Latest / Unfolding: a circular economy podcast / Episode 5 Ladeja Godina Košir

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Episode 5 Ladeja Godina Košir · Unfolding: a circular economy podcast

• Iain Gulland: and like I say, it's going to be recorded. So don't worry, you know, if you say something or you want to go back and you you can put your hand up and we can, you know, don't worry about that. It's not a kind of, yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. And if your dogs appear or anything like that, you will edit them out. We've had, we've had people blowing kisses to people in the room and all sorts of stuff. So don't worry about it. It's all good fun. ⁓ LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: I say stop Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. But it's more cozy. Yeah. This is added value, I guess. Real life. Wayne Hubbard: And that's just the hosts. Iain Gulland: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's meant to be a bit more of a conversation rather than some sort of formal. We're not trying to put you on the spot. We're not trying to catch you out. You know, the reason we're doing this, you know, primarily because, obviously it's about COP, in the run up to COP, circle economy and zero waste is on the agenda. So we see that as an opportunity. And then another part of that was when I, you know, when I was articulating that to people in the kind of Circle Economy movement, people didn't know about it. You there was almost an awareness that people didn't realize the Circle Economy was actually going to be a formal part of COP and you'll know that it has been discussed in the margins, but it's not actually been, you know, front and center ⁓ of discussion. So that was one reason for doing this, just to kind of help everybody understand that it is there, but also to try and talk about a little bit about what's that opportunity. So yeah, it's great, it's on the agenda, but what does that actually mean? and how can we make the most of it? And ultimately we thought we would do the podcast, get a few guests to come and talk about that. And also talk about the actual cop process, because as you know, that's very complex as we found out. So we've had speakers on who have got experience of cops for various roles. And that's been really good. But we were keen to get you on, because yeah, obviously. your experience and expertise. We are at the heart of the kind of European dynamic at the moment. So think, yeah, I think that'd be really good. Cause again, we're not trying to make this European. We are trying to talk about a global thing, but you know, Europe is certainly seen as a leader in terms of circular economy. And is that, you you could argue, is this something that we should really be just taking to COP, you know, look at the Europeans, let's just follow it. ⁓ LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Europe is part of that, yes. Wayne Hubbard: One of the things that we'll get into and that you've raised is scaling networks, implementation, how do you make this happen? You know, how do you make the ground fertile for this? What we think of as kind of almost grassroots activism, really, in a way from cities and communities, how do you make that kind of take root? And you've talked about that in your article and I've seen you talk about this before. So this is really, we're all kind of on the same page with this. So we'd really like to kind of focus on that. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Mm. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: So your ⁓ email was perfect. So shall we? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, the I was like what I can add. Yeah, because ⁓ I'm not the negotiator at the COP, you have better people for that, but I can bring the perspective of what is going on among stakeholders and on European level. Yeah. Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: Well, yeah, exactly. What is it that's needed to make... So you've talked about that. So we'd really like to get into the concept of transition brokers and what they are and all of that kind of stuff. Should we crack on it? Do you want to do the intro and then... Iain Gulland: Yeah, let's crack on. So if you're all right with that, I'll introduce you and then we'll let you talk a little bit. ⁓ Well, not a little bit. I mean, you can talk as much as you want about. Yeah, talk about yourself, maybe even introduce yourself a little bit about, you know, your own journey and the European platform. then, yeah, particularly then maybe get into the thing about the act, the Circle Economy Act, and then we can take it from there. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: It took for ages, right? Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: We'll try not to interrupt you, but we like to interrupt each other. So we talk over each other a lot. So you might have to go like that. Stop, Anyway, let's go. If you're happy with that, should we go? OK. So our guest on today's episode is ⁓ Ladiya Gidina Khosur, who is the founder and executive director of LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Absolutely. Let's start. Iain Gulland: Circular Change, a very important organization promoting the circular economy in Slovenia, the only country in the world with love in its name. You always like to tell me, Ladia. But Ladia is also the chair of the European Circle Economy Stakeholder Platform. So we're going to hear a little bit more about that. But that makes you really at the heart of what's LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, yeah. Iain Gulland: going on in Europe at this moment in time regarding circular economy progress, particularly the proposals around circular economy acts. Again, that'll be very ⁓ useful to hear from you about that. ⁓ So I've, yeah, I mean, I've known you for some time, Ladia. I can't remember when we first met. We've, many, many, yeah, right, okay. But yeah, we've always been, ⁓ yeah, not just in Europe, you know, much traveled circular economy. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, ten years ago. Iain Gulland: expert around the world. You've had a variety of roles and hats and those got something new to share when I meet you, which I think is just ⁓ part of the attraction, ⁓ having time with you. But you've always come across, you're very passionate about this clearly, but you're also very grounded. You're also very ⁓ connected to storytelling, businesses and people and individuals and communities on the ground as well. think it's ⁓ really something that shines out when you start to talk about the circular economy. And you're also keen, as we all are, to learn as well, ⁓ learn from others and keep learning, keep on that journey. ⁓ And you're also very interested in the wider, the idea of a wellbeing economy and thinking about people in place. and justice as well. that's something I think we will get into in this podcast. But anyway, I'm going to invite you to say a little bit about yourself, your background, and yeah, and then it would be great to hear about the platform, the stakeholder platform, the role of the stakeholder platform and how that has helped you get involved in the development of the Circle Economy Act in Europe. So welcome, Ladiya. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, thank you very much, I am for this introduction and Wayne for having me today. ⁓ as you said, ⁓ we know each other for quite a long time, and both of us, I can talk ⁓ about the two of us, because Wayne is not ⁓ so f I'm not so familiar with him, but this curiosity ⁓ and this openness to learn new things, this is something what is our driving force, I would say. And at the same time, ⁓ as you mentioned, connecting the dots so that together we can do something what none Us can do alone. So I'm I was very privileged when you attended our first circular change conference back then, 10 years ago, in Ljubljana in Slovenia, because it was really pioneering. And I think that is also important. Now you're starting with this podcast, and it is pioneering again the approach, how you are bringing these topics that are, I wouldn't say that they are not relevant for everyday life, but people are not interested about circular economy, climate change. When they wake up. They're interested about coffee, about food, about social security. So I think that it is very good that we ⁓ tackle this angle as well. So I will ⁓ try to bring this to our conversation. Of course, from one side, as you said, I'm the founder of Circular Change. This is a private nonprofit organization, but we are not funded. Therefore, we are earning ⁓ money on the market. That's why we are so grounded, because ⁓ yeah, you you need to figure out how to serve. And how to be sustainable. And on the other hand, it is already my fourth mandate of chairing the Circular Economy Stakeholder Platform in Brussels. And this is also something what I can share with you, of course. So, where to start? From which angle? What would you prefer? Iain Gulland: Okay. I guess we are interested in just a little bit more about the platform. What is the European platform? