Latest / Beside Every Calling / Beside Every Calling | Episode 14 | Ministry Marriage Lessons After 36 Years

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Beside Every Calling | Episode 14 | Ministry Marriage Lessons After 36 Years · Beside Every Calling

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, a space for those walking beside a calling where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: I'm Debbie Daniels, and I'm Joe Barber.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: And today we're joined by two men who have spent decades leading, teaching, preaching, and serving the church around the world.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: Dr.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Scott Daniels, here on the screen, is currently serves as one of the six general superintendents of the Global Church of the Nazarene.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: But before that, he was a pastor, a professor, seminary dean, can't say that, author, and theologian.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_04: And Dr.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_04: Sam Barber serves as the Global Director of Nazarene Discipleship International after years of serving as a pastor, district superintendent, teacher, and mentor.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: But by most met by most measures, these two are highly accomplished leaders.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_04: But today we're talking to them not about leadership, but we're talking to them as husbands.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_04: We want to know what ministry looked like from their side of the marriage and what they needed from us, what they wish they had known earlier, and what they learned after decades of ministry and family life together.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_04: So, Scott and Sam, welcome to Beside Every Calling.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful to be here.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_04: We're happy you're here.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_04: All right, guys.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: Jill, do you want to ask the first question?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Sure, let's just dig in, and I'm sure we'll have more questions uh along the way.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: But what is something your spouse does um that makes your life or ministry better for I would say every single day, but just sometimes.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: What's something that maybe we do or have provided for you guys?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, uh a number of things, but I the two that come directly to mind, and people who know us well, they can answer this question easily too.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but Debbie is by far the more relational of the two of us.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: And uh she has always been uh the one that uh when I'm in my head, she's able to kind of notice the people and see things that I I didn't pay attention to or or don't see when I'm living in my head.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And she uh even in this role, uh we're far better as a team when we're together because she is so good at at uh relating to people, seeing people, um, blessing their lives, and and that's just been true in every place we've been in ministry.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think uh God put us together in in interesting ways.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Folks who know our stories know that I come from what I love to call a tribe of Nazarene Levites, just about everybody in my family are Nazarene ministers.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and Deb uh wasn't raised in the church and came to faith in her early 20s.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and early on, I realized uh I was in youth ministry when we first started out and then quickly moved to college ministry.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it was clear from the very beginning uh it was interesting.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, young people who grew up in the church and who were kind of bored with it.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: I understood them, and they've kind of frustrated Debbie because it felt like they had advantages that she didn't have.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and she so she was good at kind of speaking truth into their lives sometimes, and I was good at being patient with them.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: But then there was the kid who came from, you know, couldn't find Genesis to save their life, um, who she understood and can communicate with really well.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I had a hard time understanding or relating to that person who came from outside.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think uh over these 30 plus almost 40 years of ministry together, um that has continued to be uh a partnership that has been really good.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um she sees the she still, even though she's been in the church longer now than she was before she came to faith, um, she still sees the church through the eyes of somebody from the outside often and sees things that I miss because I've been such an insider for so long.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and likewise, I think there are times when I can um appreciate and understand some of the things that are still um, you know, are they not new to her anymore, but um but we've been a good partner, uh good partners in ministry in that way.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: The relational thing that Scott said about you, Debbie, I would definitely say about Jill.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, my my little one-liner, most places I go, if Jill's not with me, I usually say something like, I wish Jill was here because most people that meet her like me better.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because she she uh when we were district superintendents, I would say uh most of the churches we went to, particularly the small churches, by the time we left, and we were always the lap to last to leave, even at someone else's church, like we're waving goodbye to the pastor and we're still standing there because Jill's hugged everybody in the room.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, she just she just is naturally relational.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a huge a huge part of our ministry for sure.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I would say also, I I have never ever doubted Jill's um support, both in prayer uh for sure, because she uh she is constantly in prayer.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: But also just her support, just her encouragement.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: She's on my side, even probably a lot of times I've been way wrong, and she probably knew it, but she was willing to stand beside me and we would endure whatever the consequences were together.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I there's a ton more I can say, and probably I will before this podcast is over, but I would lead with those two the relational side and then just the absolute um unwavering support.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: So we should let listeners know that don't really know us because I've been looking at we did a roll call a couple months ago, and we truly have listeners from all over the globe, which is really exciting.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I had two different people contact me that aren't in the Nazarene denomination, and I wanted to welcome all of our listeners that don't understand the denomination and the roles you guys play, but they are still a spouse living beside a call.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_04: And it is a unique space.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: So describe to us why what would you want other pastors, like if they can get their spouse to listen to this or ministry leader to know about this journey and how we, the four of us, uh, I should also let our listeners know we are friends and we love chatting.