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EXPOSED: The Tucker Carlson & Candace Owens Betrayal (w/ Josh Hammer) · Unshaken & Unafraid with Joe Pags

0:00
Speaker 1: I bet you've noticed there's something strange happening on the right.
0:03
Speaker 1: Candice Owen's now doing a three part hit piece on
0:05
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica Kirk. A lot of conservatives are
0:08
Speaker 1: asking the same question, what happened to her? Josh Hammer
0:12
Speaker 1: joins me to break down why he thinks Candace crossed
0:14
Speaker 1: the line and why Tucker Carlson may be pushing the
0:17
Speaker 1: conservative movement in a very different direction. Do you have
0:20
Speaker 1: any idea what happened to candas owns, because I'm not
0:22
Speaker 1: sure I understand. She's now done a series calling out
0:25
Speaker 1: Erica Kirk. After Erica I think was so gracious as
0:28
Speaker 1: to have a face to face meeting with her, she
0:30
Speaker 1: seems to have gone even more off the reservation. What's
0:33
Speaker 1: going on there? Do you think?
0:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot to say here. The first and
0:37
Speaker 2: foremost thing is that this is satanic, diabolical behavior. This
0:41
Speaker 2: is really demonic stuff. You know the Book of Exodus, Joe,
0:45
Speaker 2: it says very clearly, actually that thou shall not oppress
0:48
Speaker 2: a widow, and the punishment that God promises for those
0:53
Speaker 2: who oppress a widow. Towards the second half of the
0:55
Speaker 2: Book of exodus is very, very harsh. It's essentially the
0:58
Speaker 2: death penalty. You're not going to go ahead and make
1:01
Speaker 2: a prediction that is what's going to happen there. But
1:02
Speaker 2: the point is that this is about as low scum
1:06
Speaker 2: of the earth behavior as is possible, And you're totally right.
1:09
Speaker 2: Erica Kirk did fly to Nashville. She literally flew to
1:13
Speaker 2: Candas's home turf to have this meeting. Apparently Megan Kelly
1:16
Speaker 2: orchestrated this meeting. This is what Megan Kelly was saying
1:19
Speaker 2: to try to defend or kind of pro peace bonafitez. Well, unfortunately,
1:22
Speaker 2: Megan Kelly has proven to be the worst peacemaker since
1:25
Speaker 2: the men who drafted the Treaty of Verside to end
1:27
Speaker 2: World War One. I mean, this is this is staggerantly
1:30
Speaker 2: incompetent stuff. When it comes to Candace Owen's Joe, I'll
1:33
Speaker 2: be honest with about even when she was quote unquote good,
1:36
Speaker 2: I actually personally was never a fan. I thought that
1:38
Speaker 2: she wasn't delivering particularly substantive materials, a lot of kind
1:41
Speaker 2: of prepackaged talking point type stuff there. She clearly was
1:45
Speaker 2: less crazy, So something clearly snapped to make her go
1:47
Speaker 2: down this rabbit hole. I don't necessarily know what that
1:51
Speaker 2: is much or anyone does. I have my own theory
1:53
Speaker 2: on it. I'll give you what my personal theory is,
1:55
Speaker 2: which is that she started to really go down this
2:00
Speaker 2: path in earnest around the time that Kanye West started
2:04
Speaker 2: doing his pro Hitler pro Nazi thing, So it was
2:07
Speaker 2: late September into early October twenty twenty two. We learned
2:11
Speaker 2: subsequently a Tucker Carlson then at Fox News had edited
2:14
Speaker 2: out some disturbing pro Nazi rhetoric from this Tucker Kanye interview.
2:18
Speaker 2: And then it was about a week or two later
2:20
Speaker 2: that Kanye West did this tweet promising to go death
2:23
Speaker 2: Khan five or whatever it was on Jewish people. At
2:26
Speaker 2: the time, Candas owns became Kanye's number one defender and
2:30
Speaker 2: they had publicly become quite friendly. There were a lot
2:32
Speaker 2: of images of Candace and Kanye together there. So my
2:36
Speaker 2: own personal theory, again I don't really approve of this,
2:39
Speaker 2: but I'm just speculating, is that it was Kanye West
2:41
Speaker 2: who radicalized Canvas zones. A lot of Candas's rhetoric, if
2:44
Speaker 2: you listen carefully, it's a lot of this emphasis on
2:46
Speaker 2: the synagogue of Satan, obviously deeply anti Semitic language that's
2:52
Speaker 2: popularly affiliated with Louis Farak Khan and the Nation of Islam.
2:55
Speaker 2: So my own working theory is that Kanye West somehow
2:59
Speaker 2: got a hold of the Phara Khan Nation of Islam
3:01
Speaker 2: brochure or the literature, and then he passed along to
3:04
Speaker 2: Kendae Owens. Yeah, I don't approove for that show. That's
3:06
Speaker 2: my personal two cents to how he's sorry to get
3:08
Speaker 2: down this rabbit hole.
3:09
Speaker 1: No, I'm glad you went there, because Candace Owens seemed to.
3:13
Speaker 1: When Charlie was killed, she seemed to try to say
3:17
Speaker 1: for some reason, it had to do with her, and
3:18
Speaker 1: you and I have talked about the text messages, the
3:20
Speaker 1: group chats that we've seen where Charlie does say, you know,
3:23
Speaker 1: if they keep it up, I'll bring back Candace Owens,
3:25
Speaker 1: which is sort of a sarcastic threat. He was never
3:28
Speaker 1: really planning to bring her back. So he brings that up,
3:31
Speaker 1: in other words, to say, don't meddle in what we're
3:33
Speaker 1: doing at TPUSA. You think it's bad that I had Tucker,
3:36
Speaker 1: I'll bring her back, you know, which she wasn't gonna do.
3:38
Speaker 1: You and I have talked at length about this. Charlie's
3:40
Speaker 1: great affinity for Israel completely flies in the face of
3:43
Speaker 1: everything Candace is saying about why he's no longer with us.
