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Mega Churches Part 2 · Walk Talk: Faith in Motion

• Randy: Mega churches part two. We're going to talk about who's on the list, top pastors, should they exist, and what our thoughts are about that and a whole lot more today on the walk talk. All right, brother. So hey, last time we ⁓ talked about two of the top 10 ⁓ wealthiest mega church pastors. And towards the end, we started to get into our own personal thoughts about just, you know, the existence of megachurches in general. So I I'd like to come back to that conversation and then ⁓ talk about a couple of the other pastors on the list and maybe ⁓ hear some of their teachings as well. ⁓ what do you think? Pj: That's right. Sounds good, brother. Yeah, so I mean, I I guess I can go ahead and and just kinda kick it off. I mean, in in in my personal humble opinion, I don't believe that there should be mega churches, ⁓ whatsoever. I I I just you know, I I think that ⁓ it's a good thing to to grow a church body. ⁓ but I d I think once you get to a point where you you're that big, you're you're also losing something. Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: Right. And and and then again, like you said, it's not like ⁓ you you're not ⁓ allowing other people to be engaged in their roles that that God may have planned for for them and and continuing their their kingdom work kind of thing. Randy: Mm. Yeah, yeah. I just I just feel like, you know, you get to a certain point. And again, I I would not feel comfortable putting an exact number on a church congregation, but I feel like at a certain point you, you know, there's a a point of dimin diminishing returns, right? That's a principle that we learn about like in e economics, for example, right? Like one cheeseburger is worth every dollar you spend on it. The second cheeseburger, ⁓ you know, it you you might need that second one to really feel full, but it might not be worth as much to you as the first one. But by the time you get to the third or fourth or fifth or sixth cheeseburger, you're so full that they can't give it to you for free because it's just not gonna do anything for you, right? And and that's that principle, that law of diminishing returns, applies to so many things. I feel like it also appl applies in church communities and congregations where You know, you have so many people who are part of a church that many of them don't know their pastor, ⁓ the pastor don't know them. ⁓ you have, you know, so many people who just become consumers and they're not able to, you know, adequately serve and participate. And it just kind of just feels watered down to me. Pj: Yeah. Well and and then I think about it like this, man. ⁓ I I know I talked ⁓ a couple episodes ago about I I think it was the one with Gina maybe where, you know, our pastor was talking about how s ⁓ some lady reached out and asked if if they did deliverance and she's like, Because I've contacted so many churches that that and nobody would would do it. No and so it's like this. In in in my opinion, you know, there there's such a huge gap, right? Of of of of churches Randy: Mm. Pj: like who need sound biblical doctrinal teaching like, you know, out out of out of the Bible. So y and and don't get me wrong, I'm sure that that that's how these mega churches started off thinking that they were doing just that. But in in my opinion, this is how I see it. Even if you're doing a mega church the right way, right? S you you start starting out, you you're building this congregation, you know, the the the anointing of God is flowing through through the word being preached and and the whole nine. Well, okay You start seeing this ex exponential growth, then guess what? I'm sure that there are people in that that congregation who can either go out and start another church who mirrors the same ideology. It it should all mirror, but I'm just saying, like there's another resource there, right? And and then like these people should be going out, going out. Or if if the pastor feels so led, it's like, Okay, look, I've I've got this church where it needs to be. Now I'm gonna go plant another one and plan another one. Like just this one central focus, like as many people as wanna come to me, come to me, come to me. It's like, man. Randy: Right, right. Right. Pj: You you you're you you should be trying to raise up other shepherds, not just trying to get the most sheep, you know what I mean? Randy: Exactly. And and I think that that's huge. And one of the things that I've seen that contradicts that principle is and I don't know if this is like ubiquitous or if this is just something that I just see here a lot in St. Louis. But what I do see a lot here in St. Louis is some of the bigger churches, they'll like plant another church and they'll even, you know, set a quote unquote pastor over that church. But they're just a branch, an auxiliary, an offshoot of the main church. And in fact, on Sundays, they just pull down a screen and they just play the main pastor on the screen. And there are some of these churches, man, who have like, you know, one big church with maybe a couple thousand people, and then two, three, four smaller churches that meet all over, even in other cities. Who, like I said, they may have a quote unquote local pastor. They may even have like a worship band. But then when it comes down to like the message time, they literally pull down a screen. And it's like, come on, you can't tell me that there's no one in that congregation who is not spiritually gifted enough to give the same exact if or a similar message. And just a message from God. I mean, look, the Catholics do it. The Catholics they have their ⁓ liturgy that they follow. Pj: That's Right. Or just a message from God, yeah. And yeah. Randy: And you know, if you go to different Catholic churches around the world, they're all basically sharing the same message on the same day, right? Which, you know, I again this is not to debate whether that's the right or wrong way to do it, but the point is, is do we really do we get more benefit from having these mega churches or from having more local smaller churches where people could use more of their gifts? Pj: Yeah. Which is yeah. That that that just reminded me of like an analogy, you know, like it's our job as our as as fathers to raise up our sons on how to be men, right? So like it's not so that I I we don't I don't raise my son and say, hey, listen, you don't need to learn how to be a man because whenever you get married, like I'm just gonna go and and find your wife and then you know, like, no, you know, I'm gonna take care of her and and I'll be her husband also, you know what I mean? And you could just stay under me. Randy: Right, right. Right. Pj: Like you know, like we're we're raised our sons to be men so that that they can leave and go and and and be the head of their own household and have their own children and and and multiply that way. Like so this idea of like, ⁓ well, like we're just gonna pull down the screen, it's like golly, man, like you at some point you gotta stand on your own two feet. Randy: Right. Yeah. Well Well, what you're getting at is the leadership principle that the greatest role of a leader is a leader who develops other leaders, right? And if you're a pastor who, you know, stays in the limelight and you are preaching at 10 churches all at the same time, you're not developing other leaders, other pastors, you're just developing more followers. And I don't that's that's, you know, that's that's not as good as you could be doing. Pj: Hundred percent. hundred percent. And I mean if you if you need an example of how that's done, I don't know, just look in the Bible at like Jesus who who had twelve disciples and said, Y'all go out and and preach this message. He wasn't like, Nope, hey, y'all go go tell all these people to come see me over here. I'm I'm gonna be over here, you know, and and comparing them like, you know, I'm selling out a show on Friday night. You know, like no. Randy: Yeah. Right. Right, right. And when you read the letters written by John, by James, by Paul, by Peter to other churches. These are churches that they either planted or they've ministered to or they're somehow connected to, they're basically like, you know, working with them and they have their own leadership. That they maybe helped set up or put in place, or maybe they planted the church and then they moved on. They're not trying to be the pastor over all these different churches. You know, they are writing letters to the leaders to either admonish them or to give them advice or rebuke them in some cases, but they are not writing them letters to basically, you know, preach to