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: So this might seem more like just an easy conversation than I hope it is.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: But what would you want other ministry leaders to know about their spouse?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, especially someone just starting out.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'll start on that one because I I think I made a mistake there early on.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I grew up similar to Scott in a in a pastor's home uh with lots of relatives who are Nazarene ministers.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I think I thought that I had a little leg up on how everything should go, like in the church and in in our home and and all of that.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there were some mistakes that I made early on by not trusting what Jill was feeling or saying.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And looking back, um I mean I don't remember an instance when she was wrong.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I I guess I would say she was right.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And if I had trusted in that early on, it would have made a bigger difference, a better it would have been better for us, probably in ministry.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: The other the other thing I think that would be helpful to know is it's awfully easy, I think, for our spouses to begin to feel somewhere down the list of priorities because the churches and many times it feels consuming and the problems feel really big, and even when there's not problems, just the responsibility of every seven days doing something over that that you're hoping is beneficial.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's awfully easy for our spouses and probably our children too to occasionally feel like we might be on the list, but we're way down on the priority list.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think and I hope in our latter years I've learned that that's a big mistake.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that that moving moving our relationship and all of that to the top is really the best way.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I heard myself say this one time, and every once in a while I say something I think, oh, that was pretty good.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: It must not have been for me.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: But we were doing this marriage uh breakout session at a I might have even been a Palcon.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I heard myself say, if your marriage fails um and and breaks apart, you don't need to worry about your ministry anymore because that's suffering terribly.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like so the the thought of putting our ministry ahead of our marriage is really a bad idea because if you don't have the marriage, you don't have the ministry anyway.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, that's that's my two cents.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think uh Deb and I and you guys too, Sam and Jill, we're both in a kind of transitional generation of ministry.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: So uh speaking from speaking from my experience, and and I uh so my grandparents uh were the first generation of Daniels in ministry, and and I love to tell the story that uh my great-grandmother had sent my grandfather off to and his little brother off to this little academy the Nazarene Church had started in Kansas.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so they probably had maybe two or three years of formal education before they came back to the ranch that my family didn't own, but they were working on.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and he had a call to ministry, and the DS came out and said, Harold, I hear you got a call to ministry, and I love this story.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: He said, You know, I've got a church for you if you can find a wife.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I I don't know why that was a requirement, but but part of it was when the DS came out, he was my grandfather was 18 years old.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I think part of it was he didn't want to unleash an 18-year-old on a church without somebody helping him.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And he wrote my grandmother a letter, and they had met.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: My grandmother's family uh did tent revivals, and he sent her a letter that my aunt still has that is unromantic.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh the way I understand the story, they did not hold hands or kiss.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: There was no, there were sparks maybe in the air between them during that camp.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: But he wrote her a letter that essentially says the DS will give me a church if you'll marry me.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: And they, and so the day after he turned 19, they got married and started pastoring their first church.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: But they were in that generation where neither of them really had formal education.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so my grandmother never worked outside of, I mean, my grandfather eventually became a DS and all that kind of stuff.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: And my grandmother probably was smarter than him and better writer and all that kind of stuff, and certainly could type, and he could not.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: So she became the district secretary, which they didn't have an office.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: The the district office was in the basement of my grandfather's house, uh parents' house, you know.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, but she never had a job outside of their ministry together.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think my mother, for the large for most of the part, um she and my dad got married after her sophomore year.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, she never finished her college degree.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: She had a few jobs here and there to kind of help us out financially, but all always part-time.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And her primary focus also was the church.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think Deb, and and I think some of my channels, so this is my confession.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of our challenges has been I was really attracted to Debbie in part because of her capabilities and how gifted she is.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, my imagination was largely shaped by, oh yeah, this is this is my career and our career together, and we'll just go wherever, wherever, like um, you know, your job is secondary to mine, and we'll just go.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you're our generation is kind of that transitional generation where most of us married.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, I'm the first generation who married some a wife who had a college degree.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and now I, as I ordain people in my new role, you know, I I want to say to those folks, like that generation has even continued more so.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that real hard conversations about not just what's the impact on our family in this move, but what's the impact on like what do you want to accomplish?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: What are your dreams?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: What are the things that you're doing?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think any more generationally, pastors uh have to kind of really have those conversations and think through where do we want to live?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how does this impact both of us?
