Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 313 - A Heritage Of Nonsense w/ Fred Litwin

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JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 313 - A Heritage Of Nonsense w/ Fred Litwin · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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Speaker 1: Remember like Bob Clark, Rob Clark, Job Gordelli in the
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Speaker 1: Heart of Dallas, Rerigons and faults an tail shadows mysteries
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Speaker 1: and sold but truth is obscured in the.
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Speaker 4: Moose Productions reserve that right now, on with the show.
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Speaker 4: Here's Joe b and the Triple b Hey Andrew Dean
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Speaker 4: House things in Texas.
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Speaker 1: Everything is going to hail down here in Dustice, Jes.
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Speaker 5: Joey, Joey and then drummle Me, Baby Jumbley and Joey
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Speaker 5: Rop Doggy, Joe Ra, trumble Me and Joey, Show.
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Speaker 3: Me and Jimmy Baby Joy and.
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Speaker 2: Joey Rop Docky, Joe Rad Shine, How is Ken and
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Speaker 2: jam Jama.
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Speaker 3: And here we go.
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Speaker 2: And here we go. It's right Joe, what's up? Everybody?
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Speaker 2: Welcome to episode number three hundred and thirteen of The
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Speaker 2: Lone Goming Podcast. This evening, we have a very special
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Speaker 2: guest with US noted author Fred Litwin, author of I
1:56
Speaker 2: Was a teenage JFK conspiracy Freak on the Trailed Delusion,
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Speaker 2: Jim Garrison, The Great Accuser, Oliver Stone's film Flam, The
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Speaker 2: Demagogue of Daily Plaza, and his newest A Heritage of
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Speaker 2: Nonsense Jim Garrison Tales of Mystery and Imagination. So welcome
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Speaker 2: for the fourth time back to the show, Fred Litwin.
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Speaker 3: How you doing, buddy, great, It's great to hear, and
2:20
Speaker 3: thank you for having me. This should be a lot
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Speaker 3: of fun.
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, it's great to have you back. And I
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Speaker 2: gotta say, first off the bat, I got to ask
2:30
Speaker 2: you about your Steve Rowe episode. For those of you
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Speaker 2: who don't know, Fred does a podcast on YouTube as well.
2:36
Speaker 2: The links in the description if you want to check
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Speaker 2: it out. But there was some fancy filming going on
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Speaker 2: there in that episode. Fred, Are you behind that or
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Speaker 2: is Steve like a secret multi millionaire that can hire
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Speaker 2: like professional film crews and drones.
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Speaker 3: Well, I can answer to that. I'm very fortunate that that.
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Speaker 3: My editor, Matt Cordels, who does all my editing for
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Speaker 3: my podcast, lives in San Antonio where Steve is. Oh,
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Speaker 3: so he was sort of that's the one. He was
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Speaker 3: in charge of that podcast, and so he was able
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Speaker 3: to do things that he otherwise would not do for
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Speaker 3: my other podcasts.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, man, this is fancy. Check this out.
3:20
Speaker 2: I mean it looks it looks great, I mean fantastic.
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Speaker 2: So hats off to Matthew for that for sure. But
3:28
Speaker 2: let's get what we're here for. You're gonna be speaking
3:29
Speaker 2: at Lancer this year as well. Ye about I believe
3:34
Speaker 2: Richard case Neguel and probably a couple other things as well.
3:38
Speaker 2: Your new book is, of course, not just centered on
3:42
Speaker 2: one thing. There's many different tales of mystery and imagination
3:46
Speaker 2: when it comes to Jim Garrison and his investigation. So
3:52
Speaker 2: what spurned this fourth book, Fred for you? A heritage
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Speaker 2: of nonsense which I like to play on, you know,
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Speaker 2: heritage of Stone.
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Speaker 3: Of course. Well, when I was writing my first book
4:03
Speaker 3: on Jim Garrison, on the Trail of Delusion, I realized
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Speaker 3: I wanted to tell not just the story of Clay Shaw,
4:11
Speaker 3: but I wanted to tell some of the other Garrison stories.
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Speaker 3: And I picked six stories in that book, very very
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Speaker 3: important stories that related to people who were indicted, like
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Speaker 3: Carrie Thornley, or people who are central to his investigation,
4:25
Speaker 3: like some of the anti Castroc Cubans. So I picked
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Speaker 3: six stories, but I have a many, many more stories,
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Speaker 3: and so I decided, well, you know, it's time for
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Speaker 3: a new book of some of these other stories about
4:39
Speaker 3: Jim Garrison that are still quite interesting, maybe not central
4:42
Speaker 3: to his investigation, but still concern him in some way,
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Speaker 3: and that I've done significant amount of work on. So
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Speaker 3: I picked nine stories for this book.
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Speaker 2: He's the gift that keeps on giving, you know, I mean,
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Speaker 2: when it comes to you know, there are certain conspiracy
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Speaker 2: believers out there who think Jim Garrison walks on water,
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Speaker 2: can do no wrong. And you know who these people are,
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Speaker 2: of course, you know. And then and then there's the
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Speaker 2: reasonable conspiracy theorists who realized.
5:13
Speaker 1: That that.
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Speaker 2: You know, he was. He may be he was definitely
5:19
Speaker 2: on the wrong direction when it came to Clay Shaw,
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Speaker 2: that's for sure. And but I think, you know, in
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Speaker 2: my heart of hearts, I'm glad he did what he
5:32
Speaker 2: did because it gives us so much more information to
5:36
Speaker 2: look through and leads to chase and things like this.
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Speaker 2: And are we going down the right path? I don't know,
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Speaker 2: But New Orleans at that time is full of these
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Speaker 2: colorful characters with these wild stories that are all seemingly interconnected.
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Speaker 2: But when it you know, when it comes down to
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Speaker 2: the Garrison investigation and the case against clay Shaw in particular,
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Speaker 2: which I don't think was his original target. And I
6:06
Speaker 2: don't know what your opinion is on that. I mean,
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Speaker 2: I think he was going after Ferry, and then when
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Speaker 2: he died, I think he he basically went to the
6:14
Speaker 2: next best thing.
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Speaker 3: What do you think, friend, Well, certainly David Ferry was
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Speaker 3: one of one of his initial targets. I would I
6:24
Speaker 3: have to say that, you know, David Ferry was a
6:27
Speaker 3: really good guy and incredibly misunderstood. He was the sort
6:31
Speaker 3: of person who if you had a flat tire at
6:34
Speaker 3: a restaurant, he would go and change it for you.
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Speaker 3: He was a really intelligent man who spoke multiple languages,
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Speaker 3: played the piano flu very very well educated, and he
6:46
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with any of it. I mean nothing.
6:49
Speaker 3: And he was actually a very very good person.
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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if I call him a good person, Fredd.
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Speaker 2: He did have some black marks against him there.
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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I have to say on the homosexuality
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Speaker 3: side that you know, the age of consent here in
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Speaker 3: Canada is sixteen, and he would. He had sixteen year olds,
7:12
Speaker 3: by the way, who were always coming back to him.
7:16
Speaker 3: Their parents might not have been happy, but when they
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Speaker 3: ran away from home, where did they go to? They
7:20
Speaker 3: went to David Ferry's house because he took them to
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Speaker 3: church on Sundays. He taught them to play piano, he
7:26
Speaker 3: taught them to fly, He taught them also they loved him.
7:29
Speaker 3: And I spoke to Alba buff a couple of years ago,
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Speaker 3: who went on the Texas trip and still loves still
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Speaker 3: speaks very highly of them.
7:40
Speaker 2: And that's didn't is that who Faery left everything to?
7:44
Speaker 1: Was? Was?
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Speaker 5: Was that?
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Speaker 1: Ye?
7:45
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay?
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Speaker 1: So Fred, what are your and officially high? I know
7:53
Speaker 1: we talked a couple of minutes after, but it's nice
7:55
Speaker 1: to meet you. I will be at Lancer too, so
7:57
Speaker 1: looking forward to meeting you. So so what do you
8:01
Speaker 1: just to follow up on your point on your statement there,
8:04
Speaker 1: what do you think about the Fairy Eastern Airlines situation?
8:10
Speaker 3: Well, you know, Faerry was a pipolo who unfortunately, you know,
8:14
Speaker 3: took a teenage boy into the cockpit and got fired.
8:18
Speaker 3: And he had of course a couple of run ins
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Speaker 3: with the law and got fired. It's kind of unfortunate,
8:23
Speaker 3: and that threw him into poverty after that, which was
8:28
Speaker 3: made his life really really horrible. But what can I say?
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Speaker 3: I think if David Ferry was alive today, none of
8:35
Speaker 3: this would have been controversial.
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Speaker 2: He did, and didn't he have Guy Banister come speak
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Speaker 2: on his behalf as he.
