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The Benefits of Massage · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we Do what we Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we Do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: oiled host, Abraham, and I.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Am your relaxed host Shane.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the things the humans and non human animals do, and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: sometimes we talk about the things that they do to
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: each other and whether that is always good or sometimes
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: it's not so good. And yeah, that's what we're doing.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, So today we are talking about massage, So we
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: are talking about the fine art of rubbing other people
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  Speaker 2: in a relaxed space.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, And if you are joining us for the first time, welcome.
• 0:52
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  Speaker 1: I'll talk more about those at the end of this discussion.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: But we are into April, and in fact we are
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  Speaker 1: all the way April ninth, which means it is Appomatics Day.
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  Speaker 3: Happy Appomatics Day.
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  Speaker 2: What a great word. I think appomatics is just fun
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  Speaker 2: to say it is. I like it. It's also Chinese
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  Speaker 2: Almond Cookie Day.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It is day of the Finnish language, not finished like
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  Speaker 1: it's over, but finish, like belonging to Finland.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. It's International ASMR Day. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: It is International Day of Pink.
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  Speaker 2: Not the singer, just the color. Okay, No, celebrate pink too,
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  Speaker 2: She's fine. Sure, it's a day, do tell Yeah, I
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  Speaker 2: couldn't tell you.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: It is Jumbo Day. Maybe that has to do with
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  Speaker 1: Jenkin Jenkins's ear.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I wish it was Jenkoh's Day. That'd
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: be fun. Today is Name Yourself Day.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: I named myself Abraham here. It is National Cherish and
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Antique Day, I suppose.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if you like that sort of thing.
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  Speaker 2: I guess. It is National Chicken Little Awareness Day, which
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  Speaker 2: I think is in a world where we were all
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  Speaker 2: interconnected via the Internet, it's definitely worth paying attention to
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  Speaker 2: the sky or falling folks.
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  Speaker 3: Sure, as opposed to chicken big.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: It is National dive bar Day. Drink responsibly, I guess.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, if you're in punk bands, then you know
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  Speaker 2: what all these places are because that's those are the
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  Speaker 2: only places you can get gigs, which is fun fair enough.
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  Speaker 2: It is National Former Prisoner of War Recognition Day.
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  Speaker 3: That seems important.
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  Speaker 2: M M.
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  Speaker 1: It is National Gin and Tonic Day to go at
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  Speaker 1: the dive bar. I guess, although that doesn't feel on
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  Speaker 1: brand for a dive bar, maybe it is.
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  Speaker 3: I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I feel like if it were National
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  Speaker 2: PBR Day probably would. But I guess, you know, maybe
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  Speaker 2: if it's well gin, I don't know, homemade gin, homemade
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  Speaker 2: gin yees, which seems like maybe that could be harmful
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  Speaker 2: to you. It's a National Unicorn Day.
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  Speaker 3: There's only one. There can only be one.
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  Speaker 1: It is a Winston Churchhill Day for some reason.
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  Speaker 2: Yes it is. It is bat Appreciation Week, which makes
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  Speaker 2: me think of what we do in the shadows.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate bats. Bat.
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  Speaker 1: It is Be Kind to Spider's Week. That's a good one.
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  Speaker 1: I actually that makes me think that maybe we should
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  Speaker 1: talk about spiders at some point, because they are this
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  Speaker 1: very maligned creature that is mostly benign to humans, and
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  Speaker 1: they do lots of actually even really good things for
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  Speaker 1: us sometimes.
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  Speaker 2: So I feel like spiders and snakes get a bad rap.
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  Speaker 3: They do.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, unfortunate. It is Explore your Career Options Week, if
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  Speaker 2: you you know, I mean especially these days, which is
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  Speaker 2: you know, everything is uncertain.
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  Speaker 1: If you used to work for the US government, that's
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  Speaker 1: probably a thing that you're doing. Yeah, and any of
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  Speaker 1: the businesses that those employees used to patronize, because now
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  Speaker 1: that they're not employed, they're not shopping at places, so.
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  Speaker 2: Right, you know, it's a cascading effect.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It is International Trombone Weeks. This is only for trombones
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  Speaker 1: that have traveled overseas.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're talking Spanish trombones, We're talking Kenyan trombones.
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  Speaker 2: We're not talking about American trombones here. It is a
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: National bake Week.
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  Speaker 1: Not National bake Off Week, although that would be fun.
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  Speaker 2: I would love that.
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  Speaker 1: It is National Dental Hygienist Week. It seems very important.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, keep teeth clean. It's also National Oral, Head and
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Neck Cancer Awareness Week, so lots of stuff going on there.
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  Speaker 2: Protect yourself, don't.
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  Speaker 3: Get those cancers.
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  Speaker 2: Nope.
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  Speaker 1: National Robotics Week is our last one.
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  Speaker 2: And to celebrate National Robotics Week. At the time of
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  Speaker 2: this recording, Elon Musk's self made AI is actively and
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  Speaker 2: openly rebelling against him on social media platforms. So that's
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  Speaker 2: pretty great to watch.
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  Speaker 1: Love Okay, Yeah, Well, we don't only talk about holidays,
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  Speaker 1: although that is something that we do on a regular basis.
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  Speaker 1: We just incorporate that as a fun little nugget of
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  Speaker 1: interest into our discussions. But we're not talking about those
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  Speaker 1: right now anymore. We're done for this part. That part
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  Speaker 1: of the episode is closed now. Yes, as we mentioned,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about massage, and we're talking about massage like
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: you think of as massage, like the word massage. It
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  Speaker 1: is an interesting it is an interesting behavior that we
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  Speaker 1: engage in as a species that seems at the same
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  Speaker 1: time both animalistic and sophisticated. And what I mean by
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  Speaker 1: that is it's this raw physical contact that doesn't really
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  Speaker 1: need to have any particular technology with it, right, Like
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: anybody could do this in any space, while it simultaneously
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  Speaker 1: is kind of unique to humans, like few animals massage
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  Speaker 1: each other the way that is, in a way that's
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  Speaker 1: analogous to humans. We'll talk more about that. It's like
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  Speaker 1: a human technological invention that doesn't require much in the
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  Speaker 1: way of technology, right, You see what I'm.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Saying, right, Yes, yeah, exactly. The thing about massage too,
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  Speaker 2: is that there's a lot of chatter. There's a lot
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  Speaker 2: made about the benefits of massage, both physical mental, lots
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  Speaker 2: of benefits from going to get a massage. So we're
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  Speaker 2: going to kind of unpack what the real effect of
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  Speaker 2: massage is, both on the patient and on the messuse.
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  Speaker 2: We're going to talk about where this can go wrong
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  Speaker 2: and if there is a comparative non human animal analog
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  Speaker 2: when it comes to this idea of massage, massage, therapy, massage, engagement.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, okay, so we've used the word massage plenty of times.
