Latest / Follow the Leighder / From Strict Pentecostal to Liberation Theology | Naiomi Gonzalez

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From Strict Pentecostal to Liberation Theology | Naiomi Gonzalez · Follow the Leighder

• Leigh/@followtheleighder: Howdy folks and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Lee Larson, and joining me from Oklahoma today, we have a fantastic guest, Naomi Gonzalez. Welcome to the studio. naiomi gonzalez: Thank you so much for having me. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Y'all, y'all gotta check out y'all gotta check out Naomi's background. Listen to this, listen to this. Naomi identifies as a non-binary Puerto Rican who proudly claims the title of professional nerd. She is currently working on her master's in theological studies, has her MDV, an MA in Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies, and an MA in history. They have a passion for pushing back against harmful and oppressive theology. Thank you for your work. And advocating for a faith that is radically inclusive and just. Now, as of recently, we we it is wow, to watch a war with a Middle Eastern background, to watch the rise of Christian nationalism with a theological studies background and a history background and an IMDEV. Those are really big topics. Was were were you always drawn into either Foreign politics or foreign learning or religious learning growing up? What was your background growing up? naiomi gonzalez: So I grew up Pentecostal, so strict, charismatic, fundamentalist. but it was a Pentecostal that they encouraged you to read the Bible, they encourage you to study the history, of course, through their particular lens. and so I was a nerd when I converted, when I had a conversion experience at eleven or twelve, I just started like reading the Bible and loving it. I loved going to church and our service for the most part. Sometimes it'd get a bit boring because the services could last between two to five hours. and sometimes like the sermons got repetitive, but when it wasn't repetitive, I enjoyed it. Like I would I was the nerd that at twelve or thirteen would be watching typically 'cause I was conservative then like the fundamentalist. So like I would be watching like pastors talk about why evolution was wrong and I'd be taking my notes. I'd be like fiercely studying and being like, Okay, this is what this Bible verse stands for, things like that and like 12 years old. And then when I learned that seminary existed, because what I where I grew up in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Moravian College, then now it's a university, had a seminary. And I like looked up what that was and I was like, I'm gonna go to a seminary, even though I didn't really know what it was. I was like, I get to study religion at the college level and more, that's gonna be me. so at 1213, I was already doing that, I was already reading like books again from the fundamentalist viewpoint. but still, and then asking and harass asking or harassing my Sunday school teachers with random questions. but they were pretty good at letting me ask those questions, even though they didn't always know the answer. so I was already like into that. In terms of the politics, so this was before I mean Christian nationalism was still was a thing, it was called something else, but the specific Pentecostal church I went to was Hispanic Pentecostal. So although they had beliefs like queer being queer is wrong. prayer belonging to school, they were less concerned about actual politics than with the fact that they thought Jesus was coming in like a few days. And so we had to be prepared. So their whole viewpoint was, well, yes, the US should be a Christian nation, but that's not gonna happen until Jesus comes and destroys everything. So we're just gonna keep doing our thing and preaching the gospel, but we're not gonna we're not gonna be too involved in politics. In fact, I remember some people, it was in the two thousands. So I was talking to members of the congregation about who they were voting for and they some were like, yeah, Obama. I don't like I think it was McCain back then or Romney, I can't remember. they were just totally against that. so they they talked about politics and they were into it, but it wasn't like obsessive like we have to Leigh/@followtheleighder: huh. naiomi gonzalez: personally change. We were like, we're gonna spread the gospel. we believe in these things and if you don't you're gonna hell. But we also Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: don't think anything's gonna change until Jesus comes anyway, so we're not gonna obsess about it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. Well, talk to me. I I I love this this arc that you've you've taken us through. Can you share a little bit about the draw? you know, you already have the Pentecostal. What was it look like to to expand or evolve in in your spirituality, your the I'm so sorry, I am getting a phone call. we're gonna edit that out. Okay. Can you talk to us? Thank you so much for taking us through that journey of of your childhood. Can you talk to us about what that pull was or what that when you start going into seminary, you're already questioning things, you're wrestling with really large, you know, theological questions. what how did that evolve once you got into