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Kristin Mitchell's Story: When Dating Hurts · Surviving-ISH Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: you, you, you, you.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I came across a story of a gentleman named Bill.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: I reached out to him.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: He responded immediately.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: We had great conversation.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: The story he's gonna tell it's a topic that we have Discussed, but not with this type of scenario.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: So, bill man, thank you so much for being here.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: Thank you, david.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: It's really great to Share my story with you, and your own personal story really is difficult to listen to, but then again, I know how you've come out and in a good spot.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: As much as best you can, as best anyone can, it doesn't leave you.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, I'm really happy to be able to share with your, you and your audience today.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we were talking before we even hit record that.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: One thing that just really impressed me with, with you and what you're doing, is we could say and we could feel sorry for ourselves, we could soul, we could get into a depression, we could find unhealthy ways to try to Medicate, which leads to destruction, or we can control the ugly that happened to us and hopefully turn it into something beautiful.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: And you are the author of when dating hurts, and then, after the book, you started a podcast called when dating hurts.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Am I right with the timeline?
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, it is, yeah, exactly.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: So why don't you give us a bit of an introduction, tell us a little bit about you and when you're at what you're doing?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I could start in about 50 different places.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: To be honest with you, let's see.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, up until the time I got a call from detectives on June 3rd 2005, we were a family of four my wife and I, my daughter, my son.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: My daughter had just graduated college 20 days before that, so the four of us were together for that.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: My son she was 21 at that time.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: My son was four years younger, so he was towards the end of high school at that time and everything was really in good shape.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, on the evening of June 3rd 2005, I got a call from local detectives who needed to meet with me and they said they needed to tell me something.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: Now, local to.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: I say local detectives because we live outside of Baltimore and my daughter at that time was just outside of Philadelphia where she went to school.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: She had a new apartment there.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: So, anyway, they met with me.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: I've met at a grocery store with them.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: I, they came to the house.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: No one was here.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: My wife and son were at someone's graduation party away from here.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: I was with my parents at a restaurant and I was driving back towards the house when I got this call to meet and they said they couldn't tell me over the phone what they needed to tell me.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: I had no idea what it was.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: So I got a parents worst nightmare, standing by the automatic doors of a grocery store when they said that Sorry to inform you, mr Mitchell, that your daughter, kristen, was murdered today by her boyfriend and, needless to say, you're on a different life trajectory, not knowing what any that would, any of that would bring.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: And the first thing that went through my mind was Having to tell family members.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: And the second thing was all those different parts that you would expect that would be coming, whether it's holidays or or getting married to somebody one day, grandchildren, whatever that is.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: I just kept.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: I thought of it is clicking circuits out of a circuit board, just flip flip, not going to see any of that stuff.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that evening was all about telling other family members.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: The next day was about Driving, searching for cemetery plot, visiting funeral homes, making arrangements and waiting them for them to eventually ship her Remains from Philadelphia down here.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: So we couldn't make a date until the medical examiner had been through what he had to do, all those things.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's a horrible nightmare and I Guess just through defense mechanisms you just keep plotting along.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: You just do that next thing you have to do and and try not to think about what actually happened to her.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: So that was the beginning, david, when you were talking about your mind just having to clip out everything that, obviously, everything that she was robbed of in and the beginning way to start of her life, and then you all were also robbed of so many things, and I'm sorry is not a big enough word.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: So when you were with the detectives, were they able to provide you enough information?
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And at the local grocery store, like their main?
