Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / The Power of Productive Struggle: How Snorkl Elevates Student Learning, with Jon Laven

Transcript

The Power of Productive Struggle: How Snorkl Elevates Student Learning, with Jon Laven · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:11
Welcome to the Integrate This podcast. Thank
0:13
you for joining us this summer. As we bring together
0:17
another special guest on our program, we're really
0:21
pleased to be joined by John Lavin today. John
0:24
is a teacher and instructional coach and also
0:28
co -founder of Snorkel. Before he began building
0:32
Snorkel, he had spent 10 years as a high school
0:36
math teacher, teaching both in Nevada and of
0:40
course, David and Ari. our home state of Minnesota
0:43
as well. So welcome to the program, John. Glad
0:46
to have you. Great to be here. Thanks for having
0:48
me. John, let's let's start with your journey.
0:53
How did you first get involved in education and
0:57
how have those experiences shaped your approach
1:00
to learning and technology? Yeah, I started as
1:04
a teacher about 10 years ago and I taught high
1:06
school math. And I think one of the things I
1:11
really wanted to be true in my math classroom
1:13
was that I wanted my students to be sharing and
1:15
talking more. I wanted to be true about their
1:17
thinking. I really tried to do that in all sorts
1:22
of different ways. I actually didn't use a lot
1:25
of technology in my own classroom. But when I
1:28
moved back to Minnesota, I kept on teaching.
1:31
I was an instructional coach for a short period
1:33
of time. And in around 2022, one of my good friends
1:38
called me. His name is Jeff. And he had been
1:41
a fifth grade teacher in the same district as
1:44
I taught in Las Vegas. And he said he had seen
1:48
some students. are some teachers asking students
1:52
to record their thinking during the pandemic
1:54
from when they were working from home. And we
1:57
thought that was really interesting and really
1:59
worthwhile to have students record their thinking.
2:01
And so it sort of sparked us, got us started
2:03
on this journey of what would be a really rich,
2:07
meaningful way for students to share their thinking
2:10
and got us building Snorkel. And so Snorkel is
2:13
like my first sort of... time dipping my toes
2:16
in the water in the world of EdTech. It's been
2:19
a really awesome journey and I'm really lucky
2:21
to be able to share it with so many people. Yeah,
2:26
it sounds like, and I remember teaching through
2:28
the pandemic too, that that was just a way that,
2:31
you know, when you couldn't be with those students
2:33
face -to -face having that way that you could
2:36
actually... listen to them reflect, listen to
2:39
them explain, and it really did get to the heart
2:42
of what they were trying to learn. And I remember
2:46
there was another Minnesota company, and I'm
2:49
sure you're probably familiar with Flipgrid,
2:51
which became Flip, that kind of sparked some
2:54
of that same stuff. you know, was that part of
2:58
the inspiration behind it too? Do you think like
3:01
they did they have an influence in the direction
3:03
that you decided to go and or have there been
3:05
other experiences that kind of help lend to this
3:09
product coming out when it did? Yeah, I think
3:13
we definitely drew some inspiration from Flipgrid.
3:16
I think what we saw was teachers were teachers
3:18
were using a variety of different tools at that
3:20
time. during distance learning trying to gather
3:23
their students thinking. I think some were using
3:25
Flipgrid, some were using Screencastify, some
3:28
were using other things, just QuickTime and Jamboard
3:32
and stuff like that. I think the experience there
3:36
was like you would take that video and you would
3:39
upload it to your teacher's Google Drive folder
3:41
and then as a teacher you'd maybe take some time
3:44
to watch all those. And we thought that was interesting
3:49
and worthwhile, and at the same time, it would
3:52
take a long time to watch all those videos as
3:54
a teacher. And so when we first started, we sort
3:56
of actually started with this idea of we were
3:58
going to be a social version of Khan Academy.
4:02
And our original premise was around we were going
4:03
to have students record their thinking, and then
4:06
they were going to watch their peers thinking
4:08
and give each other feedback. AI wasn't part
4:11
of this at all. And so that was the sort of the
4:14
initial premise that we started running with
4:16
back in 22 and showed that to a lot of teachers
4:21
and asked for a lot of feedback. And I think
4:24
one of the things we heard over and over again
4:25
was teachers really like this idea of students
4:27
reporting their thinking. And they were also
4:30
really skeptical of whether or not their peers
4:32
would give them good feedback. which I think
4:35
makes sense. And I think there's also some skepticism
4:37
around that gets it worthwhile to really watch
4:40
your peer who's really struggling. That can be
4:43
sort of painful to watch sometimes. And so it
4:47
was just really good timing that these AI tools
4:50
were coming onto the market and it became a real
4:52
possibility for us to do what we do now, which
4:55
is we use AI to give students feedback on their
4:58
explanations and their thinking. Yeah, so it
5:00
was really fortuitous. Fantastic things that
5:05
snorkel does is allow students to be able to
5:09
express what they know verbally and verbally.
