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Managing Your Divorce, Prenups, And New Relationships: Advice From Family Attorney Nancy Perpall · The D Shift

• 0:05
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Welcome to the D shift podcast, where we provide inspiration, motivation and education to help you transition from the challenges of divorce to discover the freedom and ability to live life on your own terms. Are you ready? Let's get the shift started. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the D Shift podcast. And as always, I am so grateful for your time and for you tuning in and listening. Today we have a guest that has an amazing background and history in being able to support people going through divorce. So I'd like like to introduce Nancy Perpoall. And she is, she's a family and divorce attorney now or family family attorney now, but she started out as a critical care nurse. So that's a really interesting combination of fields, I'm guessing. So Nancy, welcome. Thank you for being here.
• 1:00
  Nancy Perpoall: Well, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:03
  Mardi Winder-Adams: So tell us a little bit about your background, because like I've kind of hinted at, it's pretty, it's pretty unique, I'm not guessing you have a lot of people who become attorneys who have had a previous, you know, complicated, complex and high level training career. So tell me a little bit about how that happened.
• 1:20
  Nancy Perpoall: Well, when I graduated from high school in 1965, there were two choices, she became a teacher or a nurse, if you were a girl, I wanted to go to medical school, but my father said, I have boys to educate, you're going to get married, you're never going to have to work after that whoever you marry, whoever asked me for your hand and marriage, because that's what happened in those days. And he's gonna have to be able to support you. So that, you know, fathers in those days, their authority was never questioned. I mean, there's so there was no question he said, you can become a nurse even though I don't like the fact that you're going to be touching, then you can become a nurse. So I went to nursing school, I wrote a textbook with some people from the University of Pennsylvania called advanced concepts and clinical nursing. And that was in 1974. And it was adopted by many nursing schools as mandatory first year, many hospitals included the protocols we recommended for different units, every chapter was a different unit in the hospital. But the hospital that I was working at any emergency room would not even entertain. Some of the protocols that I saw were really desperately needed for better patient outcome in the emergency room and intensive care, which were really my two areas of expertise, because I was a nurse. And in 1974, you may remember women could just were able to have credit cards, we were just able to get it back bank loan without a male signature. And in 1974, only doctors air quotes. Yeah. Recommended protocols, not nurses. So I went to someone who was a recent hire, and she happened to have been a nurse, although she never practiced. I mean, I didn't. She wasn't an approachable kind of girl. You know what I mean? Yes, I do. And I did ask her. I said, How do I get them to listen to me? And she said, become a lawyer. And I said, Okay, I'll become a lawyer. So I went to law school. And I graduated, I was hired by a firm to do defense malpractice, where I thought, eventually I'd go back into administration. But what better area to learn the problems that patients were having with doctors tend to do defense malpractice? Sure. So I was excited to have that job was get very good firm. But my first day on the job, I was the only woman in the law firm. My first day on the job, instead of having malpractice files on my desk, there were 75 Divorce files. So I went to the managing partner. And I said, you know, with all due respect, I was hired to do defense malpractice. I am no way interested in doing divorce work. So he leaned cross his large mahogany desk, put his finger an inch from my nose and said, You're not going to make it here with that attitude. You do what we tell you to do. And besides divorce work is for women. So I work the divorce files. And I also did defense malpractice. And when they lost the contract represent the physicians because the insurance company picks the firm, not the doctor, right. I took my 75 Well, at that point, it was 125 files, and I opened my own practice. So I had my own practice for about 29 years. So I practice divorce. And I was going through a divorce at that time, I had to, you know, support my children. And not that my ex husband was a loser. He paid his child support and all that but if there's never enough after you get divorced, yeah, I'm sorry. There's just you're not going to live the same way you did before the divorce. So I've worked very hard and became very successful. I was chair for the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania's Domestic Relations Rules Committee for six years. And that's by unanimous approval by all the justices. And it's a very important position. I learned a tremendous amount traveling around all 67 counties in Pennsylvania, to learn what people what were people saying about the divorce procedure, right? What were people's complaints about going through a divorce, and nine times out of 10? It was with the scheduling, they had to take a day off for custody, they had to take a day off for support, they had to take a week off. Well, now they don't even try the cases. But when I was first practicing, or in the early 80s, they were trying cases, right? The statute had just come out. And there was very little judicial precedent for how to handle these cases. In fact, pensions still weren't considered marital property. Right? Right. Yeah, I took that one up and down the Superior Court a couple of times. But in any event, that's a long drawn out story. But it put me in a position to to understand, frankly, how to manage in a man's world, right. And for women, and I know you deal with a lot of women entrepreneurs. There's a real cognitive dissonance for women who are trying to move up the corporate ladder, in particular, with what their their traditional male expectations are of their role. Right? Right. Being a good woman is keeping your mouth shut. Being a bright woman is we wish she'd keep her mouth shut.