3:47
Speaker 1: She's made allegations or assertions or I don't want to
3:51
Speaker 1: say that she legally said that Israel killed him or
3:54
Speaker 1: that Trump killed him, but she's made assertions that would
3:56
Speaker 1: lead anybody with a brain to believe, Well, they're naming
3:58
Speaker 1: streets after him in Israel, Well they must. That's what
4:00
Speaker 1: they do when they kill you. They give you. They're
4:02
Speaker 1: giving you awards in Washington. That's what they do after
4:04
Speaker 1: they kill you. And again, somebody who, at least her
4:07
Speaker 1: public persona was pretty rational, whether you liked her or not,
4:11
Speaker 1: I thought she was fine, pretty rational, going completely to
4:14
Speaker 1: the extreme. So let me ask you for your opinion
4:16
Speaker 1: on this. Do you think that his murder on live
4:21
Speaker 1: video sets something off in her? Or do you think
4:23
Speaker 1: she always had this inner Because I don't get where
4:25
Speaker 1: she's going.
4:26
Speaker 2: She was going down this rabbit hole unfortunately for a
4:28
Speaker 2: long time now. I mean, look, she started in my
4:31
Speaker 2: telling the story in October twenty twenty two with the
4:34
Speaker 2: defense of Kanye, and Kanye was going full Haitler. Candace
4:37
Speaker 2: really escalated after October seven, twenty twenty three. For about
4:40
Speaker 2: a year or so after October seven, twenty twenty three,
4:43
Speaker 2: she was just saying some of the most vile stuff imaginable.
4:45
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember exactly when the Daily Wire fired her.
4:48
Speaker 2: I think it was March twenty twenty four, memory stars there,
4:50
Speaker 2: but she was essentially by by the time the Daily
4:54
Speaker 2: Wire fired her, Joe Candace was essentially spewing actual medieval
4:59
Speaker 2: blood libel, like essentially saying that the Jews have blood
5:03
Speaker 2: on their hands.
5:03
Speaker 1: There.
5:04
Speaker 2: It was disgusting stuff. I mean, I mean she was.
5:06
Speaker 2: She was liking and promoting things on social media right
5:09
Speaker 2: out of a nineteen thirties dur Sturmer Nazi cartoon. So
5:13
Speaker 2: I think she's been She's been going down here for
5:14
Speaker 2: a while now. Charlie's horrific, unspeakable assassination is definitely a
5:19
Speaker 2: turning point because he was institutionally I think, as you
5:22
Speaker 2: and I have priests discussed, he was one of the
5:25
Speaker 2: foremost keepers of the coalition. Frankly, one of the foremost
5:28
Speaker 2: gatekeepers of sanity. He was very very good, not perfect.
5:32
Speaker 2: I mean, I actually disagree with Charlie on some of this,
5:34
Speaker 2: but he was very good overall at knowing how to
5:37
Speaker 2: draw boundaries as to what is fair game for good discussion,
5:40
Speaker 2: what is outside the tent, what is not fair game,
5:42
Speaker 2: what is just bigotry, and what is just vile? And unfortunately,
5:45
Speaker 2: obviously Charlie's death is a tragedy for a million reasons.
5:48
Speaker 2: Not at least was that he was a personal friend
5:49
Speaker 2: of mine, but one of the many reasons that is
5:51
Speaker 2: so third of movement, the Maga coalition, all of us.
5:55
Speaker 2: We lost our best gaykeeper. And it's no, it's no accidents.
6:00
Speaker 2: At a month and a half after charlie'ssassination, Tucker Carlson
6:03
Speaker 2: was doing this bromance interview with Charlie's lifelong arch nemesis
6:06
Speaker 2: Nick flent Is, the leading no Nazis the generation Candice
6:09
Speaker 2: Owens has only gone even more extreme more tom there
6:12
Speaker 2: this particular so called investigative series or whatever the heck
6:16
Speaker 2: she's calling with Erica Kirk. I have no idea what
6:19
Speaker 2: she is trying to do other than just pure, pure malice,
6:23
Speaker 2: purely just trying to cause pain to a grieving widow,
6:26
Speaker 2: exactly what the Book of Exus says, absolutely do not
6:29
Speaker 2: do do the exact opposite of that there, and I
6:32
Speaker 2: guess she's chasing clicks. I guess she's chasing clicks because
6:35
Speaker 2: the tragic part of this show, which it really makes
6:37
Speaker 2: me quite sad for the stay of the country, is
6:40
Speaker 2: that can this has not been penalized for the pant
6:42
Speaker 2: that she's been on there. Her show continues to be
6:43
Speaker 2: very popular. It gets a lot of views, a lot
6:45
Speaker 2: of clicks. There are some metches of the show. It's
6:47
Speaker 2: actually only gained a popularity. That's an unfortunate thing to say,
6:50
Speaker 2: because it says really nothing good about a lot of
6:52
Speaker 2: folks who are consuming this kind of horrific content there.
6:55
Speaker 2: But unless until those incentive structures change, I'm not sure
6:58
Speaker 2: that we expected course correction anytime soon.
7:00
Speaker 1: Well, I wonder it is Josh Hammer. Go and check
7:01
Speaker 1: him out Josh Hammer Show wherever you get your podcasts.
7:04
Speaker 1: He's great Article three projects dot org as well. What
7:07
Speaker 1: bothers me is that you and I both know just
7:08
Speaker 1: from adsheer, she's making fifty thousand to one hundred thousand
7:11
Speaker 1: dollars per day just by putting that show on, with
7:13
Speaker 1: all the millions of clicks that she's getting, and when
7:15
Speaker 1: people like you and I come out and we say,
7:17
Speaker 1: this is why I've got a problem with it. She
7:19
Speaker 1: lied about the text messages, She lied about the meeting
7:21
Speaker 1: in the Hampton. She lied about what the letter said
7:24
Speaker 1: that Charlie sentinent Yahoo that's been released that basically he said,
7:26
Speaker 1: we want to help you in Israel because you're gonna
7:29
Speaker 1: lose the young people if you don't explain some of
7:30
Speaker 1: these things. She lied about all of that. Yet if
7:32
Speaker 1: you and I speak out about it, we lose hundreds
7:34
Speaker 1: of nine thousands of followers because she's got them all
7:37
Speaker 1: like mind numbed. So, Josh, why do you think in
7:40
Speaker 1: your heart of hearts anybody would watch this hit piece
7:43
Speaker 1: or these hit pieces on Erica Kirk and by any
7:45
Speaker 1: of it. She's a plan. She's masad. Her father was this,
7:48
Speaker 1: her mother was that. The birth certificate show at a
7:50
Speaker 1: different time, they weren't really married when they said they
7:52
Speaker 1: were married. I mean, this is such garbage it's not
7:54
Speaker 1: even worthy of daytime soap operas. But millions of people
7:58
Speaker 1: are gobbling it up and believing it.
