Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Teen Cheerleader Raped, Murdered, First of Several, PERP FAKES OUT COPS

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Teen Cheerleader Raped, Murdered, First of Several, PERP FAKES OUT COPS · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
0:12
Speaker 2: A gorgeous teen girl murdered and what does her murder
0:20
Speaker 2: have to do with a seemingly unrelated stabbing separated by
0:25
Speaker 2: time and distance. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
0:30
Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and
0:33
Speaker 2: Sirius XM one eleven. First of all, just who is
0:37
Speaker 2: Amy Hoffman? Take a listen to our friends at Crime
0:42
Speaker 2: online dot Com investigative reporter Dave Mack.
0:45
Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman came to the US when she was five
0:47
Speaker 3: years old from her native Korea. She was adopted by
0:50
Speaker 3: Florence Hoffman and her husband Frank. A friendly and sociable
0:53
Speaker 3: high school senior, Hoffman is a member of the cheerleading
0:55
Speaker 3: team at Parsippony Hills High School and dating a member
0:58
Speaker 3: of the football team. Works part time two nights a
1:01
Speaker 3: week at the Surprise Store, a women's clothing store in
1:03
Speaker 3: the local mall. The money she makes is going toward
1:06
Speaker 3: her college plans, studying to be a chiropractor.
1:09
Speaker 4: You know, I'm thinking about Amy Hoffman.
1:10
Speaker 2: This teen girl all excited about the chance to wear
1:15
Speaker 2: a crown and compete for I guess high school queen
1:21
Speaker 2: along with her boyfriend, A timely in life, when everything
1:25
Speaker 2: seemed good, everything seems right. You know, when you're at
1:30
Speaker 2: that young age, you don't think about forever, You don't
1:34
Speaker 2: even think about the next hour or mortality. But sadly
1:39
Speaker 2: her family was forced to think about it. With Me
1:41
Speaker 2: an all star panel to make sense of what we
1:43
Speaker 2: know right now? When was it noticed she was missing?
1:49
Speaker 2: Take a listen again to our forensic crime online.
1:51
Speaker 3: It's just a fifteen minute drive from the mall to
1:54
Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman's home in Parsipony in Morris County, New Jersey.
1:57
Speaker 3: When the teen doesn't get home close to her usual
2:00
Speaker 3: well ninety five pm time and she doesn't call to
2:02
Speaker 3: let her mom know she'll be late, Hoffman's mom, Florence,
2:06
Speaker 3: begins to worry. She drives to the mall but finds
2:09
Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman's abandoned car in the parking lot.
2:11
Speaker 2: Oh my stars, I can't even imagine looking for your
2:15
Speaker 2: child and then you find the car unlocked open but
2:21
Speaker 2: no child. With me it all star panel to make
2:23
Speaker 2: sense of what we know right now? First, I want
2:25
Speaker 2: to go to a very special guest joining us. It's
2:28
Speaker 2: Laurel Ivy, a cheerleading squad mate and classmate of Amy Hoffman's.
2:36
Speaker 4: Laurel, thank you for being with us.
2:38
Speaker 2: I know, no matter how many times you think about
2:40
Speaker 2: it or are asked about it, it never really takes
2:44
Speaker 2: away the pain of realizing Amy was missing.
2:50
Speaker 5: You're correct something that just you're for the rest of
2:54
Speaker 5: your life, You're You're always going to remember Laurel.
2:57
Speaker 4: When did you realize that Amy was even missing?
3:00
Speaker 5: The Wednesday morning, which was after she had been adducted
3:03
Speaker 5: the night before on.
3:04
Speaker 4: Tuesday, how did you find out?
3:06
Speaker 5: We were in school and it was going to be
3:09
Speaker 5: a half a day because it was the day before
3:12
Speaker 5: Thanksgiving and we were going to be having a pep rally,
3:16
Speaker 5: So we had we had practiced for the pep rally
3:19
Speaker 5: and for the course the Thanksgiving football game the day before,
3:23
Speaker 5: and you know, all of us went home, and so
3:26
Speaker 5: Wednesday morning, while we're in school, right before classes began
3:31
Speaker 5: homeroom began, one of my classmates, a fellow cheerleader, came
3:35
Speaker 5: to me and said, I don't know if we're going
3:38
Speaker 5: to be able to do the pep rally today because
3:40
Speaker 5: Amy's missing and she never came home last night. So
3:44
Speaker 5: at first, do you think there has to be a
3:46
Speaker 5: logical explanation you know, I mean, what does that mean?
3:49
Speaker 5: She's sick? She didn't whatever, But as the day progressed,
3:53
Speaker 5: we realized that it was more serious. And we didn't
3:57
Speaker 5: have texting back then, we didn't have cell phones, so
4:00
Speaker 5: it was you know, I attributed I compare it to
4:03
Speaker 5: like the telephone tab where you tell one student and
4:07
Speaker 5: then the next student, and before you know it, the
4:09
Speaker 5: entire school modes. Because we had a half day right
4:13
Speaker 5: after our pep rally, we just especially the senior class,
4:18
Speaker 5: we just all got into our cars and just went
4:21
Speaker 5: in groups as if we were going to find her
4:23
Speaker 5: on her own. But that's what we did.
4:25
Speaker 6: We just drove.
4:26
Speaker 5: We drove to the mall, We drove everywhere we could
4:28
Speaker 5: possibly think. It was horrific. It was horrific, horrific, and
4:33
Speaker 5: we were all, you know, seventeen eighteen year olds at
4:35
Speaker 5: the time.
4:36
Speaker 4: So did you see her car at the mall? I
4:39
Speaker 4: did not.
4:39
Speaker 5: I think it had been removed at the time, but
4:42
Speaker 5: we had heard that her keys were in the ignition,
4:45
Speaker 5: her purse was on the front seat, and the car
4:48
Speaker 5: door was open, so we knew that she had left work.
4:51
Speaker 5: We knew that she had not only gotten to her car,
4:55
Speaker 5: but I mean, you know, if you're starting your car
5:00
Speaker 5: and the keys are in the ignition, you're going to
5:01
Speaker 5: have your door closed exactly.
5:03
Speaker 4: Now.
5:03
Speaker 2: Where she worked at the Surprise store was that in
5:06
Speaker 2: them all?
5:06
Speaker 7: It was.