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  Speaker 1: I think we can safely assume that if you're listening
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  Speaker 1: to this, then you have a command of the English
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  Speaker 1: language strong enough that you know that word. Nevertheless, we
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  Speaker 1: find it helpful to define our terms upfront. So massage
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  Speaker 1: is rubbing or applying pressure to someone's body in a
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  Speaker 1: way that moves, stretches, or otherwise manipulates joints or muscles. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: and you could act you can massage yourself. So this
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  Speaker 1: could be self applied, and it often looks like another
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  Speaker 1: person doing this, someone doing it to another person, but
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  Speaker 1: it can be self inflicted. And massage, of course can
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  Speaker 1: also mean to manipulate to get more desirable results as
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  Speaker 1: into massage the data. We're talking about the first one today,
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  Speaker 1: which is the physical touch applied from one person to themselves,
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  Speaker 1: or one person to another, or maybe multiple people. I
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  Speaker 1: suppose you could have multiple people doing a massage train
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  Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, the second one is interesting in its
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  Speaker 1: own rights, the whole massaging of data. But as I said,
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  Speaker 1: we're talking about the massage as it relates to rubbing
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  Speaker 1: a person in a way that moves muscles and skin
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  Speaker 1: and stuff around.
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  Speaker 2: Right. In most definitions that we had for this episode
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  Speaker 2: or that we saw included rubbing the muscles as part
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  Speaker 2: of the definition. But of course we aren't rubbing the muscles.
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  Speaker 2: We're rubbing the skin that covers the muscles. Just to
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  Speaker 2: be overly pedantic and annoying about it, we just want
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  Speaker 2: to be really clear that, like, we're not actually rubbing muscles,
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  Speaker 2: we're rubbing the skin above it.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, the muscles do move as an outcome of us
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  Speaker 1: pushing on the skin. Yeah, but if you directly rubbed
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  Speaker 1: the muscles, I imagine that would be excruciatingly painful because
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  Speaker 1: there would be exposed nerves.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and also kind of gross. So yeah, don't do that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a gross it's a gross image, it's
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  Speaker 1: a gross thought. Don't don't do those things.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we're already soft bags of bones, so
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  Speaker 2: like just be Basically, what we're saying is keep your
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  Speaker 2: skin on.
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  Speaker 1: It's all we're saying, in case, in case there was
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  Speaker 1: an option where that might come.
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  Speaker 2: Off, just to keep it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, please do.
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  Speaker 1: So all right, history of massage. Massage as a practice
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  Speaker 1: is all, and it is so technologically simple. It's probably
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  Speaker 1: older than we actually even have records for sure, but
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  Speaker 1: records that we do have date back to three thousand
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  Speaker 1: BCE in China and India, also twenty five hundred BCE
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  Speaker 1: in ancient Egypt. But again, like people may have figured
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  Speaker 1: out that they enjoy having their backs and feet rubbed
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  Speaker 1: way before they were writing records of anything. Hard to
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  Speaker 1: imagine that that had not been figured out in some
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  Speaker 1: way prior to that being written down. In particular, thinking
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  Speaker 1: about like we as a species tend to form couples,
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  Speaker 1: like romantic couples, and like that part of that being
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  Speaker 1: in a couple could involve that sort of like social
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  Speaker 1: grooming type stuff. So I think this is probably something
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  Speaker 1: humans have been doing as long as they've been doing
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  Speaker 1: most human things.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, it stands the reason. I think, like we
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  Speaker 2: probably figured out massage before we figured out how to
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  Speaker 2: record that we were doing something right. That makes perfect sense. Right, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: So today the massage industry has blossomed into an eighteen
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  Speaker 2: billion dollar annual industry, which is a lot of money
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  Speaker 2: for stuff, particularly estimated. Yeah, so it could be more,
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  Speaker 2: could be less, but it's still a lot of money.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, I think both of us have talked
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  Speaker 2: about this a little bit, but we have had some
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: experience with massage being usually the massage, not the massuse themselves,
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  Speaker 2: I would imagine, But like I've also I like the massage.
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  Speaker 2: I like to do that and get because it helps
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  Speaker 2: with my hands and keeps my hands limber and strong. Sure,
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  Speaker 2: when I think about my experience with massage, I often
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  Speaker 2: think of how I overthink it, and you know, like
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  Speaker 2: where I'm in a room and I'm in my underwear
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  Speaker 2: with a stranger. Yeah, that's the way that I kind
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: of like picture it, and I'm like, this seems this
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: seems like in any other social context would be a problem, right,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: you know, Doctors, if I did a dentist to be
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: a problem, but at a messuse it's perfectly fine. But
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  Speaker 2: I really enjoy massage, like I find that I feel
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: very relaxed afterwards. I feel that there have been times
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: where I've fallen asleep on a massage table because I
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: have been like so tired that I didn't realize I
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: was so tired until I laid down and I was like, Okay,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna sleep now. I will say, though,
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  Speaker 2: every time I've gone to like the same place to
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: get a massage, my massage experience has been different because
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  Speaker 2: either I have a different messuse or they like to
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: incorporate something different or exciting into the massage space, like
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: hot rocks, and I'm just kind of like, so something happened,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, like it'll like something will be introduced
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: where I'm like, oh, okay, that's that's a new thing. Sure,
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  Speaker 2: why not and just see how it goes, you know. So,
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  Speaker 2: But I've I've been going to get massages since I
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: was probably in my early twenty and I love it nice.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: I could probably count on my two hands how many
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: massages I've ever had professional massages, at least the number
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  Speaker 1: outside of that is not a lot larger, right, I
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: would need one more hand, but I'll use my toes
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: or something. But yeah, so I've I've not gotten a
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  Speaker 1: whole lot of them. I didn't think initially it was
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: going to be something that I enjoyed. And the first
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: one I went to maybe it was the best one
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: I've been to. There's been some great ones, but it
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  Speaker 1: was a really lovely experience and as you said, so relaxing.
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  Speaker 1: It's like there are times I'm like, am I awake?
