Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / The Way of Belonging at Your Wholehearted Table with Sarah E. Westfall

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The Way of Belonging at Your Wholehearted Table with Sarah E. Westfall · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast with Amy Wicks, your wholehearted life and business coach.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: You should know this podcast will inspire you to grow in self-awareness, be passionate about your faith, and get clear on your calling.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you are new here, then welcome to the community of multi-passionate women who love to go deep on topics like faith, Enneagram, relationships, leadership, and community.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation might provide the step you need to make the change you desire.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get started.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: I believe one of the most meaningful and helpful ways to stay on your wholehearted path and journey is to intentionally build a table of relationships, a table full of people who reflect God's love, offer wise counsel, while also providing life-giving friendship and community.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of different people who can fill one or some of those roles.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: But here is something that we may not always think about or we don't always talk about as we build a wholehearted table of intentional relationships.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Before we can discern who belongs at our table, we have to recognize that belonging isn't something we achieve, it's something we become.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about striving for a place.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's about learning to embody belonging in our own lives.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: In this conversation, I'm joined by Sarah Westfall.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: She is the author of The Way of Belonging: Reimagining Who We Are and How We Relate.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah's work beautifully captures the idea that belonging starts within us.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's not something we hustle for.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Rather, it's something we live into.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So in this conversation, we're going to talk about how to wisely invite the right people into our lives, how do we reposition relationships when necessary?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And also cultivating a table that is both welcoming and sustainable.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we hint at this in our conversation, but have you considered that your personality type is connected to how you approach relationships, belonging, and even how you process disappointment?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you've ever wondered how your unique wiring influences your relationship, I'd love to talk with you.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: You can schedule a free clarity call to explore how understanding yourself better can help you build the table God is calling you to create.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Also, don't forget to check the show notes to get more details on the wholehearted abundance summit that is happening in March.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Early registrations get all sorts of special bonuses, so make sure you don't miss out.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's dive right into this conversation with Sarah Westball.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sarah, I'm so thrilled to have you on the Simply Wholehearted podcast.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for the invitation.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is good to be with you today.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, well, it's it's been fun.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love following fellow authors and teachers and just people in our space.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you've just been one that I've enjoyed following your life, your rhythms and all of that.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I I feel like we're very like-hearted and like-minded.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm excited to get to know you better in this conversation and also introduce you to my friends.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so fun when you and I get to get to know each other.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And now we're like seeing mannerisms and hearing voices.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then everybody else, you know, who is listening, gets to kind of just be here with us too.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: A fly on the wall, if you will.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I there's so many things I want to talk about today that are really continuing the conversation that I'm having here with my community about um building our wholehearted table.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the overall idea is going that we have an opportunity to set our table, to fill the spaces, because we're meant to do life in community.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that's kind of the crux of the Christian life, so key for us.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we also are invited to be intentional with what that looks like, intentional with the space that we have.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're talking about like ideas of who should be at the table, or when we're going through maybe healing um, what that looks like and to be maybe selective and cautious.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And your book, The Way of Belonging, I feel like it just fits so perfectly.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it was one of those when I planned this series, different authors were coming my way.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was looking at yourself.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, wait a minute, Sarah would be perfect for this conversation.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad to dive into your book a little bit more.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I love to usually find out is what's the behind the story story, you know, like what's what happened, or what was the catalyst, or what was the moment that you're like, oh, I think, I think I need to be writing about this topic.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And this is important, maybe for you and for others.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think I can start here since this is a uh Enneagram-focused cast that I will say that I think that this question of belonging is a little bit baked into who I am.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, from a really young age, I I feel like I have carried this sense of lack.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I am an Enneagram for.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's always a little bit of a sense of like something is missing.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is it in me or is it me?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: Am I the odd one out?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and so with that, I it's a question, this question of what is belonging?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: How do I get it?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Has been one that I've really wrestled with since um I was a really little kid.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, if I if I look, and I'll say it maybe always isn't the right word, because I can remember early versions of myself in which belonging and connection was pursued without a lot of um inhibition.