Latest / Authentic Living / Transforming Customer Experience: Insights from Tom Dewitt on Feedback, Technology, and Human Touch

Transcript

Transforming Customer Experience: Insights from Tom Dewitt on Feedback, Technology, and Human Touch · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
• 0:08
  about things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
• 0:40
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:41
  It's Roxanne Durhonch.
• 0:42
  Thanks for tuning in again this week to authentic living with Roxanne.
• 0:46
  Today, have a special colleague, Tom Duet.
• 0:48
  Tom has done a lot in the global ecosystem of customer experience.
• 0:53
  So, Tom, welcome to the podcast today.
• 0:56
  Thank you.
• 0:56
  It's great being here.
• 0:57
  So let me tell you a little bit about him.
• 0:59
  He's a PhD and the founder of Exm Global Collaborative, a global ecosystem created for
• 1:04
  customer experience and management practitioners' professional development.
• 1:09
  He's the founder of CXF at MSU and the academic director of masters of science at customer
• 1:16
  experience at Broad College of Business in Michigan State.
• 1:20
  He's has over twenty years of experience.
• 1:23
  So, Tom, just kinda tell us kind of what what kind of brings you to the path of customer
• 1:29
  experience, and where where's the focus today?
• 1:32
  I know we're in, I'm gonna say, a bit of a tilt with where things are going in the world.
• 1:38
  Aren't we always?
• 1:38
  My my interest on the field started when I was 14 years old working as a busboy in a
• 1:45
  restaurant.
• 1:46
  That was my first paid job.
• 1:48
  And I came to realize that I could impact the lives of people positively.
• 1:54
  And I set out on a career in the hospitality industry.
• 1:57
  I have a culinary degree.
• 1:59
  I have a four year degree in hospitality management.
• 2:02
  And along the way, I was always intrigued by two things.
• 2:06
  One, how consumers chose and navigated experiences, hospitality and otherwise, and
• 2:15
  also how they were impacted by the employees that they engaged with, and how employees
• 2:21
  approached their roles.
• 2:23
  So I worked in senior management positions in the hospitality industry, both in The US and in
• 2:30
  Asia, before embarking on my PhD in services marketing, which is really a predecessor or
• 2:38
  laid early groundwork for the field of customer experience management.
• 2:43
  And for those of your listeners that don't quite know what it means, customer experience
• 2:48
  management is really the purposeful design and execution on the experiences that customers
• 2:56
  have with their organization.
• 2:58
  Much of it is very process driven, process design, but it also takes into consideration
• 3:04
  all of the physical attributes or sensory attributes that influence customers'
• 3:10
  perceptions, as well as the people they engage with.
• 3:15
  So in its totality, Lou Carbone would classify experiences in three different categories of
• 3:22
  clues.
• 3:23
  Functional clues are everything that goes into producing a product or service, like getting
• 3:30
  your lunch order or your coffee order right, and the human clues, which are the clues given
• 3:37
  off by all of the human beings in the environment, including service personnel.
• 3:42
  And then let's see functional.
• 3:46
  Well, humanic and then mechanic clues are all of the sensory cues.
• 3:53
  So, you know, as a consumer, when we go into experience, we're taking all that in.
• 3:58
  But, you know, conversely, and this is where our industry comes in, understanding who those
• 4:04
  consumers are and what brought them there and what their goals were, are not only in terms of
• 4:10
  functional outcomes, but also emotional outcomes.
• 4:13
  Because one thing that we realize, the majority, the vast majority of decisions that
• 4:18
  consumers make are based on emotions and desired emotional state.
• 4:23
  So that's really key as well.
• 4:25
  Throw into this mix that consumers today make most of their decisions based not on
• 4:34
  advertising, but on the reviews and feedback that they get from other people.
• 4:41
  And technology just fuels this.
• 4:43
  So if you ask a group of people, what do you trust more?
• 4:47
  A third party review from somebody you've never met, or an advertisement from a company,
• 4:53
  overwhelmingly, they point to the reviews.
• 4:55
  And the reviews are the results of people's experiences.
• 5:00
  So now businesses have a vested interest in the quality of the experiences they deliver,
• 5:06
  because customers are making decisions based on desired emotional states.
• 5:10
  They're making decisions largely on the quality of the experience.
• 5:14
  That's a huge thing.