5:07
Speaker 5: It was a clothing store that was I guess kind
5:10
Speaker 5: of similar to like a gap, and she worked there
5:14
Speaker 5: a few days a week part time. So that particular
5:17
Speaker 5: day that she went missing, she had gone from school
5:20
Speaker 5: to cheerleading practice to that job and then she never
5:25
Speaker 5: came home that night.
5:26
Speaker 4: Tell me about her as a person.
5:29
Speaker 5: I mean, Amy was just the loveliest, sweetest person in
5:34
Speaker 5: the world. She would do anything for you. I know.
5:37
Speaker 5: You know, people often talk about deceased and they sort
5:41
Speaker 5: of glorify them, but in this case, it's just true.
5:45
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think she had one enemy that
5:48
Speaker 5: I can recall. Everybody liked her. She was just a sweet,
5:53
Speaker 5: fun person. I had known her since junior high and
5:58
Speaker 5: we had been cheerleaders together high school. We were very
6:02
Speaker 5: much looking forward to this game because it was going
6:05
Speaker 5: to be our last game on the football squad, so
6:10
Speaker 5: you know it was it was, you know, just unreal,
6:17
Speaker 5: you know, and just just very kind. Never would say
6:22
Speaker 5: a bad thing about anybody very popular.
6:25
Speaker 2: What was the competition where she would be wearing a crown?
6:28
Speaker 5: Oh well, it was homecoming day.
6:30
Speaker 2: So set to be on homecoming court when suddenly she disappears.
6:38
Speaker 2: Joining me another special guest, Julia Martin. I'm sure you've
6:41
Speaker 2: heard her name. Award winning staff writer for the Bergen Record,
6:44
Speaker 2: there in at Montclair Times and North Jersey dot Com.
6:49
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for being with us.
6:51
Speaker 2: Julia, tell me about the area where Amy goes missing.
6:55
Speaker 2: Big town, small town, suburb, high crime, low crime.
6:59
Speaker 4: Tell me about it.
7:00
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's a suburb. It's not definitely not a high
7:03
Speaker 8: crime and especially back then. You know, it's grown a
7:07
Speaker 8: lot since then. But you know, I think I don't
7:12
Speaker 8: think there are any murders there, And you know, I
7:16
Speaker 8: think it was faith and I think that's why she
7:17
Speaker 8: left the store and walked to her car by herself,
7:21
Speaker 8: and nobody from the store walked with her to make
7:24
Speaker 8: sure she was okay.
7:25
Speaker 2: Julia, you say it's a suburb, a suburb to what
7:29
Speaker 2: it's kind of a suburb to Marstown.
7:30
Speaker 9: I guess.
7:32
Speaker 8: You know there are people there who commute into the city.
7:35
Speaker 10: It's a fairly long commute.
7:37
Speaker 8: It would be like an hour train ride.
7:39
Speaker 2: So an hour train ride to New York close to Morristown,
7:44
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to figure out what kind of a.
7:45
Speaker 4: Mall it was.
7:47
Speaker 2: Did they have the big, fancy stores like Macy's.
7:52
Speaker 5: No, not at all. It was one of the first
7:54
Speaker 5: tourny malls ever built, and it was a very basic mall.
7:59
Speaker 5: It was almost like a strip mall. I mean, there
8:01
Speaker 5: are very few stores inside, and there was I think
8:03
Speaker 5: in McDonald's. That was pretty much it.
8:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Robert Crispin joining me, private investigator, former
8:08
Speaker 2: Federal Task Force for the DOJ, Department of Justice, also
8:13
Speaker 2: DEA in the Miami Field Division. Certainly never a lack
8:18
Speaker 2: of business there. Former homicide You can find them at
8:21
Speaker 2: Crispin Investigations dot com. Robert, thank you for being with us.
8:25
Speaker 2: The reason I'm asking the questions about the area because
8:29
Speaker 2: let's just take downtown NYC, New York City. Somebody goes missing, Oh,
8:35
Speaker 2: that could be any number of things.
8:37
Speaker 4: It's, you know, the capital of the world.
8:39
Speaker 2: There are millions of people from all over the world.
8:44
Speaker 4: It's high crime.
8:45
Speaker 2: There is all sorts of underground crime going on that.
8:50
Speaker 4: We don't necessarily see or hear about. Anything. Can happen there.
8:56
Speaker 2: You know, you know I took the twins skating Rockefeller
9:00
Speaker 2: Center this Christmas. Do you know even though John David,
9:03
Speaker 2: my son is six ' five and my daughter Lucy's
9:05
Speaker 2: five to three, I would not let them get on
9:08
Speaker 2: the subway. We did a lot of subway without me
9:11
Speaker 2: sitting right next to them with my hand on Lucy
9:16
Speaker 2: and looking at my six foot five son, because you
9:20
Speaker 2: don't know when something could happen or what it will be.
9:25
Speaker 4: Now, that's there.
9:26
Speaker 2: Where I grew up in unincorporated Bibb County, nothing was happening. Okay,
9:32
Speaker 2: you couldn't pay a criminal to come commit a crime.
9:34
Speaker 2: There was no store, no restaurant, no bank. There was
9:37
Speaker 2: really nothing. Now here we have a duality. We have
9:43
Speaker 2: Robert Crispin Morristown, which has a higher crime rate. Of course,
9:47
Speaker 2: in a suburb, you're an hour away from New York,
9:50
Speaker 2: that's a very quick train ride, and you've got a mall.
9:57
Speaker 2: But yet still it had that small town fell to it.
10:00
Speaker 2: So when a girl, this cheerleader girl disappears.
10:05
Speaker 4: You heard what Laurel said.
10:07
Speaker 2: Her car door opened, She went to school, went to cheerleading,
10:11
Speaker 2: went to work, left work, goes to her car. It
10:14
Speaker 2: couldn't have been a football field linked away, keys in ignission,
10:19
Speaker 2: purse on the seat, door.
10:22
Speaker 4: Open, hit it.
10:23
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean listen, it's got all the earmarks of
10:25
Speaker 6: something really going bad for those initial first responding officers.
10:29
Speaker 2: Okay, you know what, Crispin, I could say that, and
10:33
Speaker 2: I'm not a former DEA or DG. Tell me something
10:36
Speaker 2: more than it looks like something bad could have happened.
10:39
Speaker 2: What do you do first?
10:40
Speaker 6: Well, first of all, we're securing that crime scene in
10:42
Speaker 6: that car right.
10:43
Speaker 9: Attacking the parents.
