Latest / The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+ / The Courage to Start Again After 50 | A Conversation Every Gay Man Needs

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The Courage to Start Again After 50 | A Conversation Every Gay Man Needs · The Wisdom Trust Podcast for Gay Men 50+

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wisdom Trust.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Lord Crawford.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is for gay man over 50 who says there's more to this stage of life than we've been taught.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: More connection, meaning, honesty, and possibility.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode is a conversation with a thoughtful gay man who's navigating the deeper questions that often emerge in the second half of life.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Aging, identity, purpose, belonging, reinvention, community, love, and living consciously.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: These are not conversations about decline, they are conversations about becoming.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you're here.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome back to another episode, Issue podcast of the Wisdom Trust.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: We're here today with Davidson Coy.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: And before I introduce Davidson, I'd like to just remind us of our conversations here aren't about subject matter experts.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're not celebrities.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: We are gay men over 50, and we're sharing our journeys, we're sharing our stories so that we can help other men in their journeys learn something, experience something, and maybe connect and feel a sense of community with the fellows that we're having these conversations with.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let me tell you a little bit about Davidson.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Davidson is a 50-year-old, so he's a young guy in our community, married, happily married, and he's starting to think about his future in retirement and is sensing that there's something maybe a little bit missing in his life, but he's not quite sure what that is, but he wants to grab what it is as he figures it out.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you're going to be in the right community to have that discussion, Davidson.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't you tell us a little bit more about who you are?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So give us a little bit about your background.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me, Lawrence.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm originally from growing up in a small islands called Pinan Islands in Malaysia.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, as you probably know, Malaysia is a Muslim country.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And literally, the gay life is very hard for you know for the gay men.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we literally cannot really come out openly to be gay or to be ourselves.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: So of course uh when I graduate from the uh college, I decide to like go to study in London, which is changed my life.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I have my what my first time which is I kind of opened up for me to actually explore the gay life.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that if I stay in Malaysia, I'm probably it's not going to enjoy that much and be myself.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So of course, uh in the times I it's kind of like uh when I graduated was 2008, which is the the economy corrupt over.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I was kind of had cannot get a job.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: I had a lot of time.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in a chat room and with the engineering chat room, and I meet one guy which is my talent boss.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: He was there to help me people, you know, do the uh the engineering assignment.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And we church for a while, and one day he offered me the job.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I'm here by the end of 2020.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And from there, I'm just you know, slowly learnt to be by myself in here, it's kind of quite tough.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have to go through the cultural change.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of stuff had to go through it's time, but I make it so during this time it's kind of like learned, and my boss is almost my my mentor, and um I probably previously mentioned about it when the first our conversation you probably know that you know that because I work from him and almost like my father's and it's kinda like cut in between my job and what I you are in a family job and uh it's kind of very hard sometimes.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So and uh course uh when I come here still have to go through so many immigration issues also because uh I come here as H1B, his H1B visa, and when I start trying to apply the green card and the lawyer, it's kind of like messed up all my paperwork, so I have to go through another lawyer and not really doing very well, also, and um until I kind of stuck here like for 10 years, trying to deal with this immigration's paperwork.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Until I met my husband, we get married, and it made things a lot easier.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh good.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So you you were studying in London and then you you connected with a fellow, he offered you a position, you came you went from so it must have been interesting moving from Malaysia to London and that you were studying engineering there, correct?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then and then you got your job and had to relocate to the US.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, after I graduated, I I I went back to Malaysia, uh, worked for at least a year before I got the offer.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: So how does it compare, you know, in retrospect, thinking back, what was it like being in London, you know, big city, and then and then moving to where you are in the US?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: How did that compare?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Was it different for you?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, when in London, you know, when we're young with students, but I don't I did I didn't go to London by myself.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: We had a whole group of uh uh students, so it's the same school, so we kind of classmates, so I will not feel alone.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And the problem is uh we are hanging out together, we speak our own language.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: I never really improved my English, and in that time, my English are so bad.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's why I told in the chat room I was told my boss that you know if I can to improve my English, I will be happy.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: The only delay he said that you can learn the English better, so you have to live in a country that only speaks English.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:40
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's how he offered me the job.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's kind of like me learning French.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I always have this idea of you know, living in Canada, it's considered a bilingual country, although it's really not in many ways.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, you you it's hard to learn another language unless you're right in the thick of it, right?
