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Hell and Gone Murder Line: The Dermonds · Hell and Gone: Murder Line

• 0:46
  Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Gone Murder Line actively investigates cold
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness, invite
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward, and present evidence that could potentially
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone is
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: On Tuesday, May 6, 2014, neighbors of 88-year-old Russell Dermond
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: and his 87-year-old wife Shirley drove down the manicured streets
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: of Great Waters. an upscale, highly secure gated community in
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: the town of Eatonton on Lake Oconee in central Georgia.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Russell had been a successful executive, and after a lifetime
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: of working hard, he and Shirley had retired to the
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: area 20 years earlier. Russell and Shirley lived at the
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: end of Carolyn Drive, on a cul-de-sac overlooking a peninsula.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: The neighbors were checking on Russell and Shirley because three
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: days earlier, the couple had been expected at a Kentucky
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Derby party. but they never showed up. The Dermons were retired,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: socially active, and spent most of their free time playing
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: golf and bridge. They weren't the type of people to
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: just disappear. But by Tuesday, with no one able to
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: reach them, their friends were growing deeply concerned. The neighbors,
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: a couple, walked up to the house to take a
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: look around. According to the Macon Telegraph, they noticed that
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: some newspapers were piled up in the driveway. At some point,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: they stepped into the garage. That's where they found Russell's
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: dead body, sandwiched between a Lexus SUV and a Lincoln
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Town Car, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. The neighbors called
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: 911 at 9.56 a.m. Shirley was nowhere to be seen.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: But Russell's body wasn't the only horrific thing their friends discovered.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Russell had been decapitated, and his severed head was gone.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I'm Katherine Townsend. Over the past eight years of making
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned that
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: there is no such thing as a small town where
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: murder never happens. I've received hundreds of messages from people
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: all around the country asking for help with an unsolved
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities. If
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: you have a case you'd like me and my team
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: to look into, you can reach out to us at
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: our Hell and Gone murder line. at 678-744-6145. That's 678-744-6145.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: Or you can send us a message on Instagram at hellandgonepod.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: This is Hell and Gone Murder Lines. This was a
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: shockingly brutal crime for a peaceful lakeside community. The first
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: homicide reported there in eight years. Putnam County Sheriff Howard
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Sills led the investigation. He was sworn in in 1996,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: and by the way, Ann is still leading it to
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: this day. In May of 2014, Sheriff Sills was facing
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: a grisly murder scene and a missing wife. Shirley's phone, wallet,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: and car keys were still at the scene. Russell and
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Shirley had been together forever. They met and started dating
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: when she was around 13 and he was 12. They
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: were married for over 60 years. Russell was a World
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: War II Navy veteran from Hackensack, New Jersey, who went
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: into business after the war. He worked as an executive
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: for a clock company, but ended up owning several successful
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: fast food franchises, including Wendy's and Hardee's restaurants. Shirley also
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: grew up in New Jersey, but eventually the couple retired
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: and moved south to the affluent development at Lake Oconee,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: roughly 70 miles southeast of Atlanta. They had been living
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: in the 3,255 square foot home on the lake for
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: almost 20 years. and they had been good neighbors and
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: were well-liked by everyone. Sheriff Sills has spoken to the
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: press several times since May of 2014. He said police
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: found zero evidence of anyone who would have had a
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: reason to harm either Russell or Shirley. The Dermons had
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: four children. Their eldest son, Mark, had died in 2000.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: In 2014, they had two sons who lived in Jacksonville, Florida,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: and a daughter based in Asheville, North Carolina. So Shirley
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: and Russell had picked that neighborhood in Georgia because it
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: was in the middle of where their kids lived. There
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: were all kinds of rumors about who could have done this,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: and it made national headlines, mainly because of the brutal
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: method of murder. Local whispers mentioned everyone from the mob
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: to a cult, but police said there was no indication
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: that either organized crime or some kind of organized religious
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: group had any part in what happened to Russell and Shirley.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Russell was an avid golfer and took daily walks. The
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: couple were members of the local country club. Shirley was
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: also a member of the Bridge Club in Eatonton, where
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: she was active. Great Waters is a planned development built
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: entirely around golf and the lake. It's marketed as an
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: exclusive domain with a 24-hour guard station. It's the kind