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Speaker 3: Hired He hired Guy Banister to help him with the
8:45
Speaker 3: investigation in Eastern Airlines and Banister testified on his behalf
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Speaker 3: during the hearings that they held.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I doubt he would have did that
8:56
Speaker 2: if he had any ill feelings towards David Ferry being
9:01
Speaker 2: you know, given his past, you know, with the FBI,
9:04
Speaker 2: and you know the type of type of guy that
9:06
Speaker 2: Banister seemingly was. I know, there's of course a lot
9:10
Speaker 2: of you know, misgivings about banisters so called involvement and
9:17
Speaker 2: what was going on in New Orleans. What we just
9:20
Speaker 2: had Janet banister On, who is a great niece of
9:24
Speaker 2: of Guy Banister on a couple of weeks ago, and
9:28
Speaker 2: she kind of leans, you know, more towards the low
9:31
Speaker 2: nut side of things. And we knew that going in,
9:34
Speaker 2: but you know, we still wanted to talk to her,
9:37
Speaker 2: but given who she is and what you know, she
9:39
Speaker 2: could learn from her family and everything. And she she's
9:44
Speaker 2: not real sure about, of course Banisher's involvement in the
9:50
Speaker 2: in the assassination as to the extent of it, as
9:55
Speaker 2: far as what was going on in New Orleans. And
9:57
Speaker 2: we've been stuck in New Orleans here, it feels like
10:00
Speaker 2: for two months, Joe talking about things going on in
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Speaker 2: New Orleans. Looking more into Banister stuff. What do you
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Speaker 2: think about Guy Banister?
10:07
Speaker 3: If you look at Guy Banister in nineteen sixty three,
10:10
Speaker 3: here was a man who was a drunk who couldn't
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Speaker 3: pay his rent. I mean he for like eight or
10:16
Speaker 3: nine months he couldn't pay his rent. He was thrown
10:19
Speaker 3: out of out of Lafayette Street. Everything was possessed by
10:23
Speaker 3: Sam Newman. I mean, here's this great you know, Cia
10:26
Speaker 3: Masterwind who can't pay his rent. I mean, he was
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Speaker 3: a drunk who was violent. This was a nobody and
10:34
Speaker 3: dare I say, you know this whole five forty four
10:37
Speaker 3: Camp Street is completely crazy because his his entrance had
10:42
Speaker 3: nothing to do with five forty four Camp Street. They
10:44
Speaker 3: were not exactly that that. You know, that's a fake
10:47
Speaker 3: that's a fake one.
10:50
Speaker 2: This is a professionally made fake.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you know, I think it was interesting
10:56
Speaker 3: when you go through the Garrison's files. There's a nice
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Speaker 3: little one page in his files where he lists out
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Speaker 3: all the employees of Guide Manister. It's like thirty employees.
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Speaker 3: The secretary is the tempts private investigators, like thirty people.
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Speaker 3: Garrison talked to every single one of those people. You
11:14
Speaker 3: could read all their reports. Nobody saw Oswald. Not one
11:19
Speaker 3: person saw Oswald.
11:22
Speaker 2: Well, I think Delphine says she saw Oswald.
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Speaker 3: She only said that after she was paid by by
11:28
Speaker 3: Anthony Summers. And of course if you look at her
11:31
Speaker 3: statements for the HSCA, they thought they put no credibility
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Speaker 3: in what she said.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean people like David Lewis says he
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Speaker 2: saw Oswald.
11:42
Speaker 3: Who could who could pay attention to David Lewis. I mean,
11:45
Speaker 3: that's that's a comical character who saw first off, his
11:48
Speaker 3: first statement about seeing Oswald was in nineteen sixty two
11:52
Speaker 3: when he was in the Soviet I mean, David Lewis
11:55
Speaker 3: is the funniest of all the characters.
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Speaker 2: Anna. She was the witness that Judy Baker tried to
12:03
Speaker 2: bring forward and she was saying, I don't know any
12:05
Speaker 2: of that, but yeah, but I mean there were there
12:09
Speaker 2: were some employees that guy Banster who said they saw Oswald.
12:12
Speaker 3: Who give me one.
12:15
Speaker 2: David Lewis.
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Speaker 3: David Lewis were first off, David Lewis doesn't count. He
12:19
Speaker 3: has no credibility if you look at his statements. I mean,
12:22
Speaker 3: nobody believes David Lewis, tom not even not even Garrison.
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Speaker 3: They gave him a polygraph test he failed and that
12:30
Speaker 3: was the end of him as a witness for Garrison.
12:32
Speaker 2: Oh, I know there, you know you can you can
12:34
Speaker 2: dig into a lot of these guys and just just
12:37
Speaker 2: disregard what they say based on one thing or another,
12:40
Speaker 2: you know. But I mean, there were a couple of
12:43
Speaker 2: people said they saw oswalden around Banisher's office, and and
12:47
Speaker 2: not just employees, I understand, just employees, but there were
12:50
Speaker 2: others named them.
12:52
Speaker 3: I'm all ears.
12:56
Speaker 2: Well, Joseph Foster absolutely not.
12:59
Speaker 3: You you go look at his statements. So I posted
13:02
Speaker 3: all his statements on the web. He didn't see Oswald.
13:06
Speaker 2: He said he saw Oswald talking to Banister.
13:09
Speaker 3: No, you're talking about William Godey.
13:11
Speaker 2: Well he did too.
13:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he saw Oswald talking to Bastard outside, but.
13:17
Speaker 2: But not as ostro or Newborough.
13:21
Speaker 3: No, Nobrooke, Newbrough did not see Oswald either.
13:25
Speaker 2: Huh.
13:26
Speaker 3: But every one of these statements on my on my website.
13:30
Speaker 2: Well I'm gonna have to bring him again then, yeah, I'll.
13:32
Speaker 3: Be I'll send you all. This is this is where
13:34
Speaker 3: I do think that people need to have a rethink
13:38
Speaker 3: of this part of the investigation. And this is where
13:40
Speaker 3: I think Garrison actually came up with nothing. And and
13:45
Speaker 3: the banister thing was he thought that was a big
13:47
Speaker 3: lead because there was a supposed connection of five point
13:50
Speaker 3: forty four cam Street, which there wasn't, and he come
13:54
Speaker 3: he came up empty.
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Speaker 2: Well let's let's go back to that for a second,
13:58
Speaker 2: because I could have swore and of course I don't
14:01
Speaker 2: save anything Fred when I when I talk about it.
14:04
Speaker 2: But I remember last time that we did talk, you know,
14:08
Speaker 2: you had mentioned that you know that there was no
14:11
Speaker 2: original handbills with this address stamped on it from the time, yep,
14:17
Speaker 2: that this is basically a movie prop right yep. And
14:24
Speaker 2: I could have sworn I've seen things, oh you know,
14:26
Speaker 2: throughout looking through old contemporaneous Garrison files that mentioned that
14:32
Speaker 2: five forty four Camp Street was stamped on some of
14:35
Speaker 2: these leaflets.
14:36
Speaker 3: It was stamped on a few correlless Lamont pamphlets, three
14:41
Speaker 3: or four correlless Lamont pamphlets he stamped FPCC five forty
14:46
Speaker 3: four Camp Street. But no the handbills that he gave out.
14:49
Speaker 1: Can you explain what that is Fred for the audience?
14:52
Speaker 3: Well, basically, the fair Play for Cuba Committee produced a
14:56
Speaker 3: pamphlet by corlss Lamont to cold I think the crimes
14:59
Speaker 3: again Cuba or whatever. And Oswald ordered uh twenty or
15:05
Speaker 3: thirty of these or two orders of these, and on
15:08
Speaker 3: a few of them he stamped them. He stamped them
15:10
Speaker 3: five forty four Camp Street. But the handbills that he
15:14
Speaker 3: gave them in the streets were either stamped with his
15:17
Speaker 3: home address or his post office box.
15:20
Speaker 2: Right now, Joe, pop up that thing from Bill Simpicch
15:24
Speaker 2: Sure where he used to think that when Carlos Kurroga
15:31
Speaker 2: delivered those handbills or when colors Kuga went to Oswald's
15:35
Speaker 2: house on Magazine Street, that he was that he delivered
15:40
Speaker 2: handbills with the address five forty four Camp Street. The
15:43
Speaker 2: Oswald and says that Missus Garner, who was his landlady
15:49
Speaker 2: supports that.
15:52
Speaker 3: That this guy, you can say whatever you want. And
15:55
Speaker 3: my challenge stands to anybody show me one of those handbills.
16:02
Speaker 1: Well, I rob just did. I'm just kidding, But you know,
16:05
Speaker 1: there are very few researchers in the community where I
16:09
Speaker 1: will accept a statement without looking into it completely. One
16:17
Speaker 1: of those is definitely Bill Simpach. And here he says
16:20
Speaker 1: Oswalt on the August sixteenth, so this is a little
16:23
Speaker 1: less than a week after the fracas. I believe the
16:27
Speaker 1: court was on the twelfth. He went out to leaflet
16:31
Speaker 1: on the sixteenth, and that's when the w that's where
16:34
Speaker 1: we have the footage we've seen right where the WDSU
16:37
Speaker 1: where he's outside of the trademark handing out leaflets.
16:41
Speaker 2: And the next day is.
16:43
Speaker 1: When he's interviewed for the Latin listening post. But there's
16:49
Speaker 1: you know, he states that camp Street was on that
16:52
Speaker 1: and Carlos Kiroga was sent by Brigner after the fracas
16:58
Speaker 1: to kind of play double a and try to figure
17:02
Speaker 1: out what Oswald.
17:03
Speaker 3: Was up to. So yes, and so I mean Carlos
17:07
Speaker 3: Karuga picked up a few of the handbills and brought
17:09
Speaker 3: them to Oswald. And that gaven the address he knew
17:12
Speaker 3: where to go where you get someone forty four gam Street.
17:16
Speaker 3: And by the way, five forty four Camp Street is
17:19
Speaker 3: not connected to Banister's office.
17:22
Speaker 2: Right, it's in the same building, but it's.
17:24
Speaker 3: In the same building, but they're not connected if you
17:25
Speaker 3: go to if you went to five forty four Camp
17:27
Speaker 3: Street in the summer of nineteen sixty three, you'd only
17:30
Speaker 3: find some union offices.
