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169: The Sports Tavern - MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA, All Sports · Sports History Network

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This podcast is part of the Sports History Network, your headquarters for the yesteryear of your favorite sport.
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You can learn more@sportshistorynetwork.com Time for a.
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Quick break from the normal for something a little different.
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On this episode of Sports Forgotten Heroes, I'm going to have a little fun with my first ever Sports Tavern.
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It's a sports talk program where I explore a few different sports history topics with a couple of other sports history fans.
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Stay tuned for the inaugural edition of the Sports Tavern.
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This is Sports Forgotten Heroes, a tribute to the stars who shaped the games we love to watch and the games we love to play.
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Stars who provided us with many thrills, but when their time was up, they faded away.
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We'll take a look back at their spectacular careers, their moments of fame, even if it was just for one season or just one game.
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And now, here's your host, Warren Rogan.
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Hello and welcome to Sports Forgotten Heroes,.
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Episode 169, the Sports Tavern.
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Now this is something different and unique and something I'm hoping to do a few times a year.
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This is the inaugural episode, so there are a few tweaks that I will make when I bring you new episodes, but in a nutshell, I've invited three other podcast hosts who all have shows focusing on sports Dan Newman,
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Tim Hanlon, and Harv Aronson.
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Together we'll talk about players who we think belong in the hall of Fame, the stars who might be in the hall, and we debate whether or not they deserve to be there, some revisionist history, a true false segment,
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and other discussion points.
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Of course we won't get to each segment in each show, but in the spirit of discussing sports history, we will all find new nuggets about stars from the past that we have forgotten or just didn't know.
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Now, before we dive into today's show, a few reminders.
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Please follow Sports Forgotten Heroes on xportzfheroes, look for the Sports Forgotten Heroes page on Facebook, and wherever it is you are watching or listening, please give Sports Forgotten Heroes a like a follow and please subscribe.
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Also, I want to mention that my first book, College All Stars vs NFL Champions is now available and you can order it on Amazon or McFarland books.com that's MCF A R L A N D books.com Now I think
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if you are a football fan, you will really enjoy this look back at one of the most unique events in sports history.
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And if you are a general sports fan, I think you're going to find it really interesting as well.
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This was a game that several thought was the second most important date of on the NFL calendar, the Chicago Charities College Football All Star Game.
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Again, you can get a copy of the book on Amazon or mcfarlandbooks.com and if you'd like a signed copy, please reach out to me at sportsfh.infomail.com that's sportsfh.infomail dot com and I'll help make those arrangements.
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And, and of course, as always, I thank you for your support.
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Okay, let's get into today's show, the first ever episode of the Sports Tavern.
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Welcome to the first ever Sports Forgotten Heroes Sports Tavern show.
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And this is really exciting.
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I'm, I'm glad I have my guests here today.
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And I, I hope to do this, you know, twice a year.
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I think this is going to be a really cool thing where we all get together for some Sports Tavern talk, only it concentrates on sports history, not about yesterday's game or tonight's game or tomorrow's game.
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It's about sports history, something all of us, what I like to call sports nerds love.
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And joining me today are Tim Hanlon from the Good Seed, still available podcast.
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I got Dan Newman from hello Old Sports.
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And I got Harv Aronson from Total Sports Recall.
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And I'd like to start the show off this way, give you each about 20 or 30 seconds to tell us a little bit about your podcast.
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And let's start off with you, Dan.
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Tell me a little bit about hello, Old Sports.
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Hey, thanks, Warren.
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First of all, it's just a pleasure to do this.
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I've been a listener of yours and of Tim's especially for, you know, eight or nine years.
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So really thrilled to be doing this.
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My podcast is called hello, Old Sports.
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It's a show I do with my brother Andrew.
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We're kind of a little bit of everything.
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We mostly focus on the big three and we pick a topic and we could do anything from, from 19th century baseball, the, you know, the 1890s Orioles to, you know, LeBron's Lakers and anything in between.
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We have a little bit of a New York focus because that's where we both grew up.
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You know, obviously as brothers we'd have grown up in the same place, but really kind of anything and everything sports history from us.
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Awesome.
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Well, Dan, thanks for being here and a part of this.
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Really thrilled to have you aboard the Tim, tell us a little bit about good seats still available.
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Thanks, Warren, for having me.
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I appreciate it, guys.
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Welcome.
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I'm enjoying this Already.
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And good seats still available is focused on what, quote unquote, used to be in professional sports.
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We've made that a hyphenated thing for about almost 10 years now.
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A subtitle, I guess, could be hot takes on dead and forgotten and defunct teams and stuff.
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Right.
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So it's a niche of a niche.
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Right.
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So this week's baseball reminiscence about, I don't know, the Boston Bees will be, you know, last week's opining about WFL franchise of the past.
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So it's a mixed bag of stuff, but it's all about stuff that's forgotten in closets and attics everywhere.
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And, I don't know, we keep soldiering along nine plus years, and God bless.
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So there you go.
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Awesome.
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Awesome.
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It's a great podcast, and I enjoy listening to it as well.
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And finally.
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Well, in a week or two, right, because you're coming up.
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So hang in.
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Yeah, I'm thrilled.
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I'm thrilled to be a guest of yours.
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And.
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And, Harv, tell us a little bit about Total Sports Recall.
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So Total Sports Recall is all history.
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I consider myself history buff, so I just look for historical topics.
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My byline is covering sports from a different angle with a Pittsburgh twist, because I'm from Pittsburgh.
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So here and there you'll hear some Pittsburgh stories, but basically just looking at the most interesting topics I can find dealing with sports history.
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And I just.
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I consider myself a sports historian, so I thrive on this kind of stuff.
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And I appreciate you having me back on Warren.
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Really like that.
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Really love being here.
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Yeah, a lot.
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We had a lot of fun last time talking about Bill Mazeroski.
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Okay, so what we're gonna do is today's format.
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We are going to do where each of us nominate a player for their respective hall of Fame who has not been elected to their respective hall of Fame will each nominate one person, tell us why we think that
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person should be in the hall, and then as a group, we'll say, this is the one that's really been overlooked and should be in.
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Only you can't choose the person you nominate.
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So if you nominate Pete Rose, Harv, if you nominate Pete Rose, you can't vote for Pete Rose.
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And, you know, unfortunately, a lot of people can't vote for Pete Rose on trial.
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I'm gonna make a statement.
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One of you guys are going to argue for it, one of you are going to argue against it, and the other one will act as the judge.
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We're going to do a little bit of revisionist history.
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We Each come up with a what if scenario and sort of like, what if the ABA had never merged with the NBA?