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and I I struggled with that because that wasn't in my imagination.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I've had to kind of learn that along the way and didn't always do that very well.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I will say too, I was Debbie and I are both high achievers.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we took our strengths test and we were both we have an achiever in our top five.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: I remember the first time we took it, we met with a coach and he said, How do you guys live together?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like how do you and we were like, Well, it can be it can be contentious, but we get a lot done, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're gonna accomplish some things, but I think especially early on, and well, I still um I was so because I grew up in a pastor's family where we moved every four years, I I never had deep roots in in a particular place, and we've laughed together.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: I have an internal clock that after we've been somewhere four or five years, it's like it's time for a new adventure, right?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're supposed to fold up the tent and go.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's what we're supposed to do now.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like in my new job, this is killing her because she wants to put roots down, and we have we are somewhere two days, yeah, and we have to hug and love everybody, and she's great at that, but then we have to move on, and it's really, really challenging that that roots part is really, really challenging.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so the other part that I I would say to people is I was in such a hurry to get to the next adventure.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the time I did the the one that was the worst at this was I was teaching at SNU and I was pull I was invited to pulpit supply at Richardson like every other Sunday during the summer.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: I about the second or third week, and Debbie hadn't even gone to the church with me yet.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I would take a kid down with me because I'd stay in a hotel and and the and like Noah and I would go and he'd go swimming.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Sophie was a newborn.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we'd go swim in the pool, and yeah, Sophie was a newborn.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would drive down to Dallas.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, about the second or third week, one of the board members pulled me aside and said, We're interviewing people, but every time you leave, people say, Why aren't we interviewing him?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I don't know, why aren't you interviewing me?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so by the end of the summer, we ended up going to Richardson, but I I still I had signed a contract, so I felt bad.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I was gonna teach the first semester at SNU and kind of commute back and forth, and I moved Debbie and the kids down.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: That was so stupid.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like that was so unbelievably stupid.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_04: Say it one more time.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: No, it was really no, truly, it was stupid and it was unfair.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I was so anxious to get started.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, if I had it to do over again, I should have said to Richardson, I'm glad you're excited to have me, but I can't be there till January when we can all be together as a family.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: But instead, I moved her down, and it was, and so when I've when I have failed uh in our relationship, it's because I we haven't had hard enough conversations about what the impact is on both of us in this move.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then also I have gotten so anxious to get started in the next thing that I didn't give, and this is really more for my children as well as Debbie.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: I had I didn't give time to really think through what's the in the transitional impact on my children.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And part of that, again, not to excuse my bad behavior, but part of that was I grew up in a family where nobody considered my transition.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: I we just packed up and went.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't remember my parents ever coming in and having conversations saying, hey, we're well, we're moving to Oklahoma.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is that okay with you?
