Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Full Episode - Voters Hate The Trump Economy… And It’s Only Getting Worse + A Republican Governor Says What He Really Thinks

Transcript

Full Episode - Voters Hate The Trump Economy… And It’s Only Getting Worse + A Republican Governor Says What He Really Thinks · The Chuck ToddCast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: you by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about Medicare
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere. And you're
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: skeptical of that, as you should be. I get it.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: over exactly this. Companies that branded themselves as unbiased while
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: as some sort of broker. So if your default is
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: reason I want to tell you about Chapter. They're independent
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Medicare advisors whose entire model is that their advisors are
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: not paid to push any one plan. They're just trying
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: to help. Yes, there's compensation that goes with it. but
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: it's across the board is what they're trying to do.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, they're advocating for you.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: who actually goes through your doctors, your prescriptions, your needs,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and then compares them to every single plan available to
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: find the best one that will work for you and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: hopefully save you a couple dollars too. And here's the
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: part that sets chapter apart. They don't disappear once you've
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: been in They will keep advocating for you. They're kind
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: of like almost like a concierge service. You're just there.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I need help. You're like customer service. You know, the plan,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: you know, help me navigate this again. So you ever
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: get hit with a wrongful medical bill, they'll help you
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: fight it. They want to stay an advocate for you
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: even after you've done this. So look, I get it.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I think there's all sorts of space. You see a
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: lot of people are throwing themselves in this healthcare space.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: What I like about these chapter folks, I've spent time
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: with them. This is a very transparent organization. It is
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Medicare and all of its affiliated stuff can be very confusing.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: The whole point of this is to make this easier
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: and less confusing. OK, so look, take the skepticism you
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: already have in all of this, point it at your
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: own plan for 20 minutes. It's free. There's no pressure.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: And then call chapter today at 980-734-4200. All right, welcome
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: to the Monday edition of the Chuck Toddcast, the official
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: last week of summer. I know some of you are going, man,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: is summer ever going to end? We're going to have
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Labor Day and the latest possible day. This Monday being
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: August 31st means Labor Day is not for another week.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: So for the, I'm guessing most of you have turned
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: the page from summer to, shall we say the new
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: school year, not quite fall, but you know, uh, the
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: minute summer's over, you know, we're supposed to say fall
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: has begun, but there is some of you who get
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: this one last week, including all my friends who work
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: on Congress and Capitol Hill. So it is, it is the, uh,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: It is it is the one more week until we
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: get to Labor Day and the official end of summer. Look,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: for today's edition, I got a bit of a notebook
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: style open for you today. It will roll into a
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: terrific guest. I have the outgoing governor of Ohio, Republican
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Mike DeWine. We have a very wide ranging conversation, but
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: it begins with I wanted to book him because he
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: he's changed his mind on the death penalty. And he
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: certainly has been very outspoken against this administration on how
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: they've gone about some of their immigration deportation decisions, including
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: what they've done to the Haitian community. And he's been
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: quite vocal about that, too. So we spend a lot
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: of time on that. Talk a little Ohio politics, which
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: is fascinating. I'm not going to give away what he
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: has to say. But those of you that have paid
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: attention to my obsession with the Ohio governor's race, I
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: think one of the, basically, it's the closest governor's race
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: nobody's talking about, right? I feel like nationally, the Iowa
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: governor's race gets a lot more attention than Ohio does.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: But Ohio is quite fascinating. And Mike DeWine basically has
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: two candidates he likes. And you're going to have to
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: just listen all the way to the end to remember
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: why that's the case. So, look, I'm going to get
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: into the economy because I think now, we could say
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: with an enormous amount of confidence, we know what the
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: biggest issue of this election is, pure and simple. And
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: it's the same exact issue that decided the last election, prices.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: The price of everything, but it is prices. It is,
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: there is no beating around the bush. We're 65 days
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: from election day. We know what the issue is. There's
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: no changing it. This is an election about prices. And
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: depending on the size, the explanation for Democratic success is
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: going to be this issue. And, you know, it's interesting.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: After looking at some of the economic news over the weekend,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: I also fear this economy may be about to be
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: getting worse before it gets better. I'm going to explain
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: some of that as well. And I've got some pretty
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: alarming reporting about the state of the American military six
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: months into the Iran war. And I also want to
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: spend a few minutes on why we need to take
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: the possibility of Vladimir Putin testing NATO more seriously than
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: perhaps we have. And then later, I want to get
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: into this deal with the Trump administration and what they have,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: this deal they've apparently struck over Venezuelan oil, which reads
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: less like a 21st century American foreign policy. and a
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: little more like something out of the imperialist days of
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: the British Empire. It is disgusting what we're doing here.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna get into it. And then I'm gonna end
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: with something a bit personal before we get to the
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: interview with Mike DeWine. My old high school is disappearing.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: I went to a public high school. Now look, it's
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: not literally disappearing, at least not yet, but Miami Killian
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Senior High School, I'm class of 1990, which once had
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: more than 3000 students, now barely has 400 students. And
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: the reason why, gets at something bigger about public education,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: school choice, and the loss of community in this country.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: But first, I'm going to kick things off with a
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: topic I'm the most excited about over the next, frankly,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: four months and over the last weekend, and that is,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: of course, college football. College football is back, and no,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: I'm not giving you my take on what happened on
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: the field. There's another reason why I enjoy when college
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: football comes back during a campaign season, because For somebody
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: who is both a political junkie and a college football junkie,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: this is becoming an even more fun time of the
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: year for someone like me. Because with college football comes
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: a lot more political advertising than we ever used to get.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: And there's a reason for that, frankly, due to the
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: fragmentation of everything. pretty much big live sporting events is
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: sometimes the only way to talk to a larger swath
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: of voters, particularly those that are not stage left or
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: stage right. Because if you're running a statewide campaign in
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: a competitive state and you're not advertising on Saturdays on
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: college football games involving the major universities in your state,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: you're probably committing political malpractice at this point. Because look,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: think about How many places are left where you can
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: reliably find a large number of swing voters, independents and
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: low attention voters all watching the same thing at the
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: same time?
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: It's sports.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: That's it. College football and the NFL have the biggest
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: chunk of these types of voters. So I have found
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: it very interesting these days, not simply to which ads
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I see during these games, but which campaigns are advertising
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: and which ones aren't. Because that was also notable. And
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: this weekend, I noticed three things. I was watching a
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: little NC State in Virginia and I kept seeing advertising.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: We also saw a little North Carolina TCU. So you
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: had a North Carolina races in two different games. And
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: I saw a lot of advertising from the pro Roy
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Cooper side attacking Michael Watley and trying to define Watley.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: It's interesting. They're hitting Watley on crime issues because it
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: is actually one of Roy Cooper's potential weaknesses. He's been
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: hit over the years about the issue of rape kits
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: and what's happened while he was attorney general of the state.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: So it strikes me as one of those ad campaigns.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: It's neutral. What was interesting, though, is I saw a
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: lot of that ad. I didn't see much of Whatley
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: fighting back. Doesn't mean I'm not giving you 100% here.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: But then when you're watching TCU North Carolina, you weren't
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: just getting North Carolina ads because TCU was involved. I
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: was getting some Texas political advertising. And there was one
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: anti-James Tallarico ad I saw quite a bit. Obviously, a
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: pro Ken Paxton ads of sorts. But what struck me
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: was the issue they chose. It was China, specifically Chinese
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: interest buying land in Texas. And there's this menacing map
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: and it's got red Chinese red spreading across, starting in
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: West Texas and making its way towards the big major
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: cities in Dallas and Houston, etc., And the ad blames
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Tallarico for a vote he cast in the legislature. And his, look,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: his voting record in the legislature puts him, you can
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: really paint him further out of the mainstream. And I
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: expect a lot of picking at his voting record to
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: be chum for the negative ads that go after him.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: But this ad was striking because it was like, wait
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: a minute. So to blame for the Chinese buying land
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: in Texas? You're like, wait a minute, Republicans have controlled
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Texas for what, about a quarter century? There's been a
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Republican governor going back every year since 1995, a Republican
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: attorney general that goes all the way back till then.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: They've complete control of the legislature for that entire time
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: as well. So you're telling me that James Tallarico, a
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Democrat serving in the minority in the Texas legislature was
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: somehow so powerful that he single-handedly allowed the Chinese to
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: start buying up land in Texas, right? I mean, the
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: ad is kind of ridiculous, right? And obviously if this
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: is such a crisis, You know, the first thing I
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: would hope some people are doing when they're watching this
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: as is, well, what is Greg Abbott doing about this?
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: He's the governor. He's the commander in chief of the
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Texas National Guard. What did Ken Paxton do? The Republican
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: attorney general. What did the Republican legislature do? I know
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: I'm being a little snarky here, right? And I get it. Look,
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: I understand why they're doing this type of act. And
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: this is about trying to neutralize, I think specifically the
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: data center issue, the panic among Republicans in Texas, over
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: the politics of data center is something else right now.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like they have, I mean, Abbott
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: has done the 180 as fast as any Republican in
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: the country on this. Paxton doing the same thing. Look,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: they see the polls. They clearly see that this is
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: not popular, left and right alike. They know there's anger
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: about electricity. And in Texas with that grid, they have
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: their own grid. There's always concern that it can't hold up.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And now you're letting data centers suck even more power
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: out of it. There's anger about water. They're always fighting
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: over water in West Texas. And there's anger about the land.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: And there's anger about these enormous technology companies coming into communities,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: consuming huge amounts of power and resources and people wondering
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: whether they're going to get anything out of the deal
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: other than a higher utility bill. So I think the
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: China message is an attempt to muck that up. Take
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: this anxiety about land and development and who's benefiting from
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: it and turn it into, well, the real problem is China.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Foreigners are buying Texas. And by the way, James Tallarico
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: helped them out. So it's classic fear mongering. But foreign
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: ownership of land has has some political potency. I've seen it.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: I've seen versions of this message over the last couple
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: of cycles, mostly from the right and occasionally from Democrats
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: hitting Republicans on this as well. So I don't dismiss it.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's a easy thing to get voters upset about.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: But here's a mistake that campaigns make, particularly Democratic campaigns,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: though both parties can do this. They'll see an ad
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: like this and they'll react the way I did, just like, well,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: that seems kind of ridiculous. Do we really think voters
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: are going to buy that this Democratic state rep in
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the minority somehow was so powerful as a state rep
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: in the minority in the Texas Democratic legislature that he
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: could solely on his own clear the way for the
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Chinese to buy Texas land, right? And I could see
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: plenty of people in his orbit saying, well, oh, don't
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: worry about this ad. Nobody's going to believe it. It's
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: not a believable ad. And if you run an ad
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: that's not believable, it won't penetrate. Everybody knows it's Republicans
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: who run Texas. So if the Chinese are buying land,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: it was Republicans that let them do it. And this
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: is where we all know now that's not true, folks.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: People are willing to believe a lot of things if
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: that's the only thing they're hearing over and over again.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: So if I'm the Tallarico campaign, I'd be answering this
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: ad directly, not indirectly. I'd lean into it. I'd say,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: they're right. This is a problem. And here's who's letting
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: it happen. So we'll see. But it was one other thing.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I saw a lot of these pro-Paxton ads hitting Tallarico. Supposedly,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: a Tallarico ad aired as well. I missed it. Now, look,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I'm all over that. I saw a lot of Cooper.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I didn't see a lot of Whatley. Now, look, it's
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: August and we're just getting into the period when the
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: less politically engaged voters begin paying attention. Football season is
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: when they start paying attention. So this is when you
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: have an opportunity to try to define the race with
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: these voters. So it's interesting to me is who's trying
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: to define the race early and who's allowing themselves to
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: be defined. Just file this away. By the way, there's
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: one other political-ish ad that caught my attention. It was
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: essentially an ad for the current version of the Protect
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: College Sports Legislation. And the pitch was basically, if Congress
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: doesn't act, you're going to lose everything except basketball and
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: football in the college sports. There'll be no more Olympic sports,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: no more non-revenue sports. You know, women's sports will be attacked,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: the whole thing. So welcome back, college football. The games
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: are back. The marching bands are back. And for me,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: us political junkies trying to read the tea leaves, the
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: political ads are back. So by the way, speaking of elections,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: tomorrow night, we've got The marquee race for tomorrow night's
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Massachusetts primary is Markey Moulton, Ed Markey running for reelection,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Seth Moulton challenging him in a primary. This is one
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: of those generational challenges, but it doesn't match the ideological
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and the generational that we've seen. Moulton running a little
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: more as a center left candidate, Markey over 80, but
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: running as the super progressive candidate. Finally got his AOC endorsement,
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: which he had been begging for for weeks. I still suspect,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: this has not been a good incumbent mindset. So I
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: think this race is gonna be pretty close. I guess
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: you gotta make Markey the favorite here. He pulled this
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: off before in this sort of similar when he had
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: the primary with Joe Kennedy III. But Steve Lynch, who's
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: running for reelection, he could be in trouble. By the way,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: good news for Massachusetts independents. In the November ballot, there
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: is a proposal to essentially go to a top two,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: regardless of party primary system, because Massachusetts, I think, ranks
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: last in competition. And look, it's a it's a state
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: where a majority of registered voters are not Republican or Democrat.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: They're independent. I know people always are shocked when they
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: hear that statistic. I think there is no more disenfranchised voter,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: bigger disenfranchised voter in America than the independents and Democrats.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. I really hope voters pass this. We need
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: some good competition in Massachusetts. Here's one of our original
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: small D democracy states. They should be leaning into democracy,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: not trying to manipulate it as successfully as it gets
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: manipulated in a one party system. So as always, Chris Eliza, DDHQ,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: we're gonna have a live stream. Be sure to join
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: us for that. So let me get back to the
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: beginning of where I'm gonna focus today's conversation. We're close
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: enough to November that every one of these elections gives
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: us another little piece of information about the electorate that
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: we're dealing with. And I think we already know that
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: the electorate is gonna be voting on one giant issue.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: In fact, I don't think I have to say the
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: word think anymore. We know, it is prices, prices, prices, prices.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: We spent the last election talking about inflation and affordability,
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: and guess what? We're doing it again. Data centers are
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: gonna be in the ether, don't get me wrong. The
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: backlash against the tech giants is also going to be
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: in the atmosphere. The growing anger of corporate America is
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: also underneath a lot of this. Immigration will matter. Iran matters.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Ukraine.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: Tariffs, trade. It all matters. But here's the thing. A
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: lot of these actually aren't separate issues anymore. All these
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: policy choices that Trump has made, they're all showing up
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: in the same place. Prices. The Iran war? Energy prices.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Fertilizer prices. Transportation prices. Grocery prices. How about Ukraine? Same thing, energy, wheat, food.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: How about the tariffs and the trade war? Again, what
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: does it impact? Prices, even the data center. Electricity prices, right?
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: All of these issues go to, immigration, same thing. Labor costs, housing,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: food production. Once again, all contributors to Trump's inflation on
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: your weekly grocery bill. So we may be having all
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: these different policy debates in Washington, but to the voter,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: All of them seem to be impacting the same thing.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: How much does it cost for me to survive? So
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: if this blue wave materializes this November, we're not going
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: to need a six-month archaeological dig or some sort of
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: autopsy to try to figure out what happened. We know
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the answer. Prices. And here's the political problem for Republicans.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: This economy is about to get worse, not better. There
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: is no green shoots down the road. Because some of
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: the price pressures building right now haven't even made it
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: through the system yet. Axios had a piece on Sunday
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: that they called the coming grocery apocalypse. That was their phrase.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: It's obviously a dramatic headline to get you to click,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: but it's an important headline. Look what's underneath it. Americans
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: have already been getting hammered on certain foods, beef, coffee, chocolate, tomatoes, apples.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Now you've got price pressures building across a much wider
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: portion of the food supply. Corn and wheat prices have
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: hit their highest levels in three years. The weather isn't
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: helping here. We've got extreme weather. Droughts have been impacting
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: things in some places. The Russian-Ukraine war continues to disrupt
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the wheat issue and fertilizer. Iran war is driving up
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: fuel costs, also a fertilizer issue, right? Because the Iran
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: war is screwing up with fertilizer supplies because much of it,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: much of the world's fertilizer moves through the Strait of Hormuz.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Good job, Donnie. And this is where inflation gets sneaky.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: It doesn't hit you all at once, right? Fuel gets
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: more expensive. Now it costs the farmer more to run
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: the equipment. Costs more to harvest. Costs more to move
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: the food. Fertilizer gets more expensive. Now the crops cost
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: more to grow. Corn gets more expensive. Well, guess what
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: corn does? Feeds animals. Eventually it all works its way
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: into meat, dairy, eggs. Then all of it has to
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: get transported. Again, higher price. This is why the grocery
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: problem worries me more today than it did even six
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: months ago. Hey, this episode of the Chuck Todd cast
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: is brought to you by Ethos. Look, let me tell
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: you about life insurance. As you know, Ethos is an
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: incredible portal for helping you find the right life insurance policy.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: I'm a huge believer in life insurance. I wouldn't have
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: gotten to college in Washington, D.C. without life insurance. My
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: father had a policy buried somewhere that we discovered, and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a lot of money, but it was an
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: important bucket of money at a time that my mother,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: newly widowed, single mom, me, I'm 16. It was of enormous,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: enormous help at that time. And This is why I
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: believe in life insurance. You don't know what could happen
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: to you on any given day. This is literally an
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: insurance policy for that. So let me tell you a
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: little bit about Ethos. Ethos makes getting life insurance fast
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: and easy. It's 100% online. You get a quote in seconds,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: you apply in minutes, and you can get coverage the
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: same day you begin this process. There's no medical exam.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: You just answer a few simple health questions. You can
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: get up to $ 3 million in coverage. Some policies are
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: as low as $ 30 a month. and you'll get your
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: lowest rate from their network of trusted carriers. Ethos has
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: gotten 4.9 out of 5 stars on Trustpilot with over
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: 5,500 reviews. So, take 10 minutes to get covered today,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quote at ethos.com
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: slash chuck. That is E-T-H-O-S dot com slash chuck. Application
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: times may vary. The rates may vary. That Trustpilot rating
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: was as of August of 2026. The administration can point
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: to a month where an inflation number looks better. Okay, maybe, fine.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Some of the costs being created today aren't going to
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: show up at a Safeway tomorrow. They're going to show
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: up six months from now. So this is going to
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: be sustaining this inflationary environment that we're living in. Nine
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: months from now, they're still going to be there. A
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: year from now, JP Morgan is now warning that global
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: food inflation is going to be could reach 5% during
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: the first half of 2027. We freaked out at jumping
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: over 2%.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: 5%?
