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Progression vs Perfection · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

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Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of Chatting With The Experts
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where I speak with phenomenal, fantastic, fabulous women from Africa, from
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the Caribbean and in the diaspora.
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And today's no exception.
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Our show is titled
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The Grip is Real, and my guest, who will join me in a minute, says,
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"Are you tired of being under the pressure of being sick and tired?"
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She says she knows that feeling, and it just sucks.
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She calls it perfection-driven misalignment, and that is the gap
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between excellence and perfection.
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She is a leadership strategist, she's a coach, a speaker, an author,
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and a recovering perfectionist who knows leadership pressure
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travels from the leader to the team, the culture, and results.
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And she's also a former Baltimore City Councilwoman, a CPA, and a
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ICF PCC coach.
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Oh my gosh, I could say so much more about her, but what I'll do, I'll welcome her to
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the show so that she can talk more about all the wonderful things she's achieved as
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we launch into Chatting With The Experts.
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So welcome to the show, Dr.
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Helen Holton.
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Do, do, do, do, do.
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Oh, my, I love it.
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Hello, Paula.
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Thank you so much for the invitation to be here for a conversation today.
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I am so excited,
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yes.
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I don't know who's more excited, me or you.
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Excited.
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But we're both excited, right?
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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You say you're a recovering perfectionist, but I couldn't tell looking at you.
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Tell us more about this.
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Well, as I, you mentioned my book, and I just wanna kinda go there
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because that's where it began to unfold for me, unbeknownst to me,
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just in looking at what does it take for a leader to lead with excellence?
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Mm-hmm.
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And thinking about my journey over more than 30 years of leadership, I
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realized that, uh, now I'm a church girl.
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I grew up in the church.
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I'm a God girl, okay?
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Hallelujah to that.
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And I remember as a little girl hearing, pastors say or preachers say, you know,
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"With new levels come new devils." Mm-hmm.
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And I just thought it was a fancy way of, "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah," not
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understanding what that meant.
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But in a full circle moment as I began to rise in leadership, I began to notice the
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challenges, the, the harder it became.
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I began to notice my own self-doubt, my own feeling like I wasn't
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good enough to be in the place.
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Having to work harder, putting in the extra hours, burning the midnight oil.
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And then watching someone who didn't do half as what I did be promoted or get
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that next opportunity to do something.
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Every job I left, the last three jobs I left, the one thing they all
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had in common is that I had to train more than one person to replace me.
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Hmm.
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Do you know how much that stings?
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Mm.
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Do you know how much that says, "Did anybody notice everything I was
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doing?" Mm. I was there giving 150%-
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… until I was used up.
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I just felt like this is a dead-end path.
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This is interrupting my ability to rise higher.
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Going through my, I still didn't understand what it was.
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Then I realized it was internally.
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It was not being able to find my voice and use my voice to speak up.
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It reminds me what Shirley Chisholm used to say, " If there's no seat
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for you, bring your own chair."
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When I look at the women who have broken ground, and I'm gonna speak specifically
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about women of color, women period.
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You know, Gloria Steinem died just a few, died this year.
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Mm-hmm.
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Um, there was someone else in that genre of trailblazer.
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I can't think of who the other woman was.
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Oh, Dolly Parton.
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I was gonna say.
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And so, but the, Dolly Parton.
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And I look at the Shirley Chisholms, I look at the Kamala Harris',
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I look at the Michelle Obamas.
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I look at women who rise up, and what I believe today, and I believe it because
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of my experience, and I know that there's intellectually I believe it, but I
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also believe that there are conscious and unconscious biases in our society.
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I just left a conference and talk- where they were talking for women,
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women in high roles in heavily male-dominated fields that struggle
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with, that are looking for ways to not only keep their career on track,
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but how do I bring others behind me?
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As I began to look further and really dissect what was going on, and 2025
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really sent me down a path that says we've got to find a way to find our
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place and our space, because women, I believe, have less value today
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than they had five years ago in the workforce, in these male-dominated roles.
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When you look at right now, a year ago, there were 300,000 women that
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were displaced out of government, corporate, nonprofit organizations.
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Today, that number has doubled.
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Whether they left on their own, out of frustration, out of not being seen
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or heard, but we're at a place where we need to find our space and place.
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And when I looked at it, I can trace back what I believe disrupts
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the leadership of not just women leaders, but leaders, period.
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It's just that we as women tend to absorb it differently than men, and that is what
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I call perfection-driven misalignment.
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It is not a curse.
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It is not a bad word.
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It is not a term that we hear often today, but it is a reality
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that we face today as leaders.