them and control them and to be the pastor over them, but to just plant seeds and continue to water them. Which again, there's nothing wrong with that. And if a you know, if a if a church gets to that point like you mentioned earlier, where they grow to such a number, they should be raising up people within to then branch off and they could teach a similar message, but let them be their own thing because ultimately I do think people should have a good relationship with their pastor. Their pastor should have good relationship with them. They should know each other. Let's just say that as a starting, starting place. They should actually know each other, right? ⁓ Pj: Yeah. Yeah. He should and he should be able to ⁓ be close enough to have the opportunity to pour into him directly, you know what I mean? Because I mean that that's a a very i important thing also, you know what mean? Man. Randy: Right. Right. So now we've kind of you know thrown it out there our thoughts on megachurches in general general, but ⁓ there was one more thing, one more thing that I thought about as you were talking earlier. And actually two more things. Sorry, two more things. I I do want to get to our list of of of the 10 wealthiest ⁓ pastors, but two more things that I that I thought of. One, I could also see the argument for having bigger mega churches. Or at least bigger churches, if if not always mega churches, in terms of resources, because smaller churches may struggle resource-wise to be able to do certain ministries. So when you were talking about the deliverance ministry, I could see small churches saying, look, we just don't have the resources, we don't have the people, the expertise, the skills, the knowledge, what have you to be able to have that ministry. Whereas maybe a bigger church with more people, more resources should have more ministries, and that could be you know, the way that those gaps are closed. So I I totally want to acknowledge that that could be a fair argument for having a bigger congregation. So any thoughts on that before I go on to the other thing I wanted to Pj: W well yeah, I I have no problem with growing a congregation. Our church right now is is is growing. Like the the church that I go to started out in a in behind a subway, like in a little room with no AC. Like we we bought a building two years ago, we added on to it for a children's ministry, we're adding on a fellowship hall, like it's growing and and it and it's great. But but but the the thing is is I know just about every like if somebody new comes in there, like we know we go love on them because like, ⁓ w you are small enough to Randy: Awesome. Pj: To know that they're new, you know what mean? ⁓ and and so, but I I I have no problem with with growing a church body for the purposes of the kingdom though. Like not just so that we can say, ⁓ you what, our church is awesome. We know everybody, like we always get a good like it's it's for us to I mean and there are multiple other ministries that have have sprouted out of, you know, what what's going on in the church. And and I think that that's awesome. And and not even just in the church body, I'm talking about like outside. the the body, you know, the the building, should I say. So so I yeah, I think that's good. But but I mean Randy: Yeah. And and I'm with you. Nothing against growing churches. And if God is blessing the church and they have to figure out what do we do now that we're growing, that's a great problem to have. But I think it's very telling in terms of the character of the leaders of the church, in terms of how they determine to handle it. So ⁓ and again it's well, I'll just kind of leave that one there. ⁓ but the other thing I did think about in terms of the mega churches in general. Pj: Right. That's a great problem to have, yes. Randy: Okay, so you know, I've kind of we've talked about this a little bit, but I have this ongoing reoccurring thought. A lot of people, you know, you have you have these recurring dreams. You might dream every once a year maybe of flying, right? Or you have a dream of falling, you have these reoccurring dreams. I have this reoccurring thought that just pops up in various different conversations when I'm talking about well, a lot of times when I'm talking about, you know, spiritual things, but it pops up in general. ⁓ and it's it's the the dichotomy, I guess, between our spirit nature and our and our fleshly worldly nature and how that shows up in different ways. And sometimes I see, you know, spirit spirituality show up in the fleshly side and and the fleshly side show up in the spiritual side. They cross over in ways that maybe they shouldn't, or in ways that maybe, you know, ⁓ It counterbalances the other. And I'm and I'm just saying that in general right now to say that I do see like a worldly fleshly component to these megachurches. You know, Matthew, and it's even called the Matthew principle in some areas, ⁓ because Jesus talks about it in Matthew. ⁓ other places ⁓ know it as the 80-20 rule, which basically says that you know, 80% of anything is defined by the 20%. So 80% of all wealth in our country is owned by 20% of the individuals. 80% of the revenue of a subway restaurant is going to be brought in by 20% of the customers. 80% of the problems you have as a teacher or in a country are going to be. The cause of 20% of the people. It's the Matthew principle, right? And Jesus says to those who have, more will be given. To those who don't have, even what they have will be taken away. And that's why it's called the Matthew principle, because usually it's associated with wealth and with having. You know, 80% of the music that we hear on the radio, whether it's Christian music or secular music, is owned and played by 20% of the artists out there, right? And it gets even more. ⁓ refined as you go up, right? Because even though, like say wealth wise, 80% of the wealth might be in the hands of 20%, we know that even of that 20%, most of it's in the 1%, right? So it's like it that that it's a it's more of a it's an exponential curve to where yes, 80% of the wealth might be owned by 20%, but of that 20%, maybe 19% is owned by the one percent. So it just is to me that principle is a universal truth. Pj: Yeah. Randy: That Jesus talks about, and it's something that we have to deal with. But I don't think that that is a spiritual ideal that that is being, you know, expressed there. It's just a reality of the world that we live in. And honestly, I believe that reality is caused by our sinful fleshly nature that we have ⁓ as just being human beings in this world. I really do. I don't believe that that God's plan is for the majority of everything to be, you know, hoarded by a small amount of people. And so and and I know I'm talking a lot here. So I'll wrap it up by just saying I said all that just to say that I see that same principle being applied in these megachurches as the reason why they exist. And I see that as a law of the universe, as a result of sin and as a as a result of flesh. Pj: No, absolutely not. Randy: Not as a result of the way God necessarily wants us to live in the kingdom of heaven. Right. And I do believe that that's a principle that will dissolve when Jesus in his kingdom fully does come into existence. Right now we're going through those transitions. And I think that, in my opinion, in my humble opinion, I think that they only exist as a result of that. principle. What are your what is your thoughts on that? Am I just crazy or or what do you what do you think? Pj: No man, I I I I I think, you know, ultimately at the end of the day for I mean for any of us, if if you stop and think about how opposite God's nature just I mean, even even if you're doing it the right way, preaching the the word, man, ⁓ be being in that position is. I mean, you you you think about ⁓ you know, the way Jesus looked at John the Baptist, you know. He was a humble person. He didn't he he, you know, wore the camel skin and and ate the honey and and the locusts and and and the the whole nine. Like wasn't worried about none of that stuff, man. Jesus himself humbled himself as God coming down to man to to fix our problem. So ⁓ you see this this characteristic of humility, right? Like ge Jesus was God in the flesh. He he wasn't, you know Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj: boasting these things. Like he didn't he didn't he didn't care. He slept outside, didn't even have a place. He was he was a nomad basically. You know what I mean? One around sleeping, you know, like he he would he would have been a homeless person by our standard of w how we view people today. You know what I mean? So it's like the the idea of like, hey, you know what? I'm