doesn't mean that
46:21
if you want to tell stories that you have to sit and physically write them, you can find a different
46:26
way to tell stories. It doesn't have to be that way. If that doesn't feel right for you,
46:32
because it's not, it's not going to fit for everybody at all. Yeah, good luck to me.
46:43
Charlie asked a question in the chat and said, are you sticking more with series writing?
46:47
Would you consider standalone novels? So this currently is a standalone novel because the next
46:55
book I'm writing isn't the continuation of this Bell Taylor story. Initially,
47:02
I chickenhouse asked if I have an idea for a second book, which I do. And they were quite happy
47:10
with the suggestion. But they also wanted to look at, you know, having a completely different book.
47:20
They're obviously thinking more from a business point of view on what they can sell to different
47:24
publishers around the world, because that's how they make their money and they make use of money as
47:28
well. And so the book I'm writing at the moment in between doing everything else is not the second
47:37
Bell Taylor book. It's something completely different. It's a bit mad as well. I'm not going to lie.
47:44
It's a bit crazy. But they seem to like it. So yeah, we'll see. And hopefully that will come
47:52
out either late next year or early 2024, depending on how quick I get on with my draft and editing
48:00
and things like that. So I'm going to follow up with we're going to do a bit more of the
48:06
nepotism here with my son, Charlie. So James, I heard a nice interview, a brief one with Barry
48:16
Cunningham talking about your potential TV show. And is that still something I hope that's in
48:24
the works? I know I thought I'd ask you because I know you kind of have to wait and see what happens.
48:29
And so I wanted to hear, you know, your thoughts on that because that was really exciting. And I
48:34
wanted to add it was super exciting because Charlie loved the books because Scholastic had these books
48:40
and it was the show House of Enubis. I don't know if you saw that. And apparently the connection
48:47
with your potential show. So I was just before the second apprentice which book came out that
48:58
I had a call from Barry. It was in the throes of we had a terrible winter storm back in 2018 called
49:07
the Beast from the East that kind of brought the country to its knees and ruined my book launch
49:16
completely. But I was still working full time at the time as well and I was in one of my libraries
49:23
back down in Cambridge here for a meeting and then a break in this meeting that was making coffee
49:28
or something my phone rang and it was Barry. And I, you know, he occasionally rings to sort of
49:34
asking me something or telling me something or stuff like that. And so I didn't think too much of
49:40
it. And he said that there was a TV production company that were interested in possibly taking
49:46
on the apprentice switch with a view to turning into a TV series and that the chat, a guy called Tim,
49:55
would be at my book launch when it was we scheduled and I was, you know, pressure to then be
50:02
sparkling and brilliant and, you know, clever like that. And Tim, who works for a company called
50:10
Line Pictures, has previously worked on the House of Enubis and loads of other stuff he also worked
50:18
on. I discovered and I don't know if this will mean anything to anybody else apart from
50:23
Julia, I'm sure we'll know. Pingu. So, you know, that was fine, you know, anything he said was good
50:31
with me. Pingu's like a little claymation penguin, I can't even say penguin now. It's a bit bizarre.
50:42
So yeah, so I met Tim and we had a nice chat and then it was probably, I think it was
50:52
that was sort of February time, February March and around about Easter, I got a contract for the
51:00
for the initial kind of period for for optioning the rights for the books. And so that was 2018.
51:09
Here we are in 2022 and still no TV series, but there has been lots of stuff going on in the
51:16
background, a lot of stuff that I can't tell you about because TV executives will swing through my
51:21
writing and window, put a sack over my head and beat me, you know, beat me about a head with,
51:27
I don't know, I was going to say a DVD box, but who has DVDs anymore? A Netflix subscription probably.
51:37
So there's lots of development going on, but TV is much slower than publishing, which is already a
51:43
very slow entity, but there is stuff it is still going through, there is still people are still working
51:50
on it. It's some very exciting people are working on it, which can I can't tell you about?
51:58
What can I tell you? I've seen a pilot episode script for the first episode, which was very exciting.
52:05
But yeah, that's kind of it's one of those things that when people ask me about it,
52:12
thank you for asking about it, I get excited and I get to tell you a little bit about it,
52:17
but when it's not happening, it goes back in its biscuit tip, goes under the bed and I don't
52:23
think about it because I think you could probably drive yourself quite mad thinking when's it
52:30
happening? When's it happening? When's it happening? And it's so out of my control that I just,
52:36
unless I see an email from Tim or he rings, I don't really think about it too much unless somebody
52:42
is kind enough to ask and then, and then I have to kind of say a little bit, I can't tell you
52:48
all of the stuff I wish I could tell you, but yes, it's still, it's still trendling nicely along,
52:56
and hopefully hopefully soon should go into full production at which point you will hear me
53:04
all the way in New Hampshire, me screaming with excitement and I'll tell you all the details then.
53:12
And we'll be screaming back at you and thank you for opening the biscuit tin again for us and
53:17
getting us excited, honestly, so that sounds really good, James, that sounds good.
53:22
Yeah, I think it's an exciting thing and I think it's rare for it to go, you know,
53:28
certainly Barry and my agent were saying it's very rare for things to get this far down the line.
53:34
Barry was saying that with Chicken House, they've had two other series that have been sort of
53:42
in pre-production. He said, I haven't quite reached the pinnacle of one which was in pre-production
53:49
for I think seven years. He says, I've got a bit of a way to go before you start and I don't even
53:54
think that's even gone into production yet, so they must have just been slightly ahead of me.
53:59
I can't remember the name of the book that he told me, but I think, you know, these things do happen
54:07
and they can be so. And obviously, of course, we've had COVID in the middle which probably
54:11
hasn't helped things either, so yeah, we'll just wait and see. Perhaps by the time it's ready and
54:19
on the tally, my little girl will be old enough to sit and watch it.
