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Food Addiction & Body Image: The Hidden Struggle · Recovering Out Loud

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Welcome back or welcome to Recovering Out Loud, the podcast
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where we get real about mental health and addiction recovery.
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Today's guest is Natalia Fomichenko, an ICF certified
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career and confidence coach based in London, England and the
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Co founder of La Visionaire, A thriving community for ambitious
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international women. Before becoming a coach, Natalia
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built a powerhouse resume in consulting, earned her MBA from
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London Business School and Columbia University, and held
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leadership roles in fast growing tech companies.
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But behind the scenes, she was silently struggling with an
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eating disorder that forced her to rethink everything she knew
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about success and self worth. Now in recovery, Natalia helps
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high achieving women redefine confidence and build lives on
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their own terms. In this episode, we explore the
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hidden layers of food addiction, body dysmorphia, and the
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parallels with substance use. We discuss how control and shame
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fuel disordered eating and sobriety.
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Body image struggles that continue even after quitting
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substances. Learning to re parent your inner
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critic, what true recovery feels like and how to reclaim it.
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If you've ever felt like you've swapped addictions or you're
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silently battling a toxic relationship with your body and
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food, this one's for you. Please follow and subscribe to
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support the channel. We appreciate you enjoy the
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show. Hello Natalia, how are you doing
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today? Hello, Anthony.
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I'm great. Thank you for having me.
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Thank you so much for taking the time you're calling in from the
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UK. And yeah, I really appreciate
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it. We had a really good
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conversation before this and I'm looking forward to our
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conversation today. You know, we, we talked about a
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lot of, and we're going to talk about a lot of the parallels
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with, you know, food addiction and eating disorders and
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addiction in general, right? So I, I want to get right into
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it, but how do you think, do you want to describe, actually,
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let's do this? Do you want to describe a little
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bit about, you know, your story, how you came into this field and
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how you help other people get through this as well?
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Yes, sure. So addiction topic is close to
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my heart, but it's not the usual addiction.
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It is an eating disorder. So I used to have an eating
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disorder for seven years. There are multiple eating
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disorders on the market. I had a binge into eating.
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I had a binge eating disorder which is basically consuming a
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lot of food when you feel down and when you have self
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deprecating thoughts. It was very similar to your
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usual chemical addiction or alcohol addiction in the sense
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that it's the eternal circles of dissatisfaction, looking for
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some pleasure in your life. Going into a binge with food, in
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my case, and then feeling distracted during the binge.
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But then right after feeling the immense amount of guilt and not
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not liking your life at all, promising yourself that you will
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stop tomorrow. And before tomorrow you're going
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to just do, you know, twice, 3 * 10 times more food consumption
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than usual because tomorrow you're stopping.
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And then tomorrow you feel so bad about yourself when you wake
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up that you just repeat the cycle.
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And I live this life. And I didn't tell anyone that I
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had this. Only my close people knew, but I
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think it's important to bring awareness about this topic
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because in in the high chipper world that I live in, which is,
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you know, your normal prestigious companies, good CDs,
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making it in your career, people sometimes think that, you know,
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it's it's easy, everybody's capable and everybody is
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capable. But sometimes people are
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battling things like this when nobody knows and they think that
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it's a weakness to admit those things.
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And I thought that I shouldn't admit those things and I would
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never, I, I would never admit it if if I wasn't out of it, to be
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honest. But I think now what's important
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to me with this conversation is to show people that problems
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exist. It's not just a facade of
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success and there is a way out. It's not a very straightforward
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way, it's not a magic peel overnight, but there is a way
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out and I think it's important to know.
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Yeah, no, I I agree. And it's, it's kind of funny.
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You know, when I started this podcast, I knew I was going to
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Start learning. That was one of my goals was to
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Start learning about other mental health addictions, you
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know, the whole world of of really mental health and the
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different things that people battle with until, you know, I
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hadn't noticed until I kind of started talking to you and met
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you. I always knew that I had an
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unhealthy relationship with food at one point.
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Today I can say that, you know, I don't count my calories.
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I don't obsess over my body image as much as as I used to.
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And I hadn't realized until I talked to you that, yeah, I went
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through a phase in sobriety, you know, being clean and sober from
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drugs and alcohol where I was. Absolutely, absolutely obsessed
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with the way I looked. And it wasn't until therapy as
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well that I realized, you know, every morning I woke up, the
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first thing I would do was look in the mirror at my body and,
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and start these, these words of like, oh, you ate too much last
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night. Oh, you're swollen, you're fat,
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you're. And it was like, it's like this
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unconscious conversation I was having with myself every day and
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I was starting off every day like that.
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And, you know, it was, it was really destructive, you know,
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because exactly like you said, I would start counting my calories
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and say, you know, today I'm going to do better.
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And no, I can't go out. And it would start affecting my
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social life. And, you know, I wouldn't go to
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restaurants and places because I was afraid that I wouldn't be
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able to control my eating and my, my, you know, my calorie
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intake. Or I would go to the gym and, or
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go for, you know, 20 mile runs and kind of punish myself that
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way, you know? I understand you so much.
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I used to work in management consulting and I worked in Saudi
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Arabia on projects. So I flew to Saudi.
