Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | Ep 18 Stuart Lee on why sideways moves can be the smartest career step
Transcript
- Stuart Lee: You know, if if you're if you're ambitious and you want your career to you want you want to keep moving forward in your career, you think it has to be a move up. I disagree with that completely. I think sideways moves are sometimes the best thing you can do because you you can pick up different ways of working, you can get a better idea of how a a whole organisation works. and that really benefited for me, moving around so so you had the the event stuff and then you had the acquisition marketing stuff and then you had innovation, creative, project management. and and and that that kind of broadened my my horizons. Adam: Really pleased to welcome Stuart onto the charity changemakers podcast today. Stuart, thanks so much for joining us. Stuart Lee: Good to be with you, Adam. Thank you so much for having me. Adam: It's great to have you here. And like I do every week, always give the guests the opportunity to take a minute or so to tell us who you are and what you do. Stuart Lee: Yep, so so I'm Stuart Lee. I work for Tier Fund. I'm the director of global fundraising and communications. I I live in Edinburgh, although Tier Fund is kind of down and mainly down in in London, so I spend a lot of time on the train. and yeah, I've been I've been with Tier Fund for about 10 and a almost eleven years now. but in this Adam: Yeah, okay. Stuart Lee: role on the executive team for Two year or two and a half years. Yeah. Adam: Yes. Yeah, perfect. Yeah. And obviously we're to be diving into that journey and your progression. Obviously not just at TIRFUN, but throughout whole of your career and what that's looked like. But before Stuart Lee: Yeah, sure. Adam: we do that, we've got a few quick fire questions that we send to every guest, the opportunity for us to get to know you a little bit better. So the first one, before we get into all of that big stuff is what does a good weekend or day off look like for yourself? Stuart Lee: Well, I we only moved to Edinburgh a couple of years ago and so like we're still explor my wife and I were still exploring Edinburgh. So like we we just like to get out into the city and go for a coffee, maybe some nice lunch. yeah, we've got the little dog, so go for a nice walk. But it's if if any of your listeners haven't been to Edinburgh, please go. It's such a beautiful place. so yeah, we're still in those that sort of honeymoon period of living in living in Edinburgh, yeah. Adam: Yeah, superb. No, that's great. And what's something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Stuart Lee: he is sitting next to me just now. His name is Murdo and he's a little poodle Bishon Freeze Cross, our little dog, Murdo. He is small and and definitely brings me a a disproportionate amount joy. Yeah. Despite all the walks and the storms that I've had to do lately. Adam: Yeah, that's right. The reality of having a dog kicks in during these next few months. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Adam: yeah, that's right indeed. good, I'm amazed that you can trust your dog to be in the room. I have to remove mine because... Yeah, yeah, no more. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Well he's fast asleep. He's an old dog guy. Adam: Yeah, yeah. We've got Buzz the Cock Spaniel who as soon as he would see a bird outside the window here, he'd be barking and all sorts of stuff. yeah, that's great. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Adam: And Stuart, what's one thing that people just sort of always assume about your job that just isn't true? Stuart Lee: it's a that's a tricky question, but I think I think people assume because I'm a director of fundraising, they assume that I'm just I spend all my time drinking coffee with people, you know, telling them about tier fund. And I wish that was the case. I really wish that was the case. I s I spent a lot the truth is I spent a lot of my time leading people who do that that work and and kind of working on working on the the the the team and the structure and the strategy and and those sort of things. And I I kinda wish I was I s I I'm a people person, so I wish I was out there meeting donors, meeting supporters and drinking coffee with them. but unfortunately I I don't get a huge amount of time for that. Yeah. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. Well, thank you for answering those. And this always feels like a big question when I throw it at people, but I don't think we've ever had two answers the same in doing 40 plus shows now, but how did you find yourself working in the charity sector? How did it all start for you? Stuart Lee: Ooh, so we have to go back quite a while. so so when I was studying I so I was studying marketing in Glasgow many, many years ago. And and I was on that trajectory like, you know, going into business and and want wanting to wanting to be in in marketing and in business. and I and I got into my final year And I remember going to a careers fair, and this is just my experience. I know everyone's different, but my experience, I went to the Careers Fair and and and I was going around speaking to different big well-known companies that were recruiting. This was before 2008, so there was a you know, there was a lot of recruitment for for jobs for Adam: Thank Stuart Lee: graduates, and I don't know if that's the case anymore, but it was it was a case of going around speaking to them and I just had this feeling in my stomach that like Don't think this is what I'm supposed be doing. and I actually my dad, way back