Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / Finding the Words with Hayley Watson — Empowering Struggling Students Through Guided Conversations

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Finding the Words with Hayley Watson — Empowering Struggling Students Through Guided Conversations · The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders

• [00:00:00] Ross Romano: Welcome again, everyone. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Be Podcast Network. Thanks, as always, for being with us. And thank you for joining a great conversation here about topics that are really interesting and important to me. And I'm sure it's all of you out there that are working in schools. My guest today is Dr. Hayley Watson. She is a clinical psychologist who holds a PhD in school bullying interventions, along with four further degrees in the field of mental health. Haley has been creating and delivering programs for youth and practitioners across the U.S., Canada, the U. K., and Australia for the past 20 years, and she is the founder and CEO of Open Parachute, a Tier 1 K 12 [00:01:00] curriculum program that supports the mental health of students, teachers, and parents. Her book is called Finding the Words, Empowering Struggling Students Through Guided Conversations. Hayley, welcome to the show. Dr. Hayley Watson: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Ross Romano: I wanted to start with something that I think we'll contextualize what this book's about and how it sort of fits into the hands of those who will use it, which is, in your definition, What is the job of an educator? Dr. Hayley Watson: Great question. So I would say the job of an educator is to educate our young people. And when I say the word educate and when I think of educate, there's of course curriculum. That's what we typically comes to mind. But what I think is the most valuable and incredible role that educators fulfill is really the education of our children as human beings. How do we [00:02:00] create. Humans that are fully engaged and able to thrive in their lives, and that's a big ask, and that's a thing that you can look at in a job. You can look at in all different ways, but I think educators do a brilliant job of this because of the relationships they form. because of the communication and interactions they have. And so it's really about educating that whole human. How do we make sure that we're not just getting them across the finish line of high school, but how do we make sure that when they are out in the world, they are kind and compassionate human beings. Ross Romano: Yeah. And so kind of with that in mind, but then drilling down on what the book is as, as best as you can, what is the one sentence goal of this book? Like to tell a potential reader When you pick this book up, this is what it's going to help you do. Dr. Hayley Watson: So as an educator, this book helps you [00:03:00] have difficult or awkward or slightly challenging conversations with students who are struggling with their mental health in some capacity. And I think it's important, I know you said one sentence, but that's hard for me, to qualify that just a little bit with This is not about becoming a psychologist or a therapist or having to fix or change any of the challenges students are facing. It's really about the fact that educators are faced with these circumstances that their students are facing every single day. And in order to be able to feel okay in that role, and to feel safe in that role, and to feel not overwhelmed with that as an educator, this book is designed to empower For those moments where it's that question, what do I say? I know this student is really struggling or is really sad or just lost someone or something's going on at home, but I don't know what to say. So either I don't say anything at all and then feel bad [00:04:00] about it, or I say something and I'm not sure if it was the right thing. thing, or there's this whole stress that is involved in that for educators. And so the goal is to empower educators to say, here's some simple things you can say that you know are helping. And so that not only does that help the educator, but also students then have multiple adults in their lives that are supporting them. Not again, not being their therapist, but really just saying those few things that they need in those moments when they need them most. (ad here) Ross Romano: Yeah. And your answer about having a few of the right things to say to, to support students who are struggling in some way with their mental health leads naturally into, I think, an important question, which is what is mental health? And I think the evolution of societal understanding of that as. taking a positive trajectory, but I almost wonder in some ways if it has gotten so broad that sometimes it's hard to [00:05:00] track exactly what it refers to when we really are paying close attention to the words we use in those terms and understanding that it's something that impacts everybody, that it's not just siloed off or it this specific set of disorders, right? But at the same time that it, the words mean something. So, can you kind of define that so that everybody listening is on the same page? Dr. Hayley Watson: yes. And I really love everything you were saying there. When I use the term mental health, it's not about diagnoses. It's not about separating people based on certain qualities or characteristics, and exactly as you said, mental health is something we all have. And so when we're talking about someone struggling with their mental health, it's the natural response as a human being. when we face something hard for our mind to do something. Sometimes the something that our mind [00:06:00] does is helpful because we've learned a few strategies. And sometimes that something that our mind does is unhelpful because we're in a fight or flight response. We're panicked. We don't have the resources to support