Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / 100 Children, No Bookings—and Nobody Turned Away | Helen Picha | EAW 60

Transcript

100 Children, No Bookings—and Nobody Turned Away | Helen Picha | EAW 60 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
0:05
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
0:12
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
0:16
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
0:44
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
0:46
I have Helen Peacher today, someone I've known for a long time, and
0:49
whose work I've much admired.
0:51
She runs the groundbreaking, we could say record-setting Liskinnet Farm in County
1:01
Limerick, just on the border of Limerick and Cork in Ireland, which I would say
1:06
has really provided the cutting edge for the best practice in equine-assisted
1:14
therapies for probably the last 15 years.
1:17
And it was started, as you know, by our mutual dear friend, David Doyle,
1:21
and you have stepped into his shoes.
1:25
Yes, I have.
1:25
Which are, it's like stepping into the shoes of giants.
1:28
But you've been working there for years, and if anyone can run it, well, it's
1:31
you, and you've obviously been proving yourself very well the last two years.
1:34
So Helen Peacher welcome to Equine Assisted World.
1:38
Can you tell us who you are, how you got started with this?
1:43
What is Liskinnet?
1:44
Why do you do it?
1:46
Helen Picha: So, Liskinane Equine Centre is, as you said Granagh, County Limerick.
1:51
It's on the borders of Cork and Limerick.
1:53
It s- it opened in 2015.
1:57
I live literally five or six minutes drive from it, and I heard about this.
2:01
Actually, I heard there was this horse whisperer one day over in this place in
2:05
Granagh, which turned out to be you after.
2:08
So you had made your first visit there before I had heard anything
2:11
about Liskinane Equine Centre.
2:13
It had already started, and the building was already in process
2:16
even before I heard about it.
2:18
I was driving past along the road one day, and I saw these two or
2:22
three little ponies in the field, and I says, "Hmm, what's this place?"
2:26
So I kind of inquired about it anyway, and I was told there was going to be
2:29
this equine-assisted for children and adults with autism and intellectual
2:33
disability, and I was interested.
2:36
I said, "How could I get back into horses in a different way from what I
2:40
used to be doing in the racing circuit?"
2:42
So I was informed anyway I had to contact this man called David
2:46
Doyle, and that there was something on in the hall in Granagh.
2:49
There was a fundraiser for the cycling that went on, and I was
2:52
told to, "Go over there now, and you'll meet him there," which I did.
2:55
So I went in anyway and there was a big crowd there, and I was pointed
2:58
out to this man, David Doyle.
3:00
So I went over and introduced myself.
3:02
Didn't say anything about what I, my background was or anything.
3:05
Just said I was very interested in working in Liskinane Equine Centre,
3:10
and didn't know what to make of him.
3:11
He was very quiet.
3:13
And, He's a quiet man, yes â¦ yeah, he was very quiet and summing me
3:16
up, kind of, and he said "Yeah, you should volunteer now first, and we'll
3:20
take it from there, and there will be job opportunities down the line."
3:23
And I says, "Okay, I'll do that."
3:25
So I went away, got on to St.
3:27
Joseph's, filled up my volunteering forms.
3:29
That time it used to take about six months for your Garda vetting to come through,
3:33
so it eventually came through anyway.
3:35
And to make a long story short it was just in the process.
3:39
There was a couple of ponies there, and it was just in the process
3:41
of getting developed in 2015.
3:44
And Garda vetting came through, so I went in and I volunteered every Friday
3:49
for a year while this was in process.
3:51
I remember meeting you in one of those when you came over, and I, that's the
3:55
first time I met you, and I was still a volunteer the first time I met you there.
3:59
And it just kind of went from there.
4:01
Went every Friday.
4:02
So I, I came in with good experience on the equine side but
4:05
very little on the autistic side.
4:08
So I used my every Fridays to learn and develop and started got my job opportunity
4:14
then at the very start, which I did.
4:16
Started three days a week and developed to, within three
4:20
months I went to supervisor.
4:22
So I was under David then for 11 years before the management position
4:26
came up, and then I went for that, and here I am two years on.
4:30
Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's talk a little about what Liskinah is and how it, how it
4:35
evolved, 'cause it, it's a magical place.
4:38
Helen Picha: Yeah
4:39
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and I think anyone who is involved in the equine-assisted
4:41
world needs to know about it- Mm â¦ and needs to know about,
4:44
as you say, the quiet, unassuming, but immensely powerful David Doyle.
4:50
Wonderful.
4:50
I'll just give a little background.
4:51
I was in Limerick, Ireland in 2012 doing a demo of Horse Boy method, and
5:00
this is actually a rather sad story, but one could argue that Liskinah owes
5:05
its life really, and anything Horse Boy and other types of equine-assisted
5:12
in Ireland owe a great debt to a young lady called Shelley Murtagh, who
5:20
organized this demo in Limerick in 2012.
5:24
She had been a working student with us in Texas, and she was
5:28
one of the best we ever had.
5:30
And organized this demo when she went home.
5:33
We were in the UK at the time, so great, we did it.
5:35
And then she came out again to Texas, and she came with her mother, which
5:41
we thought, "This is odd," you know?
5:42
"I wonder why."
5:44
And m- for much shorter this time, okay, but she was by now a friend, so sure
5:51
And something had changed, and we were trying to puzzle it out, and three months
5:58
later she was dead of a brain tumor.
6:00
And we realized, oh my gosh, she had wanted to bring her mother
6:03
out to this place that she had, you know, found happiness.
6:05
And how tragic, you know.
6:07
But at the same time we were glad that we could do that.
6:13
Three years later, I get an email from this man, David Doyle, who says, "I was
6:16
at that demo that that young lady, Shelley Murtagh, organized in, in Limerick.
6:21
You won't remember me.
6:22
You won't remember me, but I've taken your website, the Horse Boy
6:25
website, and to the Irish Parliament and to a local philanthropist.
6:30
And anyway, we've raised three million euros, and we're putting
6:33
in a state-of-the-art center.
6:34
Would you like to come and see it?"
6:36
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
6:36
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm like, well, I don't get emails like that very
6:39
often, so I was like, "Well, sh- yes, I, you know, I would indeed, Mr.
6:43
Doyle."
6:44
And so of course I did, and came and saw Liskinane, which is a, what?
6:51
80-acre old stud farm which had been burned down in the Irish Troubles-
6:56
Mm â¦ and has now been resurrected as a partly residential, partly day center
7:02
doing equine and other services for people with all sorts of neurodiversity.
7:08
And David explained to me whoâ¦
7:11
David is also a, you know, a, as you know, a, a wonderful old-school Irish horseman.
7:16
But he also explained to me, "Rupert the reason I'm doing this is because I, like
7:20
you, have a, a, an autistic daughter who, Caroline, who had this wonderful
7:24
reaction to a horse," the amazing cob lady who is still there, I believe.
7:29
Yeah.
7:29
And you know, "So that's why I thought it might be a good idea."
7:32
And he put this thing into place with a vision, as you know, step in,
7:37
step down, step out, which- Mm-hmm
7:39
meaning that people who- are, are sort of unable to stay at home, perhaps
7:46
they're violent now, perhaps it's just too complex, perhaps the family can't
7:51
cope, ca- they can come and have their own apartment, and then that lasts for
7:56
a certain time, and then they go to a more supported group environment, and
8:01
then they go back to their own home, and then they can cycle through again.
8:06
And this way, it gives a lot more opportunities, but it also gives
8:10
a lot more dignity and doesn't separate families and so on.
8:12
I thought this was a, a groundbreaking idea.
8:16
And so I was deeply impressed, and I met you, you know, very much in those
8:20
early days and saw you really help to build that place up from scratch with
8:25
this, again, this kind of deep old-school Irish, you know, County Limerick, county
8:31
court horse, horse knowledge, which is there in those parts of Ireland and
8:36
marrying that up with a very new approach to what horses could do for people.
8:43
So can you tell us, t- take us through the story.
8:46
Like, w- in those early days at Liskinane, when you were first learning how, what
8:52
was this whole autism thing anyway?
8:55
Take, t- talk us through this, this version of yourself, you know, 13 years
8:59
ago where you're sort of- Yeah â¦ you know, trying to make sense of it all.
9:02
Helen Picha: Mm.
9:03
So I remember when I came in there, so if you're coming from a racing
9:06
background, which is all very fast and, you know, you know there's just
9:10
one way you learn everything, how to get the horse to the racetrack.
9:14
So I came in here, but we'll just say from my own mind of it, I always had a
9:20
a knowledge as to what it was like as a parent of a child with a disability.
9:24
Okay.
9:25
Because when I, when I was 20 years old, I had a little girl called Danielle born
9:29
with spina bifida and hydrocephalus.
9:32
Okay.
9:33
And she lived el- she lived 11 months.
9:35
So from that young age, like the seed was planted in me without even knowing it.
9:40
I was a parent of a child with a disability.
9:43
Got it.
9:43
So I, I had the knowledge of what it felt like to be a parent with a
9:48
child that's so helpless, so how you'd have to trust anyone that you give
9:52
your child to what happens to your child when you're no longer there.
9:56
So even though my daughter lived 11 months, I had this 11 months of
10:00
learning this knowledge- Without, without ever even realizing I
10:05
would be working in this industry.
10:07
So we'll say I went from there at the age of 20, she died when I was 21,
10:12
so I kind of dived into training my racehorses, which is what I was brought
10:16
up in from my father and his family.
10:18
So, but years went on then and my life changed and things changed
10:21
around, and I ended up moving from Cork down to Limerick, where I
10:25
am, literally five minutes away from the Skinagh Equine Centre.
10:29
So all this is developing down through the years, and here
10:32
I am end, ending up here now.
10:33
So we'll say I went in there and everything slowed down then.
10:38
We'll say you're coming from this fast pace, and I was very interested
10:42
when I met you about the training of the horse for the Horse Boy method.
10:46
I was so interested in how to train a horse in a different way from winning
10:50
a race off the field to doing all this discipline, so that really caught my eye.
10:55
So when I was volunteering every Friday, that's when I met the families coming in.
11:00
That's where we'll say then I met David Doyle at the start, and so he would tell
11:04
me his vision for what was happening.
11:06
So I was delighted to learn as I was going all the way from the start and understand
11:11
the vision, what was the aim we were looking for So, and then when I started
11:16
working with the families and my first little boy, he's actually still there.
11:20
Dara is his name, from he was 14 when I started with him, and I've
11:23
worked with him all the way up through, and he's in his 20s now.
11:26
And it's just great to see how much he loves it, the passion for it.
11:31
He learned how to ride independently for a finish.
11:34
And, you know, the satisfaction you would get from working
11:38
with any child, it's, it's just there's no money can pay for this.
11:43
Like, it's just you have to have this passion inside of you to help
11:46
all these people and these families.
11:48
And I feel, you know, thank God I, I was given this and all
11:52
the staff that's over there.
11:53
It's just, it's, it's undescribable how good it makes you feel.
11:58
Like we say, we have three sections in Liskinnock.
12:01
We have the residential, the day services, and the equine center,
12:05
and they're all interlinked.
12:07
Then every Saturday, we've open family days.
12:09
Now, these are horrendously busy, but they are extremely rewarding.
12:13
I don't know
12:13
Rupert Isaacson: how you do those.
12:14
Can you-
12:15
Helen Picha: Yeah.
12:15
They are really-
12:15
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
12:15
Helen Picha: Let, de-
12:15
Rupert Isaacson: describe in detail how those work, because I think people will
12:18
have trouble believing that you guys- Yeah
12:20
can actually deliver a service like this.
12:22
Helen Picha: But they are f- they are very, you know, you would do up to
12:24
30,000 or 40,000 steps in the day.
12:26
We have no, we don't know how many's coming in because we
12:29
leave it open without a booking.
12:31
We've bookings Monday to Friday, but Saturdays it is a completely open day.
12:36
So if somebody sends me an email or a phone call, "How
12:38
do I get into Liskinnock?"
12:40
Your first entrance into Liskinnock with a, with a child is to come on a Saturday.
12:45
So we're open from half past 9:00 in the morning straight
12:47
through to half past 3:00.
12:49
No booking required, no fee attached.
12:52
You just come along in with your family.
12:54
If you're a new family on the day, we'll give you a consent form.
12:57
We'll meet you, greet you, show you around grounds, and not rushing the child.
13:01
Some child will fly down and they'll be mad to get on the horse.
13:04
Others are quite slower, and we say, "Take your time."
13:07
We'll show them around.
13:08
We've a beautiful playground.
13:09
We have a lovely sensory room.
13:11
We have a big indoor arena now that we have stage music on
13:16
that pictures on the walls.
13:18
I developed a beautiful movement to method room just off of that.
13:21
You go up the stairs, there's lovely low lighting.
13:24
We have the speaker Alexa on there.
13:26
So if no matter what song the child wants to put on, they'll
13:28
ask Alexa and she will put it on.
13:30
So that's there as well.
13:31
So they have lots to do before they even get out to ride a horse, or
13:35
they can, you know, go vice versa.
13:37
And when they get on the horse, then we take them off around our sensory trail.
13:40
They'll be on 30 to 35 minutes with a group of about 10 or 11 go out together.
13:45
But the siblings can also ride on a Saturday.
13:48
The parents can ride on a Saturday if they want.
13:50
So we can take them out as a group, as a family.
13:53
So it's something they can do together as a family, you know?
13:57
And it's a lot, for a lot of the families, it's the only thing they can do together.
14:03
So if
14:03
Rupert Isaacson: a, if a family comes out on this open day and- Yeah
14:06
â¦ you're, you're turning nobody away.
14:08
We turn nobody away.
14:08
Give us an idea of numbers.
14:09
How-
14:10
Helen Picha: I think I- How
14:10
Rupert Isaacson: many people are we talking?
14:11
Yeah.
14:11
Helen Picha: We're talking between 80 and 100 children- Wow
14:14
will ride on those days.
14:16
Rupert Isaacson: Incredible.
14:17
Helen Picha: Yeah, it's incredible.
14:18
But, you know, at least, like as I said, I was there from the start of it.
14:21
I remember the first Saturday we might've had 30 people, and then it just kept
14:25
growing and growing and growing now.
14:27
So at the same, we'll say last Christmas would've been the first
14:30
Christmas I did as a manager of it.
14:33
So this time we turned our indoor arena, which you know, into a
14:37
big, huge, magical wonderland.
14:39
All lighting, Christmas trees.
14:41
We have outside portable stables, so we turned two of them, one into Santa Claus's
14:46
little room and the other one into Mrs.
14:48
Claus' room.
14:49
But again, and I think this is very important for people to know when you are
14:53
doing big events like this for children with autism or intellectual disability,
14:57
again, we did no booking system.
14:59
Because before it was done with a booking system.
15:02
So if your child was booked in for 11:00 to see Santy and they had a meltdown
15:06
at 10, they're going to miss it.
15:07
Yeah.
15:07
So we said, "No booking system.
15:09
Keep it open."
15:10
300 children went horse riding and saw Santy at our last Christmas.
15:15
It was absolutely wonderful, and they c- they're looking forward
15:18
to th- this Christmas already, which is on the 12th of December.
15:21
And it was the best day ever, and they still all got their horse
15:24
ride, and we had the carriage going.
15:27
And a lot of these children, they can't go to Santy in the normal,
15:30
like in Doolin Shopping Center.
15:31
It has to be open.
15:33
There was loads of room for them to run around, go out and play in the
15:36
playground, whatever they want to do.
15:38
And not one child had a meltdown.
15:40
It was just a brilliant, brilliant day.
15:42
We had loads of stalls up along the side of local people around selling
15:45
their little bits and things, but it just put a lovely atmosphere in there,
15:48
all very casual, and went off great.
15:51
So I'm looking forward to this one again already.
15:52
But that's very important.
15:54
No booking system.
15:55
Don't put people down to a time.
15:58
You know- Keep it open as mu- as much as you can.
16:00
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things which always impresses me, I,
16:02
I've come out to Liskin, as you know, many times over the years.
16:04
Mm.
16:04
I'll be there again this coming September.
16:06
Helen Picha: Yeah.
16:07
Rupert Isaacson: Is the volume of kids-
16:09
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
16:09
Rupert Isaacson: and families that you guys serve, it's enormous.
16:13
Helen Picha: Yeah.
16:13
Rupert Isaacson: And not just on these d- open days, but sort of through the week.
16:16
I'm, I'm always astonished at the stamina- Yeah â¦ of the staff.
16:22
But the other thing that always strikes me is the enthusiasm of the horses.
16:30
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
16:31
Rupert Isaacson: The, the horses
16:35
never, are never sour.
16:37
They're always up for it.
16:40
Helen Picha: Yeah.
16:40
Rupert Isaacson: And I haven't, I mean, obviously we know people have their ups
16:44
and downs, but I've never seen the staff with anything other than- enthusiasm
16:51
and purpose and drive despite these very long hours, and often in, you know,
16:57
appalling- Yeah â¦ weather conditions.
16:59
Because-
16:59
Helen Picha: Your te- yeah
17:00
Rupert Isaacson: wh- wh- why, what's the secret there at Liskin?
17:02
It, why are the horses so happy?
17:04
Why are the people so
17:07
Helen Picha: Well, we say our, our environment is beautiful there.
17:10
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
17:10
Helen Picha: We've a lovely environment.
17:11
We've 23 horses there at the moment now.
17:14
Seven of those are racehorses.
17:16
Well, you know, it's very important that we rotate them around.
17:20
You can't just use the same ones for the whole long day every day.
17:23
So we, you know, we have a program where we're rotating our horses.
