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From Relationship Ambivalence To Clarity: Ways To Decide Whether To Stay Or Go · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:00
  Merideth: It's an impact on our health, our relationships of people that are in really great ones.
• 0:03
  Merideth: They have a longer health span and lifespan, and those who are not, like you're taking years off their life.
• 0:12
  Mary: For centuries, the phrase shrinking violet was used to diminish women, to suggest we were meant to be small and meek.
• 0:19
  Mary: But in nature, violets are anything but weak.
• 0:22
  Mary: They're resilient, beautiful, and essential to the ecosystem.
• 0:26
  Mary: Hi, I'm Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist, and each week I sit down with women who remind us that being compared to a violet isn't an insult.
• 0:34
  Mary: It's a testament to strength, endurance, and the power of taking up space and living by your true nature.
• 0:40
  Mary: If you're ready to stop drinking and start thriving, you're in the right place.
• 0:45
  Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
• 0:49
  Mary: As a therapist, I've helped both couples and individual clients navigate relationships.
• 0:54
  Mary: One thing I've learned is that often the two people in a relationship don't view it in the same way.
• 1:00
  Mary: For example, I will often ask couples to rate their relationship satisfaction on a scale of 1 to 10.
• 1:06
  Mary: I can't tell you how often their ratings don't match.
• 1:09
  Mary: In fact, they can be vastly different.
• 1:12
  Mary: Also, they often don't match what I imagine they will be.
• 1:16
  Mary: For example, one couple who seems to be headed to splitzville, giving their relationship a high satisfaction rating.
• 1:23
  Mary: However, now that I'm more experienced, I have zero expectations because I know that a relationship is made up of two distinct individuals with their own histories and their own tolerance for conflict, intimacy, and uncertainty.
• 1:35
  Mary: People often make the mistake of thinking that anyone working in the mental health field must have amazingly healthy relationships.
• 1:42
  Mary: The health of relationships, however, is determined by the health of the individuals in it, their unique needs, traumas, etc.
• 1:49
  Mary: And as a former people pleaser, I have stayed in a few relationships way too long.
• 1:54
  Mary: In one case, we were engaged in making future plans.
• 1:58
  Mary: I got the strong need to get out.
• 2:00
  Mary: I felt it, but I didn't get out until two years later, after a lot of conflict and wasted money.
• 2:07
  Mary: And after the relationship ended, several people close to me told me they never really thought we were a good match.
• 2:13
  Mary: Turns out people are much more willing to be honest when their opinion is accurate, and giving it can now be seen as support versus challenging the suitability of someone's partner.
• 2:23
  Mary: My guest today has been there.
• 2:25
  Mary: Dr.
• 2:25
  Mary: Meredith Thompson is the founder of Partner Lab.
• 2:28
  Mary: A data nerd with a background in psychological research and executive coaching, she launched Partner Lab to empower individuals with the knowledge and skills necessary to live their best lives.
• 2:39
  Mary: Driven by her own experience of ending a long-term dysfunctional relationship and all that comes with it, she uses data-driven insights to help users make informed decisions about their relationships, whether that's taking steps to strengthen them or bring them to a mindful and safe end.
• 2:55
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violet's Meredith.
• 2:58
  Mary: Thank you so much, Mary.
• 2:59
  Mary: It's such a pleasure to be here.
• 3:01
  Mary: So I always have guests start with telling me about flashbulb moments.
• 3:06
  Mary: So those times in life that kind of stand out in bold relief that you might look back on and say, these were the situations or events that led me to where I am now and kind of informed the work that you do.
• 3:20
  Mary: So I know there's a big one, but what do you what were some of those flashballboments for you?
• 3:25
  Merideth: I think the biggest flashbulb moment was I was driving down I-15 in Salt Lake City.
• 3:31
  Merideth: I can't tell you what podcast I was listening to, but it was just, you know, smart and they had great experts on there.
• 3:37
  Merideth: And I had this moment after I had been out of my first marriage for about four years.
• 3:45
  Merideth: And, you know, in some ways still processing what happened and why and why didn't I see X, Y, and Z.
• 3:51
  Merideth: But I just had a moment where I was like, I have got access to all this research because I'm uh a research professor at a university.
• 3:59
  Merideth: I not only have access to a lot of the paywalled, you know, articles, uh scholarly articles, but I can interpret them, even if they're outside of my field, at least to a point, maybe not physics.
• 4:09
  Merideth: Um and I wish I had known when I was stuck in relationship ambivalence or limbo in my first marriage for like 10 or 12 years too long.
• 4:21
  Merideth: I wish I had known what the research said.
• 4:23
  Merideth: And I just had this moment where I thought, okay, others need to have access to this and in a way that's like actionable.
• 4:31
  Merideth: You know, you can read, maybe people can read the abstract on a, as I as I call them boring relationship science articles, but that doesn't mean it you can interpret it or like translate it into behavior.
• 4:43
  Merideth: And so that's really what I got excited about because I don't want anybody else to have to spend, you know, years, and in my case, at least a decade too long in a relationship that was, I know not good for me.
• 4:56
  Merideth: And probably if it wasn't good for me, it wasn't good for my my now co-parent.
• 5:00
  Merideth: So that that kind of led to developing partner lab and really developing the skill, the the tools that where people can take relationship science and apply it to their relationships and get clarity.
• 5:13
  Merideth: That's really what I'm focused on is um helping people get clarity about what's really going on in their relationship and where they have influence and where they don't.
• 5:21
  Merideth: You know, because we can only control ourselves, we can't control our partners.
• 5:25
  Mary: Oh, yes.
• 5:25
  Mary: That's that is so true.
• 5:27
  Mary: We like to wish we could.
• 5:29
  Mary: So I definitely want to explore that.
• 5:32
  Mary: But before we get into that part of it, the whole science-backed, which I think is a little bit flying in the face of what we've been told, you know, especially as young women, like, oh, it's it's all about love.
• 5:43
  Mary: And if you love someone, it's gonna work out.
• 5:45
  Mary: So before we talk about the science, you know, versus this idea, what do you think kept you stuck so long?
• 5:52
  Mary: Because 10 to 12 years is a long time to feel ambivalence.
• 5:56
  Mary: Sure, sure.
• 5:58
  Merideth: I don't think at that point when I was stuck there that I recognized it was ambivalent.
• 6:02
  Merideth: I just knew I was, from my perspective, I was working my butt off to try and make things better.