5:12
Why is that important, especially in today's
5:14
classroom, particularly maybe the visually? Because
5:17
the verbally has been there, but now we have
5:19
a lot of different ways that students can express
5:21
their visual knowledge. Why do you find that
5:24
important? And why is it so integral to snorkel?
5:29
Yeah, I think there's a lot I could say about
5:31
this. I think a key part of it is we started
5:34
in math class. And math, I think, my experience
5:38
in the math classroom tells me math is already
5:41
a very formal language for a lot of students.
5:44
And that formality of that language can prevent
5:47
access. And so if you are having students experience
5:51
math just through text, that is a very challenging,
5:55
very formal way to experience math. And so we
5:58
knew that from the start, we really wanted to
6:00
capture how students could talk about their thinking,
6:04
but then we also want to allow students to draw
6:07
and show and use a whiteboard as part of that
6:09
explanation. And so that whiteboard recording
6:13
piece became really central, I think, from the
6:16
beginning because of this piece around math.
6:18
I think what that's grown to be, though, is it
6:22
just creates access for so many students. Students
6:24
can share. A lot of students are able to express
6:28
their thinking a lot more easily. through that
6:31
spoken word. We allow students to record their
6:34
thinking in over 40 different languages. Snorkel
6:36
will understand them in any of those languages,
6:38
so really powerful for native country students.
6:42
Certainly, there's a lot of schools right now
6:44
trying to support a lot of their developing English
6:46
language learners, and a lot of our students
6:48
have very conversational English, but getting
6:51
to the academic English is a lot more challenging,
6:54
and so Snorkel's ability to... to use that and
6:58
leverage that in a really productive way, I think
7:02
is really central to what we're doing. That seems
7:05
to me like you're talking about a lot of things
7:07
here that I think helps to set Snorkel apart
7:10
when it comes to formative assessment. There
7:12
are a lot of EdTech... tools that deal with formative
7:16
assessment. But I think many of those things
7:17
that you just mentioned is one of those things
7:19
that I think puts snorkel out beyond where some
7:23
of those other ones are at. And I know as someone
7:26
who's used the product a little bit myself, but
7:30
had it demoed for me on the expo floor at ISTE,
7:33
but you know, I think one of the exciting things
7:35
that you said you would be able to do for us
7:37
is to kind of give us a little bit of a walkthrough
7:40
of what snorkel looks like and Would you mind
7:44
sharing your screen and showing us some of that?
7:46
And for those that are only listening here, we'll
7:49
make sure to put these links in the description
7:52
of the show so that you can go back and access
7:55
them when you're able to. Yeah, that sounds great.
7:58
I'd love to share. So snorkel, like you said,
8:02
oftentimes is used as formative assessment. It's
8:05
a platform for students to record and share their
8:07
thinking and use AI to get feedback. And so teachers
8:09
share a link or a join code with their students.
8:12
And when their students open it up, what they
8:14
see is a question from their teacher on this
8:17
canvas space. And so students have different
8:19
tools to show their thinking. They can draw,
8:22
highlight, type out text. And then when they're
8:25
ready, they can press this record button and
8:28
they can talk. And so we have our students explain
8:31
their thinking and as they're doing, so AI is
8:34
capturing both their voice and what they're doing
8:36
visually on the screen to be able to give them
8:39
feedback on their response. So I'll just model
8:43
this real quickly here. It says that we've got
8:44
a rectangular frame whose length is 29 centimeters.
8:48
I'm gonna go ahead and draw a rectangle, one
8:50
of the sizes 29. We wanna find the width of that
8:53
frame. Let's say, I know that opposite sides
8:57
of a rectangle are equal, so I'll label this
8:59
side as 29 as well. 29 plus 29, I'm gonna add
9:02
those two together. I'm gonna make a mistake
9:05
here. Let's say I think that adds up to 48. And
9:09
the total perimeter is 146. So I've got 146 minus
9:14
48. And that gives us 98 centimeters. And let's
9:21
say I think that's the answer. 98 centimeters
9:23
is the width. All right, so I made a few mistakes
9:27
there. I messed up on my addition. I didn't divide
9:29
by two at the end. But this is the idea that
9:32
snorkel allows students to record and explain
9:35
and show their thinking. If you're just listening
9:37
to this, what I was just doing is I was drawing
9:39
my work on the whiteboard as I was explaining
9:41
and talking through that math problem. And when
9:44
I press that submit button, the AI begins to
9:46
analyze both what I said and what I showed to
9:48
give me feedback and give me a score on my response.