17:26
That's very important.
17:27
They're also you know, they do their, they're in hand and they're, we have all
17:31
their backs built up and they're strong.
17:33
They're looked after, they're fed properly.
17:35
They're out in their own little herds, we'll say.
17:38
The racehorses have their own paddock, so they're out together.
17:40
You know, they're, they're out with their friends.
17:43
We have background music on all the time.
17:45
I think it's very important for animals as well.
17:47
Mm-hmm.
17:47
They have to have a nice background.
17:49
And they're just happy horses because we look after them well.
17:52
Yeah, you- That's very important.
17:53
The staff, it's the same with the staff.
17:55
I had to build up a new team of staff two years ago, and I'm
17:59
delighted to say I, I have the best staff in Ireland, I would imagine.
18:03
Mm-hmm.
18:03
I have a mixture of men and women.
18:04
They are s- when I was interviewing them, I felt it very important that
18:08
I felt a passion off of them as well.
18:11
You know, you have to have passionate people working with children with
18:14
disability, and they have not, you know, you can't be afraid of work.
18:17
Yeah.
18:17
This is hard work.
18:18
You know, it's mentally and physically hard taking out children on a horse
18:22
because you're watching both the horse and the child, and you have
18:25
to have people that love their job.
18:27
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
18:28
Helen Picha: You know- You know, it's
18:30
Rupert Isaacson: very important.
18:30
I, I think there's a couple of real key things there.
18:32
You talk about the beauty of the environment and- Yes â¦ so I'm just
18:35
gonna paint a picture for people who are, are listening and watching.
18:39
So when the, Helen was talking about a, a covered arena, but guess what?
18:44
They don't ride in it.
18:45
In fact, that whole arena was turned over a few years ago- Yeah, mm-hmm â¦ into a
18:49
huge open play space and concert space.
18:52
Mm-hmm.
18:52
Because guess what?
18:53
They, David found, and I think you found too, that the kids wanted to be outside.
18:57
Helen Picha: Yeah, they were bored inside there.
18:59
There w- It was boring to ride a horse in there, yeah.
19:01
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
19:02
So there is this long track that I would say is what?
19:06
Two, possibly three kilometers.
19:08
Helen Picha: Yeah, two kilometers, yeah.
19:10
Rupert Isaacson: And as you say, some of it is a sensory trail, some of it
19:12
is just beautifully landscaped, some of it is through, is open fields.
19:15
Yeah.
19:16
Some of it is, you know, goes uphill and over banks.
19:18
Helen Picha: Yep,
19:19
Rupert Isaacson: You know, there's- That's it â¦ all sorts of mixed terrain.
19:22
And you're doing a lot of this work in long reins.
19:25
Yeah.
19:25
So horses are getting their backs built up- Mm-hmm â¦ as you're working, which
19:29
is- Yeah â¦ or you're working at the shoulder, Yeah â¦ you know, s- in
19:32
hand as the horses are going forward.
19:33
So again, their backs are being built up.
19:35
So horses are not being broken down, they're being built up, and they're
19:38
going out with their friends into this really beautiful environment.
19:41
And then of course over the road you've got this mountain.
19:45
Helen Picha: Yep.
19:45
Rupert Isaacson: And-
19:46
Helen Picha: A key change of scenery when you go there, don't you?
19:48
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
19:48
And that's wild and forested, and then you get up- Yeah
19:50
on top of that mountain and you see, you know, two-
19:54
Helen Picha: Yeah, everything.
19:54
Yeah
19:54
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: Killarney on one, so Kerry on one side, and then, you
19:57
know- Yeah â¦ across to the north and the east on another side, and
19:59
it, Ireland's laid out before you.
20:01
And I do know that obviously not everyone can work in an environment that
20:08
is that beautiful or that inspiring.
20:11
But it does really seem to
20:16
prove that nature is always what's going to do- Yeah â¦ 60% of the work for you-
20:23
It is, yeah â¦ sort of t- t- type thing.
20:25
Helen Picha: Yeah.
20:25
You're, yeah.
20:26
Rupert Isaacson: When you're when you're going out with the kids on, up
20:30
on that mountain, it's quite a wild environment, and it's, you know, a lot
20:35
of people would look at it and go, "Oh my gosh, it's really uncontrolled."
20:38
You've A, first you cross this road to get there, and then B, you go up
20:41
through these tracks and through these gates, and you know, what happens if
20:43
someone, something happens up there?
20:46
It's so, so much of the way therapeutic riding is often taught to people, it's
20:53
all about control, control, control.
20:55
And-
20:57
I always feel that the best safety is in good preparation, good
21:01
preparation of your horse, good preparation of your staff, good
21:04
preparation of your trails, et cetera.
21:06
But talk us through, when you go up on that mountain, how do you choreograph
21:12
that experience so that it feels wild and wonderful to the people going up,
21:19
but you, in fact, can keep that safe and on point for also the therapeutic
21:26
aspects you, you need to deliver?
21:29
Helen Picha: Like as you said, you have to be prepared before you go up there.
21:32
So all of our horses, as they're introduced in and they're trained,
21:35
it could take six months, that's even part of their training, us riding
21:39
them up there or taking them up there.
21:40
So they're very familiar with the environment up on the
21:43
hills before we ever go there.
21:45
Mm-hmm.
21:45
They go up there a couple of times a week we're up there with them in
21:49
groups of horses or with po- children that we're ponying, and it's just
21:53
so relaxing from the minute we go across the road and open the first
21:57
gate and go up along into the trees.
22:00
The horses relax, the children then, they're just loving it.
22:04
You're climbing constantly on the way up most of the way, and you go up then
22:07
and we give the child, "We go left.
22:08
We go right."
22:09
So we're on a pathway the whole way, but you're just completely
22:13
covered by trees and nature, and the birds are singing up there.
22:17
It's, you can relax and we can s- there's stopping points we have then
22:20
along the way then where you could stop and you just look down over the valley.
22:25
And even the children, they just stop and take a deep breath and they look.
22:28
Like, it's, it's just, it's ov- you know, for just a place that we call
22:32
the hill across the way, it does wonders for the children up there.
22:37
I used to actually even ride up there in the winter at the nighttime
22:40
and I'd go off to the right before with a group of children.
22:42
I think you actually came with me a few years ago.
22:44
I had seven or eight children, and we used to go off to the right-hand side then in
22:48
the dark even when it was early winters.
22:50
And that way we could see, I think it was Newcastle West, and you
22:54
could, all you could see was about a, a million lights from the town.
22:57
And the children were just trying to count the lights, the amount of lights they saw.
23:01
It was, they were just, it was, it was fantastic.
23:03
I can still visualize it now, even today, and the little children's faces, and
23:07
they're all trying to count how many lights could they see and where was that.
23:10
It was like another world, what they could see.
23:12
And, you know, to us, this is just the next door, the town next door,
23:16
but it was beautiful to watch, and it was so, it's the relaxation up there.
23:20
But that's because we're inside of thousands of trees
23:23
and birds and everything.
23:25
It's just, it's just pure natural nature
23:28
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think, too, that the, those views, that, that they're
23:31
extraordinary, the views from up there?
23:32
Helen Picha: Yeah, they're fabulous.
23:33
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that those are helping with brain development in
23:37
terms of perspective, in terms of giving that bird's-eye view, in terms of going
23:43
from a, a world that has, you know, become quite small- Yeah â¦ often, you know?
23:48
To then really suddenly massively expand it and possibility and freedom.
23:53
Helen Picha: Yeah, but you can see the child just taking just, you
23:55
can even see them taking the deep breaths up there and relaxing.
23:58
Plus they have, you know, you've been working the horse the whole way
24:01
up, so the child is, you know, their oxytocin is, everything is working
24:04
before you get up to the very top.
24:06
Mm-hmm.
24:06
So the brain is open for development.
24:08
So by the time they get up there, plus if you're going up even with a
24:11
group of four or five, you get the conversation going with the children.
24:14
They start talking amongst one another.
24:16
So, you know, everything is working how it should be when you're going up in
24:20
these hills like this and out into nature.
24:22
And, and then you just have the beauty when you get there then.
24:25
And it's, it's just a relaxed atmosphere up there.
24:28
It's very calming.
24:29
There has never been an incident that you've had to take a
24:31
child off of a horse up there.
24:33
Rupert Isaacson: No i- it's amazing.
24:34
Your safety record's extraordinary.
24:35
Yeah.
24:35
And I remember w- in the early days this ex- having this extraordinary
24:39
experience I remember go- riding up there with David, and I think ma- you
24:43
might have been leading this ride.
24:44
You said, "Ru, I just want to show you something."
24:46
So he, you know, we always know with David, okay, there's
24:48
gonna be an agenda, right?
24:49
Fine, right.
24:49
So w- we ride up, and he says, "Oh, we just wait here now.
24:53
We just wait here now."
24:53
And okay, and we're looking out over the view.
24:56
And as you said, it was a late evening.
24:57
The dark, I think, was coming on.
24:59
Mm-hmm.
24:59
And then pretty soon we heard, "Tukta tukta tukta tukta tukta."
25:02
And it's like hoof beats galloping.
25:04
I'm like, "Okay, something'sâ¦"
25:05
And David's like, "Just, just, just wait, Rupert.
25:07
Just wait."
25:08
And, "Tukta tukta tukta tukta tukta," louder.
25:11
And then suddenly eight little cobs come flying past me-
25:16
with eight boys on them.
25:18
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
25:19
Rupert Isaacson: All of whom have autism.
25:21
Helen Picha: Yeah.
25:21
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm not just talking, you know, mild Asperger's,
25:25
but some of them not f- not verbal.
25:28
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
25:28
Rupert Isaacson: All riding independently.
25:29
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
25:30
Rupert Isaacson: All at the canter.
25:31
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
25:33
And taking instruction, even.
25:34
I remember telling them, "Single file now, boys.
25:37
One behind another," and, you know, they listened and understood
25:40
and do, they understood.
25:41
"Single file now."
25:42
Yeah, brilliant.
25:44
Rupert Isaacson: So what I noticed was, you know, I, I, I sort of
25:47
said to David, you went, you know, you flew by with the, the lads.
25:51
And I said to David, and I was like, "H- David, how'd you do that?
25:55
You know, how'd you do that?"
25:57
And you know David, he was, "Oh, he's-" And yeah, just so, so, and
26:02
but what I realized is, oh, I see.
26:03
You guys have a sort of a, an access to the supernatural, the morphic
26:10
field, or the divine, or, or there's- â¦ something going on here which is
26:14
beyond simple protocols and training.
26:17
When you led that ride or you lead rides like that-
26:20
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
26:21
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: it's obviously not just about the kids.
26:23
The horses, those ponies themselves-
26:26
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
26:26
Rupert Isaacson: um, need to, you know, it, it, it could go,
26:31
it could go otherwise, let's say.
26:33
Helen Picha: It could go really wrong.
26:34
But, like, I would have never went up- So- You know, you, I would go
26:37
up with one child at a time first.
26:38
Mm-hmm.
26:39
You know, as you're, as you're introducing them and you're, you're
26:41
giving them confidence and you go from ponying to individual riding.
26:45
Like, each one of those children would have more than likely been up
26:48
there on their own with me or another staff or maybe, and then we go two.
26:52
So we build it in that we have a group going, which is very important for the
26:56
children, especially that are milder.
26:58
You know, it gives them more confidence.
26:59
It, you know, they could, a lot of them children could have been
27:01
very shy and weren't interacting.
27:03
Yeah.
27:04
But the best way I think to get them to interact is when their horse,
27:07
when they're on the horse together.
27:09
Yeah.
27:09
And you know, this was a great achievement for them.
27:11
I remember when they got up the first time up to the top, and we got up cantering.
27:15
But again, like, I would may have been in front, but I would've had
27:18
another trained rider at the back.
27:20
Mm-hmm.
27:20
Which is even more important because they're watching everyone, like.
27:23
But sometimes, you know, even though I would come across, I was confident, like,
27:27
I would be still, you know, until I get at the top and everyone is safe, you know.
27:30
Mm.
27:31
You're still worrying and your heart is in your mouth, even
27:33
though I would've been very careful matching horse to rider, you know.
27:37
Mm-hmm.
27:37
And that is very important that you don't give a child a horse that they can't ride.
27:41
You know, you must make sure they're suited to one another.
27:44
That's very, very important as well.
27:46
Rupert Isaacson: One of the things I s- I noticed when I, when that, that cavalcade
27:50
went past me was I saw- Mm-hmm â¦ a couple of the boys who were wobblier
27:56
I saw the horses actively underneath them rebalancing their rider Mm-hmm,
28:00
Helen Picha: mm-hmm, yeah
28:00
Rupert Isaacson: And y- anyone who is, you know this you know, any- anyone who's a
28:04
horseman knows that when a horse is at its most generous, that is what they will do
28:09
Yeah And when they know that they have a vulnerable person up there and they decide
28:13
that they want to look after that person-
28:15
Helen Picha: Yeah
28:16
Rupert Isaacson: they will do that.
28:17
But of course, not every horse will do this, and not every horse in a
28:20
therapeutic environment will do this.
28:22
Why would you say that your horses there in Liskinagh will take that uncle, aunt
28:27
sort of role even in those types of situations where they could have a bit
28:31
of, you know, fun at the rider's expense?
28:33
I s-
28:33
Helen Picha: you know, I suppose, David and I have been very you know,
28:37
with every horse we've got, we just don't say, "This horse is gonna work."
28:41
They won't all work, you know?
28:42
And some horses are, are faster than the other, but we put them through
28:45
a quite rigorous training before any service user will ride them.
28:49
And we do a lot of work with them, and we ride them up to
28:51
hill, and we do different things.
28:53
And David has his bags under the legs and we do a lot of
28:56
disciplining riding in the arena.
28:58
So I think the temperament of the horse is the first thing
29:02
we look at when we get them in.
29:04
They have to have a really nice temperament.
29:06
It's like a human.
29:07
You know, we're no m- we're not very much different, horse and human, really.
29:11
Mm.
29:11
I think we're very familiar, similar to one another, like.
29:14
So we have to connect with the horse first, like, and I just
29:18
think that's the main thing.
29:19
Their temperament has to be, is very important, and you just
29:22
work with the horse from there.
29:24
You know, you work.
29:25
Okay.
29:25
And even when we're on them, like, we're, you know, we get to know them first
29:29
and we're doing the, the flat work and the different work and up the hill, and
29:32
then we start as if we are a service user and we get upset on the horse and
29:36
everything, and you're watching for that reaction of the horse straight away.
29:39
Mm.
29:39
But I even sees even some of the mornings when we'd ride out the thoroughbreds,
29:42
especially now in the mornings, and a lot of the school children are on the
29:45
thoroughbreds because, as you know, they wouldn't be very weight-bearing horses,
29:49
you know, they're for the smaller ones.
29:51
And we can see them if we're riding them out and if they're feeling well of a
29:55
morning, but it doesn't matter, no matter which child gets on these race horses,
29:59
or any horse we've in the yard, it, they just completely, they go down and relax.
30:04
They've had been, they've been hit, slapped and everything.
30:06
They d- are, they are not reacting.
30:08
They're just, they're so intelligent animals, and it's like as if they know
30:12
when a child is going up that has the intellectual disability or autism,
30:16
they're actually looking after the child.
30:18
Mm.
30:18
It's, it's fabulous to see it, and it's great then, you know, say, "Okay, we got
30:21
this horse to here," but the horse is taking it from there then, like, you know?
30:25
Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more.
30:25
And, and you were talking about race horses, so one of the- Yeah â¦ things
30:28
which it's good for listeners to understand is so Liskinagh
30:32
is partly the, you know, is, is actually very much supported by a
30:36
family called the McManus family-
30:38
Helen Picha: Yes
30:39
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: who are big into racing.
30:41
Yeah.
30:41
And many of the retired horses end up with a second career at, Yes
30:46
at Liskinagh.
30:47
Mm-hmm.
30:47
And it's always interesting to me in the therapeutic environment when
30:51
there's a, there's a, there's a lot of people who feel that thoroughbreds,
30:54
you know, they're not safe.
30:55
You can't use them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
30:57
Now, of course, any of us that grew up around thoroughbreds know
31:00
that that's actually not true.
31:01
Yeah.
31:02
And we've also got Square Peg Foundation over in California, that horse
31:06
boy place which almost exclusively uses h- race horses off the track.
31:10
Mm.
31:10
But it's still, I think, for a lot of people, a bit of a mind
31:13
blower, and when they come out to Liskinagh, yeah, they're going to
31:16
see racehorses, many of which have actually been quite successful and won.
31:22
Helen Picha: Mm.
31:22
Rupert Isaacson: They're not just reject horses.
31:24
Helen Picha: No,
31:24
Rupert Isaacson: no â¦ taking out children out into the open-
31:28
Mm-hmm â¦ who are going to throw all kinds of things at them.
31:32
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
31:32
Rupert Isaacson: And doing this exemplary job, what is the special thing about
31:36
Thoroughbreds, and also what's your, what's the, the way in which you bring
31:42
the Thoroughbreds into the program?
31:43
Because I know you have a sort of several step process for this.
31:46
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
31:47
Well, they're very intelligent the Thoroughbreds are.
31:50
We'll say when they come into us, they're just retired from racing So they're
31:55
coming into us still with a racing brain.
31:58
So we let them off into the fields for a couple of weeks, watch them to
32:01
see how they react, and then we say, "Okay, let's bring them in one by one."
32:04
So the first thing we have to do is get the racing brain out of their
32:07
head, let them understand, okay, we're not gonna gallop you anymore.