• 6:07
  Merideth: And I thought, well, if I do this, then he'll do that or he'll stop doing that.
• 6:11
  Merideth: I really stayed stuck because um I grew up in a very and spent more than half my life in a rather high demand religion.
• 6:19
  Merideth: And and the the uh kind of verbiage around that is, you know, if you want to be a good mother, you have to stay, stay in the marriage.
• 6:27
  Merideth: Um, if you divorce, um, you destroy your children.
• 6:30
  Merideth: I had been uh the child of divorce, my parents split when I was nine, and um it was very bitter and it stayed bitter for a very long time.
• 6:38
  Merideth: And I was like, oh, I know what that looks like.
• 6:40
  Merideth: I don't want that.
• 6:42
  Merideth: Um and I didn't really have a perspective that it could be different.
• 6:45
  Merideth: That you know, um yes, that I think that it can just be more intentional.
• 6:51
  Merideth: We know a lot more now than my parents did, you know, 40 years ago, um, about what helps children adjust after divorce.
• 6:59
  Merideth: And so I really stayed because I thought that was what was best for my children.
• 7:05
  Merideth: And I think there's still a lot of, unfortunately, a lot of shame around divorce, especially in more conservative or religious cultures.
• 7:13
  Merideth: And I just I had a moment actually standing in the middle of the kitchen in what I now look back on as the stupidly big house and thought, oh my goodness, like my children, I realized we're probably learning relationship dynamics that were super harmful.
• 7:33
  Merideth: And in a particular, I recognize like I I don't want them thinking it's okay for them to treat a partner this way or for a partner to treat them this way.
• 7:42
  Merideth: So it really was that that flashbowl moment where it's like, oh, wait, actually staying might be more harmful than leaving.
• 7:52
  Merideth: Um, and now they get to see me um being in a really great relationship where I get to be my full self and and don't have to shrink.
• 8:01
  Merideth: And um, I wish I'd done it.
• 8:03
  Merideth: Like if I feel any guilt from my first marriage or the divorce, it's that I didn't leave sooner because I wonder how if I'd left sooner, if my children would have been less impacted by things.
• 8:16
  Mary: Yeah, I hear so often that that's a worry.
• 8:19
  Mary: What is it going to do for the children?
• 8:21
  Mary: But the children often have a sense of unease or a sense of like this isn't this doesn't feel comfortable.
• 8:28
  Mary: I don't think they can name it, especially before a certain age.
• 8:32
  Mary: But that idea of it's almost like that becomes an excuse in a way, because to end a relationship is like I think about you know the Bugs Bunny cartoons where Wally E.
• 8:43
  Mary: Coyote like pushes the thing down and ex and and set you know, sets off the dynamite.
• 8:48
  Mary: That really is ending a relationship is you know you're gonna be basically blowing up part of your life.
• 8:53
  Mary: So it's interesting, yeah, that that idea of when we can move through it in a healthy way, the children tend to really adjust to that in and their their lives become more grounded a lot of times.
• 9:09
  Merideth: Absolutely.
• 9:10
  Merideth: Yes, I I think when I look back, I was a much better mother the the four and five years and after my divorce that my youngest child was still home than I had been a few years before that, because yeah, it it it was transformative.
• 9:24
  Merideth: You know, the early days were hard, the transition is hard and it's hard on them in particular, but having two healthy parents that are separate, so much, I think, more important and impactful than having two parents in the same home that are kind of miserable.
• 9:39
  Merideth: Because yeah, even if children can't name it, they they sense it for sure.
• 9:44
  Mary: Yeah.
• 9:44
  Mary: And you talked about this idea of ambivalence.
• 9:47
  Mary: And I is that's something that's really interesting to me because I think in a in a salvageable sounds a little hopeless, but in a relationship that has a foundation that can be shored up and the relationship can be um, there can be work done, ways to become healthier, um, there can still be ambivalence, right?
• 10:12
  Mary: Because you are when things aren't great or you've drifted apart or you haven't given the relationship the attention it should have, you can feel individually unhappy.
• 10:21
  Mary: And it can be like, should I really be here?
• 10:23
  Mary: So, how does someone know?
• 10:25
  Mary: Well, first of all, can you give us an idea when you say ambivalence, what does that mean in your work?
• 10:30
  Mary: And how might somebody know whether this is just unrest that can be tended to, or it's a sign that somebody really needs to think about moving on?
• 10:42
  Merideth: Great questions.
• 10:43
  Merideth: So ambivalence, uh, I think the easiest way I think about it, it's when someone has like one foot in the relationship and one foot out of the relationship.
• 10:51
  Merideth: So, you know, they can they say, oh, well, this stuff over here is good, but this stuff over here is really not good.
• 10:56
  Merideth: And so they kind of they do this.
• 10:58
  Merideth: I think it was a tug-of-war in our brains, like, should I stay in?
• 11:01
  Merideth: Should I stay out?
• 11:02
  Merideth: So there's this constant kind of tension within the individual.
• 11:06
  Merideth: And one thing uh research, I think it was just from last year from Emotion, um, the journal called Emotion found that even for the person who's not ambivalent in a relationship, they perceive the other partner's ambivalence and it undermines their well-being and of course the well-being of the relationship.
• 11:25
  Merideth: So you don't even have to be the one experiencing the ambivalence for it to be a problem.
• 11:29
  Merideth: So it's that, yeah, one foot in, one foot out.
• 11:32
  Merideth: Do I want to stay here?
• 11:33
  Merideth: Do I want to go?
• 11:34
  Merideth: I think of it as being stuck, or also I call it relationship limbo, because sometimes that's easier to connect with.
• 11:40
  Merideth: You know, I think you kind of alluded to the way I think about it is looking at the relationship and determining what capacity is there for change.
• 11:51
  Merideth: And you know, some things in a relationship are fixable and then others are just deal breakers.
• 11:57
  Merideth: And, you know, I think the the deal breakers are any sort of abusive or controlling behaviors and a lack of trust.
• 12:05
  Merideth: You know, there will be trust breaches now and then, but if they're kind of continual or they don't ever really get prepared, it's really hard to come back from that.
• 12:15
  Merideth: And I I I would also say that when people have the longer someone is in ambivalence, um, that's a big piece of data.
• 12:24
  Merideth: I I look at all things with relationship as like it's information, it's data.
• 12:28
  Merideth: If you if you feel like you're stuck in ambivalence, that's not a character flaw.
• 12:32
  Merideth: It's information.