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of, you know, running across the grass to the neighbor's yard and knocking on doors and asking for kids to come out and play.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there were um neighborhood carnivals that I organized.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so it didn't feel so complicated.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: There was a time it didn't feel so complicated.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but as we grow older, as we begin to, as I began to wrestle with these questions of identity and where I find my worth, um, the question of belonging got complicated along the way.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you throw in, you know, these wounds that we collect.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are large, some of them are um, like I describe in the book, they're like paper cuts that we accumulate along the way.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And and with that, then we begin to wonder what it really looks like to belong.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, um I pursued my belonging for a very long time through my performance, um, of kind of allowing achievement and recognition, that pat on the back or that moment in the spotlight to be kind of the substitute for belonging because I was being seen, I was being recognized, and in a lot of ways was in the inner circle of things.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was I was accepted in a lot of different ways, but being seen is not the same as being known.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there were so many parts of myself that I felt like were unknown or hidden or diminished, or that I wondered whether we're safe to bring into the room.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really, really wrestled with this question of belonging, um, definitely throughout high school and young adult years, and and even into my my 20s and 30s.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and what kind of became, you know, it did fuel a lot of my career choices in pursuing community building, um, in the writing that I do, in the ways that I choose to engage with my local church and my local community.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but I over the last, and all of these things have informed my understanding of belonging, but it was really, oh man, five-ish years ago where I begin to sense the shifting within me that belonging wasn't just something outside of myself that I was trying to attain or to achieve, that I wasn't, it wasn't just whether or not I was welcomed by other people, but it was also part of who I was becoming, that I had agency.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that part of that was embracing already who I was in God's, in God's eyes, in God's image, that that worth is baked in.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And also that it becomes a posture that I can embrace in the world.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: It becomes a posture that I can extend in the midst of my everyday life.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And in those things, I do have choice.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And those things I do have agency in how I bring belonging into the room, whether or not I find what I want there, you know?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of that's like the really high flyover version of where this thing came from.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: But um, and it continues, it continues to be.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we call it the way of belonging, because it's a way of being in the world.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is not a destination, it's not an arrival, but it's this way of being that continues as we hopefully become shaped and formed more into the likeness of God Himself.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I think such an important there's so much there.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to speak to.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of them, just to piggyback off of that thought, is the the idea that setting our table and inviting people to our table, it's an ongoing process.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's seasons that it'll shift and people will shift at their seat at the table, or you know, we'll need different people speaking into our lives.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so with that, um, I would hope we would continue to transform in Christ-likeness, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: The, you know, that way, practicing the way, you know, the way of belonging, really practicing belonging.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean to us?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean to offer to others?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I love that because I think it is an ongoing process.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And you're not going to just hear this conversation or these series of conversations, and then this is it, this is your table, this is what you're doing.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: The quest is for ongoing growth and ongoing transformation.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, uh, I love that.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just really beautiful.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so true because there are so many circumstances that can affect what the table looks like in any given season.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are so many things that, you know, place, people, stage of life, illness, you know, so weather, you know, there's a lot of things that can factor into that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it does provide a good foundation in which we find something sturdy that we can carry with us while at the same time remaining flexible and pliable as as life continues.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's good.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you mentioned that maybe this was becoming a little bit more clear, like rising to the surface of your conversations.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you were in your writing five years ago, and five years ago we were ushering in the COVID era.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious for you, um, out of in these years where gosh, I think most of us were shook to our core when it comes to the idea of belonging, no matter what decade we are in currently, you know, of life.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like whether we were a teenager in our 40s or 60s, I think that was was shaken quite a bit.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: For you, it was that timing coinciding, or what was some extra insight um in your life in that time?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that what that season did for me with my sense of belonging was two things.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: One, it reminded me how much I desired and maybe had underappreciated embodied presence.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: Of how there isn't a substitute for being in a room with people.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even though I am so grateful for the technologies and the ways in which the creative ways in which we continued to, you know, reach out to one another in the best ways that we knew how.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing that really kind of spoke into this book and into my understanding of belonging in that season was the invitation to let it start very small.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my our circle was very small in that season.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think most of ours were, um, especially when it came to um person-to-person interaction.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say we have four boys um and a dog.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe to some people that's not small.