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like we were just we're moving to Oklahoma.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're moving to Seattle.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Where is that?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, you know, where and so um, and I think as the generations have changed, it's not just you, I think my grandparents and my parents should have probably done that more with each other.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but especially now, uh, where most of the people who are listening to this probably are married to somebody who also has a college degree, also has a job.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like these are really important conversations.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and praying through what's not just the impact on you and the ministry you feel called to, um, but what is what really is going to be the impact for you as a family.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and getting over the sense that I mean God, God can help that church, even if it's not you that goes there.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and it's not God will call you and lead you to some things that that may include risk and sacrifice on the on the part of the family, but he's not calling you to destroy your family or your relationship for the sake of the church.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and so you you want to do that at a speed that everybody can be involved in in that.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: And life is long and you don't have to get in a hurry.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I got in a hurry a lot.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Scott, Sam and I have talked many times about we see ourselves as uh the bridge, uh, like you mentioned, uh, from the generation before and hopefully the generation after us to say, okay, even to talk about hard stuff or even all of that, especially in our marriage and in ministry, because you know, they're like this that you can't really separate the two.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like this is the thing.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_03: And we we look back at his parents and even my my parents were lame, great layman in the church.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: My grandpa was uh a Nazarene pastor where they got voted on every year, you know, and just all of that kind of stuff.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, you know, no one we loved our family.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: We have a great family, but no one really we never saw anybody talking about some of that or even pouring into us to, hey, here's some guidance on you.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Might want to think about this with your marriage and ministry, or you might want to think about that because not because they didn't love us, I don't think at all, because they do love us, but they they weren't poured into that way.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: So they only did what they knew.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like even just having this conversation today with those that are listening will just break the ice and hopefully build that bridge even stronger for those that are coming behind us to carry on the call and the church and everything else to say, okay, when my marriage is healthy and when I can have these conversations with my spouse, the Lord is gonna bless that and call me to different places that um will fulfill fulfill you because he's made you that way.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: But I do see us as a bridge for sure in in this life.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I we honor my grandmother Edith.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, she was one of a kind and she was the class of the family, but she really did.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and I was even with some folks this week who knew my grandfather and knew he couldn't remember anybody's name.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And Edith would stand right next to him and and Harold, my grandfather would lean over and say, and she would whisper his name, yeah, and uh this is who those people are, right?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so he would not have succeeded without her, but but my wife and certainly my daughters-in-law and my daughter, they would admire her had they known her more, but they would not want to have emulated the her kind of being absorbed into my grandfather's orbit at the level that she was.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that just doesn't like I get that that doesn't work anymore.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so how how we how people navigate that together, I think is really one of the big challenges in uh for folks who are in ministry who are married.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I think this podcast is created because Jill and I both thought we wished we would have had help and someone speaking into us early on, um, things that would have really been helpful, but no one talks about it and still talks about it.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: So we we joke that both of you are gonna get fired because we keep talking about different things that we really think the church needs to talk about.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like there's all kinds of studies on pastoral health, and we're gonna interview Dr.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: Chris Adams, who is a wealth of knowledge on that.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but it's interesting, even Chris acknowledges that man, you can if the pastor cannot have a healthy family without us taking care of the spouse, but there's been very little research and very little money put into figuring out how do we help that spouse because he or she really does not only walk beside the call, but the family life.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: And if you can't come home from ministry and have a healthy family life, we all lose.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's just so important, but it is, yeah.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I do love his grandma, it was amazing.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_04: Edith was, oh, I loved her.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: He was one of kind, yeah.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say, and I don't know how many lay people will stumble across this podcast, but um I think churches are getting better at asking spouses questions about what do they need and what do they need in transition.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because and Richardson was lovely and they helped us, and some folks came alongside, and there were some really some wonderful people who helped.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember when we transitioned from Richardson to Pasadena, they asked specific questions of Debbie, like, what do you guys need as a family?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And one, I think one of the reasons that season is so dear to us is not just, I mean, we deeply love that church and it felt like home, and we we felt like we're the right people at the right time, but I looked Back and think about how our first six weeks there they did so many things, including saying you need to take these first six weeks, and you need you know, we'll be fine, but you need to help your family transition.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And they they gave us some things and gave us space to do some things.