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so how when you came to the US again, when?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: How long has it been?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know 2000s.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so you've been here a while and you've been working for the same company, and and so this is kind of like a family business.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: This this boss of yours isn't just a boss, he's like a mentor and really a re uh almost like a father figure, is that correct?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, correct.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that that is that making things a little bit complicated for you.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because sometimes, you know.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: If I want like if I want to like quit a job, you know, sometimes it's very stressful for our field because we are in the medical field, we uh design, install, and service, and uh it's also 24-7 standby, so sometimes can we get very stressful.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, and then uh with all uh we our company also is FDA regulate and also ISO certified, and there's a lot of a lot of things on my plates to deal with.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And just I had so many titles, depending upon what he wants, I can put whatever head he wants me to be.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes it's very stressful, you know.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I want to feel like I want to quit a job, and I also consider, you know, I kind of respond to the company, and the company really needs me.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I sometimes think about if I quit, what happened to the company, what happened to the business, you know, and if the and also think about if the I hope the company can survive without me, if what if not, and it's a lot of employee, you know, I will feel about very guilty about all the people that lost the job.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I hope that I'm not that important.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like you're very important.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that that must be a big challenge.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us about what what part of this story that you're in has been the biggest pivot for you, or maybe you're in at right now.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like what, you know, I I'm calling this the fabulous moment, but it's it can be like that aha moment where you start to really think about things differently, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And all you know, I don't know how long you've been ruminating about maybe leaving the the work for sort of finding a new position.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: But what would you say is your big pivot at this stage in your life?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it's like it's still I'm still struggle, choice to like uh figure out how can I approach.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I mentioned to him before about quitting, and it's kind of like we have it's kind of like I feel that our relationships kind of like become distant since the 2003 is I'm still choice to, you know, we are still it's kind of like more talk at work about the business and at the private life, we hardly talk our personal personal life anymore.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's kind of like sometimes kinda like really like I don't want to like lose him completely.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: If I quit the job, it's kind of like it's a struggle and I try to figure it out.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have been with this job so long, and and the job that I have is very specialized.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: If for me to change the job also, it's very hard for me to find a similar job.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: I might have to start all working, and with 50, I kind of like, you know, people might not want to hire me.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: It depends also.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I try to see like what job actually I can fit in.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or I really want to retire, but if I can afford, I will.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: So at this point, I'm being still trying to figure out what is my next approach.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: I will think about a few things, and sometimes I just feel like my job is so stressful, I just want to get a job at Walmart and just be stuck on the shelf by the time I feel it.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I can turn on my brain.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to think about anymore.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to wait, wait, worry about a phone call in the middle of the night or earlier morning, you know, to take care of the uh medical service.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Have you have you got it?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sounds like this is still very much up in the air.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So have you thought about maybe sitting down and mapping out what a game plan would look like, like an exit strategy in terms of, you know, maybe you don't know what that next job is going to be, but at the same time, knowing that a shift or a change has to happen?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I I actually I have discussed with my husband before, and it's kind of very supportive.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: He said he will just, you know, stand by me whenever I decide what I want to do.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Or how originally I was thinking that I might just quit a job, and if I cannot get a job, I can just consider taking a break.