7:59
Speaker 2: Why so, there is a broader story to tell here, Joe.
8:04
Speaker 2: The broader story, at least, as I tell it is
8:06
Speaker 2: as follows. For a very long time now, there have
8:09
Speaker 2: been a series of gaslighting operations against the American people
8:14
Speaker 2: from institutional elites, from those in power in both the
8:16
Speaker 2: public and the private sector. And my telling of the story,
8:19
Speaker 2: this begins at least as far back as the Russia
8:21
Speaker 2: Gate hopes, one of the great hoaxes in American history.
8:24
Speaker 2: Then you get into the Molar probe, which gobled up
8:25
Speaker 2: two and a half years the Trump presidency. Then you
8:27
Speaker 2: get to twenty twenty and the biomedical security state of
8:30
Speaker 2: this two tier system of lockdowns where Black Lives Matter
8:34
Speaker 2: was given a medical exemption to protest, but normal people
8:37
Speaker 2: couldn't go to church or sitting gag going out there.
8:39
Speaker 2: Then you have the twenty twenty election, although that entailed
8:41
Speaker 2: Hunter Biden laptop, the collusion between Jack Dorsey and Mark
8:44
Speaker 2: Zuckerberg and the FBI and the CIA, and in the
8:46
Speaker 2: fifty one deep state spoos who signed off in a
8:48
Speaker 2: letter calling the laptop Russian disinformation. And then you have
8:51
Speaker 2: the Biden presidency and unprecedented law fair the attempt to bankrupt, prosecute,
8:56
Speaker 2: and to incarcerate your top political opponent. So there have
8:59
Speaker 2: been a lot of massive scandals out on the open
9:02
Speaker 2: for which we have no accountability frankly whatsoever. And I
9:05
Speaker 2: believe that that has caused a lot of people out
9:08
Speaker 2: there to at their core lose the ability to trust anything.
9:13
Speaker 2: To to add his core, really lose the ability to
9:16
Speaker 2: separate and to discern right from wrong, truth from fiction,
9:20
Speaker 2: up from down, east from west, good from bad, et cetera.
9:23
Speaker 2: And when you have this level of entrenched distrust, I'm
9:27
Speaker 2: not saying, well, I to be clear, I am not
9:28
Speaker 2: saying a lot of that distrust is not deserved. A
9:30
Speaker 2: lot of it is deserved, or our our elites are
9:32
Speaker 2: our elites are terrible. But this is unfortunately, a very
9:34
Speaker 2: predictable side effect of where the body politic, the electorate
9:37
Speaker 2: just starts to lose lot, really any ability to trust
9:41
Speaker 2: those empowers that when you hear the truth, a lot
9:45
Speaker 2: of folks merely say that, can't possibly be sure. It
9:47
Speaker 2: has to be the exact opposite action, because why would
9:48
Speaker 2: I be told the truth all the beginning? For years
9:50
Speaker 2: and years, I've just been lied to. I've been lied
9:52
Speaker 2: to over and over and over again. There. So I
9:53
Speaker 2: think that this is really the cynicism that a lot
9:56
Speaker 2: of these folks but Candice really above all, she is
9:59
Speaker 2: really really tapping into the cynicism, and it's unfortunate. It's
10:04
Speaker 2: unfortunately because again, as I've said, I personally have lost
10:09
Speaker 2: a lot of faith in elites too. I think a
10:11
Speaker 2: lot of us have. Frankly, there's a lot of reason
10:13
Speaker 2: to have lost faith in elites there. But there's a
10:15
Speaker 2: big difference between losing faith in elites and going so
10:18
Speaker 2: far down the rabbit hole that you can't discern a
10:21
Speaker 2: grieving widow from being a complicit coponspirator in her own
10:25
Speaker 2: husband's asassination.
10:26
Speaker 1: It's Josh hammerd go check them out everywhere. You know,
10:28
Speaker 1: something you just hit on really makes a lot of sense,
10:31
Speaker 1: a ton of sense. The reason why we all started
10:34
Speaker 1: following and liking Tucker Carlson was that he was bucking
10:37
Speaker 1: the system, and he basically got fired because he was
10:39
Speaker 1: calling out the elites that were doing that's wrong. And
10:41
Speaker 1: Candice Owe's the same thing. She was bucking the system
10:44
Speaker 1: and calling out elites that were doing this wrong, calling
10:45
Speaker 1: out Black Lives Matter, making it a blexit and show.
10:48
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why she grabbed our attention. But now
10:51
Speaker 1: all they seem to have decided that everybody's wrong and
10:54
Speaker 1: only I'm right, which is very strange because Tucker went
10:58
Speaker 1: from really reliable source, really reliable guy that I like
11:02
Speaker 1: what he's saying, like what he's laying down to Israel's
11:04
Speaker 1: bad now and I'm not sure I understand and cut
11:07
Speaker 1: her somehow is good. I'm very confused by the entire thing.
11:10
Speaker 1: So let's let's go from Candas to Tucker for a second.
11:13
Speaker 1: If you don't mind, why do you think he's doing
11:16
Speaker 1: what he's doing. He lied about being detained at the airport.
11:18
Speaker 1: They flew in privately into Israel, they flew out privately.