gonna get all this things and I'm gonna do like it I I get it, man. Like you you know, ⁓ how how they s and and I this might be a a Randy: Right. True. That's true. Pj: bad analogy, but you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Like, you know, it's like, man, realistically, you know, th th there's reasons why it it says in the Bible, you know, the the first shall be last. And and and you know, he is who he who is servant hearted, you know what mean? Like it you know, it's it's all about ⁓ humility. And so it's like ⁓ okay, if we see that as the characteristic of God, then then what is the characteristic of having? You know what I mean? And and being like, ⁓ look Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj: Look at look at all the things. You know what I mean? Randy: Yep. Well, and and that's kind of where I I get that from because you know, when I think about it, I'll be honest, I'm torn. I'm a little bit torn because part of me says, Well, look at how Jesus lived, right? And like you're like you're mentioning, like Jesus, you know, if he he didn't worry about anything and he seemed to teach his disciples that they shouldn't worry about having anything either, right? I mean, when they didn't have enough food for everybody, he miraculously made more food appear, right? And you know, he says that, like, you know, the the the birds don't worry about what they're gonna wear or what they're gonna eat or drink, and God cares more about you than about them. So we shouldn't be so hung up on, you know, some of these things that we're hung up on. And you know, I didn't see you know, go and preach the gospel to all the nations as you know a contest to see who could build the biggest church, the biggest megachurch, which is why I feel like building a megachurch is more. Pj: Right. Randy: A fleshly desire and more of the outcome of, you know, pride and I hate to say sin, but I mean I I do see that there's sin in there. ⁓ at least from my perspective, I question it. And that's that's one side of me. But the other side of me says, well, you know, and you kind of hinted at this, it does say in the kingdom of God that if you want to be, you know, the greatest in the kingdom, you should be least of all and servant of all. Pj: Least of these. Yep. Yeah. Randy: Right. You should be the least of all and the servant of all. That those who could serve the most people are going to be the greatest. And so then I think, well, am I wrong for thinking of it this way, in terms of like a building a hierarchy and you know, hoarding all the resources and building this giant organization? Or are they just fulfilling that that that prophecy that they want to be great in the kingdom? So they're trying to serve as many people as possible. And I'll be honest, you know, when I first thought about this thought. I thought, and this contradicts my previous thought. I'm fully aware of that. These two, I'm like struggling between them. But I but but here's where I first thought about it. It was when I was just a few weeks ago, I was at the Phil Wickham concert, and I thought, look at this one guy up there in his little band, his little group of like 10-ish people, and they are serving these tens of thousands of people who are in this auditorium with their music. They are, you know. Pj: Growth and maturity is beautiful. I love it. Go ahead. Sorry for cutting you off. Randy: They are great. They are great. They are wealthy. They are they're famous. They're blessed beyond measure. I'm sure of it. Not that they don't have their struggles, not that they don't have their problems, but they are servants of all these people. They are here putting on a show and performing and blessing all these people with their music. So am I wrong to think of a mega church pastor? Maybe I should think of them the same way as I think of an artist. like Phil Wickham or maybe I should think of an artist like Phil Wickham the same way I think of the Megeth Church pastor and think maybe we should give more artists opportunities. I don't know. I I'm like I said, I'm going back and forth in my own mind. Pj: Yeah. Well, I I think that that what it is is ⁓ I and this is just my personal opinion, I can be way wrong. ⁓ but it's like I think we we try we we do a really good job job of of trying to have our cake and eat it too, right? It's like listen, I I wanna serve God and I want the creature compens comforts in my flesh. You know what I mean? I want I want both. ⁓ whenever I I I think that there's I think that we could see the better way would be to be like Jesus said, like, don't worry about none of this stuff. None of it matters. It's it's it's all gonna be go away, fade away, right? But but we're like, ⁓ I I want both. ⁓ now I I will say ⁓ so this might be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves, but ⁓ one of the mega church pastors that I really enjoy, who who's not even on this list is is ⁓ Phil Anthony Mitchell. Philip Anthony Mitchell and and he said himself being very open and honest and and transparent that he had pride in his heart that he this he said he had to ring out of him like ringing out water out of a towel he said he just had to wring it out of him and he said that that he would go to these conferences and they basically teach you it like they give you the the blueprint of how to grow a mega church, how to how to be a mega pastor. You know what I mean? Like you go to these conferences and and Randy: Wow. Pj: And and he was like, you know, I realize exactly what you're saying. He was like, I was doing this for myself, not for the kingdom. And don't get me wrong, he it nowadays I I I I'd I've only been watching him for about a year or so. and I mean he's got some pretty powerful stuff. I haven't really ⁓ seen anything that that's way out of out of line. ⁓ there are unfortunately some parts that I've kind of seen what that that that might be blind spots for him, but I believe that Randy: Interesting. Pj: Every Christian, every person probably has those. But I mean, all in all, it's like I don't know what his preaching was like back then, but he could have it could have very much been the same, but it was his heart posture, right? He was he was still preaching the word of God. I do believe he definitely has a gift of of oral presentation, even though he he considers that the cross that he bears because it's not what he wants to do according to him. But but I I he still he he could have been given the these same level messages. Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: But he was doing it back then to to build himself up for his own ego, his own pride as as as he said it. And and he he's since shifted to being like, Man, I just wanna steward this thing. And so I guess if we get into that space that okay, if you're gonna steward, well, how much really can you steward until you have to kind of like pass the baton off? You know what I mean? So Randy: Interesting. Right, right. Let's ⁓ let's let's play a clip of him of of him talking about this. I think that would be good to to for for us both to kind of listen to and reflect on. Pj: Alrighty. I'm gonna have to look that up, so give me a second. Randy: Okay, I'm gonna edit this I'm gonna edit this whole part out. So give you take your time, look it up, and then let's just kinda play that and then ⁓ and then we can go back to the list and and maybe get into some of the other guys at the top of the list here. Pj: Okay. Randy: Take your time, no rush. I think I I mean look, we've already been talking for almost twenty four minutes ⁓ on just the on just the wing in it. So I think we're off to a good start, man. And even if it's like, you know, a long video, five, ten minutes long, and it's like only like a minute or so in the middle of it, don't worry about it. Just play whatever you want. If you gotta skip around, I'll edit out the rest. Pj: ⁓ let me see I I don't know ⁓ man I This is probably not it. Randy: Share your screen. Hey, sorry to put you on the spot to pull up the videos, but I appreciate you pulling them up, man. Until we figure out what's going on on my end. Pj: Right. Mm. Ну Dang man. Let me see. ⁓ I'm not sharing my am I sharing my screen? No, sorry. I I I'll start it too and then I'll Yeah, I Let's see. I mean that's a good clip. ⁓ That's not it. Man, I really I wish I could find ⁓ that that first Mm. And ⁓ Randy: Let me try taping it into perplexity. You said you said Philip Anthony Mitchell was talking about what? Pj: R ringing ringing the pride out of his heart. Randy: So it gives me a link to something on Instagram. Think it's a link. Let me see if it opens up. Can't hear it though. ⁓ That don't seem like the right one. It's all right, let's just we