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there were some days it felt very cramped.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um just in terms of, you know, the the circus that we are sometimes in our family.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that the paring down of schedules and the paring down of commitments and kind of being able on some level wipe the slate clean and to be able to say it's okay if we are not all things to all people.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And belonging can actually take root and grow and blossom and and thrive, even if it's relatively quiet and small and unseen.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think too, just finding a sense of subtleness, even not only within those smaller circles, but even within myself of God reminding me um that I'm already loved, right where I am.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't need to do all the things or to prove myself to all the people that that's already here and that's already mine.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in that season, I don't know if it had to do necessarily with the pandemic, but it was kind of happening hand in hand with it, um, was just a a new settledness uh and reminder um of who I am and and the love that's there.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that you write about and also hinted at before is that belonging isn't something to attain, but to become your book unpacks that.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe you could unpack it a little bit in this conversation.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I think a a lot of my life, especially in trying to, you know, get certain accolades or achievements, or um, you know, whether that was like volleyball team captain, or I wanted to be um class president, or those are high school examples.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um even um, you know, into college or into my 20s and 30s of wanting people to even just like a simple like responding to something that I put online, like that quick little like hi that we get from from being noticed or getting that pat on the back.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um that always felt like I was trying to gain the approval of others.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we when we define belonging in that way, it can always feel like something that we are trying to attain or to achieve or to to mold ourselves into in order to find acceptance.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: But belonging and fitting in are not necessarily the same because belonging invites us to live into the fullness of who we are in our specificity.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just preached this last Sunday.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was guest guest preaching at a church and they gave me a First Corinthians 12, verses 12 through 31, which is talking about diversity in the body.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we allow belonging to be framed with the foundation of that diversity, of learning who we are and what it means to be a hand or a foot or a shoulder or a you know, a hair follicle, whatever that might be, and embracing that.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then, and then what it means to then become belonging is to more fully live into that specificity and more fully settle into the father's love.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, and then as a result, as a natural overflow of those things, it also then becomes something that we extend to other people.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately, that that is what God has done for us.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: He has extended an abundant belonging, and I think he invites us to do the same.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to know for you, as you've maybe shifted your table, um, as you've evaluated the sense of belonging over the last five years and launched a book, and you're raising four boys and a dog and all of these things.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Who who are some important voices that are speaking to?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to necessarily name names, but what are those, um what do those people look like and what's important for you to, or who's important to you to have be speaking into your life?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think that on one hand, I want to listen to a diverse variety of voices.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to do that a lot through my reading, especially.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate the long form um like diving deep into particular topics.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to do that and and and to read widely where I can.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think when it comes to my day-to-day actual life, um, I've had to come to some pretty, I don't want to say harsh realities, but maybe humbling realities that I have to keep my circles pretty small these days.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, motherhood and writing, um, those are things that take more out of me than I want to admit a lot of times.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in order for me to do those things well, and in order for me to go deep in those things, I have had to keep my circles pretty small.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I and I feel like it's been so funny.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's been this like season of like whittling down and whittling down until we're really trying to get at the core here.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but some of the things, and so each, I will say, I try to twice, maybe, maybe quarterly, but definitely at least twice a year, really ask myself who are in those circles of belonging.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because I do think there is with trust and time and transparency that those circles become smaller, the things that we give more of ourselves to in those areas.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there should be fewer number of people.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have to kind of assess who are my like intimate two.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and those honestly don't shift most of the time.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like my husband and maybe my best friend or two, you know?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then going through this process of reevaluating um who are in some of those more sacred center circles.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: And right now, because this might change and it has been different in other instances, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: But right now, um, some of the people who are in those circles are um my sisters.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have the joy of living in the same city as my sisters now.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so we um, you know, we have a book club with each other and we're able to text throughout the course of the day and see each other and have random Saturdays where we get together for a basketball game and things like that.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that includes uh a monthly supper club that I've been a part of for about five years now.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's going on five years.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it includes my spiritual director.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that is something spiritual direction in and of itself is new to me within the last like two years or so.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it has been an important relationship um in terms of having someone listen and listen for God, listen with God, listen and companion um in my spiritual walk, in my spiritual life.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um Um it's been a very spacious relationship where I can go and kind of um find my footing again a lot of times.