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What would professional basketball look like today?
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And.
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And then finally, if we have some time, we'll do a couple of true false questions.
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I'll.
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I'll.
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I'll make a statement, true or false, and you guys will take a guess as to whether or not it's true or false.
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But that's only if we have the time.
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So what I'd like to do is let's start off with who should be in the hall of Fame and why.
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And Tim, I am putting you on the spot.
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Geez.
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As we record this, right?
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We're in the middle of the World cup.
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And as listeners to our show know, I do obsess a little bit too much about soccer stuff, only because as listeners know, I grew up in the seventies in New York Cosmos, and, and it was a white hot
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comet moment of international superstars that brought soccer from this sort of foreign world into everybody's consciousness.
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And we're in the midst of the World cup now.
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So I do have a bit of the World cup fever.
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So I'm going to throw a name that actually you guys might even know, even if you're not soccer fans, which I'm assuming you're kind of probably met about.
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But that's okay.
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His name is Shep Messing.
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Oh, the goalie.
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Okay.
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So people.
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Okay, so I see some head nodding, and Warren even had an exasperation there.
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Shepass is synonymous with the early and mid-1970s.
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Certainly.
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He was.
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Became Pele's kind of ambassador, so to speak, during the mid-70s when he was with the cop, when they were both with the Cosmos.
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But Shep has had a very interesting career elsewhere.
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He was.
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He represented the United States on the national team in the early 70s when that wasn't a thing.
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He was in the midst of the munich tragedy in 1972 when he was playing for the Olympic team.
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He was literally yards away from the atrocities that were happening.
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And he's.
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He's a Harvard grad, but he also has.
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He was instrumental in.
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In bringing the Major Indoor Soccer League into being, which was completely not a thing.
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And he's just been an ambassador to the game ever since.
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He's also a.
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He.
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He's quite a personality.
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And I will leave you with this.
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In terms of his influence on the game.
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He knows.
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He knew back in the day how to get publicity for the North American Soccer League by.
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Wait for it, posing nude in viva magazine in 1974.
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Unbeknownst to his teammates or to his league at the time, was rankled a couple of feathers.
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But he got attention and in New York that's what you needed.
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And he knew all about it.
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He should be in the U.S.
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soccer hall of Fame.
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There's no question in my mind.
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Case closed.
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Well, just based off of posing in those magazines, he should be in the hall of Fame.
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I share those photos with you, but you can look them up, as they say.
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All right, Harv, how about you?
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Who should be in the hall of Fame and why?
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This is an easy, easy, easy one for me.
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LC Greenwood, one of the key members of the Steel Curtain.
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And it's an atrocity that he's not in the hall of Fame.
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So what I did today is I went back and looked at his stats and you know, he was a star in the super bowl.
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Super Bowl 9, two solo tackles.
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Super Bowl 10, three solo tackles.
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Then he went off in Super Bowl 13 with a sack and five solo tackles and then 14, another solo tackle.
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But you know, he was just as key member as that defensive line then was Joe Green.
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So I said, well, you know what these two guys look like against each other.
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So I compared the two.
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The, the numbers aren't that far off.
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We say Elsie Greenwood played in 11 less games and he had 78 sacks.
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Joe Green had 77.
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So he actually had more sacks than Joe Green.
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Joe Green's in the hall of Fame.
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Joe Green during his career forced two fumbles.
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L.C.
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Greenwood, Force 4.
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So the numbers are a little better.
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And fumble recovery 16 to 14.
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2, 2 better for Joe Green.
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And year after year they just keep passing him by.
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He lost out again this year by the senior committee, but he is definitely.
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And the crazy thing is that they got drafted in the same year, so they came in the same class.
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And El Serge was drafted I believe in like the third, third or fourth round, 10th round.
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I take that back, 10th round, 238th overall.
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And look how great of a player he turned out to be.
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He was a needle in the haystack.
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Definitely belongs in the hall of Fame.
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Great, great, great summary there.
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Okay, Dan, how about you?
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So I went back quite a ways to the Negro Leagues and actually the pre Negro league days to a right handed fireballer by the name of Dick Cannonball Redding.
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And he has been considered for the hall of Fame numerous times, most recently in the the 2022 balloting that elected Buck O' Neill and Bud Fowler from the Negro Leagues in the early 1970s when the decision was first
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made to include to start to induct Negro league players.
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An article in the New York Daily News listed 12 players that they felt would be leading candidates for inclusion.
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And those were Cool Papa Bell, Oscar Charleston, Ray Dandridge, Martine De Higo, Josh Gibson, Monty Irvin, Judy Johnson, Buck Leonard, Pop Lloyd, Satchel Paige, Smokey Joe Williams, and the 12th was Dick Cannonball.
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Reading Redding is the only one who has not been elected into the Baseball hall of Fame.
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No less an expert than Casey Stengel.
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Said you can have Satchel Paige.
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I'll take Cannonball reading.
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As difficult as it is sometimes to get accurate stats, fully accurate stats from the Negro Leagues, it is even more difficult to get fully accurate and complete stats from the pre Negro League days, the days before 1920.
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But one estimate has Reading with a career one loss record of 346 and 152 and a third 38.8 war.
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And if you and these statistics can always be, you know, disputed based on what's counted and what's not.
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But even if we put aside the comparison to the white major leagues and we just look at the black leagues, Reading would be the only black baseball pitcher with an with a career war on over 35 that has
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not been inducted into the Baseball hall of Fame.
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I have a quick question about him because I know the rules were a little different back then and I did a podcast a while back on a pitcher by the name of Jim McCormick and McCormick also not in
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the hall of Fame and he had over 300 wins, had some crazy numbers, but they threw the ball underhanded.
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Was that at the time?
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Do you know if it was underhanded pitching at that at that time?
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So reading started in 1911 and was there until the 30s.
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So he was by the time.
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Yeah, he was well past that.
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That, you know, I think it was what, 1893 that they moved the mound back to 60 foot 6 inches.
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So he was pitching under the current dimensions of the game.
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Gotcha.
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Okay.
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Awesome.
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Mine close to my heart.
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I recently finished writing a book about a hockey player by the name of Jim Nielsen.
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Nielsen was, was a defenseman for the New York Rangers.
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Broke in in 1962 and played until 1979.
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17 years in the NHL.
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Played with the Rangers and then with the the phenomenon called the California Golden Seals was a part of the Seals when they went to Cleveland for that disaster with the Cleveland Barons.
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And he his final year was in the WHA with the Edmonton Oilers, not in the hall of Fame.
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He was the sixth player in the history of the NHL to play over 1, 000 games.