could just move on. Pj: Okay. Yeah, I'll I'll look for it and and try to send you a link. Randy: All right, ⁓ no worries. Let me ask you this question then. ⁓ so Pat Robertson is number three, but he's dead. So should we skip him? I'm kinda thinking maybe we should just skip him and go to Benny Hinn, 'cause that'll be a fun one. And then Steven Furli Fertick is right after him. So I think those two will be pretty entertaining if we talk about them for a while and play some of their those those clips. Pj: Benny Henn sounds familiar, but I don't know that I I readily know who he is. Randy: ⁓ my gosh. Benny Hinn is the dude who like he ha he plants people in the crowd to pretend like they are being healed. Meanwhile, people who show up with real problems, they tell them no, go sit back down. Yeah. Yes, he's he's he's a bad one, man. He's he's he's to me, he's probably worse than Kenneth Copeland. Pj: Goodness. What a shame. Geez. That's Randy: But if you if do just do a YouTube search, just keep sharing your screen, ⁓ and just find just look up like I don't know, Benny Hinn, I don't know, greatest hits or something. And you probably will find plenty for us to talk about. Pj: All right. Many hand. Randy: So I'd say let's just look it up now and then like ⁓ let's just find a clip and then I'll introduce it. I'll kick it off. We'll get back into the video. I'll kick it off and then we can hit play and watch it. Pj: Okay, give it one second. This guy looks like a character. Randy: ⁓ yes. ⁓ yes. Benny Hinn is the ultimate character. He might not look like the devil like Kenneth Copeland, but yeah, let's see. Just just play like his greatest hits and see. Pj: my goodness. That's I've seen this. Randy: Yeah, ⁓ yeah, play that video right there. Play that one. Yeah. ⁓ Pj: I wish. Randy: I wish it didn't have the text on it. Pj: That's one heck of a jacket. Randy: I there's I I wonder if that same video exists without all the text there blocking the screen, 'cause that's Pj: That's why, man, I I can tell you that that's so frustrating to me because absolutely Jesus can still he is still in the healing business, man. But it's like th this kind of like mockery, man, it and I I don't know. It it's frustrating. I feel like man, where's the where's the reverence for the creator, man? Like, ⁓ this stuff just it it frustrates me so bad, man. Randy: Yeah. Let's ⁓ let's do this though, man. Let's ⁓ no ho go go go back to sharing. ⁓ let's do this. Let's play those same videos again, but let's let's pause after the first one and like talk about it a little bit so that way like I'm gonna cut all this part out. All right. And then let's just go back to just playing we'll just play those same videos again and then talk about each one of them. So all right, man. So Pj: ⁓ sorry. Randy: Let's ⁓ let's get into ⁓ talking about the next people on our list here. So you you got your screen sharing going on. So ⁓ let me just pull up the list one more time. I think number three was Pat Robertson, but we're gonna skip Pat Robertson. Last time we talked about number one, Kenneth Copeland, number two, Joe Olstein. Pat Robertson has passed away. We're gonna skip him and we're gonna go to number four, Benny Hinn. ⁓ who according to the stats is worth between sixty and sixty five million dollars. So let's take a look at a couple clips of Benny Hinn and then we'll react to him. All right, let's see the first one. Pj: Alrighty. Here we go. Randy: Take it. ⁓ my gosh. ⁓ wow. So he go ahead. That's a heck of a jacket. Yeah. So those if you've never heard or seen anything like this, for those of you who are maybe new, ⁓ you heard a little bit of speaking in tongues ⁓ there at the inn. You also ⁓ witness what ⁓ I believe is called being slain in the spirit, which is where someone lays hands on you or breathes on you or hits you with a jacket, apparently, and you Pj: Like I said, that's that's a heck of a jacket, is ⁓ that's that's all I At the end. Randy: Fall on the ground because ⁓ supposedly the spirit is moving. Pj: And and man, look, you know, it it's again, I always say I I don't put God in a box. Can God knock you off your feet if he wants to? Yeah, a hundred percent. and and if if my my thing is this is if this guy truly in his heart of hearts believes that that's what he's doing, then what's with the theatrics, man? Why why are you waving your jacket? Like you know, if if if this is a spirit thing, Like you know, are are you claiming that the spirit is in your jacket? ⁓ or you know, like what what's what's wrong with a good old I like I just don't I don't I don't get why it's done like that. You know what I mean? Like i i in in whenever I see things like that it it frustrates me because it feels like it's very mockingly done. You know what I mean? Randy: Yeah. I feel the same way. And look, I I'll admit that it does say, you know, in the Bible, I believe in Acts, that, you know, people were trying to just have the the shadow of the apostles, you know, but yeah, yeah, Peter specifically, right? You know, following them when he walked past because they were being healed. Right. Now, when I hear that, I don't I don't sense theatrics. I sense like these people have so much faith, like the centurion who told Jesus, you don't even gotta go to my house. Pj: Peter, whenever Healed, yep. Randy: Like, you know, I'm a man of authority. I get how this works. Just say the word. Like I see, I see more of that happening with people just saying, you know what? I got so much faith. I think that you know Peter could heal me. But if I can't make it to Peter, even if just his shadow passes over me, I'm gonna be healed. And their faith is what healed them. This, I mean, this you you used a good word there. Theatrics was a good word. ⁓ and to me, I just it doesn't feel genuine. It doesn't feel like, you know. Pj: Hundred percent. Randy: God moving, it just feels like hysteria. Pj: Well, and and what frustrates me is is what what I think about is is the the story of the woman who was bleeding for all those years and, you know, wanted to touch the hem of Jesus' garment. You know, because it's like here he is wave smacking people with jackets and like she literally crawled through this cloud and just to touch the hem of his garment because that's kind of faith that she had that if she could just do that much Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: and that he she would be healed and she was. And and I like how descriptive it is there in in in in scripture where it's like Jesus felt that that power leave him and was like, hey, who's touching me? And the disciples are like, What you mean? Jesus, we're the middle of a crowd. Like everybody's touching you. He's like, no. You know what I mean? And like I I just I I I love that. Like that's that's beautiful. And but like I said, to do it in this way where I I I just feel like it's being done mockingly and and and it's Randy: Right. It it and that's how I feel too. And let me just remind everyone that, you know, last episode we talked about the the word of faith movement or the prosperity gospel that some of these people on this list of the ten, you know, wealthiest mega pastors preach. ⁓ Kenneth Copeland definitely fell in that category of preaching the prosperity gospel, and so does Benny Hint. So when we say that he is one of the wealthiest pastors out there, ⁓ Pj: It's frustrating to watch. Randy: being number four on the list at you know sixty to sixty five million dollars net worth, this is how he's made his money by doing stuff like this, by quote quote unquote healing people, by you know, slaying them in the spirit, by putting on this kind of show. Pj: So so far all of them that we've we've gone over so far. So ⁓ just to I guess give ⁓ a list, they they just have I I I I did a Google search of the most famous prosperity gospel preachers that there are. and it says these are in order Kenneth Copeland, Joel Olstein, Benny Hinn, T D Jakes, ⁓ E. W. Kenyon. And Kenneth Hagen. ⁓ and then it says other notable preachers. ⁓ so there's a a bunch of them, but these are just the most famous ones. So so far we're like we're we're batting a thousand. You know what I mean? Great. Okay. Randy: Right. All right. Let's watch let's watch one more. Pj: Amen. I want you to do better too, buddy, just so we can be in agreement there. Man. Randy: So so let me just say this that I don't I I I I personally don't know if he's ever actually, or let me just say it this way. I don't know if God has ever healed anyone through Benny Hinn's ministry. I don't know. however, I do think that video was a little unfair. They, you know, you I wouldn't expect him necessarily to vet everyone who comes up to him and says they have some sort of