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Now here's another problem. If this starts showing up broadly
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: in inflation again, what's the Federal Reserve supposed to do?
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: We know what they're supposed to. They're gonna have to
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: raise rates. And Donald Trump's gonna lose his shit. And
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: here we go again, right? Kevin Warsh is going to
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: be a responsible economist here. He's gotta let the data
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: do the talking, and Trump's gonna threaten to fire him
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: when he does it. We know Trump wants lower rates
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: because he's got business that is tied to the Federal
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Reserve rate. He's got debt issues that he... Remember, Trump
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: never advocates for something that is benefiting somebody else. He
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: only advocates for economic policy that personally impacts him. And
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: he's got massive amounts of debt with... tied to the
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Trump organization, that it's tied to this Federal Reserve number.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: That's why this guy bitches and moans about the lower
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: rates all the time. It's never about you with him.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Just always remember, it's always about his personal self-interest, which
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: is why it's such a shame that so many free
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: market conservatives shut up about this. Jesus, cry many guys,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: speak up before this man destroys the economy as we
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: know it. Now, look, if inflation starts taking off again,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: and it looks really likely it's going to, they can't
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: pretend it's not happening. So now think about the trap
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: we're in. Food prices are going to go up. Energy
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: prices are going up. Tariffs are pushing more prices up.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Then the Fed has to make borrowing more expensive to
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: keep all that from turning into another inflationary spiral or cycle.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Spiral would indicate it would go down. We're going to
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: go somehow in the other way. So then Even worse economy,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: higher mortgage rates, higher credit card rates, higher buying costs
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: for business. This is how we become the 1970s America.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Good job, Donnie. He wanted to make America the 1970s again.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: That's not a good thing to wanna become, but here
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: we are. So look, prices, prices, prices. That's what this
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: election is about. Speaking of which, on Friday, I decided
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: I wanted to understand one piece of this a bit better,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: the beef situation. So for Newsphere, I went down to
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: the Black Locust Livestock Cattle Ranch. It's a cattle ranch
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: near Middleburg, Virginia. So not that far away from where
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: I live in Arlington, Virginia, about an hour or so drive.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Beautiful part of our state. You know, we love that
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: part of it. So I spent some time with Brandon Reeves.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: He is the executive director of the Virginia Cattlemen's Association.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: By the way, go over to Newsphere. It's already up now.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Watch the whole thing because this is one of those
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: interviews where I went in knowing just enough about the
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: subject to ask questions and came out realizing how much
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: more complicated the cattle industry is to our grocery store prices. Um,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: and it's more complicated than the way we are talking
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: about it here in Washington. So, and yes, I brought
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: some beef home from that cattle ranch and I grilled
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: those steaks on Saturday night. Um, And maybe this is
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: in my head. Maybe somebody who understands meat better than
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: I do will tell me I'm making this up. But
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I swear to God, when you get beef that hasn't
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: gone through, shall we say, the grocery store process, it
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: seems to taste different. It just tastes less preserved. I
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: don't know how else to put it. It just tastes
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: fresher if it could. Anyway, beautiful farm, great experience. So please,
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: I would love for you to go watch it. If
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: you haven't gotten your New Sphere trial, go sign up.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: sign up for Newsphere. But here's the big thing I learned.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: You can't fix beef prices quickly, despite what Trump's trying
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: to do. Washington talks about this stuff like there's a
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: dial somewhere. Ground beef is seven bucks. Okay, let's turn
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: the tile. We'll import more beef, problem solved.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Nope.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Except the cow doesn't care that there's an election in
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: 65 days. And it takes about a year just to
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: raise a calf to the point where it moves into
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: the next stage of the beef supply. So if you're
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: a rancher deciding whether to keep A young female cow,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: because you want her producing calves and expanding your herd,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: you're making an investment that's going to take years to
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: pay off, not months, years. And that's the key to
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: understanding this problem. Because guess what? America doesn't have enough
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: cattle at the moment. Our herd, collective herd for the
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: country is historically small, smallest in 75 years. And guess what?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: 75 years ago, our population was basically, I think, a
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: third of what it is today. And some of what
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: we're experiencing today is the result of decisions that were
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: made years ago. COVID screwed up the processing system. Ranchers
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: got hammered then. We had a drought, higher feed costs.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: We've had all these higher fuel costs, borrowing costs. So
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: for the last few years, ranchers haven't been able to expand.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: Some even got out completely. And now years later, we
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: consumers are paying for it. So Trump sees ground beef
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: around $ 7 a pound and he panics. Oh no, we
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: got to lower that price before the election. So I
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: get the impulse. In fact, politically, he should be obsessed
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: about this because it's killing him. It's killing his administration.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: So what did they decide to do? Let's bring in
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: more foreign beef, get more supply in. Maybe the price
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: comes down. But here's what Brandon Reeves said to me
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: about this decision. He said, okay, and maybe you might
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: get some short-term relief, literally like maybe a month or two.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: But what does the rancher who's American rancher here? Well,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: this is what Brandon told me. And you got to
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: know about Brandon. This is a third generation, I think
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: fifth generation rancher who also has a law degree. He
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: spent years waiting for cattle prices finally to reach a
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: level where maybe this business makes sense again. And he said,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: other ranchers, this is what they're hearing. He says, so
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: then they have to decide, do I expand? Do I
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: borrow money? Is this a good time to borrow money?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: Is it a good time to buy equipment? Do I
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: keep more cows? Can my son or daughter actually make
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: a living doing this? Am I going to pass this down?
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: And so right when this rancher is considering making that investment,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Washington says, We're bringing in a bunch of foreign beef
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: because we need the price down before the election. So
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: if you're this sort of family ranch, why would you
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: expand at this moment? That's the problem. So Trump inadvertently
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: has made it even harder for the American beef industry
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: to keep up with American demand. So you may lower
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: the price today by doing the very thing that keeps
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: the American herd smaller tomorrow. And there's another piece of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: this that I learned that I hadn't appreciated. We don't
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: have enough places to process the cattle we already have.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: This industry has become incredibly concentrated, right? I mean, we've
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: got a problem of monopolies and duopolies in this country, right?
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: In our politics, the duopoly of these two parties, right?
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Doing all the damage they've done. Well, guess what? Concentration
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: of power anywhere sucks for you and me, the consumer.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: We have four enormous companies right now process the overwhelmingly
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: majority of American beef. And we're losing processing capacity in
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: parts of the country. Brandon Reeves was telling me that
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: basically the East Coast and the West Coast ranches are
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: getting squeezed because these conglomerates are shutting down the East
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Coast and West Coast processing plants and just trying to
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: concentrate them all closer to the Midwest. So believe it
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: or not, smaller ranchers can wait almost a year or
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: more in order to get time and space at a
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: local processor. So there's an actual policy agenda sitting here.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: We need to create more incentives for more regional processing.
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: We need to create more competition. We need to help
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: ranchers finance expansion. We need to lower their energy and
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: transportation costs. Give them some certainty about trade because we
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: keep Trump's trade mess. Give them enough confidence about where
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: the market will be two or three years from now
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: that they'll actually take the risk of producing more cattle.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: That's how you eventually lower the price of ground beef.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: But Donald Trump, who just knows so little about the
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: economy in general, gosh, I mean, there's nothing more insulting
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: about the Trump presidency than the ignorance he brings to it.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: It's one thing to lie. It's another thing to be
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: dumb about it. It's just very frustrating. So look, what
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: I just described will eventually lower the cost of beef,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: but it ain't going to happen tomorrow and it ain't
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: going to happen by 27. And that's the problem with
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: so much of the economic policy we're seeing right now.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Trump just is trying to solve for a headline, solve
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: for a poll, solve for November. The cow doesn't give
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: a damn about your poll. The cow operates on her
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: own schedule. So maybe you knock something off the price
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: for about two weeks. But if you've just convinced another
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: group of ranchers not to expand their herds, congratulations, you
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: may have made the next beef shortage even worse. By
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the way, the farmer is also getting squeezed by that
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: same fertilizer and diesel price increase that we've been talking about.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: The grocery store story, the cattle story, it's all part
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: of the same story, folks. The cost of producing food
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: is rising and it's gotten worse because of decisions Donald
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Trump has made. The cost of transporting food is rising
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: because of decisions Donald Trump has made. The cost of
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: borrowing money to produce food is going to rise again
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: because of decisions Donald Trump has made. Remember, this is
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: his decisions. He can't blame Biden. Biden didn't create this
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: tariff war. Biden didn't create the trade war. Biden didn't
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: start the Iran war. Well, you know, Trump keeps looking
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: for a 30-day answer to a three-year problem. Now, I'm
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: going to put one more number in context next to
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: all of this. Corporate America, they're doing great. This is
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: another story that feeds right into this anger that is
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: growing in this American electorate. The Financial Times looked at
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the latest government data. Ready for this? Corporate pre-tax profits
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: reached an annualized number in the second quarter of $ 4. 8 trillion. 18%
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: of the overall national income. It's the highest share that
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: corporate America has taken of national income since the aftermath
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: of World War II. And guess what? At the same time,
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the share of income going to workers, through wages and
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: benefits is around 60%. It is the lowest take-home pay
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: for workers since the 1950s, this piece of the pie.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Not the pay itself, but the piece of the pie.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: So you want to understand why everybody's so pissed off,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: why the pitchforks are being sharpened? This tells you everything.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Why is there anti-corporate anger out there left and right? This.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Why is there anti-tech anger?
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: This.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Why is there, you know, there's your Bernie Sanders voter
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: and there's your MAGA voter, folks. And there's your independent
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: voter who's doing the double shooters to the whole goddamn
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: system at the moment. Corporate America is producing record profits
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: while workers receive an historically smaller share of the pie,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: the smallest we've seen in nearly 80 years. That's why
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: everybody's so fricking pissed off, folks. And if your wealth
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: comes from assets, stocks, investments in the AI boom, you've
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: had an incredible few years. Things are going really well.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: But if your economic life is like what a majority
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: of Americans' economic life is, you get up, you go
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: to work, you get a paycheck, you go buy groceries
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: on the way home, pay your bills. You're looking around
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: and saying, where the hell is my boom? I'm getting
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: shit from this. That's the disconnect in American politics right now.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: And Donald Trump's busy cutting deals with these wealthier and
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: wealthier corporations. These corporations are just spending money to capture politicians.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: And they don't seem to give a shit that the
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: American public hates them. Hates them right now. Because all
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: you're doing is buying off politicians. You're not even trying
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: to buy off Americans. That's been my argument about the
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: data center.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Shit.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Instead of lavishing money on a politician, why don't you
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: lavish money on a community? At least it's money better spent.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: So I think this is why Washington continues to just
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: misunderstand the anger in this country. You know, just because
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: you look at the GDP chart and say, oh, America's
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: economy is growing, everything should be great. This is not
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: an all boats rising moment, folks. One more interesting piece
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: of data here to share with you on the economic front.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Notice what probably will become some form of what we
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: hope is the Washington star. But anyway, it's the new
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Robert Albritton competitor to the Washington Post. Well, notice, as
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: it's still called now, look at who is actually getting
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: hit the hardest by the high gasoline prices. And this
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: won't shock you. It's Trump voters. I've told you this before. 80%
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: of 7% of workers in the reddest states in the
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: country and the 20% of reddest states in the country
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: all drive farther. They have fewer transit options. So households
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: in the reddest parts of America are spending roughly twice
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: as much of their income on gas as households in
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: the bluest parts. So you may see the California gas
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: price and think, oh, the Californians must be pissed. But
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: they've got alternative ways all over the place. They're not
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the ones paying. They also have higher incomes in California.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: So the share of their income that fuel is taking
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: is actually smaller than what's happening in red America. So
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: the people absorbing some of the greatest pain from the
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Iran war impact on energy prices are disproportionately Trump's own voters. Now,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: they keep giving him a little bit of latitude, but
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: we'll see how many of these folks are going to
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: show up and vote. And by the way, Trump's made voting.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: He wants to make voting harder in the mail. The
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: irony is that he's going to hurt his voters more
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: than he's going to hurt Democratic voters. Democrats are fighting
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: really hard to make sure MAGA voters aren't confused about
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: the election. By the way, as that's the irony to
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: all this back and forth. So we shall see. We're
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: 65 days from the election. and the people paying the
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: highest price for Trump's terrible policies for our economy are
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: all his voters. What are they gonna do? I don't
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: expect them to vote for Democrat. Will they vote third party?
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Will they skip a race or two? Will they show up?
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: The longer this war goes on, the more the war
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: itself is gonna become an economic issue. And that brings
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: us to another problem with Iran. The war isn't simply
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: making things more expensive. It's also making us more vulnerable.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: This should scare, this also just more, I'm here. I'm
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: bringing the good news to you folks today. Hey, guess what?
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: This economy is going to get worse, not better. And
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: guess what? We've never been less safe. Washington Post over
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: the weekend is reporting that senior American military leaders have
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: warned the defense secretary, Pete Hague, said that continuing a
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: large scale war operation against Iran at this current level
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: is unsustainable. That's their word, unsustainable. And that continuing this
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: war is weakening America's ability to deal with threats somewhere else.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: This is the Pentagon telling the civilian leader of the Pentagon,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: we are stretched too thin. Jesus H, you know what?
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: How bad is our military leadership? Is the civilian leadership
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: of the Pentagon? Is our defense leadership? Did we really
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: do this? I mean, this is impeachable stuff. This is
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: putting the nation at risk. This is just a... This
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: should be at a level of outrage that we're not
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: going to get. But we are literally in danger now,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: more in danger today than America has been arguably since
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: the Cold War. And the people responsible for Europe, the Pacific,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: our military leaders, and Latin America have had ships, aircraft,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: other equipment pulled away to support the Iran war. Several
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: of these commanders have formally disagreed with continuing to give
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: up those assets. But they have to follow orders. They're
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: military officers. but they're putting on the record internally their disagreement.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: We think this is creating too much risk. The Navy's
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: warning is particularly disturbing. According to the Post, barely one-fourth
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: of the Navy's destroyer fleet is currently ready to deploy.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Think about that. One-fourth. There is no chance. China tomorrow
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: could take Taiwan. We could do shit about it. Good job, Pete.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: We've burned through enormous quantities of the missiles we use
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: to shoot down other missiles. We've burned through the Tomahawks.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: We've lost roughly a quarter of our Reaper drone fleet.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: We've extended deployments where so bad soldiers have tried to
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: leap into the ocean to leave the ship. We've got
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: sailors and ships that need maintenance. We got more than
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: 50,000 troops still sitting in the Middle East in case
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: the president decides to escalate again. And the only aircraft
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: carrier permanently assigned to the Pacific, the carrier that's supposed
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: to be part of our deterrence against China, had to
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: be sent to the Middle East to relieve another carrier
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: that had been deployed for more than 300 days. So
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: let me put this in American. We are running low
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: on stuff. We are wearing out equipment and we are
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: wearing out people. We are borrowing military capability from Europe
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: and Asia to keep this thing going. And this is
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: not an abstraction. Every ship we move from the Pacific
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: to the Middle East is a ship that's not in
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: the Pacific. Every air defense system we move in is
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: an air defense system somebody else doesn't have. Every munition
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: we're firing is one we have to replace. And remember
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: one of the things we're already learning before this war
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: was just how slowly we're able to replenish those weapons.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: These are the weapons we've been selling to Ukraine, right?
