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Anna Zivarts on Why Nondrivers Should Lead the Urbanist Movement · nondriver

• Anna: One of the things that I have learned from people who have been doing advocacy work for, you know, their lives is that you have to do it in a way that feels sustainable to you. Perhaps you you win, perhaps you don't. ⁓ more often you probably lose and feel really discouraged and burned out. For this work to really build and grow the way we need it to, we need to be able to do it in a way that feels sustainable to each of us. Welcome to non driver. Devin: Real stories of navigating our world from people who can't drive. And I'm Devin Silvernail. How are you doing today, Anna? Anna: I'm Anna Zivarts. Doing good. Yeah. Excited to be talking with you and kicking off this podcast. Devin: Yeah, ⁓ this time around we get to flip the script. ⁓ so for folks who tuned into our first episode, ⁓ Anna ⁓ was the person in the interviewer seat ⁓ asking me about my pathway ⁓ to this moment. And and now it's my turn to ask Anna. You know, I I think a lot of folks, probably more folks who are listening to this, know who you are than ⁓ you know, know who I am. But you know, for folks who who are Brand new to both of us. ⁓ Anna Zivarts was also born with Nystegmas, just like me. Anna started as a videographer and organizer at the ACLU, co-founded a worker-run video production company, which is so cool. and later worked as a communication strategist for labor and for political campaigns. In 2020, Anna launched the Disability Mobility Initiative, part of ⁓ Disability Rights Washington. ⁓ also created the week without ⁓ driving challenge that kind of is gone I feel international now and ⁓ and then obviously wrote this book when ⁓ driving is not an option ⁓ steering away from car dependency and now ⁓ is the founder of the non-drivers alliance and also co-host of the show so Anan you've done a ton of stuff ⁓ in your in your advocacy life it's pretty it's pretty cool Anna: I have been lucky in that I've been able to make it work ⁓ over the years, ⁓ you know, doing advocacy and and doing advocacy for, you know, for my job, which is yeah, has been cool and you know, to be real has often been supported by the fact that my partner works for a labor union and I get health care through that and have ⁓ you know, been able to have a little bit more freedom ⁓ to take on jobs and and you know, take on challenges like trying to start a non profit. in this moment. ⁓ because of that that healthcare security. So just wanna call that out. ⁓ thank you, labor and good health care. Devin: Still, not to take away all of that work that you've done, it is a lot of hard work. You know, I just wanted to get started though, kind of how you had asked me a couple of questions. I want to ask you a couple questions up front. If you can give us really one example of how being a non-driver has affected you, you know, just like me, there's a million examples. But if you can think of maybe sometime in your early life or in your early adulthood where you know, that really stood out for you, that would be I think that'd be really interesting to hear. Anna: Yeah, you know, I'm gonna actually bring it back to labor for a second. so in college, ⁓ I went to school in the Bay Area and I got really involved with student labor ⁓ organizing. So, you know, students organizing in support of campus workers and ⁓ got hired during college as an organizer for SCIU, which was great. ⁓ taught me a lot of skills. This was even before like Google Maps or MapQuest. So I remember going out with like a road at list going, you know, to do people's home home visits, right, to talk to people. ⁓ and and the other part of it that was great was that I was able to pay for for college while I was in college and didn't have to go into debt. I loved organizing, I love getting to talk to people. ⁓ I love sort of building that that sense of community solidarity and power. And in in college I was always partnered with other folks who could drive when we did home visits and it wasn't you know, we were going out as pairs anyway, so it was fine. And I really wanted to be an organizer and the unions were like, Well, you can't drive. I don't think you can be an organizer. Why don't you become a researcher? And so I, you know, went to a a researcher training and I got hired as a researcher and I realized right away that like sitting behind a computer all day and not connecting with people just sucked my soul dry. It was not not a happy place for me to be in. No, there wasn't really a space for me without a driver's license in this sort of like model of organizing that involved, you know, driving around to people's houses and and talking to them. And so, you know, I think that's one point at which you know, my life shifted and and that's, you know, essentially why I ended up in communications, 'cause it required less of the in person visits to people's homes. ⁓ but involved at least, you know, some amount of engagement with human beings. And so, ⁓ that's, you know, that that shaped the direction of of my life in a big way. Devin: That touches on a big point for a lot of people. I think that for me personally and I'm sure for you, how many jobs that you've overlooked when you were looking for a job that said like it required a driver's license? Anna: So I was actually hired as a researcher and moved to New York City for a job, you know, as a researcher there. And then at that point, you know, not having a license just became less of a thing because in