• 12:33
  Merideth: Information that you kind of step, take a step back and um consider what does that what is that information telling you about the relationship?
• 12:43
  Mary: Yeah.
• 12:43
  Mary: So do you remember for you when you it's I know it's a it's sort of a continuum, but do you remember when you were like, I have to move towards ending this or saying something, or do you remember, was there a catalyst, or did it just kind of get there in your mind at some point?
• 13:01
  Mary: Like you just kind of had the realization.
• 13:05
  Merideth: You know, I I think my body knew um 10 years before I actually stepped away.
• 13:13
  Merideth: And I, my my brain, my mind was just not ready to accept it.
• 13:17
  Merideth: Actually, there was one time I will tell you that it just it I wept.
• 13:22
  Merideth: I was at a conference, I had tried to leave two or three months before, and you know, it I backtracked.
• 13:31
  Merideth: And I was at a conference in Portland and I was getting on a ready to get on a uh leave my hotel to get on a flight back home.
• 13:40
  Merideth: And I had ordered um Thai food the night before and didn't finish it, and so I tucked it into my um refrigerator in the hotel, and then I was like, ooh, I'm not gonna let that go to waste.
• 13:51
  Merideth: So I got it out, warmed it up in my hotel room.
• 13:54
  Merideth: I sat down to eat it, and my stomach was just in knots.
• 13:57
  Merideth: I did not want to go home.
• 13:59
  Merideth: And I could I sat there and I was like, I love, like, love, love, love Thai food.
• 14:03
  Merideth: I couldn't even eat a bite.
• 14:05
  Merideth: It I and so that was like, you know, my body and my mind saying, okay, it's time for you to pay attention.
• 14:10
  Merideth: And then about two months later, I finally ended things with finality.
• 14:17
  Merideth: But that moment where it's like, if you can't eat because you're dreading going home.
• 14:22
  Merideth: You know, I wanted to see my boys, yeah.
• 14:24
  Merideth: But if I could have actually imported them to Portland after the conference and we just hung out there, that's totally what I would have done.
• 14:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 14:33
  Mary: Well, one thing I've noticed that you've been saying and that I saw when I did a little research on your website is you're talking a lot about data, data, data, data.
• 14:42
  Mary: And so I think, again, as what I alluded to before, we often think about relationships, romantic relationships, as they should be passionate.
• 14:51
  Mary: And if there's ever a speed bump or we drift apart, it either means we're not trying hard enough or we don't belong together.
• 15:00
  Mary: We have these really flowery ideas of what a healthy relationship is, but you talk much more about it's almost business terms, negotiation and those data type terms.
• 15:14
  Mary: So tell me a little bit about how you use that approach.
• 15:19
  Mary: So um how would you apply that when a couple comes to you?
• 15:23
  Mary: Is there like a place you start typically, or what does that look like?
• 15:28
  Merideth: Great question.
• 15:29
  Merideth: Um, I tend to work one-on-one with people rather than like with couples.
• 15:33
  Merideth: So that just a little context there.
• 15:35
  Merideth: Um one of the things we usually start with is some sort of assessment.
• 15:40
  Merideth: And um, for instance, um, we have like a 24 relationship factor assessment that kind of looks at the good stuff and the bad stuff and where their strengths are and where their weaknesses are, and really having a conversation about in organizational behavior, which is my area of expertise, we call it sense making.
• 15:58
  Merideth: So diving into all of those 24 and kind of what does that say about kind of the um the viability and the shape of the relationship?
• 16:08
  Merideth: That's really we so we take kind of a, you know, it's a health, it's an impact on our health, our relationships.
• 16:15
  Merideth: And people that are in really great ones, they have a longer health span and lifespan.
• 16:19
  Merideth: And those who are not, like you're taking years off your life.
• 16:22
  Merideth: And so um we we tend to dig into those relationship factors to kind of look at how they're shaping the relationship, the health in it.
• 16:32
  Merideth: Um, that's where I bring in the relationship science.
• 16:34
  Merideth: You know, a lot of people think the most important part of a relationship that leads to happiness and health is communication, right?
• 16:41
  Merideth: It's got to be communication.
• 16:43
  Merideth: That plays a factor, but it's not one of the top five.
• 16:46
  Merideth: And so, really, part of it is educating our client about what actually is most important because you know, we can spend a lot of time and energy trying to make a situation or a relationship better, and we're just like spinning our wheels.
• 17:02
  Merideth: And then that just keeps us to more stuff.
• 17:03
  Merideth: You're like, oh, I've invested all this time and energy, and it's not doing anything like, okay, well, I'm gonna go try something else, and we keep trying and trying and um without that clarity of knowing, okay, what is the current state of affairs in the relationship?
• 17:18
  Merideth: And what does that mean for my next steps?
• 17:22
  Mary: Okay.
• 17:22
  Mary: So I would have told you communication in my own relationship is nearly at the top of what makes it successful.
• 17:30
  Mary: But you're talking about five other things.
• 17:32
  Mary: What are other things people need to consider in the health of a relationship?
• 17:36
  Merideth: Yes, yes.
• 17:37
  Merideth: So this is based on um decades of research, thousands of couples that um they looked at about three years ago.
• 17:45
  Merideth: And so it's do we perceive our partner is committed?
• 17:50
  Merideth: Like, what's our perception about our partner?
• 17:52
  Merideth: Not our necessarily our own commitment, do we think our partner is committed?
• 17:55
  Merideth: Um we think our partner is satisfied broadly in the relationship.
• 18:00
  Merideth: Um, and that's something that you know, I think a lot of us rume on a lot.
• 18:05
  Merideth: Like if something feels off, we're like, are they okay?
• 18:08
  Merideth: What's wrong?
• 18:09
  Merideth: And you know, it it's a major issue.
• 18:12
  Merideth: Um our own sexual satisfaction is in the top five.
• 18:17
  Merideth: And I tend to think about sexual satisfaction as kind of like the glue in relationships, you know, um keeping the couple close, it's great stressful labor when the rest of life gets messy or super stressful.
• 18:29
  Merideth: Um our partner's responsiveness.
• 18:32
  Merideth: So the Gottmans talk about it as like bids for attention.
• 18:35
  Merideth: So our when we ask our partner something about their day or share something, you know, if they have their nose buried in their phone, we're not gonna feel like they're very responsive.
• 18:45
  Merideth: And that's that's a big factor as well.
• 18:48
  Merideth: And then other behaviors, especially related to conflict or controlling behaviors.