ailment, ⁓ you know, before he prays for them or tries to, you know. ⁓ perform some sort of you know act of God you know with them to heal them. ⁓ so I I do see there being a little bit of an unfairness in setting him up that way. However, I do also know that there are tons of videos out there of people who have confessed that they similar to this woman were totally faking, being you know paralyzed or being injured or having some sort of disease. And, you know, being healed by him. Pj: Man, man, man. I I would not want to be in the shoes of somebody like that who has to answer to the Almighty for for those things, man. You know, it's and and you're right. I mean, you you shouldn't as a as a pastor, you know, you should if you're being obedient to the spirit of God, like you shouldn't have to, you know, do a background check to to lay hands and pray for somebody. You know, we we I I believe in supernatural healing a hundred percent. ⁓ but it it's just Randy: Right. Pj: I I think that it's it's one of those things like, you know, man I I don't know. It's just how much how much of that did he set himself up for with with his theatrics. You know what I mean? And and I mean it's man. Randy: Right. So there's been a lot of criticism, you know, ⁓ sent his way by other believers because they, you know, there's been a lot of claims that his healing claims are false. ⁓ and there's been a lot of speculation as well as people have come forward. ⁓ then he's also been quoted on saying some weird stuff ⁓ in regards to the Trinity. ⁓ one of his quotes ⁓ in reference in in a sermon is He suggested there were nine members of the Trinity. ⁓ his exact quote is there are nine of them. ⁓ which later he apologized for saying. But you know, many of his critics have pointed to this as just an example of carelessness and just you know not being above reproach and just you know saying things that theologically Just don't make much sense. So when you got statements like that, like there's nine members of the Trinity, ⁓ okay. ⁓ that's again, that's something taken out of context. I haven't heard the whole sermon. Maybe he has some good reasons. I don't know what they would be, but okay, maybe he's counting, you know, I don't know what he would be counting on. I I I got nothing, but I'm just trying to give up the benefit of the doubt. And I don't see how in any context it would make sense. Pj: Yeah, I You know, you what's crazy to me, man, you know, so that that kind of spiritual, supernatural healing is is definitely a a gift, something that this the spirit can do, right? You know what's another one? Prophecy, right? ⁓ you know what they used to do to prophets who they found were were not prophets, not real prophets, they'd kill ⁓ So it you know yeah, a hundred percent. You get stoned to death. So like the fact that you could just be out here doing this kind of fraudulent Randy: ⁓ yeah, yeah. The test of the prophet, yep. Pj: Nonsense, like, come on, man. Like, where is the dang reverence? Where is it at? Golly. Randy: Yeah. Yep. And he's another one, again, you know, already mentioned this, but he teaches this prosperity gospel. He's out there. I mean, again, should mega churches exist? Is this prosperity gospel biblical? I mean, to me, this kind of stuff that he's doing, it looks like it's just meant to just bring in donations and just build his own little personal kingdom. That's just what it looks like. ⁓ sorry, you know, I know that sounds judgmental. ⁓ but I don't think that he's doing the kingdom of God ⁓ a service with his ministry. Pj: Right. And I mean, we're the Bible says that we are supposed to righteously judge each other. And I mean, you have to think about it also, man, you know, the Bible's clear like God will not be mocked. And I mean, if these kind of things if it don't fire you up, you know, if you're the type of person who if somebody says tells you a a yo mama joke you wanna fight, but then somebody's gonna talk about the the creator of heaven and earth and you're like, ⁓ whatever like I mean, you know, y you might Some and some people might call it silly. Like whenever I stopped cursing, I'm like, man, I don't care if people curse, you know, it's it's one of those things. Go what you feel. The only curse word that bothers me is G D. I'm like, bro, like that's that's the only thing that I would ask that yeah, at least refrain from saying, at least around me, you know, say something else. But but other than that, it's like it's just one of those things, man. It's like r respect respect the creator, man. Like we're ⁓ you know, it Randy: Right. Pj: If if you're not if you're not wise enough, right, to fear him, because that they say to fear the Lord is is is wisdom, right? If you're not that wise, then at least respect him a little bit. Golly. Randy: Right, right. All right. Well, hey, I think that's enough about Benny Hinn. ⁓ now let's go to let's go to the one that I've been dying to get to, which is the one that you shared with me ⁓ a few days back. So let's talk about Steven Furtick. Now I'll be honest, that was a name I had never heard before. So and I forget you you you sound it sounds like his church is part of ⁓ big mute music ministry or something out like that. Yeah, what's ⁓ tell me a little Elevation Church. Pj: Right. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Elevation church. Elevation church. ⁓ home of elevation worship. Yeah. So ⁓ here's another fun fact about good old Stephen Furlick Furtick, whatever. Yeah. Randy: That sounds familiar. Okay, okay. Ferdick. Yep. And by the way, he's number five on my list of the richest US mega church pastors at fifty five million. Pj: ⁓ yeah, buddy. So he also has a a a a a music career. He is part of a group called Sons of Sunday, whose whose names include the likes of Brandon Lake and Chandler Moore are the two most notable ones. There's a there's a like I want to say it's like five or six members, including him and ⁓ Randy: Okay. Okay. Pj: And yeah, so he sings with with with the likes of those guys. And listen, I'll I'll be a hundred percent honest. ⁓ there they do have ⁓ a song called God Did, in which Steven Furtick is very much involved in singing the song. Love the song to death. It's a great song. It it as far as worshiping the Lord, that that really it it it it stirs my spirit. ⁓ but yeah, man, he so I came across him because of the amount of popularity he was gaining like all over like Reels, TikTok, like he you know, the thing is is, you know, you you see this movement in the culture and and some of the older heads of the church have kind of pointed it out where they're like, you know, you have these these pastors who want to relate to these kids so much that they're going shopping at Abercrombie and wearing the skinny jeans and trying to be this, that, the other. You know what I mean? Look look like a rock star. Right. Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, right. That that kind of seems like anyways. Wait Randy: ⁓ yeah. They wanna be they wanna be cool. Yeah. Pj: We won't beat that dead horse anymore. But yeah, so ⁓ man, so you know, I kind of kind of saw stuff popping up. And to be honest with you, the first couple things that I heard come out of him, I'm like, ⁓ man, that's that's pretty cool. Pretty cool. And and you know, honestly, it was my wife who was like, She's like, Have you ever listened to like a full one of his sermons? And I was like, No, I I've caught I've caught a couple things here or there. I was like, Why do you ask? And she was like, She's like, like Go go specifically go look him up. So I was like, okay. So I looked him up and it was there were so many things like these outlandish things that that he says that he has said. So he he kinda has a ⁓ like a a little like playlist of just wild things. So Randy: Well well while well while you're while you're getting ready to share those, let me just say something that you just you just jogged a memory of mine because you just made me think, and this is not my original thought, but you know that back in the day I used to do Christian hip hop. And one concert I did, I actually got a chance to ⁓ be part of a show where I opened up for someone that a lot of people might have heard of. His name was KJ52, and he's he still does music and Pj: Come on. Randy: Not only did I get a chance to open up for him, but I actually, you know, we were doing a concert down in Pueblo. And I actually was, you know, me and another guy went and picked him up from the airport in Denver. And I got this, you know, share a car ride with him all the way from Denver to Pueblo. So for about two hours, you know, we drove with KJ 5 2 all the way down to the show that we were doing. And I don't