9:51
And so we score all snorkel responses on a zero
9:54
through four scale. We try to give students praise
9:57
on what's going right in their thinking and explanation
10:00
and ask them questions about what's going wrong.
10:02
So here, it just popped up on the right hand
10:04
side. It says that I got it incorrect. I'll zoom
10:07
in here if you're watching. I got this incorrect.
10:10
I got a two out of four for my explanation. And
10:13
then I get some praise. Great job recognizing
10:15
the opposite sides of a rectangle are equal.
10:17
You correctly labeled both lengths as 29 centimeters.
10:21
Second piece of feedback. I noticed that you
10:23
calculate 29 plus 29 equals 48. Can you double
10:25
check this addition? And the third piece of feedback.
10:28
When you found 98 centimeters remaining, think
10:30
about what this represents. How many width sides
10:33
does a rectangle have? And so we're trying to
10:37
really model that. that feedback after what we
10:39
think feedback from a teacher looks like. We
10:42
want to affirm what's going right and the students
10:44
thinking even if they're getting the wrong answer.
10:46
We want to ask them specific questions around
10:48
what's going wrong without giving away the thinking
10:52
task and students can use that feedback right
10:55
away to actually respond again so they can again
10:58
we're allowed to them they can actually get that
10:59
feedback in over 40 different languages and then
11:01
when they're ready they respond again and they
11:03
can improve and snorkel will save all of their
11:06
attempts and so As a teacher, you get this awesome
11:09
dashboard where you can see all your student
11:11
work automatically scored, get students in there
11:14
talking, explaining and sharing their thinking
11:16
a lot. And John, could you talk a little bit
11:19
to just about the AI side of things like with.
11:22
So one of the things that I think is really cool
11:24
on there is how it has because of the recording,
11:27
like the timestamps of where it estimates that
11:30
it's where the references are with the timestamps.
11:33
Right. Can you talk a little bit about. the AI
11:35
system that's in use for this process, like with
11:39
the feedback and the types of feedback, because
11:42
I know, like with snorkel, you have the multimodal
11:47
AI going on. Can you talk a little bit about
11:49
that process? Yeah, we we use a number of different
11:54
models under the hood. And so when you when you
11:57
assume it's a single snorkel response, it's not
11:59
like it's going through a single AI run. It's
12:02
not just like you know, one run entry comes goes
12:05
in and once something comes out, it's actually
12:07
going through a whole series of different AI
12:11
evaluations that sort of help piece together
12:13
what we think is really strong and effective
12:15
feedback. And so we obviously are doing some
12:17
analysis of the audio or doing some analysis
12:20
of the visual or we're incorporating some analysis
12:23
of math. And we put that together to give the
12:26
student really immediate personalized feedback.
12:29
I'll also mention that teachers can upload and
12:32
create their own snorkel activities. And we don't
12:34
just do math. And so you can use snorkel for
12:36
science class, for English class, for world languages,
12:40
all sorts of use cases for snorkel. But teachers
12:44
can also create their own snorkel activities.
12:46
And part of that creation process, we allow teachers
12:48
to actually weigh in on what they want the AI
12:51
to be looking for. And so teachers have some
12:53
control over. setting the criteria for success
12:56
or setting up an answer key for what the AI is
12:58
looking for and we involve teachers in that process.
13:01
We found that to be really powerful like we want
13:04
this to be not just student thinking goes into
13:07
this box that is AI. It's really a part of this
13:11
keeping teachers in the loop so teachers have
13:14
expectations for their students and we can help
13:16
the AI to align to that and give feedback according
13:19
to that. One of the things that I noticed here
13:23
as well when you were showing some of the feedback
13:25
that the snorkel AI gave back to your hypothetical
13:28
student there, right? It didn't just give them
13:30
the answer, right? It's making the students struggle
13:34
through that learning process and it's giving
13:38
them the little push maybe that they need or
13:40
maybe a little bit of a guidance or direction
13:42
to go. where to find that answer or to re explain
13:46
it, which is, I think, really, really great.