• 12:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: For a while, the taking a break can be can be the the pause that you need to sort of reset, right?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because no doubt after 25 years in a high responsibility, high-level job, you've got a lot of skills, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you probably at this stage aren't really seeing how much there is, and and being able to step out of it could be that that opportunity, especially if you have the support of your partner and there's no financial imperative to sort of take a fresh look at who is David and who is David becoming.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I want you to know that this isn't unique.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a common thing that occurs in the 50s where people may be having been, you know, working in a certain area, a certain job, the same employer for, you know, a couple of decades, like yourself, more than two decades.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then it all of a sudden starts to feel, or maybe it progressively starts to feel a little less than fulfilling, right?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's a sign in midlife that you know there's there's an alignment issue, that there's a disconnect from who we ultimately want to be and and how we're showing up in our daily lives.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it can be, you know, think of it as a bit of a crossroads, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and hard decisions get to be made.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where people can begin to really step into their own.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: The benefit that you have, I would suggest, is you have a supportive partner.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Some people don't have that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing, too, that might be of interest is starting to have the the conversation with your boss.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have have you even broached the topic at all?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like it's kind of very hard to borrow a copy, but in the past I was just sending a very, very long email.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I I I feel like probably there's a way that I can communicate better and then uh take it from there.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: But uh at the end, we just like you know, don't really I don't really follow up, follow up after that, you know.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like another thing is that I know that it probably another issue is that I have is uh I might be lack of self-confidence.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: I know that a lot of people in in my field they think I'm very capable, I am very smart, but I don't think I am.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that I just do my job and because of my experience and I know more.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll tell you, my friend, if you've been in that position for 25 years and you've got a lot of responsibility, you're a smart guy, right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so some of that inner inner gain, that inner working is where we have to focus, right?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and and and figure out our worth because a lot of times we for whatever reason, there's all sorts of reasons.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: We'll we we don't hold ourselves on that same level of of worth as others see us.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I would just suggest, you know, the little that I know from you that you've you've got a lot to offer.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so know that you are, you know, worthy of whatever decision you you decide to make.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at a little bit about, you know, I want the way I like to have these conversations is when there's a pivot and you're kind of in the midst of one, which is very interesting, you know, trying to navigate career and changing who you are in terms of that external identity, right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because so many of us men identify with what we do, you know, when you introduce someone, it's like, oh, hi, I'm Lauren and I'm a I'm a coach and a healer, you know, or we we we identify by our roles, right?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and so the the thing about navigating that can be really challenging because it's like if I if I let go of that identity, well, then who do I get to become?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: But let's think about it in terms of if you were to leave that position, what would that give you freedom from?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you were to sort of say, okay, I'm going by.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: What would that give you freedom from?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: I would think the freedom from stress and responsibility as the because uh in the medical field is a lot of the reliability because uh so that is a big responsibility.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: I always tell myself that if I can start all over against my career, I will not get into medical fields again.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: So so it's like you know, like it's it's very like feel like it's it's maybe it's just also it's me also that everything I do, I will I will think that I have to be responsible for that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: How does that stress play out in your in your body?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, how does how do you how do you handle stress on a day-to-day basis with that job?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, sometimes I just get used to it, I just tune to it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: I will get sometimes I get very stressed past it, but after I get a sleep, the next day I will feel fine.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times I even know that I have very stressful, very crazy days at work, and then we'll really bring back, you know, at home talk to my my husband.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I probably just he will ask me how's my day.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: I will just say it's a shitty day, and we just laugh together.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it's just in the ways that it's kind of to make me feel relaxed because I don't want to bring my like my stress from work back home, and you know, like I might try to be also be happy also, and try to be like, don't want to be like feel sad or you know, like depressed at home, and I'm sure it's going to impact my husband also.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the best way I do is like you know, tries to be like more.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: But how does gamenson though?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: How do you process that?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so you want to put on a happy, friendly face at home with your partner, and yet you've got this huge responsibility with your work and calls in the middle of the night, all of that sort of thing.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: So do you do you have a mechanism to sort of deal with that, or do you just push through?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I just push it through.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes don't want to think about it too much, and then uh say, because uh in China we have the place says that when the the sheep hit the dog, it will straighten up itself.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: So eventually the problems like it's going to times actually will show or will tell that actually will stop or not, and it it's a lot of times that I will say the life is already so tough and so hard, and we'll try to be happy and will make the life easier because regardless we are sad or we are happy, the life still has to move on.