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So this is not something relegated just to women, but I will tell you
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this, as a woman of color, I can trace back over my life what has
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caused misalignment.
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I know we spoke at length offline, and would you say, we talk about
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women in general and then we filter it down to women of color.
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Would you say that excellence is, or denial of excellence, or
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over-performance, because that's almost like sometimes perfection-
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Over-performance
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Yeah, it's over-performance.
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Mm-hmm.
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It's a cultural, and it's an unspoken cultural assignment?
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Yes.
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Yes.
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And here's a saying, and I'm gonna go back, and I'm sure
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you've heard this saying
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Mothers spoil their sons and raise their daughters.
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Yes
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That's putting you on a path to be perfect
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Yes
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If you wanna get a good husband, you better learn how to cook
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Heard that
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It's always, how do I get to be me?
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And what is that husband, who's instructing that man on what he should
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do if he wants to get a good wife?
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Be a provider
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However, when you look at the plight of divorce rates, and I use that
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because oftentimes in a divorce, especially where children are
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involved, all of those things end up sitting on the plate of mom, not dad.
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When you look at the number of single parent households,
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they're mainly led by women.
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Yeah.
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And that's worldwide.
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And mothers… Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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So when you say
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I need to have all the answers before I speak
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What does that sound like to you?
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Everything looks successful, so why do I feel so exhausted?
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This is what I know.
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The purpose of leadership is to expand you, not to exhaust you.
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I like that.
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The purpose of leadership is to expand you.
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Not to exhaust you.
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Not to exhaust you.
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I'm writing this down.
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And so when I hear, it's so much that I hear people speak from a space
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of wanting to be perfect, that I'm gonna be the one, I'm the leader.
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I can't celebrate yet.
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There's still work left to be done.
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Yeah, love.
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So in my book, I talk about strengths awareness.
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What does that mean?
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It means knowing who you are at your best by nature and nurture.
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And oh, by the way, you don't just wake up one day knowing this.
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No.
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You've got to do the work.
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And what does do the work mean?
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So I use several assessment tools when I'm coaching, training, working with
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leaders and rising leaders and potential leaders, is because you can say, "Oh,
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well I need to be…" Case in point, I'm a halfway decent end user of technology.
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Now, I go to other people that do it, like, off the top of mind.
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"Oh, how'd you do that?" "Oh, I don't know, I just…" And they go,
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and I'm like, "Okay, back that up.
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Record that for me.
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Let me write it out for me because you said it so quick I can't even
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ingest it, but you fixed my problem."
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Now, I've had a knack for numbers since I was a little girl.
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I could remember phone numbers back in the time when we had dial phones.
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Remember that?
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Some of your callers may be talking about dial phones.
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What the heck is that?
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Party lines.
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I remember.
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I'm there with you.
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And
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that's something that I just know how to do that.
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So what does it take to become good at your gifts, talents,
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education, and experience?
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An assessment, a tool that's going to, I'm gonna say for lack of a better word, but
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objectively or put you in a position so
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there's no right or wrong.
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It's gonna type you out in a certain way, whether it's CliftonStrengths,
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whether it's DiSC, whether it's Myers-Briggs, whether it's… I mean,
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there are tons of assessments out here.
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The purpose is to help you identify with who you are-
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… at your best.
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Now, this is talking about how do you strive for excellence, not perfection.
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Perfection is when you wanna do those things that aren't in your wheelhouse, but
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you feel like they have to be done because you're the leader, and if they don't get
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done, it's not, you know how many times have you rewritten the email because
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you wanna make sure it's just right?
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What is just right?
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Progress beats perfection every day of the week.
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So I want you to define that again because especially, as you say, as women- Mm-hmm
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… we always strive for perfection.
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I have had other guests talk about this, like from a man, and we most
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times 99.9% our guests are women.
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So for a man, 60% of a task once done is done.
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For women, we gotta get everything right.
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And learning or unlearning that behavior is a task in itself.
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I'm gonna give you a description of perfectionism
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from through the lens of a woman of God.
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Mm-hmm.
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Amen.
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Perfectionism is a ploy of the adversary to steal, kill, and destroy-
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I like that
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I can't afford to make a mistake.
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Sounds like perfectionism.
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It'll take too long to explain.
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I'll just do it myself
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Perfectionism causes you not to trust people you lead because you
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want everything to be perfect.
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Well, newsflash: imperfection cannot create perfection.
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That's a, oh, oh my gosh.
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That's a aha moment, especially as me as a believer.
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Imperfect- Well, you, you started off by saying perfection
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is a ploy of the adversary.