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: So there is opportunity cost to all of this. Eventually,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: you're going to have to ask, at what point does
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: fighting this war make us less capable of deterring the
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: next one? We may already be there. Russia hasn't gone away.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: China is eyeing us with, I mean, you know, there's
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: been no bigger winner from this second Trump term than China.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: China has better relations around the world with every ally
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: we had when Trump started his presidency. You could call
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: that a hot take, but it's a fact, folks. I mean,
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: there is no bigger winner from Trump's second term than China.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: The rest of the world doesn't stop creating problems simply
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: because the United States has decided to concentrate an enormous
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: amount of our military capacity in the Middle East again.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: And then this is where this Iran war gets even
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: more troubling. Six months into this war, we've got a
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: clearer picture of what it's actually cost us. The Post
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: is reporting this morning that some of the most senior
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: military leaders in the country have said, we cannot sustain this, period.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: And here's a part that I think deserves much more attention.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: We keep talking about this as if the question is,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: are we winning the Iran war? Well, it's no longer
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: the only question. What are we no longer prepared to
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: do because we're fighting the Iran war? That's what's scary here.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: That's a problem. Everything we've got now, we've got to
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: replenish our munitions. And everything, it's just like with this
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: beef issue, you can't just turn a dial and suddenly
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: get a factory just churning this stuff out. We have
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: put ourselves in a place where we're even limited in
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: what we could do, right? If he really wanted to
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: win this Iran war, and he wanted to really try
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: to get the Strait of Hormuz back under sort of
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: maritime law, It would take ground troops, but we don't
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: have the ability to do that. He has put himself
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: in a situation where he can't follow the best military
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: advice he may be giving because we are so constrained
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: on supplies. And look, this is where, and I said
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: this a couple of weeks ago, what the frick have
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: we been spending all this money on? And we are
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: this unprepared. One small excursion of a war. Remember, that's
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: what the president called it. One little excursion of a war.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: And suddenly we can't defend Taiwan anymore. We got Putin
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: thinking about attacking a NATO country because he wants to
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: see what we would do or couldn't do. Look, you
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: may think Putin's crazy. He's losing the war with Ukraine.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Why would he expand it? Sometimes that's what you do.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: You're losing. So you're trying to scramble everything. I think
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: we should be incredibly concerned, incredibly concerned that this is
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: going to happen. And I think that's why, look, we
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: have all sorts of stories about what the CIA director,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: why they were meeting with Putin. Was it to try
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: to get a peace meeting, a trilateral meeting between Putin, Zelensky,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: and Trump? Was it about getting Russia to back off
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: helping Iran? Was it about warning Russia, don't try to
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: see if NATO is vulnerable right now. All of those
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: outcomes are not good. What it really struck me, and
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: I'm sure what Putin heard, was a desperate American president,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: desperate for Russia to hand him a win. Why is
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Russia going to do that? You know, at this point,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Putin's just fighting for his survival. Putin feels like if
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: he capitulates now, there's going to be revolution in his
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: own country. And he's, you know, he's Tchaikovsky. You know,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's just I think it's inevitable that
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: that's what's likely to happen there. But it is it is.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: We are very vulnerable now, and I hope one of
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: our adversaries doesn't try to take advantage of the moment.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: But that's the fear. That they may try to take
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: advantage of this moment. And speaking of America's reputation around
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: the world, I want to move to Venezuela here for
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: a minute. Because I don't know how else to describe
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: what the Trump administration announced Friday night other than to say,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: this sounds like something out of the imperialist days of
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: the British Empire. Seriously, what are we doing here? The
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: president announced that the United States has reached an agreement
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: with Venezuela, a country that we've essentially taken its leadership
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: over by gunpoint. And it supposedly gives us control over
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: oil fields containing some 65 billion barrels of proven reserves.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to walk through what we know because
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: the details here matter. The United States and an unnamed
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: private operator apparently are going to form a new company
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: with Venezuela. And who's the socialist regime these days? But
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I digress. That company gets the rights to develop 17
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Venezuelan oil fields for 100 years. You heard that right,
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: 100 years. Imperialist much? And according to the reporting, the
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: United States gets 55% of the effective output of this company.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: including an ownership stake and the right to buy some
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: of the oil at cost. Some of that oil would
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: go to the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. Some could be used
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: by the military. The administration says this is going to
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: dramatically increase American energy security. And Trump is selling it as, quote,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: the biggest oil deal in the world. All right, but
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: let's hang on a minute here. Whose oil is this?
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: It's Venezuela's oil. And how exactly did we get here?
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: We sent the American military into Venezuela. We kidnapped, captured,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. Nicholas Maduro, look, he
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: was a bad dude. No doubt. And we've brought him
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: to the United States to face federal charges on drug trafficking.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: But now, before the Venezuelan people have been able to
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: hold an actual small-D democratic election and establish a new
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: small-D democratic legitimate government, the United States has negotiated a
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: century-long arrangement giving itself privileged access to Venezuela's most valuable
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: natural resource that could help their own people. I'm sorry.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: What else do you call that? If Russia did this,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: what would we call it? If Vladimir Putin invaded a country,
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: removed its leader, installed or blessed an interim government, and
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: then announced that Russia had negotiated a 100-year deal, giving
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: itself majority control over the development of that country's principal
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: natural resource, what would we call it? I could tell
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: you what a political scientist would call it, imperialism. We
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to come up
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: with a more polite word for it, actually. And I'm
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: having a hard time understanding why the standards should be
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: different just because we're doing it. There's so much about
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: this deal that we don't know. We don't know who
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: this private contractor is. We don't know exactly what the
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: ownership structure is going to look like. We don't know
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: who's putting up the money. Venezuela's oil infrastructure is a
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: mess because of Maduro's horrible leadership. Experts say it could
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: take years and tens of billions of dollars to get
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: production anywhere close to what Venezuela once produced. So when
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: Trump says this is gonna lower gas prices, well, it
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: might someday add supply, but it ain't lowering the price
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: of gas next week or next month. And it probably
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: isn't gonna lower gas prices before the next election, let
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: alone this one. So if the justification is, well, Americans
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: are paying four bucks a gallon and we need cheaper oil,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: this is not the short-term answer to that problem. which
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: makes the other questions even more important. Why did we
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: negotiate this now? Why didn't we wait for Venezuela to
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: actually have a democratically elected government? And who exactly is
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: Delcy Rodriguez negotiating on behalf of? The Venezuelan people or
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: Delcy Rodriguez? Remember, she's in there at the blessing of Trump.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: And I use this for a point because let's remember,
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: she wasn't some dissident waiting in the wings to restore
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: democracy in Venezuela. She was Maduro's vice president. She was
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: part of the regime. And now Donald Trump refers to
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: her as the, quote, highly respected interim president of Venezuela.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: She's got the title of president, but she was not
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: elected by the people. And she's not highly respected. Perhaps
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: she genuinely believes this arrangement is the fastest way to
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: get investment flowing back into Venezuela. Maybe. She says the
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: money will rebuild infrastructure, provide jobs, improve wages, pay for hospital. Fine.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: I hope some of that happens. I hope every bit
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: of it happens. But shouldn't all the money go to that?
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: The Venezuelan people have suffered enough. But there's another possibility
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: here that we have to at least confront. Maybe she's
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: making this deal because it's the deal that allows her
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: to remain in power. We removed her boss. We demonstrated
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: quite clearly that we can remove the government of Venezuela
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: whenever we decide to remove the government. So what exactly
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: does a negotiation between the United States government and the
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: interim Venezuelan government look like under those circumstances? How voluntary
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: was this? It's a mighty nice set of oil reserves
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: you got there, Delcy. Be a shame if you had
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: to share a jail cell with Maduro. This is not
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: some normal commercial negotiation, folks. The gun is sitting on
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: the table and everybody in the room knows it's sitting
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: right there. This is the United States. And I have
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: to tell you, I think the coverage of this has
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: been for shit. I've been surprised at how matter of
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: factly so much of this has been covered in the media.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: This is just highway robbery, folks. We're covering it as
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: if it's Exxon that was buying some drilling rights. The
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: United States used military force to remove the leader of
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: another country. And months later, we've negotiated a deal with
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: the successor puppet regime that we put in power that
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: gives the United States a privileged economic claim on that
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: country's soil for the next century. Trust me. You know
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: why two thirds of South America hates America historically? It's
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: because of bullshit deals like this we did in the 50s.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: We're supposed to be out of the imperialism game. Donald
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Trump wants to make imperialism great again. And we're supposed
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: to tell Russia to back out of Ukraine or Belarus
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: or Georgia. Man, what happened to the American argument about
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: that we were going to be different? We weren't an empire.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: We were a superpower, but we weren't going to be
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: an empire. Well, this jackass wants to be an empire,
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: which is great. Make the world hate America. Heck of
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: a job, Donnie. We weren't supposed to conquer countries for
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: their resources. We weren't supposed to say we won. What
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: do we get? But we know that's what Donald Trump
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: thinks about war. If America uses military power somewhere, America
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: ought to get something tangible in return. We get the minerals,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: the oils, the land. Remember, that's how we used to
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: complain about Iraq. How come we didn't get the oil?
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: But countries aren't properties. And their natural resources aren't supposed
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: to belong to whoever has the biggest military. At least
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: that's what we spent the last 80 years arguing that
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: we weren't going to do. So how exactly is our argument?
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: What's our argument to Putin these days? You don't get
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: to use military force to determine Ukraine's future. You don't
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: get to decide that because Ukraine sits at your sphere
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: of influence, you have special rights over its territory and
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: its resources. You don't get to impose an arrangement on
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: a smaller country simply because you're more powerful. Right? That's
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: what we've been telling Putin about Ukraine. So what are
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: we doing in Venezuela? You can't build a rules-based international
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: order where the rule is Russia can't have, can't behave
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: like it's an empire, but America can. That's not a rule.
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: It's just, It's just, you know, that's power politics. Other
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: countries are noticing. Our allies have already noticed. So have
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: our adversaries. This is our credibility problem only compounds itself.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: This isn't about whether America honors a NATO commitment. It's
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: about whether the principles that we invoke when we want
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: other countries to follow the rules are principles that we
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: will follow ourselves. There's another irony here, right? Donald Trump
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: has spent you know, the summer railing against socialism and communism.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: What are we creating in Venezuela? The United States government
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: is apparently going to have an ownership interest in an
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: oil company. Mexico took over their oil company. Operating in
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: partnership with a foreign government and a private industry with
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: the government entitled to a majority of its effective output.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: What do we call in this economic ideology? It's a
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: long way away from Milton Friedman, folks. This is just,
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: it's a terrible look for the United States. And it's
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: only going to make it harder for all of us
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Americans to travel. The world's going to hate us even more.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: South Americans are going to continue to hate. We've had
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: generations of South Americans skeptical of American imperialism. And what
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: are we doing? Behaving like American imperialists that they swear
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: we are at our core. And Donald Trump is behaving
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: this way. Should the United States have negotiated this? Before
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: the people got to choose their government, come on, let's
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: restore the democracy. Let's let Venezuelans make this decision. If
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: they choose to negotiate with us and we do it
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: this way and it's without a gun at their head,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: that's one thing. But to do it this way, it's
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: just pure coercion. And I know some people are going
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: to say, oh, come on, Chuck, welcome to the real world.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Great powers have always behaved this way. China does it.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Russia does it. European empires used to do it. Come on.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: But the whole point was we were going to be different.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: We spent most of the 20th century trying to build
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: a world where great powers weren't supposed to behave this
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: way anymore. Yeah, it was imperfect. And yeah, we were
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: hypocritical at times. But at least we had the aspiration.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: And now, if the United States decides the aspiration doesn't
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: even matter anymore, then don't be surprised when everybody else
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: decides the rules don't matter either. That's the world we're creating.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: That's why Iran just Block the straight. All right, screw it.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: We own it now. I don't think we're going to
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: like living in this world that Donald Trump has created
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: for us. All right, I'm going to end with something.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: A few weeks ago, a reporter at the Miami Herald
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: named Austin Horn called me. He was working on a
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: story about my old high school, Miami Killian Senior High.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: And the question he was trying to answer was actually
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: a pretty remarkable one. What happened to Killian? Because when
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I went there, Killian was a huge high school. When
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: I was there, we only had three grades, 10, 11,
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: and 12. and we still had something like 2,800, 2,900 students.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: At its peak, Killian had roughly 3,700 students, I think,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: when they went back to a freshman through senior. Today,
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: they have just over 400, about 430. And so when
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: you first hear that, I'm sure some of you who
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: don't know the area might naturally assume, well, the neighborhood
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: must have changed. Maybe people got older. Families moved away.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe there aren't as many kids. Except that's not what
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: happened here. The Herald found that there are actually more
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: than 3,000 public and charter high school students that live
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: inside of Killian's boundaries. Only a little more than 300
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: of them, though, actually attend Killian. So the kids didn't disappear.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Ambition to go to the school did. So what is
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: gone is the idea of the neighborhood school. And that's
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: what got me thinking, because this isn't really a story
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: about my high school. That's why I'm sharing it. It's
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: a story about something we've done to public education over
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: the last 25, 30 years. And I'm not sure we've
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: spent enough time thinking about what we traded away when
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: we empowered parents. Look, when I was growing up in Miami,
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: Killian was never necessarily the single best high school at
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: any one thing. But it was a really good high
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: school at almost everything. We were really good academically. We
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: were really competitive athletically. Football, baseball, soccer, tennis. We sent
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: a lot of athletes to division one colleges. And there
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: were other really good public high schools all around us.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: Palmetto was probably considered a little better academically. They produced
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: a Supreme Court justice. They produced Jeff Bezos. Killian produced me. Not,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: you know, NHF Bezos, right? So we know, advantage Palmetto.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: But the point is, these were big, successful public high
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: schools that were actually connected to the communities around them.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: You lived in the Killian area, you went to Killian.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Your neighbors went to Killian. The kids you played with
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: growing up went to Killian. Their parents knew your parents.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: And the school itself became one of the institutions that
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: helped define the neighborhood. And this isn't really how South
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: Florida works anymore. Florida has spent the last couple of
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: decades becoming one of the great laboratories of school choice
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: in America. Charter schools, magnet schools, private schools, religious schools.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: You got voucher and scholarship programs that allow public money
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: to follow students to private schools. And in Miami in particular,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: it's like the Frankenstein brain of this system. You've got
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: an enormous menu of choices. Some of that existed when
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: I was growing up there. I actually attended one of
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: the early magnet junior highs. That's what we called middle
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: schools then because it was seventh, eighth, and ninth in
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: our elementary schools went K through six. There were always
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: quite a few private schools, Catholic schools, and sometimes schools
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: that were sort of connected with the different immigrant groups
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: that settled in Miami, Colombians, Cubans, Venezuelans, et cetera. There
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: were schools that specialized in certain academic programs, but now
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: it's been supercharged, right? And the result is that the
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: connection between where you live and where your kids go
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: to school has been almost completely broken. Now, there are
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: plenty of arguments for why that's been a good thing
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: at times, and I understand them. If the school you're
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: assigned to isn't working for your kid, Why should your
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: zip code trap you there? If another school has a
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: program that fits your child better, why shouldn't you be
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: able to send them there? So if you're a parent,
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: your first obligation is to your kid. I get it.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: In fact, I don't simply get it theoretically. My wife
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: and I made choices ourselves. Our kids went to the
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: local schools that were public when they were younger. And
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: then when they started high school, we sent them to
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: private school. So I'm not going to sit here and
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: lecture parents for making explicitly the kind of choice that
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: I made. But here's what I can tell you happened
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: when we made this choice. Almost immediately, our kids' community changed, right?
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Their friends were suddenly coming from all over the DMV,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: not just a certain geographic area. The parents we were
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: meeting were coming from all over. The school created its
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: own community. And by the way, it's a good community.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: These are some These parents are still good friends of
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: mine right now. Some of you are listening. Hi. But
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily our neighborhood's community anymore. Our kids were
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: a little less connected to the place where they actually lived. Now,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: multiply that decision by thousands and thousands of families. Everybody
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: makes the decision that makes sense for their kid. Everybody's
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: behaving rationally here. Don't get me wrong. Everybody is exercising choice.