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: of place that's designed to be difficult to access, with
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: initial membership fees ranging from around $ 45, 000 to $ 135, 000. It
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: is not the kind of place where strangers wander around unnoticed.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: The Dermons' routines were pretty predictable. Shirley attended a bridge
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: game on Thursday, May 1st. Russell was seen around the
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: same time at a local Publix grocery store, and there
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: were reports placing him near the golf course. Police later
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: estimated that Russell had been dead for days. So what
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: happened and when? Investigators eventually found activity on the Dermons'
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: home computer on Friday afternoon, May 2nd. Now, someone else
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: could have been inside their home using their machines, But
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: from what has been released publicly about the investigation, it
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: seems as though police believed that they were at home
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: and that they were the ones using their computer. So
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: everything seemed pretty normal that weekend. Until Saturday, when they
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: missed the derby party, which leaves a somewhat narrow window
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: of time between Friday afternoon and Saturday, when the killer struck.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: One of the biggest pieces of evidence that law enforcement
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: had was obviously Russell's headless body. Russell's body was found
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: in the garage, positioned behind the vehicles. The decapitation was
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: so clean and so extreme that investigators initially thought it
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: was the cause of death, but the autopsy revealed something different.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: Investigators found gunshot residue on Russell's collar, and Sheriff Sills
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: has said he believes that Russell was shot in the
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: head before he was decapitated. So removing the head was
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: not how Russell was killed. It was done for a
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: completely separate reason. perhaps to send a macabre message, or
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: perhaps to obscure the forensics so investigators couldn't retrieve the
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: bullet for ballistics testing. Which led me to wonder, how
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: do death investigators figure out that someone was shot in
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: the head if they don't have the head? And how
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: do you prove it was a gunshot wound? Pathologists had
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: to look closely at Russell's cervical vertebra, the neck bones.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: If a person is decapitated after death, the bone cuts
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: show no signs of hemorrhaging or bleeding. because the heart
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: has stopped pumping. But there can be clues, even if
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: they can't make definitive conclusions about someone being shot. For example,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: experts can look for shattered bone structures at the base
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: of the neck that occurred while the victim was still alive.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: We're still not sure exactly what they found, but it
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: was enough for the sheriff to state publicly at the
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: time that police believed that Russell was shot in the head.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: But the official coroner's report stopped short of listing that
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: as a cause of death. The official report listed the
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: cause of death as cerebral trauma. And there was one
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: more vital piece of physical evidence left behind. A few
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: strands of Shirley's hair were found intertwined in a wound
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: on Russell's hand. Analysts believe that this was a defensive
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: wound and that Russell had been actively trying to fight
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: back or to shield his wife from a violent assault
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: before he was overpowered. Yet despite the savagery, this didn't
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: look like a standard robbery. The house wasn't turned upside down.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: None of their vehicles had been stolen or showed evidence
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: of being rifled through. And most crucially, there were no
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: signs of anyone ransacking the rooms looking for hidden valuables.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: In fact, according to media reports, there was no sign
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: of any valuables being missing at all. They didn't know
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: it at the time, but investigators would spend years combing
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: through the Dermons' finances, without really finding a single anomaly,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: anything that could help explain what happened. But I need
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to back up. We have to go back to those
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: first agonizing days, because then solving Russell's murder was only
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: half the battle. Police desperately needed to find Shirley. They
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: didn't know if she'd been taken alive or if she
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: was being held captive somewhere. Her disappearance injected a frantic
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: urgency into the case. Shirley's face was plastered across electronic
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: billboards and the FBI poured resources into the search. If
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: it was a kidnapping... investigators and her family would have
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: expected the phone to ring. But there was no ransom call,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: and no one knew. Was she dead or alive? Ten
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: days later, on May 16th, everyone got their answer. Two
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: fishermen were out on Lake Oconee, several miles from the
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Derman home, and they spotted something floating in the water.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: It was Shirley's body. Shirley Derman's body had been found
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: in Lake Oconee, five or six miles from the Derman home.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Sills told the local Fox News station that the