• 6:44
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Exactly, exactly. And I said this on another podcast, I had been sitting in, like a corporate break room. And nobody really knew who I was there waiting for whatever. And I've heard people like other people, even within make comments about a female in a CEO, CFO, CEO, or whatever may be saying things like, well, how can she run a company? She can't even run her household? Like she can hold her man, how she going to hold a job? You don't hear that same even today? You don't hear those same comments made when you hear guys, you know, they're all like, oh, look, he's trading in an old model for a new model. Like that's the kind of thing that you hear. And I really appreciate, Nancy, that you put that timeline in perspective that yeah, like in 90. In our lifetime, women could not open a bank account without a man signature, you know, more their fathers think it was. It was bizarre.
• 7:45
  Nancy Perpoall: You could rent an apartment. Yeah. Yeah. You can buy a car, you can
• 7:51
  Mardi Winder-Adams: come along. What's that saying? You've come a long way, baby. What was Virginia Slims? Whatever was cigarette? I used to say that,
• 7:57
  Nancy Perpoall: yeah, you've come a long way. You can kill yourself the same way men can now. Yeah, and
• 8:01
  Mardi Winder-Adams: you can work yourself. Yeah, just keep going. So. So I think that was really good. I think that really put it in perspective. And a lot of people don't understand. And I wanted to, so we didn't have this on the agenda. So this just popped into my mind. So I'd like to ask your opinion on this when you are because you said you got a lot of information from people about what the challenges are and going through divorce. What I hear a lot of is financial abuse during the divorce, then one, you know whether and it doesn't necessarily matter whether it's the man or the woman, traditionally, it's the man who's got the higher income, but obviously, that's not that's not across the board, where they literally prolong the legal process, you know, multiple requests for information, multiple, you know, hearings to see status hearings, all this kind of stuff that cost the other partner so much money that eventually they just go whatever, just do whatever you want, because I can't keep affording this. What are your thoughts on stuff like that still going on in the legal system?
• 9:08
  Nancy Perpoall: Well, we have we did I address that in Pennsylvania? To a certain extent, I mean, and I think, you know, substantially, so I also think that many states now you're in Texas, so God knows Texas is sort of like a different country. But a lot of it has been dealt with in the mediation process. Sure, where you're required to go to mediation so many days after your discovery has been exchanged. But you're absolutely right. People play games with the discovery. They don't have they don't complete discovery, you've got to do another request that may delay the mediation, right. But if the mediator thinks that there are games being played, while the mediator cannot discuss anything about settlement with the judge, they are able to interact Hey, that there should be no further continuances based upon my experience in this case, they don't have to put why or who started it right, who they find at fault. But there are different ways that many states are addressing this issue. Right. And financial abuse is a huge issue and has been, it still is a huge issue. Yeah, for many, many women who, even though they can get their own credit cards, they're maxed out.
• 10:28
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Yeah. And I have heard that there's an I don't know what states they are. And I believe it's nine states now that have set up things that automatically the joint property becomes like you can't you both parties have access to that to fund their legal. So the longer they drag it out, the lower the pot gets for both people. So that that inequity is somewhat addressed in that. So no, you're absolutely
• 10:51
  Nancy Perpoall: right. I think that so much has been disclosed, not only through people's dissatisfaction with the system, but education. You know, like, divorce coaches, like your your area, I mean, you're educating your people as they're going through your divorce. And there are so many more life coaches, divorce coaches, there's so many webinars about divorces about what to do, how to handle different things, that I just, you know, education is just really key. Yeah, when you're going through a divorce.
• 11:31
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Absolutely. And I know that one of the things that you focus on in your area of expertise that you talk about, is how to not let that divorce experience, impact the rest of your life and create somebody who is distressful, bitter, hostile towards the potential for future relationships. So, can you talk a little bit about that, Nancy, if you wouldn't mind?