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Why we just make ourselves a lot easier and try to be happy?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no happy pill, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like we can't just take a pill and go, I'm happy now.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where the choices start to matter, you know, like how how long, how much longer, you know, can you endure the stress level that this job places you under?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like that, the these are questions to consider, you know.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's say that you know, you make a decision over the next little while and things shift, and maybe you do take that break and and and you have some opportunity to reflect and create a new version of yourself.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's still in the medical field, but maybe you totally do something entirely different, like you use those transferable skills, all those responsibilities you have, you package them differently and create a new version.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you you become a consultant and help people in this field up their game, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: What would that what would that change give you freedom to?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like where where would that take you in terms of you, your partner, your relationship, you know, moving towards the retirement years, all of that stuff.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: What would that look like?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a very tough question.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I know Lily.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I don't even really think about it.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I only think about a little bit is that if I create a job, what is next?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: What I can do.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: I have few things, few things, like I have considered a few things.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, getting a job at Walmart is is part of my thinking too.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of consideration.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Just want to take a break.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I was also told my husband that you know, I sometimes just enjoy doing the massage.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I will just go and get my massage license, my mass license, and I can start from there.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because at least that once they give me the freedoms, I can do my own schedule, and and the idea that probably I don't have to vote that much will maybe will help me a little bit for my stressful life.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, uh to do that, probably I we have to consider our financial adjustments.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, maybe I will not match that same income that I have right now.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: So also start of my consideration that you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: kind of pray also at the end of the day we still will come to the financial regardless what we are doing and and because financial basically create a biggest rule in our life so that it's part it's also like kind of like made me worry and that's kind of maybe it's obstacle for me to move forward to change career.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah well that's the trap right that's the trap that many of us find ourselves in because we've established a certain standard of living and we can't imagine going down a little bit or shifting that it's you know we live in a society it's like more more more more and if it's not more then we we consider ourselves failures or whatever you know but someone as someone who's left you know a well paying job that I had for 25 years because it's a similar story to yours actually I was just kind of like done right and so what I did is I I created a an exit strategy like I knew where I wanted to go in term or when I wanted to go is a better way of saying it.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know what it was going to look like after, but I knew I had skills right and and that that that the universe would would work out it would make it work out.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's the thing like when you have an exit strategy and you start working towards it then things start to align a little bit and and you start to see options you start to see opportunities where they weren't before because you were so narrowly focused.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah I would I would encourage you to you know give that some thought as you're as you're moving forward the massage thing is very interesting and it's such a uh such a different area of what you describe your work to be to to being like tactile and connecting on a human level you know all of that stuff it maybe it's something you start to explore in your free time if you have any and see if they're see if it works, you know take take some lower level kind of training and it and and explore that and then if that's the way you want to go then things will start to move accordingly but what I was going to say around the financial stuff is we can use that as a barrier.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: But then what if we do that we're caged we live a caged life we live a caged life based on dollars and cents.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And when I left that job my income literally was cut in half you know because I I had a pension which a lot of people don't but I did I was blessed with that but I had to learn how to live with half the amount of money and we can do that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't impede our happiness.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah maybe we don't travel as much whatever but we start to find other other means of of gratification you know and now I'm doing this work you know so over a period of years you know coaching came into my life and that so I do think that in our midlife and I'm I'm saying this not just to you but to everyone who's listening who's in that that place of angst around I'm in my midlife I'm in my 50s I'm too I don't have myself set up for a quote unquote retirement which in me personally I don't even believe in that notion.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we can always find something that we're doing and feeling fulfilled by whether it's paid or not.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea of retirement doesn't even need to enter the question because we always want to be showing up and being purposeful, you know, in whatever way, shape or form that is in my view.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know not everyone agrees with that.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: But what is that next thing going to look like and and if it's massage that's that's brilliant.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And but maybe there's something else there too.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I would caution you and folks listening not to get into that cage of the monetary thing because there's always options there's always you know some right sizing like we often use the word downsizing but maybe there's right sizing like maybe we we move into a place that's more aligned with that new level of income and instead of this higher level of income and we just adjust within a matter of days we adjust right because that's how it works.