13:49
You know, David and I have talked a lot about,
13:51
you know, that one of the things that I think
13:54
teachers are very fearful of is that AI is just
13:56
going to give students the answer. And in some
13:59
ways it can, but it seems like your system is
14:03
set up so that it doesn't just do that. Yeah,
14:06
really, really cautious about that idea. I mean,
14:09
I think this is really important to me is that
14:12
The student thinking is the learning, right?
14:16
And as soon as we start using AI to actually
14:18
do the thinking, we've undercut the learning.
14:23
I think this, yeah, my background is a math teacher.
14:25
And so for me, this is the whole idea of productive
14:28
struggle, right? If we are undercutting productive
14:30
struggle, we are undercutting our students' opportunities
14:34
to think and build those neural pathways. I think
14:38
that doesn't just apply to math, but we're really
14:41
mindful of the fact that we want our students
14:43
thinking to come first, then the AI comes second
14:46
as support. But again, not support that gives
14:49
away, but supports that actually supports in
14:51
a way that a teacher would. So on the teacher
14:55
side, could you show us a little bit more about
14:57
options for assigning activities? And one of
15:02
the things that we've talked about in some of
15:04
our trainings is the review process. Obviously
15:07
like the instant feedback is great for helping
15:10
students think through things, but what about
15:12
like submitting final products? Yeah, absolutely.
15:19
So on that teacher side, we are surfacing for
15:22
the teacher immediately. All the students work
15:24
from across the class is automatically scored.
15:26
If a student attempted multiple times, you can
15:28
jump into any of those attempts. And then the
15:31
insights tab here will actually do an AI analysis
15:34
of the entire class to share trends and insights.
15:37
So it will highlight what are your top student
15:38
responses in the class and then what are the
15:41
trending errors or mistakes that are happening
15:43
in the class and student understanding and who's
15:46
making them. So really trying to model that after
15:48
what a great like looking at student work protocol
15:51
looks like for teachers where you're looking
15:52
through that student work and trying to figure
15:54
out instructionally what What do I need to take
15:57
away from this? What are the gaps that I need
15:58
to address still, or who do I still need to support?
16:02
One thing that I would love to point out is I
16:05
think we're getting a lot of teachers who are
16:07
recognizing that Snorkel can help them do some
16:10
things that they're already doing well around,
16:12
you know, exit ticket, formative assessment data,
16:14
but it's also helping them sort of raise the
16:16
bar for students. And so I just want to share
16:18
this student response here. This is a student
16:21
response where they got it correct. They got
16:24
a three. And if you look at the feedback, they're
16:27
getting several pieces of praise and all the
16:29
things that they're doing right, but they got
16:31
a three and not a four. And that last piece of
16:34
feedback gives you some indication as to why.
16:37
That last piece of feedback is asking, can you
16:40
explain why you divided by two to find the width?
16:45
Which is... I just think that's, I mean, as Matthew,
16:49
that just gets me so excited, right? Like that's
16:52
this idea that it's not enough just to be able
16:54
to state the answer, we actually want to support
16:56
students to share the why behind their answer
16:59
and how they're how they're getting there. And
17:02
I think that's really difficult to do at scale,
17:05
oftentimes, in a math classroom or in any classroom.
17:09
But but snorkel can help sort of raise that bar
17:12
for for what mastery looks like in any subject
17:15
and That's been really powerful too. So one of
17:19
the things that you showed, I think John, with
17:21
the insights that you had on there. Yeah, you
17:24
know it is kind of the breakdown of where and
17:27
you can kind of see it almost groups kids based
17:29
upon who might be struggling with certain aspects
17:33
or certain areas within that particular lesson.
17:36
Are teachers able to then take that and maybe
17:39
focus on some small group? instruction with those
17:44
kids who seem to be struggling with the same
17:45
issue. Yeah, definitely. It's designed to do
17:48
that to highlight for you which students are
17:51
experiencing what gaps. And we've seen teachers
17:54
leverage a number of different ways. I think
17:57
some teachers are using snorkel genuinely as
17:59
a do it once, get an exit ticket, sort of get
18:02
that score. We also see a number of classrooms
18:05
where teachers are letting students retry multiple
18:08
times on snorkel. And because snorkel saves all
18:11
of the students' attempts, you can see the different
18:14
progress that students are making. But some teachers
18:16
are actually looking at what you might call the
18:19
velocity at which a student's able to get to
18:22
that correct answer. Are they taking, does it
18:24
take them one attempt, or does it take them three
18:26
attempts? And think about where, might we step
18:30
in in the classroom to support further. I think
18:35
this is something that we're really excited about
18:36
is thinking about how does this change the role
18:40
of formative assessment in your classroom? That
18:42
formative assessment is not just the five minutes
18:45
at the end, but actually can be embedded right
18:48
into the lesson and have some real implication
18:51
on the rest of learning that happens in class.