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And there are 1, 2, 3, 4 several players that were elected to the hall of Fame who had also defensemen who, who had fewer points than he did.
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Guy like Marcel Pronovo had 345 total points.
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Leo Boyvin 322.
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Jacques Le Perriere 282.
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Tom Johnson 264.
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The main difference between those guys and Jim Nielsen, they all want a Stanley Cup.
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They were part of Stanley cup winning teams.
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Nielsen never won a Stanley cup.
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Overall the 37th ranked defenseman for scoring guys that got in after him, Rod Langway, less points.
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Fernie Flamen got in 208 points.
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Had, you know, over a hundred and thirty less points than him.
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You know, it's.
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But he won a Stanley Cup.
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And Nielsen, like I said, sixth player ever to play in a thousand games.
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Seventeen years with the NHL.
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Twelve with the Rangers was top five Norris Trophy voting.
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But it was pretty tough to beat out Bobby Orr at that time.
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But again, never won a Stanley Cup.
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Of course I could go much, much deeper into it, but the final thing is he could have also gone in as a builder, being one of the first ever Native Americans, so to speak.
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You know, he was part of the Cree Nation.
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Willie O'Re is in the hall of Fame as a builder, largely considered to be the first ever black man to play in the NHL.
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There was a gentleman by the name of Herb Carnegie who also made it into the hall of Fame as a builder.
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He's considered by many to be the best black player to have never played in the NHL.
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And lastly, Lord, Stanley is in the hall of Fame.
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And the only thing that guy ever did was donate the top of the Stanley Cup.
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So you know, that's, that's, that is my, my argument, my, my quick argument for Jim Nielsen.
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So there we go.
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We have Shep Messing, Dick Cannonball Redding, Elsie Greenwood and Jim Nielsen.
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And with that, let's just quickly take a vote.
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You can't vote for the guy that you nominated, so we'll go around the circle.
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And Tim, since you went first with Shep, who's your guy?
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I think I'm biased from my childhood and experiences.
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I'm going to go with Elsie Greenwood.
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And I think I know why he hasn't been chosen because it's almost like the whole damn team is that he played on has is in there now.
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But I, I don't think that's his fault.
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It kind of is, but it's certainly not.
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All right, so we got one For LC Harv, how about you?
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I gotta go with Tim's Shep Messing, because I grew up in the 70s and I clearly remember that name.
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As soon as he said the name, I was like, I know this guy.
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And I remember watching Pele as well.
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So, yeah, definitely.
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Shep Messing was a great, great soccer player.
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And I'm not a huge soccer fan, but even as a distant fan of soccer, when you know somebody's name, you know, that means he must have been that good.
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And I actually went to a couple of those New York Arrow indoor soccer games.
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How about you, Dan?
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I'm going to go also with Greenwood.
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I think sometimes, whether it's the packers of the 60s or these Steeler teams, you know, when you got a.
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The Bears, even when you got a great defense, there's so many guys who can be inducted, be elected into the hall of Fame, and eventually they all get in, it seems like.
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I think there's what, seven guys now from the Lombardi Packer defense and how many?
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5 or whatever from Pittsburgh.
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So I think Greenwood will get in one day, and he is my choice.
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And it's tragic because he's not going to be around to see that day.
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That's what's the real sad thing.
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He should have been in years ago.
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Yeah, that's the one thing I really don't like about some of these hall of Fame elections.
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They wait till the guy is.
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Has.
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Has gone on before he gets his due respect.
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I, too, am gonna go with LC Greenwood.
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I mean, the guy I remember the Steel Curtain, you know, Snow Ham, Mean Joe Green, Elsie Greenwood.
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You can't have one without the other.
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And I really.
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I really like Dick Cannonball Redding, too.
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And I.
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I've done a show on Oscar Charleston, largely regarded as perhaps one of the top three or four baseball players in.
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In the history of the game.
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And, but for.
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For.
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For.
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For the purpose of today's Sports Tavern, Elsie Greenwood needs to be in the hall of Fame.
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All right, Good for you, Harv.
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Way to go.
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Okay, our next topic is going to be.
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We are going to put a baseball player on trial, and his name is Chuck Klein.
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And when I discovered the things about Chuck Klein, I was pretty amazed that it took him so long to get into the hall of Fame.
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And then I started to read more about it, and I sort of understood why.
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There are so many people that say he shouldn't be in the hall of Fame.
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And then you have those who say he should be in the hall of Fame.
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And I think for today's episode.
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Harv is going to argue for the case of why Chuck Klein should he is in the hall of Fame and why he deserves to be there.
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And who is going to argue and say, yeah, you know what?
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He doesn't deserve to be there?
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Is that Dan?
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I think that was going to be me.
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Yes, sir.
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Okay, and then, Tim, you're going to make the final call.
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I'm just going to bring up a couple of background pieces on Chuck here.
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Chuck played in.
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In the major leagues.
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1928 to 1933.
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He was on the Phillies 34 to 36.
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He was on the Cubs and went back to the Phillies from 36 to 39.
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Played part of the year in 39 for the Pirates and then was back at Philadelphia with the Phillies from 1940-44.
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His, his career numbers played 17 years, 300 home runs, exactly 1201 RBI.
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Had a career batting average of.320 and he won a Triple Crown, won an MVP, had 170 RBI in 1930 and didn't lead the National League because Hack Wilson had.191, the major league record that year.
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But there's, there's some really interesting information about Chuck.
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I'm gonna sit back and listen to you guys go for it.
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Harv, why should, why is it, why should Chuck Klein be in the Hall?
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He was elected.
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Why does he deserve.
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That's right.
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Why does he deserve his.
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His induction?
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Well, there's a couple of ways to think about this, I think, and if you look at now more recent years, guys that are being voted into hall of Fame, and I always say to.
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Are they really the greatest of the great, that's who belongs in the hall of Fame.
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So I said, looking at Chuck Klein, let me do it this way.
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I took six of the greatest players in history and compared their stats against Chuck Klein's and an average amount per season.
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So I took Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Luke Eric, Stan Musial, ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio.
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I mean, those are six undeniable hall of Famers.
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And when I round out their numbers average per season, Chuck Klein's not that far behind.
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I mean, ted Williams is a 344 hitter.
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Babe Ruth, 342 for career.
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340 for Lou Gehrig, 331 mutual 366 for Cobb and 325 for DiMaggio.
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Well, DiMaggio is one of the best players ever.
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And Klein's right there with him.
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320.
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So the numbers are really comparable.
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And if he can sit in that kind of neighborhood there with the six other great players with close numbers, then absolutely, he should belong in a Hall of Fame.