17:34
Speaker 2: Right. Well before that was a Sergio Kasha Smith.
17:38
Speaker 3: In sixty one you will find and he was only
17:41
Speaker 3: there for four or five months until he got thrown
17:43
Speaker 3: out because he couldn't pay his rent either.
17:46
Speaker 2: Yeah. Interesting, Fred. I came across the document a little
17:50
Speaker 2: bit ago, and I believe it's it was a document
17:54
Speaker 2: done up by the New Orleans PD when they were
17:56
Speaker 2: called to Banisters House to respond to his death. And
18:06
Speaker 2: he had well it was two hundred and eighty dollars
18:09
Speaker 2: in his in his front pocket, which in today's money, Fred,
18:15
Speaker 2: you know, that's almost three grand I mean, that's that's
18:19
Speaker 2: a lot of money back then. But you know, this
18:21
Speaker 2: guy can't pay his rent. We don't know what was
18:24
Speaker 2: in his wallet, but that was in you know, the
18:26
Speaker 2: front pocket. Walk around money type thing. I just thought
18:29
Speaker 2: it was interesting that he had all these money problems,
18:31
Speaker 2: but he's got almost the equivalent of three grand in
18:34
Speaker 2: his pocket.
18:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and Fred, I want to just go back
18:38
Speaker 1: to and push back, respectively on something you said earlier
18:41
Speaker 1: when you said, uh, banister was kind of a nobody.
18:44
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you meant in nineteen sixty
18:46
Speaker 1: three and sixty three. In sixty by the time that we're.
18:50
Speaker 3: Talking about, he was a drunk, violent, he beat somebody
18:53
Speaker 3: up on the bus, He was violent, he couldn't pay
18:55
Speaker 3: his rent. I mean, this was this is a this
18:57
Speaker 3: is a nobody.
18:59
Speaker 2: And the Channe she said that he possibly probably had
19:04
Speaker 2: a stroke at some point in his life to cause
19:08
Speaker 2: that kind of behavior, because he didn't used to be
19:12
Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, you know, but at some point she
19:15
Speaker 2: thinks or their family thinks that he had a stroke
19:18
Speaker 2: which led to this odd behavior, excessive drinking, which of
19:24
Speaker 2: course combined that with you know, his lifestyle and you know,
19:30
Speaker 2: equals short life, you know. But yeah, I just thought
19:33
Speaker 2: it was interested. And he had all that money in
19:34
Speaker 2: his pocket, and he all these employees. I don't know
19:36
Speaker 2: if he was paying them. Ah, you know, who knows?
19:41
Speaker 1: Working on commission or maybe, but I think Janet when
19:46
Speaker 1: we talked to her, John Banister said that she had
19:51
Speaker 1: found some correspondence between Banister and Hoover up until, like
19:55
Speaker 1: I could be wrong by a couple of months, up
19:57
Speaker 1: to two months before his death. So you know, there's
20:01
Speaker 1: this everyone kind of thinks that like once he left
20:06
Speaker 1: the FBI, they didn't talk again, but they were actually
20:09
Speaker 1: in community, you know, still corresponding, and Banister was was
20:13
Speaker 1: hired to lead the anti corruption effort in the NPD.
20:19
Speaker 3: After I believe it was late fifties, mid fifties something
20:24
Speaker 3: like that. So I just want to clarify what you
20:27
Speaker 3: what you meant, and I just want to I don't
20:30
Speaker 3: I don't find him that interesting as a character. I mean,
20:32
Speaker 3: it's interesting character, but I don't I find him that
20:34
Speaker 3: he has nothing to do with the assassination.
20:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just that damn Jack Martin down there, Stern.
20:41
Speaker 3: There's another character who could believe Jack Martin. And by
20:45
Speaker 3: the way, when when Jack Martin was spouting off in
20:48
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty three to anybody who would listen to him,
20:51
Speaker 3: he didn't say he saw Oswald the Banisher's office. He
20:55
Speaker 3: said everything else.
20:59
Speaker 2: True and we came across a document. Actually it was
21:01
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago where he was interviewed by
21:04
Speaker 2: the Secret Service before the FBI interviewed him. And this
21:08
Speaker 2: is right after the assassination, within a couple of days.
21:11
Speaker 2: I think it was November twenty six was the date
21:13
Speaker 2: on it where he said he he had made everything
21:16
Speaker 2: up about David Ferry. He said he pulled it out
21:20
Speaker 2: of thin air, He pulled a Dean Andrews to the
21:22
Speaker 2: Secret Service, and you know, for him, but that was
21:27
Speaker 2: that was the only time I've ever seen him admit
21:29
Speaker 2: that he that he lied about what he told him
21:33
Speaker 2: about David Ferry. But what's weird is, you know, while
21:39
Speaker 2: he did say what he said, the one thing he
21:42
Speaker 2: did tell him was that he saw a picture in
21:45
Speaker 2: Faerri's apartment with Oswald, which nobody saw until it was
21:49
Speaker 2: the early nineties, late eighties when it that that capture.
21:53
Speaker 3: And that picture and that picture which was found by
21:55
Speaker 3: you know, Gus Russo and the frontline people. Yeah, that
21:59
Speaker 3: picture had been solating for a long time. People in
22:01
Speaker 3: New Orleans or a lot of people, Gus will tell
22:04
Speaker 3: you the story. A lot of people knew about the picture,
22:06
Speaker 3: even when Garrison was investigating, they did not want to
22:08
Speaker 3: tell him about the picture. A lot of people were
22:10
Speaker 3: scared Garrison, but that picture was Yeah, but the picture
22:17
Speaker 3: means nothing.
22:21
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's kind of proof that they knew
22:23
Speaker 2: each other.
22:24
Speaker 3: Well, they knew each other in nineteen fifty five. But
22:26
Speaker 3: even David Ferry told told the FBI when he saw
22:30
Speaker 3: Oswald's pictures, he sort of looks familiar. And then after
22:35
Speaker 3: that night Edward Voebel called Ferry on the phone to say,
22:39
Speaker 3: you know, you were with Oswald in cap And so
22:43
Speaker 3: what does Faerry do? He calls the FBI to say,
22:46
Speaker 3: you know what I was with Ferry, I was with
22:49
Speaker 3: Oswald in cap Now, how often do you have a
22:51
Speaker 3: suspect calling the FBI to tell him that kind of information? True? True,
23:00
Speaker 3: This is why I laugh at all this stuff, because really,
23:02
Speaker 3: when you really seriously look at all this stuff, there's
23:05
Speaker 3: just nothing there.
23:08
Speaker 2: Well, let's let's touch on a couple of things that
23:10
Speaker 2: you have in your new book, Fred, and of course
23:17
Speaker 2: I'm with you. One on Richard Richard case Miguel, because
23:24
Speaker 2: despite having a book, this stick you know about the guy,
23:29
Speaker 2: there is absolute zero proof of anything this guy has
23:33
Speaker 2: ever said, and of course back then he was Garrison's
23:37
Speaker 2: mister X Right. Yep, we're interviewing him and and and
23:42
Speaker 2: the Looney Ben and Jail talk a little bit about
23:47
Speaker 2: Richard Case Miguel and the type of person that he was.
23:53
Speaker 2: I mean, we we've we've talked about him on the
23:55
Speaker 2: show before. We've talked about you know, his his accidents,
23:59
Speaker 2: his his his wounds, his mental condition. Why and I
24:06
Speaker 2: don't understand why people put so much weight to things
24:10
Speaker 2: that he said.
24:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, I call Richard Case Miguel the man who needed help.
24:14
Speaker 3: And it's actually quite a sad story, and I feel
24:17
Speaker 3: for for Neguel. He was a decorated Korean War veteran
24:23
Speaker 3: who led over one hundred and seventy five missions in
24:27
Speaker 3: Korea successfully. He was a terrific soldier, leader of men,
24:33
Speaker 3: very intelligent, and was destined for greatness in the military
24:40
Speaker 3: and going into military intelligence after his for being in
24:44
Speaker 3: the infantry. But unfortunately, he was in a plane crash
24:47
Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty four, very serious. He was the sole
24:50
Speaker 3: survivor of a plane crash and he suffered brain damage.
24:55
Speaker 3: He was in a coma for a month and he
24:56
Speaker 3: was in the hospital for six months. Broke his jaw
25:00
Speaker 3: two places, severe lacerations and and a concussion along with
25:07
Speaker 3: with some brain damage near the brain stem. And he
25:11
Speaker 3: was never the same after that. It's very very sad,
25:14
Speaker 3: smart man.
25:16
Speaker 2: And then I think a little bit after he got
25:19
Speaker 2: out of that of the military, he was working for
25:22
Speaker 2: like the state liquor authority or something and they was shot.
25:27
Speaker 2: He was shot doing that.
25:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a self inflicted wound. He was working
25:32
Speaker 3: for the Alcohol Beverage Control Board in California.
25:36
Speaker 2: He shot himself.
25:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was self inflicted. And ultimately, I'm sorry,
25:45
Speaker 3: where did he shoot himself? Oh somewhere somewhere in his
25:49
Speaker 3: y I'm not sure exactly where, but he he wasn't
25:53
Speaker 3: down that job, and so that that job left and
25:59
Speaker 3: he was feeling suicidal, and that's when he went into
26:01
Speaker 3: the bank in El Paso and shot it up, well
26:05
Speaker 3: while trying to. I don't know if you call it,
26:07
Speaker 3: wouldn't call it a robbery. I think it was a
26:09
Speaker 3: cry for help.
26:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, because when he went into the bank and shot
26:13
Speaker 2: in the ceiling and then walked back out of the
26:15
Speaker 2: bank and just kind of sat there and.
26:17
Speaker 3: Wad into his car. He tried to get away in
26:19
Speaker 3: his car.
26:19
Speaker 2: Oh, he did try to get away, but he was
26:21
Speaker 2: but I mean, he only.
26:22
Speaker 3: He asked for only one hundred dollars in travelers checks
26:25
Speaker 3: and then said, I have a gun. It's not a
26:27
Speaker 3: lot of money, it's not a huge hold up. But
26:31
Speaker 3: he said he told to sell meate that he had
26:35
Speaker 3: tried suicide a couple of times on his way to Alpasso,
26:38
Speaker 3: and he figured the best way to do it would
26:40
Speaker 3: be to go to a place where he might get
26:42
Speaker 3: shot by a policeman, and the bank was was his choice.
26:47
Speaker 2: What about all the hullabaloo about what was in his trunk?
26:53
Speaker 3: And this is what I find really interesting was that
26:55
Speaker 3: if you look at the if you go to archive
26:57
Speaker 3: dot org, you can actually get the police reports for
27:01
Speaker 3: his arrest, like twenty pages of police reports with a
27:04
Speaker 3: complete inventory of everything that was found in his trunk.
27:08
Speaker 3: There's also an FBI report with a complete inventory of
27:11
Speaker 3: everything found in his trunk. And there was nothing there
27:13
Speaker 3: to Lincoln with Oswald, just absolutely.
27:18
Speaker 2: Nothing found with Oswald's name on it or anything like that.
27:22
Speaker 3: Nothing, I mean, and funny, I mean, Dick Russell in
27:26
Speaker 3: his book thinks that he has a smoking gun, and
27:29
Speaker 3: the smoking gun was that was that Bernard Finsterwald in
27:33
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five found in the Neguel file in his
27:37
Speaker 3: office in Washington, a you know, a fake Oswald I
27:41
Speaker 3: D card And so they he wrote, well he must
27:46
Speaker 3: have found obviously that was on Miguel's possession in El Paso.
27:50
Speaker 3: But it was a xerox of a card found in
27:53
Speaker 3: his file in nineteen seventy five. I mean, where's your
27:56
Speaker 3: chain of custody on that.
28:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little suspected best at that point for sure.
28:03
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the real for the funniest part of Russell's book,
28:07
Speaker 3: the first book, the first edition, was he published page
28:11
Speaker 3: two or page three of a military intelligence report on
28:15
Speaker 3: Miguel as proof that he was employed by the CIA.
28:20
Speaker 3: But if you read that one page, it appears like
28:22
Speaker 3: it's maybe they're interviewing Miguel. And of course when you
28:26
Speaker 3: find the whole document, the whole document is from a
28:30
Speaker 3: Berlin interview of Miguel, and it's all him talking about
28:33
Speaker 3: being part of the CIA. It was completely bogus.
28:37
Speaker 2: Well, of course he was. It's Noguele hi deell. They're
28:41
Speaker 2: so similar for it. Yeah, yeah, code names.
28:45
Speaker 3: But it's a sad story. And I really feel for Miguel.
28:48
Speaker 3: He actually ended up suing the American government for disability
28:52
Speaker 3: going back to the date of his of the brain injury,
28:56
Speaker 3: and he actually won that suit, but it took him
28:59
Speaker 3: several years to get that and he got some back
29:01
Speaker 3: pay from that. His son said, he spent at allans
29:04
Speaker 3: and was traveling and ridiculous hotels.
29:08
Speaker 1: But it's it's a very sad story. And Fred, do
29:12
Speaker 1: you mean the brain injury from the plane crash. Yeah,
29:15
Speaker 1: and it was a military flight, you mean, yeah, it was.
29:18
Speaker 3: It was a he was he was on his way
29:20
Speaker 3: from California to uh to Washington, and it was a
29:23
Speaker 3: beat and he was the sole survivor and he was
29:26
Speaker 3: in the wreckage for twelve hours until they got to
29:29
Speaker 3: him and they had to perform at trichaotomy in the
29:32
Speaker 3: field to get him to breathe. And and that was,
29:35
Speaker 3: by the way, his second concussion. You know, he suffered
29:38
Speaker 3: a concussion in Korea while serving for serving there as well.
29:43
Speaker 2: He was very lucky to have survived all of all
29:46
Speaker 2: the injuries of his life to you know, to get
29:49
Speaker 2: to live until was it the mid nineties, I think
29:51
Speaker 2: he made it so.
29:52
Speaker 3: So, yeah, he was very lucky. In fact, I post
29:55
Speaker 3: I have on on my it's not in my book,
29:58
Speaker 3: but h an article for from the Maryland Papers a
30:01
Speaker 3: couple of days after his plane crash where they say
30:03
Speaker 3: he's got a fifty to fifty chance of living.
30:06
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they don't make him like they used to,
30:09
Speaker 2: that's for sure. These guys are tough back then. Well.
30:14
Speaker 1: And and last thing before we move on from Miguel
30:16
Speaker 1: h how did he or did he not end up
30:20
Speaker 1: in Japan with Oswald at the Queen Bee as we've
30:25
Speaker 1: as we've.
30:26
Speaker 3: Heard, he wasn't. He wasn't with Oswald in Japan. In fact,
30:29
Speaker 3: there's a very little overlap, but he was. Miguel was
30:32
Speaker 3: in Japan and he was part of military intelligence. He
30:35
Speaker 3: was also in Korea for military intelligence. He was advising
30:39
Speaker 3: the Korean Army. But he was in Japan as well
30:42
Speaker 3: for a short period of time. And and and that
30:45
Speaker 3: was legitimate in in in an intelligence work. It all
30:49
Speaker 3: came to an end for him when he decided to
30:52
Speaker 3: marry a Japanese national. He was, in fact he's stunt
30:56
Speaker 3: stuck her into his quarters in Japan, and see legal
31:00
Speaker 3: to be in counterintelligence and have a foreign national in
31:04
Speaker 3: your room and of course marriage was it was illegal,
31:07
Speaker 3: illegal for that he had to retire from counterintelligence because
31:11
Speaker 3: of his marriage.
31:14
Speaker 2: Hmm.
31:15
Speaker 1: Interesting, but there's not like direct evidence that they ever
31:18
Speaker 1: cross paths.
31:19
Speaker 2: No, sorry to have an issue with my camera there.
31:26
Speaker 2: I don't know where it was pointing. Let's talk a
31:29
Speaker 2: little bit about a Rose by any other name, because
31:34
Speaker 2: when you talk about Rose sharing Me, you know, of
31:38
Speaker 2: course it's the iconic opening of Oliver Stone's film JFK
31:42
Speaker 2: where she gets tossed off on the highway and she
31:44
Speaker 2: supposedly has you know, fore knowledge of the assassination, if
31:48
Speaker 2: you will, and claims that these people on their way
31:51
Speaker 2: to Dallas and they're gonna kill Kennedy. Now, you know,
31:54
Speaker 2: I think everybody understands that, you know, Rose share Me
31:59
Speaker 2: has some drug shoes in her life, made probably some
32:03
Speaker 2: poor decision making, for sure. What else can you tell
32:07
Speaker 2: us about her, Fred And why don't you believe her story?
32:13
Speaker 3: Well, it's another interesting story and another person who needed help,
32:16
Speaker 3: who really had a lot of trouble in her life
32:19
Speaker 3: in out of mental institutions and crime and a variety
32:23
Speaker 3: of of horrible stuff. So she had a really, really
32:26
Speaker 3: tough life when it comes to the story that we
32:31
Speaker 3: all know and love about Rose share Me. The simple
32:34
Speaker 3: truth is that there's not one witness who heard her
32:38
Speaker 3: say anything about the JFK assassination before it happened. Not one.
32:43
Speaker 3: And what I find really striking was that we talked
32:46
Speaker 3: about Francis Fruge, who was the policeman who sort of
32:50
Speaker 3: took her to the hospital, et cetera, et cetera. Fruge
32:54
Speaker 3: was in narcotics, and his interest in Rose share Me
33:00
Speaker 3: after the assassination was in narcotics, and he had her
33:04
Speaker 3: taken to Houston to work in narcotics deal. Now, had
33:09
Speaker 3: he really believed that she had fore knowledge of the
33:11
Speaker 3: JFK assassination, I would have thought that would have taken
33:14
Speaker 3: precedence overtaken her to Houston for a narcotics deal.
33:19
Speaker 2: Well, did she tell him that or did she tell
33:23
Speaker 2: like the doctors at the hospital the story, Well.
33:30
Speaker 3: She said something at the hospital, But the problem is
33:35
Speaker 3: is that the doctors who were there not. Nobody is
33:37
Speaker 3: coming forward to say that she said she had fore knowledge.
33:41
Speaker 3: For instance, Victor Wise, who a lot of people quote,
33:46
Speaker 3: is one of the doctors who said she had fore knowledge.
33:49
Speaker 3: He denies it. He said, as I spoke to her,
33:53
Speaker 3: but after the assassination, and he says, the person who
33:57
Speaker 3: spoke to her before the assassination was doctor Don Bauer.
34:01
Speaker 3: And if you speak to doctor Don Bowers, he said, no,
34:04
Speaker 3: not me.
34:06
Speaker 2: Huh.
34:06
Speaker 3: And so you know there's no I mean, you have
34:09
Speaker 3: to have at least some direct evidence of her saying this.