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: possibility that a boat was used to transport her body
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: added a new element to the investigation. Shirley was fully
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: closed and there was no evidence of sexual assault. But
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: forensic testing was later able to determine that her death
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: had been incredibly violent. Shirley had been struck repeatedly in
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: the head with what was described in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: or AJC, as a hammer-like object, and eventually she died
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: from blunt force trauma. Her killer had tried to ensure
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: she would never be found. Whoever took her to the
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: lake attached heavy concrete blocks to her body, wrapping a
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: cord around her ankles and binding them to the blocks
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: to weigh her down. But they made a few mistakes.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: like the fact that the blocks that they attached only
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: weighed 60 pounds total. Shirley was 5 feet 2 inches tall,
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: according to her missing persons poster, and weighed 148 pounds.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: So this weight was enough to drag her under initially,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: but as decomposition progressed, the water depth and gases caused
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: her body to rise to the surface anyway. And this
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: discovery changed everything, because the killers seemed to have dealt
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: with the two victims completely differently. Russell was shot and
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: left in his own garage after being decapitated in what
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Putnam County investigators say was a clinical fashion. As reported
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: by the AJC in 2015, Shirley was beaten, taken far away,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: and haphazardly dumped in the depths of the lake. Had
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: someone come into the house to rob them and then
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: things got out of hand? Police didn't think it was
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: that simple. They believed this was a highly coordinated, methodical,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: and complicated attack. And it was only going to get
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: more complicated... For years, the public assumed both murders happened
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: inside the home. But over time, Sheriff Howard Sills became
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: convinced of a different, more chilling sequence of events. Because
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: the evidence did not seem to support that theory. Remember,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Shirley suffered multiple severe blows to the head. An assault
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: of that magnitude produces significant blood, including cast-off and impact
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: staining that stains walls, floors, and ceilings. But the Derman
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: house was cleaned. It did not contain the crime scene
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: you would expect if Shirley had been beaten to death there.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: There was no mess in the home at all. Other
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: than an unmade bed, the house was tiny, and everything
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: was in place. Shirley and Russell reportedly always had a
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: very clean house, though they did not hire outside help
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: to clean. So that single anomaly could have been important.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Sills did several interviews with the AJC and had
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: some memorable quotes in that newspaper. In one interview, he said, quote,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: drug-crazed random killers, whether it's the Manson family or bebop
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: down the street that's done gone crazy on meth, they
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: leave a mess. There's no mess here, end quote. The
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: sheriff told the newspaper that police had sprayed basically the
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: entire house with luminol, the chemical that reacts with blood
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: traces to cause a glow, and nothing lit up, which
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: led the sheriff to believe that the murders had happened
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: somewhere else, that the house was not the primary crime
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: scene for Shirley's murder. Sheriff Sills has said publicly that
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: he believes that Shirley was taken from the home alive. So,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: you have Russell shot and decapitated. Shirley is abducted and
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: driven or boated away. Somewhere else, she is beaten to death,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: weighed down with cinder blocks, and dumped into the dark
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: waters of the lake. And that brings us to the
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: lake itself. Police believe that the killer or killers probably
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: approached the house by boat. the Derman property had direct
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: access to the water and a dock. The lake created
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: a perfect backdoor, a route in and out of the
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: estate that bypassed the neighborhood security gate and all of
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: its cameras entirely. If the killer or killers arrived and
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: left by boat, this could explain why no neighbors saw
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: an unfamiliar vehicle and why no one witnessed an elderly
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: woman being forced into a car or a boat. When
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: a crime this horrific occurs, investigators have to look everywhere
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: for a motive. They have to dig into the past.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: And the Dermons had a deep, painful tragedy in their
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: family history. 14 years before their murders, in the year 2000,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Russell and Shirley's oldest son, Mark Derman, was shot and killed.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: It happened in Atlanta on his 47th birthday during a
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: street-level drug deal involving crack cocaine. Naturally, when the news
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: of Russell's decapitation broke, the media immediately jumped on this connection,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: probably because this seemed more like an ordered cartel hit
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and not the type of crime that happens to a
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: couple in their 80s that have nine grandchildren. Sheriff Howard