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Mm-hmm.
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And so being that the adversary is imperfect, as you said- Mm-hmm
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… imperfection cannot create perfection.
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So the-
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Well, each and every one of us.
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Without God loving us enough to send
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And I'm gonna, I'm gonna call it, say it this way.
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To send a guide to lead us back to
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the Source of All.
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Following Jesus won't make us perfect, but it'll certainly get us a lot further to
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ensure where we will spend our forever.
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Can I say Amen?
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Complete Amen!
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And I've experienced it time and time again.
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think about something as simple as:
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have you ever been in a position where you were working and striving to get that next
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promotion or that next level of leadership only to see it go to someone else?
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Mm.
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Here's what happens when you chase perfection.
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It's here and you think you're gonna reach it, and just as
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you get close, it moves higher.
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Just as you get close
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What it takes to get and attain that thing that's going to make you feel
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like you've accomplished or arrived, you're never going to attain because
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it's not excellence, it's perfectionism.
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Everybody's talking about it today, but I actually research it.
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And so what does it take to really, and I say a recovering
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perfectionist because the grip is real.
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It doesn't ever wanna let you go.
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It is your responsibility, awareness.
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You gotta be aware.
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You can't do everything.
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So I'm a Gallup certified coach.
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There are 34 talent themes, and whenever I give someone this
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assessment, what's the first thing they want to go do, look at when they
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get the ranking of their talents?
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They want to go to the bottom.
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No, you don't start with the bottom.
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You start with where you're strongest.
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You start at the top.
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And well, I don't have this, and I don't have that.
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Said, okay, you don't, but any of those 34 talent themes, any task
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can be successfully completed through any one of those 34
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talent themes if it's at your top.
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Now, if you want to spend all day trying to make what's at the bottom
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be what gets you through, look at the, all the time, and you're not
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focused on who you were created to be.
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Each and every one of us are born with gifts and talents that
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only you bring to the planet.
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And if you aren't willing to develop them and be in relationship
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with yourself, who am I, that you can put it out to the world.
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Yes, Dr. Helen.
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And that's so many of us
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live in- Women
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Yes, almost all Women
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more than men.
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Yes.
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Live in, you know, the word that's coming to me, for some purpose, is bondage.
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Or sometimes it's even denial because someone is telling you,
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"This is what you're good at." But like you said, you want to look at
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the things that you're not good at.
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"But I'm not good in this," instead of celebrating what you are.
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What you are.
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Yes.
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The gift and understand it is a gift.
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A gift is something that you don't earn.
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Somebody, for us as believers, we believe God has given it to you, so enjoy it.
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Walk in that.
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And the other things you can learn at a later date as opposed to beating
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up yourself about what you can't do.
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Here's the thing.
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Mm-hmm.
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Procrastination
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When you don't act because you want it to be just right.
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"Oh, it's not ready yet."
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Why not?
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When's it gonna be ready?
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It took me seven years to write my book.
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My publisher was gonna fire me.
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I'd gone through two book coaches and still no book.
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And I will tell you, it was John Maxwell that convicted me to complete my book.
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And I'll tell you how
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I was at one of, uh…
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So I, John Maxwell, I see John Maxwell personally twice a year.
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And at one of those gatherings, he gave us a book.
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He gave everybody there a book.
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And I was like, and it was called something like
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The Greatest Story Told or something.
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And I thought, "Oh, this is really nice." And I opened it up, and it had, like,
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printed in it a little handwritten note.
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And I read, "Oh, how nice." And then it had some questions
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to think about and consider.
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And then the rest of the book were blank, lined pages
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And I set that book up on my night table so that before going to bed every night
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and waking up every morning, I would see that book and it would say, "I have
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work to do." And I've been writing.
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I'm a ordained minister, a preacher.
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I mean, so it's not like I don't deliver messages, speak to people,
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have things full of content.
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And it convicted me.
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I got that book completed
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in about six months, 'cause I had all the pieces.
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And realizing after a while I was so in it, I said, "I need someone
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to review, to read this ," I mean, 'cause I keep reading it over and
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over and filling it in and this, that.
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And I used a developmental editor to help me pull the pieces together.
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Because we all have different gifts.
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God created us as relational beings.
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We need each other.
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We don't know everything.
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Never will.
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Never will.
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There's an African proverb, " If you wanna go fast, go alone.
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If you wanna go far, go with others."
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I'm going far.
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It doesn't have to be fast.
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I do want it to be memorable, impactful, able to pass on to others.
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Uh,
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I believe they call that legacy Mm-hmm.