• 18:55
  Merideth: Um, you know, those how those are how conflict is handled and um the absence of controlling behaviors are super important for health.
• 19:06
  Mary: Okay, that all makes sense.
• 19:08
  Mary: And I noticed before you used one of my favorite words when I talk about relationships, and that is repair.
• 19:14
  Mary: Can you explain what that means?
• 19:17
  Merideth: Yes.
• 19:18
  Merideth: So let's see, I think about repair um as, you know, first before you can actually do any repair, one or both parties, depending on kind of the situation, I would say, have to have a sense that the other party has heard them and understood them.
• 19:38
  Merideth: And so, like when I run a mediation, I do some pro bono mediation.
• 19:43
  Merideth: Before we get to like the repair and the figuring out how are we going to fix the situation, we we're basically in a holding pattern in the mediation of underst of helping each side understand where the other side is coming from.
• 19:58
  Merideth: They don't have to agree with it, but they have both sides have to feel heard and understood.
• 20:02
  Merideth: And so that is the first, to me, the first step in repair is if you try and jump to the repair part, um, you know, uh very pragmatic repair part first, you're gonna frustrate one or both parties.
• 20:17
  Merideth: You need to feel heard and understood first.
• 20:19
  Merideth: And then, you know, understanding what the the harm was.
• 20:23
  Merideth: If there was, again, you don't have to agree, you can just know the other person was really, you know, a lot of times we talk about anger um or being mad.
• 20:31
  Merideth: What I think is a lot more important and helpful, especially in a conflict situation, is understanding that anger is one or two or three of three things.
• 20:41
  Merideth: It's frustration or it's fear, or it is um someone feels hurt.
• 20:50
  Merideth: And so if we can really articulate that, like it was super frustrating to me when I heard you or you did blah blah or it really hurt my feelings, or something along those lines.
• 21:03
  Merideth: So getting more specific than just say, when you when you did X, it it ticked me off.
• 21:08
  Merideth: Okay, well, yeah, that's fine, but let's get specific.
• 21:11
  Merideth: Because once both parties feel heard and understood, then you can shift over to the repair.
• 21:16
  Merideth: So I I think that is the found the essential foundation to repair.
• 21:19
  Merideth: You don't do repair too quickly, you're just gonna keep going.
• 21:22
  Merideth: And as my partner and I call it litigating or relitigating, you know, you're just talking about whatever happened over and over and over again without actually making progress.
• 21:32
  Mary: And I think recognizing the things you're talking about, like the bids for attention.
• 21:36
  Mary: And that can sound if you take it just a bid for attention, it sounds like you're like you're like trying to get someone's attention.
• 21:44
  Mary: You're crazy, it's really connecting, right?
• 21:46
  Mary: A bid to connect somehow.
• 21:48
  Mary: And I think if we can think about that, first of all, that we do get lost in social media, in our phones.
• 21:56
  Mary: I can't tell you how often I see couples out to dinner.
• 21:59
  Mary: And especially if they have a child with them who is also on a screen and the three of them are just sitting there, not connected at all.
• 22:08
  Mary: And so I think thinking about it in terms of that, when you feel a um, like maybe you come home from work and you really are looking forward to talking about your day or hearing about your partner's day, they can be on the phone not realizing they've put a barrier up because they're just doing what most people do.
• 22:28
  Mary: And I think being able to see that as, okay, there's something that I want right now, it doesn't necessarily mean my partner doesn't care about that.
• 22:36
  Mary: But having that shared language between the two of you that, oh, I'm making a bid for attention, or I want to connect with you right now, however you want to say it, and and both understanding what is happening, because I think often we can see that and be like, oh, they don't care, or and then we just turn away.
• 22:55
  Mary: We stop.
• 22:56
  Mary: We stop trying.
• 22:57
  Mary: So I think understanding that first, that idea that we want to connect.
• 23:02
  Mary: And so maybe having times where you do put your phone down, you put it, you keep it away if you go out to dinner.
• 23:08
  Mary: I think the that part of a relationship is really important.
• 23:12
  Merideth: Oh, absolutely.
• 23:13
  Merideth: That connection, I mean, that's that's what sustains us as we as we get older, right?
• 23:17
  Merideth: It has the biggest impact on our health.
• 23:19
  Merideth: And especially when it's the most important person probably in our world, we want that connection and to know that it's reliable and that they are accessible and that they're going to engage with them when we make make that bid for attention or or yeah, try and engage them for sure.
• 23:36
  Mary: Yeah.
• 23:37
  Mary: And then the repair part I also love too, because sometimes some something can be said and we feel that anger.
• 23:45
  Mary: And I also love that you pointed out that usually anger is coming from an emotion that is much softer and more painful because we don't want to feel hurt.
• 23:54
  Mary: Anger is anger's power and hot.
• 23:57
  Mary: And we like that.
• 23:58
  Mary: Hurt is really searing and sad.
• 24:02
  Mary: And so a lot of times, yes, there's another emotion underneath.
• 24:07
  Mary: So being aware of that, I think is important.
• 24:09
  Mary: And then also being open that if our partner did potentially ignore us, they were on their phone and they realize it, allow them to repair that.
• 24:19
  Mary: When they lean back toward you, be you can communicate and say how it felt.
• 24:24
  Mary: But I think being receptive to that, that to me is really important also.
• 24:29
  Merideth: Absolutely.
• 24:30
  Merideth: Yes.
• 24:30
  Merideth: You've got you've got to give them a way kind of back in to like reconnect.
• 24:34
  Merideth: If yeah, because I I think about when, yes, there is the the hurt, the frustration, um, fear, anger, whatever you want to call it, like it's it's a rupture in the relationship, it's a rupture in the connection.
• 24:47
  Merideth: And so giving your your partner that opportunity to kind of to reconnect and and fix the rupture.
• 24:55
  Merideth: Then yeah, if you walk off and say, well, you know, never mind, you you'd rather pay attention to your phone than me, like you're just encouraging that rupture, you know, you've got to give them a pathway back.
• 25:05
  Merideth: For sure.
• 25:06
  Mary: Yeah.
• 25:07
  Mary: And so what then happens, I think, is people move closer and closer to their own corner.
• 25:12
  Mary: They sort of, it's almost like they have a plate and they're adding this next thing and this next thing to the plate.
• 25:17
  Mary: Here's another thing that happened.
• 25:18
  Mary: Here's another thing that happened.