11:22
Speaker 1: They weren't being detained. In fact, he was taking selfies
11:24
Speaker 1: with people. We've got an nonsecurity footage. Yeah, he had
11:27
Speaker 1: this guy on that lied about a Palestinian kid being
11:29
Speaker 1: killed in the streets when Mike Kuckamie said that didn't
11:32
Speaker 1: happen at all. And yet he still seems to be
11:34
Speaker 1: firmly anti. It's not just that he's for truth, he
11:38
Speaker 1: is anti Israel like to his core. Now, So, Joshuan,
11:41
Speaker 1: you've got a guy like that that we all trusted
11:43
Speaker 1: for so long. Has he always felt this way? Do
11:46
Speaker 1: you think or did something change? Was there an inflection
11:48
Speaker 1: point for a guy like Tucker Carlson that said Israel
11:51
Speaker 1: is the be all and end all bad on the earth.
11:55
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful question. And Tucker is where I focus
11:58
Speaker 2: a lot of my own attention these days, because he's,
12:00
Speaker 2: in my judgment, much more dangerous. Kennez Owens, at this point,
12:03
Speaker 2: is I think easily ran off, you know, except for
12:07
Speaker 2: the far far fringe, for all of us who are
12:09
Speaker 2: so relatively saying I think Cannas is easily ran off
12:11
Speaker 2: as a mental case, frankly, as someone who ought to
12:13
Speaker 2: be in insane asylum. Tucker is profoundly more dangerous because
12:17
Speaker 2: he is slightly more subtle, albeit it's getting increasingly less
12:21
Speaker 2: subtle by the day. With the thing with Tucker is,
12:24
Speaker 2: if you look carefully, Joe, it's really not just about
12:28
Speaker 2: about Israel. He obviously clearly hates Israel. I mean, it
12:31
Speaker 2: was about a month and a half, two months after
12:33
Speaker 2: October seven that he was saying that Ben Shapiro and
12:35
Speaker 2: Mark w. Levin want my sons to go die for
12:37
Speaker 2: a foreign country. Then in April twenty twenty four, he
12:40
Speaker 2: had this this infamously anti Semitic and anti Israel The
12:45
Speaker 2: quote unquote pastor on his show called Isaac Munter, who
12:48
Speaker 2: is in bethelhemy. He's basically a hamas Pa mouthpiece. Then
12:51
Speaker 2: later that year he had on Darryl Cooper, the neo
12:54
Speaker 2: Nazi apologist, to basically say that Winston Churchill was the
12:56
Speaker 2: chief villain of World War Two. That Hitler didn't mean
12:59
Speaker 2: to guess all the Jews has had a lot of
13:00
Speaker 2: these displaced persons, and you know what happens to displace
13:03
Speaker 2: persons there. He's called the Hebrew Bible aka the Old
13:06
Speaker 2: Testament full of genocide. He said that Diedrich Bonhoeffer, the
13:10
Speaker 2: great Christian martyr Bababaly. Charlie Kirk famously once said that
13:14
Speaker 2: Turning Point USA existed to build an army of Deedrich
13:17
Speaker 2: Bonhoffer's Tucker Carlston actually said that Deger Bonhoffer was actually
13:19
Speaker 2: a bad Christian. He separately said to Megan Kelly that
13:23
Speaker 2: the New Testament alone built Western civilization, which is rather
13:26
Speaker 2: curious because, among other things, the Book of Levintkiss is
13:29
Speaker 2: inscribed on the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia. So of course,
13:31
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean he's basically engaged in this full
13:33
Speaker 2: scale operation to not just rewrite Israel, but to rewrite
13:37
Speaker 2: the Jews.
13:37
Speaker 1: Josh, do we know? Why? Do we know? What happened?
13:40
Speaker 1: Was he always this way? He wasn't that way on CNN,
13:42
Speaker 1: He wasn't that way on Fox when he had a
13:44
Speaker 1: show there, did some Is there something palatable, something that
13:47
Speaker 1: that's actually I can grab a hold and say, ah,
13:50
Speaker 1: I see what happened? Some Jewish guy did something to
13:52
Speaker 1: Tucker because I'm not sure I get it, or Netty
13:54
Speaker 1: he hates net Yaho, net Yaho do something to Tucker.
13:57
Speaker 1: Do you was there something that happened? Or do you
13:59
Speaker 1: think there's a always in his gut?
14:02
Speaker 2: I have increasingly personally come to the conclusion this has
14:04
Speaker 2: actually always been in his gut, and that makes me
14:07
Speaker 2: really sad because, like you, it sounds like Joe, like
14:10
Speaker 2: really all of us in this space. I was a
14:12
Speaker 2: huge fan the guy. His monologues were absolutely must watch viewing.
14:16
Speaker 2: I was a former guest on Fox News show. We
14:18
Speaker 2: had very pleasant interactions. He was very gracious to me
14:21
Speaker 2: over interactional with the years there. I was a huge,
14:23
Speaker 2: huge fan of this guy. But after this came out,
14:25
Speaker 2: I started to look back at some of his old
14:28
Speaker 2: his old clips on Fox News and you know, in hindsight, Joe,
14:31
Speaker 2: it turns out that he he platforms a lot of
14:33
Speaker 2: suspect people. Actually, if you look very carefully, on a show,
14:36
Speaker 2: this nut job Jackson Hinkel, who's got millions of followers,
14:39
Speaker 2: he's an explicitly pro Commny, pro IRGC, pro Hesbola little
14:44
Speaker 2: troll on Twitter. Jackson hinkels given his first cable news
14:48
Speaker 2: platform on Tucker Carlson's old Fox News show. At one
14:50
Speaker 2: point he actually platform Max Blumenthal, who was essentially a
14:53
Speaker 2: Russian asset raised Zone just infamously anti American, anti Western,
14:57
Speaker 2: viciously anti y Israel propaganda. So but the warning signs
15:01
Speaker 2: in hindsight actually I actually were there. And my own
15:05
Speaker 2: two cents, Joe, is that after Fox News fired him,
15:08
Speaker 2: the editorial guardrails were essentially not there. So you can
15:12
Speaker 2: basically just speak his mind that he's doing a YouTube show.