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: thing was to tell me what happened and to then urge me to sit in one of their cars and Get on their phone and talk with a detective who was working the case in Philadelphia.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: So that's where I got a Lot of the information as to at least literally what happened.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, meaning she was stabbed to death in her apartment early this morning and he is being held, and I don't know really not a whole lot more than that.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: The, the detective I spoke with, had been to the scene in her apartment.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: He actually was the one that did an interview with the guy that killed my daughter that morning.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: The guy that killed my daughter Did what he did, which was he stabbed her 55 times, and then it appears to the medical examiner and those who know that he then self-inflicted a number of wounds To make it look like it was a self-defense situation.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, one of the things that he did was he slit his own throat and he possibly was trying to kill himself or possibly trying to make it look like the evidence was insurmountable that she started it or she tried to kill him and he just tried to defend himself.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I should add that she was maybe five, three and he's maybe six one and I had met him at the graduation the only time I had seen him, and he looked very strong.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: And I should also add that when I met him at the graduation and shook his hand when I first met him, of course I had no idea where this was going to go.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: My initial thought was I've never wanted to tangle with this guy and I've never had an impression of anybody like that that I actually pictured fighting this guy.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: So that was strange, very strange.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: She was 21,.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: He was 27 or eight at that time, so he was a full grown guy, wasn't just another college student.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: But so what happened was he was urged by his own family members when he called them and said that she started this fight and he had to defend himself and thought maybe she was dead.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: And he was still in the apartment when he called and they kept saying you should get to the hospital.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: If you were banged up that bad, you should go.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: So he did, and at the hospital they actually stitched his neck and worked on some of the other wounds.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: But the fact that they stitched his neck once a medical examiner got to him they couldn't say whether it was self-inflicted or not, because it had changed.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: It looked different because it's been worked on.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: But most people who study these types of things and after interviewing him were pretty sure that he did all of this to himself.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: And my daughter was not that type of person anyway.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: She was a type of person that her friend said actually is a compliment later on that she was a coward and that was their way of saying that she hated violence, that if something was going on, someone's yelling too much, she would just get out of there.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: So the idea that she started a fight or that she took a knife and went after him and he had to fight her off this total creation.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I had a whole long list of reasons why I threw myself eventually at giving speeches.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I was asked to give some of them, but I put myself in the position later on, once this guy was put in prison.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I can talk about that if you want to.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: But one of the reasons I put myself through that because early on it was difficult to get up and get speeches about it and to tell you the truth, not so much about the details of what happened.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I found it difficult to get up because when people would ask questions, they would ask questions about.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Why does dating violence happen?
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: Who does it happen to?
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: What is abuse?
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: What is domestic violence?
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: And I wasn't just because my daughter was killed didn't make me an authority on any of that stuff.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: I couldn't get up and talk about that.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I couldn't talk about halfway houses and I couldn't talk about why abusers abuse.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: And I was really.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: I wasn't afraid of questions.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: After a speech about what happened, I was hesitant, let's say, because I didn't want to fumble around or didn't have to keep turning to someone off to the side saying would you like to answer that?
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: So once I got to the point where I felt like I could answer any question that came my way, then that was good.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: One of the things, too, that I like about what you said about the fact that you survived.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: You could manage it back to the truth, your story back to the truth.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I found was happening in our case was I felt good that I could help to manage my daughter's legacy from girl does four years in college, gets a job at General Mills, is going to get a company car.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: She was going to be a junior sales associate.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: She didn't get some big, exact job, but she had a good start and she went through food marketing at her school, which was St Joseph's University of Philly, but it would have been wow, what a tragedy.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: She goes through four years, she graduates 20 days later this guy murders her end of story.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: What a sad story.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, what else have you got?
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: And I feel like part of what's happened then is her legacy has gone into her story, has helped and saved other people because we have used it to open doors for us.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of credibility comes when you're one step away from the person that was killed and if you know what happened and if you know how to talk about it.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: So, with that as giving me a lot of momentum, it's put me in a position where I can get up in front of a large group.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: I'll just add, I didn't plan to do this, but I was in New Orleans two weeks ago in front of 2000 people at a national conference for the national organization for victim assistance.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Normally, or in the past, I'd be pretty nervous about getting in front of 2000 people with the microphone on, but I loved it.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I really did, because I had them right there, palm on my hand, listening, because it's like this guy knows what he's talking about.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: This guy has been through the beginning, middle and end of this, yeah.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that people are starting to talk about trauma and mental health and these hard topics, because I don't feel as a society that we actually get to the core of the problem.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: We just put band-aids on things, right, let's put the sky in jail for a few days, but until you get to the core of these problems, then they're just band-aids and it doesn't take long for those band-aids to fall off.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I'm glad that you have spent 18 years and I'm sure will continue to do what you and your family are doing.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Was there any history that you all found out about this guy, like any previous assaults or anything?
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: That's a great question and I really mean that sincerely.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Yes is the answer, yes.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: Now, one of the things that Kristen, my daughter, learned about this guy, something like two weeks before he killed her, was that when he was like again 27 or eight, but 10 years prior to that, he and a friend who still was his friend when he was 27 or 28,.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: But he and a friend were down on their luck.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: They owed a lot of money to different people, so they robbed a bank.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: They robbed a bank in Delaware.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: They went in and they had it all planned out.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: They went in there and this guy walks in.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: I call him Nick in the books.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: I'll stay with Nick as the boyfriend, not his real name.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: He walks in with a pellet gun which, if you're on the receiving end of someone sticking a gun in your face, you're not thinking whoa, whoa, whoa, this is a pellet gun, this is not a real gun.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Besides, a pellet gun can kill you anyway.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: But anyhow, they robbed a bank and they got out with maybe 800 and they took off and they actually got away with it.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: So somewhere over the next two months he bumped into a guy, he took his half of the 800, went to Florida for a while and darned if he didn't run into a guy in a conversation in a bar where some guy he was actually on the run who had robbed some bank in Florida and got something like 30,000 or so.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: So that gave this guy, nick, the courage to go back and do it better this time.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: So he and his friend went and they robbed a different bank and I'm actually hard pressed to remember, but I feel like they got out of there with $18,000 or so again with the pellet gun.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: The problem is they took so much time sitting in a blue Camaro outside of the place that people in the town, in a small town, took down the description of the car and the license plate because they just felt why is this car sitting here?