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I would fly to Saudi from Dubai where I was based and I work the
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entire day and there would be, it's not much pleasure in my
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life. And I would seek for pleasure.
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And so I would come back to my hotel room where I was staying
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and the mini bar was usually paid for by the company.
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And so I would eat the entire mini bar.
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And I, I still remember that it's two boxes of nuts.
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And I always start with cashews. Yeah, because it's like healthy,
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you know, like it's just a little bit.
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And then you get to the, you know, half of the, of the box
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and then they're like, OK, I'm half through.
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So let me just finish it. And then, Oh my God, I've just
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finished the box. So now nothing really matters.
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So let me get Toblerone, let me get chips, let me get
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everything. And so after that, I would go to
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the hotel gym. It would be about 11:30 on
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midnight. And keep in mind that I was
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working, you know, way more than 8 hours per day.
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And I was supposed to wake up fresh next morning very early.
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And I would run there 10K, you know, almost dying just because
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I ate that minibar. It was terrible.
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Yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of
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parallels between our stories. And, you know, I was always told
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by somebody in recovery that, you know, it's the same shit,
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different shovel. And I always love that because
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it doesn't matter what I use externally.
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I'm the exact same as the food addict.
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I'm the exact same as the gambling addict.
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I'm the exact same as the heroin addict.
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You know, just because I didn't get into heroin yet doesn't mean
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that I'm any different. You know, it's using outside,
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it's using external things to change my inside, Right.
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Full stop. End of story.
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So I think there's a lot of parallels, yeah.
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And that's precisely the reason for addiction, because we are
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using the external tools to change the inside, because the
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belief is that we have to change something inside.
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Because the again, the underlying belief is that as we
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are right now is not enough, we need to be better.
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And so this belief, this very thought, conscious or
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unconscious, produces this feelings of dissatisfaction with
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ourselves, with, you know, annoyance with our life.
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And that feelings, you know, require action to release this
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emotional pressure. And so we eat or drink or do
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drugs or whatever. And then we have the result,
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which is again self deprecation and you know this hollow, you
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know, whole of regret. And the, the, the solution is to
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change the thoughts. So because it all started with
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the thoughts. And when we think of ourselves
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as you know, we are addicts or you know, we are incapable or we
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are not enough, whatever resonates with you most, it
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means that we are only focusing on what's wrong with us and we
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do not even give ourselves a chance to notice what's good
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with us. And normally in my experience,
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people who are, who have addictive behaviours, they are
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very interesting, creative, emotional, sensitive, deep,
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thoughtful people. And because their moods and
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their outlooks and perspectives and open mindedness is, is
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sometimes so high that's, you know, results in, in them being
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more anxious about, you know, what's going on and you know,
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what's going on in, in them. And so when they, when, when we
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those people, when we don't notice there's good things about
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us and we only focus on, on the bad things, we will always keep
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having the, you know, the repeat cycles.
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Yeah, the cycles. The only Yeah.
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Yeah, it's, it's this, you remind me of this idea of, of
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being grateful, right? Gratitude.
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It's pretty damn hard to be grateful when you're noticing
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all the bad things in life and, and especially about yourself.
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You know, I, I, I really, you know, I truly realize that this
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is a, a difficult conversation to have with somebody where it's
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like, hey, I have this really unhealthy relationship with food
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and I'm not happy about it. How did you sort of get to that
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place of recognizing, like what, what, what led you to recognize
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that there was a problem? And then how did you bridge the
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gap between reaching out for help?
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Yes, that's the most important question.
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I'm a coach, and that was not by chance.
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I became a coach as a result of my own searchings of how to tame
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my mind. So that it's not that my mind is
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my master, but I'm sort of the master of my mind.
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And it took me years, but coaching work as a coachee and
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then later as a professional coach helps me understand how
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mind works and how I can change this thoughts.
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Because remember, everything starts with a thought.
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Because thoughts leads to feeling, feeling leads to
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action, action leads to results. And if we are not happy with the
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results, which is relapse for instance, then we need to change
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the thoughts. But again, of course, it's not
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that easy to start thinking all the good things about ourselves
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straight away. So working on your thoughts
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starts with recognizing that we are often thinking very
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disempowering thoughts and asking yourself, OK, but if we
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are always criticizing, if there is this inner critic voice that
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is always dominant in our head, I'm sorry, but where is our
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advocate? Like, I'm sorry, why do we only
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have critic? So you start basically almost
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objectively approaching to the voices of your head, in your
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head to understand who is speaking.
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And it takes it's process, it takes time.
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So once you build this awareness and you realize, OK, this is my
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critic speaking, this is my critic speaking, this is my
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critic speaking, and you don't notice the advocate, then you
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start asking yourself, OK, how can I bring the advocate voice?
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And then you start noticing other voices.
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You know, I have multiple voices in my head.
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And by the way, it's normal. Like I have a diva voice, you
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know, she needs to be the best. And, and if if she's for some
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reason not the best, you know, a critic comes in and starts
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criticizing and there's like multiple, there's a child voice
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in my head of like, oh, I'm afraid, what do I do?
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You know, so there are multitude of voices.
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And so the first step is awareness of who is speaking.
