Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / Angie Eng Interview

Transcript

Angie Eng Interview · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

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my guest today is Angie Ang Angie is the
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vice president of measurement
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addressability and data center at the
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IAB she has over 30 years of work
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experience in digital media and has
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worked for many years at a number of
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different places including being an
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executive at ad
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agencies more recently she is the
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creator of Angie's career Gazette a
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newsletter and forum for job seekers in
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digital media
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and that will form the basis for much of
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our conversation today Angie it is so
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good to talk to you great to see you
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James and uh it's been a pleasure we've
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known each other for quite a long time
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back in the days of when we were on the
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adops council at IAB trying to
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standardize ad verification and
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viewability that that that feels like a
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really long time go it does it does
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those are great times too so we'll get
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into some of what's changed here in a
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minute because I I think it's important
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to talk about the evolution but but
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before we go there uh or maybe because
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of the evolution of the industry what
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prompted you to start Angie's career
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Gazette and how do you define success
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for The
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Gazette yeah so um I I've always had a a
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good network of people that I've been
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connected with on LinkedIn and in
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2023 there were a lot of layoffs in our
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industry and um and a lot of people
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reached out to me asking me if I you
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know if I knew anything especially given
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my role at IAB where I have a good
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perview of what's happening in the
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marketplace and due to you know to the
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fact that I I have a fairly large uh
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connection networking poll and so I had
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done a lot of one-on-one interviews
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giving people advice and all that stuff
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and then I also had a friend Mark
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Goldberg who some of you people might
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know uh who started uh a Pay It Forward
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uh trend on LinkedIn where he saw a
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bunch of job postings he started to
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share those out and I started doing the
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same and as I was doing that in talking
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to some of my friends who were uh who
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were looking who had been laid off uh I
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noticed that I was giving them the same
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advice over over and over and over again
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so I felt it was important to maybe
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perhaps rather than try and do this
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individually that maybe to share some of
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my point of views as well as a lot of
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these job openings in one one space so
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that's that's how Angie's career because
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that kind of came into fruition it it
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started off as regular LinkedIn posts uh
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but there's a limitation on character
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limits for a LinkedIn post and I was
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posting any where between 50 to 60 Jo
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listings and so uh the uh I found this
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great feature on LinkedIn called
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LinkedIn newsletters that gives me the
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creativity and flexibility to make the
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content as long as I want uh and to
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share different types of content between
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videos that I see um some of the work
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that we do at IAB and then um uh
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allowing me to share my point of view on
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on different things so there's a there's
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a section in every newsletter that you
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see I start off with what we call
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Angie's thoughts and that can be
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anywhere from my perspective of giving
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career advice or anything that's
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happening in the industry that I think
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that is important for for people to to
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understand and learn about perfect thank
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you so one of the reasons I had reached
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out to you originally was I had seen I
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mean you and I had been talking much of
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2023 but at the end of 2023 you posted
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sort of a look back on some of the key
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trends and some of the key challenges if
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you could just summarize what do you see
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as the biggest challenges that job
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Seekers faced in 2023 that will probably
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continue into
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2024 yeah I mean our industry alone uh
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due to privacy
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regulations um the roll out of the
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deprecation of first party uh C uh third
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party cookies from uh from the Google
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Chrome team with privacy sandbox the
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changes from the constant changes that
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we see from Apple iOS uh in terms of uh