New York City, it just was never a question in job interviews. ⁓ at least not for the sort of, you know, like white collar, you know, job interviews, communication job interviews that I was, you know, going for. I think that the sort of the flip side of that is that. I was so ashamed of my disability at that point. you know, and growing up, like I didn't want to tell people and so I wouldn't tell people ⁓ in these interviews. And I think then they, you know, I there was enough a something was off, right? Where they could tell that something was different about me and they couldn't quite understand what it was. And so I think, you know, that that wasn't actually very helpful. ⁓ me trying to not to hide it, right. Devin: When would you say that you kind of decided to make that more well known? And and and why did you decide to make that decision? Anna: I mean, I really tried to hide it. Like this was through my 30s, right? Because I ended up, you know, doing political campaign work. And then as as sort of YouTube and Facebook video became a thing, ⁓ went into video production because I had done some video, you know, production and and film editing schools, ⁓ classes in school, and I was doing freelance work and I was like, no one's gonna hire, you know, a low vision filmmaker, right? Like, why would you hire someone who can't see to make videos? And so I was like really, really secretive about it, right? As you know, with clients. ⁓ once people got to know me, you know, and I started doing a lot of work for unions around the country, they knew that I couldn't drive and and so it was always sort of a like, well, you know, if I'm gonna go to, you know, Columbus, Ohio, like someone's gonna have to pick me up at the airport, ⁓ you know, and and drive me to the hotel and pick me up the next day. But it no it wasn't, you know, a big deal. I also, you know, was really into biking and the bike community and got into bike racing a little bit and While my closest friends in that space and my teammates and my coach knew that my vision, you know, knew about my vision, ⁓ I was encouraged not to tell anybody else. ⁓ because people were worried that, you know, how how the rest of the Viking community would react to that. And so I was really sort of deep in the closet, so to say. So 2016 came along and ⁓ my kid was born in November that year, ⁓ right before the election. ⁓ and ⁓ He shortly after being born was diagnosed with the same eye condition I have. And that was just this like gr shattering moment for me. ⁓ I had this like deep emotional reaction, a lot of sadness, ⁓ couldn't stop crying. And like, you know, I postpartum is an emotional time for everyone, but it was, you know, it was really hard. And I and it ⁓ actually got connected. realized started realizing that like my sadness wasn't really about him, but about my own childhood and like, buff, yeah, still emotional to talk about. ⁓ and so I got I got connected to Lighthouse for the Blind and ⁓ started seeing a social worker there who was just amazing. And over the course of six months or so started sort of processing that. ⁓ th those feelings and and and realized that like gosh there was this whole community out there ⁓ that I hadn't been connected to ⁓ and that I needed to. And so ⁓ at that point I I started sort of trying to figure out ways like how do I fit into the disability community, who out there is speaking in ways that resonates with who I am and and the way I see the world. And, you know, I think there I had sort of like poked around ⁓ disability groups a little bit and wasn't, I mean, for lack of a better word, but wasn't seeing a lot of sort of intersectionality around ⁓ race or class. ⁓ and that felt really missing to me. ⁓ I remember in college I went briefly to like a student disability group on campus and looked around and it was, you know, a hundred percent white. And I was like, This is strange. Like this doesn't feel like a space I necessarily like, why is this this way? ⁓ and I only went to that one meeting. ⁓ you know, and and part of that was my own, you know, internalizable. But part of it was also like this is not the kind of space that ⁓ reflects the kind of community that I wanna, you know, be part of. And so yeah. ⁓ eventually on Twitter I found Alice Wong, ⁓ who passed recently, but was just like an amazing, amazing leader and thinker and organizer and connector in the disability community. ⁓ through her work and her writing, ⁓ Disability Visibility Project. And that sort of vision of the disability community was like, okay, this is it. This is this is a place where I can see ⁓ myself yeah, being part of. And that eventually led me to ⁓ finding a job ⁓ at a disability rights organization ⁓ that was trying to sort of break the mold a little bit with ⁓ you know the way they were doing advocacy. ⁓ and move back to Washington State and start, you know, doing work doing work here. Devin: Lighthouse for the Blind, there is such a great ⁓ resource. You know, I remember being a kid and I don't know how, but my parents connected me with them too. And that helped me to an extent kind of grapple with where my life was going to be headed. and ⁓ you know, and then, you know, talking about our our kids as well, you know, I have a a kid as as well, and and this last year she started wearing glasses and I kind of had that kind of internalized guilt, you know, because I thought, well, maybe this is my fault. ⁓ you know, so I think that that's completely natural. But what I really wanted to touch on is it's very interesting because