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Now the second step is finding that see your voice in your head
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because there's so many voices, but then somebody needs to
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manage them. So the idea is that you become
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the leader in your own head. So you take you think of
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yourself as a company and you have to start leading that
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company. Well, you have to step up.
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So now you are faced with the question, OK, and who is the
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leader? How can I, you know, talk to all
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those voices to find out what's they point, what's important to
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them, what do they want? And how do I actually make the
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decision instead of having the chaos of whoever is speaking,
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you know, and doing whatever, you know, anarchy, so to say.
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So you have to step up as a CEO in your head and for that you
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have to kind of grow up a little bit because in my case, I've
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noticed I spent a lot of time in my child mode.
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It's like, oh, I don't like this.
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I don't like that. You know, this is bad.
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Oh, like, and this is, this is, you know, it's not like we have
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to eliminate any words. Child is great when you are
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experiencing something new, when you are enjoying the moment,
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when you're like allowing yourself to do something fun.
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You know, that's where your child steps in.
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But then as ACO, you need to understand when and where each
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voice is needed and organize them.
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And so the second step is to step up as ACO and know which
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voice to listen to in which situation.
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And once you master that, then you realize that, OK, now I have
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full visibility of what's going on in my head and now I can
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choose. So there is this choice that
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comes up and now I can choose, OK, if I, if I keep thinking
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that, then it's likely to lead me in this hole and I'm likely
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to binge. And do I, do I want that?
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And you know, when you're not ready yet for this conversation
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with yourself, then the child would step up and ask, Oh no,
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like I don't like this rules. You know, whatever I'll be.
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That's what happened to me for so many years.
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But once you're ready, once you really nurture this, see your
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voice in your head, then you will start feeling this choice
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and being empowered by this choice.
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Yeah, I, I love that analogy. I've never heard that before.
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Thank you for that. That's great.
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It's like a company in there, you know, and yeah, there there
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is a CEO at the end of the day that can come in and kind of
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override and say, hey, you know, little guy or girl, you're not
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serving us right now. This is not serving me, right?
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And I find that especially true in social situations too, where,
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you know, somebody does something to me or somebody
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doesn't drive the way I want them to drive or somebody
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doesn't agree with my ideas. And this kind of inner ego
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child, if you will, comes out and is like, no, I'm right,
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you're wrong. And I always say this, but my
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biggest problem today is I'm right.
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You know, that's my biggest problem is I'm right.
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My way is the right way. You're wrong, wrong.
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I'm going to do it this way and that kept me sick for so, so
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long, right? This, this recovery thing is too
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hard. You know I don't deserve this,
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right? All these these false beliefs
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and negative thoughts about myself.
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Yeah, yeah, it's, it's out of balance, right?
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If you're punishing yourself too much, you need to compensate it
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by thinking in some point of your life like, I'm the best,
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I'm right, I'm, you know, the coolest here.
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But then you realize that, well, you're not really the best
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because there is not such a notion.
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And so you have to punish yourself.
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So it's always like being on those extremes that is not
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helpful to you first and foremost or to me.
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I say, yeah, I've been there. So I I really can relate.
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I I agree. So this comes up in the
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workplace, which is where, where you kind of focus most of your
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time. Like what does this kind of look
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like when a a person in the corporate world or a person in,
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you know, a business world kind of comes to you and, and what
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does that look like? It comes to me.
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Well, you mean as a coach, Yes. So I do not work specifically
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with eating disorders. I have to say what I work with
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is getting fulfillment out of your career.
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And sometimes it means overcoming an eating disorder
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because usually an eating disorder is a, a consequence
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either of your mindset or of some deep dissatisfaction with
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your life. And in my world, a big part of
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life of people I work with is career.
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So if you're dissatisfied with your career, even if it looks
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great on paper, but then there's this inner voice telling you,
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look, you know, I'm not really realizing my potential or I can
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do more or whatever it is. Then it becomes a constant
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source of pressure and sometimes people escape into drinking or
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eating or whatever it is. And so I work to help people get
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clarity on day career on what they actually like doing, what
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they actually want doing, and give them confidence and right
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mindset tools to be able to to do the change and to battle
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these inner voices that we all have.
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And again, the point is not to eliminate them, but to
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understand them because if they're there, then they are
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serving you. They have certain purpose.
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The critic has a purpose to basically risk manage if, if we
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are still in this metaphor of, of a board meeting, so to say,
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where there is ACEO, the critic can be the director of risk
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management, you know, And so when he's given too much power,
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he starts criticizing everything because by nature of his job, he
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needs to manage all the risks. And then I don't know who else
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your child could be. I don't know, like someone who,
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I mean, you can think about the analogy of of the boardroom.
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Maybe it's it's it's a strategy director who is great with
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vision and and being excited about things, but.
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Yeah, like new ideas and creative adventures.
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Yeah. Exactly.
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Exactly. So you see, you, you have to
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understand those voices. You have to understand what you
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know, how they're helping you and and find a way to negotiate
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with all of them so that's they all work in harmony rather than
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in, you know, an artistic mode. Yeah, yeah.
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Driving the bus forward, you know, it reminds me, so I was a
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manager for a long time where I had a team of people under me
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and there was guys, you know, my company was, was basically as we
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were, you know, KPI, one of our highest KP is was sales.