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I would say right now, those are those are really some of the core, the core ones for me.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you for sharing that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's really valuable to hear the just the fact that you're living in this place in this space of it looks smaller than maybe what you thought an ideal place of belonging would look like.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that as I get older and I I'm leaning into that, that's a gift and that's a good thing.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean you don't have larger circles that you're not involved in, right?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: And we have that or our maybe our church or a kid's school or you know, some other um that is a place that we continually meet people and connect, but it's not who we're talking to day in and day out or week in and week out.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I love just just hearing as people begin to just seek the Lord and ask the Lord who needs to be there.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay if if it's smaller this year than it was last year.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just an indication of your season and what you have.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because to your point, uh our our our spouse, if you are blessed with siblings that you have good relationships with, which I love that is living in the same city as your sisters and book club, that's so beautiful.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you may not have that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you might have a book club that fills in that space.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then, you know, we may not be taking in um wisdom from our kids, but our kids certainly set the table if you have them.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, like all of that gets it builds quickly.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And if we look at the life of Jesus and the way of Jesus, he did interact with big crowds and big groups, but he also did most of his day-to-day with a small handful.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's again, as we're practicing this way of belonging, uh, there might be something to that.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's okay if it's smaller than what you thought you maybe even needed at one point.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think there's at least I have had a misunderstanding in the past of thinking, because I write a lot about being a person of welcome.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times I misunderstand that as meaning I have to say yes to all people all the time.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, sure.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I have I've found that honoring my finitude, of honoring my boundaries, of knowing my capacity, um, has actually been a huge asset and being able then to to go deeper with with particular people in particular seasons.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't have to affect the way internally that I posture toward toward other people as I go to the kids' school or as I go to the grocery store.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because that continues to be a place where I am can grow and be challenged as well.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: It just doesn't mean that they might, you know, sit at my my table every Tuesday or something like that.
• 25:22
  unknown: Yes.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Allie Peterson was on the podcast at the beginning of the month and I'm blinking on her book right now, but I think it was the blueprint for belonging, perhaps.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I might have that title correct.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: But she just talked about kind of the the circles that we look at as we we look at who who gets the most access when.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think to that point, it makes sense to me.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: One of my dear friends, whose name is also Sarah, is an Enneagram four.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I've seen how for her, she's also a writer.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the those circles have looked different and shaped differently than mine.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And also some were easier for her as opposed to what was easier for me.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some of those bigger places, or um maybe, you know, like ordinary, mundane places like the grocery store or whatever, that can be a bigger stretch for some personalities to engage with an intentional way in a welcoming way, as you put.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and for others, like I can make the air of like, oh yeah, all are welcome, and then fill my table too much or feel like I have the obligation of being as intentional with those, that big group of people as I am with my close people.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just not humanly possible.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Parker Palmer in his book, um, I think it's Let Your Life Speak, but he writes about how being a part, and this is not the exact quote, but it's the gist of it.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: But but being part of a community is trusting that when I cannot step toward a relationship, when I cannot fill in a gap, that there will be someone else who can.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's good.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was an incredibly freeing concept for me because I don't know if it's like the Christian soup that I grew up in.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, not that I grew up in a soup.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's a weird mental image.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, it's like I kind of like that actually.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: The thing that I grew up in, there I did feel a sense of obligation to all people all the time.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that in me kind of brought up a lot of scarcity versus an idea of abundance and trusting in the abundance of God's love and his ability to care for other people.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And he doesn't need me to do it necessarily.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's a that's a lot of stuff that has had to that I have had to let go of and let God kind of peel back and undo in me.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you just touched on that word because that is really the theme, a theme in my life of late.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: But then I'm hosting a summit in March, the Wholehearted Abundance Summit.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it is leaning into that topic in our area of you know faith and our relationships and even finances and resources.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does that abundance mean?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just touching here on a second of do you engage relationally with that scarcity or abundance mindset?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I came from a pastor's family and years in ministry, and there certainly is a pressure to engage at a high level with a lot of people.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that can that can impact um how you move forward in a way that's actually most life-giving for you going forward.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, and checking, checking that, like, oh, am I um, yeah, what what is actually behind the scenes?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: What is the the narrative that is going through my mind as I engage with these people, that group of people?