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: But then one day you look around and the neighborhood
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: high school has 430 students. That's the part of the
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: school choice debate that I don't think we ever talk
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: enough about. We've spent enormous amounts of time asking the
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: following question. How do we give parents more control of
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: their child's education? It's a fair question. But we haven't
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: spent nearly enough time asking, what do we want a
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: public school to do for a community? Because those are
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: not necessarily the same question. And if you're going to
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: come at me and just simply say teachers unions, and
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: then that's all you're going to say, I'd say, just
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: go get yourself better informed on this. You can't just
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: blame teachers unions for this, but I digress. But we've
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: been treating the questions about public schooling and how much
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: power parents should have as if they're kind of the
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: same question. A school isn't simply a place where you
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: purchase an education, or at least it didn't used to be.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: It's one of the places where community becomes a community.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: It's where people who don't necessarily choose one another have
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: to deal with one another. It's actually really important. It's
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: what makes pluralism or has made pluralism work in this country.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Pluralism alert, David. You don't get to curate everybody. The
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: kid whose parents vote differently from your parents is right
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: there in the classroom with your kid. The kid from
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: the family with more money is there. The kid from
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: the family with less money is there. Different religions, different ethnicities,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: different backgrounds, different neighborhoods within the neighborhood. You end up
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: sitting next to each other in chemistry. You end up
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: playing on the same football team or in the same
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: marching band. Your parents end up sitting next to each
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: other in the bleachers. Maybe they become friends. Maybe they don't.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: But they know each other. They share something. And when
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: everybody gets to construct their own educational ecosystem, we gain something. Choice, specialization,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: maybe a better individual fit. But we lose something. We
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: lose the institution that forced the community to interact with itself.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: And so when I read about this story about Killian,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: that's what bothered me about this. Because this isn't happening
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: because this area of Kendall suddenly emptied out. It's not
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: some Rust Belt town where the factory closed and everybody left.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: The neighborhood around Killian is still considered a good place
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: to live, to raise a family. Families still live there.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Kids still live there. Again, as the story, as Austin
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: found out, more than 3000 public and charter high school
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: students live inside the Killian boundary. They're just going everywhere else.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: And Killian isn't alone. This is happening throughout Miami-Dade. Shoot,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: this is happening throughout a lot of communities, even outside
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: of Miami-Dade. But there is another piece of this that's
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: particularly interesting in South Florida, right? Some of this is
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: very cultural. As I sort of hinted at earlier, Miami
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: is filled with immigrant families, particularly from Latin America and
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: the Caribbean, who may not arrive with the same attachment
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: to the American neighborhood public school tradition. Private education, religious education,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: schools organized around particular communities. None of that necessarily feels
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: unusual to first generation Americans from Latin America who move.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: And remember, a lot of these folks were middle and
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: upper middle class, and they sent their kids to private schools.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: So you combine that with school choice, then you add
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: public money, then you add magnet schools, then you add
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: charter schools, and pretty soon everybody has an incentive to shop.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: And the public school has to become a competitor in
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: a marketplace. And that's what Killian's trying to do now.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: They're trying to reinvent itself. One of the ideas is
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: something called Sportsplex. Essentially, they're going to turn my high
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: school into a destination for sports in the sports industry.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: It's not simply just go there to play football like
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: the IMG Academy that you may have heard about. That's
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: a high school up in central Florida. But this would teach,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: start giving you classes in sports medicine, sports management, media, technology, training,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: all of this new industry that is sort of sprouted
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: up around sports. So look, I hope it works. Nobody
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: wants to watch their high school literally disappear. And maybe
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: this is how Killian will save itself. But there's an
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: irony here that is impossible to miss. Choice helped hollow
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: out Killian and how Killian is trying to use choice
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: to save itself, right? It has come up with a specialty,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: it has become a product, and it has to give
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: parents who live somewhere else a reason to choose Killian
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: over all the other choices available to them. And maybe
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: that's simply what public education has become. But then I
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: think we should at least be honest about what we're doing,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: because there's a larger philosophical question underneath all of this.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: What exactly is public education for? Is its only purpose
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: to educate the individual child? If that's the answer, then
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: maximizing choice makes a lot of sense. find the best
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: school for every kid, hard stop. Let the money follow them.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: Schools can compete. Parents decide. But if you want public
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: education to serve another purpose, if part of its purpose
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: is to create better citizens, part of its purpose is
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: to create community, if part of its purpose is to
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: put people who are different from one another into the
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: same institution and make them figure out how to live together,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: then I'm not sure the system we've created is accomplishing that.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: Our public school system used to be the source of
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: our power. And we basically gutted it. Look, I don't
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: have a neat answer here. And I'm not here to
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: tell parents, sorry, you got to sacrifice what you think
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: is best for your kid because Chuck Todd thinks neighborhood
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: schools are good civic cohesion. Obviously, it's ridiculous. Parents aren't
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: going to do that. And frankly, they shouldn't be expected
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: to solve a collective problem through individual sacrifice. That's what
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: public policy is supposed to do. But I do think
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: we've spent the last couple of decades trying to solve
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: the failures of public education by creating ways to escape
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: public education. We didn't try to fix public education. And
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: that to me is the core mistake. So we never
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: asked the question, how do we make the neighborhood school
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: good enough that families desperately want to get in? We've
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: increasingly asked, how do we make it easier for families
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: to get out? And guess what? When enough people take
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: the exit, The institution itself becomes weaker, fewer students, less money,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: everything declines. It's bad. More families look at what's left
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: and decide, well, now they've got to leave too, right?
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: It's just spirals. And then a full cycle has been
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: created that becomes incredibly difficult to reverse now. That's where
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: Killian is. So this isn't just about education and this
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: isn't just a Miami thing. This is in the context
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: of everything else we've been talking about in the country.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: Why are we so polarized? Why don't people trust each other?
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: Why does everything feel nationalized instead of local? Why does
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: everybody retreat into their own information community, their own political community,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: their own cultural community, whatever happened to the actual physical
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: local community? Well, maybe part of the answer is that
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: we spent decades dismantling some of the institutions that used
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: to make us know people we didn't choose. The local newspaper,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: the local department store, the union hall, the church, the synagogue,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: the mosque. the neighborhood school, the places where community wasn't
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: curated for the snowflakes. And no, bringing back the giant
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: neighborhood high school isn't going to fix American polarization, okay?
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: I'm not making that argument. But I am saying that
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: when we talk about the loss of community in America,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: sometimes we make it sound like this mysterious thing that
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: just happened to us. Well, look, it's been death by
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: a thousand cuts, and this has been a big cut.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: And it has produced something less healthy collectively. That's what
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: this story about Killian made me think about. Like I said,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: I look at this Frankenstein education system that's been built
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: in my home state of Florida, public schools and charter schools, vouchers, magnets,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: private schools, specialized academies, all competing for the same students
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: and increasingly the same public dollars. And I find myself
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: asking a very basic question. Did we actually make education better?
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: This is not about whether did we create more choices? Yeah,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: we created more choices. Some individual kids found better schools.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Is the system better? Is the community stronger? Are the
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: public schools better? Are the citizens we've created better? I
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: don't know. But when a perfectly healthy neighborhood has more
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: than 3,000 high school kids living in it and only 10%
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: of them attend the neighborhood high school, I think it's
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: worth asking whether something went wrong. Obviously, this hit me personally.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: I have a ton of memories in that place. Almost
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: all the ones I have are great. It was high school.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: The good, the bad, the ugly, but it was high school.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: Still have some good friends that I keep track of there.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: It's a part of me. Killian made me. And the
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: diversity of Killian helped me today understand America better. Miami
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: in the 80s is America today. We became a better
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: place because of all this diversity. And I do believe
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: America is going to experience what Miami experienced in the positive.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm pulling for Killian. I hope the sportsplex
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: thing works. Come on, guys, let's go Cougars. I hope
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: they figure out how to get enrollment back up. I
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: hope kids start filling those hallways again. And maybe, you know,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: Thursday night and Friday night football games. We had to
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: play a lot of Thursday night games because so many
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: goddamn high schools in Miami. But let's not miss the
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: larger lesson here. The most remarkable thing about the story
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: isn't that my old high school lost thousands of students.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: It's where those students went. They're all still there. They
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: still live in the community. And they still go to school.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: They just don't want to go to school together anymore.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: And it's hard to measure what we've lost. And we
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: all know we've lost something here. Somewhere along the line,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: we lost one of the places where we had no
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: choice but to know each other. I don't have a
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: good answer. But I do know we need to make
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: public schools great again if we want to make our
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: communities great again. And we want to make better citizens
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: understand what makes America an idea and not some wannabe
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: imperialist superpower.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: Let's take a break. And when we come back, my
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: conversation with the governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Well, joining me now is somebody I've known a long time,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: somebody that I've covered a long time and somebody who's
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: been in a lot of he's been in county office,
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: state government and the federal government. And he's currently the
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: governor of Ohio. Governor DeWine, do I have this right?
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: You're just saying I'm old, right?
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: How about experienced wisdom?
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. We like that better. So look, this is.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: Kind of the spirit of the conversation I want to have.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: This is not a, Hey, what do you think of
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: Lake America? Or what do you think of this? I
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: kind of, you've, you've seen a lot. You're, you seem
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: to be a little more open to talking about, you know,
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: sort of the bigger picture. You're sort of both looking
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: back and I think in looking forward. So I just
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: think it's, and what sort of, prompted me to want
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: to interview you was the conversation you wanted to have
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: about both the death penalty and frankly, the conversations you've
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: been trying to have about immigration, which in some ways
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: you've been a lonely person in these places. These aren't
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: the cleanest of political ideas. So let me start there.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Is this something, do you feel more comfortable speaking your
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: mind in this moment of your political life?
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not running again. So I suppose to some
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: extent that's true. Although if you really go back and
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: look at my positions, I was very plain and went
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: back through. I started as a county prosecuting attorney. 50
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: years ago, I first ran for office. So the last
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: 50 years, I've been in office all before. Sherrod Brown
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: beat me in 2006. And so I was off for
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: off for four years. But in some cases like the
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: death penalty, you know, I have evolved. I have, I
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: think the facts have changed. You know, I think, you know,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: my rationale for the death penalty when I went to
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: the state Senate after being a county prosecuting attorney and
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: was a co-sponsor of the death penalty bill, we passed it.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: And my rationale was really that it's, it is a deterrent.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: I think the facts today show that it's highly, highly
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: unlikely it's a deterrent. In the last six years, for example,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: in Ohio, of the people, we've only had two people
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: actually convicted of a death penalty in a death penalty case. Two,
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: if you look at how long it takes, if you
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: just exclude my time in office, because we haven't had
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: any for decades. number of reasons we've not had any executions.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: But if you go back and look at what was
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: the average length of time, it was 21 years for
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: those people who actually were executed. And a lot of
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: the people who were sentenced, you know, for various reasons,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: court decisions and other things, they never got to the
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: point where they were executed. So I think it's the
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: odds that this is a deterrent. I just think, you know,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: there has to be some surety to this. And swiftness,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: maturity and swiftness seems to me the two criteria. They're
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: in conflict, right?
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: Like I think about this, the death penalty advocate would
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: push back at you and say, well, the reason it's
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: not a deterrent is because it takes too long to
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: go from adjudication to execution.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: That's true. And my answer to that is the logical,
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: someone who is in favor of the death penalty would say,
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: we just need to speed things up. And the answer
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: to that is we've tried. I was in Congress when
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: we voted on a bill that significantly limited to the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: federal court's jurisdiction and their ability to really do anything.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: And the whole idea was that that would speed things up.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: It didn't. We still are, you know, Ohio sitting at
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: 21 years is what our, what our average is. But so,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: so that's, that's a case where I think that I,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: I would argue the facts have changed and I, I
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: followed the facts and I came out against the death penalty.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: I think it's not a deterrent. And to me, that's
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: the only moral justification you can have for the death penalty.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: If you don't think it's a deterrent, it's kind of
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: hard to, in my opinion, to do it. The other
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: issue you mentioned was immigration. And when I went to the,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: I'd been in Congress, I'd been to the House, then
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: I was in the Senate. When I went to the Senate,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: I was on Judiciary Committee. In the first year or
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: year and a half, we were involved in some significant
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: debates about legal immigration. You know, I don't think my
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: position has really changed since then. You know, I was
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: one of the people, Spence Abraham, for example, he and
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: I came to the Senate at the same time. Both
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: had the idea that, look, immigration is an integral part
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: of the success of this country. And it needs to
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: we need to continue to have democracy. legal immigrants and
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: making those decisions. I mean, I wrote an op-ed piece
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: for the New York Times 10 days ago or so.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: And one of the things I said was that the
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: President Trump, I think, has a unique opportunity. And he
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: can do something nobody else can do. He now has
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: great credibility in dealing with illegal immigration, particularly along the
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: southern border. I think now he could take that and
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: sort of do a Nixon goes to China and say, look,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: let's now fix the southern border. Now let's talk about
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: who we really want to come into this country. And
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: I think that, you know, Chuck, most people agree who've
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: really looked at this. You know, we're not making these
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: decisions based upon what's in the best interest of this country.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: We bring over, just as one example, we bring over
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: college students here. Now, they've gone down over the last
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: year or so, but we were bringing a whole bunch
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: of college students over here. We were educating them. Many,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: many of them wanted to stay. They wanted to, their
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: engineers or the doctors, they wanted to stay here. And
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: for many of them, they couldn't stay. And we're sending
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: them back. We're educating them. So just from the U.S.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: 's interest, isn't it in our interest to keep some
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: of these people and to make, you know, so all
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: the decisions, it seems to me, we need to say,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: what do we need? In Ohio, we are creating a
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: lot of jobs. We are red hot as far as business.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: CNBC ranked as number one. state for business. Our biggest
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: challenge is, do we have the people to fill those jobs?
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: If you look at our increase in population in the
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: last two years, also actually the last 10 years, numbers
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: are about the same, we have had somewhat of an increase. 60%
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: of those people are immigrants. So 60% of our increase
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: came from immigrants. So if you start... Depopulating, literally pulling
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: them out, which is what is happening today in Ohio
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: and other states. You're not going to have people who
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: can work in Springfield who are filling jobs that weren't
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: being filled. But look at the national numbers. You have
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: about a third of the people who are working in
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: nursing homes and long-term care. And a third of the
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 2: people who are doing home health care, they're immigrants. Right.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: You pull them out and who's going to take care
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: of an aging population as the baby boom generation continues
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: to get older?
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, as I joke, you know, be
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: careful trying logical arguments. Sometimes we banned logic in our
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: political debates sometime in the last few years. But I
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: want to go back to death penalty a second. Then
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: I want to get to immigration. Because I asked you
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: sort of the devil's advocate from the right. Now, let
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: me go to the devil's advocate from the left on this,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: which is there's a lot of folks who say you
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: can judge a society, you can judge a country and
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: its health of its democracy by how it treats its incarcerated.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: Do you accept that premise? Because you think about these
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: things through your faith as well. And I have a
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: feeling you don't believe you can be pro-life and pro-death penalty,
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: it sounds like to me.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a problem. I think the only
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: way you can do it is the way I justified
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: it when I said I was for it, and that
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: is we're saving lives. We're stopping murderers from killing somebody
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: or potential murderers. But if you're not saving lives, I can't.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: You can't do it. Look, I think that's one of
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: the ways of how you judge a society. I mean,
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: there's a famous, I think, Hubert Humphrey quote about that.
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: It doesn't talk necessarily about, it talks about the poor
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: and the, I can't exactly do the quote, but it's
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: a similar thought process. Look, I think what it is,
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: I believe the most effective, and this is the old
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: prosecutor in me, but it's also someone who is Attorney
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: General of Ohio and someone who studied the data. The
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: most effective way to reduce violent crime is to literally
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: incarcerate the violent offenders. And if you look at the data,
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: it's a relatively small number of the whole criminal element.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: If you just look at those who commit violent, violent crimes,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: and if you really, the most effective thing you can
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: do to reduce violent crime is to literally go after
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: these violent offenders and to literally lock them up. Besides
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: those individuals who, frankly, we don't want to see out,
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: or at least not for a long, long time, most
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: of the other ones get out quickly. Right. And so
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: we in Ohio, for example, we let out of our
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: state prison system, I think somewhere between 16 and 18000
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: people a year. They are in for a relatively short
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: period of time. So what's the most important thing? What
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 2: most important thing is we don't want them coming back.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: And so we have put an emphasis and we can
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: always do more, but on giving them training that they
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: need and helping them after they get out to have
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: it always comes down to housing and a job and transportation.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, those are the three things. And the more
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: we can help them do that, the more likely they
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: will be successful and the more likely they're not coming
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: back into our prison.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: So I always thought our prison system should be a
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: part of our community college system. Meaning it was almost
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: like mandatory if you were in prison, you know, you
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: were taking classes. And because to me, it's all if
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: you really believe in the prison system is rehabilitation, then
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: you should be providing rehabilitative services. And we know in
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: many cases. skills training, education is as good of a
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: rehab as you can come up with. Never mind. Maybe
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: there's other issues. Maybe there is some mental health issues.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: Maybe there's some healthcare issues.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: And look, we do a lot of that. I mean,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: we do a lot of that. We have our community
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: colleges who are doing courses and we've got inmates who
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: get degrees. Some people don't like that. They think they're
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: getting something free and you know, I'm out here and
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: I'm working and I got to pay. I understand that,
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 2: but it's in our self-interest. It's in our self-interest. I mean,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: we even have in Ohio, we have a company that makes,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: makes gloves and you know, they're integrated. We have people
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: who are working in that glove factory every, every single day. So,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: and then when they get out, many of them will
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: be able to work actually in that, in that factories.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: These are all things that we, you know, we are
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: doing and you can always do better. But it seems
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: to me that's the, with that many people coming out,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: your goal is give them the tools that they need
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: to make it.
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: Do you think this is, you know, it's funny, we,
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: every once in a while, we can have a nuanced
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: conversation about crime and about prisons. And then a lot
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: of times a campaign comes around and we get into these,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: you know, absolutes, right? And we create this impossibility. I mean,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: I think about, you know, one of my early years
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: covering politics was the three strikes in your out year.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: Remember that? You know, that basically that was the 1994
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: campaign theme in many ways. And I think there's a
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: lot of regret about that, right? There was a lot
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: of regret that, oh, that was an overcorrection, right? Whether
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: it's the state bills that passed in 94, 95, the
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: federal bill that passed in 96. And And we've collectively
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: decided we went too far. How do we, it feels
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: like that, and this is a good way to pivot
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: to immigration. It feels like that's where this immigration debate
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: is in that category right now, where we were in
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: crime in the 90s.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting point. I mean, there's no doubt
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: in a lot of public policy issues, we let emotion
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: drive it. You know, we are only human and that is,
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: I guess, is natural. But I mean. I can tell
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: you from looking at data long enough in regard, again,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: I started as a prosecutor. My wife says I'm still
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: a prosecutor at heart. That's what I really love doing.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: That's usually true of prosecutors, that at the end of
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: the day, they never stop being prosecutors.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: You look at things that way, but the data never
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: changes on this point. That is, it is a relatively
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: small percentage of the criminals who are the violent criminals.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: And if you really want to stop the violence, you
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: literally get them, lock them up. Now, some of them
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: will outgrow it, literally. This is a function of being,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: you know, 20 or 25 and you're a male. And,
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: you know, some of them will eventually outgrow that. But
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: that is a statistic that an analysis that never changes.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: If people really, really look at it, that's who you
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: have to get out of society if what you're worried
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: about is violent crime, which I think for most people,
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: that's what, you know, we're quite annoyed if our car
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: is stolen. But the violent crime is what we totally fear,
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: you know, for members of our family and for ourselves. Right.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: Well, going back to immigration, You know, we're a contradiction
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: as a country, right? We've, you know, we're a nation
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: of immigrants that's never been happy about that. Meaning like we're,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: I always feel as if, and this is why I'm
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: both optimistic that we're going to get through this because
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: we sort of have been through this before where when
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: we're upset at each other, we start to point, we
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: start to otherize and all this stuff. We did it
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: at the turn of the 20th century. We did it.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: at various times in the 1930s. I grew up in
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: Miami during the Mariel boat lift. I saw it firsthand.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: It's interesting to me what you've noticed with the Haitian
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: community in Ohio. That was my experience at how people
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: first didn't embrace the Haitian community in Miami and now
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: have in South Florida. And it's a vibrant part of
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: the South Florida fabric.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, you're absolutely right. You can look at different periods
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: of time when we've been very, very restrictive and other
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: periods of time where we have not. We do self-correct.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: And the reason I'm optimistic is because I think that
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: it will become apparent at some point in the not
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: too distant future that we need these people. And we
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: don't want to become Japan.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Japan didn't grow because their population,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: you know, basically got too old.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: I look at it from the point of view of Ohio.