I think probably pretty common with people who get into organizing, this idea that you you you kind of do you both choose this this path and this path chooses you, right? It seems like you know, you had this idea of what you wanted to do, but then there was this kind of this kind of detour that you had to take, and then you follow the detour. And you kind of became deeper and deeper, you know, more interested in that work, which led to more work, which led to more work. And I I just find that really, really interesting. That common thread, you know, that it just kind of it almost feels like a happy accident. Which makes you think about, you know, you you writing this book. did you always think that you wanted to write a book, or was this another one of these these happy accidents? and I mean, do you see your writing as another form of organizing or if this Anna: ⁓ totally. Yeah. Yeah. no, it's funny, I didn't, you know, I was never considered myself like a writer or an author. Like that wasn't something that I aspired to. I definitely, you know, always saw myself as a communicator, you know, doing a lot of video communication, ⁓ you know, figuring out how to share stories, ⁓ to to ⁓ create impact. And really like what I realized pretty early on. in the communication working I was doing with with a lot of organizing was that often, you know, while it was great for other people to see a story, you know, a video that you created with someone, ⁓ you know, telling their story, what was actually often most impactful was the experience of that person ⁓ being able to tell their story and then feeling sort of bought into this work and bought into the, you know, the movement for lack of a better word, ⁓ or the, you know, the campaign, the project. And so, you know, having storytelling being an organizing tool. ⁓ and that's what I set out with initially ⁓ when I started doing transportation organizing work in Washington in 2020. So let's ask people to share their stories as a way to sort of bring them into this cohort of people who then see themselves as being able to impact ⁓ the way policy and budgets and ⁓ in this narrative around whose mobility counts. ⁓ let's let's sort of bring that that that piece in. And so it was really a storytelling project. ⁓ that's was sort of the the initial forum of the book in many ways was a story map that I created when I was working at Disability Rights Washington. we interviewed over 300 people ⁓ and then documented those stories in this in the story map. And that ⁓ I was like, wow, this is this is cool. ⁓ hadn't seen that sort of work happening around disability and transportation. And wanted to figure out how to, you know, get the message out beyond sort of the the audience that we could, you know, with this interactive website. A book sort of big grew out of that, wanting to share those stories. And then also there was a big piece around like, you know, a book is considered like a legitimate form of knowledge, right? There's like a lot of ⁓ yeah, I guess legitimacy that comes from something being in a book, ⁓ for better or for worse. And so wanting to have what was these experiences and this knowledge of the disability community and of non-drivers seen as valid, seen as valuable, seen as expertise. And one way to do that was to sort of, you know, leverage my ability to convince a publisher to turn this into a book, ⁓ into, you know, having this knowledge be seen as real. ⁓ and and so that was sort of the the desire behind writing the book. In the process of writing it, I realized I really do enjoy writing. ⁓ and so I'm hoping to work on another book soon. ⁓ you know, spending more time in that writing process 'cause it's something that I I you know, I enjoy. ⁓ but it wasn't I went I didn't go into this thinking that I wanted to be a writer. Devin: Green that there are people out there that want to gather that knowledge and and bring it together. And it's funny because, you know, I ⁓ I look at your book and I I also kind of think about it as an organizing tool. ⁓ in fact, on my bookshelf here, I have it's divided into a couple of of different sections. And I do have this this organizing inspiration section and and it it's one of the books that that ⁓ I I turn to. And ⁓ I think you're right because especially when you can when you can turn To a page, open a page and look at something tangible. ⁓ not only can you feel that and and see that and touch that, you s you can share that with somebody else. It's such a great tool. And so I think that's really cool that you see it that way, because not sure if many authors do. And ⁓ for the folks again, for folks that think of organizing as one thing or another, there's so many different forms, especially with sharing stories, because stories are so powerful. You know, I'm wondering after you know interviewing all these people, you know, I think you talk to people across the United States. ⁓ is there this was there kind of a a pattern or one specific theme that you kind of ended up seeing coming from these different stories? This kind of if it were a Venn diagram, is there an overlap that you see whenever you're talking to anybody? Anna: think one theme that you know hadn't really s been surfaced in a lot of the transportation conversations ⁓ that that you know that was sort of a a common current through a lot of the stories is what it felt like to have to rely on other people ⁓ to get places. And while that can be, you know, really nice sometimes, ⁓ and I actually was I was talking to someone at an event recently who was