• 11:56
  Nancy Perpoall: Absolutely. I always counseled my clients, based upon my own personal experience, because I've been divorced, actually, twice. And then my third marriage, finally I got it, right. If that was after, you know, I made a concentrated effort to figure out what I was doing wrong, right, and not necessarily focusing on what they were doing wrong. We know we can never change anyone, we can maybe influence them, maybe we can educate them, but you never going to change who you married. So I mean, that was one of my biggest problems. And I think for and I'm just speaking for most women, since I've represented mostly women, my whole life, and I've been a woman my whole life. I think women have a tendency, you know, prime evilly, you know, survive, Billy to think if you work hard enough, you can solve almost anything, right? You know, you put the problem with me, and I'll figure out how to get it done. And traditionally, that's what we had to do when the men were out hunting, the saber tooth clock, you know, tiger, and we're at, though, so it's the fire with the babies, you know, trying to deal with what their issues were. But I think what I try to tell my clients is look at divorce as a diversion, not as the end of a relationship, but the beginning of a new relationship with yourself. Right? With yourself. Yeah. And if even if you're not ready, now, you don't know how you're going to do it, as one of your guests recently on one of your podcasts said, if you make that decision, to get insight into yourself, and you make a decision that this is not going to define who you are, this is not going to be the end of your story, that you had a failed marriage. And you decide that you're going to move on, you stop being better, and you do become better, right, and you become better in the next relationship. Because most most women do remarry. But the divorce rate for first marriages before COVID was going down after COVID It's back up. It's 50 or 52%. Now, second, marriages are 60% Third marriages are 73% sent.
• 14:12
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Absolutely. I told my people that I quote those statistics and I said, you know, you have to make a pivot right now. And that's why I I, I like you, you call it a diversion. I call divorce a transition. It's a pivot point in your life, you can keep going on the same trajectory, you just marry the same guy, he'll look a little different, but he's the same dude. And the next version, the next version, or you can make a radical change and really find the person that you want to be and that is not a fixer upper. There's no house flipping involved in here. You can't take a bad deal and make it a good deal. I love I love that message that you're saying too, because that's that's my experience that women tend to feel that sense of, oh, this you know, this individual whether it's a whether you're in a same gender, religion To ship or at your, you know, in a in a heterosexual relationship, it doesn't matter if you're looking for a fixer upper, you're not going to get the results that you want. In most cases, there's always that, you know, one outlier, but so how do you what's one thing that you think that women should do? If they go through a divorce and let's face it, most divorces have some bitterness, some sin, anger, loss, grief. What's one Surrett?
• 15:28
  Nancy Perpoall: Those are normal. Yeah, emotions while you're going through the divorce. But as the divorce ends, and you're still that way, that's when I have the come to Jesus meeting with them. Right? That's, that's the time that I say, because sometimes being a little angry is not a bad thing, when you're going through a settlement, you know, to tap them down and get them real relaxed, not necessarily the best result for them. But once the divorce has been concluded, or is winding down, you've got a settlement or you've gone to trial, you're waiting for the decision. Maybe you'll appeal a decision already know that maybe the judge doesn't like you, it depends. But generally speaking, it's time to really look at yourself and gain insight. Everybody says, you know, do a mind shift? Or, you know, I think it's more insight. I mean, because you can't really shift anything in your mind unless you have insight into what is in your mind. Right. And as one of your guests, I think Dr. Moore, Norman said, we don't really see what's inside of a computer. We don't see all the programs, they're just automatically running. And it's very similar what our experiences have been in the past. Right? And so if you let if you can identify what that experience is, is that's making you so better. And you can do with that experience, then you do become better. You know, I'm much better for my last divorce. I mean, as I said, I made a concentrated effort to go to therapy for a year and a half. I was very busy, but I took an hour. Well, it's more than that, because of the travel time. But sure, you know, I just made it a priority. I said, if I had cancer, I'd go wherever I had got the best chemo. Right? So I wanted to go to the best psychologist and he was not local. But in any event, you have to decide, is this what you will? How you want to define yourself? Right? Or do you want to bring a better you to the next relationship? But I think the biggest thing, in terms of moving forward in a divorce is understanding that you have to ask all the hard questions before you get married. And how many of us really do understand who we're marrying? Yeah. And that's why I wrote the novel that I just published last August, around which all things bend, which of course is love, love is the thing around which all things bend. And there always comes a time when you decide how far you're going to bend until you break. Right? This book is about deciding whether this person is the right person for you. And even if it's four days before the wedding, deciding that you should, it's better not to go through it than to go through it. Because the invitations are sent. She's got her dress, the venue has been paid. Get out of it, because you need to understand who you are marrying. And you know, I've got a blog, you know, on my website, Nancy propel.com, that talks about this the questions that you should ask. And the primary question you should ask is about sex, and about money. And I was on a podcast where the gentleman didn't want me to mention the word sex. So I talked about it.