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You know, we had to drive sales, drive leads for, for the sales
21:26
team. And I would have, you know, guys
21:28
on my team that were not necessarily good at sales, but
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they had strengths and strengths in other areas, like cut
21:35
customer satisfaction, you know, and so I love what you're saying
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about, you know, this kind of everybody has a role.
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You know, the, the child or the critic doesn't need to take a
21:43
backseat and, and quiet himself or herself.
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They have a role on the team. And so I, it was my job as a
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manager or CEO, if you will, like in this scenario that we're
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talking about where I just had to find a role all for that said
21:57
person, you know, So it's, it's to me, yeah.
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It's about finding the strengths in the critic or the child or,
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you know, other, other members of the team and, and applying
22:08
them so that we can at the end of the day, we want the bus
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moving forward, right? It that's, that's the goal, you
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know? Yeah, That reminds me of the
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positive psychology concept in which people are encouraged to
22:23
look into these strengths and to lean into these strengths more
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than to, you know, development of weaknesses.
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Because often times, especially in corporate culture, what they
22:34
tell us is that these are your development objectives.
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And you know, if you don't get better than Bill Ferry
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essentially. And so sometimes it's it's
22:45
counterproductive because the person would be spending their
22:48
time, a, being anxious about this all and B, trying to
22:52
improve the things that they are not going to be the best at
22:55
anyways. And they don't have to because
22:58
they have other strengths that if they lend in into their
23:02
strengths, that they would be really indispensable for
23:06
organization. So it's not to say again, there
23:09
is no like very extreme views on that.
23:12
It's not to to say that they should completely ignore the
23:15
development objectives. And let's say if you're really
23:18
jerk to people, you have to keep being a jerk.
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It's not about that. It's about still prioritizing
23:24
your strengths and making sure that you're basically living out
23:29
of your potential rather than just trying to, you know, cut
23:34
the loose ends. How, how does somebody know if
23:37
they're satisfied with their career or not?
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Like what kind of things can they start doing or start
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thinking about? Because this hits home for me,
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especially in the last year where I wasn't getting, you
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know, I'm not getting a fulfillment out of my career
23:50
path. And I've, you know, I've done
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some inner work on it. I've started to realize that
23:53
I've basically just been following my, my father's path
23:56
in, in, in the professional world, which is fine.
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It's treated me well, but ultimately I'm not fulfilled,
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right? So what?
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What is something that someone can do?
24:05
Mm, hmm. Well, so the question is what
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somebody can do, not how somebody can know, because it
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sounds like you already know. Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, either way, like some people don't even know that
24:17
they're. So maybe it's a two-part
24:19
process. Yeah, well, it all starts with
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this voice in inside you telling you, well, maybe you know, maybe
24:28
it's not, it's not it. Or is that it is that the path
24:34
is, is, is, is it where I was supposed to be?
24:37
Is it where my 5 or 10 year old self would be really excited
24:44
about me being at my current age?
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So it it starts usually with this thoughts in your head.
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And if you don't have them, great.
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I mean, we don't have to question everything.
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If you're happy, great. But if you started having these
25:02
thoughts, then I can tell you they're not going to go away.
25:07
So you can, a lot of people are afraid to, to give them space
25:13
because they think, Oh my God, if I start entertaining those
25:16
thoughts, I have to change so much.
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I worked so hard to achieve this all and now am I supposed to
25:22
start from scratch and you know, all these things.
25:25
But The thing is that it's not going to go away and it's not
25:29
something to like attack you or or or damage your life.
25:35
If this thoughts appear, it means that there is an
25:38
opportunity for you to live a better life, to live out of even
25:46
more empowered version of yourself if you are ready to
25:49
face it. And so people face it at
25:52
different times, but when you are ready to face it, then the
25:57
first step is to understand who you have become as a result of
26:01
your past experiences. I worked a lot with people who
26:05
are international, who change lots of countries, cultures,
26:10
companies, roles. And so those are very adaptive
26:15
people and they, they really learn how to, you know, adapt to
26:21
this changing environments. However, what often happens is
26:25
that they kind of lose the feeling of who they are in the
26:30
process. They, they no longer understand
26:33
what's theirs and what's not, what they like or what they
26:36
expected to be to to like. And so the first step that I do
26:41
normally when I work with people is to help them reconnect with
26:45
themselves. So answer the questions, you
26:47
know, what's really important to me?
26:49
How do I understand that that's important to me?
26:53
What's the difference between something that I think that's
26:56
important and I and I feel that it's actually important.
27:00
What what is what is my purpose? Why am I waking up in the
27:05
morning? So things like that.
27:07
So that's the first step. And then once you realize, OK,
27:10
this is who I am. And that's like you.
27:15
It doesn't, it doesn't matter whether it's enough or not
27:20
enough. What's important is that that's
27:21
how it is, right? Once you have this baseline,
27:24
then you can think, OK, what? Who do I want to become?
27:29
So you take a timeline and you start basically you unleash your
27:36
inner dreamer or inner child and you start thinking, OK, who am
27:40
I? Who do I want to be?