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user privacy and data
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protection a lot of that has started
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impacting our industry where um
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companies aren't generating the the
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right same amount of Revenue they might
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have over hired in
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2022
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2021 and so we've seen a the Marketplace
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kind of start right sizing themselves
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but at the same time with all
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these issues with generating Revenue
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we've seen a lot of layoffs so uh the
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impact has been privacy regulations the
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changes from privacy uh the upcoming
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changes from privacy sandbox um the
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shift
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towards uh
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CTV um and less and and concerns around
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um a audience targeting and measurement
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has really kind of created some
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fluctuation in our Marketplace I think
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that's going to continue into 2024 as
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well as into
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2025 and it's really important for
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people
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to kind of not live in what I what I
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consider a bubble right so if you've
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been at your job for a while or you you
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you know you you've been doing the same
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type of job or work work on a a certain
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type of role like social media
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programmatic it's really important to
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now expand your knowledge base to think
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about privacy regulations technical
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changes uh and the much bigger picture
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of what's affecting our industry so
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learn to upscale uplevel your knowledge
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base around all things outside of your
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day-to-day role and responsibility and
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really start evaluating what's happening
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uh across the industry and figuring out
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how that is going to affect your job
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role uh your organization and what are
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the things that you need to do to
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prepare and and uh develop solutions for
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so so let's drill into a couple of
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potential things they're in that
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category of you know major changes to
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the industry which could be viewed as
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threats or challenges but also
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opportunities you've mentioned one of
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them in privacy because privacy has the
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potential to create get some constraints
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on publisher revenue and how advertisers
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and agencies can operate but potentially
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it also creates opportunity for those
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who are experts in in privacy regulation
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a similar category might be the the rise
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of of AI where a lot of people are
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concerned about how it may impact their
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jobs by taking away or or moving some of
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the work but it also creates
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opportunities for those who are actually
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familiar with how it can be leveraged
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and impact and potentially even startup
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so where do you see the opportunity if
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you're talking about people expanding
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their skills or moving into new areas is
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you know you mentioned privacy is
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a about or and what are the other areas
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where there's potentially being
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disruption that people should be
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thinking about
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reskilling I think it's it's I think all
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of these things that are changing and
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impacting our industry are great
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opportunities for growth for every
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single person within our industry indry
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the more you Embrace these more you
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Embrace and understand these changes and
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really think strategically how this can
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impact certain types of roles certain Ty
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um an organization the more you become
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an expert or knowledgeable about these
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things the the the you can provide
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better
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recommendations you can rethink and and
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come up with some really innovative
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ideas uh network with various different
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organiz ations and different solution
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providers and understand what are the
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potential capability of those as you
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know so I would take those things that
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are frustrating the industry right now
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right become experts in them or become
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at least you know knowledgeable about
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them and and incorporate it into your
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everyday job right your everyday uh
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tasks
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because what what's happening is if if
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you don't and you keep doing what you're
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doing dayto
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day you're not going to understand why
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things why you can't compare benchmarks
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year-over-year and so what does that
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mean why are you seeing a drop in
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conversions on the back end well it