32:10
There's no more racing, there's no more whips.
32:13
It's, you know, you're coming into, we're gonna bring you back
32:15
down i- into, like, I had to come back down from the racing circuit.
32:18
So you're bringing your horse right back down into the basics, relaxation.
32:23
They're not getting the high volume of of feed that they would get
32:27
when they're racing and the multi.
32:28
Yes, they're still fed and looked after and everything is that way,
32:32
but you're bringing their brain away from the racing circuit.
32:35
You're not getting up on them every morning and gallop, and we're gonna
32:38
gallop, and schooling them over fences.
32:40
You're bringing them back.
32:41
You're into your sand arena.
32:43
You're doing, you're doing your walk, your seated trot.
32:46
You're getting them to work from behind, building up the top line and just, it's
32:50
getting the gallop out of the brain.
32:52
We haven't galloped any of those racehorses.
32:54
Yes, we'd give them some fun days up across the hill if we had
32:57
to show up, but it's still not, yeah, yeah, fly mat to the mat.
33:00
It's nice, sit down, relax.
33:01
We are u- using a long stirrup now because we use a western
33:04
saddle all the time in Liskinagh.
33:06
So it's just getting them to relax and stop chewing the bit and realize
33:11
this is a relaxed environment.
33:13
You've gone into a different completely world of what you were
33:15
in, and they seem to understand that.
33:18
And once they're suitable, they're, they're br- they're brilliant.
33:21
You know, I think that- And they walk on, they walk on very well
33:23
as well, which is very important.
33:25
They're good walkers.
33:26
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
33:26
Helen Picha: So they'll walk on and so the child is ha- you know,
33:29
they're getting their oxytocin because they're really walking good rhythm.
33:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
33:33
Rocking the child's hips, absolutely.
33:34
Yeah,
33:34
Helen Picha: really good.
33:35
Yeah.
33:36
Rupert Isaacson: Y- when I, I know too you've got a sort of process
33:39
before they even come to the farm, which is at, at David at his house
33:43
and he- Yeah â¦ he takes them.
33:44
Can you just d- d- describe what ha- happens there so that they start up
33:47
there in Charleville at David's, and then before they come to you even.
33:51
Yeah.
33:51
So, so just, just walk us through this.
33:53
I think this is interesting for people to, to know.
33:55
Helen Picha: So he, he'll keep them up there for a week or 10 days and
33:58
David does, well, what he does, well, he's a little sand arena and you know,
34:03
he put, he has these bags he puts through their legs and all different
34:07
signs and diff- it's completely different to what they're used to.
34:11
And he says, "Yeah, Helen, I think this horse will make it with us."
34:15
So he'll come on then down after and we'd start riding them out together.
34:19
Anyone that has ridden thoroughbreds will go on them first.
34:21
We just won't even, we, you know, you have to be used to riding
34:24
racehorses at some degree of level to work with them from the start.
34:28
And we just go out through our process with them all the time and
34:30
bring them down, down, down and relax them, and they could take six
34:33
months, they could take 12 months.
34:35
Yeah.
34:35
But no child will go on top of them until we're satisfied they are ready.
34:39
But you would be fairly, you would know earlier on by the horse's temperament, you
34:44
know, that's, that's your first indicator.
34:46
You're looking at the temperament of the horse.
34:48
Rupert Isaacson: I, I think that that
34:54
two-stage process where David takes them at his- Yeah â¦ and sort of
34:55
auditions them, if you like, over there-
34:56
Helen Picha: Yeah, it's, yeah, it's like an
34:57
Rupert Isaacson: audition
34:57
Helen Picha: there â¦ lunging period And what do you think, and do you
34:59
think we'll, that they'll make it?
35:01
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
35:03
considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
35:08
taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
35:12
Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
35:18
Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
35:25
developed in conjunction with Dr.
35:27
Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
35:31
We work in the saddle with younger children.
35:34
Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
35:40
It works incredibly well.
35:41
It's now in about 40 countries.
35:44
Check it out.
35:45
If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
35:49
method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
35:53
applied in schools, in homes.
35:55
If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
36:00
at home that will create neuroplasticity.
36:03
when they're not with you.
36:04
Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
36:08
If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
36:11
really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
36:15
in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
36:20
So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
36:23
also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
36:27
And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
36:32
am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
36:35
need, as well as Serving my clients.
36:38
Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
36:43
absolutely gives you this.
36:45
It's, it's a very wise way to go.
36:47
And it's a kind of a horseman's decision, which it's, it's the type of horsemanship
36:52
which I think is often missing, Yeah
36:54
in ther- the therapeutic environment.
36:56
You know, normally it would be like there's a stable, a donation
36:59
horse shows up at the stable, okay, there's a probation period.
37:02
That's
37:02
Helen Picha: it.
37:02
Rupert Isaacson: You know, but this thing of, of saying, "No, no, I
37:06
will take the horse at home first.
37:07
I will take the risk of being the one that works with it, rides it, gets
37:12
up on it, gets to know even if this horse is a contender," before- Yeah
37:18
saying to the staff down at Liskinard, "Okay, now let's turn him out with
37:22
the herd down there, and now let's see if we're right about this horse."
37:26
Yeah.
37:26
And then, as you say, over the course of a year-
37:28
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
37:28
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: bringing that horse into the work.
37:30
You know, it's not a typeâ¦
37:33
you know, when, when you say it like that, it, it, it makes perfect sense.
37:36
One thinks, "Oh, that's common sense."
37:37
Yeah.
37:37
But we, you and I both know that it's not often done that way.
37:40
Helen Picha: Yeah.
37:41
Rupert Isaacson: Given that you are massively overworked, you have this large
37:46
volume of, of clients coming through- Yeah â¦ how do you m- make the time to do the
37:53
training and preparation of the horses?
37:55
'Cause this is always difficult for people.
37:56
Helen Picha: Yeah, so, you know, our first clients aren't in until 10:00, but I'm at
38:00
work at quarter past 7:00 every morning.
38:02
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
38:03
Helen Picha: And all horses are brought in.
38:05
So we'd always have two or three new horses that are coming forward
38:09
that we have to specifically work on in the mornings.
38:12
You know, all horses are brought in, all horses are fed we
38:15
have a horse walker as well.
38:17
But the, the newest ones, or it's the newest client that's
38:20
in, we work on them all the time.
38:22
And then we obviously have staff that are trained up in the Horse Boy Method,
38:26
so the ones that are continuing on, I could send that two out to the arena
38:30
for lunging and do that work with them.
38:32
I could pick another rider and say, "Okay, we're going out on
38:34
these race horses this morning."
38:36
Myself and David always ride the race horses.
38:38
I have another new supervisor, Padraig is his name ex-amateur from
38:42
England, so he's very qualified with the race horses as well.
38:45
So we work on the riding of the race horses, the new ones coming in, and
38:50
but you have, when you start with them, you can't just do it one day a
38:53
week, is, you have to be consistent.
38:55
Mm.
38:55
And, and it doesn't matter if it's a, a Thoroughbred or a half-bred or
38:58
what it is, you must be consistent when you bring them in and say, "Okay,
39:01
we're three-quarters way here with this fella now, we must continue
39:04
and get this fella over the line."
39:06
But you must continue, you can't just do it one or two days a week.
39:09
This is work, and you, you keep going until you get to
39:12
the end goal and he's ready.
39:14
So that, and especially with the Thoroughbred, you must keep working
39:17
on them, and a- again, not one day a week, you're wasting your time.
39:20
You, it's like anything, you keep going until you ha- you get to the end result.
39:25
Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned lunging there, and I know that you're doing a
39:28
lot of other work on the ground, too.
39:29
It's not just riding.
39:30
Can you, can you walk us through a little bit what the ground
39:34
training is with your horses there?
39:36
Helen Picha: So we say to build up the back line and all that, and
39:39
build up the strong back and make the horse work from behind, it's either
39:43
we're long lining, we're lunging.
39:45
So that's on the ground doing the in-hand work, and, or we do it on the
39:48
riding as you taught us, the countdowns.
39:51
I mean, they're brilliant for the horses.
39:53
Thoroughbreds at the start now found them a little bit confusing.
39:55
Yeah.
39:56
So you know, we just do, we'll just do the walk today, lads, we're saying,
39:59
or we'll do a little flat work.
40:01
We'd have our eight poles in the middle of the sand arena, and we're
40:04
on our seat of trot in and out through them, and then we'll say, "Okay,
40:07
lads, we're on the countdowns."
40:08
So we'll start them always on the walk.
40:10
So we'll teach them our one to 10s backwards on the walk first.
40:14
And some of them are fine by it, but some of the Thoroughbreds then could
40:17
get a little bit, you'd see them chewing the bit, and you're just rubbing them,
40:20
and you're, you're reassuring them.
40:22
So you're teaching these racehorses a new skill as well.
40:25
Yeah.
40:26
That it's okay for you to walk 10 steps and stop for two steps and back
40:29
to eight, and then when they're happy with that, we'll do to the trot.
40:32
But sure, we could be in the trot for another two months, especially
40:35
with the racehorse, before we'll even get to the canter.
40:38
Yes.
40:38
You know?
40:38
So there, there can be, there has to be no rush with the training of them, of
40:42
the racehorses especially, but any of them, they've all different temperaments.
40:46
And like my, I may say, we have racehorses that were second in Cheltenham and
40:50
everything, but the cob mare like Lady, she's as valuable to us as the
40:54
horse that was second in Cheltenham.
40:55
Absolutely.
40:56
You know, when they come in like that, what they'd done before, it
40:58
is really re- is irrele- irrelevant.
41:00
The children love to know it.
41:01
Oh, this fella won five races, and, and they love the story of the horse.
41:05
But to us as an equine therapy yard, the value of the horse
41:09
is how valuable he is to us- Mm-hmm â¦ and working with the child.
41:12
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
41:12
Helen Picha: You know?
41:14
Rupert Isaacson: You also do some driving.
41:15
You mentioned the carriage earlier.
41:17
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
41:17
Rupert Isaacson: I'm a great believer in bringing driving into therapeutic
41:21
environments for a bunch of reasons.
41:22
You know, there are some kids, you just cannot put them on a horse for-
41:26
Helen Picha: Yeah â¦ a
41:26
Rupert Isaacson: multitude of reasons.
41:27
Mm-hmm.
41:28
But one of the other things I love is that similar to when you are back riding,
41:32
when you have a child in front of you in the saddle- Mm-hmm â¦ when a child is
41:35
in a carriage, they're looking forward-
41:37
Helen Picha: Yeah
41:38
Rupert Isaacson: and there's a sense of agency, particularly if they're sitting
41:41
next to the person doing the driving- Mm-hmm â¦ particularly if they can
41:44
even take the reins to some degree.
41:46
Yeah.
41:46
There is an oxytocin effect.
41:48
It's not as strong as on the horse.
41:50
On the
41:50
Helen Picha: horse, yeah.
41:50
Rupert Isaacson: But it's still there.
41:52
There is still some rocking of hips.
41:53
But one of the things I really love about it is that you can put groups of
41:55
people, social groups- Yeah â¦ there.
41:57
So many- Or
41:57
Helen Picha: families, yeah.
41:58
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
41:59
So can you, c- talk us through how you use the, the driving, and
42:03
how that came into the program, 'cause that wasn't your background.
42:06
Helen Picha: No.
42:07
Well, we have one particular mare, Flash, she's the one that
42:09
does all the carriage drives.
42:11
Mm-hmm.
42:12
And we try to have her out at, you know, she'll be there for the Christmas or the
42:16
Halloween event, Saturdays if we can.
42:18
Mainly it's for families to go out together.
42:21
Mm.
42:21
We find that especially if a child won't go up on the horse and we say, "You know,
42:25
the carriage is out there," and the, the mum, the dad, and the siblings, they-
42:29
it's like they go for a family little run around the whole of the sensory trail.
42:33
Yeah.
42:33
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
42:34
Yeah.
42:34
Helen Picha: They, they, they would beâ¦
42:36
They love it, yeah.
42:37
Rupert Isaacson: It's I think it's
42:38
Helen Picha: specifically- Very, very relaxing for them as well,
42:40
like, but yeah, just the fact that they go together is lovely.
42:44
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
42:44
It, it, it sort of allows the family to participate-
42:47
Helen Picha: Yeah
42:47
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: all together.
42:48
I think this is something that's often a little bit overlooked.
42:50
Helen Picha: Mm.
42:51
Because not always, the mum and dad won't always get up- Yeah â¦ on
42:54
the, on the Saturday ride either.
42:55
Or one or the other might or they might not.
42:57
Sometimes they just like to go into our kitchen and have a cup of tea, and leave
43:01
us off with the children, and they get that half an hour just for themselves,
43:05
and they'll meet other families.
43:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
43:07
Helen Picha: Which is hugely important, so yeah.
43:09
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
43:10
I, I know that as an autism parent myself you always get your best
43:13
information from other parents, right?
43:15
Yeah.
43:15
Helen Picha: Yeah.
43:15
Rupert Isaacson: But you often don't get a chance to meet them- Yeah
43:17
â¦ because you're isolated and so busy.
43:19
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
43:22
But then you are- And we, and we notice then they'd arrange with
43:22
one another for the next Saturday that they come at the same time.
43:26
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
43:26
Helen Picha: So, you know, they're, it's like a meeting point for them then,
43:28
and the children can play around, and they come back from their ride on the
43:32
horse and they're, you know, they're in great form, and they're feeling
43:34
great, and they go out then and play on the trampoline and everything.
43:37
So they could stay there for hours, the families, on a Saturday.
43:40
There's no time limit or anything.
43:41
You can stay all day if you want.
43:43
Bring a picnic and everything, you know, 'cause we have the indoor arena,
43:46
so it doesn't matter if it's raining.
43:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
43:48
Helen Picha: You know?
43:48
So there's no rush away, and it's very important that they know that.
43:51
It's
43:51
Rupert Isaacson: such, it's such a great model.
43:52
A, a lot of people will be thinking how many staff have you got to, to-
43:56
Helen Picha: Yes
43:56
Rupert Isaacson: maintain
43:57
Helen Picha: something like this?
43:57
So we have one, two, three.
43:59
I have three supervisors underneath me, and we have another six or
44:02
seven relief staff, but we also have fantastic volunteers that we could
44:06
not do the Saturdays without them.
44:08
We could have a line of 12 or 13 horses going out on a Saturday
44:13
every day, every half an hour, whatever, and I'd have six staff in.
44:17
So six working staff, like, with six volunteers as well.
44:20
Mm.
44:20
And you would need 12 going out to keep it flowing so there's no
44:23
build-up, you know, a backlog of, you know, 'cause children don't like to
44:26
wait too long for their horse ride.
44:28
So we would have at least six volunteers in on the Saturdays as
44:31
well that give up their time most Saturdays the whole year round.
44:34
We couldn't do it without them.
44:35
They're brilliant people.
44:37
Yeah.
44:38
So very important you, you, you advertise for your volunteers, and
44:41
you look after them when you get them.
44:43
Rupert Isaacson: Is it difficult to find the volunteers there?
44:45
Helen Picha: Well, we're advertised for it always, and you know, they come in.
44:48
But yeah, no, who come in, they're very good, like, yeah.
44:52
Rupert Isaacson: I, well, I, I get such
44:54
Helen Picha: a lot of d- The process is all right.
44:55
There's a bit of process in it, you know.
44:57
Yeah.
44:57
'Cause they have to be Garda vetted and they have to have
44:59
the Children's First Aid course.
45:00
You know, there's things to do.
45:02
But we always have somebody- Garda vetted means police background check, right?
45:04
Yeah.
45:04
Yeah, police, yeah, background check, which you have to have working
45:06
with children with disability.
45:07
Mm-hmm.
45:07
So the process could take six or eight weeks for somebody that wants
45:11
to volunteer to come in with us.
45:12
Mm-hmm.
45:13
But anyone that does volunteer, like, they're, they're very committed
45:16
and, you know, they come up and whenever they say they're coming,
45:19
they'll turn up, and they're there for a good few years, all of them.
45:22
You know, they're great.
45:23
Rupert Isaacson: Do some of them do it because they want to actually enter the
45:26
equine-assisted industry and work in that?
45:29
Or is it mostly older people where you, you get-
45:31
Helen Picha: mostly people that are kind of retired or semi-retired
45:35
or- Mm-hmm â¦ yeah, that's who, who do it really, like, yeah.
45:38
Rupert Isaacson: And they'd need a fair amount of physical fitness for this.
45:41
Helen Picha: Yeah, they would, but they don't all have to walk.
45:43
You know, it's lovely to have somebody meeting the families coming in as well.
45:46
Mm-hmm.
45:46
So you know, if we take, if somebody doesn't want to do the walking, now
45:50
we're very lucky what we ha- the lads we have in and the ladies, they are very
45:53
fit, and they would stay most of the day on the Saturday or a half day anyway.
45:58
But they're great once they get to know the people.
46:00
Do you know when they're coming every Saturday and
46:02
they get to know the families.
46:03
But it's great to have somebody back to meet a new family that's coming in because
46:07
as you know yourself, when you're coming into Liskin, it is huge and there's,
46:10
there's so much to see, and you'd always notice the family coming in that's new.
46:14
They're very overwhelmed, and they, they don't know what to do, and the children
46:18
are running around and everything.
46:19
So it's lovely to have somebody meeting them when they come in and greeting
46:23
them 'cause if we're out with 12 horses and there's no one there, there's
46:26
always have somebody back to meet them and, you know, show them around and
46:29
tell them, "Relax," or, "There'll be a supervisor back in a minute now, and
46:32
they'll take you through everything."