ourselves. And the things we do in that state are mental health reactions. So maybe that's, We suppress our feelings and we don't say anything about it because we don't think we can. Maybe that's we lash out and we get angry. Maybe it's that we think everything's terrible and we have nothing, we can't help ourselves. Or maybe we just freeze and panic. There's so many different things that we do. Sometimes we people please. So sometimes the students that look completely fine are really struggling because their response when they're under stress is to pretend everything's fine. So it's almost less about what it looks like and trying to figure out what is what's the issue or how can I understand it? We don't really need to do that necessarily, especially as educators. It's more about that recognition. You're a human and you're facing [00:07:00] something hard and you're having a reaction in your mind about it. And so That's mental health. And again, sometimes it's really positive reactions, sometimes it's really unhelpful reactions. None of it's bad or good in a judgmental sense because we all do it, but it's about how do we help navigate and help teach students that when their mind is doing something unhelpful, there are tools and strategies to make a more helpful choice. Ross Romano: Are there particular signs or elements of mental health that are most relevant to students at their whether it's at kind of particular age cohorts or as they're going through school that are most critical for educators, parents, other adults in their lives to be paying attention to. That helps to narrow it down even a little more because I'm sure when we're talking about adolescence or all these things that are happening it doesn't necessarily mean [00:08:00] that everything happening with students is unique only to kids, but I'm sure there are things that are most common You know, happening more, more frequently with students as compared to adults or other people. Dr. Hayley Watson: Definitely. So I think there's a few things, and a lot of it is related to peer challenges, because it is, it's a, when you think about as an adult imagine your whole life is dictated and you have to go somewhere where you don't necessarily No, everyone or you have to go to a new job every few years or you're in this huge group of people that you might not get along with and you're kind of forced to socialize with them. That's what it's like for students. So there's a lot of things that come out of those peer group challenges. And then also, there's a lot of things that come out of just the stress of school. You know, it's not An easy place for a lot of students. And so those two big challenges, and then of course, things that are happening at home. [00:09:00] And so, what does that look like for students and their mental health? One of the things that can happen is students, of course, can get quite anxious. So, and that's, again, not unique to young people, but the things they're anxious about. This is where anxiety often starts because it's that what are people thinking about me? And that's really at that age, developmentally, young people are really primed to be looking to their peer groups because that's their safety network. And so there is that, Fear that starts developing of I need to impress my peers, and I need to be acceptable to them, and that can look like worry and those kinds of things. It can also look like changing to try to fit in which is another symptom of anxiety doing people pleasing, doing things that your friends are doing, and even sometimes that can be unkind actions. You know, there's someone in my peer group that's being really mean to someone else and I'm going to join in because I'm anxious about that and I want to please them. So there's all of those pieces around [00:10:00] it. Then there's sort of that low mood and isolation. And again, adults experience this too, but it can be a similar thing. Especially poignant for young people, especially with social media and this whole experience of I'm alone, and I'm not loved, and I'm not valued and I'm not respected, that can be really strong for young people, and especially because they've never So as adults, we've gone through low periods and we've come out the other side often for most of us, of course some adults are really in a low period and they haven't come out of it. And that's also really devastating. But for young people, they really have not, they haven't had these experiences to know that things will pass. And so this is why we get these devastating outcomes where students take their own life or they have these tragic experiences because It feels so all encompassing, the rejection that they feel just because kids at school don't like them or are being rude to them. And we look at that and go don't you know that you're loved in all these [00:11:00] other ways? And maybe there's also struggles at home, etc. But even just that pure rejection, They don't know that they're loved if everyone, if they show up at school and everyone's mean to them, they don't have that life experience to say, Hey, maybe this is just, these aren't my people and I need to find my people somewhere else. So that becomes a really difficult challenge. And then this stuff can come out interpersonally as well. So kids can get picked on a lot because they're feeling so low about themselves. And they're sort of kids pick up on that, other kids pick up on that, and it's an easy target. And then other kids are mean because they don't know what else to do with those feelings and those sadness, and so they're projecting it onto other people. So these are some of, again, it's a lot around that peer group. And then when you talk about sort of education challenges, that can also look very different. So when a student is struggling with school, Sometimes that means they're not paying attention and they're not focusing and that's what it looks like and that you see that a lot.