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could be because of some of the
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technical restrictions that we're seeing
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coming from Apple and from Google and so
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if you better understand that then you
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can be more creative on well how am I
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going to find solutions to help me fill
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in that that information fill in that
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Gap is it the use of AI is it the use of
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data modeling do I need to become a
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little bit more uh analytically Savvy do
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I need to you know up my skills in SQL
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in r or you know in in um um in in pivot
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tables even right
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so you get to start learning and and the
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more of the people that
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actually move towards that kind of
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mentality are are probably the ones that
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people are wanting to seek um uh to fill
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in uh a role within their organization
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they need people to think differently
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they need people to come up with
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different Sol so they're looking for
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proactive Executives proactive managers
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to help develop you know a a different
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approach to because a lot of the stuff
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that we were doing today isn't going to
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be around next year so I think it's
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important so staying on that same theme
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because you you've just been talking
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about how people need to expand and
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change their skill set while they're in
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a job I was going to ask you a question
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of what are your sort of top two or
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three pieces of advice for people in the
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industry in 2024 as they think about
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getting a new job whether it's expanding
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in their Network or what are the sort of
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things they should do um however you
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want to answer that and maybe the answer
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is the same if you're already in a job
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and thinking about you your job may be
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in Jeopardy what are the types of things
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that you should focus on however you
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want to approach that question yeah so
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regardless if you're looking for a job
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right now or you're currently in a role
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that you're happy with I think it's
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always good to prepare for the just in
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case right so um and that
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is networking is a is I think an
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important aspect of our industry being
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able to make connections and um and
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learn from others uh every day I go on
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LinkedIn every day I look to see what is
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trending I read the different Trad is
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trade uh articles out there I love
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hearing different perspectives uh and
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different and learn learn different
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skill sets from some of these from from
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some of these uh posts that I see on my
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network uh many there there's several
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webinars out there right they're all
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free um in fact I host a bunch of
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webinars um ones that are called like
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the state of data where we touch on a
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lot of these different things to help
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ensure that people are informed I think
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it's important to um there's this
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feature on LinkedIn called follow and
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con or
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connect um so if you're not comfortable
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always you know a lot of people want to
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keep their connections to people that
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they know which is which is great which
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is fine right but I do think that if you
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have been in this industry for a long
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time you should have in my
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opinion almost at least
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500 connections for every year that
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you've worked in this
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industry right so
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I've been in this for 30 years it would
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be great to have 15,000 connections
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which I do
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so um and and uh but not only do I do
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that but um there are some people where
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hey maybe a connection I I might not
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want to connect with them but I follow
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them and when I follow them and I see
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their post I respond to their post right
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I like it I make a comment and so those
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people who I'm following they may
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reciprocate uh and follow me and so
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therefore now I've expanded my
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community um but being very active
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within your network is really important
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and that helps you not only prepare for
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your job in the future but it also helps
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with your job search right now right so
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um I've found I've been able to connect
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several people uh to that don't know
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each other through this philosophy of
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like like I had a friend say hey do you
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know so and so forth from this company
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they just have a they I just saw a job