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: Anyway, they went in, they came out and when the teller hit the button silent alarm.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Some people actually ran in and said I've got the description.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: And they got the car and he went to prison.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: He did five years federal prison.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: So he had only been out, I guess, about I don't know three or four years or so, and he was still on probation and things Okay.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: So that's one knock against him.
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: But after he was out he met up with a girl who he dated and he dated her for about a year and a half and he follows the pattern the template I call it that every abuser follows, which is that in the beginning it's usually storybook romance, everything's great, lavishing things on people and taking them out to eat and send them flowers and doing all kinds of stuff, and then it usually then comes into isolation, which is I don't like your friends and I really don't like your parents, and so it's like I guess if I'm with him, it's just he and I, but he loves me and maybe he'll come around or something.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Then there's usually threats of violence or some threats of some kind, and then oftentimes there's real violence.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: There's real slapping and pushing or punching or shoving or throwing things at you or kicking your dog or strangulation even Okay, that was taking place in that particular relationship, not with my daughter but this other woman.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: And then all the convincing apologies, stuff that came after buying her a puppy at one point, doing all kinds of stuff.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: And then we go back to storybook romance you got a puppy, or, if he smashed your phone, you buy a new one and he has this moment rough upbringing.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: He came up in a foster family.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Some of the stuff that he told her were complete lies.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Eventually they were separated because his probation there were stipulations in there about drug use and he was using drugs and actually she got to the point where she turned him in.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: She actually got in touch with his probation officer and said look, he's up to this stuff.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: And he said he's working his way through it.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: No, he's out.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: And she kept going to the probation officer and eventually said I'm going to go over your head if you don't do something.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: He went back and he did more time but he'd been out a few months when he was working in a restaurant and my daughter had a part-time job because she was still in school.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: At the restaurant she was a waitress, he was a bartender and that's how they met when a group of people went out and she thought he was all these wonderful things again.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: He was charming and he was this and that seemed very generous and nice and all that.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: And yeah, there's a pattern and there was.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: I found that later.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: So he was historically a bad guy.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: One of the tangents that I often find myself getting on that I became very passionate about is we are not a rehabilitating country.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: So he was in prison for five years and then in and out a couple of times, and no rehabilitation.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on the lack of rehabilitation and what would you have liked to have seen happen before, like when you heard the story of what led up?
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: to your daughter.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: I do know for this guy in prison that there are anger management classes and you are graded and you are asked to put your thoughts together or write things and the best we can put together, because they can't really tell us exactly what's going on with him.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: They can't, which is insane considering our relationship, so to speak.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: But whatever it is, I'm under the strong impression that he has.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Either he has failed the classes is what I'm trying to say.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: So why that is, I don't know, lack of participation or something I don't really know.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: They can't be that difficult, but he has failed and he really got 15 to 30 years he's already done.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: It's interesting how to exactly.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: I guess they do take prior time.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what I mean is that he was in a jail for most of the first year and then they put him in prison.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they do add all that together.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's done 18 of the 30, let's say and it's an annual thing.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: By the way, every year there are parole reviews.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: People call them parole hearings.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: They're not.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: They're actually reviews.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: Hearing means a judge is involved and in this case there's not.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: But anyway, finally, to answer your question, yeah, I would like to think that there are all kinds of classes and things, but I'm skeptical.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: I know they try in Pennsylvania to do these things.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I'm skeptical because I just don't know.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: A lot of these guys are con men.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: They know how to pass the test.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: That's why it's so surprising he's failed.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you go there and play along?
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: And they say, oh, look at that, he used to be one way, but boy, he got it.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: He aced this test.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: He knows exactly how to act and then he's probably laughing on the way out of the classroom.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: I don't really have a great answer for you for that, and I would say that when they're back in society, if that ever happens, he doesn't really deserve to be because he did murder somebody horribly and he'd probably do it again.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: And if he doesn't murder someone, he'll ruin their life.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: But I think that closer supervision from probation officers the leniency I've heard about from a lot of different people is appalling.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: They become friends with them.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm disappointed by all of that, whether it's in prison or out, when you're at the mercy of governors too.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Some governors want to move people out of prisons and look, if you did something when you were 20 and you're 85 and you're legally blind, yeah, come on out, you're probably not going to hurt too many people, wreck too many lives.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: So this guy is 27 or eight plus 18.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Is he 45 or so?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he could do a lot of damage.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit, if you don't mind, about the court and the trial.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And how did?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Obviously it remains an open wound.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: One of the points that you just said that really stuck with me, that I love to remind people, is when the judge hits the hammer it's not over.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: Oh no, you just move into a different chapter.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the court experience and how that went?