when I was growing up, when I was a kid, he was a relief worker and and he worked Adam: Mm. Stuart Lee: in humanitarian aid, and and so I lived overseas, I lived in Southeast Asia as a child, and so I kind of had this in the back of my mind that I've seen my dad do something very different. and and I saw the how much value that added to his life. This was in the 80s. and so that was in my mind in my final year of uni. And and I I took a radical step and I said, okay, I'm gonna go and do a master's degree in in disaster management and sustainable development, just as as far from marketing business Adam: Yeah. Sure. Stuart Lee: as I could I could get. So I went into that, I did that master's one year, it was amazing, absolutely life changing. It was it was it was phenomenal. I I did that in Newcastle and then From there I went out to South Sudan and worked in as a a humanitarian relief worker for for a year, South Sudan, a time when there was a lot of conflict and and it was yeah, it was a very I mean that's I could talk I could talk a lot about that year. I learned more in that year than probably Adam: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Stuart Lee: any year since. but that was my that was my move into into the the charity sector. I I came out of that realizing okay, maybe I'm not the I'm not the best person to be on the ground, like like d running projects, and and and made the decision that actually back in the UK I quite enjoy sharing stories, I quite enjoy like advocating for people who are in poverty. and that that was my my career from from then on, the past like really 20 years now. Adam: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. that's quite the way in, isn't it? Go from education straight straight to South Sudan. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Adam: Yeah, boots on the floor. Like you say, I'm sure get go tons of experience that was just really, really valuable. So, so from that year, what then came what came next? Stuart Lee: So yeah, so I c I came back and w I was with a a s a an organisation in South Sudan that gave me a job. I applied for a job Adam: Yeah, okay. Stuart Lee: as as kind of head of Scotland for that for that charity. and that was that was that was a fun experience. I did the I did the job interview on a satellite phone in the middle of middle of nowhere in South Sudan. where I had to I've just got this recollection of I had to stand in the midday sun for two hours because if I went in Adam: is. Stuart Lee: if I went indoors this the signal cut and I was like literally melting during this interview and I was like do they realize what I'm going through to try and to try and and get this job. So anyway, so that was successful. So I came back and I I worked for another five years and that was kind of head of Scotland so work it was a Christian Adam: Okay. Stuart Lee: organization so working with churches and sharing with them about about places like South Sudan and and and other work and generating awareness, interest, people to go and and and work, raising money, all all of all of that. So so that was that was after that was after South Sudan and and really I felt For me there was a a a key moment because I I wasn't sure whether I would I was supposed to keep going working overseas. I I applied for a job in Afghanistan and it was looking really positive that that's what I would do. but I ha I did have a recollection as I started working in in the UK, engaging with people, and doing that sort of advocating for people in extreme poverty, raising money, etcetera. I I realised that I am way more effective at that. I'm Adam: Yeah. Yes. Stuart Lee: much more effective. And although the there was a big part of me that just I loved I love working in places cross-culturally. I love I new experiences, experiencing new cultures and I love getting you know rolling up my sleeves and and and being busy in that way. I felt like I was being having more impact in Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: the UK and that was a bit of a light bulb moment where I said, you know what, I'm going to commit to I'm gonna commit to being a a voice for people in extreme poverty Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: and and rallying resources, rallying whatever support I can in the in the UK. So so that was that was a a a role I did for for about five years. and Adam: Yeah. And was that where that, guess, that first exposure to say fundraising, I guess, taking elements Stuart Lee: Yeah. Adam: of that marketing qualification degree that you've got as well and sort of bringing, bringing that all together. Stuart Lee: I think so. And I think it's it is. I I remember so like I went from that role to then working for the church and I worked for the church for a few years in in Scotland. and I and I got to the point in my career where I was like, What am I doing? Like I've got I've been a relief worker, I've worked in the church, I've worked for in sort of influencing and and know the fundraising etc and and it Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: felt like it was not making a lot of sense until I got my first job at tier fund Adam: Yep. Stuart Lee: where I was like okay this is the Venn diagram of humanitarian work which is what Tier Fund's all about the church which is what tier fund's really passionate about and that's like how how we work is through is through the church and then the sort of marketing I use marketing every single day. For the past 10 years, and whether it's with event stuff, whether it's with actual campaigns, etc., etc., I use marketing and and the principles of marketing and