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as we run into our finitude, like as we start running into those, those walls of saying, like, oh man, I have come to the end of myself here, of also allowing ourselves to then voice that to the to the person who we're speaking with or who is asking something of us, of saying, of not just saying, well, no, or a yes, but it's reluctant inside.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, or resentful, right?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of saying, like, can I just be really honest with you?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I really am at the bottom of my barrel here.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to be able to say yes, but I just can't, you know?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and being willing to maybe connect with other people or other things, like try to help be a resource.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think that we can have humility in those moments of saying, like the like I'm weak here.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and and in my weakness, I'm asking you to um to just like be okay that I am not the person in this moment.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think we do have to have those tough conversations at times where we're just honest about our well, our beautiful limitations and that step into like, hey, it was twice a month that we were doing this.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can we go to once a month?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or it was once a month, can we go to once a quarter?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and just owning that in a way of where, and hopefully in maturity, um we can become more confident on one side of saying it and then um compassionate when we have to receive it.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've certainly been on the receiving end of those conversations too, of like, I would love to, but I just can't.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And even though I don't understand, because it seems like an easy yes on my end, I don't, I don't have their experience to know.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that compassion piece on the other side of it is is important too, because I also have been on the other side.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when we lived in Tennessee and I really wanted um a woman, a mom who's a little bit farther along to kind of have as a mentor.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um we didn't have any family down there at the time.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I really was just like, I just need somebody to speak into my life.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a woman I really admired, and but I think I wasn't the only one.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So she was like the one that like everybody asked at our church, and she she said no.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think I wrestled with that for sure for a little bit.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was like at this it on the same moment, it's like I wrestled with that, but I also respected it.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: I also sensed like, oh, that was maturity.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I recognized it.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: It just took a little while for me to like recalibrate and um and and to let myself be tender in that moment about it as well.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think I want to say it's okay to those who are receiving the no or what what even feels as rejection to feel disappointed and sad about it, but then and then use it for one, it's it's not a rejection of you.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the limitation on them.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: But then two, how can we use this experience when we are needing to offer the no to do it with kindness and compassion, um, where you don't have to over-explain, but you can also, you know what it's like to receive the no.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and what does it look like to be tender in that way?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So um, it's so good because it we don't, we don't stop feeling it and there's nothing wrong with it.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not, I think too, we can sometimes as we're building our table, maybe we ask someone who can't to go, oh, did I did I mishear that or did I, you know, did I make a mistake of asking?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not the indication here.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's this is the process of learning how to do it intentionally and prayerfully and just the experience of sometimes it won't work for everybody when it works for you or when you want it to.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I I know there's a lot here on the sense of um your personality as it comes to the word belonging.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And oh gosh, I've all of a sudden I'm like looking at the time and thinking, there's so many things that I want to ask to this.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe, maybe instead, what sort of attitudes or practices would help us mirror um the way of the father or Christ's hospitality and welcome to others as we're as we're doing this?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I know we've we've kind of hinted at a few of those and even talking about um doing this with a compassionate um stance and process towards others.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are some other things that we should look at as we're building our table?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: In the book, I go through five different like postures and then corresponding practices.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is one way that we be can begin to walk this thing out.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I know I won't go in through through all of them because you know it took a book to write it.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I we probably don't have time right now.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I will I will name two.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um one that's more internal and like work we can do within ourselves with God, and then the other one that's more external.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the first one in terms of just a posture shift.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean by that is like beginning to adjust our mindset or our the way in which we approach a situation.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the first one of those is beginning to shift our posture from one of lack to one of longing.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we think about the longing and we begin to feel like we are the outsider looking in, or we begin to feel like we have been rejected, or we're kind of aching for acceptance, it is really easy in those moments to feel those feelings because it often arrives as an ache.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to feel that as lack, as there is something deficient in me.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: But what I have found helpful is by kind of flipping that and say, this is not lack, but this is longing.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is an ache that is actually pointing me towards something very good, something very true about myself, which is when we're speaking about belonging, that I am a communal creature, that God made me in his image, in his likeness, to dwell in deep community with him and with other people.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that is good.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so by even just reframing the way that we look at the ache, we can begin to to bring a bring along an exhale, even if the situation doesn't change, like, oh, this is actually something very good in me.