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, our kids, um, you know, my famous story that I love to tell is that um, you know, when we made moved to Oklahoma, I picked up Caleb one day from school and he said, Dad, I, you know, I've decided I don't want to go to heaven.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Well, that's some people have choices, but you don't.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm preaching him my best sermons on heaven for the next few stoplights, and he finally said, Okay, okay, dad, I'll go to heaven.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't want to move again.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, it's hard on your kids when you transition.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember Sophie, uh, we'd been in California like three or four weeks doing all these things that the church had gifted us to do to help transition.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And Sophie had a little friend down the street in Dallas who was just uh right her age, and they were dear friends.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And she made some comment about, oh, I really miss my friend, and someday I'm gonna move back to Texas and live with Taryn with my friend.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the three boys go, No way, we're never going back.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is you know, and and it wasn't a shot at Texas, it was just a statement of, oh, the church had really helped us transition and and make this home, and for them to have made it home and be excited to be there.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so for churches listening, churches are getting better at this, but some still are not very good.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And and churches can help.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to jump on that too, Scott.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, because I'm remembering it started for us even in a staff role when we moved to North Carolina.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can remember that they paid special attention to Ross and our son.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And they they they he wasn't just and family.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: That used to be his joke.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you get the Christmas card, Pastor Sam Jill and family.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: He was always and family.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: But they they identified him, they they gave him things specific to his likes.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, from that point on, we m we took a senior pastor a little while later and they produced this huge book and sent it to him of all the people in youth group.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, there was just constantly these these efforts.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then our you know, our move to Central Church was was very similar to what you're describing.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: They just bent over backwards to say, how can we help you feel like this is your home?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and and I don't know if this is I'm sure it's not a one-to-one correlation, but we look back at our time at Central Church, you guys look back at your time at Pasadena, and you say these were these were some of the greatest experiences we had.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them began really, really well.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if there are people, board members, whatever, listening, or maybe pastors want to just send this to their board.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, those things that you can do that really take more thought than money might just set things up for something really special.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: And it is you're exactly right, Sam.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that having my kids fall in love with Paznaz first was huge.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I think about there were precious people in that church that one sweet lady would come take Sophie and Jonah out for a happy meal and just them, but it was also giving me a two-hour break because we moved there with uh Sophie was four and Caleb was eighth grade on down.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: It was just a busy season, and Scott and I, like you guys, did we're doing everything at the church.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I just we look back on those, and it was, you're right, it's the love of that congregation that shaped and helped us love them so much, and then they loved us so well too.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny in my split life between academics and the church.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: I will say though, and if or if there are any university people listening to this, our our most difficult move uh was our move the first time we lived in Pasadena, and I went from staff member and faculty member to Zeus to SNOO.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: Universities are far worse at this.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like they don't think about you.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they like give you a key to your office and say, you know, the first faculty meeting will be August 28th.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you then, you know, and and they were just terrible.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And there was no, you know, a couple of faculty showed up to help us unload the truck, but apart from that, there was no transition plan, you know, and and you were kind of on your own.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: And so I will say, uh, even the worst church experience we've had was better than but I will say on that, for any faculty listening in one of our universities, that we really do see ministry as a team and a family.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: And that the time we had Caleb and Noah, and we would make cupcakes and come into Scott's class.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: And Noah and Caleb both work on a university today because they fell in love with the culture.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_04: And at the time it was Lauren Gresham was the president, and he he would be in with walking with his board of directors or all these people in his suit, and the boys would just go running across the thing to Lauren and jump in his arms because he was so kind and welcoming.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_04: They didn't care that he was the president and they were covered in mud or whatever we'd been playing.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I just think they once they realized, oh, we're coming in and they trusted our hearts that we're gonna love these students like a pastor, then everything switched there too.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't it interesting that the local church without maybe even verbiage to it, uh understands that.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: So what I'm what I'm saying is like when the call is on Sam's uh to the board, feels like the call to call Sam for an interview, uh, they invite me to come along and they interview me also.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know, so it's like, okay, so somehow the local church understands that this marriage and ministry is a team uh in ministry.