• 18:57
  Mardi Winder-Adams: It's okay. We're cool.
• 19:00
  Nancy Perpoall: Okay, well, first of all talk about money. Everybody has a relationship with money, they come to the relationship that they're in, especially an intimate relationship, where you're going to be living together and sharing expenses. You have to talk about are you a spendthrift? Are you this? Are you that do you think we need an emergency fund? Right and spend instead of spending $100 on a pair of jeans? Do you think we should bank that? I mean, these are the questions you really need to start to ask. Yeah, and one of the big infidelity snat when you as a divorce attorney, counselor, coach may know this is financial infidelity. Sure. Marriage really? Yep. Changing changing the beneficiary on a retirement account on a leaving it to the mistress on the not bank account, but the insurance policy sure taking out a home equity loan. I mean, there's so many ways These people have found out about financial insecure infidelity. And a lot of it was during COVID Sure, when the business when they were sending stuff to the business, thinking that the spouse wasn't going to see it. But the business is we're sending everything home. Right, right. I was one of the one of the employees to have all the mail that was coming to them, right. It was going to the business, the businesses were packing it up and sending it home. And she was opening it up and going, what is going on?
• 20:30
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Yeah, yeah. And I love I really appreciate you saying that. The other thing I'm seeing a lot of is, with the financial stuff is people opening up crypto accounts, crypto wallets, which nobody if you don't know it's there, you're not going to find it. And then siphoning off. Everything is going into this crypto account that basically nobody has the key to and nobody's gonna get in. Nobody even knows it exists. And they're just, like, literally bleeding, the home account dry. And it's all and they start doing this months or years before they know. They know they're gonna leave. So they're setting up this other. It's untraceable. So yeah, so So let's talk about the sex thing. What what do you see as the biggest issues around? What's the question that you should have about sex before you get married?
• 21:16
  Nancy Perpoall: Okay, there is the three F's. What is your feeling about sex? Meaning? Do you think sex is just automatic? Would you think that we should just be able to do it whenever? Or do you find that you're going to need romance? Do you need quiet? I mean, if the kids are up, you know, are we gonna close the door? Are we waiting until they're asleep? Are we going to rent a room? What are we going to do? I mean, because things are going to get hectic, we want children, we know that children are a big disrupter in a setting the sex life of couples. Sure. It's a blog on that one, too. That's a good I get a lot of response on that one. I bet. Yeah. And the next one is frequency. You know, you know, what is your sex appetite? Right? After a woman has a baby, hormonally, chemically, her interest in sex declines for a period of time. Sometimes, it never recovers. And so you really need to have those questions. What is your what do you need, if she knows that he's going to need it? After she's had a baby, and you need to discuss these things, you know, frequency before you have a child is very different than frequency after you have a child. And then you get another one, and then possibly another one that neither one of them were counting on. But you really need to discuss what the frequency is, you know, what are you what's your need? If her need is once a month, and his need is once a week? You know, this is not going to work? There's a problem? Yeah, absolutely. And these are discussions you should have before you even get engaged. Yeah, you know, I mean, once the relationship starts to get serious, the conversation should be. I feel like we're getting a little serious. And I think it's time for some serious questions. And forgive me, I forgot the name of the two psychologists who did the 36 questions that you're supposed to ask each other sitting across from each other in each other's eyes. Right. It was in the New York Times years ago, it's been marriage ology of book. And I it's also in the book that I just wrote the novel, it refers to it, it's not all 36 questions, but you see where your compatibilities are, and your differences are? Sure. And it's a very ingenious way to sit, you know, by the end of it, you think, you know, I don't think this is the right person for me,
• 23:42
  Mardi Winder-Adams: or, yeah, there's, it's, it's just not aligned, as we're not aligned,
• 23:46
  Nancy Perpoall: which I think is the best word. And the third ones, it's the third F is fantasies, you've got to discuss what your fantasies are. Don't wait until you're six months into the marriage. And he's saying, you know, I'm really bored with our sex life. You know, I've always had this fantasy of, yeah, that's not when you want to hear it. Right. You know, if he wants to do it with donkeys in the living room, you better find out before you get married. I mean, if he thinks that threesomes are really what's going to turn him on, at some point when he gets bored with just you? That's a no starter for many, many women. Yeah.