27:42
You know, and some people actually think that in order to
27:45
be someone, you first need to have something or, or you know,
27:51
or do something in order to be some, let's say if I want to be
27:54
rich, I need to have, I don't know, properties or yucked.
27:59
But it's actually the other way around.
28:01
If you want to have properties or yucked, you have to be rich
28:07
in your mind first, even before it's sort of materialized
28:11
because it's it's, it's a part of the mindset.
28:14
So this is the work that brings you to think, OK, if I want to
28:19
become this different version of myself, how does this different
28:23
version of myself think about things?
28:28
And it must be different because if you keep doing what you've
28:31
always been doing, you would be getting the same results that
28:34
you've always been getting. And so that's is the second part
28:38
of the work. OK, who do I want to become?
28:41
And then the third part of the work is mindset.
28:43
It's empowering from point A to point B.
28:47
How do I get there? What inner challenges do I need
28:51
to overcome? How do I work with my inner
28:54
critic or inner perfectionist? Or if I tend to procrastinate,
28:58
what's driving it and and etcetera, etcetera.
29:01
And those things are different for different people.
29:03
So it's, it's, it's a process. That's why it's, it's always
29:07
easier to do it with an external person like a coach, because it
29:13
helps you expand your mind, because it helps you get out of,
29:15
of your usual thinking patterns. It, it helps you to see what's
29:20
really going on. It acts like a mural as opposed
29:24
to when you're just thinking about it yourself.
29:26
And you, you, you just, you have lots of blinds.
29:29
We all do. I also have coaches because, you
29:33
know, I realize that I have blind spots as as we all do.
29:36
And so it's important to expand your thinking in order to really
29:40
move forward. Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more.
29:43
It's this idea of like altering your perception, you know,
29:46
getting another perspective on your situation because I'm one
29:50
perspective. The minute I start incorporating
29:53
somebody else into the process, that's now 2 perspectives, you
29:57
know, and the more people I kind of bounce things off of, that's
29:59
more perspectives. And then I can kind of bring all
30:01
those ideas of responses together and make an informed
30:05
decision that way, you know what the, what the.
30:08
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
30:10
I just wanted to say that having perspectives, of course, is
30:14
very, very beneficial, But specifically when you work with
30:18
a coach, a coach is not supposed to tell you what to do.
30:22
A coach is supposed to ask you the questions that you wouldn't
30:26
ask yourself otherwise. So that's certain answers come
30:30
out for you that you haven't thought about before, because
30:33
essentially the role of a coach is to empower you to solve your
30:38
own problems, not to solve the problems for you.
30:41
Yeah, yeah, I, I that's a great point.
30:44
And you know, that that's like I was going to ask the question,
30:47
but that you pretty much nailed it.
30:49
It's like, what does a good coach look like?
30:51
You know, and a good coach to me has to wear multiple hats.
30:53
They have to be a cheerleader. They have to be, you know, hard
30:56
sometimes and tell you the the hard truth.
30:59
But at the end of the day, ultimately it's not them.
31:02
You don't go here, take left, make a a footstep here.
31:06
It's it's not that because you and I both know someone, you
31:10
know, especially somebody that deals with control issues and
31:13
addiction. We don't respond well to tell,
31:16
you know, to this kind of dictator, dictator behavior
31:21
where it's like, I don't take direction.
31:23
Well, you know, I take suggestions better and I take
31:26
questions a lot better. Well, why are you thinking this
31:28
way? Why don't you?
31:29
I want to go to this this party later.
31:31
And you know, my partner does a great job of that.
31:33
I always say this, but you know, she does a great job of kind of
31:36
helping me make an informed decision rather than telling me
31:39
what to do. And I think that that challenges
31:41
me in a way that helps me to grow, you know?
31:43
Yeah. And that's back to the point of
31:46
having the CEO in your in your head.
31:48
If there is someone who is always playing the CEO and
31:51
decides what to do, then you will never grow your own CEO in
31:57
your head, right? Yeah.
32:00
What does recovery look like to you today, Natalia?
32:06
Recovery I always thought that when I will stop having the
32:14
bingeing episodes, I would be like in bliss all the time.
32:20
Same. Yeah, yeah.
32:22
And to be honest, I mean, if, if I think about how, how, how bad
32:28
it all was, I am in bliss, you know, But The thing is that it's
32:33
normal life. It's a daily work on your
32:38
thoughts. So it's, it's a right food
32:45
intake for me. It I still have thoughts when I
32:50
approach the point in my meal when I feel like I'm full, but I
32:55
still have appetite or it's tasty.
32:57
And you know, it's like, it's almost like a critical, like
33:01
little signalization starts coming off like, look, you are
33:06
at the, you know, critical point of, of, of being full.
33:10
So if before, when I was more in a child mode, I was like,
33:14
whatever, I don't want rules. I do, it's my life.
33:18
I do whatever I want. So I'll just keep eating
33:20
whatever happens. Now I understand that this voice
33:24
is telling me to that I'm approaching my my limits.
33:29
If I keep doing that, I am likely to be unhappy with
33:33
myself. Do I want that?
33:36
Not really. And so I stop.
33:38
And as you've done it multiple times, it, it might feel
33:45
uncomfortable for five seconds, but then it's, it's bearable.
33:50
So you realize that you can handle that.