[00:12:00] Sometimes it means they start acting out. Sometimes they start avoiding school. This is really important. Kids that look like they don't care, look like they just couldn't care less about school or skipping school. That's usually because they're not paying attention. Something in school is really hard and it's scary for them and it's confronting for them, and it makes them feel like they're not smart enough and those kinds of things. So again there's so many things that can be happening, but those are some of the key ones that we see a lot in students. Ross Romano: Yeah, he's certainly identified some important ones and also I think adds more understanding around how to find the right words, have the right things to say to navigate between being in the classroom. actually helpful without being dismissive, without . Ross Romano: Reading the wrong thing into it, right? And there's a lot of things that when we get to a certain age of adulthood and we look back and say all that stuff [00:13:00] that I was so worried about back then Dr. Hayley Watson: Yeah. Ross Romano: doesn't matter at all, right? By the time you're 22 or 25 or you'll never think about it again. But at that moment, it's your only experience. You don't have a different perspective and it's the rare teenager who has that. level of self certainty to think, I'm not worried about this. It's really common, but you know, I think for an adult to just say, eh, none of this stuff's going to matter in the future, that's not really going to necessarily strike the right tone either. Dr. Hayley Watson: yeah, exactly. And oftentimes that's the case. The thing that we naturally kind of comes to mind is not necessarily the thing that's going to be the most helpful. And so that's where educators get stuck because they might sense that and go, well, I don't know. I'm not trained in this. I'm not sure. Or but really, the only thing they're missing is that framework, just like we all know some basic CPR so when we're in, we're at the scene of a crime, or I'm sorry, I [00:14:00] say crime because I have a criminology background, if we're at the scene of an emergency, we do have a few things that we can draw on in that moment, but if we haven't taken CPR we have no idea, and we would just freeze and panic, or just do something that's wildly unhelpful. Same thing with with mental health and so that's the purpose of this book to give just this basic framework so that in those moments a few words can pop into your mind because you've read them and you've looked at them and you engage in them and you go all right okay i do know that there is a couple things i can say here not to fix the whole situation but just to help in this moment to get them to the next moment where they can help themselves more. Ross Romano: Yeah. So within the framework, the structure of the book, we'll get into some of the specifics, some of how it breaks down, but as far as getting there, like getting to the point of feeling like one can engage with this. What are some of the internal hurdles that educators typically need to overcome to feel like I am qualified to [00:15:00] do what my part in this is, right? I'm not a mental health professional, but as far some of the basics of being able to support students with with their mental health and being able to at least play a role in that and have some awareness of it. What are some of, I guess, the limiting beliefs to address there? Some of the things that you would push back against and say, no, you, like, you can do this, you are qualified, and here's what that looks like. Dr. Hayley Watson: Yeah, great question. So I think the biggest one comes in the terminology of mental health. So when you hear the word mental health as an educator, even as a parent, all of a sudden there's these alarm bells that go off because there's sort of this big unknown. And we do have quote unquote experts, which again, I'm a psychologist, so I would be in that camp of these are the people that have had all this training, and they're the only ones. And that's, I would say, a limiting belief in our culture. [00:16:00] So it's not the fault of you as an educator, or you as a parent, or us as adults, that we To think that, that's just a natural thing that we all think because that's what we've been told. These are the people that you can go to. Now, it's important, of course, to have those people and to have those specialized conversations and therapy when it's appropriate and all those things. But it's almost when you're thinking as an educator, remove the word mental health from it and just think of I know how to connect to my students. I know how to relate to my students. I know how to care about my students. And I know how to support my students. You know these things. And so it's just the word mental health that sometimes can create that block to think, Oh, is this something different than all of that? And I think that's the biggest hurdle to overcome. It is no different than any of that. It is exactly that. It's just taking it one tiny step forward further to say, how does all the things I'm doing already [00:17:00] apply in this maybe slightly different circumstance? So I know how to help students through their homework. I know how to help students through an interpersonal challenge that's happening in the classroom. So let's just apply all of those same skills and let's put it into a student that's anxious. Or a student that's disengaged from school, or a student whose parents just separated. And again, it's just knowing that the same skills that you already possess are just going to be tweaked a little bit to apply there. And I think that's the biggest one, because educators are fantastic at all of these things. It's just that confidence level of knowing I can do this because I've done it before in a different circumstance. Yes, Ross Romano: Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that for a lot of