sharing that They had read, you know, s a story about someone doing, you know, not having a car as a way to build community, right? Like as a way to have to go out and like connect with other people for rides. For those of us who have, you know, really can't drive and it's not a choice, ⁓ dri non-drivers by default, as you say, like often that reliance on, you know, our friends, our family, our social networks, on, you know, professional caregivers perhaps, ⁓ can be really draining. And after, you know, like there's this sort of like having to ask permission every time you want to go somewhere because you have to convince this other person that your desire to travel is valuable and valid enough for them to them to spend their time doing it. ⁓ and I I think we don't talk enough about that, ⁓ and recognize that enough. And I know like there's this tension, especially with my when I think about my my own family and my my parents, ⁓ but even my partner too, like ⁓ they're like, ⁓ well we can just just ask, we'll drive you and it's like, Well, it it isn't like, sure, I can do that. ⁓ but I ⁓ then I have to, you know, sort of negotiate this with you, ⁓ rather than just being able to to make the trip that I wanna make for whatever reason, whether it's a medical appointment or, you know, just 'cause I wanna go out and go s you know, get a coffee at this particular place. Like, ⁓ i yeah, I think that piece, ⁓ was something that I heard again and again in interviews. And it can be, you know, I mean, it can be just that feeling, right, of of sort of like suppressing your desire to go places 'cause you don't feel like asking for favors. ⁓ but it can, you know, escalate into situations and it does for some people, right? Where like you are having to rely on someone who, ⁓ you know, is abusive or there's just like it's a dangerous situation that you can't get out of ⁓ because of that sort of dependence on ⁓ someone else. That's a theme that we don't we don't recognize enough when we talk about the need for less car dependent communities. Devin: I mean, I think that's a really good point. That the if you were to talk to any kind of person any person who relies or can rely on a car to get around in and you told them that, ⁓ I think that they ⁓ a lot of people would be surprised. You know, personally in my life I've had folks that ⁓ I've been really close to that I've ended up ⁓ you know, we we've we ended up having arguments. I mean, some that are so bad that we really didn't talk to each other for a very long time because the negotiation didn't and work out, right? You know, so you start with, ⁓ I can offer you gas money or I can do it at this time or whatever. And those are just things that folks don't necessarily they don't have to think about when they can just go get up off their couch, walk to their car and go literally anywhere in the world they want. ⁓ you know, I've watched YouTube channels where people drive from London to Beijing, right? Anna: You can do that. Yeah. No, I think it's funny because I think I also sort of have as a result of that, like developed this deep desire to travel places that like maybe other people don't have. And I think part of it is the like proving that I can do it without driving, right? ⁓ proving that I can, you know, combine some epic number of buses and trains and biking and like you know, like modes that, you know, to to get somewhere and that I feel a great sense of accomplishment in doing that. And I think there's also like when you're asking someone for a ride, and for me, like sometimes it's great to get to know someone and in you know, long drives are a lovely way to know people deeper because you're sitting in a car and you're talking for hours. But that also, you know, i in some ways is draining. And ⁓ there's times when I'm like, God, it would be great to not have to feel like I have to be turned on and performing gratitude for that many, you know, hours. ⁓ so I'm actually like, this is an example of this, but on Monday. ⁓ in a few days, I have to go to a conference over in on the eastern side of the state, over in Leavenworth, which is not an easy place to get to ⁓ without driving. There is Amtrak service, but it's like daily and comes in weird hours, so I can't make it work and there's no other transit. ⁓ but I did hear from another non-driving friend that there's an airporter that can take me ⁓ within five miles of where I need to be. And then there may be some local transit I can take for the last five miles. ⁓ I think I'm also gonna bring a folding bike. ⁓ and I may need to bike on the state highway, Route Two, which isn't the most fun, but I think I can five miles isn't that far. So, ⁓ and I'm deciding I decided I was gonna do this, even though I could, yes, probably get a ride, but it would mean leaving at times that aren't as convenient, staying longer than I wanted to. ⁓ and just that sort of like needing to not only be at this conference and be, you know, engaging with people, ⁓ but you know, having to do that. for, you know, eighteen hours of this day. ⁓ and so I'm I'm gonna try to hack it with the airporter. We'll see how it goes. Devin: Yeah, that's really interesting because it's not just a ⁓ negotiation with other people, it's a negotiation with yourself, within yourself. Cause you're t you're thinking about about that, you know, you could take this Amtrak that ⁓ I I have parents that live in or family, well lots of family actually that lives in north central Washington. And I've taken that Amtrak, I've taken the Wana Wanashi Valley shuttle