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Quoting that proverb, um, 'cause just yesterday I was speaking about
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it with somebody, and we talked about, many times, still about
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the same topic about permission.
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Uh, not permission, about, you know, wanting to be perfect, but…
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And I said permission be- Perfectionism Yeah, perfection- perfectionism.
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'Cause what I wanted to bring up is about permission, because permission and
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perfectionism I think go hand in hand.
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Because many times we want to ask for permission before we even do
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what we know we want to do, because we're thinking it has to be perfect.
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"So I don't wanna do all this in case I make a mistake." So you're even afraid
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to do it because you feel you have to ask for permission, and you're afraid to
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ask for permission, so you don't get it done because you want it to be perfect.
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So it's like a circle, you know?
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There's a workshop I created, a free workshop.
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I do it when it fits, and then I promote it so people know,
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because it's called, it's developed specifically for women leaders.
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Mm-hmm.
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What do I define women leaders as executives, entrepreneurs, and
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rising, and leaders on the rise
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I call it the permission room.
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I like that.
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And the permission room was created for women to identify and understand
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what it means to be in the grip.
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Because the grip is real.
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Many of us live in denial of it, but as I said, I mean, look, I need to
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have all the answers before I speak.
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Yeah.
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Really?
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Why?
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"Let me look at it one more time before it goes out."
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Yeah.
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And I said, "Hmm."
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I should be able to handle this on my own
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I can't afford to make a mistake.
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Paula, these are the messages that we feed ourselves.
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Yes.
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And we feed this to ourselves because we're asked that.
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I remember getting a report card.
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I was so proud of this report.
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I couldn't wait to get home to show it to my parents.
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I had four As and a B.
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My mother said, "Oh, that's wonderful." My father looked at my report card.
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He said, "Why aren't they all As?" Hmm.
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What do you think that sets up in the mind?
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You're a failure.
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Or you're not good enough
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Yeah.
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We don't celebrate
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accomplishment.
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Yep.
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… in a way to just… Have you ever had someone say, "Oh, Paula,
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I love that. You look gorgeous in that outfit." Oh, this old thing?
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Yes.
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Come on now.
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Yep.
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Come on now.
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I have had to unlearn that.
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And it took me years to, you know, when someone says that,
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to say just a simple thank you.
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Thank you.
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Instead of, you know, doing the, "Oh, is it this? Oh, nah." No, we
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were taught as females as women to downplay any words of appreciation.
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Oh, no.
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No, not at all.
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I love your glasses.
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This?
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Oh, this thing I've had for so long?
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No.
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Yes.
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Just say thank you.
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Thank you.
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That's it.
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It's just like this.
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I train, coach women on how to say no.
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No is a complete sentence.
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It is.
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And I say, if you really are uncomfortable with it, you, then you
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say, "No, thank you." No, thank you.
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You still said no.
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And zip it up, because you will talk yourself out of something you really
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did not want to do because I don't wanna let them down, they're counting on me.
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You're the only one that can do that, that can deliver that
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Paula, the grip is real, and this is why I'm out here sharing information, speaking
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truth to power, calling it what it is.
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Because if you can't name it, if you can't own what is destroying you, what
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is robbing you of the gifts that God has given you because you're afraid,
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you're, don't feel like you're ready to yet, you haven't studied it enough,
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you haven't achieved enough, stop it!
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You got it interrupted
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And I've learned.
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There are three things that in my book I talk about the three things
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every leader needs to succeed.
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But they need these three things also to
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keep perfectionism
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from masquerading as excellence or the pursuit thereof.
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That's what it does.
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The grip of perfectionism is like a masquerade.
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It's like, "Oh, I'm wearing the mask. I'm gonna make you think it's
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excellence," but it really isn't
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Wow.
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And it requires us to be vulnerable, to be honest, that we
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carry more than is ours to carry.
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So one of the three things is being vulnerable.
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That's what I'm hearing?
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Vulnerability.
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Okay.
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All right.
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I'm looking at the time because whatever we don't finish here,
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we'll continue with the audience.
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Yes.
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Wonderful.
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I love it.
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Vulnerability, it is, we're not curious enough to ask.
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You know, the word of God says we have not because we ask not.
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Yes.
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What are you afraid of asking?
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What's the worst thing they can say?
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No.
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No.
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That's it.
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But what's the best thing that they could say?
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Yes.
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"Hey, I didn't think of that. Sure. Yes."
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So curiosity is the second one?
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Curiosity.
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But, the big one is resilience.
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Love it.
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Resilience is not something we're born with, it's something
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we build throughout our lives.