people who are not professionals and whether they're educators or in any other position that they're trying to operate by whatever their version of the do no harm principle would be right. And a lot of times that leads [00:18:00] to paralysis or just choosing not to do something versus to do something. And I mean, sometimes I think about how that might apply to other parts of the teaching role and with instruction and stuff where like, there's like pressure to do something. to do something. Because it's, you're having, it's like, this is at least I'm justifying that I'm doing my job and I'm doing some things that I don't even know if they're the right things to do, but at least nobody can say I didn't do something. But in this case, kind of the opposite of, okay, I don't want to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. So I'm just going to do nothing, which of course, in the time when somebody needs something from you, then not doing anything can be the harmful option. And also I do want to talk more about at the school level, like the resources that need to be made available, right. And the the opportunities for teachers to refer students. [00:19:00] for appropriate care when needed, but that there are a lot of just small day to day things and all the interpersonal dynamics that are going on or grief and just other things that are happening that necessarily require or don't exclusively require mental health care, but need caring you know, people in positions of authority to have some awareness and to be present and, You know, demonstrate that they're present. But without putting too much pressure and fear around it, right? I think it does make sense to think about that sometimes You know, you need to take some form of action. It might be a small action, it might be a couple of small words but that if you're operating by, let me just not do anything, let me not get involved with this at all because it's not my area of expertise, that, that could perpetuate some of [00:20:00] the challenging environments and dynamics that foster some of the mental health struggles that kids do have. Dr. Hayley Watson: Absolutely. And I think your example of grief is a really good one because it's something that we don't know what to do with so if a student has someone in their life pass away and you know, what usually happens is that and this is true for adults too. We don't know what to say. We, we don't know what they're going through. We don't, we think if we bring it up, we'll trigger them. And that'll make them more sad. And we forget that. That's on their mind anyway it's not like they're going to forget that this happened because we don't bring it up, but there is that paralysis. And so what happens often when a student is grieving is either they are left with the experience of, does no one even care about this? Or they're left with the experience of I hate these pitying looks I'm getting, and I know people are kind of looking at me like now there's something wrong with me, and I [00:21:00] hate it. You know, those are typically two reactions that students will have. And so when you think about that, this is a really awful experience in a student's life. But if that's their experience after it compounds and it compounds, and then what does that lead to? And how does that not only for their mental health, but also their school life? Like, do they become more withdrawn in class? Are they able to focus less? You know, are and then this becomes a problem academically as well. Whereas as an educator, if you do know those few words, again, it's not much, but just knowing Hey, I can just let this student know I'm thinking about them. And I can there's a few things I can say that I know are going to be helpful, or that open the door. I use that language in the book a lot. Just open the door for their own self reflection, for their own communication, Not pressuring them to talk about it but we can say a few things that don't feel pressuring for students, but that do let them know, oh, here is a safe [00:22:00] person I could talk to, or here's someone that gets me or that I can feel safe and comfortable with. And the difference between that, and there's so much research that supports this, kids really only need one person. Whether that's a peer or a teacher or someone, they only need one person in a school setting that is, that cares about them. Not even that knows the right thing to say or connects them to resources. They just need someone that cares and when they feel that, everything changes. And again, it's the difference between being in an environment where You think you're alone and isolated versus being in an environment where you've got a partner in this and maybe there's some challenges as well. That's very different. And so again, it's just you know, because of course mental health is not in the sphere of education per se, but when you put examples like that, you go, Oh, right. So if I just could say a few things, this student would actually. not only thrive more in their life, but be able to engage in my class more, my job as a teacher becomes easier, the [00:23:00] class dynamic becomes better, and the whole school system thrives more. So then you start to see, okay, this really is woven into the role, as long as we really clearly define what are those things that we're needing to do, and how do we empower teachers to do those things? Ross Romano: (ad here) I don't know if this is oversimplified or just. wrong, you can tell me, but I guess one way I might say it is if the reason why you're not willing to say something or address something is because it's uncomfortable for you, that's a bad reason, right? Dr. Hayley Watson: Yeah, I think that's, Ross Romano: fears. And I, we've probably all dealt with that at some point, where you know that somebody had something happen, and you're like, I really don't I, I don't really feel like bringing this up because it might, the