34:13
Speaker 3: And when Fruge wrote his report for Jim Garrison, the
34:18
Speaker 3: only statements that he reported in his report was that
34:20
Speaker 3: she stripped at Ruby's club and that Oswald and Ruby
34:25
Speaker 3: were bed partners. He said, everything else is hearsay.
34:31
Speaker 2: Did she even strip it at the carousels?
34:33
Speaker 3: No evidence that she stripped at Ruby's club? And she did,
34:36
Speaker 3: she said it was the pink door. Well his club
34:39
Speaker 3: wasn't the pink door. And so maybe you had were
34:44
Speaker 3: bed partners and and so, but I think that she
34:46
Speaker 3: she had a reason, and I think there was a
34:48
Speaker 3: reason why she was doing this, and it's the and
34:51
Speaker 3: she had done this before where she says, I have
34:54
Speaker 3: knowledge about something, and she wanted something. She wanted to
34:56
Speaker 3: go to the hospital and guess what they brought. They
34:59
Speaker 3: flew her to Houston where she wanted to be. It
35:01
Speaker 3: was perfect, perfect scheme by by Roe sharing me.
35:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, because she said, uh, they flew her to Houston
35:10
Speaker 1: to investigate the narcotics ring.
35:13
Speaker 3: She was talking about, right, that's right, okay, and.
35:17
Speaker 1: Uh, but but to uh just be objective. If he
35:21
Speaker 1: did pick up someone like Roe share me on the
35:23
Speaker 1: side of the road on it was November twentieth, and
35:27
Speaker 1: she was saying something like Kennedy whatever, I was going
35:31
Speaker 1: to be assassinated. You can't really blame Prouge for not
35:36
Speaker 1: taking that seriously right away.
35:38
Speaker 3: Also, well, no, of course not but but but he
35:41
Speaker 3: but you know, he picks her up after the assassination.
35:44
Speaker 3: Now if she really if he had heard her say something,
35:49
Speaker 3: I would have ran. I would have ran to the FBI.
35:52
Speaker 3: Oh my god, here's somebody who's for knowledge. But instead
35:55
Speaker 3: he takes to Houston for a narcotics deal and and
35:58
Speaker 3: he calls up his superiors. I got somebody who wants
36:00
Speaker 3: to work in arctics deal.
36:04
Speaker 2: And her version of the story gets bastard as over
36:06
Speaker 2: the years.
36:07
Speaker 3: I don't I don't buy it. I just don't buy it.
36:09
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, he's a law officer, a law
36:12
Speaker 3: officer who believes that he has an important witness in
36:15
Speaker 3: the assassination saw it, and he supposedly in the story
36:19
Speaker 3: that I asked her if she wanted to talk to
36:21
Speaker 3: Will Fritz and she said no, Well come on, he
36:27
Speaker 3: has word doledge and she tells you, now, okay, I'll
36:29
Speaker 3: drop it.
36:30
Speaker 2: I wouldn't talk to that guy either.
36:33
Speaker 3: And the other thing I just think that you should
36:34
Speaker 3: everybody should know is Francis Fruget's history, which I uncovered
36:40
Speaker 3: in the papers of Patricia Lambert at the sixth floor.
36:43
Speaker 3: He is a history of not being very honest. You know.
36:48
Speaker 3: He worked with Anne Dishler, that was his partner in
36:50
Speaker 3: the investigation of both Rose sharing Me and the Clinton witnesses.
36:54
Speaker 3: And he can fight at Dan Dishler that in a
36:56
Speaker 3: murder investigation he manufactured evidence to convict somebody.
37:02
Speaker 2: Well, I think that was part for a lot of
37:04
Speaker 2: the course back then.
37:06
Speaker 3: And then that's not all. He embezzled money from her,
37:10
Speaker 3: and you know, I mean there's there's issues here.
37:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, these officers back then, you know, they didn't make
37:20
Speaker 2: much money. It's not like it is today. I don't
37:21
Speaker 2: think there was a sense of commitment you know that
37:25
Speaker 2: you get from like police officers.
37:27
Speaker 3: Now, well, you were both caught judging their expense reports
37:31
Speaker 3: that they were caught.
37:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there always will be dirty cops. But that's interesting. Yeah. Well,
37:41
Speaker 2: let's move on to one of my favorite characters, Fred
37:44
Speaker 2: and this whole thing. And you might know who I'm
37:48
Speaker 2: going to mention here, because you were kind enough to
37:50
Speaker 2: put a picture of our little podcast in your book
37:52
Speaker 2: and I would geek that for a minute when I
37:54
Speaker 2: saw it. And I'm talking about Larry Crayford, The Battle
37:58
Speaker 2: of Larry Crayford. What about Larry Crayford? Did you look into,
38:05
Speaker 2: uh to kind of check out on him? I know,
38:08
Speaker 2: you know, us conspiracy theories have alluded or supposed some
38:13
Speaker 2: involvement in and some things like the tip and murder
38:19
Speaker 2: or some you know, knowledge of what was going on.
38:22
Speaker 2: I do believe that that Crayford was mistaken for Oswald
38:28
Speaker 2: and a lot of these ruby Oswald's sightings pre assassination.
38:33
Speaker 2: Fairly convinced of that. But what did you find out
38:36
Speaker 2: when you looked at Larry.
38:38
Speaker 3: Well, I thought it was interesting looking at reading his
38:41
Speaker 3: testimony into the Warren Commission. I mean, in a certain sense,
38:45
Speaker 3: I had to laugh when I was reading his testimony,
38:48
Speaker 3: because here is a man who was a drifter. I mean,
38:52
Speaker 3: what an incredible drifter. He could not hold down a
38:54
Speaker 3: job for more than three or four days, and he
38:57
Speaker 3: had so many jobs that he couldn't keep it straight
39:00
Speaker 3: in his mind and the warrant commission and they had
39:03
Speaker 3: trouble keeping it straight, and I had trouble. I mean
39:06
Speaker 3: I was writing down, you know, each job, Okay, how
39:10
Speaker 3: many days did you work there? Okay, and trying to okay, now,
39:13
Speaker 3: this job in four days, and trying to get it
39:15
Speaker 3: lined up into some sort of decent chronology, and it
39:18
Speaker 3: just wouldn't work. I mean, I'm trying to line it
39:20
Speaker 3: up to when he started working for Ruby, and there
39:23
Speaker 3: was just too many jobs and too many days. And
39:26
Speaker 3: I realized, you know, I don't know, maybe this job
39:28
Speaker 3: wasn't six days, it was two days. We'll never really know.
39:32
Speaker 3: But he couldn't hold down a job, and he was
39:34
Speaker 3: a drifter. And I felt that when he left to
39:39
Speaker 3: hitchhike back to visit his sister, it was completely in
39:42
Speaker 3: character with who he was.
39:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I definitely think that it was in
39:48
Speaker 2: character with who he was. It was just really bad
39:50
Speaker 2: timing on his part, you know, if that's when he
39:55
Speaker 2: picked to get to get out of dodge, you.
39:57
Speaker 3: Know what I mean, he had already told Ruby that
39:59
Speaker 3: he wanted to leave. Yeah, And a lot of people
40:02
Speaker 3: were leaving that weekend. I mean bre Breckwall for instance,
40:05
Speaker 3: went to visit his parents in Galveston. There were a
40:08
Speaker 3: number of strippers, all sorts of people. Even Ruby. I
40:11
Speaker 3: wanted to go visit his sister and get her a
40:13
Speaker 3: dodge and she she was ill from an operation. She said,
40:17
Speaker 3: don't come. So there are a lot of people sort
40:19
Speaker 3: of well, maybe it's not the best time to be
40:20
Speaker 3: in Dallas.
40:23
Speaker 2: True, true, But I know a lot of these early
40:27
Speaker 2: early conspiracy theorists like Penn Jones and these and these types,
40:31
Speaker 2: you know, we're really trying to put Larry Crayford on
40:34
Speaker 2: the Grassy Knoll or in the stick floor of the
40:37
Speaker 2: school book depository, or you know, anywhere else with a weapon.
40:43
Speaker 2: You know, they've even alluded to his master sniper marksmanship,
40:47
Speaker 2: or you know, like people like mort Saul got things
40:49
Speaker 2: wrong and telling the public about Larry Crayford. And you know,
40:56
Speaker 2: it's just always been odd to me these things. What
41:04
Speaker 2: and I guess what what did in his interview with
41:09
Speaker 2: Peter Whippey that he did like in the early two
41:12
Speaker 2: thousands in the way I understood it when he talked
41:15
Speaker 2: or during the HSCA that they did try to find Crayford,
41:19
Speaker 2: but they couldn't find him because he was spelling his
41:22
Speaker 2: name a little different, which that's the reason. I mean,
41:28
Speaker 2: that's some piss poor investigation. But that's for another story.
41:32
Speaker 2: But like I said later on, I believe John Mellon
41:36
Speaker 2: tracked him down. Peter Whippey tracked him down, and he
41:40
Speaker 2: told his story of him being a hit man in
41:47
Speaker 2: San Francisco, you know, working for the mob and knocking
41:50
Speaker 2: up the godfather's daughter and having to leave town. What
41:54
Speaker 2: do you why do you dismiss that story if it
41:58
Speaker 2: was corroborated by his brother.