15:15
Speaker 2: There's no reason for you to care about what Rupert
15:17
Speaker 2: Murdoch or News Corps says or anything there, and he
15:19
Speaker 2: kind of just let it loose. Now how he got
15:21
Speaker 2: those opinions in the first place, I don't particularly know.
15:24
Speaker 2: It's rather curious actually, because his late father, his late
15:27
Speaker 2: great father, I should say Dick Carlson was a staunch
15:30
Speaker 2: friend of Israel. Dick Carlson actually were for a while
15:33
Speaker 2: to think. Tang to DC called FDD the Foundation for
15:36
Speaker 2: Defensive Democracies, which among other things, is very very pro Israel.
15:39
Speaker 2: Dick Carlson self identified as a Christian Zionist, which is
15:42
Speaker 2: funny because Tucker Carlson, in his front his interview said
15:45
Speaker 2: that he hates Christian Zionists more than anyone on the
15:47
Speaker 2: face of the earth, which is just a remarkable thing
15:50
Speaker 2: to say because presumably that includes isis Hamas, trans Tifa, Antifa,
15:55
Speaker 2: black Lives Matter, you name it there. So it's hard
15:58
Speaker 2: for me to say why he went down this rabbit hole,
16:01
Speaker 2: but he clearly has, and his brother Buckley Carlson, who
16:05
Speaker 2: runs an utterly abhorrent Twitter feed, clearly they're they're drinking
16:08
Speaker 2: from the exact same fountain. And I get it. It's
16:11
Speaker 2: more dangerous because Tucker has decades of credibility built in there.
16:15
Speaker 2: He was an absolutely prolific and surgery journalist, a prolific
16:17
Speaker 2: writer by the way, too, not just a broadcaster, an
16:19
Speaker 2: amazingly gifted writer, just a very talented and smart guy.
16:22
Speaker 2: He's no dummy. He's operating at a very high intellectual level,
16:25
Speaker 2: so he knows exactly what he's doing there. Then, of
16:28
Speaker 2: coortunately makes him even more dangerous. But the key thing,
16:31
Speaker 2: Joe and I guess I'll stop heeople with the most
16:33
Speaker 2: important thing to recognize about all these people and I
16:36
Speaker 2: and to me Tucker is with the leader of this
16:37
Speaker 2: whole pack, is that they're actually not just anti Jewish.
16:41
Speaker 2: This is the key inside. They are deeply at the
16:43
Speaker 2: core anti American and anti Western civilization. If you look
16:47
Speaker 2: at what Tucker, he's really the best example here, if
16:50
Speaker 2: you look at what he's been saying and doing over
16:51
Speaker 2: the past few years. There he flies to Moscow to
16:54
Speaker 2: give this sycophantic interview to Poot and Pooh actually mock
16:56
Speaker 2: Tucker for not asking any hard questions. He does these
16:59
Speaker 2: bizarre propaganda videos from the Moscow supermarket of the Moscow
17:02
Speaker 2: train station. He gives two interviews to the Amir of Kattar,
17:06
Speaker 2: offering software interviews, a softwa interview to the President of Iran.
17:10
Speaker 2: He said that Trump should again Nicholas mcduall in Venezuela
17:13
Speaker 2: because Nicholas mcdurea is a staunch social conservative. Now he's
17:16
Speaker 2: saying that the Iran war is evil. He says he's
17:20
Speaker 2: calling despicable and evil. I mean, he literally just defends
17:23
Speaker 2: America's enemies at this point. He's just an apologist for
17:25
Speaker 2: America's enemies there, and that to me actually ultimately is
17:29
Speaker 2: the goal. And the reason that I think that he's
17:31
Speaker 2: arrived at this conclusion is because he took what I
17:33
Speaker 2: said earlier in our conversation. He took this notion that
17:36
Speaker 2: America's elites are so rotten, which I agree with, and
17:39
Speaker 2: he has taken that comically far to say that, Okay,
17:41
Speaker 2: if America's elites are so rotten, that actually means that
17:44
Speaker 2: America itself is rotten. America is actually a force for
17:47
Speaker 2: ban in the world, and in true horseshoe effects. That
17:50
Speaker 2: makes him strange ideological bedefellas with people like Barack Obama,
17:53
Speaker 2: with people like Zoramon Done, people like AOC's that they've
17:56
Speaker 2: come to see America as a force for evil in
17:59
Speaker 2: the world. It's very very said. They'll get to call
18:01
Speaker 2: it out for what it is.
18:02
Speaker 1: More on that serious division on the conservative side of
18:04
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Speaker 1: That's modern Rugged dot com. Then back to the interview.
19:00
Speaker 1: You it's Josh Hammer. You know, as a guy who
19:02
Speaker 1: made my living as a television news anchor and as
19:04
Speaker 1: a journalist for a long time. I'm now a host,
19:06
Speaker 1: and I'm an editorialist. I am for him interviewing everybody.
19:10
Speaker 1: I want him to interview nickquents, but you better challenge him.
19:12
Speaker 1: For some reason, he challenged Mike Huckabee more than he
19:15
Speaker 1: challenged Nick Wentz by a lot. He challenged Mike Huckabee
19:18
Speaker 1: way more than he challenged the guy from Cutter or Putin,
19:21
Speaker 1: which doesn't make any sense. You get that opportunity, you've
19:24
Speaker 1: got to ask the questions when you're in that role.
19:26
Speaker 1: And we are seeing him taking on some people where
19:29
Speaker 1: he's kind of a nice guy. Well he's a force
19:30
Speaker 1: to be reckoned with his Nick quentis, who I think
19:32
Speaker 1: is an absolute idiot. So I don't know why he's
19:35
Speaker 1: doing it, but you're right. I think he brings a
19:37
Speaker 1: lot more credibility with him because of who he was
19:39
Speaker 1: in those monologues and everybody it was mustye television to
19:42
Speaker 1: watch his monologues every night. And now he's taken that
19:45
Speaker 1: I think very good will and that credit that he's
19:48
Speaker 1: built up with us, and I think he's losing it,
19:50
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, and it's going to be
19:51
Speaker 1: a faction that loved Tucker, a faction that loved Candice
19:54
Speaker 1: and hopefully there's still space in people's minds and in
19:57
Speaker 1: their hearts for the truth. Let me talk about Israel specifically.