• 25:20
  Mary: So once they're to the point where they realize, wait a minute, we might have misinterpreted, we've moved away, we haven't repaired.
• 25:28
  Mary: Then what do you feel like is the role of compromise?
• 25:33
  Mary: Because I have different feelings about, I don't know that I love the word compromise.
• 25:38
  Mary: I think it makes it feel like everything should always come out even or be 50-50.
• 25:43
  Mary: What's your what's your feeling about that?
• 25:46
  Merideth: Actually, I I I wouldn't say that I'm a big anti-compromise person, but I think we jumped to that too quickly, especially when you're talking about conflict or negotiation.
• 25:55
  Merideth: So, you know, compromise generally means meeting in the middle.
• 26:00
  Merideth: And uh especially if you're talking about anything quantitative and but also sometimes more touchy-feely, meeting in the middle is not always the best way to go.
• 26:11
  Merideth: And so the example that I use is super simple, that I think helps drive home the difference between compromise and actually making sure everyone gets their needs met as much as humanly possible.
• 26:24
  Merideth: Is let's say we have an orange and the husband says, Oh, I need that orange, and the wife is like, No, I need the orange.
• 26:30
  Merideth: Well, what compromise would say is we're gonna meet in the middle and we're gonna cut that orange in half.
• 26:35
  Merideth: Taking a more interest understanding needs and getting underneath, like, well, what makes you need the orange?
• 26:42
  Merideth: How are you gonna use the orange?
• 26:44
  Merideth: What's it for?
• 26:45
  Merideth: We learn that the husband wants the orange because he's gonna make some um granite orange scones and he needs the um the outside appeal for zest.
• 26:55
  Merideth: Yes.
• 26:55
  Merideth: And the wife is like, well, I'm thirsty.
• 26:58
  Merideth: I just wanted some orange juice.
• 26:59
  Merideth: But if they don't connect and talk about like what actually the underlying need is or desire that they're trying to meet, then they cut the orange in half and both of them leave less happy than they could have, right?
• 27:12
  Merideth: As opposed to really understand what's going on underneath.
• 27:15
  Merideth: And then he gets the peel and she gets the inside, and everybody is getting their needs met as fully as possible.
• 27:22
  Merideth: And so, yes, I I tend to say, uh, like, you know, we're told when we're five and on the playground or whatever, you're supposed to compromise.
• 27:30
  Merideth: Compromise is good.
• 27:31
  Merideth: But I think we we lean on that too much without recognizing that a lot of times what that means is meeting in the middle, and meeting in the middle is not always as beneficial as really figuring out what's going on and then finding creative ways of helping each side get more of what they want.
• 27:47
  Mary: Yeah.
• 27:48
  Mary: So I think the hard thing, I'm gonna bring us back to communication.
• 27:51
  Mary: So I think the hard thing is we could start to delve into this and understand how do you then facilitate, help people facilitate either uh communicating in a conflict or negotiating.
• 28:06
  Mary: How do you do that?
• 28:07
  Mary: Because I think that is one of the hardest things is to help people, once they understand, okay, I think we have a good foundation here.
• 28:16
  Mary: And the quite the five questions that you have them answer, it's like, okay, I think there's some, you know, we've just drifted apart, whatever has happened.
• 28:23
  Mary: How do you then bring that around and help facilitate communication?
• 28:28
  Merideth: Oh, that's a great question.
• 28:30
  Merideth: And I would say a complicated question.
• 28:32
  Merideth: You know, what I usually start with um and use with all of our clients is what we call the the clarity matrix.
• 28:40
  Merideth: And so being a pointy-headed academic researcher, I love two by twos.
• 28:45
  Merideth: And so this two by two is kind of the framework that we bring to kind of looking at the relationship, what's going well, what's not.
• 28:52
  Merideth: And um the axis in the two by two are focused on like what are they bringing to the relationship?
• 29:01
  Merideth: So what where do they have influence?
• 29:03
  Merideth: Where do they have control?
• 29:04
  Merideth: And that's over their own behavior.
• 29:06
  Merideth: And then the other half is like where they don't have a lot of control, maybe even not a lot of influence.
• 29:12
  Merideth: It's their partner's behavior.
• 29:13
  Merideth: And then the the two um other sides are what's going on that's harmful, and then what's going on that's helpful.
• 29:20
  Merideth: And so we start with looking at what are their deal breakers.
• 29:26
  Merideth: So, like, what behavior will you absolutely not tolerate?
• 29:29
  Merideth: And there should be like some overlap between a lot of people, you know, I would say abusive or controlling behavior, like that's a deal breaker, but other people have others.
• 29:39
  Merideth: Um, and then so understanding what those are and then shifting.
• 29:43
  Merideth: So that's the negative stuff that they don't have a lot of control over.
• 29:46
  Merideth: And then from there we shift over to looking at where what are their needs and expectations?
• 29:51
  Merideth: Because I think especially, you know, you're talking about passion and romance.
• 29:54
  Merideth: We just think, well, my partner should just know what I want and know what I need.
• 29:59
  Merideth: And, you know, we change and they change.
• 30:02
  Merideth: And expecting somebody to read your minds to me is profoundly unfair and it's just not helpful.
• 30:08
  Merideth: And so helping the client understand, okay, what do I need out of this relationship?
• 30:13
  Merideth: Um, what do I expect?
• 30:15
  Merideth: And then equip them to have a conversation with their partner about what those are.
• 30:20
  Merideth: But um we talk about this in negotiation as well.
• 30:24
  Merideth: You know, we want to be very specific about what our needs are, but then be very flexible in how our partner meets those needs.
• 30:32
  Mary: Okay.
• 30:33
  Merideth: So, you know, this is what I need to feel in our relationship, this is what I need to experience.
• 30:39
  Merideth: And, you know, that could mean a lot of be met with a lot of different behaviors.
• 30:44
  Merideth: And maybe our partner can't engage in all those behaviors, but they might be able to say, well, like, you know, I can't do A to make you feel this way or help you feel this way, but I could do B.
• 30:53
  Merideth: What do you think about that?
• 30:54
  Merideth: And then, you know, it is a bit of negotiation.
• 30:57
  Merideth: Um, so really focusing then on what they what they need, how to express that, and then reciprocate for their partner, right?
• 31:05
  Merideth: It should go both ways.
• 31:06
  Merideth: What are our part, what are the what does their partner need that maybe they're not getting their needs met?
• 31:10
  Merideth: And a lot of times that can also uncover um needs that can't be met in that relationship.