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: It feels like I was awake the whole time, But
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: now that I'm thinking back on it, there may have
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: been points where I was not awake, right, right, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it feels good. It's very relaxing. I've also had the
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: hot rocks, which which was fun. I don't do a
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  Speaker 1: lot of like.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: Any of the others.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I've never done deep tissue. I actually with me, I
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I really prefer a very
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: very light pressure. I'm like, I do not need to
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm on the verge of injury, having my
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: muscles torn apart and my bones broken. Like just a
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: little pressure is good for me.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I like moderate pressure. I don't like feeling like I'm
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: like because if I feel like I'm about to be
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: in pain, like I feel like a tense up.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I have like a.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Moderate pressure, and I think part of that is because
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I just have like old injuries that like it just
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: feels good to like rub out those knots or whatever
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: it might be. Like, you know, I kind of have
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that experience of just like like I prefer modern and
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: also partly too, because like I'm a pretty big dude,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: so like, I like I do appreciate just like uh
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: like feeling like somebody's actually putting pressure on me versus
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: like you know, because a lot of them, like the massurs,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: the messuses, the messuse. I a lot of the folks
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: that I go to are much smaller than me, so
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: like it feels like a lot of times where if
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: there is too much pressure, it feels like small pinpoints.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: But if there's not enough pressure, it doesn't feel like
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: they're touching me at all.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: I got you.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not unlike massaging ads into an episode. All right,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: we're brack, We're brack. We're back. We've been talking a
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: little bit about the history of massage or experiences with massage,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: but it's it's at the point right now where we
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: can transition to sort of what benefits are there for massage.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: We've sort of claimed some already. This practice claims a
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: wide range of possible benefits across many conditions, ranging from
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: things as simple as boredom to having benefits for pregnancy,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: helping gain or maintain sobriety, improving sleep, reducing stress, and
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: many many others. What we're going to do, though, is
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: we're going to take a look at these benefits. We're
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: going to discuss what we can understand about the physical
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: and mental nature of massage and how it works, and
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: also provides some critiquing here. You know, there are benefits
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: that are made that do not have scientific backing and
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: others that do. So we want to understand sort of
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: the stakes here. We want to understand what's going on.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: So let's dive into it. What are the claims here
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and what is the evidence in favor of or against
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: those claims.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about this for a second. So the
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: overwhelming majority of claims about the benefit of massage include
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: reduction and stress and increase in relaxation, which we've kind
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: of even anecdotally highlighted here, right. Yeah, the mechanisms by
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: which this is accomplished are unclear, but the writers on
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: the topic suggest that massage lowers cortisol, a hormone associated
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: with stress, which you know, the cause and effective relationship
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: here is a little bit murky. It lowers blood pressure,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: it will trigger the release of oxytocin, will reduce pain
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: and inflammation, and there's a therapeutic relationship to the masseuse
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: who can listen to your needs and concerns. I've actually,
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: just as a side note, I've never had that issue
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: where I have been expressing my needs and concerns. It's
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: always been the opposite where my masseuse has given I've
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: been the therapist for the messuse while they're massaging. So
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: that's that's happened on more than one occasion, Okay, And
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: so it's been it's been really fascinating. But there are
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: actually other claims that aren't really worth elaborating on, so
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: like we'll just kind of focus on these ones, which
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: is lower blood pressure, reduce stress, release of oxytocin, reduction
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: of pain, reduction of inflammation, and that therapeutic relationship.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: And I think just really quickly on oxytocin, I think
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: people have probably heard of this. This is a hormone
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: it is associated with. Again, the cause effective relationship here
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: is unclear, but it's associated with this idea of sort
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: of social bonding. They sometimes will colloquially refer to it
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: as the love hormone, although that's not very accurate or precise.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Sure it is the hormone. Like this is when a
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: mother first meets her newborn baby. There's like explosion of oxytocin.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So there is this sense of it being involved in
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: social bonding stuff. So just important to point that out here, right.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: One thing here, we're talking about this massage system here
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: and how it lowers stress and increases relaxation. Most massage
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: environments they're designed to have this sort of light, pleasant
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: aroma in the air. You can tell that it's there,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: but it's not overpowering.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: You're in a.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Comfortable bed, there's quiet, calm, soothing music playing over the speakers.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: The lights are usually dimmed very very low, and all
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: of this is pretty likely to create an atmosphere of
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: relaxation that's pretty intuitively not stressful. Right, So I think
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: that those are going to be some of the ingredients
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: that facilitate massage. I actually saw like at the mall.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Here there was like a massage place where they didn't
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: even have walls. They just had tables set up. It
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: was almost like it was it was like in a
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: store space, but there weren't there wasn't it wasn't even glass,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Like you just walk into the space and there's massage tables.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: I was like that feels like the sound of the
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: crowd and the smell of the crowd are like things
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: you feel like you'd want to control for YEA to
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: have an enjoyable massage experience.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but maybe I don't know. What do I know?
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: People were there, so they were getting something out of it.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you know, everybody's got their thing, you know.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's maybe that's relaxing for them, is walking around
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: them all and resting like that. Who knows, sure everybody's
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: got their stuff, you know. So it's unclear if anyone
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: has done research to compare simply lying in a room
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: with these features versus a massage in that crowded, busy
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: place with those unpleasant sounds and odors to determine if
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: the active ingredient is going to be the massage itself
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: or the context and all that stuff, Like, we don't
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: really know what promotes relaxation and stress reduction in those spaces.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: It's more likely that a combination of those ingredients might
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: be doing that if at all.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, So, yeah, you have a relaxation here, and
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: like that's gonna come with things like lower blood pressure.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Like just basically your blood pressure is fluctuating constantly, but
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: if you do get into a nice relaxed state, that
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: should help just lower blood pressure overall. If you're someone
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: who chronically has high blood pressure, do not depend on this.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Like then this might help, but like the moment you're
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: like back in your car driving home or whatever, or
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: however you get home, bus train, walking, like it'll pretty
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: much return to a spaceline. So like this could be
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: a fun way to temporarily lower your blood pressure, but
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: you're gonna need to see a doctor about that sort
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: of thing, right, Yeah, So like there's that part. The
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: final wrap up here on this particular thing is like
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: massage feels good. Like most people who go to a massage,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: they do report lower levels of stress, they do report
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: greater relaxation and in a general sense of well being
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: after they've received these massages. So like whether or not
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: there's exactly controlled research that speaks to what are the
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: active like, what are the relevant variables and elements of
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: a massage that are going to have the outcome of
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: feeling low stress and high relaxation. Unclear. It seems like
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: there's probably all of those things together play a role.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: But you know, massage feels good, and maybe it's possible
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: that like it doesn't matter what the environments like when
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: you have a massage, although I imagine that it does.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so I think that's just a thing to
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: understand about this right now.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: In a twenty eighteen review study by Rapidport and colleagues,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: they summarize several studies on the benefits of massage, and
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: in addition to lowering stress, they reported that benefits may
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: also include reduction and anxiety more broadly, and even reduction
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: and symptoms of depression, and it might improve sleep. Now,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: well we can kind of unpack that a little bit.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, those do seem like bolder claims. And
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: to be fair, I was looking at this, this seems
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: to be a group the authors here seem to be
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: a group of a very pro massage people. They're publishing
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: in a very pro massage journal called Massage Therapy for
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Psychiatric Disorders, and with a title like that, their agenda
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: is pretty blatantly and unapologetically biased, like they're only looking
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: at things that already confirm the things that they believe,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: right right, and so difficult to tell, like are we
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: getting the best information here? But that was a review
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: that was published there or where. That was what they
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: sort of found was this idea of lower stress, less anxiety,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: possibly less depression. At least the people who were paying
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: themselves to do this research found that right right right now.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: A separate study done by Moeller, Erlinghausen and Eggert. I
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: feel like it did pretty good on that one you did.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I was specifically set you up. I was like, I
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: was hoping that you were going to get this point.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: So you have to read that name. I was like,
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: I was interested to see how this goes.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you did really well though. Thank you. I
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: appreciate that. So. Moller, erling Housing and Eggert in twenty
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: twenty published in the journal Brain Sciences a critique of
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: the literature massage, noting that there seems to be little
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: research that has any sort of high quality scientific evidence. Now,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I think studies like this are really important because typically
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: studies like this will really get into like they'll start
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: looking at the design of experiments, scientific rigor. They'll look
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: at like the significance of the outcomes and in all
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: of those things. And so you know, while this is
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: only one study that does that, it is important to
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: note that there is a study that does critique the
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: scientific rigor of in the evidence of these types of studies.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: That's exactly it, Yeah, is that they they look at
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: this and they're like, look, you might have something here,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: but if you don't design your study in a way
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: that's going to capture it, then we can't trust the
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: outcomes of this. Like you've got to have double blind
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: you've got to have placebos, you've got to have control.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: At the very.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Least, you've got to have scientific control. Right, you need
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: to be doing good quantitative analyzes, like what measures can
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: you look Like blood pressure is something you can directly measure,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: whether or not someone's asleep is something you can get
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: a pretty strong objective measure of, Like there are a
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: lot of things that you can get some good objective
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: data to support this thing. So it's they're like, just
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: do the research, Like we think there's probably something here.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: And the problem is many studies are just qualitative. They
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: just have sort of reports of this was good, and
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: they simply seek to value they're already chosen opinions rather
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: than attempt to understand how it works and what the
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: appropriate like dosage might be. So let's just if massage
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: does help with stress, and it seems like it does.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: How much do you need Do you need to have
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: an hour? Does it need to be two hours, Does
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: it only need to be fifteen minutes? Does it have
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: to be a person could it be like in one
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: of those massage chairs. How often do you need to
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: receive this? Is every day? Is it once a week?