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, it went to a plea for one thing, so we did not go through a trial itself Okay.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: So that's like a whole different thing.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it was easy, but it was easier.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Now, the way it was aimed, the way it was going, was a couple of things that were already traumatic.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: One of them was that they figured it would be about a week-long trial.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: The defense it was actually a court-appointed defense lawyer, so he works for the state as much as our prosecutor works for the state.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: They work for the same company, so to speak, and he had worked as a defense lawyer and now excuse me had worked as a prosecutor before.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: He was a very experienced lawyer, intimidating, I mean, he was good and the people on our side knew him very well.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Anyway, so that's the lawyer, so he's not just some rookie taking a crack at it.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: So what they did was somewhere around I'd say a week or so, maybe three weeks before the trial was supposed to begin, they managed to get what's called a continuance, because that lawyer wanted to get further evidence.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: He wanted more DNA testing from pieces taken from the crime scene, and so that threw us into a place.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: And this is leading up to Christmas, this is three weeks before Christmas, which was already going to be plenty difficult.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: But what happens with the continuance is they don't say okay, so we won't do it the first week of December, which would have been pretty bad.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: They don't say okay, we'll start the first week of February.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: They don't tell you anything.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So we went through the holiday season in January and I believe in the February before we heard okay, now we have a new date.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: So they moved the trial date and I want to say I think that we're going to move it to June.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: It would have been practically right on the anniversary of her getting killed.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: That's how far they pushed that thing later.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: So we're like, oh my God, now we got.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: They moved the finish line Somewhere in the midst of it, though surprisingly, the guy that did it steps forward with he wants to plead.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: He's willing to plead to third degree, which would be 15 to 30 years, rather than go in and maybe lose on first degree and do life.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: That's why he did it.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: So that puts it on the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to decide whether they will accept it or not.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: And the Commonwealth said they would accept it, but they wanted to talk with the Mitchell family first.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: So my wife and I then had to go to Philadelphia and sit in a room with the district attorney and the prosecution team, including detectives who had worked the case, and we needed to go in and take.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: We're rookies, we don't know what we're doing amateurs.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I should say, and our job was to go in there and convince them to take the plea, to go ahead and take it Now.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: You might say, why wouldn't you want them to go away for life?
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that the woman who worked the case, who was our lead prosecutor, said you have to understand you could have all the evidence in the world and still not get the result you want.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: And she immediately said think of the OJ Simpson case.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Things can go wrong.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that we thought about was that you got a jury sitting there looking at this guy, say 28, and thinking, well, her life is gone, her life is ruined.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Why ruin two lives?
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: And by the time the defense and this guy put together a story as to what happened and what led up to that night, they could demonize her to the point where it's.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: I don't think killing somebody is a good idea, but, wow, maybe there is some truth in what this guy's saying.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: He did get injured on his arms and his neck and different things.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: So who's to say who did it?
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: So you just don't know.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: You don't know, you don't get the perfect jury and you're not necessarily going to get justice.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: So, anyway, we had to convince the prosecution team, and we did, and they said look, we'll go with what you want, mr and Mrs Mitchell, but you have to tell us you will never come back again and say you wish you had gone the other way.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: They didn't want us going to the press in six months or two years and saying, wow, these guys shouldn't have let us do this.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: So we've never done that.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: And that's not to say we haven't thought about it many times and wish you were in prison forever, especially when you start to get to this parole reviews.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: The other part of it is, though, in the courtroom, because you do still go into a courtroom, and it's like the plea and sentencing day.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: You already know what the sentencing is.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: You're not sitting there holding your breath saying when the judge spins the roulette wheel, what's the number of years that are coming.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: You already know it's 15 to 30.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: 15, meaning we start parole reviews at 15 every year after that until he's out.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: But anyhow, we get into that room that day, and whenever it's supposed to start, it doesn't, and what happens instead is that the defense lawyer is in and out of the room and in and out of the room and talking to our top lawyer, the prosecutor, and it's like what's happening?