• 31:16
  Merideth: I mean, I'm sure you see it all the time.
• 31:18
  Merideth: Clients are like, my partner has to be my everything, and like, oh my gosh, that's way too much pressure.
• 31:24
  Merideth: Yeah.
• 31:24
  Merideth: And so, you know, understanding needs they may have that are not gonna get met in that relationship.
• 31:28
  Merideth: And so then it's their responsibility that they get to go find, figure out how to get those needs met elsewhere.
• 31:35
  Merideth: It's, you know, it might be at work, it might be with friends, it might be with other family.
• 31:39
  Merideth: So that's kind of our approach to kind of facilitating some of that communication.
• 31:44
  Merideth: And there are various scripts that we also offer clients because sometimes that's the hard part, right?
• 31:48
  Merideth: You're like, okay, I know what I want or need, but like, how do I say that?
• 31:52
  Merideth: What does that sound like?
• 31:53
  Merideth: And so scripts that help them um feel more prepared and confident as they go into those conversations.
• 32:00
  Mary: Yeah.
• 32:01
  Mary: And I love that matrix because I know that's on your website.
• 32:04
  Mary: So people can actually go and you have um some examples so they can actually think about it from their perspective.
• 32:12
  Mary: Right.
• 32:12
  Mary: And and sort of put those different feelings or situations into that for themselves.
• 32:18
  Mary: And I think it it always helps to have a framework, I think, because relationships are usually so emotionally laden.
• 32:26
  Mary: And so, yeah, it sounds like your approach, that's part of it, is let's make it a little bit more clinical or like you are saying, data driven, because here's what we know.
• 32:38
  Mary: And it can take away some of that so much accumulated emotion.
• 32:43
  Mary: And it's almost like you would maybe work with someone in your career, in your business, like let's negotiate.
• 32:50
  Mary: So when we talk about negotiate, that does sound very non-romantic.
• 32:56
  Mary: So are there um misconceptions about that or are there certain mistakes you see people make when they try to enter into a negotiation or resolve some conflicts?
• 33:11
  Merideth: Sure.
• 33:11
  Merideth: Sure, you know, I asked my, I teach both undergrads and graduate students, and on the last day of my class with my undergrads, I asked them, you know, who do you think you're gonna negotiate with the most in your life?
• 33:23
  Merideth: And a lot because of the culture that we're in, I would say maybe half, maybe even more of my students are already married, even as an undergrad.
• 33:31
  Merideth: And so if hands go up and they're like, our spouses, and like, you are exactly right.
• 33:35
  Merideth: And so it's really important that you choose a spouse who you can negotiate with.
• 33:40
  Merideth: And so, you know, I I think for a lot of people, where whether it's in their personal life or their or work life, negotiation has a big heavy feel to it, right?
• 33:50
  Merideth: You're gonna negotiate a job offer or buying a house or selling a car or something like that.
• 33:56
  Merideth: And so, really, I encourage people to take the heaviness out of it and don't even talk about it as negotiation.
• 34:02
  Merideth: Talk about it and think about it as problem solving.
• 34:06
  Merideth: So let's be together.
• 34:08
  Merideth: Um, there's a great book that's super easy to read on negotiation.
• 34:12
  Merideth: It's timeless called Getting to Yes.
• 34:14
  Merideth: And there they talk about being hard on the problem and being soft on the person.
• 34:20
  Merideth: And so I think that's a really good frame for couples when they're like, okay, we have this problem.
• 34:26
  Merideth: It keeps coming up.
• 34:27
  Merideth: And like, I want to figure out how to solve it once and for all.
• 34:30
  Merideth: And so be hard on that problem, be specific about how you can, the various ways you can address it, because your idea of addressing it may not be your partner's, but then yeah, be soft on the partner.
• 34:42
  Merideth: They're if they're if they're willing to show up alongside you to negotiate slash attack that problem, like that's a pretty big deal because there are a lot of partners that wouldn't be willing to do that.
• 34:56
  Mary: And I think thinking in terms of the word partner, you know, I think sometimes we forget that we, when we have a lot of accumulation between us, you know, that's sort of landing in the middle of the relationship, the pile of slights and all of those, you know, missed bids for attention, we can feel like now we're on opposite teams.
• 35:16
  Mary: But I like this idea of getting to yes, of thinking about, okay, we we are truly partners and we both want to be happy.
• 35:22
  Mary: And how do we do that?
• 35:24
  Mary: Maybe in a way that, you know, like you're saying with compromise, it's not necessarily we each get the same number of sections of the orange, but maybe we need different parts from that.
• 35:34
  Mary: And really, it does dovetail in ways that we can make it work really well for both people.
• 35:42
  Mary: So I love that idea.
• 35:43
  Mary: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:45
  Merideth: And I think, you know, one thing that goes along with that is a lot of times in negotiation or conflict resolution, we're really focused on how to solve the problem.
• 35:55
  Merideth: And before we get to like, again, the pragmatics of how do we resolve this issue, getting back to what are the needs I'm trying to get met in this situation?
• 36:05
  Merideth: Because there's almost always some underlying need.
• 36:07
  Merideth: And I would say a lot of times it goes back to some of those needs, a lot of times go back to just Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
• 36:13
  Merideth: You know, it's very fundamental.
• 36:15
  Merideth: I need to feel valued or I need to feel safe.
• 36:17
  Merideth: You know, if you can name the need, your partner, I think, also is gonna have more empathy for you.
• 36:25
  Merideth: So, like, oh, you just you want to be seen as significant.
• 36:29
  Merideth: Oh, well, I I want you to feel significant and let's figure out how to make that happen.
• 36:34
  Merideth: Um, so really understanding we talk about is the interests behind the position.
• 36:40
  Merideth: So our interests are our needs, our positions are kind of how we try and get those needs met or solve that problem.
• 36:48
  Mary: And I really love that because my husband and I use that.
• 36:51
  Mary: It's part of choice theory talks about what are the motivating needs.
• 36:55
  Mary: And so mine is mine are freedom and joy, his is safety and security.
• 36:59
  Mary: We'll talk about being opposite, but I think when you recognize that, you know, we're gonna be buying a house soon.
• 37:06
  Mary: So he's very much about lining up the insurance.
• 37:10
  Mary: And I'm like looking at what color are we gonna paint the bedroom, you know.
• 37:13
  Mary: I so I think it's not we don't care about that other part of the process, but you can see it as complementary, you know, because really it's kind of like that orange thing.