20:00
Speaker 1: I think I told you this before. My grandfather was
20:02
Speaker 1: from Italy, from Berry, Italy, and he was always going
20:05
Speaker 1: on and on about Israel, and me, as a young
20:07
Speaker 1: guy ten eleven, twelve years old, was always paying attention
20:10
Speaker 1: to what was going on. Grandpa, Why is there more
20:13
Speaker 1: war in the Middle East? What's the story with the
20:14
Speaker 1: Palestinians and the Israelis. I'm not sure I understand what's
20:17
Speaker 1: going on with Egypt and with Syria. I mean, I'm
20:19
Speaker 1: constantly asking these questions. And one day I said, why
20:23
Speaker 1: do we care so much about Israel. We're Christian. We
20:25
Speaker 1: think our religion is the right one. You're Jewish, Josh,
20:28
Speaker 1: you think your religion is the right one. I'm okay
20:29
Speaker 1: with that. And Christians and Jews have always gotten along.
20:32
Speaker 1: In fact, Judeo Christian values created a Western civilization, that said,
20:36
Speaker 1: my grandfather said, but Joey, with his very thick Italian accent,
20:40
Speaker 1: that's that a promised land to the chosen people. And
20:43
Speaker 1: I said, ok so I looked it up. I wanted
20:44
Speaker 1: to make sure that you know what I was getting
20:46
Speaker 1: from him made sense. That land is supposed to go
20:48
Speaker 1: to the Jews, period, That's what God said, and we
20:51
Speaker 1: believe that and we go with that. So why on
20:54
Speaker 1: earth can there be so many so called Christians that
20:57
Speaker 1: have so much of an issue with Israel even existing
21:00
Speaker 1: in that little strip of land over in the Middle East?
21:02
Speaker 1: Can you quantify that from my very small brain as
21:05
Speaker 1: to why anybody who believes like I do? And again,
21:08
Speaker 1: I think Christianity is the right religion. I'm not saying
21:10
Speaker 1: Judaism is better than Christianity. I never would say that,
21:13
Speaker 1: just like I don't think you would say Christianity is
21:14
Speaker 1: better than Judaism. But we get along, we like each other.
21:17
Speaker 1: Unlike other religions, we actually can coexist. Why do people
21:21
Speaker 1: hate that little piece of land?
21:23
Speaker 2: Look, it's a wonderful question. Look, I mean farbia from
21:25
Speaker 2: me to try to against the weeds of Christian theology.
21:29
Speaker 2: But look, there are a lot of Christians Joe for
21:32
Speaker 2: one reason another, who essentially view the Jews as having
21:35
Speaker 2: rejected the Abraham and Covenants because they rejected what Christians
21:38
Speaker 2: view as Messiah, Jesus Christ. And according to the same logic,
21:42
Speaker 2: therefore the Covenant was broken with the original children of Abraham,
21:46
Speaker 2: that this new covenant where the Church is the spiritual
21:49
Speaker 2: successor to the original children of Israel. And if you
21:53
Speaker 2: take that to its logical conclusion, what that means, according
21:56
Speaker 2: to this replacement theology or heart or super session is
22:00
Speaker 2: is that the promise is made to Abraham, including the
22:03
Speaker 2: lands promise, are ultimately going to be fulfilled by not
22:06
Speaker 2: his blood descendants, but his spiritual ascendants, which again, according
22:10
Speaker 2: to these folks, would be would be the Church. This
22:13
Speaker 2: has been repudiated though by a lot of people, including
22:16
Speaker 2: the Catholic Church itself. I should probably add in the
22:19
Speaker 2: Second Vagon Council in nineteen sixty five, so the Catholic
22:22
Speaker 2: Church is actually formally repudie of this position. John Paula,
22:25
Speaker 2: second Benedict, among other recent popes have not possibly been
22:28
Speaker 2: clearer about this, is that what I just said is
22:30
Speaker 2: not what the Catholic Church stands for. Despite a lot
22:33
Speaker 2: of folks like this idiot on the Commission carrier John
22:37
Speaker 2: Bohler trying to rewrite history. That's literally not what the
22:39
Speaker 2: Catholic Church in its own words, has said. Certainly, the
22:44
Speaker 2: late Great Charlie Kirk Joe would have endorsed every word
22:46
Speaker 2: that you just said. Charlie Kirk was as an evangelical,
22:49
Speaker 2: was very very much a Genesis twelve three kind of guy,
22:52
Speaker 2: the kind of guy who believed that God will bless
22:55
Speaker 2: those who bless the children of Visual and curse those
22:57
Speaker 2: who curse them. And one thing that I like to
22:59
Speaker 2: point out, Joe, is regardless of how you choose to
23:02
Speaker 2: quote unquote interpret these promises in Genesis about God blessed
23:06
Speaker 2: in children of Abraham, my point is that empirically, if
23:09
Speaker 2: you actually just look at global history, it's actually literally
23:12
Speaker 2: born out. And what I mean by that is societies
23:15
Speaker 2: that are good to the Jews tend in turn to
23:18
Speaker 2: prosper America of course, as the greatest example in global history.
23:22
Speaker 2: And the converse of that is that countries that turn
23:26
Speaker 2: on the Jews are never ever better off for it.
23:29
Speaker 2: I cannot think of a single example, literally, not one
23:31
Speaker 2: comes to mind of an example in world history that
23:34
Speaker 2: was better because they turned on the Jews. It's essentially
23:38
Speaker 2: as ironclad as the law of gravity. So regardless of
23:41
Speaker 2: what you may or may not believe, what you may
23:45
Speaker 2: not think as a matter of theology or biblical interpretation,
23:48
Speaker 2: hermonoid es, etc.
23:49
Speaker 1: Etc.