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But you have to know that, and you don't build it when you're in a crisis.
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And I have, in my book I list eight or 10 ways in which you can build resilience.
28:23
The other is wellbeing.
28:27
Not wellness.
28:28
We all need to take care of our health, but we need to understand
28:32
the nature of wellbeing.
28:34
You can think of it, I created a wheel, and I have to tell
28:37
you, I've done trainings around it that have been so powerful.
28:40
People have made major transitions in their life.
28:44
Changed jobs, decided they needed to retire to honor themselves the more
28:49
they'd worked all these years and, "Why do I keep doing this?" Hmm.
28:54
Or staying in a job that's secure but not pleasing.
29:02
That's secure, but you're not growing
29:07
And so wellbeing, looking at what creates that.
29:12
And I do the free workshop
29:21
And even the shift in that I realized in the vulnerability,
29:29
it takes a trusted, safe space to face our fears.
29:35
And you probably know like I know, years ago I learned fear is no more
29:39
than false evidence appearing real.
29:42
Okay.
29:42
Yeah.
29:42
But when it's there, baby, it's very real.
29:45
Yes, it does.
29:46
Yep.
29:47
Yeah.
29:47
And it's just a, it's like anything else.
29:50
You're not going to shake perfectionism because you went to a workshop.
30:01
If it were that easy, everybody'd be doing it.
30:04
It's a process.
30:05
It's a discipline.
30:06
It's a practice
30:09
that you put in place to guide your life, to reclaim your joy.
30:16
Ooh.
30:17
Yeah, you know, as I said, we could talk forever, but, we've
30:19
been talking for 30 minutes.
30:21
So we will continue this with the attendees, but for those
30:25
listening online who would love to continue the conversation
30:30
with you, how can they do that?
30:32
I would welcome that.
30:35
if anything I have said has resonated with you, I want you to go to LinkedIn-
30:41
Mm-hmm
30:42
and connect with me and DM me.
30:46
" I wanna know more.
30:47
I'm ready to break the grip."
30:50
" I wanna be free."
30:51
Reach out to you there.
30:54
just if you wanna have a conversation, DM me, "I'd like to have a
30:58
conversation." It's just that simple.
31:02
Just like you had a conversation with me.
31:06
Absolutely.
31:09
I'm living my best imperfect perfect life unapologetically.
31:14
I love it.
31:16
Best im-per-
31:18
Perfect … perfect … perfect life.
31:22
Yes.
31:23
I look at you, smiling.
31:26
Don't I look like it?
31:27
You look it, every bit of it.
31:30
I've learnt not to sweat the small stuff.
31:32
Mm-hmm.
31:33
And baby, it's all small stuff.
31:35
It is.
31:35
I can be in my own space and, you know, challenged by stuff going
31:40
on that, and then I have to-
31:43
Remember
31:44
… I have to say, "Just stop."
31:46
Yep.
31:47
Stop it.
31:47
Remember.
31:47
Let it go.
31:49
Remember who you are and whose you are.
31:51
I lost my favorite coffee cup while in Chicago, and for a moment, I lamented.
31:57
I said, "Oh, that was my favorite," and I said, "Well,
32:02
it's just time for a new season.
32:03
God has said you don't need that anymore," and it's gone.
32:07
So I will just wait for something better to come and replace it.
32:11
Mm-hmm.
32:15
Wow, I could keep talking with you.
32:17
But for those listening and those viewing this, I say this every
32:21
week, I get the best, and Dr. Helen Holton has not disappointed me.
32:29
So if you'd like to be on the show just as she has been, reach
32:32
out to me on my website, which is chattingwiththeexperts.com.
32:38
I'm also on LinkedIn, and just reach out to me on my business page there,
32:42
which is Chatting With the Experts.
32:46
I'm also on Instagram.
32:47
My handle there is @chat_experts_podcast,
32:53
and we have a YouTube channel.
32:56
Subscribe to us there and you'll be able to view this episode as well as all the
33:03
other episodes that we have had so far with phenomenal women whose mission is
33:10
the same as mine, which is to educate, empower, and encourage women globally.
33:19
Dr. Helen Holton, thank you so much for being such a phenomenal guest.
33:25
And now let's open up the floor to those who have joined us so that we
33:30
can continue this conversation, this fascinating, fantastic conversation
33:35
that we've been having together.
33:37
Thank you.
33:39
Thank you.
33:40
Thank you.
33:41
It has been my pleasure.
33:42
Mm. And I look forward to Chatting with the Experts more.
33:47
Aw, thank you.