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listing now I might not know that person
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very intimately but because I'm very
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active on
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LinkedIn um I'm sure they've seen my
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post a lot so when I make connections
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I'll be like sure I'll even though I
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don't know I'll make the connection and
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there are tons of people out there in
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this quote unquote pay it forward kind
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of movement who are doing the same and
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so um I highly recommend connect you
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know I I wrote an article about do you
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connect or do you follow so read that
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article from the from the Gazette and
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make a decision of of doing that but I
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think networking and creating a brand
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for yourself out there uh helps you
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prepare for any job role in the future
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and proves to your managers that you're
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on top of your game yeah I mean just
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building what you said about you know
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the Pay It Forward Community you know I
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left my last sort of corporate role just
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over a year ago and for a number of
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months was trying to work out what to do
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with my time and I reached out to
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hundreds of people and was just
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overwhelmed by how generous people were
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by answering questions about what they
15:18
were doing how they thought about
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basically working in general and so I
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think anyone who's concerned about oh I
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don't want to impose too much on their
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time they'll tell you if they're too
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busy they may not make the time but 99%
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of the people that I reached out to made
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half an hour an hour for a conversation
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yeah I think it's it I think there's so
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many great people out there that are
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that they see what's going on in the
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marketplace and uh and and more than
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willing to help out their fellow
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colleagues um let me uh ask you a
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question about sort of the r what at
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least what I perceive is the rising use
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of different slack groups within the
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industry and again I don't it's hard for
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me to separate whether this is a new
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trend or whether it's just a trend I
16:07
became aware of but there's been um
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certainly in the last sort of six months
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or Year adtech God started a slack
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channel for industry I think the uh was
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it Mark Goldberg who's done the the Mad
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Tech am I right in that one so what's
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your thoughts when you because you've
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been talking a lot about you know sort
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of the LinkedIn and how to use the
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newsletters the follow feature as a tool
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for establishing your brand how
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important do you think participation in
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those sort of slack online communities
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is oh those slack so there's also uh
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beertech has a Discord it's not on slack
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it's on Discord but beertech has a
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Discord I don't know why he doesn't have
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it on slack I'm gonna have to ask him
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that so Baylor why do you not have it on
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slack anyway
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um those are great forums for helping to
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answer
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questions um
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that you as an individual know that
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there're because they're I would say
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they're very cohort-based right so the
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people that are in those slack channels
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you have some sort of
17:19
commonality um at Tech God there's a lot
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of questions especially For Engineers
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developers um people who are
17:29
analytics um especially on the
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programmatic side where there's lots of
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questions about how do ad servers work
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uh issues with supply chain uh uh and uh
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how do people handle C troubleshoot
17:44
certain issues so there there it creates
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some sort of community where you know
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that hey when I ask a question out there
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someone's going to
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respond um and you can have offline
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conversations whereas I think LinkedIn
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is more around thought
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leadership and sharing of events and and
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networking this is really a community
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where you get
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to feel very intimate with a bunch of
18:14
friends and you can have back and forth
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conversations and it's hard to do a back
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and forth conversation in a in a in a
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post even though you can it's same
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functionality it's just it's a different
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vibe yep got it coming back to the
18:29
growing parts of the industry because
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I'm I'm a big believer and if you're
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trying to find a job or or grow your
18:35
career you want to tie your career in
18:38
some sense to areas that that are
18:41
growing and you know what's top of mind
18:44
for you is it retail media networks is
18:47
it CTV is it sort of the wall Gardens
18:51
how do you think about if you're someone
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trying to redefine your career in in in