as well. And ⁓ the shuttle's great, honestly. It's much better than taking the train because the train is chronically four hours late. And in Leavenworth as a city is really an interesting place because ⁓ one block or you know, one one street is really cool and and walkable, and then the rest of it is mountains. And so that makes it very hard. Crossing fingers for you, luckily, it seems like a lot of people, especially along that route to are are used to s you know, quote unquote cyclists, you know, folks doing races and things of that nature. So hopefully that'll work out for you. But that's very interesting, and that makes you think about would you say that this negotiation between within yourself and between yourself and other people, when you're in a room with folks who are making policy decisions, do you think that that is kind of the thing that never comes into the conversation? Or would you say that that is just scratching the surface and then there's so much more that that they're missing? Anna: We'd mentioned week without driving a minute ago, but I feel like this is a a place where week without driving starts to help people understand a little bit about this experience, especially if they really commit to participating in the full week. ⁓ and not just like, you know, one bus trip or one bike trip. But, you know, if you really are trying to not drive for a full week and trying to get and participate in your life the way you would want to, ⁓ and normally, you know, need to, ⁓ I think you start to to recognize some of these things. Like what it feels like to ask for rides from coworkers or friends every time you want to go somewhere. ⁓ what it feels like to, you know, maybe not that it's dangerous, but like, you know, uncomfortable waiting in a dark bus stop, you know, in the evening, ⁓ on, you know, when there's just no one else around. One of the first years we did Week Without Driving, I remember getting a video reflection from a council member, Paula Ryan, who talked about how even after just a week, she felt like her mood was really like she felt a little blue, I think was the way she she phrased it. Because she had sound fell in that she was giving up social activities because she didn't feel like she could ask people for a ride to, you know, a coffee shop or a ride out, you know, for for, you know, dinner. ⁓ like she felt okay asking for rides for, you know, like work or medical appointments, but those social things were the things that, you know, were just like a little too much to ask for, right? And you just think about what that, you know, how that impacts people over a lifetime, ⁓ not being able to participate as fully as You know, we would like to if it was a little bit easier to get places, especially when you're in a community where everyone else can sort of get those places easy. Not everyone else, but everyone who can drive ⁓ can get those places really easily. ⁓ feeling left out or, you know, feeling like you just can't participate as fully because that that time commitment of travel or ⁓ energy is just so much greater for you to to, you know, join the same activities. A lot of these Devin: Folks, these policymakers, perhaps the council member before she decided to participate in the week without driving. you know, you can hear about non driver, and the immediate assumption could be it is probably is someone living a car free lifestyle, right? You know, that they're that nowadays, which is really great, right? The idea that folks are choosing to live ⁓ by pit taking public transportation or biking or walking or whatever. But it it seems that there can be a little bit of confusion between, you know, this car-free lifestyle and being a car ⁓ a non-driver by default. Where are some points where you see that these two kind of parallel things can work in favor of one another? And then where do you see that that notion could be not necessarily getting in the way of than you know, the needs of non drivers, but how that could be maybe potentially skewing people's perspective when they're doing that. Anna: This is I think like the root of so much of you know, when I think about and I I ⁓ first of all, like I, you know, I do wanna recognize that it's not like a f strict binary between voluntary or involuntary non-drivers, right? ⁓ that, you know, there can be people who may have a driver's license, but like that cost of that extra tank of gas, right, is is too much. Especially right now we're seeing a lot of people sort of shifting away from car trips because of high gas prices. ⁓ or you know, perhaps have an anxiety disorder or a chronic health condition where maybe driving is possible, but gosh, it's not very comfortable and it doesn't feel particularly safe. And so, ⁓ unless it's an absolute emergency, you know, they're not gonna get behind the wheel. ⁓ or, you know, maybe they they could drive if they had a car that with like adaptive hand controls, but that's not something they can afford. And so, ⁓ you know, they're a non-driver because of that, that cost piece, right? So understanding that there's like a continuum and a lot of complexity. But, you know, also recognizing that in advocacy spaces especially, ⁓ there's a lot of people who are really excited about the car free lifestyle. ⁓ and, you know, feel ⁓ in some ways it's a sort of like moral superiority that comes across, right? Like I'm car free and therefore, you know, I'm not, you know, killing the planet and I'm, you know, living a healthier lifestyle and and it comes off as privilege, right? Because ⁓ often