in in everything that I do. So it was it was a an interesting experience. Through my twenties, Adam: Mm-hmm. Stuart Lee: I tried various different things and it didn't seem to all match up. And then at the end of my twenties, I got this job first my first job with Tier Fund, and it was like a wow, I'm now if everything all my experience works for this role and this organization that I'm in now. So that was Adam: Yeah, yeah, that's me. Yeah. Stuart Lee: that was quite that was quite cool. I it wasn't planned. It wasn't Adam: Yeah, sure. Stuart Lee: you know it just kind of all came together quite nicely. But the what Adam: Yeah, yeah. Stuart Lee: was what was really encouraging was and and maybe maybe there's people some of your listeners are in this situation it when you find that place where it's like I'm using I'm using bits and pieces from various experiences I've had and various lessons that I've learned. And it's coming together and it's really, it's really productive and it and it's working and I'm really enjoying this job. When you get to that point, it's it kind of it you can look back and say, I'm glad for some of the chaos, or I'm glad for Adam: Yeah, sure. Stuart Lee: some of the things that didn't make sense, or I did this role for two years and it It's completely different from the role I was doing before. It makes it all make sense and it and it's worth it. Do So I I I Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: think especially in younger years, in your twenties, trying lots of things and going for new experiences I think is really important. Adam: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, like I say, at the time it can feel quite chaotic in a bit of turmoil and clearly a hard slog, but yeah, the beauty of being able to look back and reflect, you can see how that's helped shape. I guess, yeah, we'll pick out more of that as we speak, I'm sure. I guess I'm interested as to what that first role, so 10 and a half years ago, walking into TIFF, and what that first role was, what that looked like. Stuart Lee: Yeah, so it was a jack of all trades, really. So we we Tier Fund has a Scotland office and there was maybe half a dozen to a dozen people there. and my role was events manager, community fundraising manager, and volunteer manager, which involved like we've got speakers that go out and speak in churches, we've got church reps, we've got events volunteers, all kinds of community fundraising volunteers. So it was three, I would say three jobs tied into one. and it was busy. It was busy. there was, you know, I did that for about three and a half years. I think one year I I managed 50 events in a year, you know, so Adam: Yeah, okay. Stuart Lee: everything from from sort of big weeklong festivals in the summer to you know smaller sort of fifty person events where you do you do night after night for for for for a week for example. and and really enjoyed it. I was I was incredibly busy. I think, you know, there was some times where I was working like 70, 80 hours in a week. but but not complaining because I just felt like this is this is fun. You know, it was a it was a really fun job. It was on the road. I was n are almost never at my desk. I was out out there meeting people, out there running events, out there training Adam: Mm. Stuart Lee: volunteers doing all that stuff. but one of the things that I I I learned really quickly and I'm glad I did this was I I sat down with my boss, amazing person called Lynn Patterson. Shout out to Lynn Patterson, she was an amazing boss and just just the person that I needed at that time in my career. And I said to her, You've given me so many Targets and so so much such breadth of work. What's the number one thing? As I said to her, what is the main thing? What's the number one thing that if I achieve this, that's the main thing. You know, not everything else is kind of in consequential is one thing, you know, just just kind of fishing, trying to get a bit of focus. And she said, she said there is one thing that that's more important than anything else right now. We need more people giving by direct debit to tier five. need more people giving regularly regular commitment to tier fund. Even ten pounds a month, something like that. It would just be really healthy for us as an organization. And and it's something that we're not at that time we weren't doing very well at. and that gave me focus. And and I was able to say, okay, I've got I've got these ten different activities that I'm responsible for. How do I prioritize it? How do I like focus it in and and just and I was able to over that time make that that that the main focus and and and bring everything under that and i it was able to I was able to to achieve quite a lot then. Able to achieve quite a lot. Yeah. Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And from that fundraising point of view, I obviously, you say, you've got good people around you. sort of, and obviously, Tefans is a big organization. You sort of learning as you go, yeah, how you sort of, guess, know, finding your feet in the fundraising world. Or is it just, yeah, that by experience. Stuart Lee: I think yeah, very much so. I I I had good people around me. and the way Tear Fund was set up, I was working in Scotland with a small team, but was part of a much bigger UK Adam: Yeah, of course. Stuart Lee: UK team. So there were, I'd go down to England and I'd spend time with their events people and learn what I can. Very, very, very high quality. some amazing people in the in the UK team, but back then coming in still fairly early in my career I was able to learn a lot from them. and then