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: And the prosecutor came over to the pew that we were sitting in, or whatever you call it, the row.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: We were sitting in there in the front and said our guy's thinking about backing out of this whole thing, he's thinking about going to trial anyway.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: He didn't want to go away for life.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: And she said these people do this.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: They get crazy at the end here because they're thinking I'm on the verge of being away for 15 years.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Anyway, he decided finally to get back into it and we got it done and we did get to get up and give our impact statements and he actually got up and he made a statement too, which I felt sorry for him For what he said.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: He talked about how much he loved Kristen and this is a shame and I'm sorry I did this and to the parents and to her friends and all those things.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: And so anyhow, when we got out of the courtroom, we're standing outside of the courtroom and that's just in a hallway there's some reporters, not like in a movie where there's 20 reporters yelling out questions.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: There's probably three people asking me things.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: But I said that I'm not at the point right now where I forgive him, but I'm working on it and I just said all these nice things.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: That probably sounded like what a great guy I am and I think for that moment I looked at him when he was standing there giving his testimony that he was the last person that was there with her.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Now, I just felt this connection to him for a moment.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: So I answered about two or three questions and the prosecutor, a woman, stepped up, held me, got arms around me, basically pulled me back from the reporters and she said okay, everybody, the Mitchell's have to drive home.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: It's been a long day.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: And she turned me around and basically read me the riot act about don't you ever feel sorry for that guy, don't you ever?
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: He's manipulated you just like he did your daughter.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: He ruined her life, he took everything from her and she gave me a blast and thank God she did.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was like for a moment I was under his spell, I admit it.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: So yeah.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: So we drove home exhausted, but we knew that we had at least 15 years of having some closure.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: Let's call it.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard so many people saying I can even personally relate to having that moment of feeling sorry or feeling some kind of emotion toward the bad guy.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Any sorrow I felt I'm over with.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Believe me, I'd look at him, let me put it this way His mind probably from birth.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: He was on some path, on some power and control path and over the course of time he added tools to that.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: He formed it into something.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: He paid attention to the wrong people, let's say.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: The way it's supposed to work is that you're not born an abuser, you're born a regular person who maybe has, as I said, power and control needs, and we all have that to some degree.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: You know when you're out of your element, you know when you're uncomfortable walking into a room and you know when you're comfortable walking into a room.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: In your life you get a little antsy before the big test, or playing that game or meeting new people, different things like that.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: And if you walked into a party every day of the week, you'd probably get to the point where it just becomes pretty normal.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: You have this thing.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: It's a confidence issue, it's a shyness issue, it's all these things.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: But we all handle it differently.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: We all find ways to cope in life.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Some people find ways to cope by throwing the first punch, so to speak.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: They lash out and then they go whoa, look, things are working my way, so you can go that route or not.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Most people don't go that route, but these people weaponize themselves over the course of time.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: They see that with some of their friends or maybe not nice people, what they do, and they think, boy, I want to do more of that, I'm going to use that language, I'm going to use that style, I'm going to dress that way, I'm going to push people around like that.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: And this guy clearly was that guy and he understood from the very beginning that, bringing the goodies or no, take my car, take my car.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: That kind of a guy that he would do those things is like, wow, what a great person.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: And it's not that.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Everybody in your life that you've met that does nice things is a predator by any stretch.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: But these people use it to suck you in and get you in the web, and once you're in the web, you find a very difficult time ever getting out of it.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Bottom line is I'll tell you who I feel sorry for.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: I don't feel sorry for me, I don't feel sorry for my family, I feel sorry for the next one, I feel sorry for the next Kristen Mitchell.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: I feel sorry for the next one that gets trapped, who gets lured in, sees the candy, takes a step forward.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Oh look, he has this, he has this and, wow, he's handsome.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: He goes to the gym all the time and this guy is like the Barbie and Ken story, like he's the Ken doll I've been looking for, not a reference to the movie, I didn't mean he's like that thing, it's like whoa, I'd like to be seen with him.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: So they get taken down that path with that thing and then they start to see who's really there.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: The mask slowly but surely slides off and they see the real person and a lot of people in my podcast it's the same thing over and over.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I feel like I'm listening to the same template of the same story.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: It's just the names, the faces, the actual stuff that takes place is a little bit different.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: But mostly I feel sorry for those this happens to and I feel those hitter already has happened to, and I feel sorry for the families of all those people and their friends.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: A lot of my daughter's friends went through therapy after this happened because they thought will you fall in love with somebody and then they do these things to you and they could kill you.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: I don't really think I want to have a boyfriend, or I don't think I want to have a girlfriend to some of her other friends, so I feel sorry for the next one.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Did his family ever reach out to you all?
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Was there ever any correspondence with them?
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Any apologies?