23:49
Speaker 2: There it's just empirically the case. And this is actually
23:52
Speaker 2: at its core, This, at its core is really the
23:55
Speaker 2: reason that I wrote my book last year, Israel and Civilization,
23:58
Speaker 2: that I'm probably going to write another book on a
23:59
Speaker 2: similar time, God willing and soon around the later is
24:02
Speaker 2: that I speak out here, Joe, not as a Jew,
24:05
Speaker 2: but as an American. That really that's the core. I
24:08
Speaker 2: love my country dearly. I clared for Federal Appeals Judge,
24:11
Speaker 2: I took an oath of the Constitution. I've written, Laura Vehicle.
24:14
Speaker 2: It's going on the top of losvel I cherish a constitution.
24:16
Speaker 2: I'm born Abraham Lincoln's birthday. For God's sake. I love
24:18
Speaker 2: this country so so much. It is such a part
24:21
Speaker 2: of who I am. And countries that turn on the
24:24
Speaker 2: Jews die. It's basically that simple. Again, it's a just
24:28
Speaker 2: read history, open a freaking history book. So the reason
24:31
Speaker 2: that I've been sounding the alarm so hard is not
24:33
Speaker 2: because I happen to be Jewish and care about the Jews,
24:35
Speaker 2: which I obviously do. It's because I care about America,
24:38
Speaker 2: the Jews. The Jews are going to be fine. Thank God.
24:40
Speaker 2: Israel exists, this is this is Jewish sovereignty, the white
24:43
Speaker 2: spress we haven't seen in two millennia. The Jews are
24:45
Speaker 2: going to be fine. They've been there here a very
24:47
Speaker 2: very long time. They're part of the the cosmological transcendental
24:52
Speaker 2: order of things there. The Jews will be fine. The
24:53
Speaker 2: question ultimately is will America be fine? And that's really
24:57
Speaker 2: what I've been pounding for some years now.
24:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, it and it's a great question. Now, will America
25:01
Speaker 1: be fine? I don't know. You see mom DOWNI showed
25:03
Speaker 1: up in the largest city that we have, and he's
25:06
Speaker 1: not only am I a Muslim, and not only am I,
25:09
Speaker 1: you know, a guy who doesn't believe like many believe.
25:12
Speaker 1: He's also literally using the words from the Koran in
25:15
Speaker 1: his speeches now and Mohammad said and that he has
25:18
Speaker 1: a peace be upon him in Arabic. I mean, the
25:20
Speaker 1: whole thing is very, very different than what I expected
25:23
Speaker 1: America'd be in twenty twenty six that said, I want
25:27
Speaker 1: to finish with you on Iran. And the reason I
25:29
Speaker 1: want to do this is I have been firm that
25:32
Speaker 1: I believe it's America first for us to be doing
25:33
Speaker 1: what we're doing. We know that Iran and Israel got
25:35
Speaker 1: along very very well before the Shaw was kicked out.
25:37
Speaker 1: We know that when the theocracy came in, the first
25:39
Speaker 1: thing was we want the blood of Jews to be
25:42
Speaker 1: flowing in the streets and death to America, death to Israel.
25:45
Speaker 1: We know that's been going on for forty seven years.
25:47
Speaker 1: Iran and this theocracy is the largest funder of terrorism
25:50
Speaker 1: on the planet and has killed probably thousands of Americans
25:53
Speaker 1: when you add in all the IEDs and everything else
25:55
Speaker 1: over in Iraq and everywhere else. They're trying to take
25:57
Speaker 1: out American interests and so on. And yes, they've they've
26:00
Speaker 1: had this proxy war with US through Israel the entire time.
26:05
Speaker 1: I think it's America first and is very clearly America first.
26:07
Speaker 1: Why would anybody disagree with that?
26:10
Speaker 2: It's a good question, I mean to me, it's pretty
26:12
Speaker 2: straightforward as well. Look, this is regime, Joe, Let's not forget,
26:15
Speaker 2: was founded on the four hundred and forty four day
26:18
Speaker 2: hostage crisis at the USMC. That was the founding moments
26:21
Speaker 2: of this regime. They have been trying to kill Americans
26:24
Speaker 2: tragically quite successfully, in place like the Babru Barracks nineteen
26:27
Speaker 2: eighty three, Places like those roadside IED's in Iraq in
26:30
Speaker 2: the two thousands. There, They've been trying to kill Americans
26:33
Speaker 2: for forty seven years. There was a reason that they
26:36
Speaker 2: call Israel the little say in America of the Great Dan,
26:38
Speaker 2: because they're specific, idiosyncratic strand of Sheite Islamism just despises America,
26:45
Speaker 2: just utterly despises us. They hate our guts, and they
26:47
Speaker 2: want to kill us. By the way, they want to
26:49
Speaker 2: kill Donald Trump too. And the guy who's appear on
26:51
Speaker 2: the Orbit sard that has actually now been taken in
26:53
Speaker 2: an Israeli airstrike, which is just remarkable. Look, if I'm
26:56
Speaker 2: trying to be most terrible possible, trying to steal man
26:59
Speaker 2: the argument as I would, I suppose the argument is
27:02
Speaker 2: that Iran can be contained. It's very Barack Obama like
27:06
Speaker 2: they try to say, you know, focus on what's happening
27:08
Speaker 2: at home there, trying to contain their nuclear ambitions. But
27:11
Speaker 2: the fundamental problem with this all along is that you're
27:13
Speaker 2: not dealing with the atheistic Soviets, where you can game
27:16
Speaker 2: out on a game theory chalkward. You're actually dealing, as
27:18
Speaker 2: Mark Ruby himself said this week, with theocratic religious lunatics
27:23
Speaker 2: who actually are trying to bring is mister Apocalypse and
27:26
Speaker 2: get their seventy two versions in heaven. That is very,
27:29
Speaker 2: very different than the Soviet Union at the height of
27:31
Speaker 2: the Cold War.
27:32
Speaker 1: There.
27:32
Speaker 2: Donald Trump hates Ron. He's been speaking speaking out about
27:36
Speaker 2: this for really his entire adult lifetime. There was this
27:38
Speaker 2: clip I saw this week of Trump giving an interview
27:41
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty calling for Jimmy Carter to use military
27:44
Speaker 2: action to get those hospitals. Ild it yesterday and.