10:44
Speaker 6: Yep, sure absolutely, because that crimes. That car is our
10:48
Speaker 6: initial crime scene. We're pulling fingerprints, were pulling, We're pulling
10:52
Speaker 6: whatever we can off that car because that's where all
10:55
Speaker 6: this started. Because nobody leaves their keys in the car.
10:58
Speaker 6: Nobody leaves their purse.
11:00
Speaker 2: No, and you're right, that's exactly what they did. First
11:03
Speaker 2: take a listen to our friend Dave mac.
11:06
Speaker 3: Police officers find the car door open on Amy Hoffman's
11:09
Speaker 3: abandoned car. Her backpack is inside, as is her pocketbook.
11:13
Speaker 3: The person along with her wallet is in the front seat,
11:15
Speaker 3: and the key is in the ignition. A co worker
11:18
Speaker 3: tells Florence Hoffman that Amy left the store around nine
11:20
Speaker 3: point thirty and headed to her car. A CA nine
11:23
Speaker 3: handler arrived to track Amy, but her sin goes called
11:26
Speaker 3: just two parking spaces away.
11:28
Speaker 2: And take a listen to our cut three. This is
11:30
Speaker 2: Detective Captain James Moore.
11:32
Speaker 11: Her vehicle was found in the parking lot not too
11:37
Speaker 11: far away from the store that she worked in, and
11:41
Speaker 11: the door was open on the card and there was
11:45
Speaker 11: a witness as she noticed a male way mail in
11:51
Speaker 11: a green Chevrolet that was parked a couple spots away
11:55
Speaker 11: from where Amy's car was, and he was just sitting
11:58
Speaker 11: there at the car at that time.
12:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't like that. Prime Stories with Nancy Grease
12:16
Speaker 1: joining me.
12:17
Speaker 2: Doctor Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist and you can find her
12:21
Speaker 2: at panther mitigation dot com. Author of criminal behavior and
12:26
Speaker 2: where a law on psychology intersect. Okay, I know your
12:30
Speaker 2: expertise is issues in legal psychology, but I don't have
12:33
Speaker 2: to figure out why anybody does anything because I'm not
12:37
Speaker 2: a shrink. But I'm curious, Doctor Sherry Schwartz, with all
12:41
Speaker 2: of your education, when you leave them all and you
12:45
Speaker 2: go to your car and there's a guy sitting there,
12:48
Speaker 2: not moving, not doing anything, you sitting behind the wheel
12:51
Speaker 2: of his car looking at you. I would just keep walking.
12:55
Speaker 2: I go, oh, just forgot something, and go right back
12:57
Speaker 2: into the mall.
12:58
Speaker 12: Yeah, just you is you know Amy, maybe either didn't
13:03
Speaker 12: take notice of him, or perhaps you know, she because
13:08
Speaker 12: she was in a very familiar place where nothing had
13:11
Speaker 12: ever happened to her before, she felt very safe.
13:15
Speaker 11: You know.
13:15
Speaker 12: So there's a number of things, that number of factors
13:19
Speaker 12: that can play here.
13:20
Speaker 2: And another thing at that young age. I mean, who
13:24
Speaker 2: on this panel are in this studio didn't speed in
13:27
Speaker 2: the car, or ride without a seat belt, or stay
13:30
Speaker 2: at a party where other people were smoking pot or
13:33
Speaker 2: drinking and everybody's underage.
13:34
Speaker 4: I didn't say you.
13:35
Speaker 2: Did it, just saying you do things at a young age.
13:40
Speaker 2: You don't notice things. You feel like you're gonna live forever.
13:43
Speaker 2: So it may have meant nothing to her. Witty Patrick
13:45
Speaker 2: joining me, California prosecutor and author of Red Flags. She's
13:48
Speaker 2: at wendypatrickphd dot com and she's on Today with doctor
13:52
Speaker 2: Wendy every Day CASEBQ. You have handled so many cases,
13:56
Speaker 2: as we all have. Teens, it's a whole nother They
14:00
Speaker 2: don't understand what they're doing.
14:02
Speaker 7: You know, it's true, Nancy, and doctor Schwartz hits on
14:04
Speaker 7: actually a section on my book called familiarity breeds contentment.
14:08
Speaker 7: In other words, if you're so used to just sort
14:10
Speaker 7: of going the same route every day, working parking lots,
14:14
Speaker 7: all the different places we went, you fail to appreciate
14:17
Speaker 7: the extent to which you might be in danger when
14:19
Speaker 7: you're actually leaving at night. There are shopping malls, remember
14:22
Speaker 7: shopping malls in the eighties, I mean usual places our
14:24
Speaker 7: parents dropped us off at to spend the afternoon so
14:27
Speaker 7: they could go do their thing. We never thought we
14:29
Speaker 7: were in danger when we were walking through shopping mall
14:31
Speaker 7: parking lots, but we still might have noticed if we've
14:35
Speaker 7: been paying attention someone loitering in their vehicle. Way back
14:39
Speaker 7: in the day where there were no cell phones and
14:40
Speaker 7: there was no texting involved, why would somebody simply be
14:43
Speaker 7: sitting there. So it's interesting that was something that was noticed.
14:45
Speaker 2: And you know, I want to go back to Julia Martin,
14:48
Speaker 2: but Julian hold on just one moment, guys, For the
14:52
Speaker 2: next days, there is an all out search for this beautiful,
14:57
Speaker 2: tame girl set to be on high coming court. They
15:03
Speaker 2: did everything possible to find her, including exactly what investigator
15:10
Speaker 2: Robert Crispin advised. Take a listen to our cut four.
15:15
Speaker 2: This is from the new detective.
15:18
Speaker 13: We search the vehicle, as we do routinely, for fingerprints,
15:23
Speaker 13: any type of items which may assist us in the
15:26
Speaker 13: missing person, but we ultimately didn't find anything.
15:30
Speaker 14: But that was about to change. Two days later, on
15:34
Speaker 14: Thanksgiving Day, a man out for an afternoon walk in
15:37
Speaker 14: a secluded area of Morris County, New Jersey made a
15:39
Speaker 14: startling discovery.
15:41
Speaker 2: That's right, Dave matt our friend at crime Online will
15:45
Speaker 2: tell us about that incut to be.
15:48
Speaker 3: Just two days later, around one pm on Thanksgiving Day,
15:51
Speaker 3: Amy Hoffman's body is found by a couple walking in
15:53
Speaker 3: their dog. The body is found face down in the
15:56
Speaker 3: water of a concrete holding tank in the Middenborough Water Reservoir.