54:25
I just want to point out Nancy's got a really interesting question in the chat.
54:32
Thank you, James.
54:35
My question is about developing the idea. I know you spoke a bit to this already, so the premise
54:40
of the story, the spell tail is an awesome foundation about how do you develop all the characters'
54:44
personalities to make the story interesting and hold together. Do you make a family tree ahead
54:49
of time? Are you a plotter or a panster? I'm a planster, Nancy, which means I make my plan,
54:59
which is like what I showed you, where's it gone, my outline. By this time, I've kind of worked
55:07
on that for maybe, you know, a month, six weeks, two months maybe, and it's kind of been pinging
55:13
back with the boys between me and I might show it was some right offence to get their sort of
55:17
input. Obviously, shout with my agent, show the publishers. By that point, I think it's so fixed in
55:23
my head what the story is that I tend to just set that aside and then start writing. I'm not
55:32
too much of a worker in there and so far, touch wood, nobody's come back to me and said,
55:37
hang on a second, this is not what you put in your outline. I don't veer too far off of track,
55:43
but obviously you do change things as you're writing the story just because you suddenly realize
55:48
actually that doesn't, it's not working when you get to the actual writing of it, you realize that
55:54
it's not going to work for whatever reason. In terms of developing characters,
56:03
I think it's a very good question. I think a lot of that comes with working with my editor.
56:10
I think that's one of the things that often comes to working with my editor and that might be
56:16
you know just and she often does it in terms of posing questions to me. So it's not about her saying
56:24
you need to make your character do this to develop them, but she might say, let's think about
56:29
you know what somebody's motivation actually is behind this action or what you know what what's
56:39
this person thinking while this is going on and it does in those sorts of things that are
56:44
making you think, oh hang on a second, I need to I need to draw this out a little bit.
56:50
But I think also you know hopefully I've learned as I've written three books and developed
56:56
the characters over those individual books and over the course of over the arc of the three books as
57:01
well. So I think developing the characters feels not easier thing to do, but it does feel like
57:10
it's something I'm more aware of myself when I'm when I'm writing and editing myself to kind of
57:16
look at those things as well. And also I think for me like I said before not having a cast that's
57:23
too sprawler makes that a lot easier because you can you can see how those things are shifting and
57:31
as the story goes on. For example with with stiltailers there's there's a kind of relationship shift
57:40
between Hen and Connie so although their cousins they've not spent a lot of time together
57:45
and their relationship to begin with is quite frosty and then it's through their actions and through
57:51
what happens in the story that they become closer and then again something happens and sort of
57:57
pulls that apart a little bit to somebody just gasping shock. And then and then it's about
58:05
niching that back together again knitting pun intended. And then Uncle Bertie who's kind of he's
58:15
sort of all over the place because he's mega stressed with the whole trauma of the business and
58:20
and his relationship with Hen that was I think it's fun as well it's fun doing all of those things
58:29
developing the characters and changing them and and thinking about how how they're going to play out.
58:34
But it comes to me I don't think about it too much in advance it comes through the writing and the
58:42
editing that the development I can't I can't always plan how somebody's going to be
58:49
that that comes as you start to write them and get to know them through writing them that might
58:55
sound a bit whoo he's a bit crazy thinks the characters are talking to him and I don't think that
59:03
but they do. James on that happy free spirited moment I think I guess we're going to transition
59:16
into the rings of power discussion and I thought we'd all give James a very shyer like toast
59:25
and and wish him well and and I know I don't you don't need another eulogy James but I'm sorry
59:33
we just all love you so much and that's the truth and and I want to wish you well and I love the book
59:39
absolutely love the book and I hope everybody gets to enjoy it and it will be one of those special
59:45
books that I I put in the spot and revisit and I just loved everything I mean there's so much
59:50
I wanted to talk about but it would just be about even the cloth the magical cloth book that's
59:55
cloth that that hen knows about that has all the secret spells and and I just loved it I loved
1:00:03
everything about it so I just wanted to say that and I want to wish you well and you look well
1:00:08
I wanted to add that you you do well under pressure James and again I've got that
1:00:16
zoom filter cranked well up and I've got a ring light here so I don't I look like an awl
1:00:22
actually far from it but fine all works should look so good right guys I look like an awl with a
1:00:31
oh here here's to James nickel and we want to wish you all things healthy and well and happiness
1:00:38
enjoyed to you and your family and thank you so much James for visiting with us today and thank you
1:00:44
it's lovely to see everybody again thank you very much she is thank you very much for listening to
1:00:51
this episode of myth makers if you'd like to come and join us on one of the courses the next six
1:00:57
week online fantasy course starts in October details can be found on the link on our show notes
1:01:05
or on our website also we didn't have a chance to ask where in all the fantasy worlds would be the
1:01:12
best place to be something which is usually how we finish so I thought in honor of James's book
1:01:18
I'd ask the question where in all the fantasy worlds is the best place to be a tailor
1:01:25
and thinking about this I actually went old school and one of my favourite children's books for
1:01:31
illustrations is the Taylor of Gloucester which may remember is that beautifully illustrated
1:01:39
story about mice in a tailor shop and I think for me that always leaves me a very warm glow
1:01:44
showing how fantasy can be also a form of fairy story when you're little with the magical
1:01:51
imagining creatures coming in and doing the work for you which of course is wonderfully attractive
1:01:57
for the idea of the tiny stitches so that would be my pick we'd love to hear from you where you
1:02:03
would pick as the best place to be a tailor thank you very much for listening until next time good bye
1:02:09
thanks for listening to MythMakers podcast brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy
1:02:22
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