• 37:24
  Mary: Like we're covering all the bases, we just come at it in a different way.
• 37:28
  Mary: So I really like thinking about it that way.
• 37:30
  Merideth: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:31
  Merideth: And thinking about that, I think it needs, I think, you know, fundamentally at a human level, we all have very similar needs, but those needs kind of have different priorities.
• 37:41
  Merideth: And so you and your partner probably have similar needs, but for you, Joy is like way up there, and for him, security is.
• 37:48
  Merideth: And so understanding like how the priorities um prioritization of those needs might be different, like and give you a lot of insight and then a lot of more understanding for your partner, and that definitely makes the world a better place.
• 38:01
  Mary: Yeah.
• 38:02
  Mary: So I'm gonna give you a little scenario because I know what happened.
• 38:08
  Mary: I know what happens not only as a therapist, but as someone who hears from listeners that I will have great guests, like you're giving great information, but they feel so mired in their own situation, they don't know where to start.
• 38:21
  Mary: So let's say you're and you work at a college, which I used to do, was my favorite job ever.
• 38:27
  Mary: So let's say you're in office hours, this this young woman shows up and she's engaged and she says to you, I am feeling so much back and forth.
• 38:38
  Mary: I'm not sure if I should be in this relationship.
• 38:40
  Mary: I really don't know where to start.
• 38:42
  Mary: What are some questions you would start with for her?
• 38:45
  Mary: So people can maybe reflect on these same things.
• 38:48
  Mary: Oh, that is a great question.
• 38:51
  Merideth: Um, I think it's the same, same question.
• 38:55
  Merideth: I my inclination is that somebody who's engaged, to be frank, like they're not a lot of times not even willing to ask the questions, is this right for me or not?
• 39:04
  Merideth: Because there's just so much other social pressure that comes along with that.
• 39:07
  Merideth: I think some of the questions I would ask her is I think I would start with, how long have you felt this way?
• 39:15
  Merideth: You know, some I think for some people, especially if they're getting married soon, the closer it gets, it's they're like, oh, this is a big decision.
• 39:22
  Merideth: And you know, if if um attachment style and they're they're more avoidant, that could be triggering their attachment attachment style.
• 39:31
  Merideth: Um, how long have you felt this way?
• 39:33
  Merideth: And then, you know, if it's has if it's been a year or two or you know, a really long time, like that's something to pay attention to.
• 39:41
  Merideth: So I think time and then I the thing I I know I ignored, and I think a lot of people do, and I'll say I think women in particular are socialized to ignore what our bodies are telling us because our bodies will tell us like this person isn't safe, but you know, as a woman, you're not supposed to think that like we're supposed to be very nurturing and accepting and and not think badly about anybody.
• 40:04
  Merideth: And so I would ask, like, when was the last time you had you know a meaningful interaction with your fiance?
• 40:12
  Merideth: How did your body feel?
• 40:14
  Merideth: Or when you left the conversation, did you feel relaxed?
• 40:19
  Merideth: Um, and actually, I generally I probably wouldn't wouldn't um propose words like what did you feel and where did you feel it in your body?
• 40:28
  Merideth: And was it like, oh, I felt really good because you know, X, Y, or Z?
• 40:32
  Merideth: Okay, that's data.
• 40:34
  Merideth: And that's what I always come back to.
• 40:36
  Merideth: Like being stuck in ambivalence is not a character flaw, it's data.
• 40:40
  Merideth: And so asking them, like, yeah, do that body scan and think about even this week, I tend to think in these situations, especially one where, you know, a student um is getting married and is having doubts, you know, calling off a wedding is a at that, especially if you're in your 20s, that's a big freaking deal.
• 41:02
  Merideth: It's scary.
• 41:03
  Merideth: And not to mention it's even scarier when you've been married or have kids, but um, you know, thinking about how they feel coming out of a situation like that and um or an interaction, you know, where do they feel it?
• 41:18
  Merideth: And that that's usually where I start.
• 41:20
  Merideth: How long they felt that way, where they feel it.
• 41:23
  Merideth: And, you know, I think one it can be a clarifying question is how will you feel in your body?
• 41:30
  Merideth: How will you feel about who you are three years from now if you stay in this relationship?
• 41:34
  Merideth: And I think especially we can get, you know, in that, well, if I do X, it'll make the relationship better or whatever.
• 41:42
  Merideth: And we don't recognize that we're slowly shrinking ourselves.
• 41:46
  Merideth: I know I didn't.
• 41:47
  Merideth: I did not realize until I was my first marriage, like, oh my gosh, I spent so many years, like every year just getting smaller.
• 41:54
  Merideth: And are you gonna be excited and proud of who you are, you know, three years down the road?
• 41:59
  Merideth: Or are you gonna are you gonna be smaller in some form or fashion or more scared or insecure?
• 42:06
  Merideth: Um, so kind of asking them about their future self, what will your future self look like?
• 42:11
  Mary: Yeah.
• 42:12
  Mary: Well, and a really important part of that, I think, and you've said it a couple of times, and I think just this time was like, oh yeah, I really like that, is that um we can get so mired up in I have to make a decision, I have to figure this out, that if we can think about it as, wait a minute, I'm just gathering information.
• 42:29
  Mary: It takes that emotion out of it that you have to arrive at a decision and more where you can be curious.
• 42:36
  Mary: I mean, like, as you said, like what's my body feel like?
• 42:39
  Mary: And where am I, if I think about the future, what might that look like?
• 42:44
  Mary: So I think that can also help a lot because we do sort of get into this idea of I have to know, I have to figure it out.
• 42:51
  Mary: And it's like, well, let's think about, you know, what are what's the data?
• 42:55
  Mary: We'll bring it back to data.
• 42:56
  Mary: What data do you have?
• 42:58
  Mary: And I think it can also be empowering because then it's not just, oh, I don't feel like this is right, but it's like, oh, well, here, here's the supporting evidence that I should go this way or that way.
• 43:09
  Mary: And I think that also can be empowering in itself.
• 43:13
  Mary: Yes, absolutely.
• 43:14
  Merideth: It's kind of I haven't talked about it this way with any clients, but um helping them kind of put on their relationship scientist hat.
• 43:22
  Merideth: And so it's not judging themselves, it's not judging their partner, it is just having their radar up for data, whether it's falls more in the maybe let's call this off column or in the actually, this is pretty good.
• 43:37
  Merideth: And this is just, you know, nerves.