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: Now, obviously, I've done a million different things in that role of uh being the spouse, but the local church somehow gets that, but doesn't know how to articulate it.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think the church in a as a whole under I mean, I think they get it, but they don't know how to articulate it.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but somehow it's just really interesting to me that the local church invites the spouse to come.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I and I get it because, you know, we all I'm gonna say some hard stuff here, but I, you know, you feel the pressure of the spouse a little bit because you can either support and hopefully bless and hopefully uh encourage that ministry, you know, along with that call that you're living in, where you're going, or you can just flat wreck it, you know, um, that we have we have seen that with different things around with our 36 years of marriage and everything.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: But so you want I think I don't know if all spouses know that, and I don't know if all pastors know that either.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: But I do believe the local church somehow in its DNA, they might not be able to articulate it, but they are inviting that lead pastor spouse to come uh to that interview.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: My dad, uh, when he was a DS, he was he would tell me all the time when he would meet with church boards, he would he said I would get really picky with them about language.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, you know, a board would want to say, well, you know, when we hire this new pastor, and my dad would say, You're not hiring a new pastor, you're calling a new, you're calling a new pastor.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a big difference.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and the difference is you're you're calling, you're inviting this pastor and their family to come and be part of the community.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I would say that's why transition, and sometimes transitions are necessary, even though we're not hiring and calling.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, you know, leadership fits don't work and there's need for transition.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: But even when that transition happens and is necessary, it's done with the realization we didn't hire this person, now we can fire them.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: We call them to be part of this community, and part of the reason this transition is so difficult is because they've become part of the community.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and we need to recognize this is really painful to uh to kind of separate oneself from this community that you've been invited to.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: But but yeah, and you're not just inviting the pastor, you're inviting their spouse, their family.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome to bringing them in.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, this may be too specific, too, but I would say to some of pastors and spouses who are out there who are part of district leadership teams.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, uh churches are good at this, but uh, you know, you've been a superintendent, I've been a superintendent.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh now we're even worse at that because um oftentimes districts are terrible at welcoming a new district superintendent and their spouse into the role because because it's no one's specific, it's no one's specific role to welcome and bring that transition.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: So then nobody does it.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, or they feel like you're at a level of leadership that then, oh, you'll figure out the transition, you know, kind of thing.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but sometimes people are in district advisory boards and those kinds of things also need to think through in those levels of leadership.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: How do we how do we welcome uh spouses into those roles too?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I think remembering to live out of a liturgy of abundance versus the myth of scarcity is huge.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_04: And and always, if we could be those people that do that, those of you listening, no matter who it is, how can you reach out and make someone else's life a little better in ministry, especially?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_04: And Jill and I talk about often this podcast, but it really a spouse listening to this wants to be involved in ministry, or you're not even listening to this podcast.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: So, those of you out there, we we are glad you're listening.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: And the four of us, uh, I would say we're midlife, but our son Jonah is continually reminding Scott and I there's no way we're living to 120.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_04: So we're on the down, we're on the downside.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_04: But we also, the four of us love ministry after 30 plus deck, you know, 30, 30 decades, they're 36 years for me and Scott in ministry.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_04: And so I thought we could close with what would be something you would tell that younger pastor starting out or that person, Sam, we weren't district superintendents, but that person that just got nominated for that.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_04: What what would you tell them on and their spouse that could be helpful as we are on this side giving back and hopefully sharing, because Scott and I constantly say, We wish we could go back and pastor, we would be so much better now because we have so much more knowledge.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that was said to Jill and I as we began this role uh was hey, enjoy this.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh man, that was really welcome because I feel the weight of this new role in our lives pretty heavily.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh someone just said, who's done who's done my role and Scott's is one of our former generals?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: He just said, Hey, I know this is a big deal for you, but just enjoy it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna have experiences that you never believe, and who knows how long this lasts.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So and I thought, well, that was wonderful.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I would say I think I would say that there's if there's no joy in in this thing that God has called you to do, something's amiss.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's not, you know, it's not rainbows and glitter all the time, but any ministry role isn't.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: But there needs to be a sense of of peace and joy in this opportunity that you have.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say enjoy.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think maybe the second thing, or maybe it's first, it doesn't matter, would be um family needs to take priority.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um spouse, children, if you have children, because it it is an all every ministry job, it doesn't matter what it is, it seems like it just swallows up or can swallow up our lives.