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Now, I also looked at his career stats, and they bowled them out.
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In Sports Reference, when he's leading the league, he led the league in a lot of categories a lot of times.
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Games played per season, three straight years leading the league, and runs scored.
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He led the league in doubles twice.
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And then in home runs, he led the league four times, twice in RBIs, once in stolen bases.
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He led the league in hitting 368.
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1933, he was in the MVP voting four times, five times, and he won it once.
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He was second once, won it once, second twice.
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He was always in an All Star year after year.
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I mean, his numbers really, for me, stack up to what qualifies, what I believe should be a Hall of Famer.
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And when you roll off the names of some of these great players, most historians will know who Chuck Klein is.
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And so just being able to say his name among some of these other greats, I think he's deserved to be in the hall of Fame.
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Dan.
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Well, let me just sort of start off by saying I don't hate the selection of Chuck Klein to the hall of Fame.
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I think there are others that are more egregious.
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You know, Lloyd Wehner or what's the guy, the McCarthy from the 1890s, Boston National League team, Tommy McCarthy.
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There are outfielders in the hall of Fame that have worse resumes than Chuck Klein.
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But I would sort of turn on its head.
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One of the points that Harv made about the six seasons, in a lot of ways, that's really all he had by 1934, when he goes to the Chicago Cubs.
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He's kind of sort of getting the tail end of his career and would never, after 34, his first year in Chicago, he would never be an All Star team again.
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He would never really lead the league in any meaningful categories again.
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It really is a question of six solid seasons for Chuck Klein.
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He played in an era where offensive baseball, especially power baseball, was at the highest level that it would be.
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With the possible exception of the late 1990s and the steroid era.
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His, you know, perhaps his greatest year was that 1930.
28:35
Well, no, he was.
28:36
He was better in, in another year.
28:38
But, you know, 1930, which may have been, which was one of his best years, is widely regarded as the biggest year for power and offensive baseball in the history of Major League Baseball.
28:52
There's a stat called jaws, which is by A baseball historian and analyst by named Jay Jaffe where it's, it's his effort to normalize WAR and he does it by position to, to determine whether somebody is deserving of being
29:10
in the hall of Fame.
29:11
And Chuck Klein is 32nd all time in JAWS for right fielders and he's behind names like Brian Giles, Bobby Bonds, Reggie Smith, probably individuals that nobody would ever consider to be even worthy of considering for the hall of
29:30
Fame.
29:30
And then there's the whole sort of idea of the Baker ball, which was the home field of the Philadelphia Phillies in the year that Klein was there, was only 280ft to right field and just about 300 to right
29:45
center.
29:46
Klein being a left handed hit hitter, 131 home runs and 469 RBI.
29:53
In his, in his, in his years with the Phillies this is 131 home runs and 469 RBI is at Baker bowl while hitting just 60 home runs and 259 RBI in road games.
30:05
So he's, you know, roughly, very roughly half in both categories.
30:11
And I, I also think that in any sport winning matters to a certain degree.
30:17
If you're going to take a guy who's got a short career, who's maybe got some of these other asterisks like you know, an advantage in his home field, you maybe need a big moment, you need a big pennant
30:29
race, you need a Gabby Hartnett homer in the glomen type of thing.
30:33
And Klein doesn't really have any of those.
30:35
He played in a World Series with the Cubs, didn't win it.
30:39
I'm not saying that we should elect Bobby Thompson to the hall of Fame based on one home run.
30:43
But when there are strong arguments on both sides, I don't think it's wrong to look at did this guy have a big moment, big postseason, anything like that.
30:53
And Chuck Klein doesn't.
30:54
So again, I don't hate the selection of Chuck Klein.
30:58
There are others based on the statistics that I would remove first, but I think I can make a strong argument against.
31:06
I'm going to, I'm going to chime in a little bit here, Tim, before you make your, make your call.
31:16
I'm going to argue a little bit here with dan about the 280ft down the right field line.
31:25
But the wall was 60ft tall, the right field wall was 60ft tall and again 280ft.
31:37
And what I find interesting is that is a huge argument with the naysayers as to why Chuck Klein should not be in the hall of Fame is because it was only 280ft and he had so many of his
31:53
home runs to, to right and right center field.
31:56
But they don't hold that against the players who played on the Yankees.
32:01
And never going to say Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig don't deserve to be in the hall of Fame.
32:06
But Yankee stadium was only 314 down the line.
32:09
The Polo Grounds, Mel Ott, it was only 258ft down the right field line.
32:16
And Fenway, when you go the opposite way left field, you know, we don't say much about Ted Williams.
32:22
310Ft with a 37 foot wall.
32:25
So, so while I don't disagree with the argument of 280ft, but why is that more penalized?
32:33
Why is Klein more penalized for that as opposed to the other guys who also had short porches?
32:39
The hall of Fame argument are the winning, being on a winning team argument.
32:45
That's sort of what I just went through with my nomination of Jim Nielsen to the hall of Fame.
32:50
Jim Nielsen was never part of a championship team.
32:55
Chuck Klein was never part of a championship team.
32:58
But guys who had compiled less of a career are elected.
33:06
But guys who never won aren't elected.
33:09
So that's, that's a, that's a, that's a strange one.
33:12
And I will say you say he never had his moment.
33:16
He actually had one huge moment.
33:19
He hit four home runs in one game and almost hit a fifth.
33:24
The story is the ball was one of these that were, was at the fence and the guy hauled it back in.
33:30
So I, I, I, I sort of support some of your argument, Dan.
33:35
And as far as, as far as Harv is concerned, the number that I find absolutely crazy, that to me is the one that should get you into the hall of Fame are his total bases.
33:51
His total bases, 1929.
33:54
He had 405.
33:56
He did not lead the league.
33:57
But 19, 30, 31, 32 and 33.
34:01
He led the National League in total bases.
34:04
445, 347, 420 and 365.
34:10
Out of the top 10 seasons to lead your league in total bases, only two players appear on that list twice.
34:24
Twice.
34:24
Chuck Klein led the National League in total bases.
34:28
Twice.
34:28
Lou Gehrig led the American League in total bases.
34:31
And go and do yourself a favor and take a look at the guys who are not on that list.
34:37
It's absolutely amazing.
34:40
So, but again I'm going to go back to, to Dan.
34:45
He only had six, seven really phenomenal years.
34:49
But those Phenomenal years.
34:51
I mean he had a triple crown win.
34:54
He had 170 RBI1 season, 145 RBI1 season.
35:02
And here's a, here's a stat that so many people overlook is it's a defensive metric stat.
35:12
He holds the modern day record for most assists by an outfielder in one single season.
