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Iran: A Different Perspective | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Good morning to everybody. I'm here at home in my
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: man cave with a cup of coffee, and I'm delighted
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to say after a little bit of a tricky arrangements,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: I finally managed to be here on Zoom with Lazare,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: who's an Iaranian gentleman who contacted me a little while
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: ago to say I think there's more to the story
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: in Iran than UK column has been telling, and so
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: we've got a great opportunity today to have a chat,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: very informal and see what comes out of it. So, Lazare,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: thank you very much for getting in contact with the
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: column and emailing me.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: I'm very pleased to be talking to you lovely.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you. So just set the scene a little bit.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: You're obviously here in UK. How long how long have
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: you been living in UK? So what's your background and
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: how long have you been living in UK?
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Right? Well, I arrived in the UK in nineteen seventy
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: eight with my dad from Iran, and so that makes
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: it what forty seven years now that I've been in
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: the UK, and I've only been back to Iran once
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: after my dad died, just just briefly too, you know,
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: to kind of do the sort of things you do
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: after member of family dies, just to collect the last
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: bits of pensions from him. So that was obviously after
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: the revolution. So we left just before the revolution. So
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: as in you know, the Islamic Revolution of nineteen seventeen nine,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I think it's normally referred to as so. I mean,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: I remember still being in the in the hotel that
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: we saw the pictures of the of the demonstrations in
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: the streets of Tehran, in complete amazement and disbelief that
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: that kind of thing could happen there. And that's when
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: it basically all started, really and so anyway, it's a
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: long story. I mean, I don't want to keep too
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: much of your time and the time of your viewers.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: But my father had decided to actually emigrate to the UK.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: So he had applied to the British embassy and everything,
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: which is only down the road from us where we
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: lived back then, and anyway, there was problems with my
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: college and so he decided, right, I'll come with you,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: I'll settle you down over there, and then I'll come
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: back for the interview. That never happened, of course, because
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: of the situation that arose with the demonstrations and the
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: eventual toppling of the monarchy and the arrival of Romania
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: and all that which and the rest, as they say,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: is history. So I've lived in the UK for the
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: past forty seven years.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Now, okay, And have you been able to go back
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: to Iran.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: To visit I've been only back once, as I mentioned
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: earlier on just to you know, after my father died.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: That was in nineteen eighty nine, eighty eighteen nine ninety Yeah,
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: just to you know, like collect the last bits of
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: his pension and that kind of thing, and that was
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: the only occasion for a week. But non nonsense, not
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: the occasions since. I mean, I can go if I
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: want to, but there's nothing stopping me going. I don't
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: think they'll arrest me or anything, because I've never said
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: anything against the regime openly anyway. So I hope I'll
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: be able to go if I wanted to, if the
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: regime carries on, of course.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: Indeed, well we've got a lot to talk about. This
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: chat came about because you contacted the column, and in
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: fact a couple of other Iranians did, saying there's sort
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: of more to this story than UK column has been reporting,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: And I was very interesting this. So I've recently spoken
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: to another gentleman and I hope to be talking to
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: him again because we did have a private conversation. You
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: contacted me with an email, and then I also received
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: a call from a lady, one of the UK column
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: viewers and supporters, and she said that she had a friend,
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: a lady who was an Iranian who was very very
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: concerned as to what it recently happened in Iran. And
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: therefore this prompted me to sort of reach out and
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: see whether I could speak to some of you. So
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: I have managed to talk to one gentleman. I have
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: managed to talk to three ladies. That was a very
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: short conversation, but we're going to reconvene and do more.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: And it's already been very interesting for me to hear
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: what people have said. I think probably the most important
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: thing for me to say is that clearly a lot
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: of emotion. So what has taken place in Iran and
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: and what has been reported in the West clearly very
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: tragic and serious stuff where a lot of people have
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: been hurt, and clearly this is impacted on people that
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: are living in UK and elsewhere. So is that a
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: reasonable sort of summary for you, Azare, would you like
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: to add anything? So then really comes over to you
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: because you are here living in UK and I'm sure
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: that you're well connected. What is your opinion on the
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: recent events in Iran and the effect that they've had
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: probably on the Iranian community, not only in Iran but
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: also overseas.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Well, Brian, I mean, the Islamic Republic ever since it
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: came into power, has shown its it's true, its color
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: to the people. And I mean, if we go way
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: back to how it all started, of course there were
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: the satisfactions with the Shah's government, all sorts of things.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't that all bed of roses in Iran,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: you know, certainly not, but it most certainly wasn't a
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: kind of country that it eventually became under the excuse me,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: under the clerics. So throughout those forty years there have
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: been all sorts of currents, political currents, and these satisfactions
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: expressed to the government in different ways. There have been
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: factions who have not faction so many but like what
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: do they call them in reformists.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, My feeling is that for many Iranians they're looking
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: at the West, at UK. At the west had been
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: green grass, possibly the night in shining Armor to come
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: and save them. But here that we are with the
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: UK column has been warning people for the past twenty
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: years at the dangers of governments in the West, and
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: I just see that the Iranians are so desperate to