• 5:16
  And if a company does good or does well in that endeavor, then customers say good things about
• 5:23
  them, which will impact the decisions of other people.
• 5:28
  And that's not even taking into consideration the value of customer loyalty and what that
• 5:33
  means in terms of consumer spending over the years and how they influence other people.
• 5:40
  So this is really what we've seen in the past thirty years, I guess, is a move away from a
• 5:46
  very product centric transactional business model that's around here.
• 5:50
  We're going to develop this product.
• 5:52
  We're gonna market the heck out of it.
• 5:54
  We're gonna sell a lot.
• 5:55
  We're gonna make a lot of money.
• 5:57
  And it's more about understanding when people set out on experiences, what are they trying
• 6:04
  accomplish?
• 6:05
  And what are its nuances, not just in the functionality?
• 6:08
  Like, you know, I always like to talk about restaurants.
• 6:12
  It's not just the quality of the food, but it's the environment in which it's provided, right?
• 6:17
  And the mood that that sets.
• 6:19
  It's the people in which we engage in.
• 6:21
  And that can change based on the context.
• 6:25
  Are you meeting?
• 6:25
  Are you on a date?
• 6:27
  Is it a family reunion?
• 6:28
  And it's really understanding that and being able to deliver on it and adapt to it makes
• 6:35
  what we do.
• 6:37
  So you did mention things of we've had these swings and things that have really driven our
• 6:44
  field for about ten, fifteen years.
• 6:47
  It was about surveys and measurements, NPS scores and customer effort scores.
• 6:53
  And we're hearing all about AI and the use of AI in different aspects of the experience from
• 6:59
  research, data collection, data analysis.
• 7:04
  We hear a lot about chat baits and generative AI being used by call centers.
• 7:09
  In fact, I wouldn't even call it a conversation, but I had an interaction with a
• 7:14
  computer for about ten minutes.
• 7:16
  Didn't fully get things resolved.
• 7:18
  And that's one of the issues.
• 7:20
  So one of the things we're facing as an industry right now is a lot of these decisions
• 7:24
  are being made based on cost savings or the belief that organizations are gonna save money
• 7:31
  by using AI.
• 7:32
  But unfortunately, the majority of AI initiatives and experience management aren't
• 7:37
  meeting their ROI projections.
• 7:39
  So I think we're still in a state of flux.
• 7:42
  But AI is here to stay.
• 7:45
  And if used properly, it makes people more productive, and we'll be able to do a better
• 7:50
  job in experience management.
• 7:52
  So you're talking about reviews.
• 7:53
  Right?
• 7:53
  I I was at an event recently.
• 7:55
  We were talking about Reddit, for instance.
• 7:57
  Yep.
• 7:58
  And the impact on things like Reddit and Quora and marketing now, how much more the impact of
• 8:04
  YouTube is with engagement, those types of things.
• 8:07
  And now you throw in that little splice that you just gave in about the AI kind of bot
• 8:13
  that's kind of maybe dealing with a lot of things because companies are implementing it.
• 8:19
  So if I let's say I go to a high end restaurant, I have an expectation, like you
• 8:24
  said, if I'm gonna spend a couple $100 for a nice meal to feel a certain way.
• 8:30
  But let's say something's off.
• 8:32
  Right?
• 8:32
  Maybe I've gone there a lot.
• 8:34
  The odds are the more likely I'm gonna kinda not I've gotta kinda shelve it under onetime
• 8:39
  experience.
• 8:41
  Do you find that in this economy right now, are people still more likely to stay with a brand
• 8:47
  that they've always liked if there's a one off, or are they more likely to kind of be reactive
• 8:52
  and go in, you know, write the review and those types of things?
• 8:57
  So a couple things going on here.
• 8:58
  I'm glad you touched on this area because I enjoy it.
• 9:01
  The reality is we wanna be in monogamous relationships with brands we can trust.
• 9:06
  Right?
• 9:07
  And the the reality is, to your point, the longer we're in a relationship, the higher is
• 9:12
  the trust.
• 9:13
  So two things happen here.
• 9:15
  One, we're more forgiving.
• 9:16
  So it's like, you know, your point, you go, that was a one off.
• 9:19
  The other thing that happens is because we value that relationship so much, and we want to
• 9:26
  see it endure, and we want to see them do well, oftentimes we'll provide feedback because we
• 9:33
  want it fixed.