33:54
You realize that this minor discomfort you're key to handle
33:59
for the sake of not having a bigger discomfort if you are
34:03
full. And then also very, very
34:07
important point that I realized, even though, you know, I've been
34:11
a woman for over certain years of my life, I, I actually just
34:16
recently discovered how different my natural body needs
34:23
depending on the stage of the cycle.
34:25
So, you know, in the second stage of the cycle, for
34:30
instance, my appetite increases and I want to have more like
34:35
fatty foods, more like something, something oily and,
34:39
and stuff like that and and my appetite increases.
34:42
What I didn't know is that that's normal and that's
34:46
metabolic rate also increases. And so when I had my episodes, I
34:51
used to think, Oh my God, I, I'm, you know, I, I always want
34:55
to eat. And it was very difficult to
34:57
battle. And instead of giving my body
35:00
what it needs, as in, you know, healthy fats, I would be giving
35:04
it junk food because I would be punishing myself, you know.
35:08
And so in those periods, I was the most unstable back in the
35:12
years when I had episodes. I know that yes, I'm eating more
35:17
when I'm in the second stage of my cycle, but surprisingly in
35:21
the first stage of my cycle, my appetite drops and I am just
35:26
amazed at how body self regulates.
35:30
So I think it's just literally A managing your thoughts, B being
35:38
in the moment and not stepping into past remuneration of like,
35:47
oh, like, you know, I had this hitting disorder in the past,
35:50
You know, what would prevent me to have it in the future or not
35:53
stepping too much in the future is like, oh, maybe it's
35:56
uncomfortable now, but if I if I keep doing that, maybe it will
36:00
be even more comfortable. And then so you don't think
36:02
about the future, you focus on the moment.
36:04
And often you realise that discomfort is just a very
36:07
shortly. So being in the moment, managing
36:10
your thoughts and yeah, and and basically trying to be adult in
36:18
in every area of my life, which takes focus out of of the body
36:26
thing and food thing and trains you to to A don't expect
36:35
perfection, not expect perfection from yourself.
36:38
B Notice your strengths and enjoy what you can do and
36:44
basically be OK with the fact that you, you, you have, you
36:51
know, both sides of the coin. You have certain limitations and
36:57
you have certain strengths. And as long as you're OK with
37:00
that, then you don't have to punish yourself.
37:04
Because The thing is that everybody does.
37:06
It's a human nature, so I think it just boils down to accepting
37:11
the human nature and yourself and learning how to live with
37:15
that. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
37:18
There's so many, there's so many parallels between, you know,
37:20
substance use disorder and this food addiction that that is
37:26
pretty prevalent. And I think it's prevalent in a
37:28
lot of places. You know, body dysmorphia comes
37:30
into it. And I mentioned at the beginning
37:32
that I've struggled with body dysmorphia.
37:34
I still do to some degree, but I'm a lot better at it now.
37:37
I'm a lot better at managing those thoughts and asking myself
37:40
questions, you know, what is this about?
37:41
And I've ultimately found that, you know, there's this, there's
37:44
this hole inside of me that is not enough, like we said.
37:47
And, and I'm trying to fill it with whatever outside things,
37:50
you know, come into play. Are there like what are some of
37:54
the common themes that you see with with successful people in
37:59
in recovery? Well, they stop chasing
38:08
achievement and they start enjoying the process.
38:13
I love that. When you chase achievement all
38:17
the time, you just leave in your To Do List, you always unhappy
38:22
and you miss life essentially all the thoughts that you're not
38:27
enough, all those circles. You miss the moment because
38:31
you're there, you're not here. So once you start enjoying the
38:38
process, asking yourself how it feels right now in this very
38:42
moment, what am I doing if it doesn't feel well?
38:45
Like why am I doing that? Right.
38:48
Then you start notice that life is so much more than achievement
38:54
or feeling that void life already is.
38:58
You know what is and it's it's it's wonderful.
39:03
I mean, it's it, I'm getting a little bit as a Turk here, but
39:07
that's essentially, you know, kind of spiritual element to
39:11
that. Yeah, yeah, that maybe there's
39:14
another way to do things, you know, maybe my way is not the
39:17
only way. That's kind of the spiritual
39:18
side for me, you know? Yeah, It it's, it reminds me of
39:22
this kind of notion where once I have this, I'll be happy.
39:27
Once I have two, one car, my favorite car, I'll be happy.
39:31
Now I have the car, it's like, but once I have the boat, I'll
39:35
be happy. And it never ends, right?
39:37
It's this like, you know, it's kind of like this, this ladder
39:40
analogy that I heard one time where it's like there's a empty
39:43
bag on the top of the ladder. And every CEO climbs that
39:47
ladder, gets to the bag and finds out that it's empty.
39:50
There's nothing in the bag. And he, you know, the next guy,
39:53
the rookie CEO, the, the guy that's just coming up, he's
39:56
talking to the, the veteran, the guy that's been there before and
40:00
the guy, the veteran is telling him, hey, there's nothing in the
40:02
bag, man. Don't you know it's not worth
40:04
it. And like 10 out of 10 times that
40:07
young guy or girl needs to go and we'll do it anyways, despite
40:12
all the warnings. We'll need to go climb the
40:15
ladder and find out for him or herself that there's nothing in
40:18
the bag. You know there's this, there's
40:20
nothing on the other side, right?