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: I don't pretend to know what's going on in all
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: the other states. Since I've been governor, I focus pretty
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: much this. We need people.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: We need people.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: My friend Phil Graham once said, He was on the floor,
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: and I think it was immigration you're debating, but he says,
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: we need people who want to pull the wagon. We
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: don't need people who want to ride in the wagon.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: We need people who want to pull the wagon. In
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: that sense, if you want to come here and work,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: and that's what, to me, was so compelling about the
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 2: Haitians in Springfield. You talk to the employers, and what
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: the employers would say is, yeah, we had some challenges.
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: You got a cultural challenge. And you got a language challenge.
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: But I hired them. Why did I hire them? I
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: need to fill that job. And once I got them,
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: they would pass the drug test. They never passed. No
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: trouble passing the drug test. They showed up for work.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: And if I did not give them overtime, they went
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: out and got a second job. Because that's what they
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: were here to do. Some of them were shunning money
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: back home to Haiti to family. Some had brought their
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: family with them, but they all wanted to work. And
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: that's what the employers told us. And so the idea
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: that you're going to throw all these people out, it's
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: just in our own self-interest. So I guess the reason
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: I'm optimistic is I think it's going to become abundantly
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: apparent But this idea of totally, you know, throwing a
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: lot of people out, it's not a question now about
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: do you let people in the southern border? The president's
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: pretty much fixed that. But the question is, do you
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: really get rid of people who have been here five years,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: six years, seven years, two years, four years, who are
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: working and contributing? And is that in our best interest?
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: And it just seems to me it's not. Thank you.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 1: Governor, I mean, this is where it's like the American
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: public has spoken. They didn't like the chaos in the
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: border and they like immigration. Like this idea that you
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: could be for both. I want a secure border and
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: I want to have a fairly open immigration policy that
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: that has some order to it. Like that's where 60
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: percent of America is. The problem is about two thirds
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: of them are in one party, one thirds in another.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: And there's not a majority in either.
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I think you're correct. I think the majority of people,
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: it's sort of... of, you know, I think some people
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: look at it and think, yeah, I mean, we want
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: our laws enforced. And who can be against saying we
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: want our laws enforced? You know, the Haitians we're talking
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: about were here actually legally. I mean, recently they've been
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 2: they've been legally now they're now they're not.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: Look, I happen to think we have I happen to
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: think with what's happening in the Western Hemisphere that, hey,
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: if we're going to make this attitude that what happens
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: in our hemisphere, we need to worry about. I think
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: we've been derelict in our duty in with Haiti. I've
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: you know, I know it's a challenge and.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: It is. It is a challenge.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: It is. You know, I mean, you look at this
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: island of Hispaniola separated by a mountain and you have
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: one country that is just thriving. And it's this economic,
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: you know, it's having, you know, been growing. And it
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: really is. And this divide between the Dominicans and the
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: Haitians economically, culturally. It's striking.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: But anyway, look, we yes. Now we're we're. getting out
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: of my zone. Fair enough.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: Well, you were in the feds. You were in the
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: federal government. Yes, I was.
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: I was in the federal. But look, we do have
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: an interest. I'll just let it go with this. We
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 2: have an interest in stability of our neighbors. And and
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: and bluntly, we're not into I know we can't, you know,
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: fix nations. And certainly we tried in Haiti when I
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: was in the Senate. We tried. We said we sent
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: you know, we sent police officers who are Haitian from
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 2: New York City and and from Miami and other places
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: and tried to fix their police. And we didn't do it.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, it just didn't it just didn't last for many, many,
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: many reasons. But stability in the hemisphere happened. And people
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: being able to make a living is important. And so, yeah.
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: You have, I don't think your politics have changed, but
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: the party has. Where would you, do you feel like
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: you're a mainstream Republican anymore? Do you feel like the
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: Republican Party has changed? Or is this a Trump phenomenon?
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe all of the above in a sense.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that Politics have certainly changed. And look,
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, the president seems to me should get credit
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 2: for some things he's doing, at least from Mike DeWine's perspective.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 2: You know, we got too far away from the idea
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: that free trade was everything and that it wasn't important
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: if we produced anything. I mean, we went too far
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 2: that way. And what Trump has been able to say,
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: what the president says, we'll make stuff in the United States.
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: And as the governor of a manufacturing state, we have
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 2: the third largest manufacturing population workers in the whole country.
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: I like to make things. I mean, we like, you know,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: how to make things. We're good at it. And so
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 2: I think he gets a lot of credit. You should
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: get credit for that. I think he did. He's done
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: a correction and it's been a correct correction in that,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: in that regard. So, I mean, you've talked about immigration.
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: We don't necessarily agree there on at least portions of it,
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: but I do agree what he's done.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: You're comfortable with what we're doing with Canada right now?
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, look, uh, Here's the data. 31% of Ohio's exports
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: go to Canada. They're a major customer of ours. One
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: thing that I think business wants, farmers want, is predictability.
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: Well, what you're saying is you don't mind some of
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: his emphasis, but the lack of predictability makes it harder
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: to defend?
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: I think, well, the lack of predictability creates a problem,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: I think. And we need, ultimately, and I think this
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: is where most Americans are. We want to be tough
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: in negotiations. We don't want people messing us over. We
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: don't want to sign bad deals. But on the other hand,
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: we also know we have to sell overseas. So it
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: seems to me there's a sweet spot in there where
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: most Americans are, most Ohioans are. Be tough. Let's get
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: a deal. Then let's move on. I think that's where
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: most people are.
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that you look at it. I think you're right.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: I think we want fair trade, but we also want
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: cheaper goods. I mean, the consumer always wants cheaper goods.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: And this idea, and we've heard it. I remember you
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 1: probably ran against Democrats who said, no, Americans will pay
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: a little bit more to get tough on Japan. I'm
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: thinking about the 80s and then the early 90s. And
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: it's like, no, they won't. In fact, the consumer spoke
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: and Toyota started to eat the lunch of the American automaker.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: And I think we're seeing that now, that that is,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: we want fair trade, we want our workers treated well,
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: and we want cheaper goods. Can you do both? Well,
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: of course.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: Look, we all want the best, right? We all want
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: what we want. That doesn't mean, again, you have to
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: achieve that balance. And it's not an easy balance to achieve.
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: But we have to manufacture things. We have to make
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: things in this country. That's just, we can't. To me,
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: it really hit home to me during the pandemic. As
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 2: governor of Ohio, like other governors, we couldn't get N95
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: masks in. Why not? Well, they're coming from, you know, overseas.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: They're coming from China. They're coming, you know, and we
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 2: all went through the hell of, you know, getting a
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: shipment to the port and then it disappeared or, you know,
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: just crazy, crazy stuff. And so it kind of drove home,
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: I think, to people, look, we got to make some
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: of this stuff. We got to make ourselves.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: What are the things we should be making ourselves and
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: what should we be comfortable in the global economy?
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't, I don't, this is not, shouldn't be
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 2: a society, you know, I think, you know, again, it
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: is trying to achieve, achieve that, that, that balance. Isn't
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: that where, you know, during the, during the periods of
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: time when we've done, we've done the best, we've tried
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: to achieve some sort of a balance and the pendulum
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: has not gone too far either, either, either side.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: One of the, I have a column that I wrote
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: recently advocating for that. I actually think that the biggest
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: fix for our politics would be if we broke up
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: the two major parties and essentially had four major parties.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: And one of the states I think about the most
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: when I think about, you know, Michigan showed us a
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: pretty evenly divided democratic party and you could just sort
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: of see it, right? You sort of, what I guess
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: I would call a pro-business cultural liberal wing of the
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: party and a progressive little more socialist adjacent. And I
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: feel like on the Republican side, you have this sort
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: of free market conservative sort of small government where I
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: kind of put you in versus the sort of more
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: nativist nationalist, however you want to describe it, a little
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: more isolationist, you know, for those of us of a
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: certain age, more of the Buchanan point of view of politics.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: I see it in Ohio Republicans. I see that divide
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: a lot. Do you see it or do you just,
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: do you think you guys just paper over it better
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: than other state parties?
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: Well, look, I think there's some truth in what you're saying.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: You can divide it. But I think you always could,
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: any time in our history, you probably could take either
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 2: one of the major parties and divide them up into
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: different segments, whether it's two segments like you just did.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, well, no, I believe that a lot. Yeah, no, no, no, no.
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: In fact, the reason- Go ahead. Yeah, let me- Well,
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 2: the other thing I think, though, that's different here is
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: I think that everybody- has moved more towards, hey, we
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 2: have to make stuff here, if I could put it
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: that way. I think everybody- Yeah, on the economy, I
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: think that's right. So the guy that you're labeling on
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: the Republican Party as a free trade guy, Yeah, he
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 2: probably thinks she's still or she thinks she's still a
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: free trade person. But they've kind of seen what happened
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: during the pandemic when we literally couldn't get stuff here.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: And we had to go beg people and they held
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: us up and messed with us. So it's sort of,
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 2: you know, we've reset. This whole thing has been reset,
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 2: in my opinion. I like the two party system. I
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: think the two party system has served us by and
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: large very, very, very well in this country. And I
• 1:37:31
  Speaker 2: think once you start fragmenting it, I don't like what
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: I see in some other countries where they've, you know,
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: I just, this brings about stability. I do think that
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 2: the parties have pulled, to some extent, have pulled apart
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: a lot further, particularly the right wing and the left wing,
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: than we have. I mean, the first presidential election I
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: paid much attention to as a kid was John Kennedy's
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: and Richard Nixon. If you go back and look at
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: their positions.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: They weren't very divided.
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: They were not very far apart. So we were fighting.
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: We thought it was a big battle.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: But that was the Cold War.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's funny. Well, yes. Well, we
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: always have a war. We always have something, though.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: Sure. But I've come to the conclusion that the Cold
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: War era was an outlier in our politics because we were,
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: we kept our extremes at bay. And in fact, my
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: favorite examples are 64 and 72. The Republicans went too
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: far right, the country said, oh, no, you don't. The
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: Democrats went too far left and the country said, oh, no,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: you don't. Favoring two guys who were not overly popular,
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: Johnson and Nixon. Right. And they win these massive landslides
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: because of who they weren't, not necessarily because of who
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: they were. How do we know this? Because look what
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: happened to both of them within four years.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: So I look at that. And now I you know,
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: the the lack of of. of a country pointing nuclear
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: weapons at us, right? And us knowing it, you know,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: back then it sobered our politics. But let me throw
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: another thought at you. I agree, we've always had locally
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: branded versions of the Republican Party. You know, an Ohio
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: Republican was different than a Texas Republican. I can tell
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: you this, an Ohio Republican, you remember this in the 90s,
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: you'd more likely be pro-labor than a Texas Republican. who
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: would not be pro-Lake. So these distinctions really did exist.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: The problem is our conversation stopped being local and regional, right?
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: Our political conversation is all national now. And it's sort
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: of has forced this binary view of the two parties.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: And I miss the regional and local distinctions of the
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: two parties, right? A Georgia Democrat was different than a
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: New York Democrat. And that was okay. You expected Sam
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: Nunn and Mario Cuomo to maybe agree on civil rights,
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: but they didn't necessarily agree on national security or economic policy.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: And there was an acceptance of that. Now, and I
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: don't know whether you can blame the national media, the
• 1:40:00
  Speaker 1: social media nationalization. I've got theories, but I'm curious if
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: you feel as if that maybe that's, I think we
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: both agree there's always been distinctions. I think it's just
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: harder to be distinctive inside your own party these days.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: I think that's true. I mean, you know, the nationalization
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 2: of local races is huge. And, you know, you see it.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: I suppose we've always had it to some extent. I mean,
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: you look at the FDR landslides where I can show
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: you counties in Ohio that, you know, elected Democrats for
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: the first time in 32 or 36. And so you've
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: always had some nationalization of What I think is different
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: today is that that nationalization is every day in people's face. And,
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: you know, you cannot you cannot avoid it. And so,
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 2: you know, what is happening, people are seeing on whatever
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: cable they're watching or however they're getting they're getting their news.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: It dominates. It dominates so much more than it did
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: in the past. I don't know anything to do about it.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: It's just the way it is.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: Data centers. You don't have to worry about running for office.
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: We're watching this. I have my own theories of why
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: data centers are.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: So it's an organic issue. This is not an issue
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: either party tried to create. It's an issue that the
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 1: people forced upon the parties. And it reminds me, frankly,
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: of how the opioid crisis really sort of was an organic.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: This was the voters going, hey, are you paying attention
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: to this? And politicians were listening. What do you make
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: of it? And who's got the most work to do
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: here on this data center issue? And where do you
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: fall on it?
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I think people who have the most work to do,
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 2: the people who want to put in data centers, you know,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: they they have taken stuff for granted. And what you know,
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: what I tell people in Ohio, first of all, we
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: pulled back. We had an incentive on taxes break. We
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 2: pulled that back a number of a number of months ago.
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: Why did you do it just out of public pressure?
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: We did. I thought we'd need to take a deep
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 2: breath and kind of look at this a little bit, frankly.
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 2: And that's what we did. But look, we believe, I believe,
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: that data centers are helpful to our economy in Ohio.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: I also believe that the companies that have been pushing
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 2: the data centers have not been as mindful of the
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: local community as they should have been. And they're making
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 2: a lot of money. And frankly, they could have done
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 2: a lot better by the local community. On the other hand,
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: what I tell people or local communities is, if you're
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: negotiating this with a data center, you can get a
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 2: lot better deal than you have seen in the past.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 2: They will give you a good deal. In fact, what
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: we have is in Ohio examples of places where they
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: did that, did that a long time ago, got a
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 2: better deal. Do you think.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: Communities ought to get a piece of the IPOs and stuff?
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: Should they get ownership of the company? Should they get
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 1: a 1% stake?
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: No, not really. But I think the companies have the
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: ability to say, hey, we're coming in and we're what's
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: important to you. And, you know, so something we can
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: do with, with, uh, you know, what, what you're paying
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: and your utilities, is there something we can do in
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: regard to your schools? You know, companies have historically done this,
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: you know, mining companies, other companies that come into an area, they,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 2: they understand that they have to have that local community support.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: These companies have not had to do that in the past.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: Now they do. And I think they're more than perfectly
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: willing to, um, to, in fact, give that local community more. Look,
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: the other thing is the technology is better today than
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 2: it was initially. The water, you don't have to use
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: as much water. You can recycle a lot of this water.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 2: A lot of things. So, look, it's got to work
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 2: its way out. But when somebody comes up and is
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 2: talking about this, they hate these, but then they're using this.
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I mean, there's a correlation between- It
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: reminds me of the fight over nuclear power in the
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: 80s a little bit. I don't know if that gave
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: you flashbacks to that, right? Which we all want cheaper electricity,
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: but man, we don't want nuclear reactors in our backyard.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 2: Well, Chuck, you're going to see that more. I mean,
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 2: nuclear is the way we're going to have to go.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've seen what France has done, other countries
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: have done. These will become, in the next year or two,
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 2: very significant political issues. It's going to be important for
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 2: leaders to try to explain to people what the basic
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: facts are and be transparent about it as they go
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: through this. We're going to have to move to the
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: nuclear much more than we are. You're already seeing it.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: You're seeing companies investing a lot of money and trying
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: to develop this technology.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: Let me I'm going to I'm going to I'm going
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 1: to land this plane. You have a unique governor's race,
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: I assume, from your perspective, because can we quit now?
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: I do that.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: I do where you were going. Look, I know you
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 1: like Dr. Acton. You know, you know her. You consider her.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: I think probably you probably highly respect her. But she's
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: a Democrat. And I know you've endorsed the Republican Vivek Ramaswamy.
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 1: Is Ohio in good hands no matter what, in your opinion?
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: Well, look, I think this is truly Ohio's time. And
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: what I've tried to do, I'll answer it this way.
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: What I've tried to do and will continue to do
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: is talk about the things that I think are important.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: My lieutenant governor and I, Jim Trestle, on a nine
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: community trip, we've done six, I guess, of these where
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: we literally go out and talk to the leadership of
• 1:46:15
  Speaker 2: the local community. This is where Ohio is. This is
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 2: what we think matters. And our emphasis is this is
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: a red hot state. We're bringing companies in. It's our
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: time in history. I think it's the Midwest time. And
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: I think it's our time to lead them, lead the Midwest.