• 9:34
  As opposed to the person who hasn't been there very long, they see a mistake and they go,
• 9:38
  Well, I'm not coming here anymore.
• 9:41
  I'm gonna go someplace else.
• 9:43
  To that point, you know, technology has lowered switching costs.
• 9:47
  So when you think about what it used to take to find alternatives and evaluate them, it was a
• 9:53
  very laborious, you know?
• 9:56
  You had to go to the yellow pages.
• 9:57
  Remember those?
• 9:58
  Tomorrow, you're gonna learn.
• 9:59
  There's no internet.
• 10:01
  Where are you gonna learn about the food quality?
• 10:03
  Switching costs were so much higher.
• 10:05
  When you try another restaurant, well, where are you gonna go and why?
• 10:09
  Well, now you can do like I do.
• 10:11
  I go to my phone.
• 10:12
  My favorite search feature is restaurants near me.
• 10:15
  And I go through there, I look at the high scoring, and I look it's important to invest in
• 10:21
  the relationship with your customers, and to consistently offer repeated satisfactory
• 10:28
  encounters, which means you need to know what they expect and why, and you need to be able to
• 10:35
  deliver on that consistently.
• 10:36
  And technology can help you to do that, but you gotta be able to deliver at a high level,
• 10:41
  right?
• 10:42
  And that's why I still think there's a strong desire for human interaction.
• 10:47
  Technology can do certain things.
• 10:50
  It doesn't need to be at a high end restaurant.
• 10:52
  I go to Panera quite often and use their app to great advantage for ordering and tracking and
• 11:00
  rewards points and things like that.
• 11:02
  But where they often fail is maybe because of staffing shortages come up and there will be a
• 11:10
  note on the door excusing the service today because they're shorthand.
• 11:15
  So as an organization, if you go all in on technology, you ignore your people and the
• 11:21
  internal processes that drive employee engagement, how they feel about their job and
• 11:27
  how they feel about the organization, you can fail in that way too.
• 11:31
  Right?
• 11:32
  Yeah.
• 11:32
  Don't
• 11:33
  And I've been like, you know, well, of course, I talk about the ROR, right, which is all about
• 11:37
  relationship.
• 11:37
  Like, you know, it's so common.
• 11:39
  It's one thing it's one thing too, like, with your management.
• 11:43
  I often talk about with employees.
• 11:45
  They may have a beef, or they may have a disgruntled kind of perspective or
• 11:49
  diametrically opposed kind of position from yourself and kind of what the vision and the
• 11:54
  mission is for the environment.
• 11:55
  But I think it's sometimes listening to a different perspective, which may have validity.
• 12:00
  It doesn't mean it needs to be negated altogether.
• 12:03
  But it's when you kind of like, I was recently talking to somebody about the generations in
• 12:07
  the workforce at present, right, and the newer generation and how they are coming from working
• 12:12
  and leading from a different spacing.
• 12:14
  We we call them entitled or they're coming in and they have different goals, say, compared to
• 12:19
  the baby boomers or stuff like that.
• 12:21
  And, ultimately, you're still having to manage all those individuals.
• 12:25
  And you wanna lead them to success, obviously, to your brand or whatever.
• 12:29
  How open do you think from the companies that you're dealing with that are very successful to
• 12:35
  that diametrically opposed position with some of the different decision making.
• 12:40
  Yeah.
• 12:41
  I would say not that they're diametrically opposed.
• 12:43
  Maybe the value system is different, but not in a bad way.
• 12:47
  You know, what I've seen the younger generation is they put a higher value on quality of life.
• 12:53
  Our generation, we just work way too hard.
• 12:56
  Know, I admire the younger generation for that.
• 12:59
  You know, my daughter, you know, in terms of her physical health, her mental health, and
• 13:03
  she's much more well rounded.
• 13:06
  I think that's a good thing.
• 13:07
  I guess the overriding principle for me is if you have a truly customer centric organization,
• 13:15
  or maybe you don't call it customer centric, but everyone wants to feel like they're part of
• 13:21
  something bigger than themselves, right?
• 13:23
  They want to feel that what they do every day matters.
• 13:26
  And I would argue maybe the younger generation feels that more than my generation did.
• 13:32
  Particularly if you're a customer centric organization, it's easier to make that
• 13:37
  connection, right?