16:00
Speaker 3: She's wearing the same clothes she was reported missing, in
16:02
Speaker 3: a brownish purple sweater, laid skirt and cowboy boots. Hoffman's
16:06
Speaker 3: death was violent. The medical examiner found multiple lacerations and
16:10
Speaker 3: stab wounds on her body. Her right hand had defensive
16:13
Speaker 3: wounds and her fingers were almost severed. The autopsy report
16:16
Speaker 3: records the cause of death to be exanguation secondary to
16:20
Speaker 3: stab wound on the right chest. Hoffman had also been raped.
16:23
Speaker 4: First of all.
16:24
Speaker 2: To doctor Jan Gorniac, renowned medical examiner, joining us out
16:29
Speaker 2: of Clark County, that's Vegas again, never lack of business there.
16:34
Speaker 2: Doctor Gorniac explained, what is sanguination.
16:38
Speaker 10: Excamination just literally means to bleed to death, excesses excessive bleeding.
16:43
Speaker 10: So when so and so as they exaginated, they lost
16:47
Speaker 10: a lot of blood enough to cause them to go
16:49
Speaker 10: into shock and then eventually dang.
16:52
Speaker 2: What we know is that authorities looking for her were
16:56
Speaker 2: alerted that a couple out walking their dog around on
17:00
Speaker 2: one PM, and this is on Thanksgiving Day when most
17:03
Speaker 2: people are just pushing back from the Thanksgiving Day table
17:06
Speaker 2: that would have been November twenty five, found her in
17:10
Speaker 2: a concrete holding tank in the Mendham Burrow Water Reservoir.
17:16
Speaker 2: They're in Randolph Township. As you know, she was laying
17:22
Speaker 2: face down in the water, still wearing all the clothing
17:26
Speaker 2: she had had on that day, right down to her
17:30
Speaker 2: cowboy boots, a plaid skirt, a purple sweater, face down,
17:34
Speaker 2: the same clothes she was reported missing in. Her parents
17:38
Speaker 2: knew exactly what she was wearing, and I find that
17:42
Speaker 2: really important to you. Robert Crispin, private Eye, I can
17:46
Speaker 2: tell you right now what John David and Lucy are wearing.
17:49
Speaker 4: I don't have to see them to know.
17:51
Speaker 2: I even know what color John David's underwear and socks
17:54
Speaker 2: are because I laid them out last night. Now, Lucy
17:57
Speaker 2: does not want me laying out her clothes, and I
18:00
Speaker 2: completely understand that, but I was very encouraged that the
18:05
Speaker 2: parents knew exactly what she had been wearing and could
18:09
Speaker 2: relay that information. That said, face down in a reservoir.
18:14
Speaker 2: I mean, you know immediately that's no accident, Roberts.
18:17
Speaker 6: Yeah. So this now becomes prime scene number two, and
18:21
Speaker 6: recovering her body from there is going to tell us
18:24
Speaker 6: so much. It's going to give us the cause or
18:27
Speaker 6: the apparent initial cause of her death. It's going to
18:32
Speaker 6: allow us to secure her clothes. It's going to allow
18:35
Speaker 6: us to get photographs that are going to help us
18:37
Speaker 6: down the road. Why is this all important Because once
18:40
Speaker 6: we develop the suspect, if we ever do, then the clothes,
18:44
Speaker 6: the fibers, the manner in which the clothes are potentially
18:50
Speaker 6: put back on the body, A lot of people who
18:52
Speaker 6: are sexually assaulted, sometimes their a fender is so nervous,
18:55
Speaker 6: he puts the clothes on backwards, he puts a shirt
18:58
Speaker 6: on backwards. He'll actually pulled pants and put them on backwards.
19:02
Speaker 6: This is all indications of where the investigator needs to
19:04
Speaker 6: start looking as to what happened to this victim. So
19:07
Speaker 6: crime scene number two is under.
19:09
Speaker 4: Full full go.
19:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting you mentioned that about putting
19:13
Speaker 2: clothes on wrong. I remember a case where the martyr
19:15
Speaker 2: victim had their clothes their underwear on backwards. A little
19:19
Speaker 2: girl had her underwear on backwards, and of course she
19:23
Speaker 2: would never have done that. You know, little clues like
19:27
Speaker 2: that tell us so much. I want to go back
19:29
Speaker 2: to our special guest, Laurel Ivy, who was a cheerleader
19:33
Speaker 2: and classmate of Amy Hoffman's. Laurel, do you remember when
19:37
Speaker 2: you learned that Amy's body had been found?
19:40
Speaker 5: Like it was yesterday, Nancy, one of the most horrible
19:44
Speaker 5: memories I've ever had in my life. She had not
19:48
Speaker 5: been made public after many hours after she had been discovered.
19:54
Speaker 5: So when I found out, it was about nine or
19:57
Speaker 5: ten o'clock at night on Thanksgiving, and it was a
20:01
Speaker 5: classmate that called the home my home, and my father
20:04
Speaker 5: picked up the call, and my father was in another
20:09
Speaker 5: room upstairs, and I was pretty much in a state
20:13
Speaker 5: of shop on the couch with my mother watching TV,
20:17
Speaker 5: just reliving, you know, everything about her being missing. And
20:21
Speaker 5: when my father started coming down the stairs, I just knew.
20:24
Speaker 5: And when he told me it was a shop that
20:27
Speaker 5: I'd never had in my entire life.
20:29
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that, Laurel, that you saw
20:31
Speaker 2: your dad coming down the stairs and you quote just me.
20:34
Speaker 5: I just knew because of the time that the phone
20:38
Speaker 5: rang at nine point thirty ten o'clock at night, I
20:44
Speaker 5: just knew there had to be news, and I just
20:46
Speaker 5: knew that I just knew it wasn't good. And I
20:50
Speaker 5: could tell he was taking his time to come downstairs
20:53
Speaker 5: and talk to me, and I just was in a
20:58
Speaker 5: state of shop. And when I saw his feet and
21:01
Speaker 5: he went over to the TV and turned it down
21:04
Speaker 5: and said, I have to talk to you, and I
21:07
Speaker 5: kind of I wasn't screaming, but at the time I
21:09
Speaker 5: started to, you know, yell, and I said, no, no, no,
21:12
Speaker 5: I don't want to hear what you have to say.
21:13
Speaker 5: And then, you know, then he looked directly at me,
21:16
Speaker 5: and he said they found her lourel and she's been sad.