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Our brains don't like change but we can move into change and then adapt quite readily I agree and uh of course uh my husband and I would have always planned you know we want to travel a lot when I retire and of course the travel we just need of financial support and of course uh my financial advisor is planning that for me to retire at 60 I still have 10 years to go so after that I can do what we want friends to do.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I really want to have my dream to come true.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest if I want to go and jump on retirement I probably I can make it in five years like you say that maybe I my income will be you know hard to have like you mentioned before but if I do that I might be not able to make my dream to come true because I have to draw my retirement funds earlier than it should be.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes yeah if I retire earlier I mean that I have to assess my retirement fund and it will affect my my plans for the future you know and I might be not able to travel as well we can't but I really want my dream to come true so sometimes you know we fall to our dream we had to make it happen so we do whatever it takes.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah and that's that's the choice right it's like is if the choice is I'm gonna do this thing called retiring and then I'm gonna travel a lot and then that's that's that whole approach of deferred benefits right like or deferred outcomes in terms of the work that you're doing you're deferring your satisfaction by working in a stressful pressure filled job to get to that certain place where you have the income that you can then start to relax and and and and and and do the traveling and all that.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so that that's a model that some people embrace and stick to and they put in the years they do the work and then they retire you know there the other model would be well maybe those dreams can change maybe you can have new and different dreams.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it isn't just about traveling.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe when you find that next career that lights you up you have no desire to travel to to to retire because you're so enamored of that work like you're so captured by it.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because when we're in that heaviness of work being you know drudgery and and stressful we can't even imagine doing things that that actually feel like they light us up.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: You've got an inkling that it might be massage and it may well be, but it could be something else entirely different too.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we need to it's good to have dreams but when we attach to them you know that they've got to look and be a certain way that that sort of expectation can actually be well the Buddhists would say you know it creates some suffering.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So have the dreams have the expectations but no it's actually the journey to get there is is part of the part of the fun.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if the journey is miserable and we're holding out for that thing over there, well then what kind of quality of life do we have waiting for the future where you know so I think it's it's important and these are all questions that we get to have in in midlife right and you know if we've got kids and responsibilities like that or if we've got a lot of debt you know or other challenges you know one of mine was during COVID I had a yoga studio that I ran and I lived above it.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And with COVID there was no clients so so there was no money.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like bankruptcy you know so that's not something anyone plans for so we learn we learn how to it's like water we learn how to like move right and and we trust the higher whatever God if you're that if I call it the universe you know that that there are bigger forces at play that that are guiding us forward.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that you're a super bright guy and and your boss knows that too right and then and so whatever you end up doing is gonna you know it's ultimately going to be the right choice for you.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Find the wisdom trust on schoolschool.com slash wisdom dash trust slash about website is wisdomtrust50.com find us on substack the wisdom trust dot substack dot com and if you're not watching this on youtube youtube.com slash at the wisdom trust five oh see you on those platforms so tell us a little bit about you right now like as you're as you're navigating this and you know you've got your spouse and and tell us a little bit about that like how are you leveling up your life to sort of meet these these challenges that you're facing well you know at first I wish I can like mentioned before I kind of lost my confidence I wish I can gain my confidence back and remember that the first time that when I get a job offer to come here none of my friends and my family actually support me except my father and I will say well I'm young and you know if I don't come here and try it's my success rate is zero.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: If I come to try even though the success rate is only 1% there's still one percent there.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I take the risk I came here yeah I wish I had the confidence now like I had before I would like to you know to start yeah the new career against but you know probably we are getting older and you say we are more start to think about it more start to concern maybe we are more mature to start considering a lot of stuff when you are young you don't know what future was going to lead you to you young you can afford to lose time and start against but when you get older things can't get harder and harder each day.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: For sure things things change right and then I think the other thing that's really important is the way that we approached it in our 20s or maybe our 30s like I didn't land my ideal job till I was in my 30s.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: It took me a while but at this stage yeah like when when those choices are are in front of us if we use the same sort of framework that we did back in our 20s and 30s like oh I need this job it's how I identify it's it's you know who I am versus what can I do that's going to give me a sense of purpose?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do that's gonna light me up?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: And these are these are reflections that we can all do.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like dreaming a little bit like you did in your 20s like what would it look like to take that job in the US and to move you know like as soon as you decide you want to make a change and a shift you'll start to see things differently.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you open yourself up to those potentials who knows what could happen you know but we're also in a shitty economy.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: So then there's that right like you you you have to weigh all of the things together.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think what what is a balanced approach is to start to dabble into things a little bit here a little bit there.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Staying the course with the job that you have might be the smartest route in terms of your plan, right?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: But then if there is something say you do a weekend massage training course and you're like oh my God I love this and then you start having a few clients here and there and you're like oh my God I really love this.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then you start to see what the remuneration looks like because it's hard work, right?