institutions? naiomi gonzalez: So it actually happened before in high school when I was I was a senior in high school. And at that point I was getting tired of Pentecostalism because we were the hardcore ones. Like women had to wear skirts below our knees. We couldn't wear makeup, we had to have long hair. Like we were church was our life. We couldn't go to school dances, we couldn't listen to secular music. we couldn't go to movie theaters. We were hardcore. So by the time I was a senior in high school, I went to a private school, a Moravian private private school. so kind of religious based but kind of not like it was based in the Maravan tradition, but they weren't like specifically a religious based school. So by the time I got there, I was surrounded by mostly people who were different faiths or not Christian, and so or atheists who were asking questions about the faith and about me and my faith. And so like challenging me, not in a mean way, but in a way that made me think. And then also by the time I was a senior, I was like, I want to go to prom and I want to wear dresses, short dresses. And I can't because of the tr denomination I was in. And also I think I'm queer. Or I think by then in the 2000s we used bisexual or gay. I was bisexual. So I was like, you know what? I'm tired of Pentecostalism. So one day I just was like, I'm not gonna go there anymore. and then I went to school and started had a religion class where I had to learn about we had to do a topic. So I did homosexuality in the Bible and I learned, wait, there are Christians who believe that homosexuality is okay. And it like opened my eyes. And since Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. naiomi gonzalez: then I was like, no, thank you. Then I went to college and relig studied in majored in religious studies. And I was like, Wait, so Moses didn't write the first five books of the Bible? Or like they believe multiple authors wrote this? Or we're not supposed to take the Bible. It was like my eyes opened, like, and then I learned about Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: feminist theology there, black theology, liberation theology. Like those three were the main main ones in college. And I was like, Whoa. So there are multiple ways to be a Christian. and then seminary just continued even more. Although I have to admit I'm a bit, how do I say this? I'm a bit difficult. So I like to rock the boat sometimes. So I got into seminary and I was like, I was still struggling with my faith, but I was like, I'm a I'm a Christian atheist or something that like, whatever, that was like, I was gonna be in your face about it. And the professors were like, whatever. It was the other students, the other s first year students. and this was the first time I went to seminaries that were just like, No, you can't do that. It was like it was hilarious. just the way I was and then the way people reacted to me. But also I was just like still trying to figure out if there was room for me in Christianity in general. just because even though college expanded my mind, I was still in the main lane churches I went to, the white main lane churches I went to was still a bit more conservative. So not quite fundamentalist, not evangelical, but still, you know, still questioning about whether queer people can be ordained and things like that. So I was still struggling with, well, if I can't be that, then maybe I'm not actually a Christian. Maybe I don't believe in God. so when I Leigh/@followtheleighder: Hmm. naiomi gonzalez: went to seminary, I was just like, I'm just gonna put it out there. And if people have a problem, they can deal with it. And of course no one had a problem. It was just me being annoying. Well, pe they were very gracious and made it clear that there was room for me within Christianity. but seminary was like really fantastic. It really helped me see how expansive Christianity can be while also providing me with the theoretical framework Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. naiomi gonzalez: to start critiquing it more. There was a little bit about that in college. In college I did a research project with a professor on Christian understandings of sacrifice and war culture. So how Christian understandings of like the atonement have been co-opted by the religious right, I think it was called then, and I think the Tea Party was just beginning. This was back in the day, early two thousands. and so how religious language on the Atonement and Jesus' death was being used by politicians of both parties, but maybe the Republican Party, to justify the war and terror and to put to essentially critique Islam in ways that wasn't really helpful to anyone when they were Islamophobic. So I started that in undergrad, seeing the connections between faith and politics, Christian faith and politics and oppression. And then seminary just kind of helped me expand that a bit. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I like what you had to say about is there room for me in Christianity? Is there room for me on this side? Because that is part of what drives us towards the spirit is not feeling like there's room for us in the flesh. And like that's a really hard place to be in community. And and finding where we are and and dealing with our own cause we do. We show up to seminary wounded. We are a bunch of wounded healers and and and to come out or to work through a lot of this is is is beautiful. to have the voice, the language, the reasons why we why exclusion happens and why oppression happens and what we can do about it, which is point ourselves and others towards a radically inclusive and just faith. Can you share with the audience what is liberation theology and and kind of talk about what that looks like for you in your personal life? naiomi gonzalez: So when I learned about liberation theology in college, I was like, whoa, this exists. So the liberation theology that I'm talking about, or the original liberation theology, I don't like that language, but just use it, came from arose from Latin America in the 50s and 60s and uses a Marxist frame economic framework to critique oppression, capitalism, colonialism. and it advocates and for a preferential option for the poor, meaning that the focus is on the poor, like God sides with the poor. It doesn't mean that God doesn't love everyone else, but it elevates the poor from like being viewed as a side character that is just for charity to being at the center of the faith. So that not only had massive biblical interpretive ramifications, because I was used to not reading the Bible from that viewpoint, but reading it from a strict fundamentalist viewpoint that has less focus on material. at least the the version I grew up in, we were not prosperity gospel, Pentecostals. So it was less about the material world and more about you need to do this so to go to heaven. So what liberation theology focuses on is advocating for people in the here and now. Whether or not there's a heaven or not is not essential. concern. and you find people who will debate that in liberation theology. so that was really eye-opening. And then that was kind of an entryway to the different forms of theology that talk that talked about like focusing on theology through the lens of women or through the lens of black people or through the lens of an American Hispanic people or queer people is what I'm really into studying now, queer theology. So that really sort of was like the gateway to understanding that theology doesn't have to be understood in a colonial way or a racist way, or even because I wouldn't say that my childhood they didn't really talk about race, even though they were Hispanic. so that but it wasn't it wasn't liber liberative. It was on you need to believe A, and C or you're gonna go to hell. and if you don't believe in everything we do, you're not gonna be saved. That was their focus, with a little bit of politics thrown into it. So liberation theology was kind of the gateway to help me understand that, hey, theology is so much bigger than I was told or taught, and God might be bigger than I than I was taught and told. And it also helped me realize that how we do theology matters. 'Cause it's not just a neutral practice where it's like, okay, I just believe this. Well, what you believe has practical replications. If you believe everyone you talk to is going, huh, well, that might explain why you act certain ways. Like that will explain why twelve, thirteen year old me was like going around handing our daily bread devotionals to people on the bus because I wanted them to be saved, or I would make little gospel. I was like such a like nerd. I would like record myself preaching. And then hand them out because I want to be the next Billy Graham. yes, cringe, I know. So, but that made sense with the theology I had taught. Like, you need to spread the gospel or people are gonna go to hell. so likewise, what you believe about God, if if you believe about God, if you believe God have has practical ramifications on how you see other people and how you move the world. And so liberation theology Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. naiomi gonzalez: helped me see that like. If you believe that God blesses you because you pray or you give 10% to the church, what does that mean for the poor who might be doing that? But God is a blessing for some reason. If you believe that God sides with the strong and powerful, what does that mean when the United States decides to invade a different country and we win? so that was like the first time I realized theology isn't neutral. It has practical ramifications and we need to explore that, whether or not we stay within certain theological schools is less important than what the theological schools or the theology we affirm is leading us to treat other people. Leigh/@followtheleighder: That's a fantastic point. I am much like you drawn to these sort of nuanced, kind of complex situations where pure quote unquote or singular ideologies, theologies do not hold up once reality hits in real ways. Like, you know, one for example that I was really observing about when I w I I just I went to the Philippines last month with Disciples of Christ denomination. And because Disciples of Christ is quote unquote libertarian, we have three tenants. We have no real cr we don't have a creed, like all of our churches well, I guess we're going back into Stone Campbell, but like really there's a lot you can have evangelical churches, but you can also have very liberal churches. And so there were ten pastors and we all like spanned like the the kind of political spectrum on this trip. And it was interesting to have experience myself, but also to watch ev like