Dr. Hayley Watson: yes. Ross Romano: might get out of hand, right? It might you know, some people think of it as, I don't want to make them upset but the reality is, oh, they're already upset, [00:24:00] and by you demonstrating your care, it might just make them safe to open up about that, right? And and that with students in school and this applies all the way on up to adults that have bosses and supervisors and colleagues, right? Having somebody that you feel like actually wants you to come to them when you need support makes a big difference. And knowing that Not that I, that you need it every day or, but, and not somebody that needs to constantly solicit it from you, but to say, look, if I need something, I can go to this person, tell them what's happening. And I know that they see that as their role. They're interested in helping to support that and whatever needs to be done. That, that makes everybody feel a lot more secure where they are. Dr. Hayley Watson: And I definitely, and I think you raised an interesting point about if I'm not doing it because it makes me uncomfortable, that's not a great [00:25:00] reason. And I would add to that, that this also then becomes the responsibility of the school system. Because if an educator is in a school system and their principal or their superintendent there's not this space of vulnerability and support that's shown to them. That's a big ask. You know, so I think this is another important part of this conversation, is that it needs to come from the ground up, but also from the top down. That there needs to be that space for educators to feel like, oh, somebody is asking me and having these uncomfortable conversations and opening the door for them. That then role models and creates a space in the whole school system to be able to do the same. I think that's an important Thing that it's not just put on teachers of do it even though it's uncomfortable. Yes, we all have to do that, but that becomes a lot easier. If you have a whole school and you have a principal that shows up and says, I wanna have the uncomfortable conversations too, even though it's hard for me, then all of a sudden that's [00:26:00] a way easier ask. And so I think that's an important part of that conversation. Ross Romano: Yeah, well that yeah that's an important point is that with anything that teachers do another thing that is likely to hold them back is if they feel like they're not going to be supported when they make a decision. And okay, if I ask this, Student how they're doing. And then their reaction is something unanticipated, right? And then it gets elevated, and then administration is not backing me up and I'm just, I'm not gonna say anything that might get me in trouble or and that applies to any part of their job. Certainly the and and it's, yeah, it's hard to try something, right? To take a risk when. You know that nobody likely has your back or you're going to get thrown under the bus for it. You're going to be very conservative Dr. Hayley Watson: Yes. Ross Romano: And that's not really a thriving environment for professionals to be able to make professional [00:27:00] decisions based on their experience and their instinct and understanding that there is a good rationale for this. And it doesn't mean that we can always control the outcome, or there might be somebody who just decides they don't like the way we went about it, or we just might not get the result, but I can certainly justify my logic and my intent and anything to do with mental health and social emotional you know, characteristics is going to be And it's, and there's not, there's no guarantee of what the outcome is or or how it works or sometimes how somebody responds to just hearing the same thing from who the person who says it and all of those things. But that it is, and I think, I guess that's a good place to go is. Kind of trying to illustrate sort of from the [00:28:00] top down with the infrastructure and in a sense what should look like in a school to have one like leadership that is creating the conditions for mental health to be appropriately addressed and discussed, making whatever resources need to be made available beyond that. And then we can fit in the teachers and their role of what You know what they can address what they should have other resources to be able to direct students toward right but I guess it starts at that leadership level to really talk explicitly about. I mean, there's. modeling, right? Walking the walk, as you said, and actually treating teachers the same way, but then explicitly addressing, this is what we're going to do here. This is how we're going to go about it. These are the resources that are available when needed, but these are the decisions that you are equipped to make and that [00:29:00] you're trusted to make. And we can have an ongoing dialogue about that, or if you're not sure about something, we talk about it, whatever that looks like, but. Let's get it out there and not just have everybody doing their own thing or everybody afraid to do anything or whatever that looks like. Dr. Hayley Watson: Definitely, and there, you're absolutely right, there needs to be a cohesive strategy in the district, there also needs, so one of the things that I see as really challenging in, in districts, especially in the U. S. so I know I work with districts in a few other places in the world. But. is there's a lot of focus in mental health at the tier two and three levels. So make when you notice students are struggling, let's refer them to that professional. And that's fantastic. And that's really important. But what's missing in a lot of cases, is mental health at the tier one level. And this is where teachers feel disempowered because they aren't given the resource that they can use with their students, all their [00:30:00] students. And this is that whole thing of mental health is universal. If we wait until we see the signs and symptoms, we're