remember how it came up, but while we were driving, he shared with me. That you know, he just does music. He's like, you know, I'm I'm I don't preach sermons. ⁓ you know, I just I'm just here to do music. I'm not a pastor. And he may be now, I don't even know if he is now, but he was basically telling, telling us that look, there's a lot of these churches who will invite someone like me, talking about himself and other rappers ⁓ that you know are in the Christian hip hop world, other people you would know of. That ⁓ he said when they when they ask him to come and rap, they also want them to like preach. And he he was very much a fan of saying, Look, I believe the rappers should just rap and the preachers should just preach. And he's like, Some of these guys, he's like, Let me just say, you don't want them to preach, you want them to just stick to the music that they do, and they do good music and they do, you know, God-honoring music, but let's just leave it at that because you know, beyond that. Pj: Right. Randy: Don't you just don't want them to preach. And it sounds to me when I hear you say, like, hey, this guy's got a song that touches my heart and I and I can worship to that he may be in that camp of dude, just stick with the music. Like just leave the preaching to somebody else and stick with the music. So it it just a thought that that I had, you know, that reminded me of that conversation with KJ whenever you ⁓ when you were saying that. Pj: Well yeah, and and I mean, look, man, he's I mean yeah, I I mean ⁓ I I I think maybe that's more in line with him ⁓ l allowing God to use him like for a gift that he has, you know, and instead of like ⁓ maybe an own his own personal prideful agenda. I don't know. I don't know. You know, only that that's between him and the Lord. But it's just Yeah, anyways, I and I try not to let that take away because the I've seen all these things and it's and it's crazy things. And and and I guess just to just to make this disclaimer, you know, for for both this episode and and maybe the previous one, is is again, I know a lot of this stuff sounds negative. I I'm I'm not it's not that I'm not giving these people grace. I know that every every one of them that we're talking about are human and and and you know we we all we all sin, we all fall short. And and and I'm just these are these are This is just almost like just us trying to share some discernment with with those of y'all who who may be just blindly following these people and don't see anything wrong. Don't see any little, you know, don't see the little nuances of hey, maybe we should be more c careful or mindful of these things. So we're just not us hating or bashing on anybody. Randy: Right. Right. And we're not or judging or condemning, we're not saying none of these people are doomed and going to hell or they're not saved. We're just saying that look, we don't agree with their approach and we think that, you know, they should probably, you know, do things differently. Pj: Hundred percent. Yeah. Because ⁓ like we talked about on the last episode, you know, ⁓ there even good preachers are are are gonna make mistakes, but you have to be able to be made aware of those mistakes and correct them. Like ⁓ who was it in the Bible? Apollos that in in the beginning of the church was was preaching, you know, about the baptism one way and then was made aware like, ⁓ well it's you know, that was with John, blah blah blah, and then he changed and all right. Randy: Right. Yeah. I don't know. I'm just dying to see these videos though. So you share your screen, man. Let's get into the Steven Furlik videos. Pj: ⁓ I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry. So much. So much, man. I get I get side sidetracked like a squirrel sometimes. You gotta forgive me. All right. So this is this is the most I I guess let's yeah, let's go ahead and start out with the the cringiest one right right away. Yeah, so let me ⁓ yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna get to that one. Check this out. Randy: Alright, we'll see what you got. Cringiest one. I like the cocaine one. I thought that was a good one. You guys saw that one up there. Pj: Hmm. Randy: Okay, did I hear him correctly? It sounded like he said I am God Almighty. Pj: Correct. That's what he said. And and and that's that's one of those things. It's like, man, that's you know, a if you was in Solomon's temple, we'd be in a it'd be a crazy time right now. You know what I mean? Randy: Well, the cr the crazy thing is, is even Jesus didn't say that when he was asked so many times, like he said, like I and the and the and the and the I and the Father are one, right? He said, If you've seen me, yeah, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. He said, Abraham rejoiced to see my day. Like he said all these things, but he was never so blunt and direct as to say, I am God ⁓ Almighty. Pj: If you have mm hmm or if you've seen the father you s yeah, right. Yeah. Sounds like he was more humble than that, huh? Weird. Randy: I mean, I I'm hoping this guy just misspoke and that was just something that just went viral because it was just a a a a major blunder. ⁓ but that's just not good. Pj: Well well the the the hits keep coming. Yeah. Randy: I like I like that for the record. For the record. I like that. But again, that goes sorry, go ahead. Well, it goes back to being above reproach, man. Like, how are you gonna say, man, this reminds me of doing cocaine and and not, you know, and remain above reproach? Like the first thing everyone's gonna think of think is how do you know what doing cocaine is like? And look, and if he did do cocaine and that's something that God saved him from, then okay, like don't lie about it. Like, I mean Pj: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ it's like, ⁓ wait Freudian slip, Freud and slip ⁓ Randy: I don't know. Either way, either he lied about it, ⁓ or you know, I don't know. It's just not good either way to say that. Pj: From from what I what from what I remember, it was there was something about like basically him being like, you know, ⁓ I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, it makes me feel like I'm on cocaine. And I'm like, What are you talking about? What are you talking about? ⁓ okay. Yeah, here's another one. Here's another one. Randy: Yeah. That's that's just very cringy. Pj: ⁓ sorry. Randy: Hmm. All right. So tell me what your thoughts are on this one. Pj: ⁓ man I again I think that this is dancing around something that that could be accurate, but it's just I I I don't so so the the the first and I don't remember where it is in the Bible, but is i isn't there something directly where someone is asking, you know, God help my unbelief, you know, ⁓ like Randy: Hm. Pj: He he's ign they're acknowledging that they ha they believe, but they're like, God help my unbelief. You know what I mean? Like I believe in you but but help I I know it that there's it's somewhere in the Bible where it does say that. ⁓ and and and so I I don't know if again that this is kind of like a distortion of of that. ⁓ and what we'll need Randy: Good question. Well, it w what it makes what it makes me think of right away is like some of the Calvinist like doctrines, like the doctrine of the total sovereignty of God, which basically says that, you know, because we're all born spiritually dead, even believing is a gift that, you know, God has to actually wake us up and revive us to even be able to believe. Where, you know, I wouldn't necessarily totally agree with that doctrine. I do believe that God wants everyone to believe, but he also, you know, even though he's sovereign, kind of puts his sovereignty to the side and says, I allow you to to make the choice because he gave us free will. And I d and I think that that's kind of something that people have always struggled with is how do we balance our free will with God's sovereignty? People have even gone so far as to s to struggle. People have even struggled with just his foreknowledge, his omniscience, and how in our free will, because there seems to be this struggle between, well, how can God how could we actually have free will if God knows what I'm gonna choose? ⁓ and then it kind of becomes this circle where where people think because God knew, you know, He we don't have free will, therefore He chose for us, and then you kind of get in this loop between free will, sovereignty, and and and and omniscience. So Pj: No. Randy: I definitely just don't claim to know the answers there, but I I would s go ahead. Pj: ⁓ So let No, I was just saying I want to jump in right there because I just had a conversation like a a couple days ago with with somebody struggling with the same