35:18
He did it with 44 in 1930 and that followed 41 in 1929.
35:26
So does he deserve to be in the hall of Fame?
35:31
Does he not deserve.
35:33
One last thing, just an interesting aside.
35:35
It's so interesting to me that he actually did wind up with the Phillies.
35:41
He was actually in the Cardinals minor league system, but the Cardinals broke a rule.
35:46
They had two teams in the same league and you're not allowed to do that.
35:52
They had a team in Fort Wayne and they had a team in Dayton.
35:56
And the commissioner said, sorry guys, you're penalized.
36:00
You have to sell all your players.
36:03
So the Cardinals lost out and had to sell their players.
36:06
And so there was a bidding war on Chuck Klein and the Phillies outbid the Yankees for the services of Chuck Klein.
36:14
Phillies bid 7, $500.
36:16
The Yankees did 5,000.
36:17
So the Yankees could have actually had Klein, Ruth and Gehrig all at the same time.
36:25
That would have been something.
36:27
So with that, you know, I, there, there's certainly great argument there made by, by Dan.
36:34
Great argument made there by, by Harv.
36:37
But now we need to go to the judge, Tim Hammond.
36:42
All rise.
36:43
Here comes the judge.
36:45
Well, look, I, I think all of the, you guys have both exhaustively kind of gone through all the stats and stuff.
36:51
I think the two negative dings against his career have been definitely talked about here.
36:59
The, the, the hyper offensive 1930s.
37:03
Right.
37:03
You know, 1930, for example, he drove in, was it 170 runs, I think the entire National League around that time as a group I think batted around 300, maybe a 303, something like that, you know, so he was
37:18
definitely part of a genre of hitters and stuff.
37:22
So there's a bit of grade inflation there, but it still doesn't mean he wasn't contributing on his own stats.
37:27
Right.
37:29
So I think that's kind of a wash.
37:30
I think the other real thing is this Baker bowl effect.
37:33
But you know, again, I'm not sure that's his fault.
37:36
Right?
37:36
I mean it's not.
37:37
He didn't build the facility.
37:39
Right.
37:39
The miserly owner of, of the Phillies back in the day even built a fence to kind of prevent more home runs because he was sick and tired of complaints, apparently.
37:50
Of the balls going over the fence and hitting cars and that kind of stuff.
37:54
Right.
37:55
Clearly, promotion was not in his.
37:57
In his veins, but because that's a good thing.
37:59
You know, people come see the.
38:01
The.
38:01
The.
38:01
The ball get hit out of the park.
38:04
That's not his fault.
38:05
By the way, other people got to play in Baker bowl, too.
38:07
He wasn't the only one.
38:08
Right.
38:10
So he just got good at exploiting that advantage.
38:12
But I totally understand and agree that his.
38:16
His.
38:18
His career, even though it was, what, 17 years or so, is more concentrated in those early years.
38:24
I just think it's kind of hard when you look at the stats.
38:26
And to me, the stats kind of speak for themselves.
38:31
And I agree that the four home runs in a game certainly is.
38:36
Is an illuminating memory that is, you know, indelible.
38:42
You know, I'm surprised it took kind of as long as it did, but I think that the wise decision was made.
38:48
I think he.
38:48
He indeed does deserve to be in the hall of Fame.
38:51
Now that said, I think there are plenty of others who also deserve it, too, that aren't in, and we can save that for another episode.
38:57
But well defended and well argued, guys.
39:00
But I.
39:00
I think I have to tip my hat to Cooperstown on this one.
39:03
I think they got this right.
39:04
Fair enough.
39:05
Very cool.
39:06
Very cool.
39:07
Thanks.
39:08
You know, it's.
39:10
It's a fun thing to do, this kind of stuff.
39:12
It's.
39:12
You know, we look back at all these numbers and.
39:16
And all these guys, and we think of some of the guys that are.
39:19
That have been elected into the hall of Fame, you know, recently, who we think should be or should not be in the hall of Fame.
39:27
And I always go back to.
39:31
To the one.
39:31
I mean, I had a college buddy at the time.
39:35
I was a huge Daryl Strawberry fan.
39:38
And I think Daryl Strawberry was certainly on a Hall of Fame trajectory, and.
39:42
Then he blew it, and he's not.
39:44
In there, and I don't think he deserves to be in there.
39:47
And his.
39:48
My bud's favorite player was Harold Baines.
39:51
And I'm just.
39:52
I look at the Harold Baines argument and, you know, maybe we should have put Harold Baines on trial, because I'm just not sure that Harold Baines is in the same class as a lot of these other hall of
40:10
Famers.
40:11
So there you go.
40:13
I'm gonna add one thing here that I do think there's a recency bias.
40:16
And I do.
40:17
I do think that most halls of fame are recognizing that, and I think can maybe kind of think a little bit more astutely about sort of what qualifies.
40:28
But I will say this, and this popped into my head when you mentioned, when you mentioned Nielsen for the.
40:36
For the hockey one.
40:36
Right.
40:38
You know, at the end of the day, I honestly think that charisma and style beyond the statistics does play a role in it.
40:50
And there is something to be said for the Shep Messings of the world.
40:53
Right.
40:54
Where statistically, you know, he was relatively strong.
40:58
But you can't deny that he had a contribution of lasting memory for folks who were huge fans and even who weren't.
41:09
Right.
41:09
I think what most halls of fame, and I've only learned this in the last number of years doing this show, is that the historical contributions that these players, these builders, these founders, these visionaries, whatever, make, I think go
41:25
beyond the stats line.
41:26
I think stats very important and probably early on was pretty much the benchmark for should.
41:32
Should somebody be in or not.
41:33
But I think you want to have to step back and frankly, with.
41:36
You need some years of.
41:41
To accrue to kind of really understand what's the legacy of these people, how much did they contribute, how did they stand out?
41:49
And if they weren't part of a book of history about the sport, would it be lacking?
41:56
And I think that's kind of also the.
41:58
To me, that kind of is just as important, if not more so, beyond the stats.
42:02
And I'm not sure all the various halls of fame have calibrated for that effect yet, but that would be my sort of tiebreaker, if anybody's asking.
42:11
Well, you know, just to continue on.
42:14
What you said, that was part of the Nielsen argument, is what he had to overcome to make it to the NHL.
42:22
When he was just around five years old, his mother left.
42:27
His father was a mink rancher, and in order to succeed at his job, he had to leave the family for quite some period of time throughout the year.
42:39
And he could not raise Jim on his own.
42:41
And they had to.
42:42
Jim had two younger sisters.