42:00
Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't really corroborated by his brother. I mean,
42:03
Speaker 3: if you read what Whitney said, he said that his
42:06
Speaker 3: brother appeared to corroborate it. I don't know what that means. Look,
42:11
Speaker 3: you know, be a hit man. I mean he couldn't
42:15
Speaker 3: hold out. He could barely hold down a job at
42:17
Speaker 3: a carnival for four days. The mafia is going to
42:19
Speaker 3: hire him to be a hit man. Well, I don't
42:22
Speaker 3: believe that for a second.
42:24
Speaker 2: Well he did pick some beautiful strawberries in his time.
42:28
Speaker 3: So don't know where we get this idea that he
42:30
Speaker 3: was a sharpshooter, like a sniper. Where does that come from?
42:35
Speaker 2: Military for like a little over a year.
42:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was tossed out of the military for some reason.
42:41
Speaker 3: I don't know why he was taught to tossed out
42:44
Speaker 3: of the reason. I don't It wasn't homosexuality, but there
42:47
Speaker 3: was some you know something, there was something about him
42:49
Speaker 3: that they didn't like.
42:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, some behavior disorder. I was reading it earlier.
42:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, he claimed that, you know, he was they were
42:57
Speaker 2: sending him on secret missions to Asia and he'd you know,
43:00
Speaker 2: in a year with the military, they're going to be
43:03
Speaker 2: doing that. Just doesn't make sense at least that you know,
43:06
Speaker 2: that part of his story and how he got his
43:09
Speaker 2: wounded leg or whatever he was talking about, which he
43:14
Speaker 2: claims happened, you know, in one of his clandestine black
43:17
Speaker 2: op style missions when he was with the military. But
43:20
Speaker 2: who knows. But yeah, he's been he's been one of
43:23
Speaker 2: my favorites that you know, Uh, of course, you know,
43:26
Speaker 2: you got to look into all these guys see what
43:28
Speaker 2: shakes out. And I'm not saying he was involved or not.
43:30
Speaker 2: It's just it's just one of those things. It's the
43:32
Speaker 2: odd coincidence that you know. Do you do you think
43:35
Speaker 2: that he was mistaken for Oswald?
43:37
Speaker 3: With a lot of these he might have been mistaken
43:40
Speaker 3: for Oswald at the club and and what I find
43:42
Speaker 3: funny is that you have some conspiracy theorists who say
43:45
Speaker 3: he was impersonating Oswald, But I do think he might
43:48
Speaker 3: have been. He might have been mistaken for Oswald, as
43:52
Speaker 3: I do in my uh when I talk about the
43:55
Speaker 3: Clinton witnesses in Clinton, Louisiana, I think that that there
44:01
Speaker 3: was a there was a uh somebody was working for
44:05
Speaker 3: Core there who was same age as Oswald, who I
44:07
Speaker 3: think may have looked like.
44:10
Speaker 1: Yeah corps of course, of course the Congress of Racial
44:14
Speaker 1: Equality right, and wasn't Frouge And I was always saying frouge,
44:19
Speaker 1: So thank you for correcting me on that he was.
44:23
Speaker 1: Wasn't he the cop that went up to the black
44:26
Speaker 1: Cadillac and uh made the police report there?
44:31
Speaker 3: Well, he wasn't. No, he wasn't. That wasn't him. But
44:33
Speaker 3: he was with Anne Dischler on going to Clinton and
44:36
Speaker 3: and doing some investigations. So they were they were for
44:39
Speaker 3: Garrison they were partners for Garrison in investigating that, and
44:44
Speaker 3: I think unfortunately, if you uh, you know, it's really unfortunate.
44:48
Speaker 3: If you read Bruge's HSCA testimony, they blew it. The
44:53
Speaker 3: HSCA blew it. If you read his testimony, Jonathan Blackmer
44:57
Speaker 3: was the guy who was deposing him. Most of it
45:01
Speaker 3: was on share me. They were like maybe six or
45:04
Speaker 3: seven pages on Clinton, and so many questions that I
45:08
Speaker 3: would have asked were not asked. I think the hsc
45:11
Speaker 3: blew that investigation into both parts. Unfortunately, Yeah, I agree,
45:17
Speaker 3: they could have done a whole lot. The HSCA didn't
45:20
Speaker 3: even figure out that his partner in the investigation was
45:23
Speaker 3: Anne Dishler.
45:28
Speaker 2: And Fred. I think it was in the.
45:32
Speaker 1: Chapter one, the Crayford chapter where you were talking about
45:36
Speaker 1: Ruby and Crayford, and I think they picked him up
45:40
Speaker 1: the morning of the twenty third, which would have been
45:42
Speaker 1: Saturday morning, to get his camera to go photograph the
45:50
Speaker 1: billboards of the.
45:53
Speaker 2: Film The Blanks.
45:54
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, basically, you know, the whole Ruby story is
45:58
Speaker 3: very interesting because Ruby, the large part of the Ruby
46:02
Speaker 3: story is anti Semitism. Ruby was very very sensitive to
46:07
Speaker 3: anti Semitism his whole life and he faced it in
46:09
Speaker 3: the military, and of course going to a southern city,
46:13
Speaker 3: he faced anti semitism there, and so he was finally
46:16
Speaker 3: attuned to it. And the morning of November twenty second,
46:20
Speaker 3: if you remember, there was that big full page ad
46:23
Speaker 3: in the Dallas Morning News criticizing Kennedy's foreign policy, signed
46:27
Speaker 3: by Bernard Weissman. And Ruby saw that ad with a
46:31
Speaker 3: big black border and it was a Jewish name, and
46:35
Speaker 3: that really bothered him. And there was a post office
46:38
Speaker 3: box associated with that ad. And after the assassination he
46:43
Speaker 3: started to wonder. He also saw the Impeachraal Warren signs
46:48
Speaker 3: and he started to wonder, you know, are Jews going
46:51
Speaker 3: to be blamed for the assassination because of this this
46:55
Speaker 3: Bernard Weisman ad. And so he went to the post
46:57
Speaker 3: office box to see if you could find out who
47:00
Speaker 3: Bernard Weisman was. Of course, they weren't going to tell
47:03
Speaker 3: him any information that was private. He did see there
47:06
Speaker 3: was a lot of mail in the mailbox. But he
47:09
Speaker 3: was really greatly exercised by the whole concept of andy Semitism.
47:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to your point there, we had a guest
47:17
Speaker 1: on a few months ago. Rob I think Danny finger
47:19
Speaker 1: Off was it the guy who had written a new
47:22
Speaker 1: book on Ruby, and he is alone, not as well
47:27
Speaker 1: lone moser as you. But he talked a lot about
47:31
Speaker 1: the anti Semitism thing. But what doesn't make sense to
47:34
Speaker 1: me is if Ruby was that concerned with the image
47:42
Speaker 1: of Jewish Americans Jewish people, why would he do this
47:46
Speaker 1: impulsive act which would undoubtedly bring more heat on the
47:53
Speaker 1: Jewish community that doesn't know.
47:55
Speaker 3: That's a really good question, and I think, first off,
47:58
Speaker 3: but it was an impulsive act, and that's why after
48:01
Speaker 3: he did it and people asked him, why did you
48:03
Speaker 3: do it, he came up with different answers. You know,
48:05
Speaker 3: when you do something impulsively, there's no real answer. So
48:08
Speaker 3: he came up with, I wanted to save Jackie from
48:10
Speaker 3: attending a trial. He also said I wanted to show
48:13
Speaker 3: that Jews have balls. All that was nonsense because it
48:16
Speaker 3: was an impulsive act. All this backfired and Ruby, I
48:20
Speaker 3: mean in a tremendous way because of him shooting Oswald.
48:25
Speaker 3: That John Birches saw it. He basically went and said, well,
48:27
Speaker 3: you know, this proves that Jews were involved in the
48:29
Speaker 3: assassination because Ruby shot Oswald and Ruby saw this, and
48:35
Speaker 3: he was horrified that perhaps Jews would now be blamed
48:38
Speaker 3: for the assassination because of what he did, and that
48:42
Speaker 3: went he went completely over the edge. And that's when
48:45
Speaker 3: he started talking about his second Holocaust.
48:50
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, one guy I was surprised to see in
48:52
Speaker 2: your book, Fred, it was Raymond Forshears. Yep, you know
49:00
Speaker 2: he was. He tells the hell of a story and
49:05
Speaker 2: claims to have been a roommate of David Fairies at
49:07
Speaker 2: one point. Yep, And claims, of course that David Fairy
49:10
Speaker 2: told him all the all of these crazy stories and
49:14
Speaker 2: things and tell us why you don't believe old Raymond.
49:21
Speaker 3: Well, Raymond was quite a character, and in fact he's
49:25
Speaker 3: he is enshrined in the gay and lesbian archives in California.
49:29
Speaker 3: As you know, he was a gay rights hero in
49:33
Speaker 3: some ways. He fought for gay rights in in San Francisco,
49:37
Speaker 3: so he has his place in history. Unfortunately, he decided
49:40
Speaker 3: to immerse himself into the JFK assassination when he first
49:44
Speaker 3: went on television to say that he had channeled Lee
49:46
Speaker 3: Harvey Oswald at a seance and and and and then
49:53
Speaker 3: you know he said he was a roommate of David
49:54
Speaker 3: Ferry and that got him the Garrison people interested. They
49:58
Speaker 3: took him to New Orleans, questioned twice in New Orleans.
50:02
Speaker 3: He had a good time in New Orleans, running after
50:04
Speaker 3: all the boys, and but they realized quickly that he
50:09
Speaker 3: was just telling all these ridiculous stories. I mean he was.