• 13:38
  Whether you work in accounting or you work a frontline role, if I understand you as an
• 13:43
  individual and why you're there, what you're hoping to get out of your work, And I'm helping
• 13:49
  to develop you in that role and show you a path forward, but also help you to understand how
• 13:55
  you're part of a greater group of people that's here to understand and meet the needs of their
• 14:02
  customers in a meaningful way.
• 14:04
  Now, isn't that worth getting out of bed for every day and going to work?
• 14:09
  As opposed to not knowing, which is often the case that I've seen, where employees don't know
• 14:16
  much about the vision or mission or direction of their organization or its values or how they
• 14:22
  fit in.
• 14:23
  And you think about how that affects your psyche and leaves you open to leaving when
• 14:30
  things go wrong.
• 14:31
  Companies should be in the business of serving, understanding and serving the needs of their
• 14:36
  customers.
• 14:38
  And being profitable allows them to continue to do so.
• 14:42
  I think if I work for a company like that, and that's how we operate every day, I'd feel
• 14:48
  pretty good about what we do.
• 14:50
  And my research has shown that.
• 14:52
  I've run measurement scales, internal samples and organizations, multiple organizations,
• 14:59
  measure customer centricity and employee engagement.
• 15:04
  And not surprisingly, they're very highly correlated on many dimensions.
• 15:09
  Because I think that resonates with people, whether it's the younger generation or the
• 15:15
  older generation, maybe more so with the younger generation.
• 15:19
  I think you're right.
• 15:20
  But that's where we come down to leadership or management levels or supervisory.
• 15:25
  And, you know, the frontline people are so key fundamentally.
• 15:29
  Right?
• 15:29
  And they are touching the customer that's walking through that door if it's a physical
• 15:34
  environment or if it's a digital environment.
• 15:36
  There's still a feel that you wanna experience.
• 15:38
  And, you know Exactly.
• 15:39
  When I was an executive in health and wellness, for instance, huge company.
• 15:44
  And, you know, oftentimes, when I would get concerns about the quality of service, you
• 15:50
  know, initially, I would deal with them alone, Tom, because it was a smaller company.
• 15:54
  You know, my accountant were attached to me.
• 15:56
  The how much the company had grown.
• 16:10
  But what ended up happening is the quality of that touch point when there was a concern got
• 16:17
  removed from myself as the executive.
• 16:20
  So the length of time that it sometimes took to resolution got longer, and clients would, you
• 16:27
  know, just be horrified.
• 16:28
  Right?
• 16:29
  Like, I mean, someone's been sitting on a line.
• 16:31
  For instance, they're calling in for psychological service.
• 16:34
  Hopefully, they've been triaged, and there's nothing physical, but, generally, it wasn't
• 16:37
  any, you know, critical.
• 16:38
  But they still would time the the length of time oftentimes.
• 16:42
  And into the contract, some things would say it has to be within a certain times.
• 16:46
  And then every quarter, as they increase the suppose supposedly efficiency of quality
• 16:52
  assurance, the length of time got longer and longer to resolution.
• 16:56
  Yep.
• 16:56
  So you had these absent companies freaking out.
• 16:59
  Right?
• 17:00
  And we would obviously try to kind of address things.
• 17:04
  But what was most important in me, myself, as the executive running the accounts was the
• 17:08
  relationship I had.
• 17:09
  So I could pick up that phone and say, well, you know, when Tom called in, you know, from
• 17:14
  Buffalo, you know, the wait times were black.
• 17:17
  This is what happened.
• 17:18
  This is what we've done to address it.
• 17:20
  But because there were so many levels, by the time that I got to people already peeved.
• 17:24
  So I couldn't by the time the explanation would have gotten to them, they were already saying,
• 17:29
  when your other customers do clients do this, please do this, and then it ended up being a
• 17:34
  big thing.
• 17:34
  So with bigger companies today, what are they doing to address kind of that lag time?
• 17:41
  Okay.
• 17:42
  We have systems, like you said, AI.
• 17:44
  Right?
• 17:44
  But are there certain things that you're seeing that's working and that's not working out
• 17:49
  there?
• 17:49
  Yeah.
• 17:49
  Well, it all comes back to the fundamental principles for complaint handling and
• 17:54
  resolution.
• 17:55
  First of all, people want interactional justice.
• 17:59
  They want to feel that what they're coming to you with is understood and it's valued.
• 18:10
  So they want apologies.