21:20
Speaker 5: And I fell to my knees on the floor and
21:22
Speaker 5: all I can do is just remember screaming uncontrollably for
21:27
Speaker 5: I don't even know how long, in a state of shock.
21:32
Speaker 2: To doctor Sherry Schwartz joining us a forensic psychologist, Doctor
21:37
Speaker 2: Sherry Schwartz, and murder of your beloved at any point
21:42
Speaker 2: in your life is life changing. You're never the same
21:46
Speaker 2: person you were before. But when that happens to someone
21:52
Speaker 2: very young, why a laurel Ivy's case, she was a
21:55
Speaker 2: taen girl when she fis out her one of her
22:00
Speaker 2: best friends had been kidnapped and stabbed dead, it's life altering.
22:08
Speaker 4: It really changes the rest of the course of your life.
22:12
Speaker 4: I believe.
22:12
Speaker 2: Why is it that when that occurs to a friend,
22:17
Speaker 2: any beloved, it's so young in life, it seems to
22:21
Speaker 2: have an even greater impact.
22:23
Speaker 12: Well at that time, these who were kids in adolescence,
22:27
Speaker 12: in the height of adolescence. And this is a really
22:30
Speaker 12: critical developmental stage, right, This is a stage of development
22:36
Speaker 12: that's between your childhood. But you're not quite an adult.
22:39
Speaker 12: We know that the human brain isn't fully formed until
22:42
Speaker 12: sometime into the mid to late twenties. And so these
22:45
Speaker 12: are kids who are still developing to have such a
22:48
Speaker 12: significant trauma. And you're absolutely right, Nancy. It's a significant
22:52
Speaker 12: trauma at any age, but in this particular case, when
22:55
Speaker 12: you're talking about kids, it has an impact potentially on
23:00
Speaker 12: development into adulthood.
23:02
Speaker 2: Laurel Ivy, how do you believe that at least a
23:06
Speaker 2: murder affected your life?
23:10
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, it definitely mars the rest of
23:14
Speaker 5: your senior year, which is supposed to be the best
23:16
Speaker 5: year of your high school years. I mean, we went,
23:22
Speaker 5: most of my friends went from We couldn't wait for
23:24
Speaker 5: the year to have a celebrated all the milestones. Do
23:28
Speaker 5: you know, at to that point, we couldn't wait for
23:31
Speaker 5: the year to be over and put it behind us,
23:35
Speaker 5: which you never really do. You think that you can,
23:38
Speaker 5: but you really never do. And again, the significance of
23:41
Speaker 5: her being found on Thanksgiving, it's just a reminder for
23:45
Speaker 5: every single year that followed that every Thanksgiving is associated
23:49
Speaker 5: with that horrible, horrible, horrible day.
23:52
Speaker 2: Not only were her friends and family devastated, just imagine
23:56
Speaker 2: your golden girl gone in such gruesome manner, the community
24:01
Speaker 2: felt it as well, take a list an hour cut five.
24:04
Speaker 4: Captain Moore had a major impact on the community.
24:08
Speaker 11: Women were hesitant about going out on her own, especially
24:12
Speaker 11: at night. There was a couple walking their dog through
24:15
Speaker 11: the woods and it's an isolated area, it's like a
24:19
Speaker 11: lover's lane area, and they came across the body floating
24:23
Speaker 11: in the water. There was numerous slashes and stab wounds
24:28
Speaker 11: to her body and somewhere post mortem, meaning that after
24:32
Speaker 11: she had died, the sailance still continued to slash at
24:37
Speaker 11: her and cut her body.
24:40
Speaker 4: It was pretty gruesome too.
24:42
Speaker 2: Special guest doctor Jan gorniac Renow medical examiner joining us.
24:46
Speaker 2: So many questions. This young girl was slashed multiple times.
24:51
Speaker 2: I know you've seen that in your practice. We also
24:55
Speaker 2: know this Tanen girl, this little cheerleader, was brutally raped,
25:00
Speaker 2: yet her clothes have put back on her body. We
25:04
Speaker 2: also know that she was face down in water, contained
25:08
Speaker 2: in a reservoir. So how does all of that, especially
25:13
Speaker 2: being faced down in water, affect any chance of getting DNA.
25:19
Speaker 10: Oh, that's there's a lot of factors that can affect
25:23
Speaker 10: getting DNA. So obviously the condition of the body, the
25:29
Speaker 10: elements around because you know, like any evidence you can
25:35
Speaker 10: take into the scene and out of the scene. So
25:37
Speaker 10: whatever is in the water, right, can also lend to
25:42
Speaker 10: depositing and on the body. So the best way to
25:45
Speaker 10: get DNA is to actually, you know, when we do
25:48
Speaker 10: what we call the sexual assault kit is actually get
25:52
Speaker 10: samples from quote unquote within the body in the oral cavity,
25:56
Speaker 10: in vagina, mouth, vagina, the rectum, mouth, right, So being
26:03
Speaker 10: redressed that might be beneficial because it is in a
26:07
Speaker 10: way protecting the vaginal area, the anal region, so it's
26:13
Speaker 10: being covered. So there's a layer in between being faced down.
26:17
Speaker 4: In the water.
26:18
Speaker 10: That might be difficult getting samples from, say the mouth,
26:22
Speaker 10: because of all the water that might be going in
26:24
Speaker 10: and out of the mouth, because of the water in
26:27
Speaker 10: what's in the water. Same thing when we talk about
26:31
Speaker 10: fingernail scrapings, cutting the nails, combing hair. So there's a
26:36
Speaker 10: lot that goes into collecting of DNA from the body.
26:41
Speaker 10: But if you don't try, you're not going to find it. So,
26:45
Speaker 10: but the element and where the person is found and
26:48
Speaker 10: the condition of the body of their decomponent, the longer
26:53
Speaker 10: they they are out from that time of death until
26:57
Speaker 10: they're discovered, then that collection decreases.
27:02
Speaker 2: Joining right now a DNA expert, doctor Monty Miller, director
27:07
Speaker 2: of Forensic DNA Experts specializing in sex assaults and murder,
27:12
Speaker 2: former forensic scientists for the Texas Department of Public Safety.
27:16
Speaker 2: Doctor Miller, thank you for being with us. You know,
27:19
Speaker 2: doctor Jane Gorniac says, something highly highly probative. If there
27:25
Speaker 2: were objects in the water, like some of her clothing,
27:30
Speaker 2: including the clothing that have been put back on her,
27:32
Speaker 2: there's always a chance to get DNA from the clothing
27:35
Speaker 2: as well as body cavities. But let me ask you,
27:39
Speaker 2: doctor Miller, how is DNA treated when it's been degraded,
27:42
Speaker 2: when it has been exposed to the elements, say mud, dirt, water,
27:46
Speaker 2: can you still extract hopefully the killer's DNA, even if
27:51
Speaker 2: the DNA has been degraded, Well, hopefully you can.