46:33
And so there's a place for everybody as a volunteer, or if they, you know,
46:37
you wanna stay in the kitchen and there's, there's a place for everyone.
46:40
You don't have to walk every 30,000 steps if you don't want to.
46:48
Rupert Isaacson: Th- these roles and these activities that are not
46:49
horse-based, you and I both know they're as important as- Yeah,
46:52
Helen Picha: they're very important.
46:53
Yeah
46:55
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: You've got on the side of that, what used to be the
46:57
arena and what is now of course this massive indoor play space.
47:00
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
47:00
Rupert Isaacson: You've got this, as you, you referred to it earlier, this sort
47:03
of little slip room up, up a stairway-
47:05
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
47:05
Rupert Isaacson: with a mirrored wall and music.
47:08
Helen Picha: Yeah.
47:09
Rupert Isaacson: And it's really a dance studio.
47:11
Helen Picha: Yeah.
47:11
Rupert Isaacson: Why did you put that in, and what, what are the benefits you see?
47:16
Helen Picha: Well, I put â¦ I remember I was going on holidays a
47:19
couple of years ago when my son was dancing in a world championship in
47:23
Canada or somewhere, and I was going
47:24
Rupert Isaacson: on holidays- Your, your son's an Irish dancer, right?
47:25
He's, he's a champion Irish dancer.
47:27
Helen Picha: Yes, Rudy.
47:28
Yeah, yeah.
47:28
And so I was going on my holidays, and there was this little, that
47:31
little room was always up there but there was nothing in it.
47:33
There was a piece of sand, but we did nothing with it.
47:36
And David anyway, instead of saying, "Helen, have the great holiday," and
47:39
switch off, he said to me, "While you're on holidays now, Helen,
47:42
would you ever think of something that we could do to that room?"
47:44
He said when, "And think of it while you're away, you know?"
47:46
I said, "Okay, I will so, David.
47:48
I'll think of it while I'm on holidays."
47:49
So while I was on holidays, I, I did think about it because the year or two
47:54
years prior to that I broke my ankle off of a horse while I was working on him.
47:59
And David, he was called to my house with Caroline every couple
48:02
of weeks to see how I was.
48:04
And one of the days they called, my son Rudy was down in his training
48:08
room training in front of, for his competition, and Caroline came
48:11
down and I said, "Come on down."
48:12
I said, "Rudy's training below in the shed.
48:14
Have a look."
48:15
So Caroline had no interest in Rudy training.
48:17
All she saw was the big mirror, the speaker system- Caroline being
48:20
Rupert Isaacson: David's autistic daughter, right?
48:22
Helen Picha: Adult daughter.
48:22
The daughter, yeah.
48:23
Dave, Caroline Doyle.
48:24
All she saw was the big mirrors, the music system, and the music bopping.
48:29
So all Caroline do was she was delighted with the mirrors and she was dancing
48:32
mad, and she was having great fun.
48:34
And I, I thought, "This is great."
48:36
Thought no more of it.
48:37
And then when I went on holidays and he said, you know, "Think of something for
48:40
this room," that's what came into my head.
48:42
I said, "Oh my God, I could turn it into like a little
48:45
dancing mirrored music room."
48:47
So I called it the MMM room, movement method to music.
48:50
And I came back and I said to David, "I have it.
48:53
I thought of it while I was gone."
48:55
And I said, "Do you remember Rudy when he came up and he blah, blah, blah?"
48:57
And he says, "Yeah."
48:58
And he says, "Yeah, go and order the mirrors straight away."
49:00
So I was able to visualize what it was.
49:02
So I just covered a whole room with mirrors.
49:05
'Cause children, they love dancing, but they love looking
49:07
at themselves in the mirrors.
49:08
And we put down the low LED lighting and just redesigned it and put in, I
49:12
said, "We need something simple that, I don't want something computerized
49:16
'cause everyone's not great."
49:16
I said, "We need something that when the child comes up, if they want
49:19
to dance to Peppa Pig or Michael Jackson, they just need to say it
49:22
out loud and the music comes on."
49:24
So that where Alexa came in.
49:26
So we just put it all together and it was up within a week.
49:28
And it, it's very popular.
49:30
The children love it.
49:31
Rupert Isaacson: How, yeah, I was gonna say, how, how much do the kids use it?
49:34
Do they need to be obviously shown it 'cause it's a little bit out of the way?
49:37
Do they then request it?
49:38
Do they start- Or do you have kids who only wanna do that?
49:42
Like, h- how do people interact with the dancing- They, they
49:43
bring it into part ofâ¦
49:45
Helen Picha: We'll say, you know, when we have new school, schools now,
49:48
ex- for example, when they come in I would do a leading course with the
49:52
SNAs, our teachers that are coming in.
49:55
So we'd have two staff with the schools, for example.
49:58
So we would have s- schools would have to bring in staff to us to
50:02
teach them how to lead a horse.
50:03
So we call, we teach them how to do a leading course.
50:06
So I would set up a date for this to happen, so they would all come in, and
50:09
I'd bring them into the indoor arena first, and I would show them around of
50:13
this is where you meet, but this is all our facilities that you can use with your
50:17
children when you come here to Liskinass.
50:19
And so I'll take them up to the music room and show them, and
50:22
take them to the sensory room and the kitchen and everything.
50:24
They're shown everything.
50:25
So that's how it starts.
50:27
So when they come with the children then, they, they know where to go with them.
50:31
Or on the Saturdays then we'll show them around anyone new.
50:34
We show, "Well, this is here for you."
50:35
So it's just part of all our places.
50:38
They know where to go because they've already been shown from the start.
50:41
So they just go in up the stairs, and they turn on their Alexa and away with them.
50:45
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting, though, because we used to find that a
50:48
lot of times when people came out with school groups, the, the aides would
50:53
not necessarily wanna get involved, and they'd wanna sort of stand there
50:56
on their phones and head off to the kitchen and have a cup of tea.
50:59
And we think, well, fair enough to some degree, because everyone
51:03
needs a break, but at the same time, yes, we need your input.
51:06
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
51:07
Rupert Isaacson: Is it, how do you get the the teacher's aides in there
51:10
strutting their funky stuff in-
51:12
Helen Picha: Well, when, when they, when
51:13
Rupert Isaacson: they- â¦ in the dark music room?
51:14
Helen Picha: When theyâ¦
51:15
Well, because we show them.
51:17
Well, they don't have anything to do really.
51:18
Yeah.
51:18
I mean, they take the children up, the children do it themselves.
51:21
They run up the stairs 'cause they see the different color lights coming on, and
51:24
I would just say, "It's Alexa," whatever.
51:26
The children go up, and they just dance around, and the teacher
51:29
will ask Alexa what to put on.
51:30
They, they don't have any work to do because the children will
51:33
just play up there themselves.
51:34
Okay.
51:35
'Cause it's just that inviting atmosphere to go up there.
51:37
It's like when you go into the room and you see the stairs going up.
51:40
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
51:41
Helen Picha: And, you know, there, there is no work involved
51:43
in it- And the lights at the top
51:43
because we kept it very basic and simple by, by using Alexa, so
51:47
you only ask her, and she'll do
51:49
Rupert Isaacson: it.
51:49
And then if you've got a bunch of kids who all want to listen to different
51:51
things, how do you deal with that?
51:53
Helen Picha: Well, the teachers are the ones that are up there with them.
51:55
But you see, if you've a, a group of 10 children that are the same age,
52:00
you know, they're into the same music, most of them anyway, like, you know?
52:03
And if they don't want toâ¦
52:04
You see, we've so many different little areas they can go to.
52:07
Mm-hmm.
52:07
If they don't want to go up and dance to the music, they can go
52:10
down to the indoor arena, or they go out to the playground, or they'll
52:13
go into our little sensory room.
52:15
So they have different, you know- They have different
52:18
things to do when they come.
52:19
It's not just one area.
52:20
They have five or six different things to choose from.
52:23
Rupert Isaacson: And let's now dissect your indoor arena because you, you, you
52:26
keep referring it to as that because that is what its original purpose was.
52:30
Yeah.
52:30
But it's no longer used for that at all.
52:32
Yeah.
52:32
Can you describe what it looks like and how it's set up?
52:37
I think this is a really useful thing for other practitioners to visualize.
52:43
Helen Picha: So initially it was set up as a riding indoor arena with sand.
52:47
So it, it wasn't working.
52:48
We weren't using it.
52:49
We, it just wasn't getting the use that it should get for an indoor arena,
52:53
so it was decided to change this.
52:54
So we put the all-weather carpet down on it.
52:57
There's, the stage is in there, and that's permanently in there then.
53:00
So we have musical instruments up on the stage if children want to go
53:04
up and bang at drums and everything.
53:06
We've loads of flags hanging all around, so it's colorful.
53:09
So you have to make it bright and colorful.
53:12
All around in, we've all different animals up on posters.
53:15
So if the child wants to go over, so there's chickens and there's horses
53:18
and there's ducks and there's all the wild animals, the hares and the fox.
53:22
So we've allâ¦
53:23
There, there must be about 30 different animals all around the walls at eye
53:27
level to a child, so they can go around and sort of talking about that.
53:32
Then we have little bicycles and balls so there's, they can play there.
53:35
They're running around.
53:37
They can use up a lot of energy in there.
53:39
But we also have maybe 20 or 30 p- picnic tables in there.
53:43
So when a group, they comes in, they can have their picnic there.
53:46
They can bring their breakfast with them if they're coming from the schools.
53:49
On the Saturdays, the families can go in and as we tell them, "You
53:52
can stay there all day if you want.
53:54
There's no rush away.
53:54
We're there from half past 9:00 to half past 3:00.
53:56
Bring something to eat."
53:58
They can eat in there on the picnic tables as well.
54:00
They can use our kitchen facilities for making tea or coffee or whatever.
54:03
So it has multiple use, and it's big.
54:06
So we had have three schools in every morning, 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock and
54:10
12 o'clock, and they can overlap.
54:12
So you just need a big area and a big group, and every school looks after their
54:15
own groups, like, but there's enough room in there to cater for them all.
54:20
Rupert Isaacson: It's s- it's so imaginative, and
54:24
it's so commonsensical- Yeah
54:25
but it's absolutely not the norm of what one sees, you know, around in
54:30
your average therapeutic riding place.
54:32
It, you know- Mm-hmm â¦ the, the amount of-
54:35
Helen Picha: There's music on always.
54:36
We'd have music on in the background as well.
54:38
Mm.
54:38
You know, so there's a nice atmosphere in there all the time.
54:43
Rupert Isaacson: When other people come in, I know you guys run trainings, you
54:47
know, at, at Lasquinet and they see the variety of things that you offer, you
54:54
know, particularly off the horse as well as on movement method and other things.
54:58
As you say, the repurposing of that indoor arena into this vast play/social space,
55:04
music space eating space Do you find that the people that come in for the trainings,
55:13
then they go off to set up their own places, are they inspired by that?
55:16
Do they take those things away or, or do you, do you see,
55:19
no, it's really just Liskinit?
55:21
And if it is just Liskinit, why, why do you think that is?
55:24
Why, why do you think this is not the norm of what we see in other places?
55:27
Helen Picha: Well, anybody that has come and we showed them around, like they are
55:30
very impressed with all aspects of it.
55:33
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
55:33
Helen Picha: And you know, we, we will just show them what we do, and it's up to
55:37
each individual, I suppose, to take it.
55:39
It's not everybody would be lucky enough to have that size of an indoor
55:42
arena in their own spaces anyway.
55:44
It's
55:45
Rupert Isaacson: true, but I think most of us can put together
55:47
some sort of social environment-
55:49
Helen Picha: Yeah
55:49
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: which
55:50
Helen Picha: has- But it is important to have a social area-
55:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yes â¦ i-
55:53
Helen Picha: in your, in your thing.
55:54
It's important for where people can come in and sit down and relax,
55:58
and let the children run off and run around in a safe space and know
56:03
there's nothing gonna happen to them.
56:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
56:04
And
56:04
Helen Picha: that's, that's very true of our indoor arena 'cause it
56:07
is big, and like you can see, you, you can sprint up and down, you can
56:10
race in it, like and they would let off a lot of energy, but it's safe.
56:14
There's nothing there to hurt them.
56:16
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's hilarious to me 'cause you, you must be the only
56:19
place, equestrian place, in Ireland that I know that has a big indoor
56:22
arena that doesn't use it for riding or
56:24
Helen Picha: for And, and we, and we have a pool table.
56:25
We also have a pool table in there.
56:27
Okay.
56:27
And we have a table tennis, you know.
56:30
Mm.
56:30
So, you know, the children, and it's great for the use of their hands and everything,
56:33
so it, there's play as, as well in there.
56:35
Like, so your pool table and your table tennis, they're alongside one
56:38
another at the lower section of it.
56:41
And sure, 'tis always, the children are always playing the games there.
56:43
Rupert Isaacson: Mm, mm.
56:45
You know, it's, it's, it's so interesting that when you
56:47
give people the choice, even-
56:49
Helen Picha: Yeah
56:49
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: young people too, even in a, a climate like Ireland
56:53
which- Yeah â¦ can be rough, you know.
56:54
Helen Picha: Yeah, can be raining, yeah.
56:56
Rupert Isaacson: They'll choose the nature, they'll choose the
56:59
outside over the covered arena.
57:03
That- Mm â¦ but they might go inside to play.
57:05
Mm.
57:05
But they want to ride outside.
57:07
It's, it's interesting- Outside, yeah â¦ to me.
57:09
Helen Picha: The inside riding in there did not work.
57:12
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that that's their nervous systems taking
57:14
over and sort of actually saying-
57:17
Helen Picha: Yeah, see, it's more relaxing outside, you see.
57:19
Yeah.
57:19
You're, it's, you know, that, that's theâ¦
57:21
No matter what way, and you try to answer that question, it is more relaxing
57:25
to go outside and just look at the nature and breathe in the fresh air
57:30
than go into this enclosed arena, no matter how nice you try to decorate it.
57:35
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
57:35
Helen Picha: It was just a closed, no fresh air.
57:38
It was boring.
57:39
That's how I would describe it.
57:40
Yeah, yeah.
57:40
It was boring.
57:41
Yeah,
57:41
Rupert Isaacson: sterile.
57:42
Helen Picha: Yeah.
57:45
Rupert Isaacson: We, we've always in Horse Boy tried to encourage
57:48
people to use arenas minimally.
57:50
Helen Picha: Yeah.
57:50
Rupert Isaacson: But it was really interesting to me to see how even
57:53
in County Limerick, which, you know, you can be dealing with horizontal
57:57
rain and blizzards in June, you know.
58:00
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
58:00
Rupert Isaacson: To watch if children have the choice, they will go out.
58:03
Yeah,
58:03
Helen Picha: to go out.
58:04
Yeah, yeah.
58:04
Rupert Isaacson: And that we as adults kind of have to follow them.
58:06
Mm-hmm.
58:07
But, you know, many of us as adults kind of wanna stay in that nice covered arena
58:12
'cause, you know, we don't wanna get wet.
58:13
No.
58:14
And this-
58:14
Helen Picha: So we tell everybody when we're training them to do the
58:17
leading course, and the staff also of the different sections of St.
58:20
Joseph's Foundation, they're also all trained to lead.
58:23
But, you know, we still speak to them when we're training them.
58:27
It's not just training them how to lead a horse.
58:28
We explain to them how important it is, and it is your job as a carer for these
58:34
adults and children to, when they come here to Liskinass, that we give them
58:38
the best productive time that we can.
58:40
And how we do that is take them out.
58:42
It doesn't matter what the weather is, so come dressed appropriately for it.
58:46
You know, if it's raining, you wear your oil gear.
58:48
Yeah.
58:48
You know?
58:49
And, and have your, your rider dressed as well.
58:51
They don't care, the lads don't care if it's raining on the horses.
58:54
They go out.
58:54
Just you put, make sure they have an, a jacket on them for the rain.
58:57
And but so really the staff, your staff training is also very important,
59:02
that they- Yeah â¦ understand you're, you're bringing your, your s-
59:05
service user for their equine session.
59:08
Make sure you're geared up to go out in the rain because
59:11
we're going out in the rain.
59:12
Unless it's horrendously wind at 100 miles an hour, we are going out, and
59:16
everybody knows that now about Liskinass.
59:18
The weather isn't gonna stop us from going out.
59:20
Mm.
59:21
So we are going out, and everybody knows that before they come to us
59:26
So it's very important to, to training of the staff as well, you know
59:28
Rupert Isaacson: So n- not everyone who gets involved in this kind of work wants
59:32
to be out in all weathers like that.
59:33
And it is very hard work what you do.
59:36
It's hard physically.
59:37
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
59:38
Rupert Isaacson: It's hard mentally and emotionally because, as you
59:40
say, you're keeping people safe.
59:41
Mm.
59:42
You've got a lot of people, those Saturdays where you
59:44
have up to, you know, 100-
59:47
Helen Picha: And we're als- â¦ hundred people â¦ we're also doing since
59:48
you've been with us last now, you'll see it when you come in September, we
59:51
have since started doing Sundays in St.
59:54
Joseph's Foundation in Charleville.
59:56
So we take up eight horses- In my local town â¦ in the town,
59:59
so that, that's the base of, we say Liskinagh is a hub under St.
1:00:02
Joseph's Foundation.
1:00:03
Mm.
1:00:03
So there's a five-year project there.
1:00:05
I mean, wait 'til you see this.
1:00:06
You, you'll be fascinated.
1:00:08
There's a five-year project already started now.
1:00:10
We've nearly one year put down.