18:55
in the moment in that lesson, because all of
18:57
a sudden you can collect this really rich data
18:59
and have it be responded to immediately. And
19:03
one of the things too is, like with what you
19:06
showed us so far, we had a pre -built prompt.
19:10
And can you take us through a little bit too
19:12
of how would a teacher create their own prompt
19:15
or activity? And also, do you see any benefit
19:19
to that as well, as opposed to like, you know,
19:22
the pre -built content? Definitely, yeah. I think
19:25
one of the things that teachers find most exciting
19:27
about Snorkel is they can use it with their own
19:29
curriculum. So our pre -created library has content
19:32
from K to 12 across all subject areas, math,
19:36
science, social studies, ELA, world languages.
19:40
And so you can search that and use it, look by
19:43
standards. There's also the ability to create
19:45
your own. So from the teacher homepage, teachers
19:47
can actually add their own question. I'm gonna
19:50
go ahead and model this if you are watching along.
19:52
If you're not, if you're just listening, I'll
19:54
try to describe this here. So you give it a title,
19:56
you go ahead and you add your content to the
19:58
whiteboard. Teachers can write a question on
20:01
that whiteboard. They can also copy and paste
20:04
a question into that whiteboard directly from
20:07
their own curriculum. So they can drag and drop
20:09
and drop something in there. I am just gonna
20:11
go ahead and drop an equation on this whiteboard.
20:17
And it looks like there is some sort of latex
20:19
feature for math teachers to be able to create
20:23
the types of equations they want. Exactly, yeah.
20:25
You can use the equation editor in here. And
20:29
then once you put that question on the whiteboard,
20:31
the AI will actually analyze what you put on
20:33
the whiteboard. It will set up an answer key
20:35
for you as the teacher and show it to you. And
20:38
so again, this is part of keeping the teachers
20:40
in the loop, but here we have an opportunity
20:42
to make sure that aligns with exactly what we
20:44
want our students to be doing. we can add additional
20:48
criteria that we want the AI to be looking for.
20:50
I think this is especially helpful if you're
20:52
doing something open -ended, if you're doing
20:54
something for an English or Social Studies class
20:56
where your criteria is probably going to be really
20:58
more specific to what was discussed in class
21:00
that day or the things that you're working on.
21:02
And then you can hit confirm and assign to your
21:05
students. So it's pretty quick. You can add contact
21:08
directly from your curriculum really easily.
21:11
The AI sets up that key and then you can assign
21:13
to your students. And we just added school and
21:16
district libraries so that as teachers are creating
21:19
these materials, they can actually share them
21:20
with their colleagues and build that sort of
21:24
really rich resource for them to use that aligns
21:27
with their curriculum. And so once the teacher
21:31
has a lesson created and they share it out with
21:34
their share code, do you have integrations with
21:37
any of the LMSs, or is it just, in your experience,
21:40
been easier to just share the code? Great question.
21:44
So we use a Google or Microsoft single sign -on,
21:47
and so it's very simple to share. with students
21:52
and get them in there immediately. We don't have
21:54
a full integration with any LMSs. We eventually
21:57
probably will, but it's very simple to share
21:59
that join code with lower link with your students.
22:02
They open it up and when they do, they're automatically
22:05
added to your class roster in Snorkel. And so
22:07
that process is very simple. I should have modeled
22:10
that process very closely after how you mentioned
22:13
Flipgrid before. It's very similar to how Flipgrid
22:15
used to work with those join codes. and uh John,
22:23
you you had a chance to uh go to ISTE recently.
22:26
Yeah. Uh Jeremy was there. We did a whole uh
22:29
we did a whole episode on how I didn't get to
22:31
go and he got to go and enjoy all the the fun
22:34
and see everything. So, um yeah, hopefully we
22:37
can meet next year in person but um how how did
22:40
everything go at at ISTE and and you know, having
22:43
snorkel on the expo floor and um what was the
22:46
experience like for you? Yeah, it's Basically,
22:49
it was phenomenal. We had a lot of fun. I think
22:55
just a little context, anyone can create a free
22:58
Snorkel account. You can go to Snorkel .app and
23:00
you can sign up and create a free account. And
23:02
so what that means is that, unlike some companies
23:05
where you have to buy a school or a district
23:08
subscription for step access, anyone can use
23:11
it. And so oftentimes, people are sharing it.