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: Doing that physical stuff, especially in your 50s and beyond, you know, I know it's it's hard work on your body and it's you have to you you can't react like because when you're doing energy work and I know this for doing it you're you deplete a lot.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to be able to have resources within systems and tools within to maintain your own energy.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not just talking like physical energy I'm talking like the super subtle energies.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so much good in that kind of work too because it's tactile you're connecting with other humans you know you're having that that that that beautiful kind of human connection that maybe is is is not part of your current job.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I would encourage you just to start exploring a little bit be creative and don't don't be scared to dream.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is what we we you know we like I said we get locked into what we think it's supposed to look like and then that's also very much a cage because what if it doesn't look like that what if it looks like something way better you know like you know like I don't know what those trips are that you're dreaming about but what if there's something that was way better than a trip you know like I don't know just saying you know like don't be shy to to to dream and and and and we get ourselves really compressed right we get ourselves really tight and especially when we're in a stressful job because like a lot the most of our life is at this stage when we're still working full time is work right so it's really really intense but for the leveling up I I would love for you to to start exploring some of that stuff that you're you're thinking might be an an avenue for you to pursue and then to let us know how it goes.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I need to break the ice you know and I say is that my job actually I have to meet a lot of clients the in like a biomed the nurses the doctor so I probably have the interperson skill and also that for my job I actually well I probably it's not that many engineers actually get the hand dirty and I always use my hand I mean I I always oversee the project I always help do the project and you know even though I'm only like five foot five 115 pound I can move 300 pound stuff wow wow wow it's a way so there you are Davidson you have a ton of resources already I'm gonna invite you after this call to make a list of all of those amazing things you just started to list because once you see that in paper written in front of you it's like that's who I am and then and then this kind of stressful stuff over there of the work and all that stuff that's heavy it's like if you start to focus more over here you are this guy who can communicate who can who connects with people you have this beautiful energy so there's so much there there is a lot I think that's going to shift for you.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem is the like social life stuff you know in them people it's not really what I like that the reasons I thought I would get an engineering world I will just go and hide in a cubicle just do my job I don't want to have anything else you know but I end up with like I do interface with people every day.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well you well it's it can survive for 25 years.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah yeah well I mean you you're you've got an amazing kind of energy and and and I think that whoever gets to meet and interact with you would probably be really appreciative of that that's that's amazing.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about you and your partner that you've been together for a while and how how how has that all been like your your lives together okay well yeah I don't know we could consider it's very lucky I always tell people and they will laugh I met my husband and Bob House and he's in the process of divorce and he told me he told me that he is not going to get married again after he divorced and I remember that he signed his paperwork at October 2016 and we got married at February of 2017 That's great.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you're a cat you're a real catch then apparently you know it's kinda like but until now you know that uh it's already nine over nine just a little bit over nine years now and and we kinda like get along very well and I kind of lucky because uh he is very layback person very optimistic for not over nine years in our marriage I never seen him upset or angry even once so he always like laugh you know he is very he's very totally opposite to me he can talk to everybody he initial the conversations with everybody maybe just the balance I'm more quiet when when I in a big group and he is the one which talks all the time and I am the one who most is listen and chime in once in a while maybe there's always to be like the opposite to be balanced but the you know it's very supportive and and I kinda feel very lucky to to have him yeah that's beautiful yeah to have that kind of support behind you that that's really amazing and especially if it's a complimentary energy yeah that's great how how do you have fun what what how does Davidson ex you know you talked about the work and the stress there so so what's the counter to that how how do you have fun at this stage in your life how are you looking after yourself well like a lot of changing for the last few years but before that you know I just try to like take vacations I like to travel and a lot of times then when I during my process apply my green car I trap in US so I visit almost the most populous national park.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: I went to a lot of national parks I like to hide I like the nature so I that maybe it's a part for me to relax and I always like to travel to see the new architecture new culture try to experience new things that's part of the maybe help me is to kind of relax and I'm still doing that but recently we kinda have a different approach also I'm kinda doing different things with my husband is also tries to as you probably know after you get married for a certain time or year it can be that still the you know the way that we do things together and I tries to create something create spark for us to kind of refresh me so we won't feel like you know very boring a dog that's what relationships start fall apart so I'm kinda like okay I am so big I will start like kinda like going to join individual private groups it can be you know like about most things for the gay and some is for the socialized some is for the sexual risk you know we all we all need the requirement and needs anyway so so it's kind of like I kinda join more of this uh a private group because kind of tired with the social media those uh dating apps and I want to make new mean uh the people live in north that really kind of create a connections and even those that I say that I'm kind of shy but I can have my husband to initiate the conversations and I can chime in then I can start warm up and I can start talk.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so so so it's kind of like create a deepens for to try to keep the relationship small fresh nice that's great I love that and and I know that to the people that are listening and and watching this you're gonna you're gonna get some some good some good love from people you know yeah it's great one of the areas that I like to sort of wrap up you're a young guy you're you're just in you know 50 now but in you've you've had you know a long career already of 25 years like that's amazing or 20 plus years anyway.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us in your at this stage in your life what is some wisdom that you would like to share with others who who will be listening to this?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is there something that that you think you know you've you've embodied or you've adopted in terms of how you show up for your yourself and and that is some wise words to share with someone else?