50:12
Speaker 3: He was saying that he had sex with Oswald, he
50:14
Speaker 3: had sex with Kerry Thornley, that Kerry Thornley was the
50:17
Speaker 3: person in the Oswald photograph. I mean, there's a million
50:21
Speaker 3: things that he said that are just ridiculous. And the
50:24
Speaker 3: Garrison people basically sent him packing back to California. But
50:29
Speaker 3: it didn't end there, and unfortunately, he was actually was
50:32
Speaker 3: called to testify before the House Selectmmittee on Assassinations and.
50:36
Speaker 1: I have it.
50:36
Speaker 3: It's I have it on YouTube. You can actually hear
50:38
Speaker 3: Raymond Brochures on my YouTube channel testifying before the HSCA
50:44
Speaker 3: saying more crazy things and in fact saying things that
50:48
Speaker 3: were complete opposite of what he had told Garrison.
50:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like like almost like attention getting for him,
50:56
Speaker 2: you know very much.
50:57
Speaker 3: So I think he was really into into getting its.
51:00
Speaker 3: Anything he would do to get attention, that was his
51:02
Speaker 3: whole stick.
51:04
Speaker 2: Now I was sent I was sent something by a
51:09
Speaker 2: listener of ours. He's one of our superspies. Trey, and
51:14
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've seen the book that came
51:16
Speaker 2: out last year Fred called Pipe the Bimbo and Red Yep.
51:20
Speaker 2: I have it, okay, and you might be familiar with
51:25
Speaker 2: what I was going to ask you about. There was
51:28
Speaker 2: a passage in the book the kind of claims that
51:33
Speaker 2: Garrison was a clauseted homosexual and was it I think
51:39
Speaker 2: it was in nineteen seventy. I don't know if he
51:42
Speaker 2: was formerly charged or it was alleged that he had
51:46
Speaker 2: propositioned a twelve year old boy. And it turns out
51:50
Speaker 2: in the book they talked to Dean Andrews's son and
51:53
Speaker 2: he was the kid. At least he says he was
51:57
Speaker 2: the kid.
51:57
Speaker 3: That's not true, that that's not true. But first I
52:01
Speaker 3: should tell you that that book is really really horrible.
52:06
Speaker 3: I mean really if you look at there just one
52:09
Speaker 3: example in that book, there's a section in there on
52:12
Speaker 3: permitex CMC, which is one of my favorite topics because
52:15
Speaker 3: I think I have the largest amount of primary documents
52:19
Speaker 3: about permandex and they go to the Torbot They use
52:22
Speaker 3: the Torbet document as their as their source for information
52:27
Speaker 3: on permandex which is complete. I mean, I couldn't believe
52:31
Speaker 3: it when I got the book. But let's go back
52:33
Speaker 3: to what really happened with Garrison. And there was a
52:36
Speaker 3: real case where this was at the New Orleans Athletic Club.
52:40
Speaker 3: This was in nineteen sixty, I'm not sure the exact
52:44
Speaker 3: year it was. Jack Anderson actually had a home about this.
52:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it on set.
52:49
Speaker 3: Ran nationwide except in New Orleans. It was a thirteen
52:56
Speaker 3: year old boy who Garrison fondled, and he was part
53:02
Speaker 3: of a very prominent Catholic family and they were threatened,
53:07
Speaker 3: and they also did not want publicity, and they decided
53:10
Speaker 3: not to press charges. I have in my possession a
53:16
Speaker 3: complete interview with that boy who was now a man
53:20
Speaker 3: and his brother that I found in the papers of
53:23
Speaker 3: Patricia Lambert that discussed this in quite graphic detail and
53:28
Speaker 3: it happened.
53:31
Speaker 2: Wow. So there's another myth debumped here on the show.
53:34
Speaker 2: It was not Dean Andrews's son or Dean Andrews junior son.
53:38
Speaker 3: I think I think in the book, in that book,
53:41
Speaker 3: I think that they claim that Dean Andrews's son may
53:44
Speaker 3: have also been another person who might have been fondled
53:47
Speaker 3: or Garrison made a pass at him or something like that. Yeah,
53:51
Speaker 3: even slightly different. And I don't know whether that's true
53:53
Speaker 3: or not.
53:54
Speaker 1: And when did these claims surface?
53:57
Speaker 3: Fred The claim against Garrison was in nineteen I think
54:01
Speaker 3: it was sixty eight or sixty nine. I'm not sure
54:04
Speaker 3: the year. I have to go back and check it.
54:06
Speaker 3: But Jack Anderson did a whole column on this that
54:09
Speaker 3: ran nationwide about these allegations.
54:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course my.
54:16
Speaker 1: Immediate hesitation with that is discrediting. And I don't know
54:22
Speaker 1: much about this, actually almost nothing, But I'm just kind
54:25
Speaker 1: of playing devil's advocate here. A lot of people were
54:29
Speaker 1: trying to discredit Garrison for whatever reason. And I'm not
54:33
Speaker 1: going to mention political figures today. But in the last
54:37
Speaker 1: week there's claims coming out from three decades ago with
54:41
Speaker 1: no corroboration, and it gets media attention. So how do
54:47
Speaker 1: you how do you really evaluate it? And I haven't
54:52
Speaker 1: read the statements of him and his brother, so I'm.
54:55
Speaker 3: Asking, well, you know, it's not a large part of
55:00
Speaker 3: what I talk about Jim Garrison. I do mention in
55:02
Speaker 3: my book, but at some point I will publish the
55:06
Speaker 3: interviews with the with with the person who was fondled
55:10
Speaker 3: and his family. Quite detailed interviews that are on in
55:15
Speaker 3: the official Lambert papers. They're quite convincing and quite you
55:20
Speaker 3: know certain and this was a very prominent and complete
55:23
Speaker 3: with names. Will name the family, but it was a
55:27
Speaker 3: prominent Catholic family. I would say that, you know, there's
55:31
Speaker 3: other there's lots of other evidence. I think Garrison was
55:35
Speaker 3: closeted in some degree. It's unfortunate me explain why he
55:39
Speaker 3: went after people like Clay Shaw. I don't know. Garrison
55:45
Speaker 3: was a complicated man.
55:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, even in the book, there's of course, you know,
55:52
Speaker 2: this is Dan Andrew's son. Supposedly he said that his
55:55
Speaker 2: father was was bisexual, which yeah, you know, I can understand.
56:02
Speaker 2: You know that he was basically the go to representative
56:05
Speaker 2: for for that community back then, you know, when after
56:08
Speaker 2: they were arrested, and you know, I on another show
56:12
Speaker 2: that I do with Doug called Quick Hits, we had
56:15
Speaker 2: h O Rldge on the show and we were talking
56:18
Speaker 2: to him because apparently there was I don't know what
56:21
Speaker 2: you think about this, but there was actually a real
56:25
Speaker 2: person named Clay Clai born Bertrand back then. And then
56:33
Speaker 2: we came across another document that that basically it came
56:40
Speaker 2: from a journalist I think with Life magazine at the time,
56:43
Speaker 2: and this was an FBI document, and he was saying
56:46
Speaker 2: that the term clay Bertram was basically a cry for
56:50
Speaker 2: a generic like cry for help back then. You know,
56:53
Speaker 2: if you said, if you told somebody, you know, hey,
56:55
Speaker 2: you know Clay Bertrand you're in trouble and you need help,
57:00
Speaker 2: and it was and it happened in like several different
57:02
Speaker 2: gay communities, like each one would have their own kind
57:05
Speaker 2: of clay Bertrand uh, you know thing to where it
57:09
Speaker 2: was more of a covert way for them to you know,
57:14
Speaker 2: basically explained that they needed help. And each community had
57:17
Speaker 2: like a different kind of of Clay Bertrand or a
57:20
Speaker 2: Tom Smith or you know Jack Booth or or or
57:24
Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. I was just curious to
57:27
Speaker 2: what you thought about, you know, the real klay Bertrand
57:30
Speaker 2: and this whole uh possible possible use of clay Bertrand
57:36
Speaker 2: as a as a as a white there was a.
57:38
Speaker 3: Real klay Bertrand, but he was as straight he was see,
57:41
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with anything. But there was a
57:43
Speaker 3: Clay Bertrand, that's for sure. I've I've I've gotten a
57:47
Speaker 3: lot of documents about him. I don't believe that the
57:50
Speaker 3: story about Clay Bertrand being a signal or signed for
57:54
Speaker 3: gay people to use, that that came from Lauren Schilder,
57:57
Speaker 3: who told the FBI that and I each buy a
58:00
Speaker 3: lot of FBI a lot of stuff, which I don't
58:02
Speaker 3: really buy. I don't. I don't believe that's really really true.
58:06
Speaker 3: It may have been a code word that maybe uh
58:09
Speaker 3: Dean Andrews used about his gay clients. I'm not sure,
58:15
Speaker 3: but I don't. The one thing we do know is
58:17
Speaker 3: that clay Shaw was not Clay Berthland.
58:20
Speaker 1: Okay, well, Fred, I I came across an interesting document
58:24
Speaker 1: and this is a great uh segue here or not segue,
58:30
Speaker 1: just relating to what we're talking about. And I'm sure
58:32
Speaker 1: you've seen this document before.
58:34
Speaker 3: This is FBI memo from so I have I have
58:37
Speaker 3: a better version of that with the with with no reactions.
58:40
Speaker 3: I yes, I've seen it and posted it.
58:44
Speaker 1: Great, so great, So I'm happy. H So this was
58:47
Speaker 1: Mark second sixty seven. Clay Shaw was arrested the day before.