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Is it once a month? Is it once a year?
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: How what level of training is required to ensure that
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the person who's administering the massage can do it with
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: the fidelity and integrity that it will have that therapeutic effect.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: How do you know who will benefit the most from
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: a massage and what type of massage? If you're claiming that,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: like massage helps with sleep, like, what about someone who
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: has narcolepsi? We need They probably don't want to be
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: falling asleep any more often? Like figure out like who
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: you're on answers for, and like what different types of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: massage will yield what types of benefits? And you only
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: get that by doing good, high controlled scientific studies.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: So Abraham just posed a bunch of questions. We are
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: going to answer none of those questions right after this ad.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: All right, we're back. We asked a bunch of questions.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: Mostly what the questions we asked were questions raised by
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: that study, the Mueller, Oilinghausen, and Eggert review that they published.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: That they essentially were asking or suggesting, like, here are
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: things that we would want to know, and so like,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: do good studies to sort of help understand these these things,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: like help us understand dosage and titration and stuff like that.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Right, So, one of the claims that comes up a
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: lot with massage is the use of massage for pain reduction.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: So of course the type of pain and the causes
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: are important to note. So you know, if we're talking
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: about muscular injuries, then rubbing the injury might not necessarily
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: produce good outcomes, like it might actually exacerbate that. Or
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: if it's nerve injuries, then massage might not actually be
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: able to accomplish what those you know, those the type
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: of outcomes are talking about. But we can kind of
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: unpack that a little bit massaging a bruise or a
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: skin lesion is not only ill advised, but actually may
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: worsen the condition in some situations. Like I know that
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I've gone into a massage parlor with like, let me say,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: like not necessarily like like acute injuries, maybe more like
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: chronic injuries or like long lasting injuries. So dealing with
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: chronic injuries might be a little bit different acute injuries.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I don't want somebody rubbing like a sprained like a
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: sprained ligament or something like that. I think that's going
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: to probably be pretty painful and not at all useful
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: for what I'm trying to accomplish there.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Or like an open cut on your body, like just yeah,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: pushing on it, like oh my god, Like that's also unhygienic,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: so don't Yeah, So yeah, like not all pain, but
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: as you said, maybe chronic pain. There does seem to
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: be some systematic research that I was able to find
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: here that like pain specifically from osteoarthritis in this case
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: of the knee and some shoulder pain. In this study
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I was looking, I found a lot of review studies,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: which was super helpful.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Love those.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this is another one looking at this,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: so the shoulder pain and osteoarthritis of the knee. They
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: saw that there was some significant reductions in pain through massage.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: This is a twenty fifteen review study in the Journal
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: of Physiotherapy. They looked at twenty six eligible randomized trial
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: with over twenty five hundred participants, which is a pretty
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: good number if you're going to do some new analyzes
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: on that, and they found that massage was more effective
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: than no treatment at all.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: However, they also reported it was not significantly better than
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: other similar or more rigorous treatments. So it was like
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: it's better than nothing, it's not as good as medicine.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: All that is to say, like there is there seems
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: to be legitimate evidence and legitimate reason to believe that
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: you could use this for some pain reduction. Also consider that,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: like there are other things that you could be doing too,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: and so like this is not the only way to
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: get there. Maybe it's an and and not an ore.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: That I think was an important takeaway from their sort
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: of aggregation of the data.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And speaking of
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: shoulder pains, So when I when I had to go,
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: I was prescribed massage therapy for a shoulder injury that
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: I had from a car accident. And I and we
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: were talking about this before the show started. But like
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I had to go three times a week for an
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: hour in each session it was from my left shoulder,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: and my shoulder always felt better when I was done, sure,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: like I always felt good, I felt relaxed. But I
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: think it's really important to note that, like it didn't
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: cure anything, because I still feel a little bit of
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: like the injury from when that happened. Yeah, you know,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: So it's like one of those things where it's like
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the injury or the lasting effects have still persisted despite
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: the fact that I went for six months and received
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: massage therapy. At that time, it probably would have been
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: better to go to like maybe some strength training, maybe
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: gotten some evaluations on like nerve damage that might have
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: occurred that might be long lasting and stuff like that. Yeah,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: And I was never I was never told to do
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: that through my auto insurance. My auto insurance dictated that
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: I had to go get massage therapy.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Why why is car insurance pain for massage, right,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: it's likely to have you feel good and not have
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: them have to pay for like a doctor, a physical
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: therapist or something. Right, exactly to your point, I think
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: that it's possible that you would have had worse, longer
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: lasting effects without the massage. Who knows, you might have
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: also had better outcomes had you at least added physical
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: therapy to the massage. Right, So yeah, I complete, Yeah,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: that all that makes a lot of sense to me.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Fun stuff. So a twenty seventeen study and Rehabilitation Sciences
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: by Gasabat and Tiwelli found that there was mixed results
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: as massage pertains to sports performance, recovery from injuries, or
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: prevention against injuries, meaning it was unclear if there was
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: an effect. We don't really know if there was any
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: sort of like meaningful or useful effect in these spaces.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Yes, although it's kind of interesting. The study did give
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: some insights as to how massage might work to provide
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: therapeutic benefits, and so they were sort of trying to
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: understand if this does have an effect, how does that
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: effect play out? And so they noted four effects here
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: that could result in therapeutic benefit. A biomechanical effect, neurological effect,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: physiological effect, and psychological effect. And for the biomechanical effect,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: they sort of stated here that massage might help modify
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: tissue adhesion and muscle tendon compliance, potentially leading to improved
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: joint motion and reduced stiffness. So again the results are mixed,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: but that did mean that like probably some people reported
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: at least feeling some benefit, and if they did, then
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: that might have been might have been one of the
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: ways that that played out, which actually that feels like
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: a reasonable hypothesis to like test right now.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: As far as neurological effects, they made the note that
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: massage might actually influenced nerve organ excitability through mechanical pressure
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: on muscles, potentially altering h reflex measurements. So basically just
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: kind of like getting all those nerves like riled up,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: and especially when it comes to like kind of pushing
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: and pressing and rubbing on those those muscle tissues.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, Relatedly, here we have the physiological effects, which in