people realize like for one, the evangelical person conservative Christian pastor came and was when as we were walking around villages of abject poverty and squalor and was like, hmm, maybe Maybe a woman maybe my sanctity of life theology is too narrow. Maybe a woman should be able to make a decision whether or not to bring a child into conditions like this. Maybe like not having human intervention at all is a bad, you know, he and it was like but it was big for him to to like be somewhere in a harsh environment and see that maybe women should have birth control. Because that went against and then you had And then you had some folks on the left too that were like really struggling with like what to do God, military America, communism, capitalism. I mean, like it it was just it was a very big, heavy trip. It was focused on colonialization or colonialism and what the United States and Christian church has done to folks out there. And I think that is so important for us as theologians to to to know is that things do get really on on so many different sides of the the the spectrum that like things get murky. Things get when people have to survive, their ideology is not clean. And it's hard to like find and build a book of morals and then be like, all right, this one, this is it, and it's gonna work forever. And it's like it duh, but like thou shalt always speak the truth. Am I always gonna be honest with like a kidnapper? know. Like I or a hostage situ you know what I mean? Like it's like once you see like how people survive or have had to, particularly in refugee war, it's just wild. But I I really I'm I'm just yapping at this point. And this is all about you. But can you go back to talking about this war class you talked about in college? I know that this was a while ago. You have studied many books and tests and essays since then, written essays. But this particular war class and theology that can you can you speak a little bit more to it? particularly with my background in military chaplaincy, I have a lot of listeners that are veterans and and would like to hear more or if you have any resources or, you know, folks, you know, to point to on this particular topic, by all means, please. naiomi gonzalez: to because yeah it was it was back in the day 2008 to 2012 but so Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right, right. naiomi gonzalez: I worked with doc Dr. Kelly Denton Borhog. she was my advisor and mentor at Moravian College, now a university and she was working on books she was working on writing her first book. she has two books I believe. the second one's on is on moral injury because that was also really starting to take off in during that time period like people studying and acknowledging what it is. particularly in veterans and military populations. And then she was working her first book on Christianity. So I can't remember how I got interested in that specifically. I took a class with her and got along with her. I remember that. but I remember for my project, one of the things that I did was I went and interviewed because my sister, one of my sisters and her husband lives near Fort Stewart. So I went and interviewed veterans and military people about their religious belief and beliefs and whether or not that impacted their decision to serve in the military. and I got to talk to different people from different eras and different ethnicities and races. And I think in that, the people I picked, it wasn't really a thing. but in the research and the books that we were reading, we were seeing that at least in some parts of the country, religion, religious faith and military were tied together. and then you know, I was finding, I think this was before memes, or maybe memes were just taken off, but was finding like meme like things online that would be like only two people die for you, the American soldier and Jesus Christ. So one of my jobs was to compile like those sayings and those languages and those pop culture things for my professor to incorporate in the book. and also how the military was seeping into I guess popular culture, at least the United States. 'cause I think that was also the time Katy Perry's song. I forget she has a song where she's like she joins the Marines after she gets broken up with and it's like a one long one long app yes. So so Leigh/@followtheleighder: my gosh I haven't thought about that in so long. Yes. I can't remember what it is, but I know the music video you're talking about. That is so funny. naiomi gonzalez: Yes, I have the I have this so like my thing my part of my job was also to like find those things and bring it to my professor so that she could like examine it and see if it was useful for her her book. so and it was like noticing because now we talk about Christian nationalism, but it's been a thing. Like that mixture has Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. naiomi gonzalez: been a thing for since America was founded, I think. Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. naiomi gonzalez: so it was just like but I had never noticed it. It'd be like, yeah. course there's gonna be an ad for the Navy in the movie theaters or of yeah there's recruitment in the in the the low income neighborhood I lived in. Like that was just the way it was. I didn't really think about it until my professor was like, well actually this says some things about theology and also our values as a nation. So that's where I started learning about you know the military industrial complex and then you know the ri rise of the religious right. And so then I once I saw it, I continued. Even when I moved a bit away from that subject, I still see it now. well, now it's more like in your face because of Christian nationalism. But even back then, with the rise of the Tea Party and things like that, and even the religious right, it was still a thing. And even liberals were immune from it. they would still have like might not be as in your face about it. And I think it's become a bit more polarized now. but even then, you know, they would still use. some of the similar language about sacrifice and and religious and religion that I saw some of the more conservative peers use except it wasn't necessarily tied to a specific party back then. So Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, yeah. naiomi gonzalez: that was like so I was like I honestly did the research project because I want to be able to study theology and maybe make some money. And I was just like, whoa, what is what is going on? We visit Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. naiomi gonzalez: a recruiting center that they had. That had like video games and things like that. That was fun. I was like, I can see why people join. This seems like fun. and I Leigh/@followtheleighder: yeah. naiomi gonzalez: appreciated the first they had a cute recuter too, like I'm a goner with cute people. But anyway, who talked about like the values like belonging and commoder, you know, commadery? Is that how you say it? Like, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. naiomi gonzalez: so I was like, man, I I can definitely see why. and then of course he Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: talked about the bonuses and things like that, which were fine and I can understand why people went there, but it was more of like the image he was presenting. he didn't use religious language so much at that point. but when I went to visit my sister and the military base, there was more religious language, but that's because it was a conservative Georgia. So there were a lot of churches that catered to the military. so they had more of a more explicit mixture of religion and faith. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and thank you so much for bringing that up. It has been going on for yes. Uh-huh. Definitely since the beginning of the United States. And really, I mean, w it's Christian imperialism. It's been going on since Constantine. But like, I mean, this just this is some old I mean, it just evolves. The face of power evolves and it's just using Christ in such a way that you're like, that's not even the story, bro. Like, whoa. You who's this guy? And they're like, it's built Jesus. It's G I Jesus. And you're like, okay. they're like, we're gonna put him on high testosterone. And you're like, what? no, apparently they are. So give them an AK, I guess. But absolutely, this is and and what's interesting about you talking about this intersection. is that they do heavily recruit in the South and looking at certain poverty levels, looking at education levels, like they know who they want to turn into a a grunt, a follower. And in a lot of ways, ha what if we've made a mess. how do you even begin to to do that? But in in a lot of other ways it is the only pathway for a lot of rural people. or it is the largest, not the only. I never want to limit anyone, but it is a significant pathway to get out of their existing circumstances. The other problem with it, and I feel, you know, a lot of people join when they're young and they have no idea this concept of empire and imperialism. They heard travel, get in shape, all you gotta do is wear this camo. And like fire a gun, let's go. And they're like, cool, that's better than whatever I've got going on in small smile my small town. You know, I've got purpose, I've got structure, I've got discipline, I've got camaraderie. But then that institution, the military institution, will chew you up. It'll chew you up when you got the religious right involved, calling the shots of who and who is not a right Christian. You know, the create you were talking about that at the very beginning. Oof. Both of us get a little prickly on that one. They're like, No, you don't get spiritual care because You're Wiccan and you're like, huh? or you're an other. And you're like, okay. but you got the intersect, but you've also just like you've got the real, it's not just like yes, the fall slides, but you it it harms real people, Naomi. Like real people get harmed. Can you talk about your journey as you're navigating harmful and oppressive theology, advocacy? Can you talk about either the harm you've experienced or some of the stories you've heard and and how and why that motivates you to keep going? naiomi gonzalez: So I mentioned before that I'm queer. So that was one of the first things because when I grew up in Augasto, you couldn't be queer, or I guess like I said, they we didn't use that language back then because I think it was it was viewed as a slur. but so you had to be heterosexual or sorry, yeah, you had to one man and one woman. Sex is for marriage only, and then women had defined roles, like we like I said, the dress. We had dress