the other thing was just hard work, you know, hard work and putting in the hours. There was no substitute for that. There really isn't. And and and constant learning reviews, you know, I always every single time I put I did a project it was like, okay, what went well, what didn't go well, what do we do next time? And then don't sit on that, just move, move straight away. Okay, we're doing it again, but we're gonna do it better. I I got really involved in every single element of a of a project, you know. if I was doing an event I would be like I'd be the one out, you know, I'd be putting I'd be putting the tier fund literature on every single seat just the way that it's supposed to be, all the way through to, you know, whatever. But I I wanted to make sure I understood how everything works. and that was that was why that you know, it took a lot of time and effort. and then because you put in the time nice and early and you you learn your lessons and you get better, then it becomes a lot easier. And it got to the state the reason I left that job was actually bec it it became too comfort zone. I was too Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: I was too used to I was doing the same thing, I was in my comfort zone and I wanted to stretch and I wanted I wanted more challenge. So that was by by year three, I was like, Okay, I'm ready to Adam: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I think one of my, my reflections, obviously, I a lot of people in the sector, obviously, across the larger Christian organizations, that opportunity to develop in an organization is, is, there, you know, obviously, you know, you've introduced yourself as the director, you know, leading this team, obviously, we're talking about what feels like a more or less entry level role into the organization. And obviously, there's been a, you know, there's been 10 years in between the start and where you are now. It'd be interesting to hear as well as clearly good people around you helping develop you and believing in you and giving you those opportunities, what that sort of has looked like within Tearfun for yourself. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Yeah, and just b before I go into that, I think last week I was I I was meeting with all our leaders down in London and I spoke about how important it is to let young staff members try things and fail. and I think I think the past few years since like since COVID, like things have been really difficult in our sector. And there's more reluctance to fail, obviously, because because when things are difficult and when there's a difficult external environment, your your instinct is to stay safe and to resist any risk. but I really benefited from being allowed to try things within guardrails, you know, Adam: Yeah. Sure. Stuart Lee: try things and fail and and learn and then try again and then you know. So I was able to do that and it was like being in a greenhouse as a as a air you I came in and it was twenty nine, so it was twenty nine to to thirty two, just r really able to try things and and and test test and learn, etcetera. Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: and and I worry about that now, just generally in in our sector, are we allowing younger people to try things and to learn and to and to fail. So that was a real that was a real benefit that I had. Adam: Yeah, sure. Stuart Lee: I was, and and actually I was able to find success because of that. So there were things that I Adam: Hmm. Stuart Lee: was I was doing in Scotland that weren't, other people in the UK weren't doing, I w on my own. I I think there was one year where I r I raised more money on my own than a team of ten elsewhere. So it was just but not because I'm so great, but because I was given those opportunities to be creative, to try things that hadn't been tried. So that was great. So what Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: what happened then was COVID happened. so the everyone started working from home and I'm in Scotland and I I wanted a UK role. I wanted to be able to go and progress and and and I was allowed to do that for the first time without having to Adam: Yes. Stuart Lee: move to to London. Previously I would have had to move to London, but yeah. So COVID happened and I applied for a job that I could do from at the time from Glasgow. and that was head of events. I've had seven roles in tier fund. so I have to try and remember how it all went. Yeah, Adam: Yes, yeah, Yeah, no, it's tricky to remember. Stuart Lee: so so it was head of events and vol it was like kind of what I was doing in Scotland, but for the whole of the UK basically. Fundraising through events, through churches, etc. And and I and for the first time I was a team leader. and this was so this was like early 2020. and I had a team of about eight or nine, maybe ten at that point. and I did that for a while. That was that was that was really good, quite challenging obviously through COVID. and then I I kind of moved around I went for a few years of of moving around. So I I I moved into a role that was head of acquisition fundraising, which was that was going back to my roots of marketing. And then innovation fundraising. And that that was a that was a fun role. I was on my own. If you might like the the metaphor is I was just put in a cupboard and say, you're in charge of innovation, good luck. And Adam: Yes, yeah. Stuart Lee: a bit more support, but that was kind of I was able to like come up with some new fundraising ideas, test things, etc. That was great. Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: so I was ex I was getting this UK-wide experience in different departments, leading teams. getting a bit more budget, a a bit more authority, and and yeah, again, just kind of staying at the same level but moving around. Now that was Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that exposure, I guess, is just really valuable, Stuart Lee: Absolutely. And and that I would really advise that for people, if you get I think people are are always thinking you need to keep moving up. You know, if if you're if you're ambitious and you want your career to you want you want to keep moving forward in your career, you think it has to be a move up. I disagree with that completely. I think sideways moves are sometimes the best thing you can do because you you can pick up different ways of working, you can get a better idea of how a a whole organisation works. and that really benefited for me, moving around so so you had the the event stuff and then you had the acquisition marketing stuff and then you had innovation, creative, project management. and and and that that kind of broadened my my horizons. Adam: Yeah, absolutely. And within your career development at TIFF, were there other things at play that were helping you make those steps? there's people coming alongside you or training? I'm always interested, and guess listeners are, clearly listeners are as well, which is why they keep coming back, as to what things have helped you sort of develop in your Stuart Lee: Yeah, I and it it does looking back I d I think I did have opportunities and I was with all these changes I had to apply and it was extremely competitive and and I was successful in applying for for for roles that were competitive. And I think I think for me I've I've always for many years I've I've thought about Patrick Lencioni's hung hungry, humble, smart. Adam: Yep, OK. Stuart Lee: I don't know if you've come across that. It's the the ideal team player. it's a book by Patrick Lencioni. It's called The Ideal Team Player. Highly recommend it. You can get the gist of it in half an hour or less. it'll save you reading the whole book. but the idea is that the ideal team player is someone that is that that it demonstrates hunger, that they're they're really passionate about the cause and they're they're hungry for for more, they want they they're gonna throw themselves at things, they're gonna try things. Think that hunger is really important. Humble, that's all about the team success, it's all about the organization success, not personal success, and so ego doesn't come in. and then smart, smart is people smart, good with people, investing time in relationships. and and for those so those three things have really been a bit of a guiding principle for me. Do you know? And and taking the time, you know, I when I'm in. Scotland, I take the time to go and be with be with people in England, be with teammates, learn, build good good relationships. that's Adam: Mm-hmm. Stuart Lee: been that's been really key. Really key. And I think I think that Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: a a mixture of those things have helped me helped me in my career, helped me when it's got when it's come to like applying for things and and demonstrating like I can do this. Adam: Yes. Yeah. Stuart Lee: so so I think yeah, I I think There's probably a few things. I I have had good people around me. I've never had until recently I haven't had official mentoring or anything like that. I've started that recently, it's been really helpful. but but I think just having the right attitude Adam: Yeah, that's great. Stuart Lee: ha has really helped. Yeah. So so yeah. Adam: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, that's yeah, yeah, really, really interesting. I think that's, you know, we see that time and time again, don't we, where the sector for someone who's got that right, right approach will, you know, an organization or the sector will back them and help support them and there's opportunity to grow and grow. think, you know, a reflection would be reasonably, reasonably quickly as well, through career, obviously, like you say, you had that opportunity within Tierfarm, which is, which was, I guess, has been an advantage in that, in that sense. So yeah, I guess I'm interested. Stuart Lee: For you. Adam: Yeah, I guess a little bit interesting, you started to talk a little bit about culture there as well. And obviously these post COVID years, quite a shift in the way that Tearfund works, right? You know, from like you say, these opportunities weren't there for you beforehand, you know, being, you know, a bit more London centric in that Stuart Lee: Yeah. Adam: sense to now being, you know, working a bit more remotely, or very remotely. Yeah, but how do you instill that culture, you know, that you're talking about across an organization? Stuart Lee: Yeah, I I think what we're finding is people being remo more remote is the new normal. I just personally I just don't see that changing. I think the way technology is, the way people have got used to a certain way of working with work-life balance, etcetera. I think people being ro more remote is just the way it it it is gonna be. so What we do and how and how how I lead in this is to make sure that people are carving out in person time and that it's non-negotiable, as as much as possible, non-negotiable. Bring your teams together at team level, at group level, at organizational level, whatever that looks like, and invest in it and and have it booked out in advance, a year in advance. This is when we're gonna meet together, etc. but not to I think one of our my learnings with this is When we meet, it's for building relationship, working