27:53
Speaker 9: And it depends on how degraded it is. You know,
27:57
Speaker 9: you can get anything from a full profile, you know,
28:00
Speaker 9: all of their DNA to nothing. It just depends on,
28:04
Speaker 9: you know, how well it's how much it's been degraded.
28:07
Speaker 9: The water probably won't cause it to be degraded so
28:10
Speaker 9: much as it will wash it off, particularly if it's cold.
28:14
Speaker 9: Most of our bodily fluids are are the ones that
28:17
Speaker 9: carry DNA that we might find on somebody or going
28:20
Speaker 9: to you know, be washed off with the water. Those things,
28:25
Speaker 9: the DNA that's found internally on the body inside you know,
28:28
Speaker 9: the vaginal cavity or the rectum, you know, are really
28:31
Speaker 9: good places because those are not likely to have the
28:34
Speaker 9: water wash across them and wash it out as well.
28:38
Speaker 9: But you can still get DNA if it's degraded, if
28:40
Speaker 9: it's not too degraded. But I wouldn't think that over
28:44
Speaker 9: a short period of time that that would be a problem.
28:47
Speaker 2: Here, Doctor Monte Miller, again, DNA expert. What about touch
28:54
Speaker 2: DNA on the body or on clothing, if that is
28:58
Speaker 2: exposed to wash, do you lose.
29:00
Speaker 9: It most of the time, you will, you know, sperm
29:04
Speaker 9: sometimes will stick to clothing and things even through a
29:08
Speaker 9: wash cycle. So you might still be able to find
29:10
Speaker 9: sperm if you knew where to look, but most of
29:13
Speaker 9: the other skin cells and anything from touch DNA and
29:16
Speaker 9: anything like that would likely.
29:17
Speaker 2: Be gone, gone darn And given the remote location of
29:22
Speaker 2: the crime scene out of that reservoir, police believe the
29:26
Speaker 2: perpetrator was most likely a local who knew their way
29:30
Speaker 2: around the area. They did the right thing. They go
29:33
Speaker 2: straight back to the mall. Take a listen hour cut
29:36
Speaker 2: seven from the new Detective.
29:38
Speaker 14: Hoping for more information, police returned to the mall to
29:41
Speaker 14: question other employees. One woman stated that when she left
29:44
Speaker 14: the mall around nine pm, she saw a creepy looking
29:48
Speaker 14: man just sitting there in his car. She thought the
29:50
Speaker 14: vehicle was an old Chevy. She only caught a glimpse
29:53
Speaker 14: of the man's face. She could not offer police a
29:55
Speaker 14: detailed description. Investigators knew they would have to work quickly.
29:59
Speaker 13: We knew we had a major offender in our community.
30:02
Speaker 13: We knew we had somebody that was a predator. And
30:06
Speaker 13: what motivated me, as well as all the other law
30:09
Speaker 13: enforcement officers who worked in this case, is we had
30:12
Speaker 13: to capture this guy before he killed again.
30:15
Speaker 2: But could they catch the killer before he struck again?
30:19
Speaker 2: And trust me, statistically, this killer is a man. Take
30:24
Speaker 2: a listen now to our cut eight from Psychic Investigators.
30:29
Speaker 15: Eighteen year old student Damie Hoffman goes missing. Two days later,
30:33
Speaker 15: her mutilated body is discovered in a water retention tank.
30:37
Speaker 15: Police from all across the region are hunting down a
30:40
Speaker 15: brutal killer.
30:41
Speaker 11: The second victim was a girl named Ddre O'Brien who
30:44
Speaker 11: worked at a local restaurant and was heading home early in
30:50
Speaker 11: the morning.
30:50
Speaker 4: It was after midnight.
30:52
Speaker 11: She was forced off the road and abducted from her vehicle.
31:08
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.
31:12
Speaker 11: The second victim was a girl named Ddre O'Brien who
31:16
Speaker 11: worked at a local restaurant and was heading home early
31:21
Speaker 11: in the morning.
31:22
Speaker 4: It was after midnight.
31:24
Speaker 11: She was forced off the road and abducted from her vehicle.
31:28
Speaker 2: So now, Wendy Patrick, we're hearing about another young girl
31:33
Speaker 2: who had been in her car, who was forced out
31:36
Speaker 2: of her car, and now we're hearing about this being
31:38
Speaker 2: at a rest stop just a very short time after
31:43
Speaker 2: Amy was taken out of her car in the evening
31:47
Speaker 2: and at a public place. Seemingly the per had no
31:50
Speaker 2: problem with being watched. I mean, it's almost a fingerprint crime.
31:56
Speaker 7: It's becoming patterns make the predator. It looks like this
32:00
Speaker 7: is an abductor who is a local, knows areas where
32:03
Speaker 7: he may be able to get away with it easier,
32:06
Speaker 7: knows where to potentially dump the bodies, and that's the
32:09
Speaker 7: type of thing that investigators are going to use to
32:12
Speaker 7: then try to put these clues together and connect the dots. Absolutely,
32:15
Speaker 7: it looks like somebody that has a distinctive mo even
32:18
Speaker 7: if we just had these two incidents.
32:20
Speaker 2: Now we're talking about another young girl Didraw O'Brien and
32:25
Speaker 2: a very short distance away in Mindham Township. Take a
32:28
Speaker 2: listen to what Detective Captain James Moore has to say
32:31
Speaker 2: about this and our cut nine that didn't catch the
32:33
Speaker 2: killer the first time, and now they've got a second
32:36
Speaker 2: dead body later.
32:38
Speaker 11: Brought to Vesta on Rood eighty and Warren Township wish
32:42
Speaker 11: he was murdered. We are all very upset because now
32:45
Speaker 11: he had two grouesome homicides on our hands, and we
32:50
Speaker 11: had a feeling that the same individual was involved because
32:53
Speaker 11: the same type vehicle was seen leaving the scene of
32:57
Speaker 11: ddro O'Brien's homisoid.