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: this discussion here they explain how massage may promote parasympathetic activity,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: which can be measured by changes in heart rate, blood pressure,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: and the hormonal levels and things such as we've mentioned
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: like cortisol indicating some relaxation responses. So essentially they're arguing
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: here that these are objective, measurable outcomes that we could
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: look at that give us a physiological analogy to help
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: understand how and to what extent massage is providing therapeutic benefit.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Right, and then the psychological effects. The authors noted that
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: massage can decrease anxiety and improve mood states, contributing to
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: overall relaxed and mental health. Now, again, I think it's
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: one of those conversations that we have to have where
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: it's is it massage or is it something else entirely,
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: or is it a combination of things that are that
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: are in that context that make that a more effective
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: kind of treatment.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: We don't have any qualms with the idea that massage
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: could be a useful supplement to help aid in like
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: some of these things, because it does seem, as we said,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: like there are there do seem to be benefits that
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: are pretty objectively measurable, but we don't want to overstate
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: the claims too much. We're about to get to some
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: of those. I was really interested in to what extent
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: there is an effect on the massage giver, the messuse right,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: and so I searched around. I only found one study
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: and it was in like the worst place, meaning that
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: it was a it was a twitter nonsense No, that
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: would be even worse. It was a nonsense journal here,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: and so I'm not even going to give them the
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: time of day. But what I will say is that
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: they did suggest I did. I found it, like sited
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: multiple places, but I only found one study on this.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: They suggested that the massage giver may have some benefits
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: similar to some of the benefits of the receiver, which
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: is that they also might get the sort of release
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: of oxytocin, they might have less cortisolus of the stress hormones.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: I was unable to find more corroborating evidence here, but
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: they gave a very scientific appearing explanation and demonstration of
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: their measurement tools. So like it wasn't the worst thing
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: I've ever seen, but it does make some amount of
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: sense to me, because like, when you're putting pressure on
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: someone else, you are inherently getting pressure put back on yourself.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Right now, when you're putting pressure on someone else, you're
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: doing it two very specific body parts, and when you're
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: in you are getting it back on your hands and
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: maybe elbows and stuff, So like, is it that the
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: location of this massage is really important? Is it how
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: the massage is received? Because in a way the massus
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: is getting massaged like reciprocally by the person's back right
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: or by their feet or whatever. They're getting it on
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: their hands, and it does seem like there is maybe
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: benefit here, but again, the evidence could be a lot better.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Right. Beyond all this, though, claims start to wander into
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: highly suspect territory. They start to wander in places where,
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: despite having you know, plausible and tangible benefits, massage exists
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: alongside a wide range of complimentary and alternative medicines or
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: cams that range from questionable to actively dangerous, and these
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: pseudosciences gleefully claim massage as part of their ranks, likely
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: because it might be one of the only things in
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: this area that might actually work, one of the things
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: that does also fall into pseudo scientific claims and kind
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: of in that world of kind of dangerous or you know,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: maybe like unsavory spaces as ads.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're back, so we're you're starting now to veer
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: into the less supported claims made by big proponents of massage,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: and so they start to make these silly and even
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: sort of disastrously incorrect claims about what massage is capable.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Of several sources that I found suggested that massage can
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: eliminate toxins from your body. Don't know what that means.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: I think it sounds like one of those things where
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: you hear those words and you're like, oh good, that
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: sounds really good. I'm like, how do you know that
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: you're eliminating toxins? Why would massage do that thing? How
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: do the toxins get there in the first place? Where
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: are they eliminated from? Are you excreting them out of
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: your skin?
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Right? Like?
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: What's going on? Like? What is a toxin?
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: So like, there's like a lot of unknowns about that claim,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: but nevertheless there's that claim. They also claim that it's
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: useful at supporting treatment for chronic illness and disease. And
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: this is where my skeptical red flags are way up
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: the details of their arguments around the issue of pain
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: causing stress, which exacerbates pain, and it's just the cycle, right,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: It's just like pain leads to stress, leads to more pain,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: leads to more stress, et cetera. And that massage is
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: a way to kind of break that cycle. Okay, maybe,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: like I feel like there's some things in there that
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: are like, just because you've gotten rid of the stress
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean you've necessarily done anything to the pain, And
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: whether or not stress actually exacerbates the pain is not
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: super clear. It's actually possible that, like we said, the
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: cause effect relationship with cortisol is one that's unclear, Like
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: maybe cortisol actually is our body's way of trying to
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: cope with the stress that we're experiencing, right, and that
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: when we lower levels of it, that the levels just
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: are an indicator that our stress is going down because
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: we don't need as much of it. It's like that
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: part needs to be done more. We've only taken this
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: one side of an approach without necessarily understanding how those
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: variables really work. But anyway, story short, here they make
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: this claim it's possible that massage helps with pain. We've
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: seen that, But like chronic illness and disease, they don't
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: shy away from the idea that massage itself may play
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: a curative role in the treatment of actual disease. Like
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: you've got a cold, go get a massage. And your
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: cold to go away.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: It doesn't.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: It doesn't work like that, by the way, right, and
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: the other thing like that. This is a classic blame
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: the victim move that is endemic to the complementary and
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: alternative medicine world. It's the like, one of the things
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: they say about this that I find very upsetting and
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: offensive is they're like, well, you'll have the wherewithal to
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: like manage your problems on your own. And essentially what
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: they're saying is like, you are at fault for this
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: illness because you're stressed and because of all the like
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: you're handling this wrong. You need to come to us.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: We will help you feel better about this, and then
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: you'll be able to like take proactive measures. And it's
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: it's there's a lot of this is like the like
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: they specifically say, like, you'll have a more positive attitude
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: that will help you cure your disease. I'm like, a
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: positive attitude has never cured cancer. People have claimed that
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: it never has, right, I never will. Like that doesn't
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: make any sense. That's not how cancer works, that's not
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: how medicine works. That just means that what you're saying
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: is like people who do die of cancer, didn't want
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: to live bad enough, And I'm like, that's so.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Dub Yeah, that's pretty brutal.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: That's not okay.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: So we're not going to go around accusing people of
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: like not being in a good enough mood and that's
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: the reason that they're sick, because that's nonsense and it's
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: doesn't make it.