going to miss most students. And that puts a lot of burden on teachers to be able to identify. And then we kind of miss the point. Are we trying to identify mental health or are we trying to. prevent challenges and create a skill set. And so that's one of the things that leaders really can do is create time. This is the most important thing in schools, especially as it gets up to middle and high school, there's so much less time. But there needs to be a mental health class. There needs to be classes where we're teaching a skill set. You know, this is a skill set to know how to recognize and change You know, unhelpful thoughts, how to recognize our own stress responses, how to navigate interpersonal challenges. This is not something you can just have one speaker come in and done. Check the box. You can't just offer a resource and expect students to access it outside of class time. Just like if we want students to learn to read and write, we [00:31:00] teach them every single year. And we make lots of class time for it because we know it's a complicated skill set that needs a lot of practice. So that's one of the things that I'm most passionate about is bringing that mental health in at that tier one level. And so that's what our classroom resources are all about. And then this book is the complement for, okay, if we're explicitly teaching mental health skills to all of our students, we know they have this baseline. Now let's make sure that teachers can also navigate those incidental things that, that come up. So we need to attack it from both sides, because if we're just doing one or the other, we're not creating this whole picture and we're expecting that we're going to catch all those students that are struggling, or we're going to we're going to deal with it outside of the classroom, but It's in every classroom all the time. So I think that's a really important piece that teachers need that class time because that will indicate to them that this is something that's needed in the district [00:32:00] and prioritized in the district because we literally have a class that's dedicated to it. Ross Romano: Yeah. How is that done without time as a a limited resource, right? Especially in schools. How can that be implemented in a way that's practical and that isn't detracting from other necessary time? Dr. Hayley Watson: absolutely. So one of the things that we do, and I think a lot of resources do this, is tied to cross curricular competencies. So there are a lot of things that are in mental health that do relate to other subjects. You know, whether it's a health class, whether it's sort of English class, whether it's sort of around social studies, and there's lots of things that Students are required to learn that really do relate to those mental health skills. So that's one piece is making sure it's really tied in. Another piece is making sure that it's tied into district overall aims. So a lot of districts will have you know, mental health or wellbeing as a priority in the district. And then it's just really making sure, okay, if that's your [00:33:00] priority, and you do really want that outcome, you are going to have to rethink what you're prioritizing at the classroom level. So it's a strategic. kind of thinking of, okay, so we might have an assumption that there's nothing we can possibly cut from our class schedule. But if we really do value mental health, we might need to just rethink that a little bit and really consider what are the things that are necessary to meet our aims as a district. And so it is challenging and it is something that needs to happen at those high levels. But as a society, we need to really be asking that question. Can we afford not? To make these changes so just because it's always been done a certain way and we've always taught a certain amount of math and English, etc. You know, in science, not to say that those things are not important, but do we need to rethink this a little bit? Do we need to get creative? So does it need to go in a homeroom period? Does it need to go in an advisory period? Do we need to [00:34:00] rethink how our class structure works? And so there is that That onus and so many visionary district leaders are doing this, so it's not, it's really important to know that so many people are really doing it and are switched on, so it is possible, it's just making sure everybody knows that, and everybody knows this is, if we want that outcome, we are going to have to make changes. some changes. And so there's that piece where, yeah, you can fit it in a lot of ways, but you also need to. Again, it's that discomfort. We can't avoid it just because it's uncomfortable, just because it's a pain to reorganize things or it requires there's going to be pushback and all those things. Sure, that's fine, but What are, if we don't do it, what is the cost? If we just keep status quo because it's easier, what, and we all know the cost, we see the cost every day, the devastation that happens from student mental health, it's that really kind of hard hitting question to come back to. Ross Romano: Yeah. Yeah. Another element of being able to implement [00:35:00] a plan here effectively that also relates to something the school leadership needs to be out front of, and it is the communication with parents around what this is, what it looks like, why we're doing it what our approach is. It's another source of. I think probably often potential fear about Who's going to have an opinion about who should and shouldn't be talking to kids about this. Some of the specific you know, things you, you write about in the book, especially right, Gender identity, inclusiveness, some of the some of those types of things that there's a lot of fear mongering about it. There's a lot of, I think also deserved. unease if a parent thinks that their child is more comfortable talking to somebody else other than them and then it morphs into you know, who's initiating and all