40:21
Yeah, I love this analogy. I, I feel like when you have
40:27
this thoughts, when I do that, that will make me happy.
40:32
It's a, it's an intellectual thought, right?
40:34
It's not, it has nothing with the feeling you think that it
40:37
will make you happy, but how does it feel to be happy?
40:41
Like, can you actually imagine that you feel happy right now?
40:47
Can you imagine? Let's do an exercise.
40:55
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's changed a lot.
41:03
It's funny because my brain starts to automatically, and
41:06
this is, you know, this is because I'm working a recovery
41:09
program, but my brain starts to go for all the little things.
41:12
You know, I woke up this morning, I have coffee, I have a
41:15
bed to sleep in. I have a beautiful partner.
41:18
You know, I have family. I was out for dinner last night
41:21
with with one of my uncles who were we've become closer because
41:24
as a result of my relapse and, and, and addiction, you know,
41:28
he's he's supporting me more. And yeah, it's it's a beautiful
41:33
thing. You know, I'm not thinking about
41:34
all the stuff that I have or the computer or, or the the job or
41:39
anything like that. My mind immediately goes to, you
41:42
know, I think back to all the moments I've if I, if you're
41:44
asked, if you were to ask me, remember a moment you were last
41:47
happy. I think about places, you know,
41:51
I think about my, my the cottage that we have that is on the lake
41:55
and I think about the vacations that I've been on in Europe.
41:59
That's. So you see, you think a lot, you
42:02
try to recall images or events. But what if you try to focus on
42:09
the body sensations? Like if you felt very, very
42:18
happy right now for whatever reason, what would you feel in
42:22
your body? How would you know that you're
42:24
not, that you're happy? I wanna my first.
42:29
My first answer to that is excited.
42:33
This. And when I say excited, it's
42:34
hard for me to put into words. It's almost like an anxious.
42:38
Anxious like. Feeling.
42:39
Yeah, yeah. There's like this anxiety, Yeah.
42:43
I love that because The thing is that physiological response to
42:46
anxiety or excitement is the same.
42:49
Is this feeling of like for me, it's this feeling in the pit of
42:54
my stomach, which honestly, I, you know, when I reframe it as
42:58
excitement, it's bearable, but I, I don't like feeling it.
43:02
And that's, and that's the thing, because when you only
43:06
associate with happiness, this almost anxiety, then you almost
43:11
don't want to feel happy in the moment.
43:14
And you feel like, oh, when I have this or that or that, then
43:18
I will be happy. But you have to learn to feel
43:21
that happiness now, because if you don't learn how to feel it
43:26
through sensations now, you won't be able to feel it
43:30
regardless of the events that are going to happen in your
43:33
life. That's amazing.
43:36
I never I've never been told that or thought about that, you
43:38
know, but you you nailed it on the head.
43:41
Like I always, I always, I recall imagery when I have, you
43:45
know, when I have thoughts of triggers, you know, and I
43:49
haven't had one in, in a bit now, But when I have triggered
43:52
thoughts of, you know, I, I miss the way that it's always like a,
43:56
a picture in my head of that first hour of the party where I
44:01
was having fun. And not even an hour, I would
44:03
say like half an hour. It's like that first little tiny
44:06
window where I was enjoying the drugs and alcohol and then the
44:10
99% of the night was just hell. You know, I, it was absolute
44:14
hell. And but my brain will will grab
44:17
onto that one memory that quick, you know, enjoyment feeling.
44:22
And it's not a body sensation at all.
44:23
It's like this. I just picture the surrounding
44:26
area of of when I was happy. What what?
44:30
So what does happiness feel like to you?
44:31
You mentioned a pit in your stomach, but what what can you
44:34
describe that? No.
44:35
So yeah. So pit in my stomach is not
44:37
happiness, that's excitement. And I don't like to associate
44:40
with with happiness for that same reason because it is too
44:44
similar to anxiety. I guess my happiness is like I
44:54
have to you see, I have to do an exhale to feel it in my body.
44:58
That means that I'm not contracting my body anywhere,
45:03
like it's just relaxed everywhere, like all goes
45:06
freely. And I I'm fully focusing on my
45:12
sensations rather than any thoughts because thoughts often
45:17
give me anxiety. And so if I am able to switch
45:23
off the thoughts because in the end of the day, I'm thinking the
45:26
thoughts. So you know, I can do that.
45:29
And you can do it with practice in meditation or just sitting
45:32
with that. You realize that you know this
45:36
feeling. I don't know if, if, if anybody
45:39
here ever done ecstasy when you know, when you're on.
45:44
Yeah, that was my other joke. When you're on this wave of like
45:51
it, it's coming up, you know your thoughts just leave your
45:55
head and you feel this relaxation.
45:58
Your breast goes, you know, flows freely.
46:02
You smile You. You are not distracted by
46:06
anxious thoughts. You.
46:07
Feel. Worms, you're fully present
46:09
exactly. So that's the happiness, but you
46:11
don't need ecstasy to feel that. And so focusing like switching
46:20
back, like if you feel anxious or if you feel any think any
46:26
self deprecating, deprecating thoughts, that's the sign that
46:30
you're too much in your thoughts.