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well I will separate into two one is the work and I know that the work always has the pressure and a lot of times we finish our project under the pressure.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: Can you sometimes it's good it can use the pressure as the motivation to help you push through what we are doing and sometimes that you know just face or deal with the pressure and it's like kind of like you know don't get pressure to get into us and how like most of the time I was just thinking like okay now this job creates so much pressure it's kind of like I cannot handle it anymore.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I start thinking back in the past I had the same pressure but now I look back that one is nothing.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure the pressure you have right now when in the future when you look back it's just nothing and it might be just another can be created experience for us to learn to improve through the life so maybe that's when you try to ask me how I deal with the pressure maybe that's one way that I deal with the pressure that I have at work and for for the like personal life for me I think we always choose to because I when I come here I still like not very confident or feel comfortable with my own skin.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: I always think that I'm very skinny you know and I'm not attractive and like I wouldn't fit in this gay world or gay society because uh you know who one of skinny guys you know but and I kind of start learning through and start building my confidence and my my point is the choice to be yourself try to feel comfortable with own skin and we we don't live with for other people we live for ourselves.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the main thing is the as soon as anything that we do we are not harming the society or hurt other people do it be yourself and that will make your life be more meaningful and happy that's really lovely.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's really lovely.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's hard sometimes it's hard to even know who we are ourselves right and that's where a little bit of quiet time a little bit of reflection a little bit of journaling to sort of get past some of the the chatter you know because this thing this thing can do a number on us right but that's beautiful that's really really lovely.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: Great words great words of of wisdom already and apply them to yourself right apply them to yourself because sometimes we can have you know my experience has been and I'm sure others will relate to this we can see others and and and and and have a sort of like a clarity around oh well that seems obvious maybe doing this or trying that or whatever but for our our own selves sometimes there's blinders right it's like I don't know yeah so just you know know that you've got so much beautiful potential for whatever comes in the future and I look forward to you know continuing to plug in with you in this community and draw on this community as one of the resources as as we grow this thing and and there's more opportunities to to plug in and engage people will want to engage with you for sure for sure because I think we're we are a generous and caring lot sometimes we get very self-involved because that's the nature of the society that we live in.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: But when we start to open doors to experience and grow together and to learn together and to trust each other and to love each other that's that's to me what this whole project is about you know leveling ourselves up as a community so that each one of us can level up as individuals.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Any final words you'd like to share before we wrap up no yeah not particular so just I say I always say that you know try to be yourself.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: That is only things that I always tell my friends don't be afraid to do things that you know you want us to do.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Of course that applies to myself sometimes we just never see our own problems.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: We can see other people's problems and we just you know lingering around our own problems.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah or the the solutions don't seem obvious and then hopefully having these conversations helps right helps some for some reflection probably when you go back and listen to this again it'll be like oh some other ideas will start to move and that's that's really important.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's really important right just like I said I just need to break my I need just need to break the ice that that is that's kind of hard I'm sure is for a lot of people too not only me.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah for sure well thank you Davidson this has been really lovely thanks for having me you're welcome thank you to our guests today and thank you for listening if what you heard landed with you if you felt seen heard inspired to make a shift want to hear about it.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Get back to me on one of our platforms or where you're listening to or seeing this and if you know another man over 50 who you think benefit from hearing this share it with them please this community grows when we show up for each other.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can find more essays on these topics reflections and such at our Substack account watch for other content on our YouTube channel and stay connected to us through our school platform.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we engage in building our community remember the second half of life isn't the beginning of the end for many of us it's the moment life finally begins to open up you're not alone in this we're it together I'll see you next time on the wisdom