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so building in boundaries and safeguards uh that's not an excuse to do dumb stuff, but reasonable boundaries and safeguards will will cause ministry to one, go well.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's kind of beside the point.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it will be faithful.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if we're faithful to our family in the first place, uh well in the second place after God, then then we are faithful and God can bless that.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Also, it preserves, I think, I think about the impact that some of my decisions had on our son, you know, as we were coming along.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just thank God that he still loves the church.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's fully aware.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: He sees all of the spots and wrinkles.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry for that hymn.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he sees all the spots and wrinkles in the church.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And yet he still loves it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: And he still wants to be a part of it.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I honestly I praise God for that because I I'm quite sure I didn't handle everything the way I should coming through with Jill or with him.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: But praise God that God's mercy and grace has covered that and and he's preserved him.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, family first and find the joy.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and part of finding the joy, um, I I think often these days about uh kind of what I learned intuitively from observing my dad in ministry.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I I will tell people often I don't remember my dad ever there were times I I remember my he and my mom talking in front of me about some of the challenges and things going on in the church.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like they hid that from me.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: But my dad never acted like the church uh he was obligated to receive things.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: I the the conversation I remember having is um I after I graduated from college, I went home for a couple of years, and that's where Deb and I met.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and I went home to be one of the youth ministers of my home church.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I was saying to my dad, boy, I hope somebody shows up today, you know, kind of thing.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: It was probably a Memorial Day weekend or something like that.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and my dad said, You know, son, you and I had to show up this morning.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: He goes, but isn't it credible?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like there'll probably be 800 people this morning who will show up this morning who had who do not have to come.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like they don't have to come, but they're gonna show up today because they sensed God calling.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, Yeah, they're gonna be folks who prepared, and even you know, you and I prepared hoping somebody would come, but they're gonna be there are Sunday school teachers who worked and prepared, hoping, hoping somebody shows up today, you know, and and and and for the most part, you know, we all have those moments.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: But for the most part, my dad kind of lived in ministry with that sense of not just joy, but the sense of what a privilege we have.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and he could he'd get really teary-eyed when he would talk about our family history, you know, because like truly everybody in my family are ministers, and he'd say, Isn't it incredible?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: None of us have ever had a real job.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have none of us have ever had a real job.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I will say about my dad, my dad had tremendous respect for people with real jobs, and he would say to me every once in a while, you know, you and I never have to go in and sit in a board, you know, sit in a kind of meeting where people are wanting to know about the profit margin or, you know, like why didn't we sell enough, you know, uh whatever this week.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but he would say, you know, say a tremendous tremendous respect for that.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: But he would also, I mean, get really teary and say, everything we have as a family is because God, through God's people, have been generous to us.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so, I mean, I I want to encourage people, and that there are times, and certainly, and I and sometimes I you know I see some of the online conversations about people who are so resentful about being misused by the church.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to doubt that.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we have our own stories to tell at times when you know congregation members or situations were just really hurtful, but the but as Debbie likes to say, that's 10% of it, 90% of it, if you'll keep your eyes focused on that 90%, 90% of it is incredible and it's beautiful, and it's really a privilege to get to do that.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: But that being said, too, I uh if I could go back to my younger self or talk to some younger self people, um, you know, I not only did I get in a hurry to try to kind of move along in ministry, um, but I remember, man, when we moved from SNU to Richardson, um, you know, I didn't make a ton of money at Richardson, but I made almost no money as a professor.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so I felt like we felt like we were so rich going from Snoo to Richardson that we bought a house that was bigger than we should have bought, and which was fine, except that we had to fill it with furniture we didn't have.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so, in some ways, we really put ourselves in financial pressure for about a decade because we got so anxious to to and we kind of kept getting ahead.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: I I it's my fault, we kept getting ahead of ourselves, and and then we didn't have any margin, we had some medical issues and all that kind of stuff, and so you know, just slow down a little bit, um, get some financial management um uh advice, get counseling when you need it, um, have good friends.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a myth that says you can't have good friends in your ministry.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I've had people tell me that in the past, and I just think you do need to guard your heart just a little bit and not trust everybody.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, our dearest friends, we still have when our kids get married, people from Richards show up.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: We, you know, some of my dearest friends are still from those SNU days, and that that's been 30 years now, 35 years now.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and and not everybody are your great friends from all of those places, but man, I'm so thankful that God gave us people along the journey who have walked with us and continue to walk with us and are are some of our best friends.