those kind of things. But I think, again, another reason why [00:36:00] teachers would avoid it entirely unless There is a clear and explicit plan. School leadership is communicating to parents and saying, look, this is our approach here. This is what we're doing. You know, we're trying to maintain a gate but you really making it clear and above board and not allowing the narrative to take shape on its own. As with all other kinds of things, again, like the importance of proactive communication and. really not hiding behind it and being very clear about Here's the thought that goes into this. Here's what we're attempting to do. Here's why it's so important. And if somebody has a disagreement, then we can discuss it, but we're going to be talking about the same thing at least versus Dr. Hayley Watson: Yeah. Ross Romano: we're not saying anything about what we're doing. And then somebody has one interpretation and it snowballs and becomes something. Dr. Hayley Watson: Absolutely. That [00:37:00] transparency is so important. Parents knowing what's happening. It's vital because it is really important that they're not, their children are not being taught things that they fundamentally disagree with and all of those things. That's a really important dialogue to open up. And in our experience, the more at least with our resources, the more parents see them and also making sure that there are resources for them. For parents as well, that's one of the things that we really feel passionate about, that it's not just for the students, or just for the teachers and the students, but it's also for the parents, so making sure that they're a part of it is really valuable in that, and the more they see it, the more they realize it's usually, again, the word mental health is scary, but then when you actually go, oh, this is about helping my child navigate challenges, I can get behind that. And then the other piece of that, that's really important in terms of sort of how do we do this in an education system is to move slowly. We don't have to solve this all in year one. And I think that's a part that can paralyze the system when it sort of seems like this huge beast and you know, you might have [00:38:00] parents in the community that are opposed to it, or you know, your teachers are feeling a little bit less comfortable. And then it's that thing of, okay, well, let's do this. Do nothing because it's too hard. Really moving slowly. I've been watching Seal Team and I love one of their taglines. Smooth is slow is fast. I think it's how they say it, but it's that whole idea. No, slow is smooth is fast. That's how they do it. So the idea of if you move slowly it will go smoothly and then in the end you'll get that outcome that you want. So that's what we do when we work with districts is let's not look at your one year rollout, let's look at your five year rollout and let's just start really simply. Let's start with using, getting some of the shared language, making sure we're on the same page, start with some teacher training, start with some really light simple concepts that are not going too deep and know that. If we start taking steps in the right direction, we are going to ruffle less feathers and we're going to get everyone on board. It's going to be gentle enough [00:39:00] that people don't feel blindsided, whether that's parents or teachers, and that we upskill everyone at the same time. And so in five or 10 years, we're going to We can go, yeah, we have this thriving district that where every student has these incredible mental health skills because we did this slowly and we're building up our students from pre K all the way up. And then if we all did this, if we think about sort of the world we live in. We all did this really slowly in 10 or 20 years. Imagine if every single child that's now in pre k has had this because it when you introduce it when they're young, it's really simple. So it's gently at the older ages and really starting at those younger ages as well. So that everybody all of a sudden has this new skill set. And then we're not trying to awkwardly have conversations with people that don't know how to have that conversation. They know it. They'll be so much better at it than we are. We'll be the awkward ones, but they'll go, Hey guys, we've taught, we've been having these conversations our whole lives. We know this skill set. And that's what we want for our children's generation is [00:40:00] that change and that empowerment. Ross Romano: Yeah. To give listeners like a real clear idea of how the book is presented. You know, there's all the various different behavior patterns that students might be exhibiting. And there's kind of the why, what, how, can you just maybe talk through an example of that? And if I'm coming to the book, right, and I don't have a background in this, but I want to try it, how I'm going to what am I going to take away from it? Dr. Hayley Watson: Definitely. So I've really designed the book in a way that it's to be used as a handbook so you don't need to read it cover to cover. You can literally have it in your classroom, have it at home. You encounter a student that, for example, is really anxious or has lost someone that they care about or you know something's going on at home that's hard. So any number. You flip to the chapter in the book. So there's a series of chapters with all different okay, here's someone students that are struggling with addictive patterns. So you see a student on their phone can never put their phone down. All these different examples. You just look through the chapters. [00:41:00] What's the chapter that relates mostly to that situation I've seen. You flip to that chapter and you get a really clear framework. And it's the framework that's used throughout the book, but applied to each situation. So there's six. core skills that really do apply everywhere, but you get to see it play out in each example. So, okay, here's the