42:44
The father picked all three of them up and dropped them off at an orphanage.
42:48
And that's where Jim and his two younger sisters were raised.
42:51
And from there he was able to figure out a way to make something of his life.
42:56
And at the time, it was a very, very turbulent time.
43:03
If you were.
43:04
If you were of Indian heritage, you were taken away from your family and put into residential schools.
43:10
And some of the horrors that those guys and those gals face during their times in residential schools are awful.
43:18
And in a way, being placed in an orphanage saved Jim from.
43:23
From some of those Atrocities that took place as late as 1997 or 1996.
43:32
These, the, the, these.
43:34
The Canadian government had a Division of Indian affairs and they were still taking children away from their families.
43:41
So.
43:42
And Jim overcame all that and made his way.
43:45
Never, ever.
43:45
The first ever NHL game that Jim Nielsen ever saw was the first one he ever played in.
43:52
And you know, when you live in Canada, when you grow up in Canada and you make it to the NHL and you've never seen an NHL game, that's saying a lot.
44:01
But great argument, guys.
44:03
A lot of fun here.
44:05
Let's move on to our next segment.
44:07
What if?
44:10
I think this is going to be really fun.
44:12
A little revisionist history.
44:14
And for this one, I'd like to start with Tim.
44:18
Tim, what if.
44:20
Give us a great what if.
44:23
I'm sorry to hang on soccer too much, but it is the World cup and a lot of people outside of fandom of the sport in the United States don't recognize that.
44:33
In 1982, we had the chance to host the World Cup.
44:38
It was a situation where Colombia had gotten awarded.
44:44
The, the competition was 82.
44:49
86.
44:49
I'm sorry, 86.
44:51
And the, the scenario was they kind of blew it for a bunch of different reasons from technical matters and that kind of stuff.
45:01
And there was.
45:02
The North American Soccer League was wobbling very violently at that time in the early 80s.
45:07
There was a heroic and Herculean effort by people like Henry Kissinger and others in the soccer community to rally around this and get it.
45:18
And I think, frankly, it was kind of the last ditch effort to kind of help sort of stabilize what was starting to.
45:25
The balloon was starting to kind of collapse a bit as the 80s dawned and the economic pressures were getting at the North American Soccer League.
45:33
So my big what if is what if the United States had somehow gotten the 1986 World Cup?
45:41
You could make a very strong argument that those wobbly years from 82 to 85, when it ultimately died, would have been propped up by the anticipation and the halo effect of a rejuvenated interest in the sport and perhaps
45:58
could have kept it from dying, shall we say, and going to.
46:01
Only indoors for the next 10, 15 years and going into a, a desert, if you will, of, of, of nothingness until 1990.
46:10
Mm, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean the anticipation and, and the build up to a World cup and you had the NASL at that time, like you were, you were saying, might have been a lot more interest and
46:24
we might not have an MLS today, might still be the NASL Absolutely.
46:29
All right, Harv, what if?
46:33
Before I get to the one if, I just want to say one thing to Tim, my college classmate at Slippery Rock State College.
46:42
He turned out to be the director of Western Pennsylvania Soccer.
46:47
He's been on my show.
46:48
I interviewed him a couple years ago, but he leads the whole Western Pennsylvania Soccer association over there, from youth all the way up to young adults.
46:57
So it's pretty neat.
46:59
My what if is easy for me because it deals with my boyhood hero.
47:06
Tragic story, of course, Roberto Clemente.
47:09
What if he didn't board the plane that day?
47:11
Does his career go on?
47:12
How much longer does he play?
47:14
But the interesting twist to this story is it involves somebody else.
47:18
Because not Only that day, December 31, 1972, did we lose a life, but Roberto Clemente actually inadvertently saved a life.
47:28
You guys may not know this story or not, but Tom Walker used to play baseball.
47:33
Very good friend of Roberto Clemente.
47:35
So he goes to Clemente that day.
47:36
He says, I want to come with you, help you.
47:39
You know, I feel for these people as well.
47:41
And Clemente said, no, it's New Year's Eve.
47:43
Go home, enjoy your family, and have a nice New Year's Eve.
47:48
Had he got on that plane, he would not have survived either.
47:52
And so there would be no Neil Walker, who is his son.
47:58
So, in a way, Roberto, we tragically lost him, but he saved Tom Walker's life.
48:03
So it's very, very interesting.
48:05
And the crazy thing is, I found out in doing the research today that Tom is the brother in law of Chip Lang, who played for the Montreal Expos.
48:17
Chip Lang graduated from my high school about two or three years before me.
48:21
I said, wow, that's an interesting twist.
48:24
I mean, my sister knew Chip Lang.
48:25
He played professional baseball, and he's the brother in law of Tom Walker who would not be here today if he got on that plane.
48:35
That's.
48:35
That's a good one, too.
48:37
That's really good.
48:38
Nice.
48:38
Nicely done, Harvard.
48:40
How about you, Dan?
48:41
What if?
48:42
So mine involves somebody passing away, but not.
48:46
Not quite so prematurely.
48:48
My.
48:48
My question is, what if Vince Lombardi had not passed away after the 1969 NFL season or I guess just prior to the 1970 season, and had been able to remain and coach the Washington Redskins for the next several
49:03
years?
49:04
Would he have become the first and to this date, only coach ever to win a Super bowl with two different NFL teams?
49:12
Would he have challenged the.
49:16
The budding dynasty of the Pittsburgh Steelers?
49:19
We've never had a situation in the NFL, and to my knowledge, maybe That I can think of.
49:25
Even in other sports, but particularly in the NFL, where you had the coach of a previous dynasty going on and having significant success challenging another dynasty, would it have been the.
49:42
In the nfc, would the main powers have been Lombardi and landry throughout the 70s and would that have been a storyline?
49:49
These two guys who got their start together with the New York giants in the 1950s now facing off against each other in, you know, in.
49:58
For NFC supremacy.
49:59
What would that have meant for the Vikings?
50:02
Would we have gotten a Lombardi versus Noel Super Bowl?
50:06
You know, two great hall of Fame coaches?
50:08
I actually looked it up.
50:10
I didn't know this before today, but actually in Lombardi's one year in Washington, he actually did play a single game against the Steelers against Chuck Noel and lost.
50:19
So.
50:20
Or actually, I think they, they actually, they won.
50:21
The Redskins won, the, The Steelers lost.
50:25
What would it have meant?
50:26
Not just for his own legacy, but, but if Vince Lombardi would have remained a powerhouse.
50:32
Now Lombardi joined a team with.
50:36
In green Bay with seven or eight eventual hall of Famers already on the roster in 1959.