18:56
digital media how do you think about the
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areas that are likely to grow for the
19:00
next couple of years yeah so from the
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from
19:06
the all all of those CTV is
19:10
growing
19:13
podcasting retail media networks or uh
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and I think retail media networks are
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going to evolve into Marketplace
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networks so think of uh where it's not
19:22
just retailers that
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are leveraging their data for
19:28
monetization to enable um to as as a
19:32
sales to but you're going to also see
19:35
other other verticals or categories cpg
19:39
companies will likely get into this
19:41
travel has already started I think they
19:44
probably will be financial services at
19:47
some point um I think the entertainment
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industry right so I think I have a
19:55
feeling like the NBC's The Disney Plus
19:58
is going to leverage their subscription
20:00
base and not only leverage it to Target
20:03
people within this their streaming
20:04
platforms but lightly also create some
20:06
sort of marketplace for them so that
20:08
they can Target those in individuals
20:11
outside of their o o based on some of
20:15
the shows that people watch and create
20:17
cohorts around them right um yep so I do
20:21
think that that that Marketplace
20:23
networks are going to be a thing um as
20:26
well as contextual targeting
20:28
so if you're if you're interested in
20:30
contextual AI um both from a generative
20:34
a a creative standpoint creative and
20:36
content uh tools and platforms that
20:39
are uh that we're seeing several new
20:41
tools come into the marketplace but I
20:44
also see um the use of AI in measurement
20:49
and
20:50
attribution um and I think a lot of the
20:52
companies like data clean rooms cdps
20:56
cmps any company that Leverage is a lot
20:58
of data um for analytics and insights
21:02
they're going to really grow pretty
21:05
pretty aggressively in 2024 got it um
21:10
let's talk a little bit about the
21:11
emotional side of doing uh a job search
21:15
because it's very easy for you and I to
21:16
sit back here and analytically say here
21:19
are the things you do get on you know
21:21
LinkedIn grow your brand be in slack be
21:23
part of one of these growing areas in
21:25
the industry but for a lot of people who
21:27
have been in a stable job for a long
21:29
time maybe they're blindsided by being
21:31
laid off or for whatever other reason
21:33
they're finding that they're having to
21:35
do a complete shift in their career what
21:38
advice do you have for them uh in terms
21:41
of thinking about the tools or the
21:43
emotional support network that they need
21:46
to be able to basically execute against
21:49
a good job
21:50
search that's a really hard question I
21:53
don't know if I'm I'm going to be able
21:54
to answer that well but I will say that
21:58
based on some of the conversations that
22:01
I've had with people they feel very
22:04
insecure right now if they haven't been
22:08
building their brand and growing their
22:11
Network that it's they have what is it
22:15
called um um impostor
22:18
syndrome yeah so right so a lot of a lot
22:21
of people feel very deflated because
22:23
they've been laid off um they they feel
22:26
like they maybe you know they second
22:29
guess their skill sets their knowledge
22:32
and they're like why would someone want
22:33
to connect and follow me why would
22:36
someone accept uh a connection uh
22:40
request if I send it to
22:42
them my my advice is get over it get
22:46
over
22:47
it build build your brand get out there
22:52
because I've been in that situation I've
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been in that situation many many times
22:57
and
22:59
I would say that leaning on your
23:03
network is how many people get their
23:07
jobs and the fact that you know if I
23:10
call someone or reach out to someone and
23:14
they knew me they're like you know what
23:15
I know the work that you do I've seen
23:18
you I've seen you at events I've heard
23:20
what you said I know you know this
23:23
person um I'm more than happy to
23:26
introduce you to
23:28
so and so forth or uh I think you should
23:33
consider you know consider going to
23:36
client side which which happened for me
23:38
right so uh they said you would be a
23:40
great fit for this client role like and
23:42
I was like I don't have any skill sets
23:44
in in on client side they're like yeah
23:47
but you have this knowledge base and I
23:49
think Morgan Stanley would benefit from
23:52
having someone like you right so people
23:56
can see
23:58
don't I I think especially your previous
24:01
managers they can see like
24:03
what you're capable of doing based on
24:08
their interaction or their perception of
24:10
you and
24:13
so try not to be I know it's hard to to
24:17
to not be negative but you know pick
24:20
yourself
24:23
up you have a voice you have
24:26
experience you know know things and and
24:29
share those out so that people can
24:31
actually see uh that you that you know
24:35
your stuff and it's all about showing
24:37
what you know and the more you show what
24:40
you know the more people will have
24:42
confidence that you know what you're
24:44
talking about or that you perhaps could
24:47
fill a role that might be Rel related to
24:50
it so I wasn't an analytics person like
24:53
I don't really have a data I'm not a
24:55
data scientist right I I was an account
24:58
executive I was a media buyer and I was
25:00
an adops but I am very analytical and so
25:04
people have seen that and so which is
25:07
part of why I think I got this role here
25:09
at IAB they saw that I have business
25:12
requirements logistical skills I
25:14
understand some of the technical stuff
25:16
and so they were able to piece that
25:19
perception of me together and so thank
25:21
you uh Randall rothenberger and U
25:24
Rothenberg and uh Dennis Binford hir me
25:28
here at I at the
25:30
time um just building on that my own
25:33
personal experience you know because I
25:34
already mentioned that last year I you
25:36
know started reaching out to do a
25:38
listening tour of 50 or 100 people and I
25:40
found it really difficult at the start
25:42
to reach out to people hadn't
25:43
necessarily connected with in the last
25:46
10 years and I'm be like oh you know
25:48
they're going to be annoyed if I'm
25:49
reaching out to them out of the blue it
25:51
has been a fantastic process there have
25:53
been people that I worked with 10 years
25:55
ago lost contact work who I now either
25:59
work with or see every week and the
26:02
process once you get into okay I'm going
26:05
to reconnect with my network can
26:07
actually be a really energizing thing as
26:10
I I don't want to downplay the fact that
26:12
there is um some angst you need to get
26:15
over to start that process but I would
26:18
been blown away by how sort of enriching
26:21
it's been to reestablish some some of
26:23
those connections from from the last 10
26:25
years yeah and I would say like don't be
26:27
embarrassed that you were laid off or
26:29
fired from a job right um I think a lot
26:34
of people in our industry understand
26:37
what's going on in the marketplace and
26:39
they're not going to count it against
26:41
you for if you were laid off or
26:45
fired um this has been a fantastic
26:48
conversation Angie let let's try to
26:50
finish with some optimism what are you
26:53
most optimistic about going into
26:56
2024
26:58
I love the fact that our industry is
27:02
Shifting towards a privacy by Design and
27:07
that we have to be more creative and
27:09
Innovative so we're g to and the and the
27:12
the use of AI is just going to make it
27:15
even more fun we're going to have lots
27:18
of different tools at at our
27:20
fingertips lots of different changes are
27:23
going to happen in the
27:26
marketplace you're going to have to be
27:29
creative in the way that you think about
27:31
your approaches to Operations Logistics
27:35
strategy
27:36
media and the advancements of you know
27:40
with the with h fiber optics with uh
27:43
cloud-based
27:45
technology um iots right I think it's
27:49
going to be a lot of fun I can't wait
27:51
for AR and VR to be like to blow up
27:55
right and and be able to like create
27:57
experiences and bring brand experiences
28:00
into those environment and have people
28:02
really engage and interact so I think
28:04
there's a lot of stuff like I talk we
28:06
talked a lot about like some of the the
28:10
uh challenges but I do think like we
28:12
said earlier there are opportunities and
28:14
there's going to be the next five years
28:16
is going to be a fun roller coaster
28:19
excellent thank you Angie again to
28:21
everybody who is not already following
28:24
Angelina in on Angie's career Gazette on
28:28
LinkedIn please do that if you're not
28:30
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28:32
please hit the Subscribe button right
28:33
now thank you so much Angie thank you
28:38
James great
28:43
pleasure