• 24:27
  Mardi Winder-Adams: And at least having the conversations upfront, you know, without passing any judgment on anybody. If that's your thing, too, then, then it's a compatible thing. If it's not your thing, then what I think what happens is you get into marriage, there's pressure, so you may do it, and then you resent everything and everybody and you don't get over that. Even if there's never even if you never agree to it again. That's still a resentment piece. We are just about out of time. Nancy, you are this is so fascinating. I do want to ask you one quick question though. Because I have a strong opinion on this. So I'm gonna put you on the spot and ask you the same question. What do you think about prenups or even though
• 25:07
  Nancy Perpoall: I'm a big proponent of a prenup, if, you know, even if they balk at the end, you've disclosed all of the assets, you've had a sense of what their negotiating style is going to be during the marriage, because I assure you the negotiating style during the preparation of the prenup, is emblematic of what they're going to be how they're going to negotiate with you after the marriage. I think pre I think preparing prenups even as I said, if you don't sign them, you've gone through, you know, you have the information, right, know what you had at the beginning of the marriage. And let's face it, 50% of the marriages, and now it's over 50% Thank you, COVID are going to end in divorce the average American marriage, you probably know, this is seven years, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then they're on to number two. And the average length to that is what five years? You know, and that gets shorter and shorter. So I mean,
• 26:08
  Mardi Winder-Adams: so yeah, so So I am very strong. I also encourage all of my clients, you know, that's kind of my I don't do a lot of AP post divorce work with a lot of my clients, some I do, but not a lot. But my, my parting words are always like, please, please, please get a prenup next time. That not only do you have peace of mind, but the legal fees when you are if you do go through the divorce, the legal fees are going to be dramatically less because there's nothing to find about. I mean, there's going to be some stuff, especially if there's children of the relationship because those can't be included in a prenup. But, um, you know, you, you certainly do have a foundation for what's going to happen, how reasonable the person is how they deal with these kinds of challenges. So, Nancy, this has been fantastic, I love this, we probably need to talk again, I need to get you back to talk about so
• 26:54
  Nancy Perpoall: that would be wonderful. I very I thoroughly enjoyed this our time together.
• 26:59
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Yeah, and this has been so you've given so many practical strategies, which I know the listeners really appreciate. So tell us a little bit about or what what do you think let me ask you one more question. What do you think is the most important thing that people should remember when they, you know, go on about their day for the for the rest of the day, from this podcast? What do you want them to remember?
• 27:21
  Nancy Perpoall: I think it's consistent with the name of the podcast D shift, I think a divorce. Once you have been through a divorce, you have to shift from being better, to being better. And you do that by gaining insight in what you did during the course of the marriage that you don't want to do again. And I think even in relationships with colleagues, as you said, you know, when you're sitting in the break room, I mean, you know, if they're gonna talk about that person, behind their back, you're gonna talk about whoever it is they're talking about behind their back, right? And if you know, what is it that you like about yourself, what do you don't like about yourself and work on it? And that's what I think people should think about.
• 28:08
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Wonderful. Now, you said you have a book and I know, people are probably going to want to get hold of that book. So can you give us the title again? And then if people want to work with you, what's the best way for them to reach out to you?
• 28:21
  Nancy Perpoall: Okay, the name of the book is around which all things band, it's on Amazon. It's getting very good reviews, and it's also available on Barnes and Noble or wherever books are sold. You can order it, they can get to me at my email, which is n a p at Nancy and N a n c y Perpall p e r p a l l.com. My website is Nancyperpall.com. Instagram, Nancy Perpall, you know, author, Facebook, near to propel author, but I am available on email, n a p at NancyPerpall.com.
• 29:04
  Mardi Winder-Adams: Great, and we'll put all the links and all the information to get ahold of Nancy on all the social media sites. We'll put that in the show notes. So thank you so much, Nancy, this has been fantastic.
• 29:14
  Nancy Perpoall: I've really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
• 29:16
  Mardi Winder-Adams: And I want to thank and I want to thank all of you for listening in to the D Schiff podcast and encourage you to tune in next week for our next recording. Thanks for listening and supporting the gay Schiff podcast. If you would like to attend live trainings by our amazing guests, and have the chance to ask questions and get answers from our experts. Join the D Shift crew. For more details and to sign up, head on over to www dot divorce coach for women and click on the podcast page.