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Sills ordered the old homicide files from the Atlanta Police Department,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: the ones related to Mark Dermott's murder. He also reportedly
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: looked at every name, arrest, and line of testimony from
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: that 2000 case. The Atlanta investigation found... Mark Derman's murder
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: to be a localized, spontaneous robbery during a drug purchase
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: gone wrong. The man who pulled the trigger was caught, convicted,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: and sentenced to life in prison, where he remained long
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: after Russell and Shirley were killed. Investigators found absolutely zero
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: financial crossover, zero communication logs, and zero evidence linking the
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: street-level violence of Mark's death to the hyper-calculated execution of
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: his elderly parents over a It was a dead end.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: So if these killings weren't revenge for the past, what
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: were they? Sheriff Sills told the AJC that the Derman
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: investigation had been a, quote, torturous affair. But he did
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: believe that even if straight robbery wasn't the reason they
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: were killed, that finances were part of the motive. Sheriff
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Sills has publicly stated his main theory. He suspects the
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Dermans were targeted by two or more individuals involved driven
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: entirely by financial extortion. The killers likely believed that a
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: retired franchise executive living in a lake house kept a
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: vast fortune hidden inside the residence. So when the killer
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: or killers arrived there, probably in the dead of night,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: they may have been expecting high-end valuables like hidden wall
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: safes or offshore bank codes. But Russell and Shirley didn't
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: keep gold bars under the floorboards. When the thieves realized
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: they weren't going to get the massive payday they envisioned,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: the situation turned lethal. The execution and decapitation may have
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: been a brutal tactic to force compliance that went too far.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Or maybe something went wrong and they realized they had
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: to dispose of witnesses. Which brings me to another question
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: that doesn't seem to be answered in any of the
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: sheriff's public quotes. What were Russell and Shirley wearing at
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: the time they were found? Were they in street clothes
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: or pajamas? Remember that it was very unlike them to
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: have any kind of mess in the house. And there
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: was just one bed, their bed, unmade when investigators got there.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: So were they just getting up in the morning or
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: were they forced out of bed in the middle of
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: the night? And if so, did their killers intend to
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: take Russell or both of them somewhere else? Maybe to
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: force them to an ATM. And then something went wrong
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: in that garage. That's just one of the scenarios that
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: I've considered, but we just don't know enough about the
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: evidence at the scene to make a definite determination on
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: what happened that night. The FBI Atlanta field office also
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: tried to track down data from local cell towers, including
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: reportedly looking back at the raw digital signatures captured during
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: that tight window between Friday afternoon and Saturday morning on
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: the first weekend of May 2014. By filtering out the
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: digital footprints of the local community, law enforcement was searching
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: for any transient cell phones that suddenly popped up near
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: the unmonitored waters in the larger Reynolds Plantation area and
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: then vanished right as the crime was completed. So far, though,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: the route the killer or killers took has been undetermined,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: at least from what's been stated publicly. Sheriff Sills has
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: repeated over the years that he's thought about that route
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: a lot. The Dermond house had direct access to the lake.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: This created a route out of the property that could
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: bypass the gate leading into the neighborhood. The couple's son, Keith,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: told the AJC in 2014 that he believed the location
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: of the crime provided a big clue. He said that
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: he believes his parents were targeted because of the home's location,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: at the end of a cul-de-sac, without neighbors nearby. And
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: he said something else in that interview. He said, that
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: his parents did not have a next-door neighbor at the
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: time of their murders. If Shirley was removed by boat,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: that could explain why no one remembered seeing an elderly
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: woman being forced into an unfamiliar car or other vehicle.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: It could also explain why her body ended up miles
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: away in the lake. But there has never been a
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: confirmed suspect boat. No witness came forward and identified one
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: vessel as the boat used in the murders. There is
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: no known video evidence showing Shirley being transported. And the
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: lake itself is big, nearly 20,000 acres, with almost 350
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: miles of shoreline. It's busy and it's used constantly, not
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: just by residents, but by fishermen and visitors from all over.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: If the killer or killers drove into the Great Waters...