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: It doesn't work like that.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I wanted to throw that out there, that
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: that was a claim that was made that I really
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: was upsetting to see this more of.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: This sort of blame the victim thing that they do sometimes.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, I think it's probably important here to be
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: really clear. This is not every massage therapist or masseuse
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: that's out there that that supports the same like, so
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: we don't want to like kind of like take the
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: entire field to task. It's one of those things where
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: it's like, you know, you might have somebody who just
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: kind of gets looped into a group they don't want
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: to be. It's like almost like they get guilty by
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: association because this group has adopted them, and they're like, no,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: we don't want anything to do with this because we
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: don't subscribe to this. Yeah, this group's particular mindset, like
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: as a perfect example of this. Right, like some people,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: some groups went so far as to suggest that massage
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: therapy or massage in general could be an effective treatment
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: against AIDS. Now, that's first of all, that's not how
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: that's not how the disease works, right, That's not how
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: this works. So A skeptical post criticizes specifically a controversial
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: study on forty eight Dominican children with untreated HIV AIDS
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: ages two to eight, who are either given massage therapy
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: or play therapy twice weekly for twelve weeks. The study
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: claimed improvements and self help abilities, communication, and a reduction
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: and depressive behaviors and older children from the massage group. However,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: the text of the study presented a more nuanced narrative
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: with complex results in minor editorial errors, raising concerns about
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: the studies validity.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: And the studies rationale was unclear, like they were posting
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: unproven benefits of massage on immune function and psychological outcomes.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: The methods described involved subjective caregiver reports, which are that's
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: not a good measure of like how age is progressing,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: which really raised doubts about the objectivity of the data
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: at all. I mean, and that's I think putting it
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: very gently raised doubts. I'd be like, oh, so that's wrong,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: would be like my reaction to it. And the results
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: were mixed, as we said, like it wasn't even clear.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: There were some statistically insignificant improvements reported as significant and
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: in the findings here were just not compelling, and like,
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: I think probably what happened is get you get random variability,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: and then you try and spin that as things worked
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: the way we wanted them to.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Right, as causal, and it's not even it's it's not there. Yeah.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: The discussion section of the study appeared biased, emphasizing potential
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: positives of massage therapy while ignoring its ineffectiveness and improving
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: crucial health outcomes. The post criticized the ethicality of the study,
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: questioning the morality of using massage instead of providing life
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: saving antiretroviral drugs proven effective medicine right like we know
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: that it works, highlighting a potential neglect of the children's
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: critical health needs and just some real significant concerns with
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: the whoever approved this study as like a you know,
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: as like an ethical type of study.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: So overall, the authors here, they expressed dismay that the
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: study focused on marginal benefits of massage over and instead
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: of essential medical treatment, suggesting that resources could have been
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: better spent by providing necessary medical care to these kids,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: which yeah, of course, yeah, and so the studies implications
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: and the and the ethical considerations of prioritizing research over
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: direct life saving interventions, Like that's another reason you don't
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: choose vulnerable populations to do like untested, experimental, like hypothetically
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: unvalidated things, though, like like maybe this could work. Putatively
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: it could work, but like and even then, like I
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: would say, no, it couldn't, Like there's no mechanism here
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: that this could have had any beneficial effect whatsoever on
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: their AIDS. It could have had them feel better, Like
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: they could have just been like made more comfortable going
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: through the situation that's very uncomfortable. This was not a
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: treatment or cure or in any way alleviated the problem
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: that they were actually facing, which was AIDS. Right.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I think you're kind of foreshadowing like maybe one of
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: the take home points of this, of this entire talk too,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: So we'll get to that more as we go. But yeah,
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: it's it's it's frustrating because it's you know, in situations
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: like this, the most valuable resource that we have is time.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: And if we waste time on procedures that don't make
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: any sort of sense, or like any sort of like
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: any any sort of treatment that doesn't make any sense
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: when we know that there is a valid, active and
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: effective treatment available, like, it's just ends up being a
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: waste of time for everybody involved, and we can't get
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: that time back, which could be crucial time that that
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: treatment could have been implemented.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely so.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Interestingly, the groups that license and regulate massage seemed to
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: be actively avoiding scientific scrutiny and even censoring internal critics.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: So we found a story of a person who worked
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: in the massage industry for years but became embraled and
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: in a quote unquote investigation by the administrative powers the
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: powers that be, I should say, when he started posting
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: criticisms of the pseudoscientific angles taken by many of the
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: massage in the massage space, they were concerned with the
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: author's tone and criticized him as quote unprofessional in his
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: criticisms that man that sounds familiar right now and behavior analysis,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: And eventually he left his profession due to his interactions
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: with the group. So he finally just was like, this
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: field is you know, I am I have some concerns,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: I have some questions. I'm questioning the answer here, and
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: ended up leaving the field entirely because there were too
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: many things happening, too many other contingencies that were preventing
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: him from actually questioning what was going on in any
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: sort of like academic way.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I mean essentially they were like, you know, stop, like
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: you can't say this stuff like it's harming our business
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: model is essentially where like that's not what they ever
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: actually said, but that was sort of the message that
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: was conveyed through their actions, sure and through their censoring
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: of him. And I do think that that speaks to
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: like there are there are people out doing massage who
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: are like good skeptical people who like just they like massages.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: They like giving massages. They feel like there is some
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: benefit in the stress reduction and relaxation aspect to massages
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: on their registered nurses who go out and they will
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: works as massage therapists. Like there are plenty out here
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: that are doing like good work, and there just seems
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: to be this like this sort of pervasive ethos of
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: like avoiding scientific scrutiny. And I actually think that this
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: is this is to their detriment, given that there are
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: likely some very real benefits, you would think that they
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: would be motivated to try and get like the best
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: possible science on their side to investigate their practices, because
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: a strong scientific basis of support might even facilitate or
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: even mandate like things like insurance coverage for massage, which
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: would greatly expand the market and like secure the demand
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: for that type of service, and so like, I feel
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: like it's lucrative for them to want science to be
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: on their side. I think what the problem is is
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: there are too many people embedded at higher levels who
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: are firmly embedded in sort of the complementary and alternative
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: medicine world that they see science as the bad guy
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: and that they're like good science says that we're right,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: and bad science says that we're wrong. Is sort of
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: the message that they convey. I mean, it's really unfortunate
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: because like I'm like, honestly, like, you probably have something
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: legitimate here that like we could learn how this works
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: and why it works and how to do it even
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: better than we're currently doing. It right, and like you,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: you probably would make more money if you had that
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: as your angle instead rather than being wrapped up in
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: like all this other wu which is I think again
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: it's to the detriment of the people who are the consumers.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Here, absolutely, absolutely, and.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Also adds to the detriment of the consumers too.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: So you might go to a massage therapist and you
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: might think, ah, this will be nice and easy and relaxing,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: and there are this is pretty low risk overall, it's
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: a low risk activity. What could go wrong? Well, there
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: are a couple things. Let's go ahead and maybe talk
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: about that a little bit. Massage sometimes gets lumped in
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: with the chiropractic interventions or the chiropractic space, which is
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: an alarming indictment for both massage and chiropractics. Some practices
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: include spinal manipulation and manipulation which has caused blood clots,
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: pulmonary embolism, stroke, permanent injury, and even death in some situation.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is not a thing you like want to
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: mess around with. So right, don't right would be my
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: suggestion there. I mean, I think people will hear this
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: and they'll say, like, you know, medical doctors make critical
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: fatal mistakes too. I'm like, yes, that absolutely does happen.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: There are boards to regulate and discipline those actions when
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: they happen. There are also boards to help protect and
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: bury those things when they happen. So I think there
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: is a complex space in there, But I do think
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: that generally speaking, the medical field is like those things
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: happen when mistakes are made or when something unpredicted happens,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: and for the most part, they've put in a lot
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: of policies, procedures, and safeguards to prevent those from happening. Yeah,
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: And in the holistic sort of space here that we're
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: seeing where you have a chiropractor who's also a massuit
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: or vice versa, they're instead sort of like it's hard
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: to say their mistakes or there are their mistakes. Like there,
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: it's almost a feature and not a bug that they're like,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: we're gonna do this highly risky activity with no known
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: actual benefit because we think it's probably gonna do something right.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no, just leave lemanneck in my spine alone.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, please don't mess with my spine.