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 2: But the only way we can do that is if
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 2: we continue to invest in our own people. And that
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: is early childhood education, early childhood development. We put a
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: lot of foot. My wife, Fran is took the Dolly
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: Parton imagination library state statewide. We now are sending out
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: 430,000 books every single month. The kids are, We're doing
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: an eyesight program where we're making sure kids get the glasses.
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: These are basic fundamental things that will determine the future
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: of the state of Ohio. And so I look at
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: my job now is I'm not running again, but I'm
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: going to go out and continue to talk about whoever
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: the next governor is. You've got to keep doing some
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 2: of these things and you've got to keep investing in
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: infrastructure and you've got to continue to invest in our
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 2: own people. Leave nobody behind.
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: When you see the debates over COVID become part of
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: the race, do you take any of those attacks personally?
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do in this sense. And I've been very,
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: this is nothing new. I've been very, very plain. You know,
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: when people say that Acton did this or that and
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 2: closed this or closed that or made this decision, the
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: truth is I made the decision and the buck stops
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: with me. And that's what I say.
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: I've been saying that with five. I find the people
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: criticizing Fauci. I'm like, Fauci didn't do anything. The president
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: did these things. He had the power, right?
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: Look, when you run for office, you take the responsibility
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: of what happens in the decisions. And you can't say
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: later on, oh, that was my such and such director.
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 2: That was my such and such. I mean, Amy Atkin
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: gave me advice, but I also got advice. I was
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: on the phone every day talking to somebody and pulling
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: together as much in. as we could and made the decisions.
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 2: But no, the buck stops with me. And so- I
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 2: have done that in this campaign to at least try
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: to clarify that and say, no, it's my response. If
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: you don't like it, that's fine. And if you disagreed
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 2: with it, it was fine. But that was my decision,
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: not hers.
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: Does it surprise you Ohio's as close as it looks
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 1: like it's going to be that it's you think it's
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: back to purple state status and it just took a
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: vacation from being the swing state?
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, you know, everybody kind of
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: figured this was a. Ohio was a state for a long,
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: long time. It was the battleground state. Presidents were in
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: here literally every three days. I counted. I flew in
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: with Bush many, many times. And then we've had this
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: whole thing where we've had a switch. We've got counties.
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: along the Youngstown area, for example, that side of Ohio,
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 2: the Eastern side, I thought I would never see in
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: my lifetime a Republican elected to anything in Mahoney County
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: or Trumbull County.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: And- But your home area of Cincinnati, I never thought
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: would become Democratic, right? Like Hamilton is a longtime Republican struggle.
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you've got, you've, so, and the other thing,
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: the other thing that to me is interesting is your counties,
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 2: for example, your Republican counties, your rural Republican counties- used
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: to call them red, and they were 62% Republican. We
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: got some of them are 85% Republican. So we have
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: also segregated ourselves in a sense, unknowingly, I guess, where
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: we live. So the answer to your question is, I
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: don't know. This is a very, very close race for governor.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: I think it's going to stay close. I think it's
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: going to go right down the wire and We'll see.
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: And the Senate race, obviously the same. Well, I know
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: you're a Bengals fan more than a Browns fan, right?
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: So you didn't have to weigh in on the Browns
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: starting quarterback.
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: I heard enough about it from people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: People have different opinions about that.
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, I was just going to say, it is the
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: one thing unifying Democratic Browns fans and Republican Browns fans.
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: They're unified on this one. But let me ask you
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: a Bengals question. Like, every next year is supposed to
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: be Joe Burrow's year. Next year is supposed to be
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: Joe Burrow's year is next year.
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: This year. Okay. This year, this year, it's gotta be right.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 2: I think they made some major changes with defense and, uh,
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 2: you know, I think it's a, it's a much stronger
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: team and we'll see what we're fans, right? We always
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: are optimistic, but I, I, I think the Bengals are
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: going to do very well this year.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: Well, we, we, uh, The Hopium. Look, you've got the
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: new coaches in Pittsburgh and Baltimore. If there was ever
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: a chance to take advantage, right? This is the year.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: I have a lot of Joe Burrow rookie cards I'd
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 1: like to sell in my little sports card collection. So
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: I need him to do really well this year. So
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: who is your team? I'm a Packers fan.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: Wow. We actually went up there last year and saw
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: the Bengals play. I've always wanted to go up there.
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: It's a great place to see a game. It's a
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: great atmosphere.
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 1: It is. It was my son and I's one of our–
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: it's been the highlight so far of our father-son trips
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: over the years is our Lambeau trip. That's for sure.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 2: That's good.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: Governor, I appreciate the time.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Jeff.
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: And look, you've been in office a long time. No
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 1: matter what– no matter your politics, that's a devotion to
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: public service and– Thank you for it. Appreciate it.
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: All righty. It's time machine time. Boy, this is a
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: I had a lot of interesting choices, but boy, did
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: one stand out over all the others. The assassination that
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: gave us Teddy Roosevelt this week, 125 years ago. the
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: president of the United States was shot. And of the
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: four presidents who have been assassinated in American history, I
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: suspect this is the one most Americans know the least about. Lincoln,
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 1: Garfield got the Netflix treatment, so that's helped people. Obviously,
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: Lincoln and Kennedy. Those names these days immediately conjure up assassination.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: William McKinley?
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: Nah.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: And we keep taking away his mountain, right? Nobody knows
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 1: what to make of him anymore. We don't know much
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: about him. And his assassins, His assassin is even less
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 1: remembered and, frankly, probably one that should be more remembered.
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: Leon Zolgosz. OK, it's CZ, but it's a sort of
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: silent C there. If you said it in a Polish dialect,
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: it would be Zolgosz. But for this, it's going to
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: be Zolgosz. He was a 28-year-old former factory worker, the
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: son of Polish immigrants. He was increasingly feeling alienated from
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: American society. He had been attracted to anarchism, convinced that
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: enormous concentrations of wealth and political power had made the
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: system fundamentally unjust. So on September 6, 1901, he walks
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: into the Temple of Music at the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo,
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: New York, stood in a receiving line to meet President McKinley.
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: He concealed a revolver beneath a handkerchief wrapped around his hand.
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: And he shot McKinley twice. McKinley would die eight days later.
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt became president. And that's where this story gets
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 1: much more interesting than simply another presidential assassination. Because Zolgash
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: wanted to strike a blow against concentrated power. But instead,
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: he accidentally put Theodore Roosevelt in the White House. And
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt would spend much of his presidency using the
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: federal government to push back against concentrated private economic power.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, it bears the question, did the assassin accidentally
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: help produce some version of the political change he wanted?
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: It's an uncomfortable question, but I think it's worth asking,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: especially now, because the America of 1901 feels surprisingly recognizable.
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 1: In America in 1901, technology is transforming the economy. There
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: are enormous fortunes that are being created. The men of
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: the family names are Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan, Vanderbilt. Corporate consolidation
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: is producing businesses on a scale that Americans have never experienced.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 1: Workers are watching extraordinarily wealth accumulate at the top, while
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: many of them work long hours in dangerous conditions for
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: relatively little money. Immigration is transforming American cities. Again, I'm
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: describing America 1901, not America 2026. Organized labor is growing.
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: Socialism is growing. Populism is growing. Again, America, 1901. And
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: on the farthest edge of all of this is this
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: anarchist movement. And it's not simply taking place just in America.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: It's been happening around the world. And that's important because
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 1: McKinley's assassination wasn't an isolated American event. It was part
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 1: of an international wave of political violence in about a
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: 10-year period. In 1894, an anarchist assassinated the president of France.
• 1:55:38
  Speaker 1: In 1897, the Spanish prime minister was assassinated. 1898, Empress
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth of Austria is stabbed to death by an anarchist.
• 1:55:48
  Speaker 1: And in 1900, King Umberto I of Italy is assassinated.
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: And then in 1901, the president of the United States.
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 1: Zolgash had followed these events. The assassination of King Umberto
• 1:56:01
  Speaker 1: appears to have particularly fascinated him. And there's one more
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: person we need to introduce you here when we tell
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: the story about McKinley. Emma Goldman. Goldman isn't some incidental
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: character who happened to give a speech that Zolgash attended.
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: She is probably at the time the most famous anarchist
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: in America. An anarchist influencer, if you will. Russian-born immigrant,
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: brilliant speaker, a labor radical, an advocate for women's independence,
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: free speech, birth control, and free love. And she believes
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: the existing political and economic order is fundamentally unjust. She's
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: also not squeamish about revolutionary violence. Nine years earlier, during
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: the Homestead Labor conflict, Goldman's lover and political partner, Alexander Berkman,
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: tried to assassinate the industrialist Henry Clay Frick. In fact,
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 1: Berkman shoots Frick, stabs him, but Frick survives. Berkman goes
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: to prison and Goldman had helped plan the attempt. So
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: this isn't like Emma Goldman's not Jodie Foster to John
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: Hinckley here. This is an actual intellectual and political connection
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 1: between Goldman and the world that Zolgash has entered. In
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 1: May of 1901, Zolgash hears Goldman speak. She talks about anarchism,
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: political violence, and martyrdom. Zolgash later says her words set
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: me on fire. But this distinction matters. Goldman did not
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 1: tell Zolgash to go kill William McKinley. In fact, Zolgash
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 1: himself said she didn't. Investigators never were able to establish
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: that she knew about the plan itself. In fact, other
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 1: anarchists found Zolgosz so strange that some of them suspected
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: he was a plant, that he was almost too committed
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: to the movement. After McKinley is shot, Goldman is arrested.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: She's interrogated. Authorities really want to establish a connection, and
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: they just can't. She isn't charged. But Goldman then does
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 1: something that horrifies much of America. she refuses to treat
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: Zolgash simply as some inexplicable monster. She argues that if
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 1: society wanted to understand why assassins exist, society ought to
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: examine the conditions that produce people willing to become assassins.
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: Kind of reminds you of that quote that Abdul Al-Sayed
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: has since had to apologize for, that hurt people hurt people. Now,
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: that doesn't excuse the assassin. but it does try to
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 1: explain him. And that's an argument we're still having today,
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: aren't we? When does explaining radicalization become excusing radicalization? They're
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: not necessarily the same thing. And there's a reason I
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: think this period is worth revisiting, though, right now. Like
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: I said, 1901 is not 2026, but boy, is the
• 1:58:48
  Speaker 1: rhyme hard to miss, right? It's another period of extraordinary
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 1: technological change, another period of enormous fortunes being created very quickly,
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: another argument over whether the economic system is distributing the
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: benefits of this prosperity fairly. We have distrust of institutions,
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 1: populist movements on the left and right, socialism gaining attention
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: among young Americans, nationalism growing, and increasing political violence. More
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: people concluding that the system itself just simply rigged. This
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: is the dangerous part that we're living in at the moment.
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: When enough people conclude that the normal politics is incapable
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 1: of solving their problems, alternatives that once looked ridiculous begin
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: looking less ridiculous. And for a very small number of people,
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: violence begins looking like politics by another means. And that's
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: the world Leon Zolgash was living in. And the setting
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 1: for the assassination almost couldn't have been more perfect. The
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 1: Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo. This gigantic celebration of America's revival
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: and arrival. We are just beginning to be the world's
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: economic superpower. There are electric lights everywhere. There's new technology.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: Industry is showing off its new stuff. Architecture. This is
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 1: like a World's Fair and the Consumer Electronics Show all
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: wrapped up into one thing. where America is showing off
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 1: the future. McKinley himself embodies the confidence of this moment.
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: He had just won reelection. And remember, we hadn't had
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: a real, we hadn't, a president had won reelection since Grant,
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: when McKinley wins reelection, by the way. The economy has
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: recovered from the depression of the 1890s. Back-to-back elections, by
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: the way. I know Grover Cleveland won, you know. So
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: I'm just quickly responding to those of you muttering about that.
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: But let me go back to where we are in
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: that moment. America had just won the Spanish-American War. Puerto
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: Rico was under American control. Hawaii's been annexed. The Philippines
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: are under American rule after a brutal war that is
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: still underway at the time. But the United States is
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 1: clearly emerging as a world power. And McKinley is the
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: president of this world power. The 20th century is going
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: to be the American century. And we had two Americas, though,
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 1: at the time. There's one America. looks around Buffalo and
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: sees progress. Another looks at essentially the same country and
• 2:00:59
  Speaker 1: sees exploitation. So on September 6th, those two Americas meet
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: in a receiving line inside the Temple of Music. McKinley
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: likes actually meeting people. Presidential security is nothing like it
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: is today. The Secret Service exists, but protecting the president
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: isn't yet the central mission. McKinley stands there shaking hands,
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 1: and as Zolgosh gets closer, he has a. 32 caliber
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: revolver hidden beneath a handkerchief wrapped around his right hand.
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 1: president reaches for them. Zolgosz fires twice. The first bullet
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: grazes McKinley and ends up caught in his clothing, but
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: the second enters his abdomen. And then here's where the
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: setting of the assassination becomes almost painfully ironic. This is
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 1: a World's Fair celebrating technological progress. Thomas Edison's company is there.
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 1: They've got their own booth, essentially. Edison's cameras are filming
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: the exposition. X-rays themselves had been discovered only six years earlier.
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: And after McKinley is shot, there's an X-ray machine that
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: is offered to McKinley's doctors to help locate the bullet.
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: And the doctors choose not to use it. They're uncertain
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: about what this new technology might do to the president.
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: So think about that scene. The president of the United
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: States is lying wounded inside one of the great celebrations
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: of a technological future. There's an actual technology that exists
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 1: that might allow doctors to see inside his body. And
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: medicine isn't yet comfortable enough with the future to use it. Now, initially,
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: McKinley looks like he's going to survive. But then infection
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 1: and gangrene set in, and on September 14th, McKinley dies.
• 2:02:35
  Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt is president. And before we get to Roosevelt,
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 1: I can't resist one of the strangest pieces of presidential
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: assassination trivia in American history. Robert Todd Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln's son.
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: He somehow becomes connected to three presidential assassinations. Remember, he
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: is summoned to his father's deathbed after Lincoln is shot
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: in 1865.
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: In 1881, Robert.
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 1: Is walking with James Garfield. He's James Garfield's Secretary of War,
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 1: and he's with Garfield at the Washington train station when
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 1: Garfield is shot. And then in 1901, Robert Todd Lincoln
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: is in Buffalo attending that fair when McKinley is shot.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: Three assassinated presidents, and Robert Todd Lincoln is somehow nearby
• 2:03:18
  Speaker 1: all three times. At some point, you'd think Robert Todd
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: Lincoln simply stopped accepting invitations involving presidents, and he did, actually.
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: And he did finally show up. He was afraid when
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: they unveiled his dad's memorial on the mall, he almost
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 1: didn't come because he was afraid of standing next to
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 1: a living president. But let's talk about the political consequence.
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 1: The Republican establishment had not put Teddy Roosevelt into the
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: vice presidency because they wanted him to eventually run the country.
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 1: It was actually the opposite. It was kind of like
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 1: what Garfield had with Chester Arthur. Roosevelt had been governor
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 1: of New York. He was energetic, independent, reform minded. And
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: he was a gigantic pain in the ass to the
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 1: Republican machine in New York. So political bosses saw the
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 1: vice presidency as a convenient place to stash Roosevelt to
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: keep him from doing anything. Kick him upstairs, essentially. Neutralize him.
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: The vice presidency at the time was seen as a
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 1: total dead end. Mark Hanna, McKinley's closest political advisor, Karl
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: Rove's political hero, and one of the most powerful Republicans
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: in the country, he actually saw the danger. And in fact,
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: at the Republican convention in 1900, Hanna warns, Don't any
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: of you realize there's only one life between the madman
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: and the presidency? That's what he called Roosevelt. Thought he
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 1: was a madman.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 2: One life?
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: Well, then Leon Zolgosz fires his gun. McKinley dies. And
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: Hannah reportedly reacts, now look, the damn cowboy is president
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 1: of the United States. Now, Teddy Roosevelt is 42 when
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 1: he takes the oath, still the youngest person ever to
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: become president. And American politics changes dramatically. Now, Roosevelt despises
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: anarchism and he wants it crushed, but he also understands
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: something about the conditions producing this political radicalism. You can't
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: simply tell millions of people the system is working when
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 1: they don't believe it's working for them. So Roosevelt pushes
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 1: a different idea of government, the square deal. Federal government
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 1: should act as a referee between enormous corporations, workers, and
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 1: the public. He goes after those trusts, not all of them.
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 1: He doesn't try to destroy big business, but he argues
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: that concentrated economic power has to answer to the public interest.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 1: So he brings in, the first one is the Northern
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 1: Securities case. He pushes railroad regulation. Consumer protections eventually follow.
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: He expands conservation dramatically. And perhaps most importantly, he changes
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 1: the expectation of what a president is supposed to do. Really,
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: before Teddy, the president is simply the chief administrator of
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: the federal government. The president can use the office as
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 1: a national platform to shape the economic and political system.
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 1: A bully pulpit, right? That's the big change that's happened.
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: It's one Leon Zolgosz certainly didn't intend. Which brings us
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: to an uncomfortable question. Can an assassination work? I don't
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: mean morally. There's no moral defense to political assassination. But historically,
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: does killing a political leader actually change the trajectory of
• 2:06:12
  Speaker 1: the country in a direction the assassin wants? We don't
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: like asking the question because we don't want to know
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: the answer, but history is going to force us to.