• 18:12
  They want you to take ownership of it, right?
• 18:15
  Be understanding.
• 18:16
  It's hard to do that with technology in a meaningful way.
• 18:19
  Particularly people figure out they're talking to a computer.
• 18:22
  You know?
• 18:22
  They're like, okay.
• 18:23
  Whatever.
• 18:24
  You know?
• 18:24
  Am I talking to a human today or wherever?
• 18:26
  Right?
• 18:27
  Yeah.
• 18:27
  They want procedural justice.
• 18:29
  Make it easy for me to do this.
• 18:32
  And part of that procedural justice is informing people of wait times.
• 18:38
  It's saying what you're seeing a lot with technology now is we can call you back.
• 18:42
  Would you like to be called back at this number?
• 18:45
  Now, you think about that.
• 18:46
  Now all of sudden, I can hang up the phone and go back to what I was doing.
• 18:50
  I can forget about it, right?
• 18:52
  And then they call me back.
• 18:53
  So that's really key, procedural justice.
• 18:56
  And then distributive justice is a resolution fair.
• 19:01
  And I think it's understanding the extent, the amount of damage that's been caused.
• 19:07
  And it's not always about giving things away.
• 19:09
  Often it's just answering their question or providing them with a solution that meets the
• 19:15
  problem that they came to you with.
• 19:18
  And sometimes you can do that with technology, with chatbots and so forth, with a large enough
• 19:24
  database, they're able to identify the appropriate solution pretty quick.
• 19:30
  But two of the biggest reasons why AI initiatives and contact centers don't meet
• 19:37
  their ARYI is from a lack of sufficient data.
• 19:42
  So you ask a question and it queries, I don't have an answer to that question right now.
• 19:46
  Or you may want to, well, that just frustrates you more, right?
• 19:50
  Or a failure to integrate with existing systems.
• 19:54
  So I think oftentimes organizations rush into this a little too fast with cost savings as the
• 20:02
  primary driver rather than improving the quality of the outcomes.
• 20:07
  And that should always be their primary focus.
• 20:11
  Right?
• 20:11
  So I think that's you know, there's a potential there, but it's a matter of melding both
• 20:18
  technology and humanity and human beings in that conversation.
• 20:24
  And I think
• 20:24
  And we're not there yet.
• 20:25
  Well, not a lot of companies We're way off.
• 20:28
  Well, a lot of companies are trying to get to it quicker and implementing and thinking about
• 20:33
  this broad brush of of we're gonna just implement all the AI strategies, and it's good
• 20:37
  to they're feeling the human the human the human element is getting lost.
• 20:42
  And, you know, with the human element being lost, then they they perceive that that's gonna
• 20:47
  address all the concerns.
• 20:48
  Like you said, their bottom line is gonna be you know, a certain amount's gonna be shaved
• 20:51
  off, and we'll be all good.
• 20:52
  And then you have your massive your human capital kinda leaving and going out in droves
• 20:58
  because they're like, you know, when you're working for a company, you're getting
• 21:01
  consistence, like, for for this particular company.
• 21:04
  After a while, they had grown so quick in such a short period of time, so they didn't kind of
• 21:09
  plan proactively for the the extent of their growth.
• 21:12
  Unfortunately, as the leaders got deeper with myself as an executive, the complaints were the
• 21:17
  same.
• 21:18
  And then you're just hoping that you can rely on the relationship.
• 21:22
  But after a while, you can't go back and say, I'm so sorry.
• 21:25
  By the way, we've chopped a minute off, but now something else has gone awry.
• 21:29
  So I think it's looking at what strategies are you gonna implement because you're looking at
• 21:34
  the outcomes.
• 21:34
  And then how is your faithful customers that are gonna stay with you?
• 21:38
  They're still gonna be upset if now the quality kind of dips at a certain level as well.
• 21:43
  Absolutely.
• 21:44
  Now I know you are the were the a a timeline crutch for you today.
• 21:49
  But based on the economy today and for companies that are really, really looking to
• 21:55
  hold on to what business is and really continue to strive to increase business and keep the
• 22:02
  good customers that they have at present and attract new?
• 22:06
  Are there a couple of points that companies should be thinking about on the customer
• 22:10
  experience end to insurance?
• 22:13
  Well,
• 22:15
  you know, first of all, look at your core competencies.
• 22:17
  Don't look for quick fixes.