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I can make the answer short.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: The answer is no Big no.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: The only time I got a glimpse of anybody from the family was that first there's a preliminary hearing and that's just to determine if there's even a case here.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Of course there's a case in our case, but what could have been in there before it were two guys arguing over.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: He ran his lawn mower on my lawn, so anything can walk in that room.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: So there's that.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I saw the brother briefly in the back of the room wearing a suit and as soon as things were starting to wind down he was out of there.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: He didn't really, I'm sure, want any opportunity to talk with or anything.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: One time was it something that's called the formal arraignment.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: He was there in that, somewhere in the back of the courtroom.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: Formal arraignment is when they get up and say, okay, here are the charges First degree murders, third degree murder and use of a weapon or whatever it is.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: All these things they basically go through could be 20 things.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: Some will disappear by the time it ever makes it to a courtroom.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: The third time was the plea and sentencing that I talked about earlier.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: He was not there at that, so there were no family members.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: In fact they wanted to move that date.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: This is almost laughable.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: They wanted to move that date of the plea sentencing because his family was going to be traveling in Europe at that time.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: So they said and that they couldn't make it and it was decided too bad, we're going ahead with this.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: But no, they didn't know.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: I didn't get anything from them, any sort of admission or I'm so sorry and I don't know why my brother did it or whatever you would put in a script.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: And that's fine.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking it was going to happen.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, actually.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I'll give you one thing Is my daughter once called.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: From what was his cell phone?
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, now, this is about about a month or less before she was killed.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: She called me.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't recognize the number and I said who is this?
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: And she said dad, it's Kristen.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: I borrowed his phone because hers was in the bathroom and it slid into the sink.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: She drowned her phone.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: So I had that number and it occurred to me about a month after she was killed that I had this number.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: So I called it, figuring why doubt if he has a cell phone in jail and darn, if his sister didn't pick up.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Okay Now, she was a few years older than he, was not a lot, but a few and she was working at a nurse in a hospital up there.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: So she was like a good person, let's say so.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: We've spoke for I want to say a half an hour.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Strangest thing, I actually forgot about this, but she took the only position she could, even though she didn't know the call was coming, which was I'm so sorry about what happened.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: None of us really know what happened, none of us were in that room, but the two of them and she was full of sorrow at least she expressed it about what happened.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's the closest I ever came to having anything to do with them and I was the one that made the call, so I still have that number somewhere.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: It'd be interesting to see who picks up.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I would like to know your thoughts.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: Victim blaming is a real thing when you just made the comment and I went into part of the conversation with you and his sister, so maybe I'm thinking of it differently.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: But what didn't settle well with me is when you said we don't know what happened in that room.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, we do.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, we do know what happened.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: And so where I struggled with that comment which, granted, I was on a part of that conversation, it's just me creating a narrative in my head is if you're telling me we don't know what happened in that room, then you're saying there's a possibility that the deceased did something to deserve it.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: That is what that implies.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: Sure, I didn't hear anything directly that the defense was trying to victim blame her.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I'm sure what they needed to do to try to keep his time in prison or maybe to be lack of prison.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Maybe it would be one of these I don't know hung jury or situations, or whatever it is.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: He walks the situation.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I'm sure they would have gone into the type of person she was.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: I'm sure I would have looked at it like he bought her breakfast, lunch and dinner kind of stuff, which evidently he did.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: One of her friends told us you can look at that a couple of different ways, which is what a generous guy.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Or you could look at it like I did this and this for you.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: You owe me, don't you?
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Which is the way it really is in the real world of abuse.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: But I never really heard anything for certain that was coming our way, but I was assured it would be.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I should also add, by the way, if we'd gone to court, I wouldn't have been allowed in the courtroom ever.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Here's why because on the evening before she was killed, she and I exchanged emails back and forth.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: There was never a time in her four years in college that she and I wrote each other three emails in the same day.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: I write to her, she'd write to me.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I write to her, she'd write to me.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: That's the last 12 hours of her life, which is pretty amazing.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: She expressed in her last one, which I saw let's call it around midnight of June 2nd, the day before she died, at probably around 3 am of the next morning of June 3rd.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: I wrote to her and I was taking the high road because she was saying I was having a difficult time with him today.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: He was so annoying All these things that I wrote back and said she was trying to spend that particular day with two friends of hers from college, two guys that she graduated with because they had jobs and they were moving to Texas and New York.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: She spent a lot of time with them, therefore not around him.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: He was mad about that because he's a jealous guy, which is another warning sign.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: I took the dad high road thing and said look, he just needs to understand you have other friends and that you are boyfriend and girlfriend, these kinds of things.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: I didn't use those words.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, but so the fact that we wrote emails back and forth I was there for a potential witness can sit in the courtroom.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: So I had to be.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: Literally.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: If it had gone to trial, I would have been in a hotel room down the street with my phone sitting there and if they rang me over the course of what could have been three, four, five days, then I was supposed to walk down the street, come in there, they would ask me questions for, like I said, probably five minutes and then I'd have to leave.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Probably they would let me sit in the audience then, because I've already given testimony.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but for the most part it would have been my wife and son sitting in that courtroom with probably some friends while they're showing crime scene pictures on the projector.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: That's the way it was going and that's actually another one of the reasons why we weren't nuts about going to trial.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: But that wasn't the lead reason.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: The lead reason, by the way, for not going to trial was because we thought we didn't think we would ever get first degree on him, because there was no indication from anything we had heard over 10 months that he went there with intent to kill her.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: We think it's an argument that escalated and, unfortunately, arguments that escalate in kitchens that's the worst room you could pick, because there are sharp objects like steak knives, which is unfortunately what the weapon was.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: I would like to spend the next few minutes working on or discussing is this book, this podcast?