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 1: Think about John Wilkes Booth. Booth wants to avenge the Confederacy.
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: He kills Lincoln. Confederacy doesn't return. Slavery isn't restored. But
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: Andrew Johnson becomes president. And Reconstruction basically ends. And Johnson
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: fights congressional Republicans. And the federal commitment to protecting the
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: political rights of newly freed Black Americans becomes contested immediately.
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: White supremacist governments regain power across the South. Jim Crow follows.
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: Country spends another century fighting over the meaning of citizenship
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 1: and racial equality. Would all of that have happened if
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: Lincoln lived? We don't know. Anybody who tells you they
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: do know is guessing. But it's equally silly to pretend
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 1: Booth's bullet didn't change what came next. Kennedy's assassination obviously
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: changes the political timeline as well. Lyndon Johnson inherits the presidency.
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: All these things happen after, you know, Great Society of Vietnam,
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: voting rights, civil rights. We don't know what the timeline
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: looks like if Kennedy lives. But succession matters. Then there's
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: Charles Gatteau. He assassinates Garfield in 81. Gatteau is a
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 1: disgruntled office seeker consumed by the patronage system. Garfield dies.
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 1: Chester Arthur becomes president. The political shock helps produce the
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: biggest civil service reform we ever had until Trump came
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 1: in to destroy it with Doge. That assassination generates momentum
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 1: to dismantle the very patronage system that helped produce Coteau's grievance.
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: So history has a very dark sense of irony. Now
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: look at McKinley. Zolgosz wants to attack a system he
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 1: sees as dominated by powerful men and concentrated wealth. He
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 1: kills McKinley. Teddy Roosevelt becomes president. The federal government becomes
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 1: more willing to regulate corporate power. Progressivism accelerates. The presidency
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 1: becomes a more powerful instrument for reform. So did Zolgosz win? No,
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 1: he didn't win. Anarchism does not take over America. Quite
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: the opposite. In fact, Zolgash is put on trial nine
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 1: days after McKinley dies. Jury takes about a half an
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: hour to convict him. On October 29th, less than seven
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 1: weeks after McKinley's death, New York executes him in an
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 1: electric chair. And then the political system turns on the
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: anarchist movement. In 1903, Congress passes the Anarchist Exclusion Act,
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: allowing the federal government to bar immigrants based on political beliefs.
• 2:08:42
  Speaker 1: Emma Goldman remains a target of the government for years.
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 1: By the way, any of this sounding familiar to you folks?
• 2:08:49
  Speaker 1: If it doesn't, then you're not paying enough attention. Anyway,
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 1: in 1919, she's deported from the United States. So America's
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: response to the assassination isn't simply reform. It's reform and repression.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: Roosevelt responds to some of the economic conditions feeding radicalism.
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 1: And then the government also tries to crush the radical
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 1: movement itself. Both things can be true. There's another reason
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 1: McKinley's assassination matters so much. Look at what Teddy Roosevelt
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: says afterwards. He doesn't simply blame Leon Zolgash. Roosevelt talks
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: about the environment that produces the violence. Demagogue, sensationalist rhetoric,
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: people encouraging envy, hatred, and resentment. You listen to that
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: argument in 1901, and it sounds remarkably contemporary. Political violence
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 1: usually doesn't emerge from nowhere. It grows in an environment.
• 2:09:38
  Speaker 1: There can be economic anger, political alienation, a belief that
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 1: institutions are corrupt, then somebody decides normal politics isn't enough
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 1: and a broken person, one broken person can then suddenly act.
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 1: And this is where the international part of this matters.
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: The forces producing Zolgash weren't confined to Buffalo. Industrial capitalism
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 1: was transforming societies everywhere. Workers were organizing, socialist parties were growing,
• 2:10:04
  Speaker 1: anarchists were organizing, nationalist movements were growing, old monarchies were
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: under pressure. 16 years after McKinley is shot, Russia has
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 1: a revolution. The czar is gone. The Bolsheviks eventually take power. Now,
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 1: America avoids that revolution. Instead, America gets Teddy Roosevelt and
• 2:10:21
  Speaker 1: Wilsonian progressivism. Eventually, FDR and the New Deal. Not quite
• 2:10:27
  Speaker 1: a straight line. And I'm not fully suggesting that Teddy
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 1: Roosevelt prevented an American style, a Russian Revolution-like moment here
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: in America. But those policies helped prevent it. There is
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: a recurring American pattern here. When enough people begin questioning
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 1: the legitimacy of an economic system, American politics has periodically
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 1: responded by reforming the system rather than replacing it. So
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 1: TR regulates capitalism. FDR does it in a much larger
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 1: scale 30 years later, but he defends capitalism and regulates it.
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: Both in different ways make the argument that capitalism has
• 2:11:04
  Speaker 1: to be restrained enough, regulated enough, and broadly prosperous enough
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 1: for Americans to continue to believe in it. So we
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 1: usually adapt. So that's to me what makes September 6,
• 2:11:18
  Speaker 1: 1901 such an incredibly important hinge moment. The Pan-American Exposition
• 2:11:23
  Speaker 1: is celebrating America's future, electricity, technology, industry, and global power.
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: And standing inside that celebration is a young man who
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: believes the future belongs to everybody except people like him.
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: So he shoots the president and he creates the Teddy
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: Roosevelt presidency. The assassin who wants to strike a blow
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: against concentrated power helps put into office the president who
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 1: makes challenging concentrated corporate power part of our national political agenda.
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 1: I'm not trying to defend this assassination. Jesus, no. Please, people,
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: don't take this out of context. But it's a warning
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: about how unpredictable political violence is. Once you introduce violence
• 2:11:59
  Speaker 1: into politics, you don't control what happens next. Zolgosz didn't.
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: Booth didn't. Ditto didn't. Neither did Oswald. It changes history.
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: but they don't get to choose exactly how it gets changed.
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: And as we live through another period of extraordinary wealth creation,
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 1: technological disruption, distrust of institutions, political anger, let's remember this.
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: America in 1901, not quite America in 2026, but boy,
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 1: does it rhyme. So perhaps the question isn't whether history
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: is repeating itself. The better question is whether our political
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 1: system is still capable of doing what it has done before.
• 2:12:36
  Speaker 1: recognize the moment, and respond to these legitimate grievances. Reform
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 1: these institutions before enough people decide to truly just light
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 1: them on fire. 125 years ago this week, one deeply
• 2:12:50
  Speaker 1: alienated young man in Buffalo decided to take matters into
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: his own hands. The America he thought he was attacking
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: changed dramatically because of what he did. It's an uncomfortable truth.
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 1: which is why it's a history lesson that we sometimes
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 1: fast forward through too quickly when we teach about America
• 2:13:11
  Speaker 1: at the turn of the century. So there you go.
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 1: There's your history lesson for the week. This episode of
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 1: the Chuck Todd cast is brought to you by FanDuel
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 1: baseball fans. Think you know who's hitting a homer today? Well,
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: FanDuel is giving you a free chance to call your
• 2:13:28
  Speaker 1: shot with daily dares. Joining the action is easy. You
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 1: just make your free pick on who's hitting a home
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 1: run in their game. And if you're right, you'll get
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 1: a profit boost to use on your next bet for
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: a chance at extra winnings. You've got nothing to lose
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 1: and you get a lot to gain. And don't forget,
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 1: you can make A free pick every day during the
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 1: MLB season. It's just another reason why FanDuel is the
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 1: home for home runs. So are you ready to play
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 1: your game today? Join all the action at FanDuel.com. That's
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: FanDuel.com to play daily dingers and make your free pick
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 1: on who's hitting a homer. Play ball and swing for
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: the fences on FanDuel, an official partner of the MLB.
• 2:14:06
  Speaker 1: 21 plus in select states. for Kansas and affiliation with
• 2:14:10
  Speaker 1: the Kansas Star Casino. It's 18 plus in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming.
• 2:14:14
  Speaker 1: If you have a gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: or call 1-888-789-7777. You can also visit ccpg.org slash chat
• 2:14:28
  Speaker 1: in Connecticut. You can visit the mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland for help.
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 1: You can visit gamblinghelplinema.org You can call 800-327-5050 in Massachusetts.
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 1: You can call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY, or you can simply text HOPE-NY-NEW-YORK
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 1: in order to get some help with any gambling concerns. Finally,
• 2:14:54
  Speaker 1: you can also call 1-877-770-7867 if you're in Louisiana.
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 1: First question comes from Johnny says, greetings from Texas's fourth
• 2:15:07
  Speaker 1: congressional district. He says, Hey, I've been following since your
• 2:15:09
  Speaker 1: MTP days, hoping to get closer to the five timer status. Uh,
• 2:15:13
  Speaker 1: what do you make of James Tallarico's chances in Texas,
• 2:15:15
  Speaker 1: especially given the encouraging recent polls, but your warnings about
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 1: putting too much stock in August numbers, even if it
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 1: doesn't win, could a competitive race force Republicans spend money
• 2:15:23
  Speaker 1: in Texas? They'd rather use elsewhere. Love the show, John. Well, look, um,
• 2:15:27
  Speaker 1: I've actually been having an interesting debate with an old
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 1: colleague of mine, uh, um, And I'm going to leave
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 1: his name out of it because I think he's got
• 2:15:35
  Speaker 1: clients that he doesn't need to know that they're talking
• 2:15:39
  Speaker 1: with me sometimes. But we were debating this because I
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 1: was asked an interesting question at an event on Friday night.
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 1: For each party, what's their nightmare state? What's the state
• 2:15:56
  Speaker 1: keeping them up? And the two states I picked... for
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 1: the Republicans, Iowa, and for the Democrats, Michigan. And my
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 1: argument was, in some ways, like the entire, you know,
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 1: the state of Iowa contains, you know, every issue that
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 1: Republicans are dealing with. And they have, you know, there's
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 1: three competitive House seats, competitive Senate race, governor's race that
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 1: the party is more likely to lose than win. And
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 1: so that it's just all self-contained. And then for the Republicans, Michigan,
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 1: because If the Democrats can't win the Michigan Senate race,
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 1: then their cleanest path to the Senate majority becomes a
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 1: lot harder, right? The cleanest path, if they hold Michigan,
• 2:16:39
  Speaker 1: is Maine, North Carolina, Ohio, and Alaska. You know, it's
• 2:16:45
  Speaker 1: light red states they have to win. They're not having
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 1: to win dark red states. But if Michigan flips, then
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 1: they need a fifth Republican flip. And then that's when
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 1: you start looking at Texas, Iowa, Kansas, South Dakota, Nebraska. Right.
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 1: You're in this South Carolina. You're in this another level where, boy,
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 1: it's been decades, you know, and that's why I think
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 1: of all those when you're thinking about what's the fifth.
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: I lean more towards Iowa. My old colleague leans more
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 1: towards Texas. And that's the question. You know, there's been
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 1: a one common denominator. And like I said, I think
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 1: August polling. Be careful. Second. Yeah. I think Talarico needs
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 1: to make 48 or 49 a winning number. I don't
• 2:17:31
  Speaker 1: know if 50 is possible. And if you've noticed in
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 1: a lot of the polling, his number is fairly consistent.
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 1: The number that moves more is Paxton's number, which actually
• 2:17:41
  Speaker 1: makes sense. I think people are trying to decide. And
• 2:17:44
  Speaker 1: I think a large chunk of that, my guess is, well,
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: you're going to hear a number a lot that something
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 1: like two-thirds of undecideds in the Texas Senate race are
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 1: voting Republican on House races. That's my guess, right? I'm
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: not saying I need to see some of those crosstabs,
• 2:18:01
  Speaker 1: but it wouldn't surprise me if you throw a generic
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 1: ballot in there that you would see that. And the
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: question is, how many of those folks Decide to vote
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 1: third party, you know, just just a third candidate on
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 1: the ticket just to just so they're not going to
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: vote for a Democrat, but they're not going to get
• 2:18:17
  Speaker 1: Paxton their vote. How many of them skip the race altogether?
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 1: I know this and I think one of the strategies,
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 1: if I were Tallarico, would be to try to raise
• 2:18:29
  Speaker 1: awareness of other candidates on the ballot. So I might,
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: if I were the Tallarico campaign, be trying to raise
• 2:18:36
  Speaker 1: the name recognition and the name ID of Ted Brown.
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 1: You know, when you look at how John Tester won
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 1: two of his three races, he won it with less
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 1: than 50 percent in Montana, thanks to a libertarian overperforming.
• 2:18:47
  Speaker 1: I think that that's because, look, Paxton, you know, if
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: this becomes a turnout contest, he can bring, you know,
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 1: and Trump. And this gets it to why I think that, like,
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: Michigan is such a headache for the for the for
• 2:19:02
  Speaker 1: the Democrats now, because look, Michael Watley can't bring Trump
• 2:19:05
  Speaker 1: to North Carolina. That will do more damage. I think
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 1: increasingly that might be the case for Husted in Ohio.
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I'd bring Trump into Ohio right now.
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 1: It might do more damage. Definitely, and Trump's too lazy
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 1: to fly all the way out to Alaska, and certainly
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 1: Susan Collins isn't bringing him in, right? But when you
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 1: get to that next tranche of Senate races, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Texas,
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 1: South Dakota. And I'm probably being generous by including some
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 1: of these Mississippi, South Carolina. These are all places where
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 1: the Republican candidate can bring Trump in, in certain parts
• 2:19:41
  Speaker 1: of the state. And it's a net plus, right? And
• 2:19:47
  Speaker 1: that's where I think there's some vulnerability. So look, I
• 2:19:50
  Speaker 1: think I go back to the conversation I was having
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: with my old colleague, He thinks Tallarico has a better
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 1: chance than Josh Turek. And I still slightly lean towards Iowa.
• 2:20:01
  Speaker 1: And I think part of it is the trickle-down effect.
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 1: You've got Greg Abbott, who's got an enormous amount of money.
• 2:20:07
  Speaker 1: That's only going to help. And he's running scared. And
• 2:20:12
  Speaker 1: then you have the– it's the Democratic candidate in Iowa
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 1: that's stronger. And that could have a trickle-down effect that
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 1: helps Turek there. So– That's why I slightly lean Iowa
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 1: over Texas as the as the next most viable if
• 2:20:26
  Speaker 1: the Democrats are looking for a fifth Republican seat to flip.
• 2:20:29
  Speaker 1: But they're both at this point, they're both in they're
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 1: in a similar category. And Texas is just so expensive.
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 1: And like I said, Talerica still got more work to do.
• 2:20:37
  Speaker 1: But I think he needs I think a a sort
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 1: of secondary strategy would be to raise the name name
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 1: ID of of one of the third party candidates, namely
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 1: the libertarian.
• 2:20:49
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 1: Next question. Comes from Christine. She's writing from Colorado's 4th
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 1: Congressional District. I believe that's Greeley, Colorado, if I got
• 2:20:58
  Speaker 1: that right. First time question asker and Wisconsin native. So
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 1: go pack, go. Right on. What are your thoughts on
• 2:21:03
  Speaker 1: Project 2025? Is it truly a threat? And how closely
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 1: is the current administration following its blueprint? And if it
• 2:21:09
  Speaker 1: is having a real impact, why aren't Democratic leaders talking
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 1: about it more? Or are they and we aren't seeing it? Well,
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 1: I think people have just stopped talking about what they're
• 2:21:20
  Speaker 1: doing as Project 2025. I mean, the fact is, if
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: you go back and read it, they're implementing what they said. But,
• 2:21:28
  Speaker 1: you know, I think the question is, is it still
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 1: worth attacking as one project or do you need to
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 1: go and deal with the individual issues, right? Like everything
• 2:21:38
  Speaker 1: they're doing with the FCC was outlined in their chapters
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: in that, right? Everything they're doing on immigration was outlined
• 2:21:43
  Speaker 1: in that. So, I think you're asking why we don't
• 2:21:47
  Speaker 1: hear about it enough. I just think it's more effective
• 2:21:55
  Speaker 1: to talk about a policy they're messing with in the
• 2:21:58
  Speaker 1: moment than it is to talk about a blueprint that
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 1: was written. And so I just think it's just because
• 2:22:05
  Speaker 1: it's now just too far in the past. And we're
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 1: in 2026, right? I think in politics, you don't want
• 2:22:12
  Speaker 1: to be If you're talking about the past, you're not
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 1: talking about what voters care about. Now, I think the
• 2:22:19
  Speaker 1: real question is, what do you know about Project 2029?
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 1: That's what the folks at the Center for American Progress,
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 1: which is a progressive sort of more of a– they're
• 2:22:31
  Speaker 1: pro-capitalists over there at the Center for American Progress, I think.
• 2:22:34
  Speaker 1: But it sort of– maybe you would say they advocate
• 2:22:38
  Speaker 1: for progressive capitalism. But they're trying to come up with
• 2:22:42
  Speaker 1: a Project 2029. And I think the question is, I
• 2:22:47
  Speaker 1: think there's going to be a lot of voters that
• 2:22:49
  Speaker 1: would like to see something like that. I go back.
• 2:22:52
  Speaker 1: I think Project 2025, while it outraged the left, I
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 1: think it sent a message to independents of competency of
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: a plan. And so I think at this point, Democrats
• 2:23:03
  Speaker 1: would be smarter to emulate it than sort of relitigate it.
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 1: Eric from Seattle-ish. I love this Seattle-ish Washington first district.