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. Yeah, this is ⁓ European Circular Economy Stakeholder Platform ⁓ is ⁓ a unique platform. ⁓ we ⁓ like to say that we have two parents. On one side, this is European Commission, and on the other, economic and social committee. So this uniqueness of having these two entities ⁓ somehow nourishing the platform, and the most important part, of course, are stakeholders. A variety of organizations that are in the Coordination group. And the aim of this platform was from the very beginning really to breach real life, to breach those who are doers and who are implementing circular economy on one side, ⁓ with the decision makers, policymakers, and ⁓ how to say authorities on the European level. So, from my perspective, this is absolutely added value. And when we started, also almost 10 years ago. Next year we will have the 10th anniversary and the conference again in Brussels celebrating this as well. When we started, it was a little bit ⁓ no I wouldn't say weird, but people were suspicious. What is that? ⁓ what are you going to do? ⁓ yeah, now stakeholders coming together, organizations that are dealing with circular economy. What is circular economy? Is it waste? Are these NGOs and so on and so forth? And also ⁓ there was this gap. Between the platform and ⁓ particularly the commission, because even this relationship was not ⁓ organic in a way. No, for the commission, being brave enough to invite stakeholders to the discussion, this is a process. And I'm not a very patient person, but I have learned a lot throughout those 10 years as well. How to nourish this dialogue and how. To be more sensitive for each other. Because of course there is a lot of bureaucracy. There are rules. ⁓ European Commission particularly needs to work according to their procedures. While we, stakeholders, on the ground, we want action now, yesterday, not tomorrow. So now, after 10 years, we can see that this ⁓ trust has been established and that this ⁓ relationship became stronger. And also this year. with ⁓ it it it is always ⁓ what we can see at the annual conference in Brussels and you attended the conference several times so you know and you were a member as well. So that is where you can feel and sense that. And this year it was also a lot about Circular Economy Act. And I was also the advisor invited by European Economic and Social Committee, so the other parent of the platform. And ⁓ we really integrated a lot of different opinions into the proposal that ⁓ we co-created. So that is also highlighting ⁓ that now there is less fear for this kind of dialogue if I compare it to 10 years ago. So that is what I see as an achievement of all of us. Wayne Hubbard: Does the stakeholder platform have a formal role? You kind of explain it as an organic thing, but does it have any kind of formal role in European policymaking? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: It is not whatever we take, it's not binding for the commission or for the process. And ⁓ we are all volunteering. So all the work we do, even my ⁓ chairing and co chairing this for ten years, it is my ⁓ to say so free time and what my investment into that. So we are not paid for our work, ⁓ no one Is not somehow, as I said, ⁓ integrated in the process that we need to approve or that we need to be asked, but we are considered as a relevant partner. And it has changed, as I said, as I described, throughout those 10 years. So that it is not just aha, we have a platform there and we don't care, but we are really invited to contribute more and more. So I wouldn't say that it's time wasted, on the contrary, ⁓ it's great opportunity, and this is also one lesson learned. That do not ⁓ seem appealing or ⁓ influential or attractive at the beginning might evolve into something very relevant and powerful. That was lesson learned for me as well throughout those 10 years. So it is absolutely worth ⁓ contributing and participating. Iain Gulland: I mean, is interesting. mean, it's sort of going to have a tangent because it wasn't something we were probably going to talk about because in a way, previous guests that we've had on the podcasts have talked about almost the absence of exactly what you're talking about within the cop process. You know, this idea that, yes, there's loads of networks or platforms that, as you say, the doers, the implementers are all together. You know, they're almost in one room talking about sharing, but the connection between them and the policy makers is not there. It's not as, what's the word, as productive. As you're describing, that mechanism, while people talk about these things being established and set up, they just don't function like that. They function in two rooms almost. I mean, that's my word. What you're describing is exactly what I think people, other guests were talking about, is needed at the COP process, a much more up and down. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. I would say, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Iain Gulland: dialogue which perhaps is built on trust and gets there through an organic process rather than people being forced together. I just think that's really interesting what you've just described. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Exactly. Yeah, but what I would like to add here ⁓ is that ⁓ what I described is really the process that took us ten years. ⁓ but ⁓ if we take COP, for example, there is still this gap, this missing link. And that is what I have learned while I was attending also COP or ⁓ World, even World Circular Economy Forum or Expo, and these big events. ⁓ that there is this gap, and that is why I invented, in a way, the term circular diplomacy. Iain Gulland: Yeah. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Because we are talking a lot about different kinds of diplomacy, but I see that circular diplomacy is something that is bringing us together with different interests, but without a clear and defined agenda what we want to sell. You know? It is ⁓ on one side I'm calling green colonialism, ⁓ once you come ⁓ with ⁓ let's say, economic diplomacy ⁓ hat on your hat. ⁓ and you need to sell new technology to global south. This is let's say typical. Thing. Well, circular diplomacy is that you enter the country. That is what we did with Brazil and with our dear friend Beatrice Luce, who organized several events already in Brazil exactly with this purpose. So we we get there and we discuss with the people from the country how they understand the circular economy. Where are their gaps? What are their solutions already? And then we do exchange. So it goes both ways. And I think with big events. ⁓ Like COP, ⁓ it is too often ⁓ that yes, ⁓ decision makers and let's say high-level people come and sit together in one room, and there are site events where other stakeholders are having great not only ideas but cases, but then dismissing link. You know, they do not ⁓ define conclusions together. And ⁓ there is another term I would like to introduce at this point. These are transition brokers. ⁓ Another mission that I have together with Professor Jacqueline Kramer. ⁓ Because ⁓ again, ⁓ if you manage to come together and put those interests to the table and even agree on the common goal, then you go home and the CEO has his or her KPIs. The mayor needs to do this and that for citizens, you know, the minister is replaced. But you need the orchestrator of this process even after the agreement. So that is where transition brokers come in. So I Wayne Hubbard: We're really excited, I think, both Ian and I about this. This is a relatively new term to me. I heard you speak about this on a webinar a few weeks ago. And I think Ian and I both feel that the organizations that we were in charge of were effectively transition brokers, but kind of accidental transition brokers. So can we just start with your, like, what is needed to scale the circular economy? because I think you've said in a recent interview that it's not through lack of ambition. So what is needed to scale? Where do transition brokers fit in? And how do we kind of get them to formally fit into the global system ultimately? You what do we take to COP? What do we ask from COP and how does that work? I know that's a big question, but I think if we could start by what is your analysis on how do we scale? Because I think it's quite interesting. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. ⁓ To scale, it's not enough that we have fragments and parts, but we need a knowledge how to connect them and design the system. And too often we are trying to fix the system instead of reimagining the system. And I think this is the biggest difference when we have linear economy and we are trying to make it more efficient. This is one story. But when we are talking about circular economy, that actually Starts with thinking about design. What we need, first of all, and you know all that nine R's. So do we need something if we need how to design it and so on and so forth? And recycling comes at the very end. This is a completely different story because it is more complex, it is more demanding, it needs more people on board. And that is the lesson learned. So that for scaling up. We need to recognize ⁓ The complexity, and maybe we already recognize the complexity, but then we don't have the answer how to navigate within this complexity. And the role of transition broker is that this is an organization or an individual who is independent to the certain extent. So it is not a typical consultant because you know consultant belongs to the company, the company has KPIs, and he or she needs to sell so much on the market. So this is more like Like ⁓ I don't know how to call the person, but this neutrality and ⁓ competences that the person brings in or the organization in the process, this is crucial. Because then you need to nourish the dialogue and run. ⁓ Actually, the process from the very beginning to the very end, and you have a variety of stakeholders, a variety of languages. You are if we are, I don't know, in built environment, for example, you need to talk ⁓ to to ⁓ architects, you need to talk to the planners, you need to talk to the concrete company, and so on and so forth. So here this is really important that you do orchestrate the process from the beginning to the end. The end is never the final. End, but this is the goal that the group agreed on. And you can ⁓ talk about transition brokers on the level of ⁓ let's say a one local community with the goal, I don't know, to to produce more, I'm simplifying now, but to ⁓ produce and use more local food, one example, or to a very complex value chains. And nowadays, on European level, we are talking a lot about value chains, even rather about Value systems, because here we're tackling another very