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, you you have to you have to develop those kinds of relationships too.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and some of that can only come through vulnerability and people that you can trust that you can have levels of vulnerability with them.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: I I would say, first of all, just being a young pastor spouse, uh knowing what I know now, uh it and if a young pastor is listening or whatever, uh make sure you can just have conversations with each other, you know, because you're gonna grow in this together.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um Sam and I, I'm I we were just talking about it when we were sitting at the oil chain shop this morning.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, that, you know, neither one of us, I mean, Sam admitted, you know, he kind of had an idea like, I got this, you know, whatever.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: But through the years, we grew in ministry together because neither one of us had done it before.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we didn't, we didn't know.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: We were we were inexperienced and and we just had no idea.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_03: But the Lord in his grace just really grew us, um, grew us closer to him, of course, but grew us closer to each other as we were, as we were learning to maneuver grumpy people, uh hard situations, you know, just the whole gamut of everything of what what was happening.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: And um I would just say just make sure you can have a conversation, both both sides, just be open, you know, because I think when when you grow together uh where you are, uh whether it's an awkward conversation that someone needs to hear or just be aware of, just listen and see what we what I can learn, what he can learn, what we can grow in, what we can practice going forward.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, would would you agree with that, Sam?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just gonna ask.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I absolutely do.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I had asked for help and had a community of people who really that I trusted to speak into me.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I'd have done that much younger.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: It took me it took me probably 15 years in ministry, maybe longer, before I was I realized the power of a group of people who love you and you meet with regularly and you talk about hard things.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge thing that I want to say to young leaders.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Get people around you.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: Call them mentors if you want to, whatever, but that that will invest in you.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, Jill, as always, I agree with everything that you've said.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: I just wanted to get that out there.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just kidding.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just kidding.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_04: You know, thanks.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_04: I I think for me, I would even say to someone that didn't grow up in the church that finds themselves in this role that it's okay to say to your spouse, I wish, like Sam, I would have said it earlier, I wish I would have said it, hey Scott, this isn't working for me, but I just thought I had to endure it because that's what ministry is, and instead of having those hard conversations.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I would also say you have to get healthy.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you're in ministry, you need to be mentally healthy, spiritually healthy, physically healthy.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and you need to get the help because you can only give away what you have.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_04: And if you're not healthy, how are you going to give that away a healthy environment to your church or the community you're serving in or wherever that is?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_04: And so those for me, that would be it, and Jill knows I always say, and find your people.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: You have to find your people because that's so important to be in a group, the people that encourage you.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_04: You become like your people.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I think back to Scott and I early on, there was a couple that I absolutely love that we pastored, the Dardans.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I wanted we both said we're gonna grow old like them.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_04: And to this day, I hold us like we're gonna be positive and stay accountable.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like they they were just so precious and so positive about the church.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so they've been huge role models for us.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, if we start going negative or start feeling, you know, we're we we gotta be done.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we're we're just no bitterness.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: We just cannot do it.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, every piece of food that we've put in our mouth since we've been married, the church has provided.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: God, through the church, has provided, and we we just receive all those blessings from the church, and uh he's just been a healer, uh, provider, uh, guider, just the whole thing through this whole this whole thing.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_04: And you could get bitter or better in in every situation.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_04: So I would say that we would all looking back say, man, the church has been so good to us, but we have had hard seasons, and you can gotta get better and get what you need to get healthy to move on into a healthy space.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_04: I think the four of us should just chit-chat and enjoy life, and we're gonna close out this episode.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_04: So, guys, thank you for joining us and being our spouses.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and we have enjoyed this conversation.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: So, listeners, thank you for listening.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_04: And if this felt like something that you connected with, you if you could do us a favor and share it with one other ministry leader right now, just hit pause, share it so you can help us build this community of ministry spouses.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for joining us, everybody.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_04: Bye guys.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_04: If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_04: That's your sign.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_04: Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_04: And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review?
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_04: It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.