certain ways and men had to dress certain ways too. Like they couldn't wear they couldn't have earrings. That was like that was a big controversy in our church when the style Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. naiomi gonzalez: was for men to have some earrings. That did not make our congregation happy. They had a they wanted them to look presentable and wear long pants though for the services, things like that. so there was very Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: strict gender gender norms. though ironically, women could be pastors, which I think part of it was theology, but part of it was necessity. Because the pat so this was a church where essentially we raised our own money. we were Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. naiomi gonzalez: initially part of a denomination, but it was a small Hispanic denomin Pentecostal denomination. So they didn't really have money. And we eventually broke with them. So the both the pastor and his wife had to work full time. so they were essentially co pastors. so whenever I would mention, hey, there are other Pentecostals or other fundamentalists who believe women can't work. He's like, no, the Bible doesn't say that. So that was something that was very interesting is it seemed like I don't want to say in a derogatory way, but it seemed like they kind of picked and choose chose some of their well, which we all do, but they don't fundamentalists aren't always the best at acknowledging it. but I think most of us honestly aren't always the best at acknowledging when we pick and choose our beliefs. but Out of necessity, women had to play a vital role in the church, including leadership, because they made up the majority of our congregation. And because the pastor, the male pastor, couldn't have the congregation without his wife, you know, working full-time as well and taking on the load. but like their knowledge of their understanding of being queer was very harmful. There they had not so great understanding of mental illness, which was blamed on Satan. they they believed you could take medicine, like they weren't. Completely anti-medicine, but they believed it was that something that Satan wants to get at you. So that was also something else that was very harmful. so moving away from that was like kind of very li liberative. but then when I went to the more mainline churches, I saw that they also had some harmful theology. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. naiomi gonzalez: so like a lot, a lot of them, especially, you know, in the last few like 10 years or so, they're they become more affirming towards queer people. So they they will be like, yeah, all are welcome. And like they will talk about like, yes, we support queer people. obviously that varies by denomination and church. so they got that going. But then when it came to race, they weren't always the best. In many of these spaces, Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: I'd be one of the few people of color there. and then they were better at mental health issues and that they didn't blame it on Satan. But sometimes that was the only way that they were better. Like they acknowledged the medical side of it, but they didn't really bring any support to it about it. And then a lot of the congregations I went to were more middle class. So I'm even with all my education, I am not middle class, unfortunately. so they didn't always their understanding of poverty was very much here's what we can do to help in terms of charity. It's like that's great, but there are systematic issues Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. naiomi gonzalez: that you may or may not be a part of that need to be addressed. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: and they were they were starting some of the churches were having those conversations, but starting to and then also depending on the congregation, some of them were close to centers of power. so some of them were pretty much big deals in their diocese or or their synods or I went to disciples' church ones. I forget what they call, but their region. so they were close to various political leaders, which I'm not saying is a good or bad thing, it just is. But I don't think they always acknowledge that. Or if they Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: did, they acknowledged it solely as a good thing. and it can be a good thing. But it I also want to ask well, what does this look like in practice? Like that you're so close to these centers of power. how is that playing out and how you treat certain groups that these politicians may not enjoy or may not agree with. so even in the more liberal churches that I've been to, there was still this harmful theology, but but sometimes I got the impression that they thought just because they weren't fundamentalist that they were okay. And it's like, no no, you also have issues that you need to deal with and navigate and wrestle with. It's not the same issues as our more conservative and fundamentalist peer peers. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, and thank you for for sharing that with me. Thank you for just kind of walking through like again the nuance and complexity of how much this hurts and harms people in different ways. And again, the mainline church is just as guilty. I mean Of Brian Kaler somewhere around here. He wrote Baptizing America, which is all about how Protestant mainline churches were direct directly responsible for a lot of the policies around the word God in American texts, government texts. And it was Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, Anglican, you know, it was it was not these MAGA exnats that we're seeing right now. It was Ivy League folks that were like, yeah, let's God bless America. Put that on the coinage. and and that is a real thing for us to have to swallow as progressives. Like, what are we doing that we are not paving the path towards weaponizing something? Because the other side of it is realistically speaking, if you're going to create. quote unquote, a state or a government or some political body, and you designate it as secular, which is f like you know, okay, you go secular, like I on the whole, any in normal society, the language is going to be secular, but it is inevitably going to push religious communities out into the margins. And then those margins, then then they'll coalesce and they'll rise. And so Almost as if you were just like, if you were gonna plan a government and you wanted it to be secular, we just need to plan for religious uprisings because these people want it, dude. Naomi, they like really want to take over. they do not like that we have to come together in the public square and not accept their fundamentalist theology. You're like, I'm this isn't even science. And they're like, Well, we reject your science. And I'm like, Well. It's not it doesn't work like but I okay, sure like okay. But you know what I mean? It's just like a whole different thing that these people or this sort of entity is always gonna be there. And it is something we need to address, we need to name because I mean they want they want total power. Total power. and that's a really scary place to be. Again, I'm drifting off. Can you talk about you we've talked about power and oppressive theology? We are talking right now about Christian nationalism in the United States, but you also have a background in history and in Middle Eastern and Islamic studies. Do you see any concerns with the United States and our religious rhetoric that you may have come across in your Middle Eastern studies? It could be towards military, could be towards government, could be towards women, but sometimes we start seeing patterns, especially Especially how much the United States loves to demonize other people in other countries. I'm like, hmm, you know, it's funny, you got some similar behaviors actually. can you can you share a little bit about your knowledge, pattern recognition, just any concerns you have for us Americans, stemming from your Middle Eastern and history background? naiomi gonzalez: Yeah, so when I did the MA Middle Eastern Islamic Studies, part of it was focusing on the American policy side and the American intelligence side, just because I wanted a bigger base on that. and so, and then of course, you know, some some on the Islamic side, but then I realized, wow, this is really fascinating and also really complicated. I might have to stick with Christianity. But one thing I definitely noticed Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. naiomi gonzalez: too was so this was I think twenty sixteen to twenty eighteen. man, I feel so old. Time is just going by. But anyway, so not too long ago though. And so one of the things again that I noticed was the continued use of religion. this was during Yeah, this was during Trump's first presidency. so he was just getting started. So then we I really started seeing the rhetoric on religion and faith like because before, yes, it was there and it was intense, but it seemed to be more of a minority. and you know, there would be ridiculed, like when, you know, Bush would say something, people would immediately call it out. and then of Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: course, you know, the Democrats would use religious language slightly different way, slightly, I guess, more benevolent way, although still problematic way. Then the first Trump presidency hands seemed to be all in your face. And I was just like, huh, I I'm not sure this is this is a great thing that's happening. And yeah, it was just very disturbing to see. And it's not to say that they weren't concerned about some of the countries that will be viewed, like, you know, Afghanistan. but it was also like I'm not sure how our military might is going to fix some of these issues, especially I I guess I'm not sure how killing a bunch of civilians is going to help us impl implement democracy in these countries. Like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. naiomi gonzalez: also some of these countries have been our allies. So we've also been supporting and providing funding to them. Even though on the other hand, when we go after our enemies, we say they're anti-democratic. And I'm like, you can't have it both ways because some of the countries that we're Allies with are not necessarily pro-democracy either. But why are we going after these other countries and not holding our allies accountable? So that's one thing I also noticed was pretty disturbing. And then also just Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. naiomi gonzalez: I had a class with Michael Hayden, who was the C the director of the CIA. So that was very