23:13
And so they were... I don't know the number exactly,
23:17
but probably over a dozen different sessions
23:19
where people were sharing snorkel in their sessions
23:22
and showing teachers how they could use it. And
23:24
there was a lot of excitement and people were
23:25
coming to our booth all day long. And I think
23:29
we got rid of, we gave away all of our socks,
23:31
our shirts, our stickers. Like by the end of
23:35
the last day, people came to us and we were like,
23:36
we don't have, we ran out of business cards too.
23:39
So we were like, we don't have anything for you,
23:41
but there's some of those stickers. Yeah. We
23:45
have a lot of fun with it. We bought a shark
23:47
costume so that we could run around and cause
23:50
a scene. Actually, I do have this with me. I
23:56
never travel without my snorkel. So we walk around
24:02
wearing these purple snorkels on our heads, too.
24:04
Our whole team is former teachers, and so I think
24:07
we have some of that teacher energy, and we're
24:09
not afraid to... you know, in a classroom I was
24:12
never afraid to embarrass myself and kind of
24:14
the kids and we take a similar approach to conferences.
24:18
And I can confirm because I did first meet you
24:21
at the airport in Minneapolis before our flight.
24:24
We were on the same flight leaving out to San
24:26
Antonio and you did. You pulled out of your bag
24:28
the snorkel and the mask so I could see that
24:33
you were ready to go right away. It's a lot of
24:37
fun. Although I think I did comment to one of
24:41
the people that I walked by in your area that
24:43
was demonstrating. And she did a fantastic job.
24:47
But I'm like, doesn't your head hurt after several
24:50
hours of wearing that mask up by your head where
24:53
you have it? I'm sure it does. But it's worth
24:57
it. People come up to us constantly and ask,
25:00
what's this all about? And that gives us a little
25:03
opening to share a little bit more. Yeah. Do
25:06
you think that was overall the most memorable
25:08
thing was just the sheer number of people that
25:10
would come by and engage with you or anything
25:13
else stick out? Well, so this was our first year
25:16
having a booth at ISTE. So this is our third
25:19
year going. We went the first year, three years
25:24
ago, we just walked around and just talked to
25:27
some people and we at that time hadn't really
25:30
publicly launched. We were just sort of learning.
25:33
Then we went back again last year and we were
25:36
wearing shirts and we talked to some people,
25:37
but we were just sort of still pretty small.
25:40
And then this year we've just grown tremendously
25:42
over the past year. So we got a booth, we had
25:46
four members from our team there and then three
25:49
teachers there at our booth as well. And then
25:51
we had visitors all day long. So it was a lot
25:55
of fun and looking forward to next year. And
25:58
it's pretty cool that we had just interviewed
26:01
Thomas Hummel who had is part of Edu aid, and
26:05
he's a teacher as well. And I think one of the
26:06
really cool things about what you guys are doing
26:09
is that we have it seems like more and more teachers
26:12
creating some of these tools with and with the
26:14
availability of AI and stuff. It's kind of great
26:16
because then you still know that you're putting
26:19
sound pedagogy into the tools and stuff. And
26:22
so that's really that's really great to see.
26:26
But as far as the. tools that like snorkel that
26:30
are out. I know this is a really tough question
26:33
and we've asked a few of our in our interviews
26:37
about classroom instruction over the next few
26:40
years. Do you have any sort of anticipation as
26:43
to what is going to happen and how snorkel can
26:47
kind of help shape the classroom? Is a great
26:50
question and I don't have all the answers. You
26:54
know, My hope is that I don't think that AI is
27:01
going to replace teachers anytime soon, is the
27:04
short answer. I think so much of teaching and
27:07
learning is a very human experience, and relationships
27:10
play a big part of that. I am hopeful that we
27:14
will see teachers using technology that helps
27:18
lift up student voices, that centers student
27:21
thinking, that really supports what good teaching
27:27
and learning look like and good pedagogy look
27:29
like. And use tech that isn't just for the sake
27:33
of using tech, but it's really about how do we
27:36
create opportunities for our students to share
27:38
their brilliance, to celebrate that and to support
27:41
that. So I think that's sort of my thousand foot
27:47
view. I think there's all sorts of things that
27:50
are really rapidly changing in the classroom.