thing. And basically what I what I told him was like, man, think about it like this. Like if you watch a rerun, you know exactly what's gonna happen. But you can't affect it the it it it's already happened. Like God is outside of space and time. So just because he knows what he the beginning and end of a thing simultaneously. Randy: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Right. Right. Pj: doesn't mean that that by knowing that he's not allowing the free will to happen. Like if you're watching something everywhere and you're not affecting the storyline just by knowing what's gonna happen by every decision that they make starting from the beginning to the end. You're not influencing them. You're not changing anything. You just know. You know what I mean? So that's kind of how I explain that that thing to him. And Randy: Right. Sure. I and and I've and I've used a similar analogy because I totally that totally makes sense to me. Pj: And and so the only thing ⁓ you know, ⁓ so I'm sitting here watching, I I don't like ⁓ you know, the ideas of like, you know, ⁓ there is one thing that God can't do. Like he he can. And and the only kind of saving thing that he said ⁓ was, you know, he was like he started off like, yeah, he Jesus can do everything, but he can't do this. And then he was like where he he did he did though in there he had the ability to. So it's like okay, well, like You know, it's like then don't say he can't. He can, but he chooses not to because he's not going to force himself on you. Like I I would I would phrase it more like that. Randy: Right. And I think that's a and I think that's a better way to say it. I I would say instead of going around saying God or Jesus can't do something, it which automatically implies a limit to a limitless God. ⁓ I think it would it's better to use language, and this is a it's a semantics thing, but it it's important because it of the the the implications, right? And and I think it's better to use language like he limited, he chose Pj: Yes. Hundred percent. Randy: to limit what he would do because of their faith or something like that. Because we know ultimately if God wants to harden Pharaoh's heart, he's gonna harden Pharaoh's heart, right? Pj: Right. Well and see and I think that those things are intentional because like you said, it some people might say semantics, but what what he has just planted in people's minds is that they're that j ⁓ Jesus has a flaw, right? There well, he he there's some things that he can't do. Well if he if there's something that he can't do, then i is he really God? You know what I mean? Like because I thought God could do everything. You know, and so and he even kind of flirts with this duality of of he says a thing like to to plant a seed of of doubt almost if if you will, and then and then address the elephant in the room and saying, ⁓ y'all look at me like wait, I thought God could do anything. And then further trying to like build these these thought passages, you know, these these these almost like a a muscle memory of thoughts of like, ⁓ wait a minute. Okay, well, you know, I remember he said Jesus, there's something that he can't do. And then he, you know, I I was thinking, what I thought he couldn't and he addressed that and now he made me feel like it's just a whole thing. It just leads down a rabbit hole. And he does that Randy: Yeah. Pj: In this other way, I'm gonna see if the the clip is here where ⁓ he basically says that God broke the law for love. I'm like here we go of of acute making these accusations against God in a way that is contrary to to him being you know all knowing, all powerful, all you know, ⁓ just and Randy: Right, right. Well, you know, going back to what you know, what I shared earlier about my conversation with KJ, it's like, you know how hard it is to be like a world class musician or a world class athlete or a world class anything. Like it's so hard to be, you know, the best of the best of the best of anything. If you're trying to be that at two things, you're probably gonna mess one of them up. So yeah, I don't know. It's just Pj: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ and so look, I'll I'll play this because ⁓ you know it's funny that you mentioned old Benny Hinn saying that there's nine holy spirits. So and this is just to draw the parallel between you could see that the similarities in you know, you you can just say, ⁓ these guys are all ⁓ prosperity gospel teachers or preachers, and these guys all have mega churches, but you'll see like they all they all sold these little differences in doctrine, and so Does Benny Hinn said that there's nine ⁓ nine holy s and and so this is is Stephen Ferd Furdix's little twist on on on the Trinity and or the Holy Spirit at least. So I I saw this, I thought it was kind of interesting. Check this out. Randy: Nine nine people of the Trinity. Pj: I don't know about all that, but but yeah, he was basically saying that that Jesus was not Jesus anymore. He transformed it to the Holy Spirit and and then lived inside of us. So which is is not in alignment with Jesus ascending to heaven and and the Holy Spirit being its own entity and the Trinity being the Trinity. You know what I mean? Like it it's just it's Randy: So I don't know what it's called, but there is, and maybe it was what did that little cartoon character call it? Mortalism or something. I there is there is one view that basically, you know, God is not three separate entities that make up one, but just shows up in various different forms. ⁓ and they would and they would say something like, you know, when God, you know, is acting as, you know. Pj: Yeah, something like that. Randy: Ruler of heaven and earth, creator of the universe, that is God the Father. When he put on flesh for that amount of time, he was God the Son. Now that he's living inside of us, he's the spirit. You know, he was once God the flesh again when he was Melchizedek, and maybe he was he's even walking around right now as I don't know, John Smith or someone. I don't know. ⁓ but basically, the whole philosophy or or or theology behind it is that you know, that's how they choose to understand the Trinity. as not like three separate but equal persons that form one, ⁓ but as like God taking multiple forms that are all fully and equal got equally God, if that makes sense. So I've I've heard a version of that before. And yeah, I think the early church did deal with it and call it a heresy. Pj: Yeah, I mean a and I I think for for good reason, in my opinion. Randy: Yeah, I mean, and and look, man, look, I would just say this though as I was listening to the different clips that you know that you played on him, the one thing that I just kept thinking of, and it really sealed it there at the end is look, there are so many things in the Bible that is already hard to understand, ⁓ that we're gonna struggle with. They're they're mysteries. The Bible calls them mysteries, you know, for a reason. ⁓ I think that, you know, especially as a leader, as a teacher, especially with a bigger platform. You know, people have to be very careful what they infer from the, you know, from the scriptures. And maybe the best thing to do is just, you know, preach the gospel and the word of God as you read it and not infer and try to like, you know, add too much or take away. I mean, I'm pretty sure the Bible tells us we should not be adding to or taking away anything, but actually preach the word of God and you'll be safe. I mean, because if you pull if you pull out ⁓ you know. book of John and read it verse by verse verse and says, here's what it says and here's what it teaches, it's a lot harder to go astray than when you're, you know, speculating on all these like, you know, weird thoughts that might pop into your head and then maybe later on find out that it's actually a heresy that's already been addressed. You know what I mean? So maybe just preaching the word, the simple word of God is really the best course of action. Pj: Yeah, and man, I ⁓ I saw another video of of somebody who ⁓ used to be a ex member or whatever of the Elevation Church and they worked on his staff and and they had some interesting perspectives ⁓ of of, you know, things like ⁓ they they didn't they didn't ⁓ w like in instead of having like saying, ⁓ we're we're gonna have worship service or something, he was like he he would correct people like, No, this is gonna be an experience. You're gonna have an experience here. And yeah. And then he was like just weird weird things like that. And then ⁓ you know, ⁓ I I think ⁓ they had to sign like non-disclosure clauses about like how the the money of the church was being spent and the amounts that that were going to like