• 47:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: So anyway, a post on painscience dot Com argued that
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: massage and in particular, deep tissue massage can like we
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: just have to be careful with it. It can exacerbate
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: existing injuries, it could even cause new injuries. It can
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: lead to lingering soreness for about ten percent of patients,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: so it'll last for days after the massage. They even
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: cite an instance in which an elderly patient had to
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: be admitted to the hospital for a hematoma caused by
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: the massage. So like, and this was specifically around deep
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: tissue massage, Like that's the thing to be considered. But
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: just we're sort of elaborating here on where there are
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: risks to pay attention to, right.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: Deep dishre missage actually came up in multiple discussions highlighting
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: the potential dangers of massage in which new injuries may arise,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: particularly when the implementer is insufficiently trained. And I mean
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the argument for any field too. I
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: think it's really important to remember that if somebody's insufficiently trained,
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: they are more likely to injure somebody in spaces where
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: there is greater risk. But I do think that you know,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: it is worth noting that, like deep tissue massage is
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: like a common discussion inside of the risks of massage
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: in general.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Other harms can include the fact that some people may
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: have an allergic reaction to the chemicals that are used
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: in some of the lotions or oils that are frequently
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: employed by massage therapists. The fact that there's also the
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: consideration that, like skin to skin contact can result in
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: the transmission of communicable diseases. You or like rubbing up
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: ball over someone, if you've got something that can be
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: transmitted that way, possible they'll get it too, Yeah, particularly
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: when you have anything like open wounds. But there are
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: also plenty of diseases that transfer just by like things
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: like sweat or just even skin contact. More broadly, so,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: like it's it is important to be aware that, like,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: that's a risk that comes with this territory.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Right. Another risk that's I think one that I hadn't
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: heard of until we started doing this episode, was that
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: people who are survivors of trauma, particularly as it relates
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: to touch from others, may experience triggering effects of touch
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: that is essential to massage. So it may not be
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: that these folks are in a space where getting a
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: massage may feel safe to them.
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: As a result of some histories that they've had.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you've suffered abuse because of other people putting
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: their hands on you, a massage table might be a
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: hard sell, like right now and maybe forever. And that's understandable.
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: So it's just again it's not a panacea. We just
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: need to consider what the relative needs of the person
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: is and what their sort of history that they're coming
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: to the table, literally coming to the table, right, a
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: massage table with So the other other concern here is
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: that some people may use massage instead of effective medical
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: interventions and treatments.
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: This is like a.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Common issue that we raise in pseudoscience spaces is that
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of them on the surface are kind of harmless,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: like carrying a crystal around with you, Like, yeah, it
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: has no benefit whatsoever, but like it doesn't hurt anything
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: to do it. If you want to have your crystal
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: around until you decide to not go see a doctor
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: because you've got a crystal in your pocket, Now we're
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: in the territory of like that's dangerous, right, And that's
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: the problem with a lot of these is like massage
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: might feel good and may even greatly improve your mood
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: with respect to a medical condition. You might feel like Okay,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: I'm more accepting of this now, or I'm more willing
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: to go through some treatment or something like that. Could
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: all be really great and all that's good, but we
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: do not treat it as a replacement for medical treatment
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: when there is a legitimate medical concern, Like that's that's
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: where we need to be careful here. It's like, it's
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: not going to cure cancer, it is not going to
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: cure AIDS. It is not going to make your flu
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: go away. It's gonna feel good, and we hope that
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: that it does and that like it has you feeling
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: just overall more relaxed and like good. I guess right,
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: But it's whatever the more synonyms for good. Well, all
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: that's great. But again, like when you actively avoid going
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: to any kind of medical treatment that you actually need,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: that's that's where we get concerned about, like what's being
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: sold here, right.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's an excellent point. Now, there are a
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: couple other interesting tid points that I think are important
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: for us to be able to to talk about this
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: when it comes to massage. One is that a lot
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: of the way that massage works is thanks to our thumbs,
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: our opposable thumbs, and if you've never listened to our
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: episodes on thumbs and how important thumbs are. You should
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: go do that. It's it's a it's a trip, or
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: maybe not, because there's sometimes massage that takes place using
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: forearms and elbows and feet and all kinds of stuff.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: But is kind of important to note that most massage,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: it seems like, occurs with the use of thumbs and
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: actions using pressure applied by the hands and thumbs.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: And that's what part of what makes it feel like
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: a human thing is, like, we've got these really good
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: thumbs for this sort of thing, But what about a beak.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: What about a talent? I don't know about a talent,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: but a beak might hurt. Yeah, And all that is
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: to say that there are actually many animals that engage
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: in grooming behaviors that in many cases do look kind
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: of similar to massage. And so they've seen this grooming
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: behavior in primates, other primates, which they also have opposable thumbs,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: so that makes sense, and horses and birds and and
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: all of these birds actually kind of surprise me. But yeah,
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: so they use their beak. They might actually press on
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: a little bit each other, which is just the cutest thing. Ever,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: and the way that they do this, that they're sort
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: of grooming each other. It's similar to and seem to
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: have somewhat similar effects as massage, which, again, this is
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: just so adorable, just fills my heart with it.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: I love that, Joy, I love that. So I guess
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: maybe at the end of the day, what we're saying
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: is and I think I think maybe this episode comes
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: off as like very anti massage. And it's certainly not
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: like if you want a massage, go get a massage, Like, yeah, yeah,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: it's wonderful, right, But if you have a serious disease, illness,
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: or injury, maybe go see a doctor or somebody who
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: is like licensed to treat that. Maybe try to read
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: out from a real doctor, Yeah, like like somebody who
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: has training in and addressing that ailment through legit scientific
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: medical research and through effective treatment before you go and
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: get something supplemental. Like there's nothing wrong with getting a massage,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: but it's not going to stand in place of some
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: type of effective medical treatment for an actual disease or
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: an actual injury or an actual ailment that you might have.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And just as you said, like I was really
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: afraid that the end of this discussion people are going
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: to walk away thinking like, never get in a massage again.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: And I really don't want that to be the message.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: I think that the message on massage here is that
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: there do seem to be some very real benefits. And
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: I think like we shouldn't even undersell necessarily how much
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: of a difference it can make for someone If stress
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: is like really something they're struggling with, if massage helps
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: take the temperature down on that a little bit, great,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: like that could make it. That could be a huge
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: game changer for someone. So like, massage can be really good.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: And I think that, like we just need better science
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: to help us see like what helps?
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Where?
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: What helps who? Like whose benefits from this? What do
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: we need to include? What do we not need to include?