50:43
You could argue that he made some of those guys into hall of Famers, but he.
50:47
The Redskins roster that he picked up in 1969 definitely does not have seven or eight hall of Famers.
50:53
And he needed a quarterback.
50:55
Sonny Jurgensen was 35, so he wasn't going to be his quarterback of the future to take him to multiple Super Bowls.
51:02
That all being said, it was very interesting to think about how that.
51:07
1970S in the NFL, which is the story of Dallas, Pittsburgh, Miami, Oakland, how would Vince Lombardi and the Redskins have fit into all of that?
51:16
That's awesome.
51:17
That's.
51:17
That's.
51:17
That, that's, that's a great what if too.
51:19
Wow, you guys have really come up.
51:21
With some great ones.
51:23
My.
51:24
What if I, I struggled with it because I had, I had, I had three.
51:28
One was what I had suggested up front when we first, when I, when I talked about it.
51:33
What would have happened had the ABA not merged with the NBA?
51:37
You know, what would professional basketball look like?
51:40
I mean, would there still be a Kentucky Colonels?
51:43
You know, you know, one of the teams that probably should have merged with, with the NBA.
51:49
The other one is always a favorite of mine.
51:52
What if New York Giants management had listened to Bill Parcells and instead of drafting in the supplemental draft, taking Gary Zimmerman, what if they listened to Parcells and with the third pick in the supplemental draft, they would have
52:08
taken Reggie White.
52:09
You would have had Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor on the same team in the prime of their careers.
52:15
It would have been crazy.
52:17
But I didn't go with the aba, NBA.
52:20
I didn't go with Reggie White, Bill Parcells and Lawrence Taylor.
52:26
I went with Babe Ruth.
52:28
What if Harry Frase didn't need some money to fund his play?
52:37
No, no, Nanette.
52:39
He would have never sold Bruce to the, to the New York Yankees for $100,000.
52:47
And Babe Ruth would have remained with the Boston Red Sox.
52:51
What.
52:52
How would that have changed baseball?
52:55
What if Babe Ruth stayed with the Boston Red Sox?
53:00
And, you know, I obviously did a little research.
53:05
Ruth played for the Red Sox from 1914 to 1919.
53:10
They won the World Series in 1918.
53:14
Right.
53:14
Actually, they won the World Series in 1915.
53:20
They didn't win it again until 2004.
53:22
Right.
53:23
They won 15, 16, 17.
53:26
Didn't win it again until 2004.
53:29
The.
53:30
The.
53:31
He was there for five seasons and in that time he had 49 homers, 224 rubies, hit.308.
53:39
It was a heck of a starting pitcher.
53:41
89 wins, 46 losses, a 2.19 ERA.
53:45
Babe Ruth was phenomenal.
53:48
But like I said, after they sold Ruth to the Yankees, they appeared in a couple of World Series, but they didn't win again.
53:59
The Yankees, on the other hand, they were not a very good team before Babe Ruth got to them.
54:11
And I had that.
54:14
I had it marked down here.
54:17
But Ruth, the first year he was with the Yankees, they went 95 and 39 and.
54:26
And finished in third place.
54:27
And then the Yankees took off.
54:29
They won.
54:30
They finish him first in 1921, 22, 23, 26, 27, 28.
54:36
The Red Sox, after Ruth left, went fifth, fifth, last, seventh and last.
54:45
Absolutely crazy.
54:46
His first year with the Yankees, 54 home runs, 135 RBI and hit.376.
54:55
I mean, it is just amazing how this actually changed the course of baseball with the Yankees have gotten better without Ruth?
55:06
I think so.
55:08
I mean, they still had Bob Musil, Joe Dugan, Lou Gehrig, Earl Combs, Tony Lazzari, Mark Koenig, Bill Dickey.
55:17
They, they came and went over over the years.
55:20
They're pitching.
55:21
Sod her.
55:21
Panicked.
55:22
Wade Hoyt Earl, Carl Mays, Bob Sharkey.
55:26
I mean, the pitching wouldn't have been affected, but would the Yankees have been the New York Yankees as we know them today and with the Boston Red Sox sort of replace them with Babe Ruth in the lineup?
55:42
Would the Red Sox have been that dynastic team throughout the 1920s with Babe Ruth in The lineup.
55:51
How would that have changed the course of baseball history?
55:56
So I was.
55:57
I was.
55:57
I've always wondered that, and I thought, wow, this would be a.
56:01
A great time to bring that up.
56:03
Yeah, I think it's interesting.
56:05
Would Ruth have been Ruth?
56:06
Right.
56:07
I mean, he hit 29 home runs in 1919, and then all the way up to 54 in 1920.
56:13
How much of that increase was just his natural progression as a hitter, as a player, and how much of that was.
56:19
You know, obviously, Babe Ruth and New York in the 1920s were a perfect match, and he was probably in some ways, energized by that.
56:28
So it's probably some of both.
56:30
But would he have been the dominant Ruth had he stayed in Boston?
56:37
You wouldn't have had the house that Ruth built either.
56:39
Yeah, certainly true.
56:40
Some of this is also the New York effect, right?
56:44
I mean, it's like, it's.
56:44
It still lives on today in pro sports, right?
56:47
I mean, you know, Giannis is a.
56:48
Is a.
56:49
Is a wunderkind on the basketball court, but, you know, the day he becomes a New York Knick, you know, potentially,.
56:56
We don't want him.
56:57
We're good.
56:58
We don't need anybody new.
56:59
We don't want him.
57:01
Fair enough.
57:01
My point is that.
57:02
That New York is New York, right?
57:04
And, you know, if Sinatra is not being trite when he says, if you can make it here, I mean, but it's otherworldly, right?
57:14
You know, logical or not, right?
57:18
It's just.
57:19
It just brings hotter, wider spotlight.
57:22
If you're that good and even if you're like, okay, you can be led to, you know, grander heights, right?
57:31
So I don't know.
57:32
There's probably a bit of that effect.
57:34
It's certainly in hindsight, for sure, but I, you know, again, I think money troubles were still money troubles even after selling Babe Ruth in Boston.
57:41
Right.
57:41
So, you know, I'm not sure that.
57:43
That Ruth would have been able to carry on all that much longer by himself without a surrounding cast or.
57:52
Or.
57:53
Yeah, I'm not sure he.
57:54
I'm not sure he would have been able to soldier on and.
57:56
And make that team such a dynastic force that the Yankees ultimately became.
58:01
Yeah, they.
58:02
Ruth curse.
58:03
Yeah, there would have been no curse.
58:05
There's a lot.
58:06
A lot of.