him and stuff like that. Because I this guy that came and you know blew the whistle. Yeah. I'm I'm sure Randy: A worship experience? Interesting. Which is probably common with a lot of the mega churches. That's probably common. Pj: I'm I'm sure, but you know, he was very much talking about how you remember how I I I mentioned on the last episode, these kind of preachers basically tried to ⁓ w what was that word that I I I I told you I'd found, ⁓ North North of Jesus? Yeah. He he said that he was very much like that. Like he said he he was telling the story about, you know, Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead and basically was like Randy: ⁓ yeah. Pj: putting himself in the position of like Lazarus or something, something to that effect. And I'm just like, man, this is so wild, you know, so wild. And and and that's the thing. I, you know, sometimes I think like what how beautiful would it be if if somebody like this would would actually completely use this this gift that he has for the purpose of God's kingdom. Or I also think on on the flip side of that, does he only have this ability because he's not using it? for the kingdom of God. You know what I mean? ⁓ so where where is this where is this gift truly coming from? ⁓ and and and and again this is something that I I think about and and I know, you know it just I I sometimes I don't know if it's just the old doctrinal way that or ⁓ yeah the the old doctrine way that I was brought up or if it if it really is applicable. But you know the Things like this, seeing things like this, ⁓ make me me think about that verse, you know, where it's like, you know, on that day many are gonna come to and they're gonna say, Lord, Lord, I did all these things in your name and he's gonna say, Depart from me, I never knew you. You know what I mean? He doesn't he doesn't correct them and say, ⁓ you wasn't doing that in my name. He just says, No, you well, yeah, you you did miracles and you cast out demons you with your jacket or whatever, but he's gonna say, You know, I never knew you. You know what I mean? You you were out there making you know, building mega churches off of my name and off of, you know, things that were about me, but you never had a relationship with with me. It was always it was always just about your your your own prideful ambitions. Randy: Yeah, so I think it was we we referred to this last time, ⁓ but I think I found it. I think it's in Philippians chapter one, where Paul kind of addresses a lot of what we've been talking about here. So let me ⁓ let me pull it up real quick. ⁓ Philippians, I'm going to Philippians one fifteen through eighteen. So just give me ⁓ let's see, I'm not too far off here in my Bible app. Philippians one. Okay, so here it says, ⁓ some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, others from goodwill. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way. Whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. So at the end of the day, man, I just gotta agree with Paul. You know, I mean, we've talked a lot about how, you know, we don't want to we're not here to judge these people, we're not here to condemn them or say that we believe they're not saved or they're going to hell. I definitely would, you know, give them some advice and say, you know, hey, I think that some of what you're saying doesn't align Pj: Mm. Randy: With the Bible and without trying to judge anyone's heart, people, I could see why people might question that some of what you're doing or saying is coming from selfishness, from fleshliness, from worldliness. ⁓ whether that's the intent or not, I'm not here to judge it, but I could definitely see why people might accuse ⁓ you know, some of these guys of that. But at the end of the day, I would agree with Paul and I would say, you know what, though, at the end of the day, you know, in every Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed and in that I rejoice. And I would agree with Paul that at the end of the day I'm a I'm a I'm I'm I'm happy that Christ is being proclaimed. Pj: Amen. Yep. Yeah. Hey and look so I just that that made me remember to that that unbelief helped my unbelief. So I actually looked that up. So that's that's in ⁓ that's gonna be Mark what is it, nine Mark nine twenty four. And and interest ⁓ interestingly enough, it's about the the story about when Jesus heals the boy who's in possessed by the impure spirit. And ⁓ so it it's funny, so the the the boy brings this this ⁓ the father brings his son to To Jesus and and Jesus asked him, so this is verse twenty one, it says, Jesus asked the boy's father, How long has has he been like this? And the father replies, From childhood, ⁓ it it has often thrown him into a fire or water to kill him. But if you but if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us. And Jesus said, J Jesus said, If you can, said Jesus, everything is possible for for one who believes. Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, I do believe. help me overcome my unbelief. So ⁓ so you know it's just it's just one of those things, man. It's you know, like I I think it's interesting that that that that ref references ⁓ you know, getting an unclean spirit out and and ⁓ what we were were talking about earlier. So I and and I I I guess, you know, it's just kind of funny that that's what what kinda came up. So but yeah Randy: Hm. All right, man. Well, hey, so that ⁓ that gives us four of our top ten lists that we've talked about so far. So we've talked Kenneth Copeland, Joe Osteen, Pat Robertson. We skipped. We talked about Benny Hinn, Steven Furlick. It's been very interesting, and I believe every single one of them all align around the ⁓ the ⁓ word of faith or prosperity gospel, right? They're all people who Pj: Yeah. Yeah. Name it, claim it. Yep. Randy: Name it and claim it, right? They're all people who align to that ⁓ way of teaching, which is probably, you know, the main reason why they are the top five ⁓ in terms of, you know, the the most wealthy mega church pastors. So with that, I think that pretty much does it for this episode. What do you think, man? Pj: Yeah, I I think so. And and also just to add this real quick, we did also get to talk about Philip Anthony Mitchell, who's one of my personal favorites. And he's not on the list. ⁓ I would definitely encourage anybody out there listening to to check him out. ⁓ and and and look, it's not to say that, you know, he he hasn't had his moments where he's had to openly apologize for for saying something out of turn. And ⁓ but, you know, I think that that's that shows humility also at at a at a level like that. So Randy: Right. I agree. And I think that it's very important that, you know, regardless of your earthly status and fame and fortune and recognition that you stay humble. I mean, I think that that that is, you know, something that Jesus modeled better better than anyone and something that we all need to need to do. And and honestly, you know, I hope I hope, you know, I hope our conversation earlier, ⁓ about, you know, just my general thoughts between mega churches and Pj: Yes. Randy: know our conversation around mega churches and how I've kind of even wavered in my own thoughts between are they actually you the least of all and servant of all or ac are they actually you know we're you know operating out of you know worldliness ⁓ and in the flesh like I do might go back and forth and I could see both sides. I hope that that's helpful as well because we don't claim to know all the answers. We're just two regular guys who just you know are observing Pj: Dang Randy: And paying attention and talking about what we see and what we hear and just giving our perspective. Pj: That's right. We I was gonna say we made it a couple episodes without the disclaimer, we're not pastors, we're not priests, we're just two guys. Good stuff. Well Randy: ⁓ it's always in the intro either way, so there's no getting away from it. Although one of these days you're probably gonna go ⁓ get like a online doctrinate degree or something, and you're gonna be Pastor Verdon, and then I'm gonna be like, ⁓ we're just one regular guy and this this ⁓ this priest or something, I don't know. Pj: Well no. I I w I would like to not for the not for to have the intent of of ever like leading a congregation unless God put that on my heart, but just to be more knowledgeable. You know what I mean? Just in general. So ⁓ yep. But good stuff. All right. Well that I think Randy: Yeah. All right, man. Well, hey, thank you. Thank you all so much for following the show. If you haven't already, like, subscribe, do all that stuff. And before you go, let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj: Yes. God bless.