27:53
And one of the things that I am a little bit
27:56
wary of right now is a lot of the AI generated
28:00
like curriculum and lesson plans. And I'm just
28:03
not convinced yet that those are really at a
28:06
really high fidelity level that's supporting
28:09
student thinking and really getting students
28:12
curious. So I bet that will shift, too, and that
28:16
will grow. But it's something that we've stayed
28:19
away from. We're not doing any AI -generated
28:21
content in the platform as far as our curriculum
28:24
materials go. It's all created by curriculum
28:27
companies that we've partnered with or by expert
28:29
teachers or self -created by the teachers and
28:32
districts who are uploading their own content.
28:37
Cool, this one just kind of popped into my head
28:40
here too. Like I'm sorry if it takes us back
28:42
a little bit here guys, but differentiation.
28:45
Is it easy to differentiate with snorkel and
28:48
can teachers send out different questions to
28:50
different students? Yeah, you can select different
28:54
students to assign activities to. I mean, the
28:57
very typical snorkel experiences teachers are
29:00
assigning those activities to the whole class
29:02
because they're using it as more of a formative
29:04
assessment tool. So they're giving everyone the
29:06
same sort of at -bat. But you can select individual
29:11
students to assign activities to. You can use
29:14
different features. I didn't share the snorkel
29:16
coach feature, but we have features that... support
29:20
with accessibility for students to have things
29:22
read aloud or allow them to even ask questions
29:25
of the AI before submitting their response. And
29:30
so different tools like that can be used in selective
29:32
ways to support students who need additional
29:36
support or differentiation or accommodations
29:38
as well. And I think there's still a question
29:43
mark. I think when we give teachers those insights,
29:47
we're sort of showing those student groups. And
29:49
I think there's a question that's posed to us,
29:52
which has been, what should happen next as a
29:57
teacher? That's a lot of meaningful data. And
30:01
are we setting teachers up to use that really
30:03
well? And should there be a snorkel option for
30:06
what happens next there, or is there something
30:08
teachers are left to do on their own? John, if
30:15
some teacher is listening right now and they
30:18
want to give snorkel a try tomorrow, it's the
30:21
summer, so they're just kind of practicing with
30:23
it maybe, but even in the fall, what's the best
30:28
way for them to get started? Yeah. Well, we just
30:31
released our snorkel certification course last
30:34
night. Anyone can go in there and create a free
30:39
account. It's snorkel .app .app, not to be confused
30:43
with snorkel .com, which is some other website
30:45
entirely, snorkel .app. You can create a free
30:48
account. There's some sample activities there
30:50
to try on the homepage and really encourage people
30:52
to try out a snorkel activity yourself to see
30:55
what that's like. We have sample activities in
30:58
there, like the math one that I showed you. We
31:00
also have snorkel reading fluency activities.
31:04
Students can read, and we'll actually use different
31:06
AI tools under the hood to give students feedback
31:09
on things like their pronunciation and fluency
31:12
when they're reading. We've got world language
31:15
activities in there. We've got science questions
31:17
in there, some close reading questions for ELA.
31:20
And so you can sort of find the appropriate content
31:22
and try that out. And then from there, you can
31:25
use that free account with your students. Free
31:28
accounts have an activity limit, but it's pretty
31:31
generous. And so we get a lot of teachers started
31:33
on that free version. And teachers that like
31:39
that, they can hop in there and start using it
31:42
right away. One of the things I was thinking
31:47
about here with some of the teachers, we're always
31:50
working with a variety of schools and we still
31:53
have some teachers that want to do kind of like
31:57
the traditional methods of teaching. And I think
31:59
there's always merit to that. I think a good
32:02
combination of tech and some traditional stuff
32:06
is good. But I think it's interesting because...
32:10
with being in the math area, have you had any
32:13
of those type of conversations or what would
32:16
be advice you would give or maybe how would you
32:21
convince a teacher who's kind of doing more of
32:23
the traditional math, you know, paper or maybe
32:26
even going to like the overhead projectors with
32:29
the, you know, the sheets with the vis -a -vis
32:33
or vis -a -vis, whatever that those markers,
32:36
what would you tell them the benefit to using
32:40
a platform like snork would be maybe even specifically
32:42
for math being that's your background. Yeah,
32:47
I could share all sorts of things here. One of
32:50
the worst things that comes to mind for me, I
32:51
think, I think there was a moment in my own teaching,
32:56
where I had this sort of aha, where I was like,
32:59
you know, what matters the most in the classroom
33:02
is not what I'm thinking about in that moment
33:05
as the teacher is what all my students are thinking
33:07
about. And if I can give my students the option,
33:15
the avenue for them to think really deeply and
33:21
encourage them to do so, that's going to be really
33:23
powerful. So I do think there is a certain sort
33:28
of lens of teaching pedagogy that we come at
33:33
this with, that we think that student thinking
33:34
belongs at the center of every classroom. I think
33:39
another piece of this is around student voice.