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: When dating hurts, tell us, when did you have that moment of I've got to do something, I've got to bring awareness, I've got to defend my daughter's legacy?
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Really, just start hitting it.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: The first thing that came along okay.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: So she was killed on June 3rd 2005.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: In November we were asked to come to a memorial service at her school, kind of one of these candlelight vigils where they say a lot of prayers and walk around, and it's a Jesuit school, so there is a bent towards religion and I have to say, when all this went down to me, it wasn't so much about religion or anything.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: It was just your relationship with life, relationship with why are we here.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: All of those things became a lot stronger.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: So you can call it God, I'm not about what brand you are.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: So anyway, but we were asked if we wanted to get up and talk at the memorial service, that we could.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to and my wife wanted to and my son.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: So we wrote our own parts and we they had other people there who from Washington, talking about domestic violence and all these thick statistics, and I'd say that they did it in the chapel and I'd say that there was probably a couple hundred people there and this person from Washington was supposed to speak for 10 or 15 minutes.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: She did 45 minutes and I was getting really antsy because I made a short video and I had a speech and my son had a speech, my wife had a speech and I thought, as soon as this woman stops, everybody's going to leave because it's a school night but it's a Thursday night and so anyway.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: But people stayed.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Part of the reason maybe is because I got up and bolted up and ran up and turned the video on and cranked the sound up.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: So oh, there's more because people didn't know.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Then we had the chance to speak and when we spoke separately that room was dead silent and they were hanging on every word.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: So when it was over we got a lot of hugs and that was so powerful and all these kinds of things and I thought pretty interesting that room was quiet.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: That made me think about giving talks.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: But again, I didn't know all the facts and figures and motivations behind domestic violence and things which I had a lot of homework I had to hurry up and do.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Very fortunately, I ran into a lot of domestic violence agency directors and counselors that I talked with and I said I need to know this stuff because I can't get up and talk if I can't answer questions.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I got a whole bunch of speeches over the course of time.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: I've probably given nearly 200 by now, but anyway, so that was 05.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: It was really about 10 years later that I started thinking about writing the book and I started in the summer of 2015.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: And the way I started was I wrote articles and put them on, linked in, and the response was positive.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't get tons of response, but I got a lot of comments and one of the ones after I put about the 12th article on there was why don't you stop writing these articles and why don't you write the book?
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: I got to work on it.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: It took about four years to do the book.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Didn't work on it every day, didn't really know if I'd pull it off, didn't know if I should get an agent, didn't know if I would self-publish, but I wound up self-publishing.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: I did that mostly because I was in control of when it would happen, what it would say.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: So I wrote the book, I formatted the book, I did the cover, I shot the cover and this is going to sound bad unless you've seen it I shot the cover with an iPhone.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Didn't go to some studio, although I have friends who have studios, so I did all that stuff and once I got the book out, wow, the response was fabulous and I thought, okay, I can't control when people ask me to give me speeches, the book's out.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: I felt like I lost a close friend because I'd had that book as this go-to for parts at least of four years.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: So I immediately did an e-book version, formatted that, which was a junior nightmare, but I got it out.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Then I started thinking what else can I do?
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: So I did the audiobook.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: So I read the whole book, edited the book, put it all together, found somebody to upload that I felt like I'd lost another friend.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: When that was out, what am I going to do?