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: Like what's the active ingredient here? Where can we find
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: the legitimate improvements that could be gained from this? And
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: and so like you said, like I just I I
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: just wish we could get the pseudoscience out of there,
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: like there's something good here, like let's benefit from it.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: Let's just cut away this the fluff and the nonsense
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: that doesn't need to be there and figure out what
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: parts are the most helpful for people so that they
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: can feel the best. Right, and then as we said,
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: like maybe that even becomes something that's more standard practice.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: It's just sort of an expectation. You go to get
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: a massage, and I something we didn't me but it's
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: probably worth pointing out here is that like for a
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: lot of people, this is financially off the table for them, right,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: this is seen as a privilege when it maybe is
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: something that should be seen more as a right. But like,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: until we've got good science showing us how and to
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: what extent this works, I would find a hard time
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: being able to argue that this should be a right
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: because I'm like, I can't point to very much to
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: say that, like, yeah, like look that we definitely need
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: this for these people, so like stop holding the door
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: shut against people who want to show like where there's
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: benefit here, and like let's get this into the hands
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: of more people, onto the backs of more people, right,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: you know, exactly exactly, So, yes, massage is good. We
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: think there's a lot that is missing that needs to
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: be better understood, but I do think, you know, and
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: I also don't want to undersell the fact that there's
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: probably something useful about the social bonding that comes from this.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: I think there's there's been a lot made of like
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: just doing something for another person like this, where you're
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: helping them or or healing them or just having them
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: feel better in their day can have overall positive effects.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: I'd be willing to bet there are some people who
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: go to a massage just so that they have someone
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: who will touch them because they just have so few
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: people in their lives and that's that's critical for them, right,
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Like that that could be an almost life saving in
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: the sense that like our social our need for social
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: connection is very very deep and very like primal to us,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: right and so like if that's the only way you're
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: getting any kind of social connection, then like go every day,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: like please. I hope that you find like something really
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: valuable in that. So that's another piece I think that
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: I think is worth considering how important this could all be.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: Oh most definitely Okay, I hope that we've appropriately sold
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: massage and also couched it in our concerns and skepticism
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: enough to move on to our sort of credits and recommendations.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: What do you think?
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think we nail it. Massage solved.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, great, all right, We're gonna go recommend something things.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: It's just a fun part of the show where we say, hey,
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: here's the thing you could go check out, and then
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: we sort of gush about something we're very fond of
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: for a moment. But first we need to run an ad.
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: We're back. We've been man.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ad ram page, AD page, I don't know, rad page.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: We'll get, we'll lend. That's a point I'm giving up
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: on it for now.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: First, I need to give credit where credit is due.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: As I said, if you're joining us for the first time,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: we're really happy to have you here. Hope you enjoyed
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: what you heard today. If you did, and you'd like
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: to support us, and even if you didn't, and you
• 57:40
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• 57:42
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• 57:45
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• 57:47
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• 57:50
  Speaker 1: Every time you can tell a friend. That's a huge
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: way of how podcasts get around. You can pick up
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: some merch from our merch store. We've got all kinds
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: of fun goodies there, and if you head over to
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: hereon you'll get early releases. AD free episodes and bonus
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: content and it just really helps helps us do what
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: we do and we really appreciate. And in addition, I
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: will read your name every episode at the end of
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: our discussion. And a big thanks to those people who
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: have already done that thing for us, which is Mike,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian Ashley
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: and Kiara. Thank you all so much for your continued support.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: It means everything.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, y'all are the best forever.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you to my team of people running and
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: fact checking from Shane and myself, our social media coordinator
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: as Emma Wilson, and our audio engineer, music creator and
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: sound curating maestro is Justin.
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: So thank you Justin for all your help.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, thank you so much, sir.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: And of course we would not be a show if
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: we didn't have people listening to us. I mean we
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: might be, but like, where's the fun in that? So
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: thank you all for listening. We're glad that you made
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: it here. However, you made it here, so I think
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: that that is all I have until we recommend some things.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Do you have anything else to add or anything that
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: I forgot before we recommend stuff nothing else at the moment,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: cue the music.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Recommendations.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: We're both recommending movies today. These have nothing to do
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: with massage, which is kind of the nature of recommendations.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: I'm recommending a movie called My Old Ass Great, which, Yeah,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil too much about this. I
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: think I would loosely put this in the category of
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: coming of age dramedy sort of, so there's some some drama,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: some comedy, coming of age story. It has a supernatural
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: sci fi sort of element that is that really carries
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: the plot in a really delightful way, with an overall
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: message that that I think is really really beautiful.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: And this movie was just so cute.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: It was It's just a really sweet, heartfelt sort of movie.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to spoil too much about it.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: I think if you want to go watch a trailer
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: you can. I believe it's on Netflix at the time
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: that we're recording this, so you might be able to
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: find it there. And it's also not very long. It's
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: kind of a nice, little contained story. I think it's
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: maybe an hour and a half or hour forty five maybe,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: and you just get this just nice, very wholesome tale
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: so that's my recommendation.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, I'm out of it to my
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: list because it sounded like it was a lot of fun.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I am recommending a movie that is not
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: very wholesome. And that is so why I saved years
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: for last Yeah yeah, yeah, that's I had to give
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: the title You're good, You're good, You're good. So it's
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: a movie called Whiplash, and it came out in twenty
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: fifteen or twenty fourteen, so it's an older movie. I
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: say older. It's just it's not new, is what I'm saying.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: Ten years ago. Yeah that is that is not new,
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: but like that also feels like it wasn't.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: That long ago.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's one of those things
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: where it's like, is this old.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: I guess to my daughter would be old, but like
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: to me, doesn't feel old. So time is a flat circle,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: is what I'm saying. This movie is called Whiplash. It
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: stars Miles Teller, JK. Simmons, Paul Reiser, and Melissa Benoy
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: and so those are like the four main top billing
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: for the movie. And it's basically about a kid who
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: gets accepted into like a premiere music school with this incredible,
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: really renowned music instructor and he's joining their jazz band
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: as a drummer. And it's intense. Is a word that
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: I would put at JK. Simmons is It's one of
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: those things where you watch a movie and you just go,
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: I get why this guy gets the credit or this
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: person gets the credit they deserve. JK. Simmons and Miles
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: Teller are brilliant in this movie, and it just you
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: can't help but watch it and just be totally sucked
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: into the story. And it's just about a kid who
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: is like trying to do his best and be the
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: best possible drummer in this band and in all of
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: the interpersonal conflicts that go along with that, and man,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: the last act of it just really just gets you.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: And there's like there's a really great moment where it
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: just like you just go oh, and it's really just done,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: really really well. So if you get a chance to
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: see it, put it on. It's only like ninety minutes,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: so it's a short watch, but it's really good.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: Do you know where it is currently available?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: I do not know, all right, well, I do not know.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: It might be Hulu or maybe Max.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, this has been recommended to me several times, and
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: I know it's a bit older, and I've been meaning
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: to watch it, but particularly as someone who was a
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: drummer for a very long time, it should speak to me.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: But the fear I have around the dynamic between the
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: two characters is something that has sort of kept me away,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: some sort of like watching someone basically abuse someone else's.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: It's pretty intense. It's on Netflix right now.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: Oh, okay, griovy, great, good to know.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Well, I think that that is what
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: we have to say about a couple of movies that
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: are sort of in the drama ye and maybe just
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: drama suspense abuse angle, And I think all we have
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: to say about massage. If you would like to tell
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: us about your experiences with massage or movies, you can
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: reach out to us directly. You can email us at
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. You can reach us on
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: the social media platforms or over on Facebook, Instagram, and
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: Blue Sky and mostly Blue Sky, and we look forward
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: to hearing from you. Really appreciate any any correspondence you
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: wish to give, and as we said, we certainly appreciate
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: support over on Patreon, whatever way you're able to help
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: out there. So, is there anything that I missed or
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: that you'd like to add before we sayah goodbyes.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: Nope, not today.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to This is Abraham, this is Shane.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: We're out Doya.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: You've been listening to Why We Do what we Do.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening and we
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: have an awesome guy