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it's helpful then as a practice to begin to look beneath the ache, begin to put words and name what it is we are longing for.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because I find that often it's very layered, and so the ache might arrive of I wasn't invited to that party.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why does that bother me so much?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I feel like maybe I wasn't wanted.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, why do you think that you're why is being wanted important to me?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because I I want to know that I am have significance, that I have something that peep other people find, you know, attractive or find um worthwhile.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then the there's that little part of me that goes, worthwhile, huh?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like at the bottom of that is that I want to know that I have worth, that that other people see that I have something to bring to the table.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so then when I get to like the bottom of that, I can begin then to talk with God about what it is then that I ache for.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: What is the what is the longing that I have at the root of that that says, I want to be known that I want to know that I have worth here.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so then, you know, that answer will be different for each of us.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's good to kind of get to the bottom of that and to name it and to name what the longing is.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it's perfectly outlines how we move from a scarcity mindset in our relationships to that abundant mindset, where it's not even where you're thinking small versus big, but you're thinking this maybe like less value to value and seeing seeing what that is, and like, okay, what is it the actual value here that I'm looking for or desiring?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of telling myself that I must not be worthy, how do we shift that?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, oh, it's so good, so practical.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other one that I think is really important for me right now is this posture shift from them to us.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is that we really easily tell ourselves stories that separate us and other people and place us in different categories.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not to say we don't have our differences because we for sure certainly.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we should.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we should.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like we were created with diversity by design.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: But when we allow our diversity to be something that causes division versus something that is to be celebrated, something that is to um to better expand and show us the multifaceted person of Jesus, the the the largeness of God.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that when we begin to make that a reason to pull away from one another, um, I think that we begin to lose sight of of what it is we do have in common, that us factor, the of what it means to be human.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: We lose sight of each other's humanity when we let those differences become a reason to step away.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and so by being able to shift our posture from them to us, of being able to remind ourselves what is true and what is good about us as humans helps us to remain tender, not only toward the the uh you know, humanity within ourselves and all the ways we're prone to error, but also the humanity in others.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, both the the mistakes that others can make and also the image-bearerness that they have.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um that remain that's that's true for all people.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's there.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Might be harder to see for some.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, yes.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: But it is there at the core of who that is the most truest truth about who they are, even if it has been buried and covered over.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think one of the ways, one of the practices then that helps me remain in that posture is being very aware of the stories that I'm telling myself about other people.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is very hard.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so it's key, but it is so incredibly hard because I think more often than not, it reveals a lot of ugliness and bias that I carry within myself.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it surprises me sometimes of like, oh, that, you know, it's like looking at one of those really those mirrors like like that show everything down to the poor.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who wants to see that?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's horrible.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no, thank you.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do not want one of those, especially if they have a ring light.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's the worst.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um though after 40, they are sort of helpful, just throwing that out there.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm after 40 and still avoiding it.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna avoid it.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, no, I'm avoiding it.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't want to see that.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, that's how that how it can feel of like looking in a in a mirror that has really magnified the like the really down to the poor things that we can very easily overlook in our day-to-day life.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think the more that we become aware of our stories, and the more that we can leave room for a more generous tale.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we're gonna assume, let's assume generous on the side of generosity.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's not a phrase that is mine.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Pastor Jay Kim said that once, and I just like took it and ran with it.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I always want to make sure that he gets he gets the products for that.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the more that I can tell, the more that I can leave room for a generous story while still being attentive to what is unfolding in front of me.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't think that turning a blind eye is all that's not what that means.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's being attentive, but remaining tender toward what is in front of us, toward the person in front of us.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it can be really helpful, not only to keeping us in a more welcoming stance toward other people, um, but it also leaves room for community and connection to grow in places we did not expect it.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's good.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is really powerful and important and even builds on the conversation that I had with Andy last week of when we're using discretion and discernment to build our table.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the process, we can still be generous with our inner narrative about the person, even while also um choosing that it's not right for us, and then vice versa, um, when we're not invited to the table or when we're told a no and how that looks.