1:00:12
So there's the swimming pool up there there's the playground
1:00:15
is yet to be put together.
1:00:16
We've a pitch and putt course, and we have our little equine
1:00:19
yard down the bottom of that where we're bringing up eight horses now.
1:00:22
We done every Sunday in July, and we will do every Sunday in August, but
1:00:26
it was two Sundays a month all year.
1:00:29
So we go up there with eight horses, and there could be 100 people
1:00:33
booked in or 120 booked in between the swimming and everything, so
1:00:36
they have the choice to come down.
1:00:37
You don't book for the horse riding.
1:00:39
But this is a huge, again, now for North Cork as well, and
1:00:43
this is really gonna take off.
1:00:44
But it's a five-year project.
1:00:45
It's going to be turned into, like, a mini Tribulgan, like a holiday
1:00:49
resort for families and respite where you can stay for the weekend
1:00:52
with your family or your day.
1:00:54
And so this, this is another, like, part of Liskinagh or St.
1:00:58
Joseph's Foundation that has developed since you were with us last.
1:01:01
And on the 11th of August, which is next week or the week after, and I'm going to
1:01:05
miss this 'cause I'll be away on holidays the Taoiseach is turning the sod in our
1:01:09
new place in Kenturk that we've bought.
1:01:11
The HSE have given us 6 million for that.
1:01:13
So we, David told me this last week, "Helen, you have to organize
1:01:17
this now before you go on holiday."
1:01:18
So we have 17 horses and service users going back to Kenturk on
1:01:21
the 11th of August, and David will arrange all the, the risks for it.
1:01:26
And the Taoiseach is turning the sod on the premises in Kenturk that has
1:01:30
been bought to start up a smaller version of Liskinagh Equine Center.
1:01:34
So that's, it's huge now.
1:01:35
When you see- So there's a lot of
1:01:37
Rupert Isaacson: things â¦ remember, a lot of, a lot of people who
1:01:38
are listening are not Irish.
1:01:38
They don't know what you mean when you say Taoiseach.
1:01:40
Can you
1:01:41
Helen Picha: say- Oh, yeah.
1:01:41
He, he's the we say he's Fianna FÃ¡il or the government of Ireland.
1:01:46
He's the prime
1:01:46
Rupert Isaacson: minister
1:01:47
Helen Picha: effectively.
1:01:47
He, he, he's like the, yeah, he's like the, the government of Ireland.
1:01:51
He's the number one- So the, the prime minister
1:01:52
Rupert Isaacson: effectively-
1:01:53
Helen Picha: Yeah, kind of â¦ is, is gonna go out and turn the sod.
1:01:54
Yeah.
1:01:54
He's gonna turn the sod in Kenturk premises and open up On
1:01:57
your new center, your new satellite center â¦ on a new center that will
1:02:00
be like a smaller version of Liskinagh, which is in the County Cork region.
1:02:05
Great.
1:02:05
So that's huge for us now again, yeah.
1:02:07
Rupert Isaacson: It is, it is, it is, and
1:02:08
Helen Picha: it, it's amazing- So it's constant developing and, you know- I
1:02:12
always said, you know, when you were over there la- two years ago and we'd
1:02:15
done the thing in Limerick Racecourse, and I was interviewed with that with
1:02:19
our CEO, Michael Hegarty, and I stated there that day, you could have a small
1:02:23
Liskeennock in every county in Ireland-
1:02:25
Rupert Isaacson: You certainly
1:02:26
Helen Picha: could
1:02:26
and you would still fill it.
1:02:27
You would still fill it.
1:02:28
Yeah.
1:02:28
You know?
1:02:28
Yeah.
1:02:29
And so it's great that all these other little places are opening up, so a lot.
1:02:33
David is our development officer, so he has, he's worked very hard to
1:02:36
get Charleville up and running, and Kenturk now is in the process as well.
1:02:40
So it's all evolving and just growing and growing, and you have to keep learning and
1:02:44
growing all the time to keep improving.
1:02:47
Rupert Isaacson: What do you do for you and your staff to prevent burnout?
1:02:51
It's a huge undertaking, what you guys do.
1:02:55
Helen Picha: It is.
1:02:55
Yeah.
1:02:56
You first have to have a really good team that works together.
1:02:59
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:02:59
Helen Picha: That's most important, and, and you have them trained.
1:03:01
And as I said, the interview process is very important.
1:03:04
You have to know that they have the passion, but you also have
1:03:07
to know they're good workers.
1:03:09
But you have to look after one another.
1:03:11
For example, if one of the staff is just a little bit tired today, you
1:03:15
know, they need to know that they can say this and they'll be put on easier
1:03:20
duty, as you call it, but they're still there, have to do their job.
1:03:23
You just have to look after one another as a circle.
1:03:26
So you're like, you're a little mini family of work.
1:03:29
You have to still look after one another.
1:03:32
But once you've genuine good staff, caring people and that are willing
1:03:37
to work, it's going to work.
1:03:39
And, like, if you've just even one weak link, it makes it hard for
1:03:42
everyone, but I'm very pleased to say I don't have any weak link.
1:03:45
I've a really, really good circle of staff now that work very well together, and they
1:03:50
look after one another, and it just works.
1:03:52
And once everyâ¦
1:03:53
Like, grand, I went up to David's position as the manager.
1:03:56
I still get up there in the morning, and I won't be coming in with my high heels on.
1:04:00
I come into work, and I'm first in every morning, and I will work with them.
1:04:05
I'm bringing in the horses.
1:04:05
I'm tacking up.
1:04:06
You still have to all work as a group.
1:04:09
Yeah.
1:04:11
And, and it has, you know, and it, you know, it has to be that kind of, this
1:04:14
kind of old way of, "Oh, I'm the boss.
1:04:16
I'm going to tell you what to do, and I'm doing nothing."
1:04:17
That doesn't work.
1:04:19
You have to work as a team, no matter what, where you are.
1:04:21
Whether you're the relief coming in or you're the manager at the
1:04:23
top, you have to work together
1:04:26
Rupert Isaacson: Nonetheless, and, and le- leading from the front is a very
1:04:31
good and very necessary ethic, but, I mean, nonetheless, burnout does happen.
1:04:34
Do you plan for it?
1:04:36
Do you allowâ¦
1:04:37
You know, do you h- strategize for it?
1:04:40
Because of course what one doesn't want is somebody suddenly, who you
1:04:45
were relying upon, you know, imploding.
1:04:48
Yeah.
1:04:49
Or yourself.
1:04:50
Yeah.
1:04:50
How do youâ¦
1:04:51
You know, I, I, I've had to learn over the years certain ways to anticipate it.
1:04:58
For example I used to consider, you know, 'cause I'm old, you
1:05:02
know, and brought up in that old school, that, you know, burnout was
1:05:04
something that other people did.
1:05:07
You know, for this- for weak people or whatever.
1:05:08
You know, you won't get burnout.
1:05:09
And then you realize actually no, everybody does.
1:05:11
And then you realize that actually everybody actually does
1:05:13
it every day because they shut down and they go to sleep, right?
1:05:16
So the body does say, "Sorry, but, you know, that's your lot for today.
1:05:22
Checking out until tomorrow."
1:05:24
And when I sort of started looking at it like that, I started thinking, "Ah, right.
1:05:28
Well, then what one should doâ¦"
1:05:30
What I do is I tend to plan for burnout about every six weeks.
1:05:35
I assume that everybody is going to go through some sort of mini
1:05:40
version of a burnout every six weeks.
1:05:43
And what does that mean?
1:05:44
What will they need?
1:05:46
And of course that's different from person to person.
1:05:48
But I find that even being able to talk about it, you know, it,
1:05:53
it can be, it can be useful.
1:05:55
Obviously you don't want people abusing it, but at the same time- Yeah â¦ if
1:05:58
they can't talk about it, and if it's not allowed, and if it's taboo, then
1:06:04
when it happens it hits like a freight train and it, the whole team collapses.
1:06:08
So I, I do understand that y- y- yes, leadership is great, you
1:06:11
have a great team and so on, but nonetheless people do burn out.
1:06:14
Mm-hmm.
1:06:14
Get tired.
1:06:15
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:06:15
Rupert Isaacson: You know, mid-January, the wind is blowing.
1:06:18
W- w- what do you do practically, you know, to allow for this
1:06:23
and to, yeah, to weather it?
1:06:28
Helen Picha: Well, you do have so many days annual leave that you can take.
1:06:32
So if anyone is tired, you take your annual leave if you need to.
1:06:34
Mm.
1:06:35
You know, and you try to break it up over the different times of the year.
1:06:38
But, you know, when you're, when everybody's working together, you get,
1:06:41
you know, you get to know one another.
1:06:44
Mm.
1:06:44
And you'd know, and you can see if somebody's getting tired.
1:06:47
And then, you know, you just don't push them or, you know, you say,
1:06:51
"Well, you do this today," or we just, we swap around the work.
1:06:54
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:06:54
Helen Picha: But you, you, we kind of work together.
1:06:56
You just have to know one another.
1:06:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:06:59
Helen Picha: That's fine anyway, and it seems to work with us.
1:07:01
You know, if anyone's getting tired, they'll say, "Oh, God, you know, I'm
1:07:03
actually tired today," we just swap around the schedule and just work it like that.
1:07:10
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find, you know, this is often said I certainly have
1:07:12
found it, but do you find that younger people who come into the workforce
1:07:17
now with you that are less resilient than they used to be in the old days?
1:07:21
And if so, how do you build up their resilience so that you can rely on
1:07:26
them in those types of conditions?
1:07:29
Helen Picha: Yes.
1:07:30
We ha- we do have some re- young relief staff, but I just find that they do- they
1:07:35
don't stay if they're not able for it.
1:07:37
Mm.
1:07:37
Like, they will leave, like.
1:07:38
And what will stay, they, they will see it out, and they will keep
1:07:42
improving all the time, like, you know?
1:07:44
I just said they don't stay if they're not able for it.
1:07:47
Right.
1:07:47
Like, they leave, like.
1:07:48
'Cause we- Yeah â¦ w- y- you know, people when they come into us first,
1:07:51
they, we start them on a locum contract.
1:07:53
And it's kind of if and when we need them.
1:07:55
But, but, you know, it's like everywhere, when you get in new
1:07:58
staff, you're just seeing how they are, and you're watching them, and
1:08:00
it, you know, and see how they're progressing and if they're able for it.
1:08:04
And if it doesn't suit them, they won't stay.
1:08:06
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:08:08
Helen Picha: Mm.
1:08:09
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you came out of a racing background, and the
1:08:11
racing background when, you know, we were all younger, even though I
1:08:15
know you're only 21 was very harsh.
1:08:18
You know, the, the, the working conditions on the yards, the, the, the
1:08:22
way people were treated, the, everything.
1:08:24
It, it was- Mm â¦ sort of military I think deliberately with the
1:08:29
idea of, of making people tough for- Yeah â¦ in a dangerous job.
1:08:32
That of course, you know, has its cons as well as its pros.
1:08:39
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:08:39
Rupert Isaacson: What do you feel, y- you know, you said that you
1:08:42
came in from the racing industry and had to sort of relearn, slow
1:08:45
down, just like the horses do.
1:08:47
Yeah.
1:08:47
Okay.
1:08:48
But what did you learn in the racing industry, do you think, that actually
1:08:53
helps you with this job at Liskinitt?
1:08:58
Helen Picha: I suppose first my equine knowledge and experience in working with
1:09:02
the racehorse, And it j- it just teaches you hard work, you know, and discipline.
1:09:07
I was very disciplined from a very young age.
1:09:09
I mean, I was six years of age riding in my first pony race.
1:09:13
Yeah.
1:09:13
So I was very disciplined from a young age.
1:09:14
I was taught you ride out your pony before you go to school.
1:09:17
Yeah.
1:09:18
As I said, it was like military, like.
1:09:19
So coming from that, I was always gonna be a, a good worker, a hard
1:09:24
worker, 'cause I stuck with it.
1:09:26
Do you know?
1:09:26
Mm.
1:09:26
I, I stayed with it.
1:09:27
Like, even though I went out of horses for nearly eight years before I got my job
1:09:31
in Liskinagh, but I always missed them.
1:09:34
I just didn't want to go back into the racing circuit.
1:09:36
Mm.
1:09:37
So I was delighted to go back into them in a, in a different way.
1:09:39
But it definitely teaches you discipline and, and what hard work is about.
1:09:44
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:09:48
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:09:52
bit about the old master system.
1:09:55
of dressage training.
1:09:57
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:10:05
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:10:11
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
1:10:18
well being of the horse and the rider.
1:10:21
Intrigued?
1:10:22
Like to know more?
1:10:24
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
1:10:28
Check out the free introduction course.
1:10:30
Take it from there.
1:10:31
What does it teach you about horsemanship?
1:10:33
What does it teach you about horse maintenance?
1:10:35
What does it teach you about soundness?
1:10:39
What
1:10:39
Helen Picha: there's a lot- Yeah, like, you're learning, I, I was only
1:10:42
22 or 3, I think, when I got out my public racehorse trainer's license.
1:10:47
So that was actually very young now when I think back on it, like.
1:10:50
But like you're dealing with owners and trainers, and I
1:10:52
rode as an amateur for a while.
1:10:54
But it, you have to learn all this if you want to run your own business.
1:10:57
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:10:57
Helen Picha: Do you know?
1:10:58
You know, I had to learn all this as I went along, like, do you know?
1:11:01
Indeed.
1:11:02
But it really, you know, it's, it just stood to me then because I can run a
1:11:05
yard with my eyes closed, you know?
1:11:06
It's just second nature to me.
1:11:07
I, you know, it's just, it's what I've- Yeah â¦ been
1:11:09
doing since I was very young.
1:11:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:11:13
If you were gonna give advice to younger people who di- who are not
1:11:17
coming in with that background that you had let's talk about, say, soundness.
1:11:24
How do you maintain your horses' soundness?
1:11:28
Mm-hmm.
1:11:30
Helen Picha: When I get a, when a new horse comes into Liskinagh now I
1:11:34
will ring our, our vet, John Noonan, and he will give him the once over
1:11:37
a- as the veterinary side of it.
1:11:40
Next one I ring is the dentist, the horse dentist, and he will check
1:11:43
out the horse's teeth and everything if, you know, some of them have been
1:11:46
looked after very well, another horse might have never seen a dentist.
1:11:49
Yes.
1:11:49
So all these things, the farrier is brought in and shoe them, is there any,
1:11:53
is there any problems with the hoof?
1:11:55
So all, they're, like, what I would call basic things, but that's how you start.
1:12:00
You're, you're bringing in your farrier, your vet, your horse
1:12:03
dentist, very important, I would call them very important people.
1:12:06
Mm-hmm.
1:12:07
Because I mean, if the teeth are wrong, they're not eating right,
1:12:09
and that would affect the back.
1:12:10
So you're starting with the basics.
1:12:13
Get your horse checked over from head to toe first.
1:12:16
Rupert Isaacson: And then as they come into the work-
1:12:19
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
1:12:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: fitness, soundness, what's your program there?
1:12:22
Helen Picha: So we'll hop up and we'll ride them around.
1:12:24
You mean, you'd know by just walking and trotting them if they're, you
1:12:27
know, they're sync, they're in line and they're trotting and they're
1:12:29
sound and everything like that.
1:12:31
A lot of them you would have to build up the back line.
1:12:34
Or you'll sit on a thoroughbred and his head is out like that, and, you know,
1:12:37
you have to collect him in and so you're kind of retraining them really, like.
1:12:40
Mm-hmm.
1:12:41
And do it nice and steady.
1:12:42
But you could see the improvement in very quickly, you know.
1:12:46
What- Once you keep itâ¦
1:12:47
And then consistency is kind of, you have to keep consistent with your work.
1:12:51
Rupert Isaacson: What's your go-to for just maintaining that soundness in the
1:12:57
tendons, that soundness in the legs?
1:12:58
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:12:59
Like, as the horse is walking in every morning when I go out for
1:13:01
them in the field, I just check every one of them walking in first.
1:13:05
This is, like, morning routine, that they're sound.
1:13:08
Yeah.
1:13:08
You know?
1:13:09
That's, you know, that they're sound every day.
1:13:12
But you see, we have had some horses come with us and they may have tendon trouble
1:13:16
or, you know, they could have broke down or they were bar fired from racing.
1:13:19
But they're not galloping anymore, so th- that's over.
1:13:22
They're, they'reâ¦
1:13:23
You know, once they're sound, and as you said, the teeth is right and th- they're
1:13:26
checked and they're worm dosed properly a couple of times a year, and their
1:13:30
teeth are done, and you do your flat work with them and you build them up, and
1:13:34
you feed them, and you look after them, your horse is going to stay sound 'cause
1:13:37
they're happy and they're looked after.
1:13:38
Right.
1:13:39
And they're out in their herd, and they're s- they're, they're
1:13:41
in their own little groups.
1:13:43
And you rug them- So they're living outside.
1:13:44
And you rug- They're living outside at night, and then-
1:13:45
Yeah, outside all the time.
1:13:46
Okay.
1:13:46
Be out- outside.
1:13:47
Winter, they're outside all the time.
1:13:49
They're rugged up in the winter, but they're out all year round.
1:13:52
For the race horses, all right, we do have the big barn where they can go in and out
1:13:56
to the field because, you know, they'reâ¦
1:13:57
they'd be a bit they were looked after like in a seven-star hotel, all the ones
1:14:01
belonging to JP McManus, like , and then they're all of a sudden wintered out.
1:14:04
But they're rugged up now right up to the ears.