fascinating. And I mainly did it because I was had also been studying on my own. you know, the CIA and their torture program. So I want to hear from their point of view Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. naiomi gonzalez: what they thought and how bad it was. And so that was that was a fascinating class just to be able to because I was also mainly with other people who want to be in the CIA or FBI. And so that was kind of like the lone, I don't know, the lone radical I guess, saying random stuff that he enjoyed, but the other students were like, can't ask that. But anyway, it was also just interesting just seeing How he was also strongly against Trump though. So he would mention, like, no, this is not how the CIA works. we're not supposed to like we have like morals, we have stances, the these are the codes that we're supposed to have. And Trump is just knocking all of that down. So that was also fascinating, just to see, even within the institutions that I'm most critical of, regardless of who's in charge, they had they had certain norms that they upheld. And they of course also viewed themselves as protecting democracy, even if I was like, I don't know if we have the same definition. But even they were also just like, Trump is going too far. So that was also something that was fascinating to see that I was sometimes on the side of the people that normally I have very little in common with. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you have shared so much about you know, we've talked about your journey. We've talked about the harm. We've talked about different perspectives and concerns. Can you now talk about hope and where and how we can find hope and joy and continuing to s to to show up for this fight? Because it's a it's a long, tough one. naiomi gonzalez: So my history degree actually helps with that because one of the things I studied was different time periods. So I studied I think Latin America, colonial Latin America, colonial United States, modern United States and modern Latin America. And one thing that gave me hope was that even in the midst of the craziness and violence and the way Christianity has been used to go to further oppression, there were always individuals who stood up and said no. This is not the faith I believed in. there were always individuals who were like, no, slavery is wrong, or massacring indigenous people. That's not that's not the faith that I have in. Like, even when they were surrounded by people who were like, No, this is the faith that we believed in, there were always people speaking out. You know, during the Vietnam War, of course, we saw people who were pushing back against the rhetoric of you have to support our troops by supporting the war. so that to me gives me hope in Latin America. that was a various countries had their own dirty words where people were being horrifically massacred and tortured. And there were always individuals who were like, this is not right. Even when the established church, like Roman Catholic Church, which had a complicated history with various of the country, sometimes siding with the country, sometimes speaking out against them, there were still individuals, individual priests and nuns, even when their leaders were working with the dictators. They were saying, no, this is absolutely not okay. and they spoke out. So for me, the hope is found in the people who are resisting and who are speaking out and advocating even when it doesn't look like things are going to get better. I'll be honest, sometimes it is a bit hard because I'm always on social media. I spend too much time on social media and I see the people who I'm like, okay, we can work together. like arguing about everything under the sun. and so that Leigh/@followtheleighder: Everything. naiomi gonzalez: gives me a little less hope. But then there are still always people who seem to rise above the fray. So for me, looking at those who are trying to make a difference, even in the face of impossible odds, are what give me hope. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Amen. Amen. Well Naomi, you've been absolutely fantastic today. Can you talk about where folks can follow or learn more about you? Because like as you've barely scratched the surface today, wealth of information. How can people learn more about your theology and what you're up to? naiomi gonzalez: Yeah, so I have a substack. Let me see. It's faithfully radical Christian dot substack dot com, I believe. and then I'm also on Facebook. to be honest, I'm rarely on Facebook, but you can find it under Faithfully Radical Christian and also TikTok and Instagram. same name, Faithfully Radical Christian. same logo. so yeah, if you'd like to support my writing, fa The Faithfully Radical Soaps Christian Faithfully Radical Christian Soapstack is the best bet. You can just sign up for free and you get notified every time I blog. but I'm also on the other social media sites. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I think that is fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us today. It has been lovely to have you. Folks, let me know what you thought of this episode down in the comments. You know the drill. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. I am your host, Lee Larson. This has been another episode of Follow the Leader. And until next time, see ya.