• 22:19
  You know, truly understand what it means to be a customer centric organization in terms of
• 22:24
  your day to day operating practice and how customer experience management fits into that.
• 22:30
  Invest in qualitative research.
• 22:33
  There are so many limitations to survey data, so many.
• 22:37
  Invest in qualitative research.
• 22:39
  We still need to do depth interviews, whether they're done virtually or in person.
• 22:45
  Take the time to understand where your customers are coming from and what they're
• 22:49
  trying to accomplish.
• 22:51
  And create purposely driven experiences that are focused on both functional and emotional
• 22:59
  outcomes for the consumer.
• 23:02
  And be conscious of the clues that I've laid out in every touchpoint and how do they
• 23:06
  reinforce that?
• 23:07
  How are they moving them closer?
• 23:09
  Whether it's an insurance product, you name it.
• 23:12
  It could be anything, right?
• 23:13
  There's a reason why I go to Panera.
• 23:15
  It's not the coffee.
• 23:16
  The coffee's good.
• 23:17
  But it's because the environment provides me with a setting where I can work and relax and
• 23:22
  everything, right?
• 23:23
  So you got to be conscious of all that.
• 23:26
  And then continuously improve.
• 23:29
  Customer needs and desires are changing constantly, as is their ability to utilize
• 23:34
  technology.
• 23:36
  And then maybe the last thing is utilize technology to improve your core competencies.
• 23:43
  Not to save money, but to make you more productive.
• 23:47
  You'll be more profitable.
• 23:48
  But choosing and using AI, it has to come based on what is it gonna help you to improve and how
• 23:56
  and not cost savings.
• 23:58
  Right?
• 23:58
  Not cost savings.
• 23:59
  Not the bottom line.
• 24:00
  The not the bottom line again.
• 24:02
  Yep.
• 24:03
  So for people that are wanting to learn more now that we have you have a conference coming
• 24:08
  up.
• 24:09
  Yep.
• 24:09
  You wanna tell people a little bit about it.
• 24:11
  I'm also a keynote speaker at the event.
• 24:14
  Tom, tell people a little bit about it if they want are interested in signing up and learning
• 24:18
  more about it.
• 24:19
  Sure.
• 24:19
  Well, they can learn more about me on LinkedIn.
• 24:22
  I'm Tom DeWitt, PhD.
• 24:24
  I think I'm the only one there.
• 24:26
  The Exm Global Collaborative.
• 24:28
  There, they can learn more or they can go to our website, www.xmgc.org.
• 24:34
  And there they can learn about our conference, the XM Global three sixty.
• 24:40
  We're offering two programs Hemisphere beginning in Hanoi at 9AM on May 21.
• 24:49
  And then the Western Hemisphere at 9AM Eastern Standard Time in New York City.
• 24:56
  Three forty five minute sessions.
• 24:58
  Each one you can choose from one of four to five different sessions.
• 25:04
  So people have choices.
• 25:06
  And all the sessions are recorded.
• 25:09
  So you'll be able to watch them.
• 25:10
  You have up to thirty days platform to watch your recordings.
• 25:15
  And if you become a member of the collaborative, you can can watch them through
• 25:20
  your member portal that every member has.
• 25:23
  Awesome.
• 25:25
  Well, Tom, thanks so much for your time.
• 25:27
  And I also have the privilege, like I said, on presenting on the elements of relationship and
• 25:33
  the bottom line, the ROR, which is the return versus the investment.
• 25:38
  So I will be putting a link in the show notes so that if you're interested in attending and
• 25:43
  and signing up and and joining the the collaborative, that would be a great thing.
• 25:50
  So, again, Tom, thanks so much.
• 25:51
  And for everybody
• 25:52
  Thank you, Roxanne.
• 25:53
  Thank you.
• 25:54
  Anybody looking to connect about the ROR masterclass, just reach out to me at Roxanne at
• 25:59
  Roxanne Durhodge dot com for more details.
• 26:02
  Again, thank you, Tom.
• 26:04
  And, everyone, take care.
• 26:05
  We'll talk to you soon.
• 26:06
  Bye bye.
• 26:06
  Take care.
• 26:07
  Thanks, Roxanne.
• 26:09
  Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 26:14
  healthy change.
• 26:16
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
• 26:20
  To work with Roxanne, visit roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 26:26
  We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.