there is a lot of privilege ⁓ required to be able to set up your life in a way where being car free is convenient, right? ⁓ whether that's living in a place that has sidewalks or reliable transit ⁓ or bike lanes or having, you know, the the physical ability to bike. ⁓ having, you know, not having particular caregiving responsibilities that make ⁓ biking or taking transit, you know, trickier. Right. And when we do have people who are in decision making roles or in, you know, positions of power ⁓ in our in our agencies in government ⁓ who are sympathetic to reducing car dependency, often that experience comes from the place of of being someone who is, you know, sort of a choice non-driver. And I think it's great, you know, that we have people who are wanting to reduce car dependency, right? Like we need a bigger tent. We need a bigger coalition of people who ⁓ want to have less car dependent communities. But I think it's important for some of the people who are making who who are, you know, car free by choice to recognize that ⁓ the choices they have are maybe choices that other non-drivers don't have. And things that work for them ⁓ may not work for other non-drivers. ⁓ and and understanding that their experience isn't ⁓ you know, can't be the experience of everyone ⁓ who is a non-driver. ⁓ and that that it's important to to sort of bring in some of those other perspectives, experiences into decision making as well. ⁓ so that we're designing systems, you know, that can work for a broader range of people. ⁓ I think about like, you know, for example, ⁓ like shared bikes and scooters. And who they those systems are designed for, right? And and versus like the population of non-drivers more broadly that they could serve if they were designed differently, right? ⁓ so like if you have a two-wheel, you know, scooters, you know, you require you to be able to ride that kind of device, require you not to have kids or groceries, like you're excluding ⁓ a lot of folks, right? It requires you to have a certain income to be able to pay a dollar a minute for using them, right? ⁓ versus if you were to set up a system. of shared micromobility ⁓ that was designed to reach more people, especially more people who were excluded from ⁓ car ownership or being able to drive a car. Devin: I will invite you next time you come here to visit our shared mobility, micromobility, city owned program. ⁓ they also have adaptive cycles. So yeah, it's ⁓ it i it it's great when you have policymakers that think about those kind of things. Yeah. And we have parking specifically in our garages for adaptive cycles and things like that too. Anna: God, yeah, just to shout out, like at your city hall, there was a parking spot in front of City Hall that was a disabled biking parking spot. And I was like, I took a picture of it because I was like mind blown. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ that first of all, that there was like a visibility for disabled biking, like as a you know, like, ⁓ yeah, anyway. ⁓ so yeah, not that it's not possible to design micromobility systems that do this. Like Lyme Bike in Paris has bikes, you know, kids' seats on the back of some of their bikes. I think that's like really cool. ⁓ you know, there are low income, you know, programs for some of these companies offer. And my neighborhood, Lyme, has a lot of has a low income program that's used by a lot of middle schoolers. I know the middle schoolers aren't supposed to be using it. ⁓ but you know, a lot of the the black and brown youth in in in ⁓ South Seattle are active, active, active ⁓ shared mobility users. And so, you know, there's demand for this. ⁓ but it the you know, the systems aren't necessarily ⁓ set up or designed for ⁓ for the full spectrum of people who who need to and want to use them. Devin: I think you touched on something that I can personally say a lot of folks don't in the policy space don't think about. And that is this economically two sides of the same coin, right? So owning a car is very expensive. Owning a car in Seattle, at least as of two years ago, the average household in Seattle had 1.5 cars. And so that pretty low for the United States. But that was still, you know, about $13,000 a year that they were spending on insurance and gas and all this other stuff. ⁓ and then you look at the k kind of alternative to that folks who are able to choose to go car free, a lot of times when you have that choice, you live in a neighborhood that facilitates that, right? And I in a lot of these neighborhoods, these kind of more centralized neighborhoods with amenities within walking distance and all this stuff, you're priced out of that neighborhood as well. If you're the person who a lot of times depends on their car. And so it is kind of this damned if you do, do damned if you don't, and it economically, right? And that that is getting to that root of that system. ⁓ that we follow in the United States and a lot of places around the world as well. And ⁓ yeah, it that does take a lot of effort to be able to to kind of get people to realize that you have to invest you have to make public investment in this kind of thing to be able to Take that burden off of the shoulders of the people that are feeling it. And so that makes me wonder, you know, you just started the non-drivers alliance. Looking 10 years in the future, do you feel that your role in 2036 is going to be pushing policymakers to make those decisions? Is it going to be helping people elevate their stories? Is it going to be a combination of both? What would your