33:43
And it's really interesting. I'll lead PD sessions
33:46
all the time where I've got, you can use Snorkel
33:49
from kindergarten all the way through 12th grade.
33:52
And we've got all these sessions where we've
33:54
got elementary school teachers and secondary
33:56
teachers in the room or in the call. And I'll
33:59
ask them, how many of you feel a little bit uncomfortable
34:03
about having all your students talk in class
34:05
at once? A lot of the secondary teachers will
34:09
raise their hands. Elementary school teachers,
34:11
I think, get a little bit more comfortable with
34:13
this because they've used other tools like Flipgrid
34:15
or CSA or Nearpod or they've experienced things
34:19
like that before. But for a lot of secondary
34:21
teachers, it can be a little bit of a shift and
34:24
a challenge. But I think that's a good one. And
34:27
it's one that when you try it, there's sort of
34:30
an aha moment where you're like, ah, this is
34:32
actually really incredible to have. 30 kids talking
34:35
at once. And the tool is really smart. It uses
34:39
AI to actually capture a student's voice and
34:41
follow that student's voice through the length
34:42
of the recording. And so it works in a classroom
34:45
of 30 students to have every student recording
34:47
at once and get them all individualized feedback
34:50
on theirs. Yeah, um, you know, I think we've
34:56
had a very productive conversation here and I'm
34:58
really excited to give snorkel a more in -depth
35:02
Analysis and look personally, right? But before
35:05
we let you go, you know What should the listeners
35:08
the viewers keep an eye out for from snorkel?
35:11
Are there any upcoming updates or events? Or
35:15
things on the horizon for snorkel that you think
35:18
people would like to know about? Yeah, there's
35:21
a well, there's an event purse I'll share. So
35:24
if you Google like, weird random holidays, you
35:28
know, you'll find things like national pizza
35:30
day or national cupcake day or whatever. There
35:33
is a random weird holiday called a world snorkeling
35:37
day, which happens on July 30. And we have co
35:40
opted that to be actually about us. So we're
35:43
pretending world snorkeling day is actually about
35:45
us. We are hosting. It's like a day long event,
35:50
we've got 10 different teachers, I think. Each
35:53
one is sharing about how they use snorkel in
35:55
their classrooms this past year. So we've got
35:57
a science teacher, we've got a math teacher,
35:58
we've got an ELA teacher, we've got someone who's
36:00
talking about snorkel and writing, we talk about
36:02
snorkel and reading fluency. snorkel and English
36:06
language learners and sped and world languages.
36:08
So really excited for that event. It's July 30th,
36:11
it's free. It's all gonna be recorded and available
36:14
online too afterwards. So if folks wanna look
36:16
it up, they missed the actual event. It will
36:20
be on the YouTube channel and split up into little
36:22
half hour clubs for each of those sessions. So
36:25
that's gonna be really fun. We did it last year
36:26
as well and just had a blast. So that's coming
36:30
out July 30th. And then as far as other, our
36:34
upcoming things for snorkel, we are currently
36:37
working on expanding some of our tools and expanding
36:41
some of the data insights that we give to both
36:43
teachers and to school leaders. I think we've
36:45
found that a lot of the teachers who are using
36:48
snorkel best are finding really powerful ways
36:51
to use those insights and use that data. And
36:55
so we wanna support more teachers to do that.
36:59
And we think... I think we think we can do that
37:01
in really unique ways. We're capturing far more
37:03
data than you might get out of a multiple choice
37:07
test, or you might get out of some traditional
37:08
assessment methods. We're really capturing. We
37:11
can track every misconception. We can track every
37:14
use of a vocabulary word. We can track different
37:18
strategies that students are using. And so there's
37:20
some really interesting things that we think
37:22
can come out of that, and that could be powerful.
37:26
Awesome. And we'll be sure to link all of these
37:28
different things that you were mentioning, World
37:30
Snorkeling Day, as well as snorkel .app right
37:35
in the description of our show notes so that
37:37
people can just click the link and get right
37:39
to them. But we really appreciate you joining
37:42
us here today. And we are excited for people
37:46
to give Snorkel a try. Yeah. Thank you so much
37:49
for having me. This is awesome. And I really
37:51
appreciate you all inviting me. Thanks, John.
37:55
Yeah, thank you.