33:00
Speaker 2: So now we have not one, but two attacks on
33:04
Speaker 2: young women. When you were looking at a case like this,
33:09
Speaker 2: let me go out to doctor Sherry Schwartz and you
33:11
Speaker 2: see startling similarities. What do you look at to determine
33:16
Speaker 2: as the same perp attack to both young girls.
33:20
Speaker 12: Well, one of the first things to look at would
33:22
Speaker 12: be the how they were killed. So if or how
33:26
Speaker 12: they were injured? Right, So was it by stabbing? Was
33:29
Speaker 12: it by strangulation? Were they both sexually assaulted? Were their
33:34
Speaker 12: bodies left in the same place maybe with the surviving
33:39
Speaker 12: victim who can help the police, like in the case
33:42
Speaker 12: of Ted Bundy. Was the way that they were approached
33:46
Speaker 12: by the perpetrator similar.
33:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just so many similarities out to you, Robert Crispin.
33:51
Speaker 2: They've got to realize these two may be connected, right totally.
33:55
Speaker 6: As soon as they got to that scene and they realized.
33:58
Speaker 6: You know, these guys who work these cases, these homicide
34:01
Speaker 6: guys or these major crime guys, you know, they see
34:05
Speaker 6: similarities as soon as they get there, and they're already
34:07
Speaker 6: processing in their mind that this is absolutely connected to
34:11
Speaker 6: the one we did last week. They just need to
34:13
Speaker 6: put it together. But I can tell you as soon
34:15
Speaker 6: as they got on scene from working these types of cases,
34:18
Speaker 6: their mind went right too. This is the second homicide
34:22
Speaker 6: involving the same.
34:23
Speaker 2: Person, and they must have felt awful. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor.
34:28
Speaker 2: They couldn't catch the guy. When Amy goes missing and
34:32
Speaker 2: has found dead, and now here's Deirdre, another young girl
34:36
Speaker 2: killed in very similar circumstances, a brutal death.
34:40
Speaker 7: I might add, oh, absolutely, And you know, a brutal death,
34:43
Speaker 7: you're going to start thinking.
34:44
Speaker 4: Of motive who would kill this way?
34:47
Speaker 7: You know, when you talk about post mortem injuries, flashing stabbings,
34:51
Speaker 7: I mean that speaks to rage, not just a crime
34:53
Speaker 7: of opportunity. So that one of the things that that
34:56
Speaker 7: does is really heightened this community fear and awareness that
34:59
Speaker 7: this somebody that's out of control and appears to be
35:02
Speaker 7: killing indiscriminately.
35:03
Speaker 2: And another thing I think they can deduce at this
35:05
Speaker 2: point that it's a random killer. In other words, I
35:08
Speaker 2: don't think the two women were connected in any way,
35:12
Speaker 2: and that means that one person has attacked two unconnected women,
35:17
Speaker 2: which may indicate he is unconnected to them as well
35:21
Speaker 2: and is killing at random, which is even scarier, much
35:25
Speaker 2: harder saw the case like that until believe it or not,
35:30
Speaker 2: a crack in the case, it basically falls on their heads.
35:34
Speaker 2: Take a list an hour cut twelve from the new detective.
35:36
Speaker 14: The suspect and his vehicle matched the description of the
35:39
Speaker 14: suspect in the Amy Hoffmann case. With only tiny synthetic
35:42
Speaker 14: fibers recovered from Deirdre O'Brien's clothing. Investigators went to the
35:46
Speaker 14: site where she had been abducted to search for more clues.
35:49
Speaker 14: They found a tire track left in the dirt. It
35:52
Speaker 14: was photographed and then a cast was carefully made. While
35:55
Speaker 14: the tread was only one potential clue, it was the strongest.
36:00
Speaker 13: Most energy was put onto the tire track itself because
36:03
Speaker 13: we could see where its location approximately four feet from
36:07
Speaker 13: the victim's vehicle. That was probably the suspects tire and
36:11
Speaker 13: we've heard.
36:11
Speaker 4: A lot about that type of evidence. In the Idaho case.
36:15
Speaker 2: Were tire track castings taken from outside the crime scene
36:20
Speaker 2: where four young students were murdered. Tire casting tried and true.
36:25
Speaker 2: Here is the break take a list to our cut fourteen.
36:28
Speaker 11: They responded to a home in Marstown where an individual
36:32
Speaker 11: had been stabbed. While they were at the scene, one
36:35
Speaker 11: of the officers noticed the green Chevrolet sitting in the
36:39
Speaker 11: driveway and it matched the description of the vehicle we
36:43
Speaker 11: were looking for, so they called for the forensic team
36:46
Speaker 11: to come to the scene to check this vehicle out.
36:52
Speaker 11: As it turned out, they found the tire in the
36:54
Speaker 11: car matched the imprint that was found at DJ O'Brien's subduction. Subsequently,
37:00
Speaker 11: the individual was the best choice with the two homicides.
37:03
Speaker 2: So straight back to our DNA expert. Extraordinary joining Us
37:07
Speaker 2: talked to Monte Miller, forensic DNA expert.
37:11
Speaker 4: Doctor Miller.
37:13
Speaker 2: We hear fiber evidence was taken off Diadri's clothing fiber evidents.
37:18
Speaker 4: What is fiber evidence?
37:20
Speaker 9: So, fibers are all of the different things that we
37:23
Speaker 9: make our clothing and carpets and other things out of.
37:28
Speaker 9: They're very distinct. Some of them are are rare and
37:31
Speaker 9: others of them are rather common. They have distinctive shapes
37:36
Speaker 9: and sizes and colors. They look different under certain kinds
37:42
Speaker 9: of light and things like that, so they can be identified.
37:45
Speaker 9: You can't tell for sure that they're, you know, from
37:48
Speaker 9: the same source. You know, if you have there from
37:50
Speaker 9: a carpet in a car. There are lots of cars
37:53
Speaker 9: likely that have that carpet or in your house. But
37:56
Speaker 9: it certainly is a credible way to connect people to
38:00
Speaker 9: potentially being in the trunk of a car or being
38:02
Speaker 9: in someone else's car, just because fibers and those things
38:06
Speaker 9: do transfer when we're get around.
38:08
Speaker 2: Yeah. The similar case is that Wayne Williams prosecution in
38:11
Speaker 2: Atlanta for the murders of many young boys and teen boys.
38:17
Speaker 2: Fiber from his car and his home carpet found on
38:20
Speaker 2: nearly every single murder victim.
38:23
Speaker 4: So what do we do now?
38:25
Speaker 2: We look back at the dying words of dead or
38:28
Speaker 2: take a listen to hour cut eleven from crime Online.