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Investigators now had to sort through everyone who belonged there
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: at that time, including everyone who was visiting, everyone working there,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: and a lot of people who may have had legitimate access.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: The fact that this was a gated community, in my opinion,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: made the case sound simpler than it was because it
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: actually produced a huge pool of people to eliminate. So
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: police wanted to know who actually had access. And investigators
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: looked closely at anyone with a reason to be around
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: the Dermons or inside the neighborhood. This included neighbors, workers,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: maintenance people, handymen, and people connected to the local golf community.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Police wondered, was it someone from outside Russell and Shirley's
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: neighborhood or inside the neighborhood who targeted them? Whoever killed
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: them appeared to know their routine. The killer came to them.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Russell was attacked inside his own home, and Shirley was
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: taken from there. That raises the possibility that whoever did
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: it knew where they lived and had some confidence about
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: approaching the property. But investigators never publicly established whether the
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Dermans actually knew their killer. They did reportedly go through
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Russell and Shirley's bank accounts, financial records, wills, and everything
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: else that left a financial trail. But they couldn't find
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: any evidence of them having conflict with anyone and no
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: obvious financial reason why anyone would want them dead. Russell
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: was successful, but so were a lot of people living
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: in that neighborhood. There were a lot of retirees living comfortably,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: and Russell and Shirley were not flashy. Again, we go
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: back to why was their house targeted in particular? Yes,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: they were at the end of the cul-de-sac, but the
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: sheriff pointed out that if somebody entered the community looking
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: for an easy, rich target, there were a lot of
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: houses to choose from. And if they were chosen at
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: random just because their house was more remote with no
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: physically close neighbors at the time, why did the killer
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: go through so much effort to dispose of Shirley's body
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: and to decapitate Russell? That behavior does seem to suggest
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: that the offender was trying to accomplish something, something beyond
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: immediate financial gain. We've already talked about the Derman son, Mark.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: What about the rest of Russell and Shirley's extended family?
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Investigators did take a hard look at the three surviving
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: children as well. But according to available media reports, the
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Dermen children all drove to the area immediately and talked
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: to police. They took polygraphs, which they passed, and they
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: cooperated fully with the investigation. It's important to note, none
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: of them have ever been identified as suspects. And from
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: what Sheriff Sills has said publicly, it appeared as though
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: moving Shirley's body would have made the road to inheritance longer,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: not shorter. In an interview quoted in an Unsolved Mysteries transcript,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Sills specifically said, that if Shirley's body had not
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: been found, it would have been a long time before
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the estate was settled. I've read the will. The probate
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: records are online. Shirley was named as the primary executor
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: of Russell's estate and the sole beneficiary, as long as
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: she survived him by at least 30 days. But when
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Russell's body was found, Shirley was still missing. And under
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Georgia law at the time, a missing person was not
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: automatically presumed dead right away. After four years of continuous absence,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: the law created a presumption that the person had died.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: But after 12 months, a court could find that the
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: missing person was dead based on a preponderance of the evidence.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: And in cases where someone has been exposed to a
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: specific peril or tragedy likely to cause death, a court
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: could make that finding earlier if there was clear and
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: convincing evidence. Georgia law also contained specific rules governing what
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: happened when a missing person stood to inherit from someone
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: who died while they were missing. If Shirley's body had
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: never been found, settling the estates would have involved Georgia-specific
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: probate rules for missing people, including rules governing whether a
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: missing person could inherit from someone who died while they
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: were missing. So if Shirley's body had never been found,
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: that would not have necessarily meant that the children had
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to wait one to four years before anything could happen
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: with the estate. But it does support the point Sheriff
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: Sills himself has made publicly. If someone in the family
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: had killed Russell and Shirley hoping to get a payout quickly,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Making Shirley disappear would have been a very strange way
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: to try to accomplish that. Once Shirley's body was found,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: investigators and the probate court knew that both Russell and
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Shirley were dead, and the children were able to distribute
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: the estate according to their parents' wishes. Police were trying
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: to figure out the motive. If it wasn't simple robbery,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: and it wasn't someone very close to the family with
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: something to inherit, and there was another financial motive, what
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: was it? For a relatively small sheriff's office, the Derman
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: murders became a huge case almost immediately. The FBI assisted,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: along with other Georgia agencies. And by early June of 2014,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Sills said that his investigators had been working almost
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: exclusively on the Derman case for nearly a month. Sheriff
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: Sills did multiple media interviews about this case. He seemed
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: to care deeply about it. He's been pretty outspoken about
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: some of his theories over the years to journalists. he
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: has publicly stated that contrary to a lot of early rumors,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: that he did not believe that Shirley and Russell were
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: killed as part of a professional hit. In 2015, Sheriff
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Sills and a profiler from the FBI spoke to the AJC.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: In an article dated May 9, 2015, Sheriff Sills described
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Shirley's injuries as, quote, two, maybe three blows to the
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: head with a blunt force object, end quote. Sheriff Sills
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: said professionals would have shot Russell in the head and left,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: and also said that in addition to his belief that
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: the killer had familiarity with the lake, that he also
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: believed they probably traveled across the water at night, in
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: the dark. The former FBI profiler told the AJC that
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: he believed two or maybe even three killers could have
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: been involved, and it was reported at the time that
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Sills shared that conviction. Decapitations, by the way, are
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: very rare. And they happen for a variety of reasons.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Some of them are personal. Some of them are meant
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: to send a message. Normally, you connect them to things
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: like cartel purges or intimidation tactics. Not two grandparents who
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: play bridge and golf. There's another interesting question that we
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: tried to answer in the 2004 interview where he mentioned
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: suspecting that his parents were targeted because of their home's location.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Keith Derman, Shirley and Russell's son, also told the AJC
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: that his parents were very security conscious and that they
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: had an alarm system. So why didn't it trigger that night?