1:14:07
But they do have a barn, the thoroughbreds, where they can go
1:14:09
in and out, but very important that they can go out, and they will stay
1:14:12
out in the field most of the time.
1:14:14
Yeah.
1:14:14
But the barn is in there for where they, where they have their haylage
1:14:17
they'll come in to eat, but they'll still go back out in the field.
1:14:19
But we find there's no sicknesses or viruses or anything once they're outside.
1:14:25
Rupert Isaacson: And you've gotâ¦
1:14:26
L- how many, how many sessions would you say a horse- Would do in
1:14:32
the course of a day normally okay.
1:14:34
Helen Picha: So, the max, I suppose, a horse would do would be five or
1:14:38
six sessions a day Okay And we would try to keep rotating them around.
1:14:41
That's very important where we have our checklist every day, and every staff,
1:14:46
no matter when they take them out, we have the horse's name down one side,
1:14:49
and all the times are across the top.
1:14:51
So all the staff, it's part of the training, every time you take a horse
1:14:55
out, you're ticking the box so we can see every day how much use each horse has got.
1:15:00
Yeah So we make sure no horse is overused or no horse is underused.
1:15:04
You, you just keeping it balanced all the time, and you're constantly checking this.
1:15:07
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I, I think this is one of the keys of the, of the mental
1:15:10
and physical fitness and soundness, and it's the reason I'm sort of going at
1:15:14
this a little bit like a terrier- Mm-hmm
1:15:16
is, again, I think this is something that someone like you might take for granted.
1:15:20
But it's not, it's, it's not necessarily common knowledge anymore how horses really
1:15:25
stay sound and fit in the legs and in the mind not just cardiovascular fitness.
1:15:32
And so much of that is about, as you know, the long slow work on a hard surface.
1:15:39
Mm.
1:15:39
You were brought up with this, I was brought up with this, this idea that you
1:15:43
don't just want cardio fitness in a horse, you want tendon fitness- Yeah â¦ in
1:15:48
the same way that you would want that in a, in an athlete if they were human.
1:15:51
Mm-hmm.
1:15:51
And the way we were all brought up to do this was long walking and
1:15:56
some, and trotting on firm surfaces.
1:15:59
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:15:59
Rupert Isaacson: This is now largely gone from a lot of people's riding experience.
1:16:03
Mm-hmm.
1:16:03
A lot of people just riding in arenas now.
1:16:05
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:16:06
Rupert Isaacson: So that's why I was asking you how many how many sessions
1:16:09
they might do because I know from that sort of three-kilometer- Three â¦ round
1:16:13
that they might do or if they go up the mountain, I can picture in my mind if a
1:16:17
horse is going to go and do that at the walk and perhaps at some at the trot four
1:16:22
to five times over the course of the day, they are going to walk their 10,000 steps.
1:16:28
You know, they, they- Yeah â¦ they're really gonna get that, which means that-
1:16:31
Mm â¦ they're gonna, and they're gonna do it in nature, and they're gonna do it
1:16:33
with their friends- Yeah â¦ rather than round and round in an arena, and they're
1:16:37
gonna do it over varied terrain as well.
1:16:39
So you put all that together, and what have you got?
1:16:42
You've got t- long slow work on hard surfaces, tendon fitness.
1:16:45
Yeah.
1:16:47
interaction in their herd environment in nature, so that's mental fitness.
1:16:53
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:16:53
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and this is just built into the program.
1:16:57
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:16:57
Rupert Isaacson: Rather than horses being led around arenas-
1:17:01
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
1:17:01
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: getting less and less fit, getting less and less sound-
1:17:04
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm
1:17:04
Rupert Isaacson: and then thinking, "Oh, oh dear, what do we do?"
1:17:07
You know, this horse seems- Yeah â¦ to be breaking
1:17:08
Helen Picha: down.
1:17:08
It would bo- it'd be very boring for them as well just go in the
1:17:11
arena It would and just, yeah.
1:17:13
They would just- You know â¦ they would, you'd, they'd get
1:17:14
depressed from that, like.
1:17:16
Exactly.
1:17:17
And then they, and then they won't work for you.
1:17:19
It's very important.
1:17:20
You know, it's like ourselves, as I said, human and horse, very, very alike.
1:17:25
So if we just as humans went around the same circle all day in arena,
1:17:29
like you'd be depressed going home.
1:17:31
Rupert Isaacson: You would.
1:17:32
Helen Picha: No, I think- So would your horse be.
1:17:33
Your horse would be depressed by the end of the day.
1:17:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:17:36
It's, it's one of the things we, we, we put so much emphasis on in the
1:17:40
training is, like, just remember that the horse, you, the person you're
1:17:45
serving, you're all organisms, you know?
1:17:48
And where, where are organisms designed to be?
1:17:50
They're designed to be out on planet Earth.
1:17:52
They're not designed to be doing what we're doing by a computer screen.
1:17:55
They're not designed to be sitting in traffic.
1:17:57
They're not designed to be in arenas.
1:17:59
They're designed to be out there on the planet, and if you don't do that, there
1:18:03
is this massive mental and emotional cost.
1:18:06
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:18:06
Rupert Isaacson: And the other thing is you, as you're so well aware,
1:18:09
is, you know, if we, if our job is to give wellbeing through horses,
1:18:15
well, how can the horse do that if it does not have wellbeing to give?
1:18:20
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:18:20
Rupert Isaacson: And I've noticed with the horses at Liskinagh over
1:18:23
the years, horses that have been, you know, long-term residents, for example,
1:18:28
like Lady they don't break down.
1:18:30
You know, they- Yeah â¦ they look as good year to year- Yeah â¦ as they do- They
1:18:35
Helen Picha: look, Lady looks as good now as she did 11 years ago.
1:18:39
Rupert Isaacson: She does.
1:18:40
Helen Picha: She probably looks better, yeah.
1:18:41
Rupert Isaacson: She's sort of aged-
1:18:41
Helen Picha: Strong, and they all, they look, they look better, all of them.
1:18:44
They just get lovely and strong, and a lovely neck, and a lovely back line.
1:18:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:18:48
Helen Picha: And they're, they're sound, and they're happy.
1:18:50
And another thing that helps as well is, you know, we, we go out
1:18:53
of Liskinagh as well for events.
1:18:55
Mm.
1:18:55
Like in August now, we are going to Limerick Show.
1:18:57
Mm.
1:18:58
So we take eight of the horses in there, and it's nice for them
1:19:00
again sometimes to have a day out.
1:19:03
It's like us having a day out, a day out somewhere else.
1:19:05
Mm.
1:19:05
So something else, something different completely, and then very important
1:19:09
to have the next day off at home then.
1:19:12
So you have to make sure that they have their day off, like we
1:19:14
have our day off, they have to have their day off as well, like.
1:19:18
Yeah.
1:19:18
But to go somewhere else, you know, they're, this is
1:19:20
a great day for the horses.
1:19:21
They're all excited to go into Limerick show and everything, and we'll ride
1:19:24
them around, 'cause 10 or 15 minutes they don't know what's happening
1:19:26
because we'll take in eight of them.
1:19:28
Half of these will be thoroughbreds that'll go in now
1:19:30
on, on the, in August the 23rd.
1:19:32
But we'll ride them around for 10 or 15 minutes and then they
1:19:35
come back down and they relax.
1:19:37
They realize, okay, we're in here to do a job.
1:19:39
So we'll have three, three groups of eight children riding, 24 children
1:19:42
coming in and doing three classes, and every child will get a rosette
1:19:47
and a certificate and a bag of sweets.
1:19:48
And we'd have two ex-jockeys inside the middle and they, as if they're
1:19:51
judges, but they're going around talking to all the children and everything.
1:19:54
So they're delighted, and the families are delighted.
1:19:56
So there's show jumping going on in all the other arenas around us, and here's
1:20:01
our eight horses inside in the middle, taking no notice of all this, doing their
1:20:05
job With the service user and them, yeah.
1:20:07
Rupert Isaacson: It's brilliant It's, it's, it's so wonderful.
1:20:09
That, this is, of course, what inclusion means.
1:20:11
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:20:11
Rupert Isaacson: I, I remember, as you said, two years ago, being
1:20:13
with you, and we all took the horses out to Limerick Racecourse.
1:20:16
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
1:20:16
Rupert Isaacson: And I remember thinking, and, and, and you had your
1:20:19
service users, your autistic kids- Mm
1:20:20
go up there in jockeys' colors-
1:20:22
Helen Picha: Yeah
1:20:22
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: with short irons And going into the collecting ring.
1:20:26
And- Mm â¦ I remember thinking, "Wow, this is, this is ambitious."
1:20:30
Yeah.
1:20:31
Because now we're taking these horses that have been retrained out of
1:20:34
that environment- Yeah, back into it â¦ back into that environment.
1:20:37
Mm.
1:20:37
They're gonna think that they're about to go race.
1:20:40
Helen Picha: I actually remember Staker Wallace.
1:20:42
So that was his, he's one of JP McManus' horses.
1:20:44
It was his first time back in a racecourse since he finished racing.
1:20:48
And so he was walking in.
1:20:50
I, I was a bit conscious of him, so I was walking near him, and he's 16.2,
1:20:54
qui- grand big bay horse.
1:20:56
But I'm not joking you, he went to 17.2
1:20:58
as he was walking into the parade ring.
1:21:00
Yes.
1:21:00
I said, and the eyes, I said, "Oh my God, Staker, just relax."
1:21:04
And but then, 'cause the microphone was on, and literally then within
1:21:08
a half a round or a round of the arena, of the parade ring, he
1:21:11
just settled back down again.
1:21:13
So he realized, actually, do you know what?
1:21:14
I'm not going racing here.
1:21:15
I don't have a jockey up on top of me even though there was colors on.
1:21:18
But he just, for that 10 strides coming in, he actually grew another hand.
1:21:23
And I said, "Oh, God, I saw him," I said.
1:21:25
But then he just, he came back down again.
1:21:28
I said, "Good boy."
1:21:29
But he just, yeah, he forgot for a, for a minute.
1:21:31
But he did nothing.
1:21:32
He just said, "Oh, God, I'm back again.
1:21:34
I'm going racing today."
1:21:35
But yeah, no.
1:21:36
It- He did great.
1:21:37
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's so important to do these kinds of things.
1:21:39
You know, we used to do a lot of that in Austin when we were li-
1:21:42
you know, had our place in Texas.
1:21:43
We would t- take the horses down 6th Street, you know, which is like-
1:21:46
Yeah â¦ Bourbon Street, in the middle of the night, you know, and take them
1:21:49
out to meet the revelers and talk to people about autism and pick up, you
1:21:53
know, volunteers and supporters that way.
1:21:55
And we would take our horses into local city parks and just- Yeah â¦ set up
1:21:59
and do, like, pop-up play dates for kids- Yeah â¦ in disadvantaged areas.
1:22:03
Just show up with the horse trailer, take the horses out.
1:22:05
Mm.
1:22:05
Or we'd take them to schools, that sort of thing.
1:22:08
And I, I agree with you, the horses love it.
1:22:10
They love the variety.
1:22:10
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:22:11
And the, and the more you do of it then- The better they get every time
1:22:14
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
1:22:15
It's
1:22:15
Helen Picha: a- Because, yeah, they just say, "Okay, no matter where
1:22:17
we're going, we're going to a safe environment and there's nothing, we
1:22:20
know nothing's gonna happen," and, you know, they have fun with it after.
1:22:23
But it's important to do it, important to do it for the horses, the
1:22:26
children that's coming in, the staff.
1:22:28
You need variety, and you need these extra little bits to do it, just not the same
1:22:33
monotonous all year round same thing.
1:22:35
Yes.
1:22:35
It's all about changing and learning, and I'm sure there's still loads of stuff
1:22:40
that we have to learn in Liskeennare and learn more, and we're always, you
1:22:43
know, we don't pretend we know it all.
1:22:45
We'd always try and learn and listen to anything new that's
1:22:48
going or how can we make it better.
1:22:50
There are still ways to make even Liskeennare better.
1:22:53
We just have to be open to learning it, which we are.
1:22:56
Rupert Isaacson: You know, back, back to my question about burnout, I think
1:22:58
that too largely also answers it because not only is, in the course of a day,
1:23:01
is there so much nature and exploration going on for horses and for humans,
1:23:06
but also I think these, these constant sort of celebrations, if you like.
1:23:11
They're almost like- Yeah â¦ little mini festivals through the year.
1:23:13
I know that you guys do a lot of music shows as well.
1:23:16
Helen Picha: Mm.
1:23:16
Rupert Isaacson: You know, th-
1:23:16
Helen Picha: Yeah, usually every year we do a kind of a fundraising concert, so
1:23:20
it's kind of like November every year.
1:23:21
We done it May now this year.
1:23:23
But even for the staff, that's just the best fun we have.
1:23:26
There is none of us professional singers but we can sing.
1:23:29
But we had, this year now was most of the new staff's first time, and I mean,
1:23:34
they were all, "Helen," and I says, "Don't worry," but I'd be very kind
1:23:37
of, "We have to prepare for this to be given out, but I'd be so strict."
1:23:40
I said, "Lads, there's 4 or 500 people in the arena.
1:23:43
We must have our homework done here, like."
1:23:44
So we do plenty of rehearsals, which were went off on the day.
1:23:48
Sure they were delighted.
1:23:49
But it's great bonding in a different way.
1:23:51
Mm.
1:23:52
So we're there after work, so we have to go in and practice after
1:23:55
work, but we have great fun doing it.
1:23:57
So then by the time we would pull together for the day of the concert,
1:24:00
it, and it all goes and thank God every year it has went off very well, like.
1:24:04
And then there's just this great, "Oh, thank God, it was brilliant."
1:24:07
Like, "Oh, Helen, you were right.
1:24:08
We had great time.
1:24:09
We enjoyed it to bits."
1:24:10
And they're beaming from ear to ear.
1:24:12
But we're looking at all, when we're up on the stage, we're looking out and
1:24:15
it's all the families that come into us- And they, you know, this year when
1:24:19
they were looking at Padraig and Darren and Sharon and all the new girls, they
1:24:23
couldn't, they didn't recognize them first all dressed up because they're
1:24:25
usually there with dirty gear on them.
1:24:27
And here were all the girls with lovely black mini dresses on and, and the boys
1:24:30
with shirts and ties and everything, and everybody singing together as a group,
1:24:35
three different songs on the stage.
1:24:36
It was the best fun ever, like.
1:24:37
But it's very important outside of your equine work that you do
1:24:41
different stuff like this as a group of people working together.
1:24:45
Mm-hmm.
1:24:45
Like last night, for example, I always make sure we go out two, t- twice a
1:24:50
year for a celebratory work party.
1:24:53
It was only a few drinks in a pub and brewery, but there was between ourselves
1:24:57
and the volunteers, nearly 25 people there, and I arranged finger food
1:25:02
and everybody would get a few drinks.
1:25:04
But sure, everyone had great fun.
1:25:06
But that's- Yeah â¦ just team building that we do at the end of the summer,
1:25:09
and we do it again for Christmas.
1:25:11
Mm, mm.
1:25:11
And they look forward to it.
1:25:12
They say, "Hey, when are we going again?
1:25:13
When's our next one?"
1:25:14
So we'll put a set of day together, and again, very important part of
1:25:19
building your team and celebrating what happened this year and
1:25:24
saying thank you to everybody.
1:25:25
Mm.
1:25:25
And thank you to the volunteers for helping us build such a good team
1:25:30
and look after so many children and so many families, and it's
1:25:34
very important to do that as well.
1:25:36
Do you know?
1:25:36
Yeah, the- It's just, it can't, it can't be all about work.
1:25:38
Rupert Isaacson: The- these get-togethers, they're so important.
1:25:40
You know, as y- as you know- Oh, yeah
1:25:41
in Horse Boy, we have every two years we do Tribe Day.
1:25:44
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:25:44
Rupert Isaacson: And last year we did it in Ireland.
1:25:45
In Ireland, yeah.
1:25:45
Next year we'll, I think we'll probably do it in Spain.
1:25:48
So you have to come to that.
1:25:49
And everyone gets to get together.
1:25:51
Yeah â¦ all the different people from the Horse Boy world, you
1:25:53
know, all over, get together, you know, f- for those two, three days,
1:25:57
have the craic together, exchange.
1:25:59
You know, "What have you been up to?"
1:26:01
People present what they've been up to, but also they're just having fun and
1:26:05
getting to know each other again or- For sure, yeah â¦ meeting new people.
1:26:08
I do agree, you know, we were talking about burnout earlier.
1:26:10
All of these things are so important that the job isn't a job.
1:26:16
You, there's, there's, there's one last thing I want to talk about, which
1:26:18
is something that's very dear to my heart and very similar to a project
1:26:21
that we do in Germany every year, which is our inclusive fox hunting day.
1:26:25
Helen Picha: Oh, yes.
1:26:26
Yeah.
1:26:26
Rupert Isaacson: So, and before the anti-fox hunters in the audience jump up
1:26:31
and down in the comments, don't worry, we're not having an actual hunting day.
1:26:36
We are simulating the feeling of it.
1:26:39
Helen Picha: Mm-hmm.
1:26:39
Rupert Isaacson: And with our one in Germany, we're, we're going out with a
1:26:41
pack of bloodhounds and we lay the trails So that the kids who are coming out on
1:26:48
the therapy ponies we have a field of kids who are doing that who would never
1:26:51
get to experience something like this.
1:26:53
Mm-hmm.
1:26:53
We lay the trail so that the hounds are hunting in sort of circles around
1:26:58
them, usually hunting one of us.