27:47
Speaker 1: He literally said, we don't do it now. We're not
27:49
Speaker 1: gonna be able to do it. And he was beside
27:51
Speaker 1: himself like you and I are, and we were very
27:53
Speaker 1: young then, only you were around in eighty but very
27:56
Speaker 1: young watching him say it. He was so frustrated and
28:00
Speaker 1: so angry that Americans can be treated that way, and
28:03
Speaker 1: he said, we better do it now. We should have
28:04
Speaker 1: done it. It might be too late to do it now.
28:06
Speaker 1: So you're right. They based the entire existence of that
28:09
Speaker 1: regime on what they did there. But more importantly, and
28:12
Speaker 1: I think this is really important and disagree if you'd like,
28:14
Speaker 1: I definitely want your take on it. This is so
28:16
Speaker 1: much better than Iraq was. This is better than Afghanistan.
28:20
Speaker 1: For America and for Western civilization, because the people of Iran,
28:23
Speaker 1: ninety two million of them, want their country back. They
28:26
Speaker 1: want to rise up and have good relations in the region.
28:28
Speaker 1: They want to rise up and be more westernized in Iraq.
28:31
Speaker 1: They didn't necessarily want us to go on their nation build.
28:34
Speaker 1: Afghanistan certainly didn't want to. It's just a hodgepodge of
28:36
Speaker 1: a bunch of warlords. So do you agree with me
28:39
Speaker 1: that this can actually work this time if we do
28:41
Speaker 1: it right.
28:42
Speaker 2: I strongly agree. Look, Persia as a civilization goes back
28:45
Speaker 2: two and a half three millennia. There's a rich, rich
28:49
Speaker 2: civilizational history there. Prior to the Islamist Revolution ninety seventy nine,
28:53
Speaker 2: Persia ron what do you want to call it? What
28:55
Speaker 2: was a fairly western facing country. I mean there were
28:57
Speaker 2: women in blue jeans, smoking cigarettes going off to college.
29:00
Speaker 2: Canvas is there. I mean, was the shop perfect, No,
29:03
Speaker 2: of course not. But they were a very westerner line.
29:05
Speaker 2: They were closely allied with Israel and various other Western
29:08
Speaker 2: factions there. And it's very hard to get reliable polling
29:11
Speaker 2: inside this country today. Job but what we can say,
29:14
Speaker 2: based on the polling that we've seen is that a parality,
29:16
Speaker 2: if not likely an outright majority of Rundians likely actually
29:20
Speaker 2: a strong majority of Rudiance vementtally opposed vehmnenttly opposed the
29:24
Speaker 2: Iatola veminly posts the Molas that they hate their regime there. Now,
29:28
Speaker 2: does that mean that this is going to go over
29:29
Speaker 2: smoothly in that it'll be a Madisonian Jeffersonian democracy by
29:33
Speaker 2: this time next year. No, of course I'm not God willing,
29:36
Speaker 2: but I'm not rid of that. But what I can
29:38
Speaker 2: say is that it is emphatically in the American national
29:42
Speaker 2: interests that a regime that has been chanting death to
29:45
Speaker 2: America and trying to kill Americans for forty seven years,
29:48
Speaker 2: now that this regime be deprived of their blisted missile program,
29:51
Speaker 2: that they be deprived of their ability to make an
29:53
Speaker 2: intercontinental blisted missile, that they could prove their ability to
29:56
Speaker 2: acquire nucle weapons, and ultimately, ultimately, to a minimum a minimum,
30:00
Speaker 2: give the Persian people a fair fighting shot to take
30:04
Speaker 2: their country back. A country of ninety million people, it's
30:07
Speaker 2: a big country, it's a west worn country. Iran could
30:10
Speaker 2: be such a force for good in the Middle East
30:13
Speaker 2: and frankly on the world stage. There it's culturally very
30:15
Speaker 2: different than these backwater Arab countries, certainly very very different
30:19
Speaker 2: than the backwaters of Taliban overrun tribal World War, if
30:23
Speaker 2: gas end, it's a very very very different country. There's
30:26
Speaker 2: a specious comparison because it's superficial where you say, oh,
30:30
Speaker 2: no regime chance there, but you have to get a
30:31
Speaker 2: little deeper, Joe, which sounds like you've done to your credit.
30:34
Speaker 2: The comparison really kind of falls short.
30:36
Speaker 1: No, I think it does. And to make those comparisons,
30:39
Speaker 1: I think it's either disingenuous or they're just really not
30:42
Speaker 1: very smart. And I wish that they would study up
30:44
Speaker 1: and learn about it. The people of Iran have been
30:46
Speaker 1: begging for this. They're changing Trump's name in the street,
30:48
Speaker 1: They're waving American American flags in the street, and to
30:51
Speaker 1: their own peril, they're dying because of it. And I
30:54
Speaker 1: hope that there is a quick and swift solution to
30:56
Speaker 1: where they have got a better future. And I don't
30:57
Speaker 1: want to run the country. I don't want any ground
30:59
Speaker 1: troops in there, don't want to like that. This is
31:01
Speaker 1: not the same as the others. It's Josh Hammer. Go
31:03
Speaker 1: and check him out. Article three. Project Dot Org check
31:05
Speaker 1: out his great podcast, The Josh Hammer Show. I appreciate
31:08
Speaker 1: you come on, give me the name of the book again, Josh.
31:11
Speaker 2: The book Joe is Israel and Civilization, the fate of
31:13
Speaker 2: the Jewish Nation and the destiny of the Western.
31:14
Speaker 1: Go and get it right now. I appreciate your candidness
31:16
Speaker 1: with me every time you come on. And let's do
31:18
Speaker 1: it again very soon, my friend. Thank you.
31:20
Speaker 2: Looking forward to it all right.
31:21
Speaker 1: Brother, that's it for Unshaking and Unafraid with Joe PAGs
31:23
Speaker 1: this time another one to drop very soon. Make sure
31:25
Speaker 1: you subscribe.