46:32
Your mind is writing you. So that's your sign to switch
46:36
into the body. And for me, what works is is
46:39
starting to breathe like slowly, like noticing any contraction
46:44
and and just releasing it. And that's puts me in the state
46:51
of relaxation. And like, you know, I used to be
46:56
afraid of public speaking and podcasting is public speaking
47:00
for me. But right now I don't have any
47:02
anxiety whatsoever because I just allow my breath to flow.
47:09
So being in the present moment and being in your body, that's,
47:12
that's the only way out. Yeah.
47:15
And that takes practice, right? It's, it's, it's not easy.
47:18
It's simple, but it's not easy. A lot like this recovery program
47:21
that I work, I was always taught and told that it's simple, not
47:25
easy, and we like to overcomplicate it.
47:26
And sometimes it's just meditating and sitting with your
47:29
thoughts. But I find that meditation gets
47:31
easier after I practice it more. And it doesn't have to be a 20
47:34
minute, you know, on a pillow every morning.
47:37
I was taught that, you know, it can start with three breaths in
47:39
the morning. But to your point, I'm focusing
47:41
on my breaths, not what I have to do today.
47:44
Exactly, exactly. And, and at least that was the
47:49
case with me when I was when I was trying to focus on my
47:51
breasts, I was like, OK, I'm focusing on my breasts now.
47:53
How long do I need to do? It's annoying.
47:56
Like I could have done so many other things with that.
47:59
So that's, that's your mind speaking.
48:01
Try to find something that feels nice in the body.
48:04
Like for me actually one of the things that helps me was was
48:09
stretching. You know, like when you stretch,
48:11
you naturally want to breathe deeply because you just want to
48:14
release. Also, what helps me personally
48:18
is talking to yourself during that stretching moments.
48:22
It's like it's safe, you know, like this safety feeling because
48:26
essentially if we are not flexible, that means that our
48:30
body is too contracted. And so in order to to make it
48:35
more flexible, you need to release this contraction.
48:37
You need to breeze into the stretch.
48:39
You need to tell yourself that it's safe to stretch.
48:43
And this phrase I am safe does wonders in stretching and
48:48
beyond. It's funny you bring that up
48:51
because my wife stretches every morning and she loves it and
48:54
she's been trying to get me to do it for, for a while now and I
48:57
just haven't gotten into it. So maybe I'll revisit that
49:00
today. I appreciate that.
49:02
OK, Natalia, if you had, you know, there's a woman or a man
49:07
or person out there that's struggling with the, the
49:10
relationship with food or they're, they have some kind of
49:13
eating disorder or they're using food to to ultimately feel some
49:17
sort of way. What do you say to that person
49:19
right now? I would say that you're not
49:25
alone and this is your body's way to show you that a change is
49:33
needed for you to step in into a more empowered version of
49:38
yourself. And that's just your path.
49:42
Everybody has something to overcome some sort of crisis in
49:47
order to step up. And that's your opportunity.
49:51
And it's time, you know? And if you're ready, then you
50:01
can choose to do something about it.
50:09
And if it's not now, it's OK. But you can always make this
50:15
choice. And this present moment is
50:20
basically you know all you have. And if you don't make it now,
50:24
again, that's fine, you can always make it later.
50:29
But if you make it, then be ready to experience a different
50:35
part of life. And if you need support, you
50:40
can. You can find the support that
50:42
works for you. If you feel like you would like
50:47
to speak to me, I'm happy to, but I'm really excited for what
50:54
life is going to have for you, to be honest.
51:01
That's beautiful. One thing that recovery has
51:03
given me, you know, plain and simple, everyday, full stop, is
51:07
freedom, right? This freedom that I have, I can
51:10
go anywhere I want. I can do anything I want if I'm
51:12
willing to be the consequences I'm not obsessed with.
51:16
The only answer is to use or drink today.
51:19
And that in and of itself is a beautiful thing, you know?
51:22
Yeah. Yeah.
51:23
Where can people find you, Natalia?
51:26
People can find me on LinkedIn, it's Natalia for Michenko and
51:31
Instagram it's Nati under score for Michenko, or my e-mail,
51:37
which is Natalia at Natalia for michenko.com.
51:42
Beautiful and I'll I'll link that all on the show notes.
51:45
Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you Natalia.
51:47
That was a great conversation. I had a a great time.
51:50
I learned a lot today. I like I I fully I'm, I'm, you
51:55
know, amazed with what I keep learning while I'm doing this.
51:57
So I appreciate you. I appreciate the work that you
51:59
do, you and your team, and it was a great conversation.
52:02
Until next time, thank you so much.
52:04
Thank you so much, Anthony, and thank you for bringing awareness
52:08
about such a sensitive topic. I really, really appreciate what
52:12
you're doing. For listening, please help us
52:14
grow the channel and like, share and subscribe for more content.
52:18
The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for
52:21
informational and motivational purposes only.
52:23
This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice,
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addiction treatment, or therapy. If you or someone you know is
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struggling with addiction, please consult A licensed
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physician, addiction specialist, or mental health professional.
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You are no longer alone.