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh it's and sometimes I was gonna say too, like, and sometimes there have been times where I have actually had to put a pretty big boundary around myself and another person, um, especially like in the online world because.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because that boundary actually helps me to continue seeing that person as human than if I am comp constantly inundated by their thoughts or ideas and and things that make me not so generous of a person.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so it sometimes that space, that distance is good in that way.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: That we don't necessarily, but but it first becomes a it needs to start with the awareness of those stories and and what it is doing internally as we interact with that person.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is this loving?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, sometimes the most loving thing is to take a step back and and have some distance in order for our heart toward them to be in a more generous place.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's that's good.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: Such a great reminder and and really valuable.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as we just finish here, I'd like to have you share, is there anything that you didn't mention yet?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you want to give us a little bit more insight of what we can expect when we get the book and the interaction of it, and maybe it's just some of the hopes that you even have as uh it just continues to go out into the world and impact others.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think my hope for this book is that for those of us who have wrestled with belonging or find ourselves in a place of like acute loneliness, because I think that's a lot of us these days.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I hope the book feels like a gentle companion, that it is not, you know, five more things that you need to do to go find your friends, but that it is allowing you to kind of be where you are, to to name where you are, and begin then to not only to look outward in expectation that even right where I stand, even in the small, mundane ways, that there are ways to bel to belong to both place and people where I am without feeling like I have to stretch out beyond the limits of myself or the limits of my situation.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just hope it's a really gentle and I hope it's something to return to.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: I hope this is good.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because in this way of yeah, it's ongoing.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot tell you, like in in the days after the book came out, I had to go back to some of these postures and practices again and again because the like performance part of me really wanted to start.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I was wrestling with like, ooh, like who is sharing the book?
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that person didn't share the book.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, do they not like me?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do they not like all of these like neurotic things?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh human thoughts.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, my human, maybe not neurotic, but yes, very human, very like going back to gauging my belonging based on other people's reactions or non-reactions or silence or what they were saying.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so these are things that I continue to return to.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that as we as we all continue wrestling with what it means to be human and be human together, that it is something that we can kind of come back to and it feels like an exhale, that it feels like a settling.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um like I like even now, like I'm like, I can sense it in my chest, I can sense it in my shoulders of what it returns, what it feels like to return to that welcome we already carry.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then allowing that to kind of go with us as we take even teeny tiny toenail size steps forward.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, beautiful phrase.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: The welcome we already carry.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, thank you, Sarah.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: This was, I just so appreciate getting to have this conversation with you and to share it with others.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a timely message and a beautiful one.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so thank you for just an excellent job and continuing to foster this in your community as well.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate the invitation to be here and to chat with you and to talk about the table.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, me too.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you're welcome anytime.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: I hope as you finish this conversation with Sarah, that you remember that belonging isn't something you strive for.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: It is something you carry with you.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: The way belonging isn't a destination.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, it's a way of being, a posture of welcome that flows from knowing your identity in Christ.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so grateful that Sarah joined us today and offered her time.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, I hope that you would share it with a friend who might need some encouragement in their own journey to wholehearted belonging.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, I'd love for you to reach out to Sarah on Instagram and mention to her how much you enjoyed this conversation.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, if you've wondered how your personality type influences your approach to relationships, healing, or connection, schedule that free clarity or breakthrough call with me.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great way to gain insight into how you are wired and how your personality impacts the way you build your table.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, you want to check out the show notes to not only be able to connect with Sarah Westfall on Instagram, but also get her newest book, The Way of Belonging.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's such a beautiful book, and I can't wait to hear what you think of it.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you'll also find the list of exciting happenings within Simply Wholehearted.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: Next week, I'm excited to have a podcast guest favorite back on the podcast.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's been four years, but Dr.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: Mike Bechtel is coming back on to talk about his new book that fits perfectly within this series.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: His new book is called How to Read a Room.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I just appreciate his wisdom on all things relationships, but in particular, how we can continue to build our whole hearted table and have it not be just about us.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's great.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait for you to listen in.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: So until then, remember, my friend, we are all broken, we're all blowing it.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's the brave one who does something about it.