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: There were reports in local papers that there had been
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: a big storm a few weeks before Russell and Shirley
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: were killed and that a lot of the alarm systems
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: had been knocked out around the area. So their alarm
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: systems might not have been working that night. So were
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: they working? And if not, who would have known at
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: the time that they weren't? Also, we know that the
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: sheriff had said Shirley may have been killed elsewhere due
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: to the lack of blood found in the home. But
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: are police even sure that Russell was killed in the garage?
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: Because the sheriff also said in the same interview that
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: there was no spatter or bullet hole in the wall.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: So if Russell was killed there, could it be possible
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: that he was killed elsewhere and then moved back there?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: If so, why don't the forensics tell us for sure?
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: The details of the case make us question everything we
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: think we know and seem to get stranger, not more
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: clear over time. In 2015, Sheriff Sills acknowledged that law
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: enforcement had talked to someone twice, someone who they did
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: not feel was truthful in answering some of their questions.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: We don't know any details on who it was, and
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Sills has said that person was not a suspect.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: He repeated his belief that there was more than one
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: killer and that they were driven by some sort of
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: personal animus against the Dermons, either on their part or
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: on behalf of someone else. The Derman home was sold
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: in 2015 for $ 760, 000. In May of 2024, FBI Special
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Agent Andy Smith and the Putnam County Sheriff's Office confirmed
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: that additional DNA had been found in connection with the murders.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: One of those items was a piece of clothing belonging
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: to Russell, the shirt he had been wearing when his
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: body was found. Sheriff Sills sent several pieces of evidence
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: from the Derman case to a private forensic laboratory for
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: additional testing, and investigators got a result. The test concluded
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: that there was DNA found on Russell's shirt that did
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: not belong to him. Sheriff Sills described the DNA as
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: touch DNA, the kind of microscopic biological material that can
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: be left behind when someone touches an object or another person.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: The sheriff said at the time that it was the
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: best evidence investigators had developed in 10 years. But there
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: was an important limitation because the sample was very small
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: and further testing determined that there was not enough DNA
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: to develop the fuller profile that investigators would need to
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: search it through CODIS, the FBI's national DNA database. So
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: investigators had DNA from somebody other than Russell. And Sheriff
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Sills believed that it could potentially have come from his killer.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: But they still didn't know whose DNA it was. And then,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: in 2026, investigators tested another item. Sheriff Sills told the
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: AJC that he had found an unidentified article on a
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: countertop in the Dermans' kitchen and submitted it for DNA testing.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: That item also contained DNA from someone other than Russell
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: or Shirley. But once again, the sample did not contain
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: enough markers to be entered into CODIS. At least one
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: of the unidentified DNA samples has been determined to have
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: come from a male, but investigators have not publicly identified
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: that person. So, 12 years after the murders, police have
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: something they did not have at the beginning of the investigation.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Biological evidence from at least one unidentified person. Sheriff Sills
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: has said that even though the profiles are not strong
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: enough to identify someone through CODIS, they could still potentially
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: be compared directly against a suspect if investigators ever develop one.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: So far, they have not. The most visually shocking fact
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: in the case is also one of the hardest to interpret.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Why take Russell's head? The practical answer is that the
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: head probably contained evidence, the bullet that he had been
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: shot with. But there is no proof that evidence destruction
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: was the only reason. Decapitation after death is a pretty
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: unusual act. It requires time and effort and risk. Also,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: why would the killer take the time to get rid
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: of Shirley's body and remove it and cut off Russell's
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: head and take it away as well, but not take
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: the rest of the body with them? If Russell was
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: already dead or dying from the gunshot... Why would the