six skills. How does that apply to this specific example? And then the part that I love the most is you get to see a real dialogue. Because this is, again, the reason I wrote this book is because with all the educators I work with all over the world, I get asked that question of, Can I have an example? Can I really see what, what am, what am I really supposed to say here? Because a framework is really powerful, but we also need to see it in action. So they get a real dialogue, and that's bit of an interview that I've done with a student about this issue. And so they get to see it break down of how does this actually go in real life? You know, because again in a perfect world, we would just say A, B, C, D, E, and we'd say [00:42:00] it all perfectly, and they'd get it, and it'd be great. That's not how it works in real life. So to see how it can go wrong, I get, and I give a lot of sort of notes of, Oh, I wish I'd said this here, or they they responded this way. So I tried this and really just breaks it down to see that I don't do it perfectly. Not in a million years, no, one's going to do it perfectly, but that's okay. Here's how you say the next thing, or here's how you recover, or here's what you could say the next time. And so they really get this living example and the purpose of that and the feedback I'm getting, which is really exciting is it really helps to go, Oh, okay, great. You're not expecting me to nail this and to have like the lingo down or anything. I can just as long as I have this basic framework in my mind, I can stumble my way through it and have a really powerful impact. So that's the idea. So every chapter has that, that real interview example that, that they can. Sort of digest and then have that as their template when they're in that conversation the next time they see that student. Ross Romano: [00:43:00] Yeah, and when we refer to the why in this case, right? I mean, it's not theory and jargon are not, not really what the book's about, right? Which is, I mean, maybe what some people there might have in their head when they think about something that's about mental health and written by a clinical psychologist and how this is going to be, there are a lot of stuff that I Maybe. Maybe. don't really know much about, or it's not going to be that practical, it's a lot about the theory, or or it's a lot of lingo and terminology and things that, how do I put it to practical use? And especially when we're talking about that practicality of What's the strategy? How might I use it? It's important to put that in terms that are going to carry over. Dr. Hayley Watson: Yes. Ross Romano: because that's right on a day to day basis. Don't really happen. According to theory, there's a lot of theory behind it and how these strategies were developed, but Right now, like I have to deal with what's [00:44:00] in front of me and just think about how do I do this? Right? Dr. Hayley Watson: Exactly. And that's exactly right. And I wrote this book with educators, with that lens. And for that purpose, also for me, myself, when I'm engaging with something, I don't, like, you need to know that there's a sound theory behind it. But That's not going to help you in the moment. You know, it's, what do I actually do? And that's true with anything we do in life. If we're trying to make a change for ourselves or learn something, we just need the steps. We need the steps. We need to know that there's a framework and we need to know that there's something we can remember and recall. And so that, that's the idea of this. Again, it's like that handbook that you can hopefully just keep flipping to and go, okay, great. I'll try one little thing here. And then the more you use it, the more intuitive it becomes. And the more it just becomes second nature and that's the goal. It's like if you encounter something and you wish you could just ask someone, Hey, what can I say here? And that's the idea of the book. It can be that person to say, here's a few suggestions. Why don't you try that? And then you get to judge your students best you know, what's happening, [00:45:00] but you have that confidence that you are doing something that is evidence based, that, that is something that, That intuitively makes sense and then you start to see it in action. You start to see hey, this is really having an impact and then hopefully you feel better about going home at the end of the day and knowing I did make an impact and I know that I don't have to worry about that student so much because I know I did what I can do to help them. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, Haley for our listeners interested in taking the next step with this, of course, they can get the book and we'll put the link to that here. Anything else they should check out? Dr. Hayley Watson: Yeah they can absolutely check out our website openparachuteschools. com which has more information about the book on it, also our classroom based resources for teaching those Tier 1 skills and then they can also find me on LinkedIn. I love connecting with educators and chatting about all things mental health. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, listeners out there, we'll put the links below. You can learn more at the website openparachuteschools. com. You can also get the book, Finding the Words, from Wiley [00:46:00] or wherever you get your books. So, we'll put the link there below, but if you'd like to go to Amazon, Barnes Noble, etc., you can certainly find it there. We'll have Haley's LinkedIn page. Profile linked as well. So connect any and all of those places to, to learn more and to get the resources to put this to use. You also please, if you haven't already, subscribe to the authority for more author interviews coming your way every week or visit bpodcast. network to learn about all of our shows. Haley, thanks again for being here. Dr. Hayley Watson: Thank you so much for having me, I really appreciate it.