58:06
A lot of different things.
58:07
I mean, you think the course.
58:10
How.
58:10
How if Babe Ruth had stayed with the Red Sox, how history would have changed Bas.
58:16
You know, baseball, it wouldn't be the same as.
58:20
As it is today.
58:21
It really wouldn't.
58:22
So we got A.
58:24
Just a couple minutes left, so I got a couple true false questions for.
58:27
For you guys.
58:29
Just.
58:29
Just some fun to wrap up today's show.
58:32
True or false.
58:35
In the 1961-62 NBA season, Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50.4 points per game.
58:45
True or false?
58:47
Absolutely true.
58:49
Won the mvp.
58:51
Absolutely true.
58:53
We got a true from Harv.
58:54
True.
58:55
We got a true from Tim.
58:57
The question is whether he won the MVP.
59:00
Correct.
59:01
No.
59:01
Russell wanted in 62.
59:02
That's exactly right.
59:04
Oh, I thought you were 50 points.
59:07
Okay, so will average 50.4 points per game and 25.7 rebounds per game.
59:15
Russell averaged 18.9 points per game and only 23.6 rebounds per game.
59:24
And he dominated the MVP vote.
59:27
He had two hundred and ninety seven votes to run to Wilt.
59:31
One hundred and fifty two.
59:32
Why do you.
59:33
Why was that?
59:35
I think it's the championship factor.
59:37
I think that Russell was part of a team that was just, Just so dominant and that was, you know, they were on their way to winning, what, nine championships, eight in a row or something.
59:49
Nine out of 10 years.
59:50
It was just a crazy thing.
59:52
Russell said in an interview years later that when he.
59:57
When the players would vote, which was like in the early 60s, that was when he would win them.
1:00:01
And then when they changed the rules to where, I guess it was the writers, I don't know who who voted next.
1:00:06
That.
1:00:06
That was when Wilt started winning.
1:00:07
I never looked up the veracity of that, but that was what Russell said.
1:00:11
Well, and Chamberlain won at that point.
1:00:13
Like, when he finally did start to win, he, like, won three or four.
1:00:17
Yeah, like four and five years or something like that.
1:00:19
Yeah.
1:00:19
Yeah.
1:00:20
Okay.
1:00:22
True or false.
1:00:24
There is a team that drafted two hall of Fame quarterbacks in the same draft.
1:00:39
True or false?
1:00:40
Can you at least give us a decade?
1:00:43
When they were drafted?
1:00:45
If.
1:00:46
If, if it's true or false.
1:00:52
Let's say the 1970s.
1:01:00
Drafted2 hall of Fame quarterbacks in the same draft.
1:01:04
Would it have been the Raiders?
1:01:08
Is it a true or false question?
1:01:09
It's a true.
1:01:11
I'm gonna say.
1:01:13
Go ahead.
1:01:13
I'm sorry, Harv.
1:01:14
Go ahead.
1:01:14
I was gonna say troops.
1:01:15
I was thinking Daryl lamonica and Ken Stabler.
1:01:18
I'm gonna say false just because I can't.
1:01:20
Lamonica's not in the hall of Fame, so I.
1:01:22
I'm not.
1:01:22
I thought.
1:01:23
No, I'm not sure who it would be, so I'm gonna say false.
1:01:26
Oh, I'm thinking of Jim Plunkett.
1:01:27
Never mind.
1:01:28
I'm gonna say True.
1:01:29
Only because that person probably didn't become the star, that they didn't become stars.
1:01:37
All this at the same time.
1:01:38
So that's what I'm.
1:01:39
Yeah, yeah.
1:01:40
Tell you who.
1:01:41
In 1979, the answer is true.
1:01:44
In 1979, the Kansas City Royals drafted Dan Marino with the 99th pick in the fourth round of the baseball draft.
1:01:54
And in the 18th round, with a 463rd pick, they drafted outfielder John Elway.
1:02:02
Trick question.
1:02:04
Wow.
1:02:06
It's awesome.
1:02:06
And it was 1979, so it was well before, you know, a couple years before they were drafted.
1:02:13
Last one, Another NFL question.
1:02:17
No kicker has ever won the NFL MVP award.
1:02:22
True or false?
1:02:24
That's false,.
1:02:27
Barv.
1:02:29
Oh, I'm being tripped up by Dan's response.
1:02:34
He's very confident about it.
1:02:37
I was gonna say false.
1:02:39
I mean, I was gonna say true, True, true, true.
1:02:41
But hearing Dan just down how confident he is, I have a feeling I'm wrong.
1:02:46
Repeat.
1:02:48
No.
1:02:49
No kicker has ever won the NFL MVP award.
1:02:54
False.
1:02:56
It is false.
1:02:57
In 1982, in the strike shortened season, Mark Mosley won the NFL mvp.
1:03:04
Wasn't.
1:03:04
Yeah, it wasn't.
1:03:05
Blander.
1:03:08
Well, guys, this has been a lot of fun.
1:03:10
I, I really appreciate you all taking some time out of your evening to join me, despite the little hiccup we had with our little technical hiccup at the start of the show.
1:03:21
But I think I, I had, I had a lot of fun and I, and I hope you guys would consider coming back again, do this a couple times, you know, couple, two times a year.
1:03:33
And yeah, thanks for being a part of the first ever Sports Forgotten Heroes Sports Tavern, Tim Hanlon.
1:03:40
Thank you.
1:03:41
Harv Aaronson.
1:03:42
Thank you.
1:03:42
Dan Newman.
1:03:43
Thank you.
1:03:43
It's been a lot of fun.
1:03:45
I had a blast.
1:03:46
I want to do it again.
1:03:47
Absolutely.
1:03:48
This was great.
1:03:49
Thank you, Warren.
1:03:51
Thank you to all for tuning in today.
1:03:54
This was a lot of fun.
1:03:55
And like you, I learned a lot.
1:03:57
Dan's case for Dick Cannonball Redding to be elected into baseball's hall of Fame.
1:04:03
Tim's passion for soccer and his case for Shep Messing.
1:04:07
And of course, Harv and his love for everything Pittsburgh.
1:04:11
I hope you all enjoyed today's show.
1:04:13
And when I come back in a.
1:04:14
Few months with another episode of the Sports Tavern, there'll be a few new surprises for you.
1:04:21
Thanks again to my guest today, Dan.
1:04:23
Newman from hello Old Sports.
1:04:25
Tim Hanlon from Good Seeds still available.
1:04:28
And Harv Aronson from Total Sports Recall.
1:04:31
And thanks to all of you and I'll See you.
1:04:33
Next time on Sports Forgotten Heroes.