hope be? Anna: That's a really good question. You know, it feels like what the work we're doing is really evolving. You know, we started out, I mean, with this sort of broader narrative change mission, right? Of like making visible ⁓ non-drivers, right? ⁓ and especially ⁓ you know, non-drivers by default, disabled and low-income non-drivers who really, you know, don't have the option of opting into driving. and and and so using that right to to begin to shift. ⁓ shift the narrative but then shift i and build sort of a a a community that can hold our elected leaders and decision makers accountable. And so I, you know, I I I do believe in organizing. And so hoping that we can continue starting here in Washington state, ⁓ you know, to to really sort of build a a a a cohort of folks who are gonna ⁓ hold our elected leaders accountable ⁓ to making investments that that we need. ⁓ to to you know make our communities less car dependent. I am in some ways really hopeful in that I think there's a younger generation of folks who are questioning car dependency much more than even our generation ⁓ has, ⁓ and are really, really ⁓ strongly interested in not having to pay for a car and not having to have that anxiety and stress and driving. ⁓ and being able to to live in a place where where that isn't necessary. And so I do hope ⁓ that, you know, that will help us shift ⁓ political momentum. I do think, I mean, I'm I'm less hopeful about the boomer generation, like people like my folks who are aging out of driving. there will be a lot of them aging out of driving, but I think ⁓ you know, for them sort of growing up in the era that they did, the a freedom associated with driving is so deeply ingrained. That it's really challenging for them to imagine a world where they can have a full and wonderful life without driving. And so, you know, part of part of this storytelling is perhaps aimed at reaching that generation of folks who are at the cusp of aging out of driving. Because there will be a lot, a lot of people in the boomer generation who maybe can start to see themselves ⁓ supporting and fighting for communities. ⁓ where they can continue to thrive ⁓ even when they can no longer drive. Devin: Personal experience is such a huge motivator, right? And folks like that that are kind of grappling with the idea of losing autonomy. I think that is definitely when they get that opportunity to to learn and to grow. ⁓ you know, and to see that there are folks that have never had that autonomy. and, you know, those are also future allies. Most of your professional career, in one way or another, you have been advocating. ⁓ on behalf of people with disability as a non-driver. For you know, the folks out there that are maybe our age, older, younger, it doesn't matter, you know, there are people in their lives that are gonna be ⁓ either discouraged or afraid to go out there, put themselves out there, maybe to be the one nut ⁓ who's coming to their city council meetings to talk about this stuff. you what are some words of advice that you might have for someone who is looking to get into ⁓ advocacy, you know, in their community. Anna: For me, having been in, you know, in sort of advocacy spaces for a long time, one of the things that I have learned from people who have been doing advocacy work for, you know, their lives is that you have to do it in a way that, you know, f feels sustainable to you. ⁓ because oftentimes it's easy to sort of mobilize around a crisis and, you know, put a lot of energy and and and you know, work really hard on something. And then, you know, perhaps you you win, perhaps you don't. ⁓ more often you probably lose. ⁓ and feel really discouraged and burned out. And so, you know, for this work to really build and to build this sort of and grow the way we need it to, we need to be able to do it in a way that feels sustainable to each of us. And so, ⁓ you know, n finding finding the the joy in in the connections you build with people, recognizing that. even when you, you know, lose, ⁓ that you that this work continues and needs to continue and that bit by bit we are making change. And so I I think that that to me is is, you know, something I would, you know, yes, it's great to like, you know, feel like a particular moment and build that sense of crisis around something that's happening and and trying to, you know, get something to happen or get something not to happen that feels really important. Like that's that's key. But also remembering at the end of the day that we this is gonna be a lifetime of work. for all of us and so doing it in a way that f that that you can sustain. and and doing it in a way that you build the relationships ⁓ that sustain you I think is is really important. Devin: That's a really great way of looking at it. I mean, because yeah, you're gonna there will be failure in in organizing. I feel like there's more failure than there are successes, but you have to live for those successes, right? And when I first started doing political organizing, one of the first campaign managers that I worked for, you know, being a Seattle boy, I was a little gloomy. And he sat me down one day and he said that you really, even if you don't truly believe that this is going to work out, you have to tell yourself that it will. And you cannot work in politics. You cannot work in organizing if you don't believe that. And and now I do. Now I always do. Now I'm like the cheerleader. And you know, and I I I find that really interesting, right? Like that it is a slog, but it's very, very rewarding