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: And that's when I started getting the courage to try a podcast, I think, doing the e-book.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: After listening to my own voice and editing it, I was thinking I think it's passable.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: So the podcast.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: And so the book came out in 2020.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: So did the e-book.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: The audiobook was probably a year later, so I didn't immediately throw myself at that.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: And then the podcast has been about two and a half years ago beginning of 2021, I would say was the podcast.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: All of them are called when Dating Hurts, my website's whendatinghurtscom.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so much.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Like you, david, I keep feeding the beast and I'm very fortunate because I have survivors coming to me so I don't have to go after them nowadays.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I've been on some like with you, like today what we're doing.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: I've been on some large podcasts and that tends to get more people to come to me, which is nice and it's not a big ego trip.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: The more people that come to me, the more they can learn about dating and domestic violence and therefore maybe fend off the problem before it becomes a major part of your life, which is really important, david.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: The only statistic I'd like to throw in, which is quick is this one.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: It's the only one I ever use in speeches or anywhere I go, and it's the truth.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: And actually I think the number is actually larger than this, but the only statistic I use is that one in three women suffer serious physical violence in an intimate partner relationship.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: That's 33% of all women will suffer serious physical violence and an intimate partner relationship, and typically it happens between the ages of 16 and 24, but can happen to any woman at any age, and I've talked with 11 and 12 year olds before and after college speeches, and I would talk with people in their 60s and 70s who in some cases, experienced it and, in some cases, are continuing to experience it.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: I met a woman who was in a relationship like that the guy she dated and later her husband for 40 years.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine being physically and emotionally abused for four decades and eventually she got out of it and, like most people, you're thinking why'd you wait so long?
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: And if you heard her story, you'd say now I understand my community is growing.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's nice and everyone's just so great and so supportive.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: So I can't wait to get this episode out and thank you for being Kristen Mitchell's dad and keeping her legacy alive and doing some great things.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: David, look, thanks for asking me to come and speak on your show, and I was doing some research on your show and I don't know if you know this, but on at least through Apple Podcast, you have a 5.0.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: So you have the highest grade that you could possibly get and I'm holding on to this.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: You're not going to get to six, seven and eight and 10.
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: I'll go to five but you've got the 5.0.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: And a lot of people have chimed in with reviews, so I'm excited that you asked me to be on your show.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: You've got a successful podcast and a successful meaning that it really strikes people.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: They give you high grades as a host.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: They love the way you handle the guests that you have on the questions you ask, the follow ups, all of those things.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: I mean everything you'd ever want to hear is on there.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: So it's an honor to be now part of your team and please be part of mine.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, anytime.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: And see, guys, this is why I do things at nine o'clock on a Saturday morning, because I end on these notes that make me feel good and I've got productive things I've got to do today and now I'm going to do it on a high note.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: So this is why I do that Now everybody gets it.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Tell everybody where we can find your book, your podcast, and continue to follow and learn about you and Kristen.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, sure, in terms of the book itself, whether it's you want to go paperback, which is a six by nine paperback, it's not a little baby thing.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: Six by nine paperback is nicely done.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: The paperback, the ebook and the audiobook you can get through Amazon or Audible if you want to.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: But just go to.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: I just tell people to go to Amazon.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Put in when dating hurts, it'll take you right there.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: I look in there all the time and, by the way, if you like any of those, when you're reading them, please give me a star rating and if you have more time, give me some kind of review.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: You do not have to write a review to give a star rating, by the way, but I appreciate it because I think the star ratings encourage people, like any, like any endorsement, to maybe consider getting it.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: And it's something too that, by the way, you want to get it and read it.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: But you also want to give the book to someone else.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: You can give them the book you bought.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to necessarily make book sales here.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to improve and save lives.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: So that's that.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: The, as we said, the podcast is called when dating hurts.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: You can find it on, I'm sure, just like yours, david.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: Any of the most popular podcasts that are out there you'll find when dating hurts.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: It's easy.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: And if you want to get in touch for some reason or get my free newsletter, just go to when dating hurtscom.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: So it's all.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: When dating hurts, you don't have to put Bill Mitchell in.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: Just put when dating hurts and you'll find me.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm here to help.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: I really am.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I can't fix our situation.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: I can't physically bring Kristen back.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: She never left us.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Spiritually, I do feel her presence at times.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: If you read the book, you'll see what I mean, because it does include a miraculous situation in there that I defy anybody to call anything more than than a miracle.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: And that wraps up another powerful episode of surviving abuse.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: I want to extend my deepest gratitude to our incredible guests for sharing their transformative journey with us today.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Your bravery is an inspiration to us all.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: Before we go, I want to remind you to stay connected with us on our social media platforms.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok, where we will continue the conversation, share resources and provide support for survivors like you.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: Remember you're not alone.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: To all of our listeners, thank you for joining us again.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Your resilience and willingness to heal is what makes this community strong.
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: As we embark on this journey together, let's remember that there is life.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: After trauma, we can rise above it and create a future filled with hope and joy.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: Join us next week as we dive into the healing process and share more incredible stories of triumph and resilience.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: Until then, take care of yourself and remember you deserve love, you deserve happiness and, above all, you deserve an abundance of healing.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: Thank you for watching.