1:27:00
So they're, they're at the heart of the action.
1:27:03
And of course the amount of hor- training we have to put the horses through
1:27:05
for this is insane to make them safe.
1:27:07
But we do because it's so important.
1:27:09
And we've had- Yeah â¦ you know, people sort of with spina bifida
1:27:11
say, you know, "Wow, I've been, like, deep in the forest on the horse, you
1:27:15
know, c- crossing ditches, y- doing stuff, listening to the cry of hounds.
1:27:19
Stuff I would never get to do."
1:27:20
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:27:21
Rupert Isaacson: And then we've taken it further now where we will
1:27:23
say, "Okay, it's a countryside day," so we'll have kids from
1:27:27
disadvantaged areas in the local town.
1:27:30
A lot of them are refugee kids, you know?
1:27:32
They're new to the country, they're new to the countryside, and they'll follow,
1:27:36
you know, in the, in the tractor ride.
1:27:38
And we'll explain to them, "Okay, this is how the farm works, and we're growing th-
1:27:43
this in this field and this in that field, and w- here's the wildlife that's living
1:27:47
in that wood, and this is, you know, how these eggs actually arrive at your door.
1:27:51
And, and then there's a party afterwards and everyone's invited."
1:27:53
Mm.
1:27:54
Yeah.
1:27:54
And we're always thinking, you know, who are the people who are gonna be in charge?
1:27:57
Of the country, you know, in the next 30, 40 years it might be these kids.
1:28:01
And if they don't value the countryside, why, why, you know, they'll pave it over.
1:28:05
Mm-hmm.
1:28:05
So you guys do something quite similar- Mm â¦ with the Limerick, the L- the-
1:28:08
Yeah, we do â¦ the Limerick Harriers.
1:28:10
Y- talk to us about how that works.
1:28:11
Is it, I think it's- So
1:28:12
Helen Picha: we, we do it every year between Christmas and the new year.
1:28:15
Mm.
1:28:16
So in Nov- in November now, or end of October, November, I'll
1:28:19
speak with the hunt that we go with and we'll set out a date.
1:28:22
So again, last Christmas, we'll say we had all our horses went in it.
1:28:26
I think we'd 25 horses in it.
1:28:29
And with the children, we try and rotate them every year, the
1:28:32
children that will ride in it.
1:28:33
So again, we're depending on our staff and volunteers to come back
1:28:36
in on their Christmas break, 'cause we finish up before Christmas and
1:28:40
we're back then just in January.
1:28:41
It's the only time of the year now we're actually closing down in Liskinagh.
1:28:45
We don't close anymore in the summer or anything.
1:28:47
We keep going the whole time, because we found when we did close for two
1:28:50
weeks in the summer, those children and families had nowhere to go.
1:28:53
Mm.
1:28:54
So we, we had a meeting, we discussed, we said, "No, we'll keep running."
1:28:56
But we do close that little time over Christmas.
1:28:58
So we come back in then the day before the hunt, and that's when we have to
1:29:02
prepare and get the horses ready, and they all have to be ridden and do work
1:29:05
with them and clean them up and that's, that's the hardest day of work, actually.
1:29:09
But before I'd go on holidays, I'd have the riders and the horses matched with one
1:29:13
another, get onto all our volunteers that will help and the staff that will come in.
1:29:18
And again, it's a big, huge day for the family.
1:29:21
And it's kind of a children's meeting for the hunt as well, where all the
1:29:25
children that do ride hunting can come in and they're all dressed up.
1:29:29
It's a fancy dress.
1:29:31
There'd be a prize for whoever'd win that in the fancy dress.
1:29:33
So we could have, with our 25 horses, there could be another 60 ponies there as
1:29:38
well, and a lot of them would be led or s- some children can ride by themselves,
1:29:42
and they're all dressed up in fancy dress.
1:29:44
So we've a huge crowd in Liskinagh and the f- the dogs will do all our sensory trail.
1:29:50
Now we keep on the trails all around and double back and over again.
1:29:53
And there'd be some lady picking out first, second, and
1:29:56
third for the best turned out.
1:29:58
But then it's into the indoor arena after then.
1:30:00
So we'd have a huge party in there with food and sandwiches and drinks,
1:30:04
and could go on for a couple of hours.
1:30:07
But again, it's just inclusion, as you said, and these children will never
1:30:11
get to ride in a hunt atmosphere.
1:30:13
So- Yeah â¦ but they do here, and they, they look forward to it now
1:30:15
every year, and it's very important that we come back in during our
1:30:18
Christmas break and we do this event And yeah, it's, it's very popular
1:30:21
Rupert Isaacson: Again, this is just not the sort of thing which you find in
1:30:23
your average therapeutic riding place.
1:30:25
Helen Picha: Yeah, no.
1:30:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah Is they, okay, let's do an inclusive hunting day.
1:30:27
Let's do-
1:30:28
Helen Picha: Yeah
1:30:28
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: let's have all the kids go ride at the local show.
1:30:30
Let's- Yeah â¦ you know, have these mu- these music- Yeah â¦ shows.
1:30:33
I
1:30:33
Helen Picha: think- They're very, it's, if you have, it's very important
1:30:36
to get all these different things in to- Yeah â¦ your therapeutic, just
1:30:41
to have different, to take away the monotonous of the same thing every day.
1:30:45
Rupert Isaacson: This, and also I think usually these types of events,
1:30:49
so let's say it's a, a music show.
1:30:52
Let's- Mm-hmm â¦ you know, l- 'cause I know you get some re- relatively big names
1:30:54
that also come in on these music nights.
1:30:57
Let's say it's a hunting day.
1:30:58
Let's say it's riding at the local show.
1:31:00
Let's say it's riding up the mountain.
1:31:02
These are the sorts of things which normally the people that we
1:31:05
serve are kind of excluded from.
1:31:08
And then- Yes â¦ if they get to ride, it's in this sort of hyper-controlled
1:31:11
environment- Yeah â¦ where it's still very, very clear that, okay, you guys
1:31:16
couldn't handle, like, the real thing.
1:31:18
And there's a sort of underlying
1:31:23
Oh, patronizing but also excluding message that comes from that saying,
1:31:28
"You guys will never, you know, really get to participate in the good things.
1:31:33
You'll always have to have some sort of special corner,
1:31:37
some sort of special niche."
1:31:38
And what you guys are doing there at Liskin is blowing that to pieces and
1:31:41
saying- Yeah â¦ "No, absolutely."
1:31:42
Yeah.
1:31:42
Whether it's the local show, whether it's the local hunt, whether it's the
1:31:45
local music show, whether it's going up the mountain, you're doing it.
1:31:49
We're doing it.
1:31:49
Mm-hmm.
1:31:49
We're doing it together.
1:31:51
But as you say, it's an insane amount of work.
1:31:53
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:31:54
Like, even the horse is now going to Limerick Show in the 23rd of August.
1:31:57
They'll know the pattern that they'll be doing inside, you know-
1:32:00
Yeah â¦ in and out through the poles or child reaching out, putting
1:32:03
the cone on and different stuff.
1:32:04
But the horse is, already knows what he's going to do.
1:32:07
And if we have children that are a little bit more capable, and even on the day,
1:32:11
you see you have all the families around the outside of the ring looking at this.
1:32:13
But we'd have a leader with every horse, but our horses are so disciplined
1:32:17
and good now that we can say, okay, we take them out individually then
1:32:21
to do one little pattern of work.
1:32:22
But m- majority of them will be taken off the lead for that,
1:32:25
and we just walk beside him.
1:32:27
But the most they do then is the seat of trot.
1:32:30
So we'd walk in and out through the little poles, and then we might do the
1:32:33
straight lines across on the seat of trot.
1:32:35
So the staff riding is g- just going along with them.
1:32:38
And just to giving him that little bit of independence where
1:32:41
they're doing it on their own without you hooking onto the rope.
1:32:45
Mm-hmm.
1:32:46
Even that little bit is huge, and the parents are at the side and they're s-
1:32:50
they're just beaming and they're, they get- Yes â¦ a lovely certificate at
1:32:53
the end of the day saying, Mary John has ridden Staker Wallace on Limerick
1:32:58
Show on the 23rd, and they take and take that home and frame it, like.
1:33:02
Yeah, yeah.
1:33:02
And they get a lovely rosette, a first prize rosette, and they'll get a bag of
1:33:06
sweets, and we'll have tea and coffee after and minerals and sandwiches in
1:33:09
the middle of the arena when it's all over before we take the horses back.
1:33:13
And it's just, it's a lovely family gathering day out for all the families.
1:33:17
So we'd have 24 families going there on that Sunday now, and they'll all
1:33:21
support one another in the different classes, 'cause it's a, 'cause
1:33:24
every half an hour there's a class.
1:33:26
But they'll all support one another's children in the three classes.
1:33:29
And each child that will be, that will stay around, some children can't
1:33:32
obviously wait around, but some of them will, so they'll help one, you
1:33:35
know, it's, it's just again, and as you said, in the, all the rings around
1:33:39
us, there's show jumping going on.
1:33:42
To know, and there's all, all the people watching that, but
1:33:44
loads of people will come over and watch, watch our show as well
1:33:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it allows the families to participate
1:33:51
in this, the sort of good life-
1:33:55
Helen Picha: Yeah
1:33:55
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: there in, in County Limerick.
1:33:57
You know, it's a, it's a rural area.
1:33:59
The, the, the, the fun to be had is out there and in these shows.
1:34:03
It's in these events.
1:34:03
Yeah.
1:34:03
It's in, it's on the mountain.
1:34:05
It's, it's with the hunt.
1:34:06
It's, it's at the racecourse.
1:34:07
It's doing all these things.
1:34:08
Yeah.
1:34:09
And, or, you know, 20 years ago, these people would've been completely excluded-
1:34:15
Helen Picha: Yeah
1:34:16
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: from that.
1:34:16
They
1:34:16
Helen Picha: w- yeah.
1:34:17
They wouldn't have gone to these shows, no.
1:34:17
Rupert Isaacson: And they'd have been hidden away somewhere.
1:34:19
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:34:20
Rupert Isaacson: So I really salute what you guys are doing.
1:34:23
I think it's absolutely the cutting edge.
1:34:25
And, you know, anyone who's listening to this, you know, can you take one
1:34:29
thing from what Liskinitt is doing?
1:34:32
Is it the music and dance room?
1:34:34
Is it getting the kids to your local show and creating those classes for them?
1:34:40
Is there a local pack of hounds that you can talk to?
1:34:43
You know, it's very interesting that the hunting world is often
1:34:46
seen as, and portrayed as something very exclusive and snobby.
1:34:51
Yeah.
1:34:51
And actually, I think as you found, and as I've found, it's not like that at all.
1:34:55
If you-
1:34:55
Helen Picha: Not at all, no â¦ i-
1:34:56
Rupert Isaacson: if, they're often the people who will
1:34:57
bend over backwards the most.
1:34:59
Helen Picha: Yeah, and they are bending over backwards, and you
1:35:01
know, straight away they'll be on with, "We'll do this date, Helen, and
1:35:04
we'll bring sandwiches, and weâ¦"
1:35:05
And they just, the whole lot of, of the, the Limerick Harriers,
1:35:09
they're just all coming together to make this a really good day.
1:35:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:35:13
You know?
1:35:13
You know, ca- can, is there a, is there a, a music show that you can do?
1:35:17
Is
1:35:20
there, you know, whatever the, Liskinitt's doing them all . Yeah.
1:35:22
You know?
1:35:23
There's a lot here to learn, and there's a lot here to give inspiration to, that
1:35:29
therapeutic riding, equine-assisted work is not standing in arenas with horses.
1:35:34
It's not leading people around boringly.
1:35:38
It's engaging in life-
1:35:42
Helen Picha: Yeah
1:35:42
Rupert Isaacson: through the horse.
1:35:43
Yeah.
1:35:44
Engaging in the equestrian life of your area and making
1:35:49
that accessible and inclusive.
1:35:52
So I think, you know, you're running Liskinitt now, but I think you probably
1:36:00
don't quite realize yet, Helen, that you're probab- you're in this position
1:36:05
now where you sort of now start, need to start becoming a bit of a consultant
1:36:09
of, and a bit of a trainer of how to actually deliver this type of service.
1:36:14
Because you do it every day, you think that that's the norm.
1:36:17
You and I both know it's not the norm, you know?
1:36:19
Yeah.
1:36:19
Liskinitt's the cutting edge.
1:36:21
W- w- what w- would your advice be to somebody coming into the industry now,
1:36:31
the equine-assisted industry, knowing what you know, knowing the types
1:36:35
of services that you guys deliver?
1:36:37
What would you say are the, like the five fundamentals that people
1:36:41
really need to bear in mind?
1:36:44
Helen Picha: So if you're coming into work, and it is,
1:36:45
is that what you're asking me-
1:36:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm,
1:36:47
Helen Picha: mm-hmm â¦ private person?
1:36:49
Rupert Isaacson: N- n- gi- given the types of, you know, service that you
1:36:52
provide, you know, that you have to think beyond things like health and safety.
1:36:56
You have to think beyond- Oh,
1:36:57
Helen Picha: yeah
1:36:57
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: things that you, you, you- If you,
1:36:58
Helen Picha: if you're thinking everything health and safety,
1:37:00
and it's at the forefront of your brain, you're gonna do nothing.
1:37:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:37:03
Helen Picha: I mean, if you see a difficult child coming in, you're gonna
1:37:05
freeze, and you're not gonna put them up.
1:37:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:37:07
Helen Picha: You have to trust your staff that you've trained.
1:37:09
You gotta trust your horse, that you have your horse trained properly.
1:37:13
And you got to have the knowledge to put your child and your horse together.
1:37:17
Mm.
1:37:18
You know, people said, "How could you do it?"
1:37:20
But I suppose it's, it's years of exper- it's experience as well, and just
1:37:24
learn from those that are training you.
1:37:26
If you're interested to learn, you, you keep learning.
1:37:28
Like, you should be able to â¦ I can tell from a child coming in, by the time he
1:37:33
comes down to me, what horse I'm gonna put him in, if it's his first time coming in.
1:37:37
You just know by the anxiety of the child coming down or if they're confident
1:37:42
and, "I want a big horse," like.
1:37:43
But you'll always, obviously, go for the safer horse for the first time.
1:37:47
But then they always wanna progress on.
1:37:50
So y- and as your child is progressing on, the ones that come in every week, you'll
1:37:54
need to progress on with them, like.
1:37:56
You can't just be doing the same, walking around all the time.
1:37:59
You need to be- Mm
1:37:59
constantly progressing on with your children.
1:38:01
It's not â¦ We're not a riding school, but you still need to encourage your
1:38:06
child and give them confidence, and get them ready- People need purpose,
1:38:09
people need growth, yes â¦ if, if, yes.
1:38:10
If they w- Yeah â¦ if they're ready to go to the riding school, then
1:38:13
you've done a good job if you've got, go and get them to there, like.
1:38:16
Mm, mm.
1:38:16
You know, and you have to look at that, and you have to be
1:38:19
kind and loving and caring.
1:38:20
And the trust that they're, those families are doing to our staff
1:38:25
every day to give their child to you to take them out on a horse.
1:38:28
Mm.
1:38:29
That's, they, they really have to trust you to do this, like.
1:38:31
Mm.
1:38:31
So we have to have our job done before they give us the child, which is having
1:38:36
your staff trained, having your proper staff, having your horse where they
1:38:39
should be, like, so that when they go out, there's nothing gonna happen to them.
1:38:42
But definitely the person that's huge in, and I know, like, if Michael Hegarty's
1:38:47
listening to me now, health and safety.
1:38:49
Y- yes, health and safety is very important, but if you have your
1:38:52
homework done- Yes â¦ before your child comes in, there won't be
1:38:55
any issues with health and safety.
1:38:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:38:57
I, I, I so agree.
1:38:58
I mean, one of
1:38:59
Helen Picha: the things- But you have to take, you know, yeah.
1:39:01
That you have to have your homework done first.
1:39:03
Yeah.
1:39:03
And when everything is done right, y- there won't be any problems then.
1:39:06
Rupert Isaacson: Horsemanship and the preparation of horses, it, it, it-
1:39:08
Helen Picha: Yes, very important.
1:39:10
Like, we've 88, 80-something acres in Liskinagh, and I was speaking with David.
1:39:14
So going forward in the plan, we are hoping to set up a, a training
1:39:20
area away from the Liskinagh.
1:39:22
It's, you know, 'cause we have 80 acres at the other side of the
1:39:24
farm, on the training of actually horses for- people setting up for,
1:39:30
Yeah â¦ equine therapy centers.
1:39:32
Yeah.
1:39:32
And it's very important that they're done properly as well.
1:39:34
Like, you know, just, you just can't pull in a horse and throw a
1:39:36
child up on them with a disability.
1:39:38
No.
1:39:39
It doesn't matter if they're a cob or a thoroughbred or a small pony, you
1:39:41
have to take them, there has to be a process before they, you get to there.
1:39:45
And again, as I said, it's like you said with health and safety,
1:39:48
there won't be any problems if your homework is done before- Yeah â¦ you
1:39:52
introduce a child to the horse.
1:39:53
Rupert Isaacson: And so much is also creativity and joy.
1:39:56
Yeah.
1:39:56
You know, I, I, I think that what-
1:39:57
Helen Picha: Your environment has to be right as well, yeah
1:39:59
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and, and you're, you're delivering what you do.
1:40:01
You're, you're taking people who are effectively poisoned by cortisol-
1:40:05
Yeah â¦ poisoned by stress.