on those moments. Would you get these small victories and you're gonna celebrate those small victories? Well, I have one last question for you, and you kind of touched on this already. But what what is one thing that does make you hopeful for non-drivers in the future? You talked about maybe the folks in the boomer generation coming around, but are there any and and the youth as well, folks ⁓ younger than us who are embracing ⁓ themselves a little bit more than folks in our generation? But are are there any other things? Anna: Actually, you know, before I get there, I just thought of something else I wanted to say in the previous question. And that is, you know, in this sort of way to make this work, you know, sustainable for you for the long term, I think, you know, finding also the parts of the work that feel like they align with what makes you happy, right? Like I know for example, like, you know, testifying at public hearings, not my favorite thing to do. I mean, and I don't know if it's very many people's favorite thing, but like finding the pieces of the work that like, you know, for me it's writing, ⁓ it's it's interviewing people, it's meeting one on one with people. Like I love those those pieces. I hate going to large events, ⁓ in a crowded room full of people and trying to network. Like that is awful to me, right? ⁓ you know, my I'm thinking of, you know, I a coworker, ⁓ former coworker who is a wonderful artist and is designing some beautiful art for week without driving, right? Like figuring out the parts of you know the the pieces of you that you can bring to this ⁓ that that actually you know ⁓ make you feel happy at the end of the day ⁓ versus like dreading having to do a particular thing. And we all have to do those things that we dread right in the in the work. ⁓ no one well maybe some people enjoy invoicing writing, but like you know there's there's or or grant writing, you know, like there's things that we, you know, aren't aren't, you know, for me particularly enjoyable ⁓ that I still do. But then I really try to create space. ⁓ and and recognize that I know the work is I'm I'm gonna be able to bring the most to the work ⁓ by by choosing the pieces and and shaping the work around what, you know, feels exciting to me in that moment. That's my other piece of advice. As far as, you know, hope, gosh. I mean, I do think, you know, for me it really does come from having these conversations with people. ⁓ you know, the conversations we're gonna be having with non drivers on this podcast, ⁓ Have for me been like wonderful, wonderful conversations as I've gotten to to hear people's experiences, which, you know, often are pretty different from my own, but then are are similar in that, you know, we've all grown up in communities that were really codependent for the most part, ⁓ and had to figure out ways to sort of hack it, ⁓ to to live the lives we want to live. And, you know, the people that we're we're gonna be interviewing here are people that really have, despite a lot of you know, barriers, ⁓ made it work, right? And have figured out ways to ⁓ to stay connected and to have full lives. And yes, it's not perfect. And yes, there's a lot of things that could be better. ⁓ but you know, showing that it is it is possible even with our current infrastructure, even in places that aren't, you know, New York City or DC or, you know, San Francisco or downtown Seattle, where there is, you know, transit. Even in places that don't have that level of access, you know, through a combination of things, you know, it is possible to live as a non-driver ⁓ and live as a a non-driver by default, right? An involuntary non-driver. and and so I think that gives me hope because even with as as you know, tricky as it can be, ⁓ there are a lot of us out there making it work. ⁓ and I think, you know, part of, you know, wanting to tell these stories is to make people feel less alone. ⁓ and make more people feel like they can try it. ⁓ or that, you know, i if for whatever reason they can't drive anymore, ⁓ cost or age or disability, right? That it's not the end of the world. Like there are ways to make it work. If we push together, we can start to make it a little bit easier bit by bit, to the point where it isn't such a defining characteristic of our lives. Devin: Well, thanks, Ona, for talking to me and and kind of opening up a little bit ⁓ as we as we start this project. ⁓ you know, personally I think it's it's really, really worth being ⁓ vulnerable about who we are to show, you know, that we're here and and ready to listen to people and to share their stories in in good faith. And so really appreciate this and looking forward to ⁓ our next ⁓ couple of episodes coming up. Anna: Thanks, Devin. Yeah, no, I I think that what you said around being vulnerable, right? Like we are asking people to share a lot. ⁓ and so we wanted to put ourselves out there first. ⁓ and we did. ⁓ so now you get to know us and yeah, we'll we'll be back soon with with more interviews and more stories. Thanks for listening to Non-Driver. I'm Anna Ziebart. Devin: And I'm Devin Silvernail. If today's conversation resonated with you, please subscribe and share the show with a friend. Anna: You can also leave us a review wherever you listen. It genuinely helps other people find the show. Devin: Non-Driver is brought to you by the NonDrivers Alliance. Find more info at non-drivers.org. Anna: And this episode was produced by Devon. Devin: Wanna get in touch? Email us at non-driverpodcast at proton dot me. Anna: We'll see you next week.