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: killer stay long enough to remove his head and take
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: it with them? At this point, I was questioning everything
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: that I thought I knew about this case, including are
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: we even sure this was a gunshot? Early reporting and
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: quotes by the sheriff seemed to lean in that direction.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: But in 2026, the AJC reported that being shot in
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: the head was one possibility and that Russell, quote, could
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: have suffered a fate similar to his wife's or among
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: the possibilities been shot in the head, end quote. The
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: other big question in this case is, where was Shirley's
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: crime scene? Where was she physically killed? If Sheriff Sales
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: is right that she was not beaten to death in
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: the home, then it probably is somewhere between Great Waters
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and the point where her body entered Lake Oconee. That
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: is the second crime scene. It could be a car
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: or a boat or another house somewhere secluded near the lake.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: That missing scene could contain the explanation for the whole case.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Law enforcement has shared some suspicions, but they have never
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: publicly established whether one person or multiple people committed the murders.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: It is possible that there was only one killer, but
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: that would require that person to completely control the scene,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: shoot Russell, remove his head, kill Shirley, transport her, and
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: dispose of her body. That is a lot of activity.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: The crime also contained a weird mix of planning, Coming
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: to the scene by boat, leaving no blood behind, somehow
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: dismantling the security system or at least knowing it was
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: an operative, and amateur stuff like leaving a decapitated body
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: in the garage and failing to weigh Shirley down properly.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: Twelve years later, this case is still active. The FBI
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: continues to publicize it. There is a reward of up
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: to $ 25, 000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: of whoever killed Russell and Shirley. 30 years into his
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: career as sheriff, Sheriff Sills has continued to work the
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: case personally. He continues to send in new items for
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: forensic testing as DNA technology advances. By now, the killer
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: is 12 years older, so someone may remember an unexplained
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: trip to the lake or a boat taken out at
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: an unusual time, a gun that vanished, or a person
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: who suddenly had a very weird story about where they
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: were during the first weekend of May 2014. Someone knows
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: why Russell and Shirley were chosen, where Russell's head went,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: and where Shirley was killed. And somewhere in the evidence
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: already collected may be the biological trace that finally puts
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: a name to that person. Anyone with any information can
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: contact the FBI's Atlanta field office at 770-216-3000 or the
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: Putnam County Sheriff's Office at 706-485-8557. So far, the water
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: has kept its secrets. To this day, no suspect boat
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: has ever been identified. No witnesses have come forward. Investigators
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: did drag the lake. They found a lawn chair and
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: a Christmas tree, but still no sign of Russell's missing head.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: The sheriff has also made some more slightly cryptic statements
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: over the years, saying that he believes there may be
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: people out there who may know what the killer or
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: killers have done, but believe that they have reformed somehow.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Sheriff Sills told the AJC, that anyone who believes that
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: the killer could be their friend should beware. Michael and
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Shirley were caught totally off guard, and they could be too.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: The killer could be smiling at them one minute and
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: cut their heads off the next. I'm Katherine Townsend. This
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: is Hell and Gone Murder Line. Hell and Gone Murder
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Line is a production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: It's written and narrated by me, Katherine Townsend. Today's episode
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: was produced by Jade Krizlock. Special thanks to Amy Tubbs
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: for her research assistance and James Wheaton for legal review.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Jesse Neiswanger mixed and scored this episode. Our theme song
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: is by Ben Salit. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: and L.C. Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone Ad-Free by subscribing
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: If you're interested in seeing documents and materials from the case...
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: You can follow the show on Instagram at HelenGonePod and
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: my Patreon at Katherine Townsend Investigates. If you have a
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: case you'd like me and my team to look into,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Murder Line at 678-744-6145. That's 678-744-6145.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: School of Humans.