1:40:06
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:40:06
Rupert Isaacson: And you're delivering the antidote, you're
1:40:09
delivering oxytocin- That's it
1:40:10
you're delivering serotonin, you're delivering joy and happiness, which
1:40:14
cannot be done without creativity.
1:40:16
Helen Picha: No.
1:40:16
Rupert Isaacson: It, you know, and
1:40:17
Helen Picha: that's an activity- Do you know, it's, some people when they come
1:40:19
in first and if the child started crying on the horse and they'd stop and stand.
1:40:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:40:24
Helen Picha: You know what?
1:40:24
You, you keep walking.
1:40:26
You know- Yeah â¦ you're, you're working on the child, and often a child would
1:40:29
get up and they could start crying in our place if it's their first time.
1:40:32
But we say, "No, keepâ¦"
1:40:33
We get them up and we keep walking, and by the time they're halfway
1:40:36
under the arches, they're stopped and they're smiling and everything.
1:40:39
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:40:39
Helen Picha: So a lot of people are making the mistake, again, it's
1:40:41
like thinking of health and safety.
1:40:42
"Oh, this child is very upset, we better take them off."
1:40:45
But you've nothing- Well- â¦ you've nothing done then.
1:40:47
You, you need to try and keep them, talk to them- It- â¦ and distract them and
1:40:51
get them walking, get the oxytocin going, and literally halfway under the arches.
1:40:56
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, which you're talking about 30 yards.
1:40:57
You can
1:40:57
Helen Picha: see the change.
1:40:58
Yeah.
1:40:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:40:59
I mean, it's, it's, as you know, it's a fine line.
1:41:00
With, with the Horse Boy trainings we always say follow the child.
1:41:03
If the kid wants down in 10 seconds- Yeah â¦ you let them down.
1:41:05
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:41:06
Or yes, if they're very, you knowâ¦
1:41:07
But if you're, you know, s- there's a difference if they're distressed- Mm
1:41:10
or if they're just a bit nervous because they haven't been on a horse before.
1:41:12
Rupert Isaacson: Or having trouble with the transition.
1:41:14
Yes,
1:41:14
Helen Picha: exactly.
1:41:14
Yeah.
1:41:14
It's just that transition over.
1:41:16
Yeah.
1:41:16
Rupert Isaacson: But what I've often found, I know you found this
1:41:19
too, is that if you let kids in the early stages particularly, if they
1:41:22
want down, "Okay, just get down."
1:41:24
Mm-hmm.
1:41:24
Then frequently they're, but they walk along next to the horse with some- Yeah.
1:41:28
Helen Picha: They trust
1:41:28
Rupert Isaacson: you now.
1:41:28
Yeah.
1:41:28
And then they often want back up.
1:41:29
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:41:30
Yeah.
1:41:30
Rupert Isaacson: Or they don't want back up, they run away
1:41:33
to do something different.
1:41:34
They go to your music studio, they go to whatever.
1:41:36
Yeah.
1:41:36
But then we usually find that you look up six to eight weeks
1:41:42
later and they're riding.
1:41:45
Yeah.
1:41:45
Because we didn't push it at the beginning.
1:41:47
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:41:47
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.
1:41:47
You
1:41:47
Helen Picha: don't push, like, push
1:41:49
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but it's, it's, I think, I think so much of what you're-
1:41:55
Doing that is involving people in, and horses, in processes of creativity and joy
1:42:02
Helen Picha: Yeah
1:42:03
Rupert Isaacson: with this really solid underlayer of full on professional
1:42:08
horsemanship just to make sure that what you're, the base you're going from is
1:42:14
sound, and solid, and safe, and happy- Yeah â¦ and sh- wants to do the job.
1:42:19
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:42:19
Rupert Isaacson: But then-
1:42:20
Helen Picha: You know, if you have a horse and there's, they're notâ¦
1:42:22
You know, if you have a lovely horse and you see on a day they're sour, they're,
1:42:26
there's usually something wrong with them.
1:42:27
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:42:28
Helen Picha: Yeah, indeed.
1:42:28
Yeah, that's their way of telling you, like, "I'm not right today," or,
1:42:31
"I'm tired today," or, like, you also have to be able to read your, your
1:42:34
horse every day as well, like, so.
1:42:36
Yes.
1:42:36
Not every day they're going to be perfectly and happy,
1:42:39
Rupert Isaacson: you know?
1:42:39
It's so true, that, that- Yeah â¦ yeah, follow the child is
1:42:41
als- there's also follow the horse.
1:42:42
Follow
1:42:43
Helen Picha: the horse, yeah.
1:42:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and if the horse, you're, you're so
1:42:45
right, if a horse tells me-
1:42:46
Helen Picha: Yeah
1:42:47
â¦ " Rupert Isaacson: No, Rupert, not today," I'll always listen.
1:42:49
Helen Picha: Yeah, "Not today."
1:42:51
Yeah.
1:42:51
Just let them off or give them a feel all over.
1:42:53
They could be sore under the girth.
1:42:54
It could be something very small, but it's- Mm â¦ enough to agitate them.
1:42:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:42:58
Mm-hmm.
1:42:58
Helen Picha: So you have to let them off.
1:43:00
Rupert Isaacson: And you need to be looking out for that, yes.
1:43:02
Helen Picha: You need- Yeah, you need to look, you need to look your horse
1:43:04
over from ear to tail every day.
1:43:06
Yeah.
1:43:06
Walking enough to feel sound or not.
1:43:08
Tacking them up, I always tell the lads, run your hand under the girth.
1:43:11
Like, you think these are only small things, but this,
1:43:13
this is of years of learning.
1:43:15
Yeah.
1:43:15
Small thing, run your hand under the girth, that there's
1:43:17
no sores, they're not sore.
1:43:18
Yeah.
1:43:18
They can't be sore anywhere when you're dealing with children with special needs.
1:43:21
Yeah.
1:43:21
The horse must be clean, sound, happy, and then ready to work for the day, like,
1:43:25
and nothing sore or nothing wrong with them, or not- So- â¦ too tired either
1:43:29
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: speaking of happiness, and speaking of joy as
1:43:34
we, we're approaching the two-hour mark obviously I'm gonna ask you to,
1:43:39
and we'll have it in the show notes, too, how can people contact you?
1:43:42
How can people contact Liskin?
1:43:43
But before we do that, you mentioned something about music,
1:43:48
and music shows, and singing.
1:43:50
Mm-hmm.
1:43:51
So I think you know what's, I'm gonna ask you to do.
1:43:53
Helen Picha: Oh, my God.
1:43:53
You're not gonna ask me to sing, are you?
1:43:55
Rupert Isaacson: I'm totally gonna ask you to sing.
1:43:57
Oh,
1:43:57
Helen Picha: my
1:43:57
Rupert Isaacson: G- I am so gonna ask you to sing, and here's
1:43:59
why p- ladies and gentlemen.
1:44:01
Helen is a really good singer.
1:44:03
Helen Picha: I'm not that good, though, Rupert.
1:44:04
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, you are so good.
1:44:06
I
1:44:06
Helen Picha: have to do literally four months of practice
1:44:08
before we even do the concert.
1:44:10
I'm practicing every night-
1:44:11
Rupert Isaacson: I have heard you- â¦ all the practice â¦ I have heard you
1:44:13
burst into song- â¦ spontaneously many times with children and horses,
1:44:19
and get up there on stage and do it.
1:44:21
And I think the point, the reason I'm asking, it's like David Doyle
1:44:24
when he pulls out his harmonica.
1:44:26
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:44:26
Rupert Isaacson: Is it, it brings people back down to what's actually important.
1:44:30
Now, I know that you know a particular song by Christy Moore.
1:44:35
Yeah â¦ do you- Ride
1:44:36
Helen Picha: On.
1:44:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:44:37
And I've heard you sing that song and bring-
1:44:40
Helen Picha: I don't think I've sang it since.
1:44:42
I'm trying to think of the words of it.
1:44:44
Okay.
1:44:44
Rupert Isaacson: Let's, I'm gonna pull the words up on my phone here
1:44:49
and, Maybe we can sing it together.
1:44:52
All right.
1:44:53
But I don't claim to be the type of, the, the singer that you are.
1:44:56
Okay.
1:44:56
So Ride On, Christy Moore.
1:44:59
I haven't heard that one.
1:45:01
Yeah, I know youâ¦
1:45:01
But she's gonna kill me in six- You're really putting me on the spot
1:45:04
Helen Picha: here
1:45:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, I totally am.
1:45:05
You, but you knew I was gonna do that, right?
1:45:06
Helen Picha: No, I
1:45:07
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't.
1:45:09
Okay.
1:45:10
The lyrics.
1:45:11
Okay.
1:45:13
True, you ride the finest horse that I've ever seen.
1:45:16
Standing 16, one or two, with aisles, eyes wild and green.
1:45:20
And you ride the horse so well, hands light to the touch.
1:45:24
I could never go with you, no matter how I wanted to.
1:45:28
Right on.
1:45:28
Yeah.
1:45:28
Helen Picha: Ride on,
1:45:29
Rupert Isaacson: see you, I could never go with you, no matter how I wanted to.
1:45:32
Okay.
1:45:33
Okay.
1:45:34
Helen Picha: I'll do one but that's enough.
1:45:34
Okay.
1:45:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:45:35
We'll do, we'll just do one verse and one chorus, all right?
1:45:38
Helen Picha: Okay.
1:45:38
Rupert Isaacson: Shall I count you in?
1:45:40
Helen Picha: Okay, count me in.
1:45:41
Rupert Isaacson: One, two, three, four.
1:45:45
Helen Picha: True, you ride the finest horse I've ever seen.
1:45:53
Standing 16, one or two, with eyes wild and green.
1:46:01
You ride the horse so well, hands light to the touch.
1:46:09
I could never go with you, no matter how I wanted to
1:46:19
Right on.
1:46:22
Rupert Isaacson: See you.
1:46:25
Helen Picha: I
1:46:26
Rupert Isaacson: could never go with you no
1:46:28
Helen Picha: matter
1:46:28
Rupert Isaacson: how I wanted to
1:46:33
One more.
1:46:34
Ride on
1:46:39
See you.
1:46:44
See you.
1:46:44
I could never go with you.
1:46:45
I could never go with
1:46:45
Helen Picha: you.
1:46:46
No matter how I wanted to.
1:46:48
No matter how I want to.
1:46:48
Helen.
1:46:49
Rupert Isaacson: Is
1:46:51
Helen Picha: that okay?
1:46:51
Rupert Isaacson: Beautiful.
1:46:55
Helen Picha: Gosh.
1:46:56
Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
1:46:57
But it's just that kind of creativity, that kind of creative spark that I think
1:47:04
allows you to bring so much joy to so many through that work at Liskinard.
1:47:10
And I'm so glad you're there doing it.
1:47:12
Thank you.
1:47:12
And I encourage everybody who's listening or watching, get on a plane
1:47:18
to Ireland, go down to Limerick.
1:47:22
Mm-hmm.
1:47:22
Check out Liskinard Farm and the work there.
1:47:26
It's the absolute cutting edge, whether it's inclusion, whether it's the
1:47:30
horsemanship, whether it's the use of nature, whether it's the movement method,
1:47:36
aspects away from the horse, whether it's how they engage with the families and
1:47:41
manage to get so many families served.
1:47:44
It, it's breathtaking work.
1:47:47
It is, yeah â¦ as breathtaking as the beauty of
1:47:49
Helen Picha: your- I, I must say, I, I'm honored to be working there.
1:47:53
Like as you said, it's, it's not about the job or the wages around.
1:47:56
Mm-hmm.
1:47:57
You have to love it with absolute passion, and I can clearly say I
1:48:02
love my work in Liskinard every day.
1:48:04
Mm-hmm.
1:48:04
I love going in.
1:48:05
I love looking after the animals.
1:48:06
Mm-hmm.
1:48:07
I love meeting the families coming in, and new families when they email or message,
1:48:11
and encouraging them to come in and see the difference we can make to their lives.
1:48:16
Yeah.
1:48:16
But I also know there, there's still new stuff that we can
1:48:19
learn to make it even better.
1:48:21
You know, I'm there, I took over from David two years ago.
1:48:25
I was mentored underneath him for 11 years before that happened.
1:48:29
Mm-hmm.
1:48:30
So, like, this is a process that takes time, and I am hopefully now the next
1:48:34
person that will take over from me, please God, will have the same passion
1:48:38
that- Mm â¦ David had and I have had, and will continue it on for years
1:48:42
and years to come, and it will keep developing and growing, and hopefully
1:48:46
all other places, like in Turk and, and the place in Charville, will keep
1:48:50
developing and growing, and having loads of places for families with
1:48:54
children with autism to go all the time.
1:48:56
Mm-hmm.
1:48:57
That's what we're trying to achieve, that, you know, on
1:48:59
Sunday they have somewhere to go.
1:49:00
Mm-hmm.
1:49:01
And that's, that's what you need to have that love and passion in your heart to
1:49:05
help these families, and that's what it's all about, and that's what you
1:49:09
need to have to work in this industry.
1:49:12
Rupert Isaacson: Couldn't agree more.
1:49:14
All right, my friend, how do people get in touch?
1:49:16
What's the website?
1:49:17
What's the email?
1:49:18
Helen Picha: So, my email is H-P, capital H, capital P, I-C-H-A @sjf.ie,
1:49:27
and we also have the horsepie@sjf.ie.
1:49:30
There are two websites And my number is 086-20-61-626.
1:49:36
Anyone wants to ring me, I'm available at all times to take
1:49:39
calls from anyone, families.
1:49:41
And if anyone has suggestions of any new thing that we don't have,
1:49:44
we, we love to hear and how we can even grow better and do more stuff.
1:49:49
There has to be more stuff even out there that we haven't done.
1:49:53
And the same with you, Rupert, you're always learning.
1:49:54
I want to learn more always, how we can- Yeah
1:49:57
give more and help more families than we are doing already, and bring in new stuff.
1:50:02
There's always new stuff that we can learn to help more.
1:50:08
Rupert Isaacson: Helen, it's been such an honor and so much fun
1:50:10
to connect with you like this.
1:50:12
And because always when I connect with you, you're so busy getting the job done.
1:50:16
I know.
1:50:16
Well,
1:50:18
Helen Picha: I'm, I'm on holiday mode now, Rupert.
1:50:19
I'm flying over to Tenerife tomorrow morning.
1:50:21
Wonderful.
1:50:22
So my, my oldest son lives out there, so I'm on a well-earned
1:50:25
holiday break at this moment.
1:50:26
Well, well
1:50:26
Rupert Isaacson: deserved.
1:50:27
Helen Picha: So I'm looking forward to going now, and looking forward
1:50:30
to meeting you in September.
1:50:31
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:50:31
Helen Picha: You're coming over to us again, and we've some- I am
1:50:34
few more people for you to train up in the Horse Boy Method.
1:50:37
And yeah.
1:50:37
I'll be there.
1:50:38
Look forward to catching up in September.
1:50:40
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:50:40
Helen Picha: And you'll see then.
1:50:41
Rupert Isaacson: Until then, my friend.
1:50:42
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:50:42
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's been wonderful.
1:50:43
Fly well, rest well.
1:50:45
I will.
1:50:45
I won't, like David, give you homework to do.
1:50:48
Helen Picha: While I'm on holiday.
1:50:48
I'll be still worrying, wondering- Good
1:50:51
how they're getting on in Kentork on the 11th, but I'm sure they,
1:50:55
they'll all do it fine anyway, and hopefully it'll go off well.
1:50:57
It's a huge- Yeah â¦ huge thing for us now the Turning of the Sod
1:51:00
on the 11th of August, and there's a lot of people going to that.
1:51:04
So yeah, it's great.
1:51:05
Rupert Isaacson: We need to celebrate it.
1:51:06
All right.
1:51:07
Maybe, maybe I'll be able to get David on the show to talk about it.
1:51:10
You never know.
1:51:11
Helen Picha: Yeah.
1:51:11
Rupert Isaacson: The day I get David Doyle on this podcast, 'cause he won't
1:51:15
talk is, well, it'll be a miracle, but I'm gonna keep working on it.
1:51:20
All right, my friend.
1:51:21
All right.
1:51:21
Okay.
1:51:22
Thank you
1:51:22
Helen Picha: very much, Rupert, and thank you
1:51:23
Rupert Isaacson: for having me.
1:51:23
Thank you.
1:51:24
See you soon.
1:51:24
Okay.
1:51:25
Okay,
1:51:25
Helen Picha: see
1:51:25
Rupert Isaacson: you.
1:51:25
Bye-bye.
1:51:26
Bye-bye.
1:51:26
I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
1:51:30
If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.
1:51:35
It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of
1:51:39
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.
1:51:41
And if you're interested in more conversations, you might want to check
1:51:44
out I'll live free ride free podcast.
1:51:47
And if you'd like to support the podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.
1:51:52
com and click on the Patreon link.
1:51:55
If you're a professional in the equine assisted field or considering a career
1:51:59
in the equine assisted field, you might want to check out our three
1:52:03
certification programs, horseboy method, movement method, and taquin.
1:52:08
Equine integration.
1:52:10
You can find all of those over on new Trails learning.com.
1:52:15
And finally, if you want to check out our cool rock and roll themed
1:52:19
merch back on rupert isaacson.com,
1:52:22
please click on Shop.
1:52:23
You'll find all kinds of fun goodies there.
1:52:25
And if you're looking for a way to spend time until the next podcast, you might
1:52:30
want to consider reading the books that kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the
1:52:35
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.
1:52:38
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.
1:52:39
world.
1:52:40
Join us for the adventure.