on culture, sharing vision and being creative. It's not for doing work that you can do online. You know, it's not for just going through an agenda and a to-do list and and you know, so so I think that's been a bit of a journey for us. It's like how do we use the time that we've got together? Adam: Yes. Yeah. Stuart Lee: and and that's so we've just done two days in person last week. It was very much, I think one of the days we just literally said, here is two of our biggest challenges. Go. It's like, you know, break into groups and do some brainstorming, et cetera, et cetera. And that stuff in person is is so valuable. So Adam: Yes, yeah. Stuart Lee: I think I think that is that is it. I mean, I ha obviously, you know, I've been working for tier fund from Scotland from day one. So I've I've had that Adam: Mm-hmm. Stuart Lee: advantage of saying I'm I'm kind of used to this and and like I said at the beginning, I go up and down the train route from Edinburgh to London a lot and that's just the reality is I wanna be make sure I'm with people as much as I can, Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: but recognise that I'm I am I am hybrid, yeah. Adam: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And how did the director role come about then? Like you said, mean, guess, you know, application competitive process. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Adam: Yeah, and then that step into the role, what, two, two and a bit years ago. Stuart Lee: Well, it was a bit different because and I probably should have mentioned this earlier. One of the one of the things that's really helped me and it's just it's just the way I work is I don't stay in my lane. and and I don't like I don't want to step on people's toes, but I'm interested in other parts of the organization. So I've always carved out some capacity to work on things that aren't my job. And and I've done that for years. And because of that, my supervisors have always known Stuart can take that on. Stuart can take that on. Stuart can take that on. Even though I'm I've got a full time job and I'm I'm busy doing my main thing, I always c I always make sure I'm I'm somewhere involved. So what happened was the director at the time, I could see I could see a gap. I could see that she needed some extra help that was generalist help. And and I I offered her, I said, I said, listen, I I would like to come and work directly for you. And I'd like I I you know basically, I mean I'm making it sound really simple. This was a long conversation over a few weeks, but basically I together we wrote a role that didn't exist before and we called it chief of staff for the fundraising director. and I I I then moved into a role, it was a new role, we just figured it and it was it was but it was really needed because we were going through a big restructure as an organization and we're working out Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: what does our new organizational design look like and fundraising. Adam: Mm-hmm. Stuart Lee: So I said for this season I think I I there's a there's a role sitting under you, leading on various generalist projects around change management, etc. So so that that was the step up from sort of the middle management To working directly with an executive director. And I did that for two years. It was an amazing Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: job. So I was chief chief of staff, fundraising, and communications. And learned a lot about change management, learned a lot about strategy, about budgets, all of that. I was, you know, almost every day meeting with the director and getting that one-to-one Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: exposure. That was that then led to when the director moved on. very competitive pro process but I was able to apply for the job and and and and was successful. Now that was a bit of a leapfrog there was an SM senior senior leadership team there was a director then the senior leadership team then me who Adam: Sure. Stuart Lee: was trying to work in working fairly directly with director but I was able to to go for that job and get it despite not having so I kind of skipped one I skipped one level Adam: skips skips level yeah Stuart Lee: but I think the lesson there is is just to not hold back if you see an opportunity if you see a gap talk to talk to a leader talk to the director Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: I see a gap I think I can I can make this work I think we can fill it. There's nothing now in the position I'm in, there's nothing I love more than when someone sits down for a coffee with me and someone did this last week and they handed me a proposal and they said, I've thought about this, I can see a problem and I I can see a solution here you know and someone handed me like four page paper it was like been working Adam: Yes. Yeah. Stuart Lee: on this and and and I there's nothing better because directors are looking for people that have solutions, Anyway. Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, think you're absolutely right. And it's that hunger, isn't it? You know, don't just because we've all worked with people that, you know, will come and present the problem. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Adam: And, you know, we'll be in that, you know, pit of despair. But yeah, like you say, when they come with that solution, you can see how to fix things, you Stuart Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Adam: know, on the whole, obviously, any organization and an organization, the charity say it doesn't matter whether it's tier fund size or, you know, half a million local organization, we're always stretch resources. And yeah, whether it's that opportunity to fix things, people will deliver. So yeah, what's that step then into the director level role? mean, like you say, continue to be challenging across the sector, I guess, from funding at times and changes across the sector. And I guess, you know, that transition for you personally, as well as an organization clearly that was transitioning in this sort of more remote hybrid way of working. Stuart Lee: Yeah. Yeah, that was it was a big it was a big step up. So it was the beginning of twenty twenty four. We'd just gone we'd just just about completed a fairly extensive change process and a bit restructuring. so I was coming in to to lead a group that had gone through quite a difficult season. And so the the focus was then how do we rebuild? How do we rebuild and get renewed vision, renewed energy. how do we start to fundraising was difficult for a few years, how do we start to build on some successes and and to really resort Tier Fund is a life saving organization. One point two million people last year received life saving interventions from Tier Fund, which is incredible. But as a fundraiser, that's what that's what drives us. we don't want to be a successful fundraising team. for the sake of whatever, it's it's it's because of the of the the mission, because of what we're achieving, saving lives, transforming communities, transforming lives. So we really wanted to see a turnaround. And that was the beginning, that was been the past two years is how do we how do we turn things around? And and that's been a a fantastic process. Part of it was was hiring in some really good people. Adam, thank you so much for your help with that. Adam: Yeah. Stuart Lee: we've it's sort of rebuilding a leadership team for fundraising and communications. we've also done a bit of our our brand refresh so people that have been tracking with tier fund might notice slight changes in how we communicate and how how we how we we come across. And that's been really good. and then we've been looking outside of the UK, how can we raise more money globally? Because our our team is responsible for global fundraising, not just UK. so there's been a lot of really stimulating, exciting work, and hard work as well. obviously change is never is never easy, but but we're in a good place now, you know. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And as you reflect, I guess on that journey and that growing the team, growing the organization, what that's looked like, is there a lesson that you've learned the hard way that's helped shape you into the leader that you are today? Stuart Lee: my my honest answer to this is that I think we're we're only as good as the people that we have in the organization. We're we're we're we're a group of people who who have a a shared mission to raise money and to to rally to rally volunteers, whatever that looks like. And we're only as good as the people that we have, you know, on on on the team. and so my my biggest lesson actually is to make sure I'm not just saying this because I'm talking to you, make sure you hire well. Make sure you hire well. And that goes way back to early leadership, you know, maybe like 2019, Adam: Mm-hmm. Stuart Lee: 2018 for me, where like team leadership where you know, I maybe rushed a recruitment and brought someone on board who wasn't right. and the impact that has can be really, really difficult. And so And so I would say in this role I'm in now, you I've I lead a team of 160 people. and and and my my number one thing is like when it comes to hiring someone, I'd rather hire no one than hire the wrong person. I really would. I Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Stuart Lee: I would rather we we cut some of the work than than hire the wrong person. And that might sound obvious, but it's really hard. It's really hard to get that right. and and people like yourself who really helped. making sure that you just take that little bit of extra try, make making sure that if it if you need to go stop, stop, wait a year, try again, hiring well, my goodness, that is that is a that is a big one. Yeah. Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great. just to reassure, I didn't ask for that answer, but it's Stuart. Perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And if people want to find out more about Tearfund, get involved, ways in which they can support, what's the best route for people to do that? Stuart Lee: Yeah, tierfund.org, you can check out our our website. We are about to launch our Christmas appeal where we're focusing on South Sudan, a place that I know well that Adam: Yeah, brilliant. Stuart Lee: as I mentioned, I used to work, and that's we're we're focusing on refugees, and there's some some really harrowing stories that are coming out of South Sudan. But Tier Fund's there on the ground and we're providing that life-saving assistance if anyone's interested. do do do jump onto our our website or reach out to a member of our staff. Adam: Yeah, brilliant. We'll make sure that there's links in the podcast show notes so people can come through to yourself and obviously through to the fund as well. So, no, that's great. Stuart, look, these conversations can always be at least twice the length than the time that we have available. But I'm so grateful for you coming on the show and sharing a little bit of your career journey. Lots of insights, lots of really helpful things there for our listeners. So thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Stuart Lee: Thank you. Good to be with you. Thank you.