• 43:39
  Merideth: One, I will say one self imposed clarifying question I had was kind of after I started to bring my first marriage to a close, came from my spouse at the time when he recognized that I was like really done.
• 43:54
  Merideth: He said, You're never gonna find someone who loves you as much as I do.
• 43:57
  Merideth: And in that moment, I thought.
• 43:59
  Merideth: Oh my gosh, I would rather be in no relationship the rest of my life than stay in this one.
• 44:05
  Merideth: And so for me, that was clarifying.
• 44:06
  Merideth: Like for me, it wasn't a question, but um I think that can be a question, especially if pe if people are just really, really deeply unhappy and have been there for a long time.
• 44:16
  Merideth: Like, would you rather stay in this relationship or would you rather potentially be alone for the rest of your life?
• 44:24
  Merideth: And you know, if you can stay, like, wow, that is a big piece of data in a heavy data.
• 44:30
  Merideth: So yes, thinking about the alternatives, because I think two people often focus on the end of a relationship.
• 44:35
  Merideth: You know, in some ways you are blowing up your life, but I think we over we can over-dramatize that and say, I mean, my life is just my career, my happiness has just accelerated since my divorce.
• 44:49
  Merideth: And I don't live in a stupidly big house anymore.
• 44:51
  Merideth: I live in 1,500 square feet, and I can't tell you how happy I am.
• 44:56
  Merideth: Because things can look, you know, happy from the outside of a relationship, um, as mine did.
• 45:03
  Merideth: And then um, but you don't you don't know what's going on inside of that.
• 45:08
  Merideth: And so, you know, this youngster who comes to my office looking for for counsel, everything's probably looking great on the outside, right?
• 45:17
  Merideth: She has a diamond ring on her finger and they're making plans.
• 45:20
  Merideth: But if something feels off, we should trust that.
• 45:23
  Merideth: And I think too often women are socialized not to trust that.
• 45:27
  Mary: Well, and to also bring back in one of the things that you talked about, which is shame.
• 45:32
  Mary: And I think it's interesting that, you know, we have this idea when we think about words like negotiation versus love, you know, we think, oh, well, if if this isn't working, I've failed.
• 45:44
  Mary: And do you get behind the wheel of a car the first time and know it's how to drive it?
• 45:49
  Mary: You know, I think it's when we talk we're talking about these skills of a relationship, which is what you seem to really be talking about.
• 45:55
  Mary: Let's quantify a lot of what is happening, that power that you get from that.
• 46:01
  Mary: It's it's teaching you about yourself and about what you need.
• 46:04
  Mary: And I think too often when something doesn't work with a relationship, we just get this sense of like, I've failed.
• 46:12
  Mary: Like, how could I?
• 46:13
  Mary: And and also I heard you even say it like the woman tends to take the responsibility for those soft skills, like working it out and giving in and making sure everything is, you know, soft and nice.
• 46:26
  Mary: And so I think when something doesn't work, that is not a failure.
• 46:30
  Mary: Again, that's more information because we've been kind of fed this line that love's gonna solve everything.
• 46:38
  Mary: And you don't to you have to learn to be a good partner the same way you learn everything else.
• 46:45
  Mary: So having that grace to say, okay, well, this didn't work out.
• 46:50
  Mary: Let me try again if that is someone's choice.
• 46:53
  Merideth: Yes, yes.
• 46:54
  Merideth: Yeah, I think that's that shame um aspect and guilt over children, if there are any in the relationship.
• 47:01
  Merideth: I think those are the two biggest things that keep people from ending a relationship that should probably end.
• 47:07
  Merideth: And two, they they don't want to feel like a failure.
• 47:09
  Merideth: And that's one thing um I talk with clients and friends about a lot.
• 47:13
  Merideth: Like your relationship can fail.
• 47:16
  Merideth: It doesn't mean you're a failure.
• 47:18
  Merideth: Um, and I think for a lot of people, those are kind of mixed up together.
• 47:23
  Merideth: And um, there is unfortunately still a lot of shame with ending a relationship.
• 47:28
  Merideth: For sure.
• 47:29
  Mary: Well, I think you are helping with that.
• 47:31
  Mary: And I really enjoyed our conversation today.
• 47:34
  Mary: So before I end, can you review quickly what you can do, what you offer, where people can find you?
• 47:40
  Mary: And then I'm gonna put all your info in the show notes.
• 47:43
  Mary: Sure.
• 47:44
  Merideth: You can find us at www.mypartnerlab.co.
• 47:48
  Merideth: And we offer a number of free tools.
• 47:53
  Merideth: We also have several assessments.
• 47:55
  Merideth: Um, one that should be rolling out very shortly that is a research-based uh tool that helps people decide whether they should stay in their relationship or go, or maybe stay, but with conditions.
• 48:09
  Merideth: That's the thing we get asked over and over and over again is I want a tool based on research that says whether I should stay in this relationship or go.
• 48:17
  Merideth: And then we've got the clarity 360, that's a 24 factors of our relationship.
• 48:21
  Merideth: So if somebody wants, feels like, you know, things are going pretty good, but I feel like their areas could should be better, but it's like a feeling, and I'm not really sure what that is.
• 48:29
  Merideth: So the clarity 360 is great for that.
• 48:32
  Merideth: And then we have a super intense program called the Clarity Circle that is uses that clarity matrix and walks people through seven workshops that help them.
• 48:42
  Merideth: Maybe they're thinking about ending it, but you know, I don't know about others, but I just wanted to know I was making the absolute right decision, especially for my children.
• 48:51
  Merideth: I didn't want to regret it.
• 48:52
  Merideth: And so the clarity circle helps people walk step by step and holding their hand through really investigating the relationship and figuring what they need and then what next steps are.
• 49:04
  Mary: Yeah.
• 49:04
  Mary: I love all of that.
• 49:05
  Mary: And I did check out your website.
• 49:07
  Mary: And I would encourage anyone who is in a situation where they are feeling unsure or ambivalent to just comb through some of the stuff on your website because there's a lot of stuff to mine there, and I think it's a good place to start.
• 49:20
  Mary: So thank you for being here, Meredith.
• 49:23
  Mary: This was a great conversation.
• 49:24
  Mary: Thank you so much, Mary.
• 49:26
  Mary: Yes, this is great.
• 49:27
  Mary: Thank you so much for having me.
• 49:28
  Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
• 49:30
  Mary: If you found yourself thinking about a friend or someone from your own life that could benefit from hearing this episode, please forward it to them.
• 49:37
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.