important topic: these are resources, and this is also the topic of the COP. So, why I'm mentioning that? Because ⁓ once you are a transition broker for a complex value chain or value system, then this is big game, you know, and it it needs, first of all, the change of the mindset of those who are sitting around the table. Because as I said, it's not only about efficiency, it is about sufficiency. What is enough? What is good enough? And how to shift also then with business models from the typical one is from product to service and other stories like that. So now I tackled a few, let's say, ⁓ entry points for this transformation and for change. And it is not rocket science, it is already happening on the ground, and that's why I'm Iain Gulland: you LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Saying for scaling up, it is more about understanding the territory, ⁓ really ⁓ being sensitive for those maybe smaller players or less visible ones that are crucial for this transformation and recognize where the anchors are. And another lesson learned, and I will stop then ⁓ with this chapter, is that in different environments and different countries, anchors might be very different. If we take the United States, we know that there is a very entrepreneurial ⁓ country and environment. So you have investors and you have startups, and maybe you build around that. ⁓ In ⁓ let's say in China, we know it's completely different, the system there, so you have a kind of autocracy and you can do it in a very different way. So it is also important to have this sensitivity for the environment and then knowing how ⁓ to start the project. Iain Gulland: So that's, yeah, I mean, again, really interesting. ⁓ I guess the obvious question then would be, how do we create, know, whose role is it to create those transition brokers? I mean, is there examples already that you think could be followed? Like as Wayne said, we probably feel we were in that space, but by accident, nobody kept along and said we need to create this mechanism ⁓ in our respective. situations. So I guess, yeah, how is this something that we should be taking to court to say how do we create a network of these transition brokers in countries and regions and cities and empower these people to take on this objective? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I'm like, it gets me. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Sorry to interrupt, but that is what we managed to do with Circular Economy Act. And I'm looking forward now for the to see this act because we introduced transition brokers and we put it in in our recommendations. So hopefully they will end up because there is short description why this is essential for the transformation. So let's see. That was one. Iain Gulland: Okay. ⁓ wow. Wayne Hubbard: So that'll be a formal part of the architecture in the European Union. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. That that's what we were aiming for, but let's see now what the Commission will take from our proposal. Wayne Hubbard: mean, that's amazing because like in the UK context, we've had ⁓ a kind of false dawn in a way. We had a circular economy task force. I was part of that. We've created this document that hasn't been published, but doesn't it feel like there's a governance infrastructure or a network to deliver any outputs from that? you know, not that I'm aware of anything that's been planned, whereas what you have done is through an organic process, hopefully created a formal governance structure to deliver a circular economy within a pretty big territory. So that's amazing, isn't it? ⁓ LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Hopefully we will that is my kind of mission, you know. I said if I contribute, it's not me only, there is a bigger group behind. But if this is something what we can deliver, ⁓ this is a shift because this is the hardest thing. This is mindset shift, and this is also about what are you willing to pay for? Because ⁓ you are both transition brokers as well, but usually it ends up like ⁓ you are great, join us. Us, stay with us because we need you for the process. But it is not on the playlist, you know, and it is Wayne Hubbard: No, I mean, you said you're a volunteer in a way, you're not getting paid for this and that's great, but it seems like we've come this far in the circular economy journey by passionate, knowledgeable, dedicated individuals, and it feels organic rather than planned, formal. so I wonder, and going back to COP, I wonder how we could take what you've, and maybe you could tell us a bit about the circular economy, what we can take, what you've learned. to cop because that's where that's where Ian and I are going in November so you know it'd be interesting to understand. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. I was very interested in this year's COP ⁓ from two reasons. One is how it is divided, that it is taking place in Turkey, but negotiations are in hands of Australia. So I guess I and you were in Australia as well this spring, right? Yeah. So I was there ⁓ the whole January and ⁓ part of February with the purpose to understand better Australia. Iain Gulland: Yes. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Because I think their role in this process is really, really important. And ⁓ nowadays, when the world is changing, and ⁓ with this new geopolitical situation and ⁓ everything we are facing, I don't need to repeat that. ⁓ I think Australia is becoming more and more interesting from the perspective of how a continent like that, ⁓ far away for us Europeans, of course, not for some other continents, but for us. Can influence ⁓ the the whole let's call it new order ambitiously. But ⁓ I think that we are in ⁓ the this wave of decline of Europe to say so. It doesn't mean that everything will end, but we need to redefine ourselves, you're we Europeans. So Australia for me was ⁓ really interesting, and I talked to ⁓ many people, organizations, got some workshops, so ⁓ I think that they are absolutely ⁓ great negotiator for this new mindset that is needed on the global level. So that is one interesting fact because you have Turkey and Australia. And of course, Pacific that is overlooked very often ⁓ will have its own there. So that is one thing. The other is that, and we discussed that also at Circular Economy talk that we organized and is online. So if someone is interested, we can share the link to that talk as well. ⁓ So the other important thing is that this year, COP is moving from these energy topics more to the global circular material use. And there was already this kind of ⁓ I wouldn't say commitment, but suggestion that this global circular material use rate should be at least fifteen percent. We know that nowadays it's 12%, and that Europe has ambition to get to 24%. So these numbers are really interesting because ⁓ we were talking so far at the COPS as well, very much about energy and how to replace fossil fuels and all that. But much less about materials. And this is now this shift. And it is really, I'm interested very much in that. How is it going to be addressed? Because we know who is owning resources on our one. Planet. I don't know how it's out there in the space and in the universe, but for now we are managing resources on this one planet. So ⁓ I'm interested in this discussion and in solutions. Again, I'm coming back to that. When we are talking about materials and material use, and about circular economy in this concept and all the let's say principles of circular economy, And you put it on global scale, so it reshuffles everything. Who is going to take some something from where, use it for what where, ⁓ and then bring it back to the circle? So it it is absolutely I mean, ⁓ this this is something what is exciting, and I'm curious what the pragmatic answer is going to be. Iain Gulland: Yeah. That's really, yeah. So it's really, you've thrown that back at us slightly. So I mean, so just for listeners, we are planning to have somebody on from Australia on our podcast series. you know, I'm sure we can talk about Australia, but it's probably better to leave it to that ⁓ episode. But yeah, I was in Australia as well. I think it's interesting that they are sort of in charge of negotiations for the COP. And I did... ⁓ meet some people there to talk exactly what you've just been ⁓ talking about, Ladiya. I think it's interesting, both from that discussion and being in Turkey as well, that we are gonna have an agenda point around, as you say, materials really, not, it is part of the climate discussions, clearly the importance is there, but it is about materials, it is about what we're doing with materials. And I think it's fair to say that the people who have been involved in COP have been more focused on the energy transition, electrification and stuff like that. And so I think there is a bit of an opportunity for people like ourselves, like even yourselves, the work that's been happening in Europe to get into there. Cause we're not starting from scratch here. We're not starting saying, ⁓ my God, who should we talk to? There are people who have already been talking about this for a number of years. And as you say, on the ground, people delivering things, both local community. cities and regions that have been kind of demonstrating the art of the possible for some time in that kind of circular dimension. I think that's an opportunity. But I think the other thing I always come back to and I know this sounds quite flippant, but it's interesting because the debate about climate is all about emissions. But emissions, quite rightly, that's really important, but nobody buys emissions, nobody sells emissions. We don't trade emissions as such. But actually the conversation about materials is very different. It is, as you say, it's accessing materials. It's, you know, who has them, who doesn't have them, what are they used for? There's a value to those materials that, you know, in the open market, whether you're interested in climate or not, there's a value attached to that. I think that whole frames the discussion very differently to probably what is typically the discussion or the discussion points or the entry points in the dialogues at COPS. know, materials is very different. I, so I'm very interested to go and kind of, is there going to be a different almost conversation or a different language as you said, I think you said that as well, that we can get involved in because to some extent we've been talking about this for some time and not just us, you know, range of circular economy, you know, experts, people with experience for some years. So I don't, yeah, you kind of pass that back to us to say, yeah, what's that? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. Iain Gulland: Interesting. But I do think that, I mean, I guess the question we were saying is there lessons from Europe that we could be taking into that discussion, ⁓ recognizing that some of the challenges we have in Europe or some of the opportunities, as you said, will be very different to other parts of the world. So we shouldn't forget that, you know, one size does not fit all here, but it is a global, you know, it's a global opportunity to do something different. So we have to work together. We can't just suddenly say, well, we're doing this in Europe. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Gender. Iain Gulland: because the materials do flow around the world. So yeah. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: That is crucial. Sorry to interrupt but I think these messages are really important. What you just said right now, that for us Europeans it's very important every time that we do not come and say, Okay, we've got Green Deal, we've got ESG, we got all that. We have the answer. We don't have the answer. We are experimenting and we should accept that by experimenting and by trying our best, we also fail. And there are mistakes and it is part of life. And I think Now in Europe, you know, this atmosphere, this kind of ⁓ where you can for me it was such a big difference: Europe versus Australia. Because in Europe it is so decadent in a way, you know. Everything is, you have a feeling everything is collapsing. We tried our best, it didn't work, let's forget, blah, dah. While in Australia, I mean the space and everything, dimensions are different, but I felt like in the 90s, you know, when there was still hope, where there was still this sense of community, ⁓ belonging ⁓ to the land, ⁓ to the nature, ⁓ that you can do something. Iain Gulland: Yeah. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: something with that that you should protect it, that you are part of nature. And we lost this sense here in Europe. So I think that that's why it's interesting also at COP. ⁓ how ⁓ Europeans ⁓ are are we humble enough, but in a positive sense? I don't mean we should come and say no. No, no, no. We should be proud of our achievements of everything, but humble at the same time to learn and to co-create something together. And it's the hardest thing because ⁓ we all have our own egos, and we you know, at COP you have super egos, and now put them in the room and say, Okay, none of Iain Gulland: Yeah. Wayne Hubbard: you LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: You is the smartest, but still you you need to create something super smart. Iain Gulland: Yeah, it's interesting to say that because again, when I was in Turkey at the Zero Waste Forum, it was very, I mean, it global event. It was very uneuropean. In fact, you know, the kind of chat from people who were not European was exactly that, politely saying, we want to leapfrog where you are because they recognize that to some extent, although Europe's got lots of frameworks and, you know, things happening in terms of, you know, positive action on this agenda, you know, there's been mistakes or... LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Iain Gulland: we've ended up in a place of over consumption, ⁓ material impacts out with Europe as much as anywhere else that need to be addressed. So they were kind of saying, yeah, okay, we get it, but we need to be in a different place altogether. It's quite interesting, as you said, to kind of look at it from a ⁓ global aspect rather than just always talking about what Europe's doing. But maybe that is a point about, I mean, I've just mentioned the word. consumption, because again, that's something that you've mentioned as well previously, that it is something that we don't really talk about in this whole agenda, is the need to reduce consumption, ⁓ consumption of virgin materials at a global level. And we know that that's sometimes quite a sensitive discussion politically for people to talk about that, because all of the connotations are. that brings in terms of economic growth and economic viability. I just wonder whether you've got any thoughts on that, about how do we get that into the discussion? Because it's not, we do need to address it. I think everybody admits that, everybody will talk about that to some extent over coffee and croissants before the events start, but it's very hard to have somebody on the platform talking about it openly. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah. Yeah, and I think why is it so hard? What that's a good question. Why is it so hard? Because it's ⁓ at least this is my opinion, it's immediately connected with lowering the quality of life. And we as humans we are selfish and we are interested in the quality of our own life and of our kids and grandkids, hopefully. So as soon as you say reduction, ⁓ less material, ⁓ not so much ⁓ I don't know ⁓ business going on. It's ⁓ my life will be terrible. But let's take a different lens, and I think that's why narrative is so important. It's not about diminishing the quality of life. We can see how The quality of life of me, myself in Europe, already decreased in the last, I would say, if I only take 10 years. The quality of air I'm breathing, all the catastrophes that are happening, ⁓ I mean all all these disasters. So I my life is not as good as it used to be. And even the quality of my food is not as good as it used to be, not to mention other things. So if we would like to live a good life. Let's sit together and talk about good life. And then when we are looking for solutions for good life, the this kind of reductions will come as a part of solution, not as a part of the problem. And this is so important. And ⁓ when I'm working with also with ⁓ let's say sea level people, and I say, can you imagine the future you would like to live in? It's ⁓ we have these reports, we have these numbers, we have okay, but you, you, do you can you tell me as a child in a kindergarten what is the future you would like to live in? And then we start from the scratch, you know, and forget the numbers and everything, and once we have this vision. The future we would like to live in, then it's much easier to say, okay, ⁓ we will reduce the use of materials, but it does not mean that we will not have housing for our kids, right? Because we will just transform that into something else. If we want to live a better life. And have a good health system, it doesn't mean that maybe we need, I don't know, 20 new hospitals to be built physically next year, but we repurpose the space that what used for, I don't know, football court. I I'm not just simplifying. But I think that this is crucial. How we are addressing things. And as soon as you put it like it will be less, then we are ⁓ rejecting. And ⁓ it's also interesting, ⁓ European. Environmental agency created a very nice report, ⁓ two reports actually. And ⁓ I was ⁓ contributing to one of their webinars as well when we were talking about ⁓ these new business models, circular business models, and there are plenty of opportunities for these business models and they are profitable. It's not that this is ⁓ I mean social enterprises are great, but this is social enterprise doesn't mean that you are in debt and that you will die. So it means also that it is sustainable business. So but other business models as well. So I think that this knowledge about circular business models is still lacking, or maybe not the knowledge but awareness of how you can implement that. And on the other hand, those numbers when the money talks, ⁓ i I cannot even imagine those billion How was it? I guess it was around ⁓ 80 billion per year ⁓ estimated that is needed ⁓ for this circular transformation. For me, this is the number I cannot imagine. That's why I don't have it in my head. But what does it mean? It is so abstract. Where are you going to put this money? You know? Iain Gulland: Yeah. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: So probably not in using more and more materials if we simplify again, but in transforming business models so that we will live good life. So here is my ⁓ I wouldn't say answer, but my observation and my ⁓ yeah, not even advice. I don't like these words, but ⁓ point of view yes, how to address these things. Wayne Hubbard: I suppose we talk about reducing consumption emissions and not necessarily about reducing access to the goods and services that we need and that those goods and services have the performance that we require in order to live our lives. so I remember, we've talked about this before on the podcast, there's a great report called The Future of Urban Consumption in a 1.5 Degree C World by the C40. which really starkly set out how you had one citizens had to reduce the access to stuff. And what it meant was new stuff as opposed to second life stuff, repurposed stuff, reused stuff. So it missed out really all of the circular economy business models that we talk about. And I think that going back to your earlier point is where you need transition brokers, competent transition brokers to take. the science and like enact that in a way that makes political social sense so that you deliver a fair and just transition to a circular economy. And I think that, you know, again, coming back to COP, what can, you know, what should COP leave behind in its wake to enable that transition to happen rather than just, you know, some nice words about wouldn't it be great to have a circular economy or worse. let's have better waste management, which we need, but we always default to if we're not careful when we have this conversation about circular economy. So yeah, what would you think we need to leave behind? And I guess this is starting to come on to the what five policies question maybe that we ask all our guests, but you know, what's the fundamental thing that's going to make it happen? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, yeah. I will answer to this question, but just before that, I would like to add something that is also important because we are humans, I always say that, and it is about lifestyle, you know. And nowadays we are exposed to the social media so much, and younger generation, but not only younger generation, and they follow what they see on social media because they believe that there or we believe that we are valued according to that. So as long as we are valued, because we Are consuming hard and a lot, we will try to do that once it changes. And when you are praised or admired, because you consume less but better, we do a significant shift. So this is just one sideway about the value, what we value, and what where are we valued? And we should Wayne Hubbard: But I mean, some one segment of the population is well ahead of politicians there. And I would suggest that the 16 to 24 year olds who are the mass consumers of fast fashion are also the consumers of second life clothing. For example, vintage, Now you wanna make sure that the second life clothing displaces the new clothing and it doesn't already do that. so quite often, and the same with diet in a way. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, and that is great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wayne Hubbard: know, eating less meat. So quite often citizens are ahead of politicians and policymakers. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Exactly. Yeah. So this is very important stream. I just wanted to stress this, that that's important where the lifestyle is created. And so this is what ⁓ relates very much to our daily life. So now we go back to COP. And yeah, ⁓ I will start from ⁓ this part as well. What I would expect ⁓ because we ⁓ we touched-based transition brokers and explained hopefully a little bit why it's so important. ⁓ but ⁓ here I see the opportunity. Wayne Hubbard: Mm. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: That ⁓ we start investing into this transition capacity. As I said, first of all, to recognize the importance, then to formalize that in a way and to allocate finance for this kind of role. So this is related to transition brokers. The other one is the one we mentioned now, is to connect circularity with well-being, not to forget about this fact ⁓ and what it means. For daily life, and here we can talk about that in the next podcast. But these are two, let's say, soft parts, and then I would go to the hardcore. So ⁓ three things from hardcore. We were talking about materials, so let's integrate that into climate plans. It is not detached, these are not two agendas. This is one agenda. So hopefully, we will come out with one agenda. Agenda that is climate and materials. ⁓ How this is embedded. Second thing ⁓ we did not mention, but we are working a lot on this as well, and it was part of the Circular Economy Act proposal. This is ⁓ circular and green public procurement. Because this is where you walk the talk. In Europe, we have 40% of GDP that goes through the public procurement. So this is a great opportunity. So I would stress this. And money makes the world go round. So investments, where do they go? So how there is we always talk about this billions and trillions, and you name it. So how To create, and this was your question at the beginning, now the ecosystem where this money can ⁓ become investable and bankable, and the solution is circular. So, because too often we still have this gap. So, how To bridge now the investments with circular solutions because everything is out there. Money obviously is waiting, and circular solutions. So I hope that I somehow answered the question. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, no, mean very, very, very well. Ian, did you want to, you know, have you any observations? I've got one more point actually, Iain Gulland: I'm just, well, I'll you have the point. mean, I guess my, I mean, you've kind of opened up another couple of podcasts. And that's the problem with this. ⁓ As we've discovered, you know, we do, you know, yeah, we want to kind of make sure that accessible to people, not four hours long, but that's really interesting around some of that. Particularly around public procurement. Cause I think you're right. think we've all, you know, I guess you talk about we've known each other for 10 years. think that is. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, that's the problem, isn't it? Iain Gulland: possibly one of our frustrations that I remember going to an event in the European, ⁓ in Rotterdam I think it was, and it was all about public procurement shaping the circular economy and it was really, really positive. But we're not really seeing that, we? Not in really any real scale that public procurement ⁓ is shaping how we could really drive, create these markets, these opportunities for businesses and for more structured. circular supply chains, both locally and within the European Union. We're just not seeing that. We're not seeing how public procurement could do it. That kind of ambition as an opportunity still feels unrealized ⁓ to the extent that we really could be doing with. that's, yeah, but that might be a follow-up podcast. Sorry, Wayne. Wayne Hubbard: I no, I was going to say my, was thinking about, we talked to Walter Stahl and you know, it just, reminded me like, I always talk about five circular economy business models. Other people will have different frameworks and there are nine hours and you know, five models and all this kind of stuff. But really, you know, kind of just distilling it down, you've got this intersection between circular economy and waste management. which we could probably call recycling in and out. And then you've got sharing, design for durability, servitisation, which for me is performance and access. And that requires a shift financially from the mindset that you invest capital in new stuff to the mindset that you invest, and I don't know if the word is right here, but you change to revenue in order to maintain things. And that shift, I think, is really difficult. Like really difficult for national governments and local authorities and municipalities to make because revenue is considered overhead and overhead is almost always considered bad and we make efficiencies by reducing overhead and increased capital. And that's the wrong way around. And I know this is something that everybody knows, but for me, I'm just like, ⁓ yeah, this light bulb came on. I've kind of just realised it. So how? How do we convince finance departments, national finance departments, how do we move from investing in new stuff to maintaining old stuff? How do we really realise access and performance so that it means something? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: If I would have the answer, I would be this billionaire. But let's try. ⁓ Wayne Hubbard: hahahahah ⁓ LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: What I see here ⁓ is the importance of the value, and ⁓ what we are talking about in economy is maintaining value for as long as possible. So ⁓ the shift should be around that. Once we extracted something or once we created something, this is valuable. This is now now this has value, and let's maintain it for as long as possible. So no matter which business model ⁓ we are using. So this is the Core again to put on the glasses of ⁓ this is the value, I want to maintain it, and by maintaining this, I'm earning even money, you know, and creating jobs. So, again, ⁓ as I said before, the different perspective. And ⁓ nowadays we can see that insurance companies and VC funds are getting sensitive for this. Why? ⁓ because of the climate change and Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: All the disasters, the natural disasters that we have. So they are very interested in that if I simplify that my house remains as it is, and I'm paying them the insurance policy, but they are not paying me for repairing my house. So this is very simple formula. But we we can replicate that to more complex ⁓ things as well. So our common interest is that money is well positioned and the value is maintained. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: And here we come again to this exercise of creativity, of changing the mindset and finding new entry points for addressing the challenges or problems, if you want to name it so, ⁓ in a more playful way. I like to use this word because ⁓ if you are playful, then you have space for experimenting and for bringing joy to things, but now we are so stressed and so uncreative because of. stress and struggle that we are lost in space. Iain Gulland: You're right. We need to bring this to an end. But I think it's really fascinating that because again, that's just the number of it, isn't it? We're stressed because we're constantly, we're in a battle here. We're losing value. I mean, even the circular economy, circular gap report recently, didn't it? I mean, there was, can't remember the number now, but it's billions or trillions of dollars worth of value. lose, lost to the economy because of our linear system. So because of that, you're right, the whole premise is to make more value, create more value, bring more value into the economy. So we're trapped in this kind of, we're losing stuff and we need to go out and get more stuff. But actually the answer is, well not, part of answer is to actually maintain the value once we're into the system, which is again, just like we're talking about materials, we keep losing materials as waste. and you keep going out to dig up more of these materials, how do we just focus? It is a mindset thing, but surely, just when you said it so simply, surely in terms of, as you say, de-stressing ourselves, that's a much more creative way rather than living in this kind of push-pull, push-pull dynamic. I just think that's fantastic the way you articulated that, like, you know. It is, as you say, just a mindset thing. We could all sign up. I don't think if you said that in front of anybody, any business, in any part of the economy, they're going to say, absolutely, I'd rather be in that space than being trapped in the middle with this kind of losing, gaining, losing, gaining. Just fantastic the way you've articulated that. Well done. Wayne Hubbard: the Brilliant, thanks Lada. Did you have any last observations or any last things you wanted to contribute before we say thank you? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: kind of my slogan that I'm using and that is let's make the ward a playground not a battlefield and I think it's nice conclusion our discussion Wayne Hubbard: Yes, brilliant. Thank you so much, Ladeo. It's been a pleasure to have you on. ⁓ yeah, I think Ian and I are to have to kind of decompress and work through some of these issues. There's such a lot in there, but great job that you're doing with the stakeholder platform. Great job you've been doing in promoting circular economy for the last decade. And big thanks for all that you do. Iain Gulland: I think ⁓ LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Thank you and enjoy play. Wayne Hubbard: Yes, play exactly. Yeah. Iain Gulland: Yeah, was good. Yeah, I've kind of reflected back to this recording this at nine o'clock at night. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, I I like it because you can sense also throughout this conversation, you know, that it is not there is not someone who ordered those podcasts and now you need to deliver something exactly like this. So I enjoy it very much. Thank you for the invitation and hopefully we will meet in person. Wayne Hubbard: That's right. Iain Gulland: I'm just, thank you. Yeah, absolutely. No, what I was gonna say was I'm just really unconscious where I come to at nine o'clock in the morning. It's so uplifting. I think I've just set me up for the day. just think, yeah, I'm really enjoy taking the dogs out. Wayne Hubbard: Yes. Haha LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: And now when when we stopped it, I I need to tell you where I'm going this afternoon because I used to be a model in my old times, and today there is a fashion show in Ljubljana. It is 80th anniversary of ⁓ one ⁓ department store and we old ⁓ school models are ⁓ going again. So this afternoon I'm even modeling, yeah. Iain Gulland: Yeah? And are you modelling? Wayne Hubbard: Amazing. Iain Gulland: You're modeling? ⁓ brilliant. Well, there you go. Full circle. There you go. You've got full circle in your career. Wayne Hubbard: Wow. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, that's that's why I say yes it's it should be playful. We shouldn't take things too serious. But still do the right things. Yeah. So Yeah, yeah. I'm coming to ⁓ to Dublin but you will not be there probably. ⁓ there is an event at the end of month. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Iain Gulland: Yeah, no, excellent. Well, thank you, Ladiya. So I hope we see each other soon in person as you've said. I'm sure we will, something. Yeah, yeah, no, I saw that. I can't make it. I think I'm on, I'm going to annual leave. ⁓ I'm not really employed anymore, so you don't use that term, you? So I'm on holiday. I'm going to Portugal. I know I'm looking forward to my holiday, actually, to be honest. But I leave the podcast all in the hands of Wayne, so. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Yeah, yeah. Enjoy your holidays and then you Yeah. ⁓ When we work and you will enjoy. Good. Good division of work. Wayne Hubbard: Hahaha Iain Gulland: Yeah Wayne Hubbard: Yeah exactly. That's typically how it works. Iain Gulland: Hahaha Okay, right. Thank you laddie. I will see you soon. LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Right. Okay. Thank you once again and yeah. Wayne Hubbard: Yes. Are you able to exit and we'll carry on just recording? LADEJA GODINA KOŠIR: Okay, and then just let me know ⁓ when it's ⁓ done so that we can Okay, bye. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, we'll send you a preview so that, Bye bye. Iain Gulland: Bye! Yeah, it was good. I do feel uplifted. I think I've always felt uplifted when I meet Ladiya. She's very optimistic. Yeah, she sees the good in it as well. To some extent she sees the challenges but turns it into a huge opportunity. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Very optimistic, very, yeah. Iain Gulland: So yeah, no, it's really, really good, really good, and good insights into what's happening in Europe. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, I mean, we're gonna have to kind of... gonna have to talk about listener. So what's the, you know, what's the... do we do if we don't want to be like two old men talking in a pub? I think that's quite charming, you know, that last bit. I mean that gives us a... yeah. Iain Gulland: Two men in the pub! I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, what can we talk about? I think we should just talk. mean, don't take it too hard. Wayne Hubbard: No, no, think that's the, I mean, that is the vibe. That is the vibe, isn't it? Yeah. Iain Gulland: That is the vibe, two guys in the pot. I think, mean, she, yeah, I mean, she said stuff, I think, you know, we love the idea of transition brokers. I think that is really, but how they are created or, you know, so we don't just come across these people by accident. You know, they are part of the system change that we're looking for. I think, you know, I think that's a really good, a good point made. Wayne Hubbard: Okay. Iain Gulland: the stuff around, yeah, I know there's a great capacity. I've seen that as well. And even wider climate stuff as we talk about it a lot about investment that's needed and stuff like that. And one of the challenges going on to the finance, people saying, well, we've got the money we need to invest. Yes, you can talk about new business models and how do you actually structure finance around them. So we could absolutely talk about that. But actually at the heart of this. quite often is that the business plans, for a better word, or the projects that are brought forward are just not, you know, they're not structured correctly, or there's, you know, the capacity in whether that's public sector or community sector, or even the private sector itself to try and articulate what they're looking for in terms of money into a project, you know, lacks, yeah, lacks a bit of capacity. You know, people just, you know, don't have the... the capability sometimes to kind of make the business case for projects. ⁓ So that's, and we don't see investment in that. People tend to not invest in that. They'll say, we've got money to invest in capital, equipment or X, Y, but we're not gonna give you money upfront to develop your business plan. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. No, I mean, was exactly, I think we've both been in that space, haven't we? You know, the real London, at least in the outset, know, this idea was that startups in the circular space face enough hurdles and challenges. What they don't have is just somebody to help them make a really good business case as best they can. So support them with traditional business support rather than give them advice on sustainability. They don't need that. Iain Gulland: How could you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and they're usually very good articulations, they're passionate people, know, you've seen people, I mean, we've all seen that, know, people who are very good in front of an audience type of thing, but they can't put the paper together, they can't put the spreadsheet together to put in front of ⁓ a finance person, and that's where it all falls down, I that's very simple articulation of it, but yeah. Wayne Hubbard: They need help. Yeah. But we've discussed this. I think that the thousand flowers bloom, which is what we've tried to do, seed the economy with circular startups and let them take root and then overtake the economy. The organic bottom up stuff, it works to a certain extent, but it's not going to scale unless the conditions are right. you I think you told me about somebody who'd explained that ⁓ in a kind of garden way, but your trick, yes, so, you know. Iain Gulland: My tree planting colleague. Yeah, it is. Well, it is. And that's the sense that you suddenly know all of the trees that will grow. So they tried that. They've looked at that. So they now know the types of trees that will grow in a particular location. You know, whether that's the climate or the aspect, you know, it doesn't really matter, but only certain. types of trees will grow in a particular set of circumstances. So they know that. But then the next job is to create the right conditions for those trees to prosper and to grow. I guess someone has about land management, about fencing, keeping the predators out, about maintenance and management of the forest going forward. Just because you plant the seeds in the ground doesn't mean you'll have a forest in 20, 30 years. And I guess that's the analogy that I've used before around the circular economy. You're right. I think we do understand. the types of things, the types of projects and services, et cetera, that will work or could work in particular locations. ⁓ But we now need to understand the conditions for those to be the more dominant, know, dominant business models or businesses of their type, ⁓ you know, to get the scale. And I think, yeah, I feel that that's the journey that we've probably all been on, but we're now looking at how do we create the right? conditions, how do we create the right environment and that is much more about thinking about the economy, thinking about the wider system or ecosystem that we all operate within and it's not just creating something new, we need to really shape what's in front of us and that's, not saying it's more challenging, I think that's just, because I don't think it's more challenging, I just think it just needs us to recognise that that's the new job, if you know what mean, that's the new thing that we need to do rather than... go out and try and work out, as you say, new ideas. There's loads of ideas out there. There will continually be ideas out there. That's the thing. You're not going to stop now. Innovation, ingenuity, creativity will come along anyway. But we need to start thinking about the conditions much more. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. So this idea of scaling up, it really requires formalized transition brokers, feel. I mean, I think that what Ladiya and the Stakeholder platform have achieved is amazing. And they've done that from the bottom up organically. And they've done that, it's taken them 10 years to do that. Well, we haven't got 10 years left. We can't afford to kind of... Iain Gulland: 10 weeks, 10 weeks, go 31. Wayne Hubbard: So we need, so yeah, well exactly, we 10 weeks. So we need, you know, those four, we need things like the stakeholder platform in place to act as a broker, because they're a transition broker, aren't they? Between, you know, the cities, the municipalities, the communities and the businesses and the policy makers. And then there'll be transition brokers, I guess, at every level below that doing all of this kind of work. But it does, I feel, need some... organizational, formal organizational governance and we've like that. So I'm increasingly of the mind that that's what's missing. Maybe it's taking me a long time to take the bloom and obvious, but it does feel, you know, that way because of the lack of government action to date, you and I, maybe less so in Scotland because Scotland was more, you know, progressive on this. I always felt let's take action as a city. there's loads that we can do and we don't need government we can just get on and do it and that does get you so far but at a certain point you can't do any more without having you know the policies and the implementers behind you to really kind of scale it up and I feel that's that's that's the point that we've got to. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. And I think it doesn't need all of those levels, as you said. I think we all recognise that. You can do some things locally. You can do things at a city. You can do some regional, sub-regional. If you want to put Scotland in that bracket. ⁓ And then at UK. But ultimately, you do it within a European. You do it within a global because of trade, because of resources, because of materials. You need all of those things. So does make it slightly more complex, but it's having that. Yeah, what the platform are doing is creating that space to have those discussions both throughout the network, but up and down into the kind of policy space, which I think, you know, she does say it's unique. I think it is unique, you know, in terms of what we've achieved over 10 years, because usually they would just be like an advisory. There'd be something off to the side that policymakers would dip in and dip out of. That's usually the way some of these things work. The platform has to create its own energy by itself but it feels like it's a bit detached from what's actually happening and it only gets pulled in at certain points. that's right when consultations etc or they become a formal consultation partner rather than a you know a kind of collaborative proper collaboration. So yeah good I mean and like we said it's something that other guests have talked about possibly caught lax that you know, has has stakeholder. think I can remember Aileen talked about it was they turn up and there's rooms full of stakeholders but they're just treated like stakeholders not actually you know more formally part of the the dialogue in terms of you know outlining the delivery mechanisms to get places. So yeah I thought it was really interesting. so yeah I felt very positive but yeah. Wayne Hubbard: So I wonder if the Istanbul platform that ⁓ they're looking to establish as a legacy of COP31, I wonder what that is exactly and how that will operate. whether that will be a way of governing some of this at a global level. Iain Gulland: Yeah, perhaps that's something we should investigate in our future episodes. I'll ask a little bit more about what that Istanbul platform is about. ⁓ And understand a little bit more about, yeah, what maybe even Turkey are thinking about post-COP in terms of their role. Because they've got us to some extent. Wayne Hubbard: Yes, I think that requires investigation. Hmm. Okay. Iain Gulland: this point, know, the fact that it's really been championed by Turkey, the fact that it's circular economy and zero waste is on the agenda. So hopefully they're not just saying, well, that's our job done. Wayne Hubbard: Hmm. Yeah, well they're talking about implementation aren't they? So, and you know, we need a legacy. Iain Gulland: Yeah so so let's a conversation with them let's even for that. Wayne Hubbard: Good, okay. ⁓ Right. I haven't, I see Alif as... Iain Gulland: I know when I was saying that I was thinking she's already disbanded or has she come back to you? Wayne Hubbard: She hasn't come back to me. I did send the link, so I can send it again, but I'm loathe to do so until we figure out whether she wants to go ahead. I mean, we can, it doesn't, you know. It's fine either way. But she hasn't come back to me. Iain Gulland: She doesn't come back to you. It's like she's doing it outside of her job, what that says. She's trying to do it when she work, not as part of her job. Wayne Hubbard: What's that? Iain Gulland: I don't know whether she tried to fit it in and she's now at her work so she's not communicating. She only communicates out of her work for some reason. Wayne Hubbard: Well, yeah, yeah, I think she might be. mean, when we initially talked about it, she said that it would be more difficult in September. And so we were gonna go and do it in August and then she had to get permission, which pushed it and now we're in September and she's like, but she, yeah, we'll have to see. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Okay, so what we should record is an exit. Well, intro and exit, the exit should just be like, well, you've just told me, one of us should say, let's go put this down, one of us should say something like, you know, thank you, that's the end of the episode. That's the end of this episode, you've been listening to Unfolding, a secular podcast. Wayne Hubbard: ⁓ yes, an intro, our intro. Right, okay. Do we not? Iain Gulland: produced by Wayne Hubbard and Ian Gulland. Thank you for listening and you can all the stuff, check it all out, send us emails and stuff like that. I think that's what my friend was trying to tell us. I don't know which one, episode one obviously just petered out like you went to buy a round of drinks and I started talking to the person at table next to us. Wayne Hubbard: Okay. Right, okay, gotcha. Yeah. In typical fashion, yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I went to the toilet and left the mic on. Iain Gulland: Yes. And we left the mic on. Wayne Hubbard: Just that was whistling with water dropping in the background. Iain Gulland: It does not do anything. It doesn't have to be long or complicated. Wayne Hubbard: Okay, well, I will you say it then you've got this you've got the script Iain Gulland: Well, I said, what's the, but then I'll leave it and at the end I said, thank you for listening. Our next episode will be. Wayne Hubbard: We don't know. We don't know when this will be actually. Iain Gulland: next week. But then if you, yeah, you could say the bit at the end about where do you. send an email or something. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, okay. All right, would you want to have a go at that? Yeah. Iain Gulland: Just record it, see how it comes out. Okay, it doesn't have to be too long. I'm leaning in. Wayne Hubbard: It's gonna go really loud then really quiet Iain Gulland: Really light, so... Thank you. That's the end of this episode. You have been listening to Unfolding, a circular economy podcast. I've been Ian Gulland. He's been Wayne Hubbard. I'd like to thank you all for listening. Our next episode will be coming out soon. Wayne Hubbard: And if you've got comments or suggestions for future episodes or guests, know, leave a comment or send us an email to unfolding at unfoldcc. Iain Gulland: There you go, that's that, yes. I could have said goodnight from me and it's goodnight from you. Wayne Hubbard: I like the way he did that, and he's been. I like that. A little tagline there. I've been Ian Cullen and he's been, why not? I like it. Very good. ⁓ fuck it, alright, I've got to find this. I always struggle with this. Where is it? The intro. Iain Gulland: Alright, and the intro, so we have to do our intro again. Wayne Hubbard: Why is it not in recent? Iain Gulland: I'm gonna say we can't say former Chibitzek again. We are psycho-economy experts. We are internationally renowned experts in psycho-economy. Wayne Hubbard: and transition brokers. Iain Gulland: Hi, I'm Ian Golland. I don't know how to describe myself. You can't describe all that. I am a charity trustee. Wayne Hubbard: I can't find it. No, I'm going to Circle Economy Advisor and Non-Exec Director. I don't know, Podcast Host. No, can't say that. Right, I just got to find this. It's in my emails. Iain Gulland: I have to drop Sea Race Scotland because they're going to be dead and buried in sea this time. I might just stick with it, I know, I have to think about that. Wayne Hubbard: ⁓ come on. Iain Gulland: punchy diodes, see? Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, good. ⁓ here we go, got it. Right. Let me just get it in front of the camera so I don't look sideways. Circular economy advisor. Iain Gulland: Okay. Wayne Hubbard: Okay. Iain Gulland: Okay, ready? Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Yeah. Iain Gulland: Hello, welcome to Unfolding, a podcast which is going to unfold the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: exploring the current state of circularity progress and crucially how we can all be part of accelerating the transition and take action to combat linear lock-in whether we are policymakers, businesses or citizens. Iain Gulland: In this first series of episodes, we will be focusing on the up and coming COP31 in Turkey in November, where the circular economy has been highlighted as one of the core focus areas for action in the battle to reduce climate emissions. Wayne Hubbard: And we will be talking to a range of experts with knowledge of the process who will give us their take on how national governments can incorporate circular economy principles into climate mitigation strategies. Iain Gulland: And then we'll actually be going to COP to try and put into practice what we have learned in the podcast and try and influence the COP outcome itself. Wayne Hubbard: So thanks for tuning in and why don't you join us in this journey on the road to Antalya. Iain Gulland: So I am Iain Gaund. I am the former chief executive of Zero Waves Scotland as well as a past president of ACR +, a pan-European network of cities and regions promoting more sustainable resource management and the circular economy. Wayne Hubbard: And I'm Wayne Hubbard, former CEO, now a circular economy advisor, non-executive director and podcast host. And between us, and I have an astonishing 60 years experience in waste and circular economy. Iain Gulland: Myself and Wayne are going to be talking to a range of exciting guests over the 10 weeks in the run up to COP to understand a little bit more about the COP process itself and what we could expect or what we should expect by way of agreements or implementation plans for the circular economy, as well as getting into some wider discussions around the circular economy transition as it stands at the moment. Wayne Hubbard: And as ever, there's an opportunity for listeners and viewers to feed in their thoughts and questions as we go along. Send us an email, leave us a comment, and yes, suggest future guests we might like to include. We're keen to make this as interactive and as interesting as possible. Iain Gulland: And this week our guest is Ladiya Gidina Khusar. And think I've said all this anyway in the video. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, good. Well done. Iain Gulland: All right, cool for now. Almost perfect, we're getting there, we're getting there. ⁓ Wayne Hubbard: Almost perfect. ⁓ right so ⁓ we don't know if we're seeing a... Iain Gulland: Yeah, so should we, I don't know, I wouldn't come and discuss what we can ask her, but maybe we just have to regroup. Wayne Hubbard: Well, erm... We've got her... Iain Gulland: Bye. her letter alert. Wayne Hubbard: I mean she's got like a script. feel that she's been... I feel like we're... I don't know how she wants to play it but maybe we could just kind of lead her through her script. Iain Gulland: I know, I wonder whether she's gonna... because that was the thing about the seminar we were listening to again. I mean, they were scripted. You know, the reading script. You know, even the guy, the UN guy, he was like, yeah, fair enough. I don't know. I I put off some of these events because they were very... Wayne Hubbard: Yeah, I thought it would be wise to attend. Iain Gulland: ⁓ no, was good, it was good. I mean, could reach out to Jonathan. I mean, he would come on and just talk to us. He was a minister in the Victorian government, so he is quite well thought of and he chaired their Social Economy Advisory Board. Wayne Hubbard: Well, he might be the person to talk to. mean, you know. Iain Gulland: I I know. I didn't remember. I mean, I just think we women often because we too many men on the list at the beginning. Wayne Hubbard: Well now we're okay, we? But we haven't got... I have... Right, okay. have got... Keris has come back to me. So I have got... And I've got to get back. So two people. ⁓ Lamine, who I think works... I think both of them work for her, actually. For Wastane. I know... It's bit awkward now because... Iain Gulland: ⁓ he was the guy that was on the call, he wasn't. Wayne Hubbard: I suppose I could say, laments, know, and we could talk to you. Iain Gulland: We could talk to them and not record it and then say, ⁓ that was through. Wayne Hubbard: ⁓ Well, we could arrange to meet, you know, and just have a conversation with... So there's another one, Cleo, who is from South Africa, and we could just kind of meet them. Iain Gulland: right to me and chocolate. She was on the call as well. That's her team. That's not what we want. So I said you the Indian women, which is quite interesting. She was... I could have lost you if you'd Wayne Hubbard: That's a team, yeah. I don't... I'm here. Iain Gulland: So she's reached out to me on LinkedIn. And I do remember, I remember chatting to her. She was at that, she's part of that whatever Circle Economy Global South initiative that we all sat around the table. Wayne Hubbard: ⁓ yeah. Iain Gulland: She was there, she was one of the people up front. she's like, yeah, she's one of the movers. So she was asking me whether I was going to this World Forum for Circle Economy, which is in India, ⁓ which we'll know obviously, which is happening next week or something. ⁓ Wayne Hubbard: She was one of the movers, was she? I remember her. Iain Gulland: is another thing. yeah, I she might be, I don't, I mean I don't know, haven't heard her. Well yeah, she came across as very appreciative of what was going on in India particularly. Wayne Hubbard: Well India is like a big, they're pretty big into the circular economy, so I mean maybe that she would be. Iain Gulland: I know. I know. So we could ask her, we could just do it and see, we don't really know her, so we could do her, we could take Jonathan and we could do her and then we'd just have to make our minds up about where we're putting them out there. Or I could make a call with her. Maybe that's the thing I should really do. I you're right. I should probably see if she's up for a team's call. Catch up with her and see what she has to say. Well, Beatrice has come back so she definitely still wants to do it. It's actually quite interesting because one of the things she said she'd like to talk about is gets into a different space. She says some of the things that the European Union are moving forward on in terms of... competitiveness and resilience and thinking about its materials and stuff like that, potentially will impact on Brazil negatively. This whole thing about we're looking after our own, which we didn't get in with Ladi. Wayne Hubbard: Negatively, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is, that is very interesting. could, so this trade dimension, I think there's a made in Europe push as well, you know. So all of this is about resilience, looking inside your, it's very Trumpian in a way and. Iain Gulland: Yeah. Well, Exactly, exactly. we're not talking about it. I mean, that's the whole thing about textile. know, the whole EPR textile stuff started the whole journey, didn't it? You know, if we start to onshore, know, ideally, well, the activists are saying we should to onshore all our equipment. Then I mean, the Bangladesh just gets wiped out, you know, in terms of its economy. Wayne Hubbard: Yeah. Yeah. But then what? Exactly. yeah, remember having been on the working group for textiles for the task force, talking about EPR, and then the next week we signed a trade deal with India with textiles as part of the trade deal. Presumably removing tariffs associated with textiles. More exactly. Iain Gulland: Yeah. More, more, more, more stuff can flow in. Wayne Hubbard: This is a good example of like, you know, one half of government not knowing what the other half is, really not realising actually the consequences of what it's doing. Not even... I don't think it was like conspiracy, it was complete cock-up. Iain Gulland: But in a way that's joined up thing at Lally. I mean it's not joined up. mean the people in that department of government, Treasury, are not thinking about circular economy. They're thinking about how do you get more stuff coming in. So that's whole thing. I that whole thing I was talking about then, you're trapped in the middle of stuff leaking out, stuff coming out. There isn't anybody really in the middle. Wayne Hubbard: No. Iain Gulland: stressed out at a government level. There's people working at one end of it. Your job is to bring more stuff in because there's leakages. So we need more of your stuff coming in. And then there's people at the other side saying, stop the leakage, stop the leakage. But they don't talk to each other. It's this whole thing about, I told you the NHS thing, chatting to my pal who works there. The NHS, person who buys stuff, head of procurement in the NHS, in like a hospital. who make shoes and off gowns and all of that sort of stuff is there and the person who's at the back door dealing with all the waste stream, all the plastics and all the fucking... They've never met each other. They've no idea who they are. They don't even know their names. They've never met each other. But these are the two people who could come together and say, well, hold on, one of you could solve the other person's problem. Or if you started working a much more joined up way, you could actually create something out there in the community.