38:31
Speaker 3: Two weeks after Amy Hoffman was murdered, a truck driver
38:34
Speaker 3: parked at arrest stop twenty minutes from the Morris County
38:36
Speaker 3: Mall was jolted from his sleep. A terrified young woman
38:40
Speaker 3: was begging for help. She was bleeding badly and barely
38:44
Speaker 3: clinging to life. The truck driver called police, though she
38:47
Speaker 3: lost a lot of blood. Twenty five year old Dedra
38:49
Speaker 3: O'Brien was still conscious when the paramedics arrived. She told
38:53
Speaker 3: the authorities that less than a mile from her home,
38:56
Speaker 3: a car forced her off the road. The driver brandished
38:59
Speaker 3: a knife and worcester into his car, an old Chevy.
39:02
Speaker 3: He drove her to the rest stop, sexually assaulted her,
39:05
Speaker 3: and then stabbed her repeatedly. Deirdre O'Brien would not survive
39:09
Speaker 3: her injuries. She died at the hospital, but not before
39:12
Speaker 3: giving a description of her killer.
39:14
Speaker 2: Giving a description of her killer. Let's let Sergeant first
39:19
Speaker 2: Class William Hughes shed a little more light on what
39:22
Speaker 2: happened to port Deirdre Take a Listen hour cut ten.
39:25
Speaker 13: The only thing that stopped him from continuing with his
39:29
Speaker 13: attempt to sectually assault her was the fact that there
39:31
Speaker 13: was a truck parked in the rest area a little
39:33
Speaker 13: ahead of him.
39:34
Speaker 11: Had enough and didn't want to be bothered with her anymore,
39:37
Speaker 11: so he stabbed her and threw out of the car
39:40
Speaker 11: and then drove off. And that's when de Drew had
39:43
Speaker 11: enough strength to pick herself up and go through the
39:46
Speaker 11: truck to knock on the door of getting help from
39:50
Speaker 11: the truck driver.
39:50
Speaker 2: What Deirdre lived through the sex assault, the stabbing, she
39:55
Speaker 2: managed to give a description. Believing the part was a
39:59
Speaker 2: low and based on Deirdre's description, cops are led to
40:04
Speaker 2: a guy James Kadatic Take a Listen at Our cut thirteen.
40:09
Speaker 3: As investigators race to identify a suspect before he could
40:12
Speaker 3: strike again, another stabbing was reported. This time the victim
40:16
Speaker 3: was a man, but the details were familiar. Thirty four
40:19
Speaker 3: year old James Kodadic told police while he was driving
40:22
Speaker 3: he was pulled over by an early model Chevy with
40:24
Speaker 3: a flashing blue light on the dash. The driver of
40:27
Speaker 3: the other car pulled him out of his vehicle and
40:29
Speaker 3: stabbed him. Kodadic fought off his attacker and fled to
40:33
Speaker 3: his mother's house. His description of the assailant resembled the
40:36
Speaker 3: murderer at large. To police, James, Kodadic was fortunate his
40:40
Speaker 3: wounds were not serious.
40:41
Speaker 2: Wow, he claimed he was stabbed, but amazingly he lived
40:46
Speaker 2: and what a story. He tells police. He was followed
40:50
Speaker 2: by ominously by a car that had blue lights. The
40:54
Speaker 2: stabbings were mostly superficial, and he's matching the description from
41:00
Speaker 2: Edra take us an our cut fifteen from the new detective.
41:03
Speaker 13: We believed that he thought the police might have had
41:06
Speaker 13: an idea or we're looking at him as a suspect
41:09
Speaker 13: in a case, which we weren't. But that's why we
41:13
Speaker 13: believed he made this particular scenario up.
41:18
Speaker 14: But Kodadich's planned backfired and led investigators right to him.
41:24
Speaker 14: Based on the evidence, police believed that Kodadic prowled for
41:27
Speaker 14: vulnerable women to abduct, molest, and kill. For the murders
41:31
Speaker 14: of Amy Huffman and Deirdre O'Brien. James Kodatch was sentenced
41:35
Speaker 14: to ninety five years to.
41:37
Speaker 2: E lrel Ivy, cheerleader and classmate, along with Amy, the
41:44
Speaker 2: first of two victims that we know of. How did
41:49
Speaker 2: you feel when Kadatic was found guilty.
41:52
Speaker 5: The actual trial didn't happen until years later. I was
41:56
Speaker 5: already in college, but there was a two week period
42:01
Speaker 5: between the two girls murders, and after Amy had been
42:07
Speaker 5: murdered and found, there was this panic among our community
42:14
Speaker 5: about was it as target to the cheerleaders, you know,
42:18
Speaker 5: and so for that period of time, and the police
42:23
Speaker 5: asked us not to wear like our cheerleading jackets out
42:26
Speaker 5: in public or to you know, our parents wouldn't let
42:29
Speaker 5: us like I had a part time job, and my
42:31
Speaker 5: parents wouldn't let me drive to my job at night.
42:34
Speaker 5: They would pick me up and drive me home. And
42:36
Speaker 5: we were very, very very terrified because her killer was
42:40
Speaker 5: still at large. It was, and then after Geirdri's murder,
42:46
Speaker 5: now you have two and so now you really believe
42:49
Speaker 5: that there's a serial killer out there, which I had
42:52
Speaker 5: never even known what a serial Cilip was at that
42:54
Speaker 5: time when I was seventeen, So it was even more
42:59
Speaker 5: he was convicted or he was arrested for Girder's murder. First,
43:04
Speaker 5: it was I guess some time passed before they were
43:07
Speaker 5: sure that he had been connected to Amy's murder. So
43:11
Speaker 5: there was still a kind of period of time where
43:14
Speaker 5: we were not completely sure that James Caudatage had been
43:19
Speaker 5: apprehended for Amy's murder. We weren't sure if her murder
43:23
Speaker 5: was still at large.
43:24
Speaker 2: Kadata sentenced remains behind mars, but of course he is
43:30
Speaker 2: now trying to file even more appeals, most likely a
43:34
Speaker 2: habeas corpus insisting the DNA recovered from Amy would prove
43:42
Speaker 2: he did not rape and murder her. You know what,
43:45
Speaker 2: I wish they would grant that so the DNA could
43:49
Speaker 2: prove him guilty once and for all.
43:51
Speaker 4: Regarding Amy. We wait as justice unfolds.
43:56
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace Crime's story, signing off, did my friend you