• 2:23:16
  Speaker 1: I know what you mean. You're sort of Seattle adjacent. Anyway,
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 1: long time listener, first time question asker. I appreciate how
• 2:23:24
  Speaker 1: you blend my two favorite subjects, politics and history. Context
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 1: is everything in your show is one of the few
• 2:23:29
  Speaker 1: places I consistently find it. That is the type of
• 2:23:32
  Speaker 1: compliment I would like to put like on a movie poster.
• 2:23:34
  Speaker 1: So thank you. Six months ago, action against Cuba seemed imminent.
• 2:23:38
  Speaker 1: Do you think The Trump administration still plans to act
• 2:23:40
  Speaker 1: or is the conflict with Iran sideline those plans? And
• 2:23:43
  Speaker 1: is Cuba ultimately more of a Rubio priority than a
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 1: Trump one? Thanks. Um, the answer is yes, it's more
• 2:23:49
  Speaker 1: of a Rubio priority. Uh, yes, obviously we've, we've, we've been, um, uh, the,
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 1: the inability to, uh, execute this Iran war is a
• 2:24:03
  Speaker 1: giant problem. And, uh, That has certainly weakened our resources.
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, go back to the beginning of what I
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 1: talked about. We don't have resources in other hemispheres right
• 2:24:14
  Speaker 1: now because of this. So look, what they've done is
• 2:24:18
  Speaker 1: they're doing full, it's all economic embargo with Cuba. I
• 2:24:21
  Speaker 1: think they're hoping to do more of a Venezuela type
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 1: situation there. But it's funny you bring up Rubio. Yes,
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 1: this is more of a Rubio project, but I still,
• 2:24:30
  Speaker 1: and I brought it up the other day. I think
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 1: one of the most remarkable things is how detached Rubio
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 1: has made himself from the Iran war. It's remarkable that
• 2:24:39
  Speaker 1: the sitting secretary of state basically has, like, done this
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 1: with Iran. Like, hey, man, that's your problem, Trump. That's
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 1: your problem, Vance. That's your problem, Pete. Like, look, he's
• 2:24:50
  Speaker 1: certainly not uninvolved, but he goes– I feel like he
• 2:24:54
  Speaker 1: goes out of his way to disappear into the bushes. And, yes,
• 2:25:01
  Speaker 1: I think at this point, though, the Cuba– we'll see.
• 2:25:05
  Speaker 1: You know, I– Trump's having so much, it's so bad
• 2:25:08
  Speaker 1: for him right now. And if the, you know, Cuba
• 2:25:10
  Speaker 1: is one of those stories that if the midterms go
• 2:25:12
  Speaker 1: super badly, I could see Trump seeing it as a
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 1: way to change the subject. You know, instead of the
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 1: increasingly lame duck Trump, he gets to triumphantly get Cuba
• 2:25:23
  Speaker 1: and he's able to say, I'm no lame duck. I just,
• 2:25:27
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't think this story is done, but
• 2:25:29
  Speaker 1: I certainly think it's delayed because of, obviously, because of
• 2:25:33
  Speaker 1: how poorly the Iran war is going. Uh, next question. Hey, Chuck, uh,
• 2:25:38
  Speaker 1: Tyler H from Michigan's fifth congressional district here. Since the
• 2:25:41
  Speaker 1: attorney general of the United States is supposed to be
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 1: the people's attorney, why not make that an elected position?
• 2:25:46
  Speaker 1: What would be the pros and cons? Thanks so much.
• 2:25:48
  Speaker 1: Love the show. Huh?
• 2:25:51
  Speaker 2: Huh?
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 1: Huh?
• 2:25:52
  Speaker 2: Huh?
• 2:25:53
  Speaker 1: Huh? Huh? Well, I, I might like an elected attorney
• 2:26:00
  Speaker 1: general better than what we have. Um, Gosh, do we
• 2:26:05
  Speaker 1: want a billion dollar race for the rule of law?
• 2:26:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:26:13
  Speaker 1: Does it get consumed by social policy too much?
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 1: Does it just you know, what is your what are
• 2:26:20
  Speaker 1: you going to do about youth sports and trans kids
• 2:26:23
  Speaker 1: and youth sports? Right. That that's the entire debate. I guess,
• 2:26:27
  Speaker 1: you know. I want to be against this idea, and
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not. I do think this post has just been
• 2:26:39
  Speaker 1: completely delegitimized by Trump, and it is going to take,
• 2:26:43
  Speaker 1: and maybe it would take the American voter. You know,
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 1: we got rid of legislatures electing senators because we thought
• 2:26:53
  Speaker 1: it corrupted the process. Maybe this is a better answer.
• 2:26:58
  Speaker 1: I want to be.
• 2:27:00
  Speaker 1: I want to be the conservative constitutionalist here and say, oh,
• 2:27:04
  Speaker 1: come on, that's crazy, Tyler. And yet, maybe it's exactly,
• 2:27:12
  Speaker 1: it's about the, maybe it's the, you know, I've wanted
• 2:27:15
  Speaker 1: to come up with, well, do we change how the
• 2:27:18
  Speaker 1: appointment process works? Do you let Congress appoint? And you
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 1: know what? Maybe just let the people decide who should
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 1: be in charge of the rule of law here. I
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: will say this. If you're going to do it, I
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 1: would put the election in the midterm year. So I
• 2:27:35
  Speaker 1: don't think you ever want the presidency and attorney general
• 2:27:38
  Speaker 1: in the same election. I guess the question is, if
• 2:27:41
  Speaker 1: you're going to put that up for election, then what
• 2:27:43
  Speaker 1: else in the cabinet do you put up for election?
• 2:27:46
  Speaker 1: I probably would argue for nothing else. Rule of law,
• 2:27:50
  Speaker 1: I could, you know, look, we elect all these other states'
• 2:27:52
  Speaker 1: attorneys general. So I don't think there's anything abnormal about it.
• 2:27:57
  Speaker 1: But I wouldn't want to put the treasury secretary, Pentagon, state,
• 2:28:01
  Speaker 1: that to me, I'd like to keep in the hands
• 2:28:03
  Speaker 1: of the presidency. But I could, I could, he has
• 2:28:07
  Speaker 1: abused and he has destroyed the credibility of the justice
• 2:28:10
  Speaker 1: departments to the point that I actually think it's, this
• 2:28:15
  Speaker 1: is probably the best, this might be the best answer
• 2:28:18
  Speaker 1: we could come up with. Let's add it to our
• 2:28:23
  Speaker 1: reform agenda. So we're expanding the house. We're doing four parties.
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 1: And we're going to elect our attorney general. At some point,
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 1: we're going to have the Chuck Todd cast series of
• 2:28:33
  Speaker 1: constitutional reforms and we will we will unveil them. And
• 2:28:39
  Speaker 1: who knows, maybe we can get a create a movement
• 2:28:41
  Speaker 1: out of it or something.
• 2:28:42
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:28:43
  Speaker 1: Last question for the night for the episode. Hey, Chuck,
• 2:28:45
  Speaker 1: Chris from Jersey City here. This is first time, long time.
• 2:28:48
  Speaker 1: I've been a registered independent since I was 17, not
• 2:28:50
  Speaker 1: because I don't have political leanings, but because I've never
• 2:28:52
  Speaker 1: wanted to, quote, pick a team and or make up
• 2:28:55
  Speaker 1: my mind based on a party label. As someone who
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 1: also doesn't fit neatly into the boxes of American politics
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 1: gives us, do you see your own political independence as
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 1: a form of protest against a two-party system, or is
• 2:29:05
  Speaker 1: it more about a broader philosophy of keeping your mind
• 2:29:08
  Speaker 1: open and your own counsel? Keep up the great work.
• 2:29:11
  Speaker 1: I'll keep listening. Best, Chris. Look, there's a part of
• 2:29:15
  Speaker 1: me that views it, it's been, I think it only
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 1: enhances journalistic independence. You know, I don't, I think plenty
• 2:29:24
  Speaker 1: of people who register by party can still be journalistically independent,
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: but I certainly think it helps. Right. It certainly doesn't
• 2:29:31
  Speaker 1: hurt it. Um, but for me, it's goes to that.
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 1: Like I've just, I really am a hybrid, um, on
• 2:29:41
  Speaker 1: a lot of things. And some of this is, is,
• 2:29:45
  Speaker 1: you know, it's, I think some of mine comes from, um,
• 2:29:50
  Speaker 1: I always say I was kind of– I was raised
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 1: an empathetic Republican probably if you were to say what
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 1: did my dad– what was my dad and mom raising?
• 2:29:58
  Speaker 1: I remember a 12-year-old me having a debate, leading a
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 1: debate on my school bus. We were going– it was
• 2:30:09
  Speaker 1: seventh grade. No, it was 84. So it may have
• 2:30:14
  Speaker 1: been seventh grade. And it was like Reagan Mondale. And
• 2:30:17
  Speaker 1: it was like 90% of us on the bus were
• 2:30:20
  Speaker 1: Reagan and like 10% were Mondale. And I was the
• 2:30:23
  Speaker 1: only one who could coherently have the argument back and forth.
• 2:30:27
  Speaker 1: But the 10% were the Mondale were pretty well informed.
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 1: I think I was the only guy arguing. And I
• 2:30:33
  Speaker 1: was arguing for Reagan because my dad was for Reagan, right?
• 2:30:35
  Speaker 1: I just looked up to my dad. I'm not going
• 2:30:37
  Speaker 1: to tell you I had any other rationale other than that.
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 1: But I was really into Gary Hart because, you know, Um,
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 1: he seemed, he was, he was younger. He was all
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 1: those things. So I did sort of dig heart, uh,
• 2:30:51
  Speaker 1: in 84 more than I, you know, this is even,
• 2:30:54
  Speaker 1: I didn't like the heart that even before he got
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 1: rooted out on that. But, uh, so I say that
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 1: and that maybe that has, has always contributed to it.
• 2:31:03
  Speaker 1: You know, I've just sort of been, you know, the
• 2:31:05
  Speaker 1: two biggest influences on me. One was a liberal Democrat
• 2:31:07
  Speaker 1: and one was a, was what I would call a,
• 2:31:10
  Speaker 1: an Eisenhower Republican Rockefeller Republican, um, in my father. So,
• 2:31:15
  Speaker 1: you know, Where else do you go other than registering
• 2:31:18
  Speaker 1: as an independent, right? On that front. But I've also,
• 2:31:21
  Speaker 1: one of the things that's so obvious to me now,
• 2:31:24
  Speaker 1: and it only is as you get older, is, and
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say something that's going to sound like
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 1: an old guy in the room here, but I, you know,
• 2:31:34
  Speaker 1: what my view of politics and of behavioral and of
• 2:31:37
  Speaker 1: electorates has changed quite a bit from my mid to
• 2:31:40
  Speaker 1: late 30s to my mid 50s. And I'm not sure.
• 2:31:45
  Speaker 1: I do think, and I'm watching it now, one question
• 2:31:49
  Speaker 1: I have about both AOC and Vance, I think their
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 1: politics are going to continue to evolve as they get older,
• 2:31:55
  Speaker 1: because that's what happens as you get older. Do you
• 2:32:02
  Speaker 1: want that happening during the presidency, or do you want
• 2:32:05
  Speaker 1: that to happen and then have them pursue the presidency?
• 2:32:09
  Speaker 1: I think with Bill Clinton, we saw him do it
• 2:32:12
  Speaker 1: during the presidency, right? I don't know. Um, but the
• 2:32:17
  Speaker 1: bottom line is, is I'm, I've never been comfortable in
• 2:32:21
  Speaker 1: either party. Um, obviously that, but, but what Trump has
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 1: done to the Republican party, it's unrecognizable to me. Uh,
• 2:32:33
  Speaker 1: you know, so even if you, you know, are looking
• 2:32:36
  Speaker 1: for a party that wants a, a, a looser grip
• 2:32:40
  Speaker 1: on government, a little more, you know, a little more
• 2:32:42
  Speaker 1: trust in the market. I don't know. You have no home. Right.
• 2:32:47
  Speaker 1: And I think that's what that that's I know is
• 2:32:50
  Speaker 1: at least one chunk of independence there. But, you know,
• 2:32:53
  Speaker 1: this gets it to, you know, that's why we need
• 2:32:57
  Speaker 1: more parties. Because one size does not fit all. All right.
• 2:33:03
  Speaker 1: That's it for questions. Very quickly, what did I learn
• 2:33:07
  Speaker 1: from college football? Well, let me just tell you what's
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 1: going on in my household. The Florida State wing of
• 2:33:11
  Speaker 1: my household is very upset, was very unimpressed with Florida
• 2:33:15
  Speaker 1: State's very weak win against New Mexico State. And the
• 2:33:18
  Speaker 1: knives are already out for Mike Norvell. I can tell
• 2:33:20
  Speaker 1: you that. And the FSU-SMU game, boy, let's see what
• 2:33:26
  Speaker 1: happens on that one. But if that game's not close,
• 2:33:31
  Speaker 1: things could unravel pretty quickly in Tallahassee, which oddly enough
• 2:33:35
  Speaker 1: might make might make the Florida State wing of my
• 2:33:40
  Speaker 1: family happier, not sadder, for what it's worth. The worst
• 2:33:44
  Speaker 1: would be purgatory. Purgatory is not doing anything. I think
• 2:33:47
  Speaker 1: the good news for my Florida State friends is you're
• 2:33:51
  Speaker 1: not going to be in purgatory that much longer. You're
• 2:33:53
  Speaker 1: going to get out of this. The USC part of
• 2:33:57
  Speaker 1: my brain, right? I teach there. I liked what I
• 2:34:01
  Speaker 1: saw from the quarterback, but I'm really... I can't wait
• 2:34:05
  Speaker 1: to see them against Fresno state. I think there's going
• 2:34:07
  Speaker 1: to be a little bit of a test. I will
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 1: say this USC's backups, not so hot. They certainly let
• 2:34:14
  Speaker 1: San Jose state score a little bit there at the end.
• 2:34:18
  Speaker 1: Does that mean they have depth issues? You got to
• 2:34:20
  Speaker 1: have depth to make it to the college football playoff.
• 2:34:22
  Speaker 1: That is one lesson that I took away from Miami's
• 2:34:26
  Speaker 1: nearly successful run in the playoff on that front. But
• 2:34:31
  Speaker 1: those were it. I, I, I think the next hottest coach,
• 2:34:40
  Speaker 1: the coach that's going to be everybody's first choice to
• 2:34:43
  Speaker 1: poach is going to be UVA's Tony Elliott. I think
• 2:34:47
  Speaker 1: if Florida State's looking, Tony Elliott's going to be there first.
• 2:34:50
  Speaker 1: If Clemson's looking, Tony Elliott's going to be there first.
• 2:34:52
  Speaker 1: So if Wisconsin's looking, I was, let's just say, I
• 2:34:58
  Speaker 1: may have put my money where my mouth was on
• 2:34:59
  Speaker 1: that one. I was looking to fade UVA. I didn't
• 2:35:02
  Speaker 1: buy it last year. I know North Carolina State doesn't
• 2:35:06
  Speaker 1: have the best defense, but UVA impressed me. Tony Elliott,
• 2:35:10
  Speaker 1: right now, I think, at the top of the heap
• 2:35:12
  Speaker 1: to take the next leap into the elite of college
• 2:35:15
  Speaker 1: football coaching. So that's my sort of, oh, and I
• 2:35:19
  Speaker 1: hope you, if you stayed up late, you saw that
• 2:35:21
  Speaker 1: Memphis beat UNLV at UNLV, which means Memphis is already
• 2:35:26
  Speaker 1: now probably the leader in the clubhouse for the group
• 2:35:30
  Speaker 1: of six slot in the college football playoff. That's why
• 2:35:32
  Speaker 1: you had to care about that game. on Saturday night.
• 2:35:35
  Speaker 1: All right. With that, um, I have a college football
• 2:35:39
  Speaker 1: fantasy team. I have to start worrying about, uh, I will,
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 1: I will, I will share some of that with you
• 2:35:44
  Speaker 1: as I learn and everything week zero, there wasn't enough
• 2:35:48
  Speaker 1: playing for there to be the schedule starts next week. Um, uh, so, uh,
• 2:35:53
  Speaker 1: I can't wait. Big shout out to my, uh, my
• 2:35:55
  Speaker 1: Twitter friend, Thor Nystrom, uh, who, uh, who, uh, let
• 2:35:59
  Speaker 1: me into his amazing 60 team league. So me and
• 2:36:04
  Speaker 1: my son are first time owners here. We expect to
• 2:36:07
  Speaker 1: get our butts handed to us. All right. With that,
• 2:36:10
  Speaker 1: we've got I've got Super Tuesday coming. We got an
• 2:36:13
  Speaker 1: election live stream. Marky Moulton. We could see a U.S.
• 2:36:17
  Speaker 1: senator lose a primary. Big, big, big primary night for
• 2:36:21
  Speaker 1: Massachusetts voters on Tuesday. Check out what's going on in Newsphere. Dynastic.
• 2:36:26
  Speaker 1: We're in the middle of our Alabama episodes. They are
• 2:36:28
  Speaker 1: just tremendous. You know, don't you want to know how
• 2:36:31
  Speaker 1: Bear Bryant ended up getting plastic surgery among other gee
• 2:36:34
  Speaker 1: whiz facts you'll learn? Anyway, lots to check out in
• 2:36:38
  Speaker 1: my growing universe of content. And with that, even my
• 2:36:44
  Speaker 1: dog says it's time to go. I'll see you in
• 2:36:46
  Speaker 1: 72 hours or less.