58:52
Speaker 2: Correctly, right, that's.
58:53
Speaker 3: Right, and and so thirteen oh nine dash she is
58:56
Speaker 3: Joseph Auster.
58:59
Speaker 1: Okay, well, well look, I'm going to read it before
59:02
Speaker 1: you answer for the audience. On February twenty four, sixty seven,
59:07
Speaker 1: we received information from Aaron Cohne and from No. Thirteen
59:11
Speaker 1: oh nine, which you say is Joseph Auster, that Clay
59:14
Speaker 1: Shaw is identical with an individual by the name of
59:16
Speaker 1: Clay Bertrand who allegedly was in contact with Dean Andrews,
59:20
Speaker 1: New Orleans attorney and connection with the rb oswall blah
59:22
Speaker 1: blah blah. But the interesting thing is February twenty four
59:26
Speaker 1: to sixty seven is twenty four, is a week before
59:31
Speaker 1: March first. So they're receiving this information from two sources
59:37
Speaker 1: saying that Shaw was Bertrand about six days before he
59:44
Speaker 1: was arrested Clay Shaw. So interesting that this document exists.
59:49
Speaker 3: So what do you make of that? Oh, it's it's
59:51
Speaker 3: really there's nothing. There's nothing to this document because if
59:53
Speaker 3: you look at the underlying documents that actually talk in
59:57
Speaker 3: detail about Aaron Cohne and Joseph Austri that support this document,
1:00:02
Speaker 3: they had no they had no They were just saying
1:00:05
Speaker 3: things they had heard, and you know, they had no
1:00:07
Speaker 3: actual information themselves. They had no inside knowledge that that
1:00:12
Speaker 3: that Sean was bertrand it was just things they had
1:00:14
Speaker 3: heard in the grapevine, but they had no actual knowledge.
1:00:17
Speaker 3: And I post the actual documents about Auster and about
1:00:21
Speaker 3: Aaron Cohne in related relations to this document all my
1:00:26
Speaker 3: on my blog.
1:00:31
Speaker 5: Man.
1:00:33
Speaker 2: I don't want to give away everything in your book.
1:00:34
Speaker 2: I want people to go buy it. And and the
1:00:36
Speaker 2: link is in the description it's the Heritage of Nonsense.
1:00:41
Speaker 2: And and before we go, Fred, I wanted to let
1:00:43
Speaker 2: everybody know to check out your website on the Trail
1:00:46
Speaker 2: of Delusion dot com. You can find all things Fred Again.
1:00:49
Speaker 2: Link is in the description. Thank you, and Fred give
1:00:53
Speaker 2: everybody just just a tiny little preview of your Lancer
1:00:57
Speaker 2: presentation this year, my.
1:01:00
Speaker 3: Lancer presentation is going to be on the statsy files
1:01:03
Speaker 3: of Richard Kse Neguel So Miguel was unfortunately arrested traveling
1:01:09
Speaker 3: through He was on his way to Berlin from Zurich
1:01:12
Speaker 3: and he neglected to get a transit visa for East Germany.
1:01:15
Speaker 3: This was in nineteen sixty eight, and so he was
1:01:18
Speaker 3: arrested by the East Germans and he was held for
1:01:21
Speaker 3: around four months. And so I made an application. I
1:01:25
Speaker 3: got his stassy files and I'm going to discuss what's
1:01:30
Speaker 3: in those files at Lancer. After my presentation at Lancer,
1:01:34
Speaker 3: I'm going to post the entire Stassy file on my
1:01:37
Speaker 3: website with a translation.
1:01:43
Speaker 2: Nice.
1:01:44
Speaker 1: Having that, Rob, we may as well do our Lancer
1:01:49
Speaker 1: promo since we have mister Fred here, and just tell
1:01:54
Speaker 1: everyone about the schedule for Lancer.
1:01:57
Speaker 3: And of course if you get your.
1:01:58
Speaker 1: Tickets, use Gunman code Gunman ten for ten percent off
1:02:02
Speaker 1: and that includes virtual. We have Mike Swanson, Sarah, Jordan Heinz.
1:02:07
Speaker 1: This is on Friday, Brian Edwards, Casey Quinnlin, then a
1:02:10
Speaker 1: dinner and a special presentation on Saturday. Dick Russell. Will
1:02:17
Speaker 1: you be in present for that one form?
1:02:21
Speaker 3: I would miss that one for the world.
1:02:25
Speaker 1: I'm going to get up early, no matter how late
1:02:27
Speaker 1: my Friday night is, for that.
1:02:30
Speaker 3: We'll have breakfast with me.
1:02:32
Speaker 1: I will I accept. I'm looking forward to it.
1:02:36
Speaker 3: Breakfast in the hotel. Thank you, yeah.
1:02:40
Speaker 1: Will o'haleran at ten am, Jacob Hornberger eleven, Bob Nelson
1:02:45
Speaker 1: at noon, one pm, Paul Blow, Jeffrey Meek, David Boylan
1:02:49
Speaker 1: two pm, two thirty pm, Carlines, Sabastano, Gale Knicks, Jackson
1:02:54
Speaker 1: and at four pm Dounk Campbell of Quick Hits and
1:02:59
Speaker 1: The Dallas Action and Yours Truly five pm, Bill Simpitch
1:03:04
Speaker 1: with a banquet dinner at seven thirty pm, Saving the
1:03:09
Speaker 1: best for last. On Sunday, Gary Fannon nine, Daniel Sheehan,
1:03:14
Speaker 1: which I'm really looking forward to. Ten am, Andy Keel,
1:03:20
Speaker 1: a lunch break and you Sir. At one pm Fred Littman,
1:03:25
Speaker 1: followed by Eric, Alex Harris, Larry Hancock, David Boylan, Matt DeWitt,
1:03:30
Speaker 1: Brett Holland, Robert and Janet Croden and.
1:03:34
Speaker 2: Paul blow to.
1:03:38
Speaker 1: Kind of close it out there. So and I want
1:03:41
Speaker 1: to say I comment section earlier, and I think I
1:03:47
Speaker 1: heard you say this on one of Rob's earlier shows.
1:03:49
Speaker 1: I was actually re listening earlier today, and not a
1:03:53
Speaker 1: lot of people conferences invite researchers with other opinions onto
1:04:02
Speaker 1: the as speakers. And I really like what Lancer is
1:04:06
Speaker 1: doing here because I think, you know, there's no reason
1:04:11
Speaker 1: even if we have different opinions and we we we
1:04:15
Speaker 1: think different things. Of the nine people that you talked about,
1:04:19
Speaker 1: if you can debunk one or two.
1:04:21
Speaker 2: Of them for me, that makes it like I'm all
1:04:25
Speaker 2: for that.
1:04:26
Speaker 3: I'm saying, I'm.
1:04:27
Speaker 1: Saying, I'm hypothetically. I've read three chapters so far.
1:04:30
Speaker 3: And I think I think that, you know, I love
1:04:33
Speaker 3: doing the debunking. I think that a serious jfk IS
1:04:37
Speaker 3: conferences would would have a mixture of people who had
1:04:40
Speaker 3: something important to say. I've broken a lot of things
1:04:43
Speaker 3: on my blog. For instance, the bolton Ford incident, which
1:04:47
Speaker 3: is in my book. I solved that that would have
1:04:51
Speaker 3: made another good presentation at Lancer.
1:04:54
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, that's that's an interesting one for sure.
1:04:59
Speaker 2: So Fred, thanks for joining us again here on the show.
1:05:03
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure again. And if you're going to
1:05:07
Speaker 2: Dallas this year, folks out there, you'd be nice to Fred.
1:05:10
Speaker 2: By Fred your bodyguard.
1:05:12
Speaker 3: And then Joe you can help too, maybe.
1:05:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Joe, make sure nothing happened to you in Dallas, man,
1:05:19
Speaker 2: because you want it then my friend. Uh but no,
1:05:23
Speaker 2: I think you'll be just fine. I think all the
1:05:29
Speaker 2: the crowd you it's probably gonna be the other CAPA
1:05:33
Speaker 2: conference that would give you a lot of grief.
1:05:36
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure.
1:05:39
Speaker 2: But now here Fred, we're gonna end the show with
1:05:41
Speaker 2: Dean Andrews. He always sings and dances. It's out of
1:05:44
Speaker 2: here for the last minute of the show. Once again,
1:05:47
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. Best very much
1:05:50
Speaker 2: new book, and like I said, all the Fred's links
1:05:52
Speaker 2: are in the description below, including his podcast, his website,
1:05:56
Speaker 2: and to buy the book. Heritage is Nonsense and I
1:06:01
Speaker 2: highly recommend it. Thank you again, Fred, thank you, thank you,
1:06:05
Speaker 2: thank you.
1:06:05
Speaker 1: Looking forward to our breakfast.
1:06:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be fun, all right, do you know
1:06:10
Speaker 2: bringing in my friend.
1:06:11
Speaker 6: In perish prison. He dare not talk for the record,
1:06:14
Speaker 6: but he said, come to Bourbon Street and I'll show
1:06:17
Speaker 6: you what I think of the case.
1:06:19
Speaker 3: Thank you.
1:06:41
Speaker 6: The greatest lies are told in the name of truth.
1:06:44
Speaker 6: The greatest crimes are committed in the name of justice.
1:06:47
Speaker 6: The quotation is Jim Garrison's. It could be used for
1:06:50
Speaker 6: him or against him in this strange case.
1:06:53
Speaker 3: Good Night
1:07:03
Speaker 4: Of a