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: deal with the regime they will accept anything to achieve that,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: and ultimately that's not going to end up in a
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: good place. I don't know what your response to that
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: would be.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Well, an immediate response to that would be so what's
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: the alternative if not, excuse me, if not looking to
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: the West as a model, look a where as a model.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: May I remind you that before the Islamic Revolution, Iranians
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: had a taste of that, and I know you would
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: criticize that. During the Shah, the country was very much
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: leaning towards the West, at least politically, and so, however,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: excuse me. The reason that the Shah was toppled was
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: because he was trying to be very independent from everybody,
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: not just just the West, everybody really, and Americans in
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: particular didn't like that. By him increasing the prices of oil,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: by raising the standard, by trying to turn Iran into
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: an independent, peaceful area in the Middle East, an industrializing
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: area in the Middle East. The West didn't like that,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: and that's why he was toppled. But what would be
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: the alternative At the time, of course, as in I'm
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: talking about forty odd years, forty eight years ago, the
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: polarity was of course between the West and the Soviet Union.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: Don't forget that Soviet Union shares a border with Iran,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: or shared a border with Iran those days. And it
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: has been a very significant desire of Russians, I mean
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: even before the Soviet Unit, mean during Tarist Russia to
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: have access to the warm waters of the South, you know,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: of the Gulf, and so they have always wanted to
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: have the medal into the affairs of Iran as well
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: them as well. You know, it's not just the West.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: And in fact, there were a couple of attempts, one
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: of them way back in I'll try and keep this short,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: but during the Second World War, the Communists managed to
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: incite the r Zeries in Iran, and in fact, there
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: is a very significant proportion of Arzeris living in Iran
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: even now and then, of course, and so they incited
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: the Arzeries to uh, basically, what do you call it?
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Declare an independent Democratic Republic of Azibaijan basically, which was
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: basically a communist going to be Communist led. It was
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: led by the communists, the Russians, and eventually they were
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: beaten back. In fact, they made quite a lot of
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: progress into the country, but they were beaten back. So anyway,
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying is Russia and current Russia as well,
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: they have an eye on Iran. So what's the alternative.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: If the Uranians don't look at the West, where would
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: they look at China? They are doing that now, they're
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: selling all they're oil to China. For example, Russia, they're
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: supplying weapons to the Russians. You know, they're supplying that
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: drones to the Russians. So I mean that polarity still exists.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: So I suppose you have to take one side or
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: another in some respect. You can be independent, reasonably independent,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: you can trade, in my view, you can trade under
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: the right conditions with either side. And that's what Shah did.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: In fact, during his days, you know, it wasn't just Americans.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You know, he was giving big contracts to the Soviets
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: as well at the time. So he was trying to
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: play these two against each other. Keep the balance, and
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I think that would work for a new government. You know,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: it's not a matter of having just one polarity and
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: being gravitated towards that and ignoring the rest of the world.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: So the Iranians, I think Iranians, the current Iranian population
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: is very politically aware, very politically realistic, very astute. Going
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: back to the lifestyle, See, the Iranians want a different lifestyle.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Their lifestyle has been so dramatically changed since the coming
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: of the Islamists that you know, they feel a they
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: feel being suffocated basically, and what they want is somewhere
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: where they can breathe, a regime, a system in which
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: they can brief they had this were at least in
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: a certain way during the Shah because there was no
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: Islamic religious restrictions on the people. People could do based
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: pretty much what they liked with people. They were. People
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: were very westernized generally speaking. You know, there was no
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: restrictions in women's dressers and this sort of thing. You know,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: people generally felt comfortable in the Iran of the Shah's period.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: People haven't felt that since the Islamists came to power
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: and so Iran Iranians, the vast majority of Iranians want
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: a taste of that. That you get, I understand from
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: my little understanding of politics, I suppose is by having
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: a democratic government which is prepared to talk to pretty
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: much everybody else, Iranians decided not to talk. Iranians has in.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: The Islamists of Iran decided to isolate themselves. That's what
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: they've done for the past forty odd years. They isolated
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: themselves from the West, they isolated themselves even from some
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: of the Islamic countries in the Middle East. However, what
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: they did was to become a significant threat to Israel. Now,
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: I know, you have a lot of bad things to
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: say about Israel, and you know, we can talk about
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to say that Israel makes no mistakes,
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: as Israel is to be, you know, and there's issues
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: with Israel. I understand that, you know. But Islamic Republic
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: has made a manifesto, has made a commitment to actually
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: destroy Israel. I mean, what would you do if you
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: were an Israeli leader, you know? I mean, look, they
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: have said in their parliament, in their media all the time,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: they keep repeating this mantra that they will destroy israel.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is one of their favorite phrases. I
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: am repeating this verbatim. We will wipe Israel off the
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: map of the world. I mean, I know they're good
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: at rhetoric, but unfortunately this isn't just rhetoric. You know,
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: they've actually taken steps towards that. They have developed the
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: massive arsenal of a stock of rockets, which we've seen
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: in the twelve day twelve day war, recent twelve day
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: war in what was it, June July, they managed to
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: actually hurt Israel a little bit. You know, they have
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: have actually been supporting a number of very nefarious organizations
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: with sometimes I'm afraid I found UK columns speak of
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: positively like Hamas, like Hasable, their direct export to Middle East,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: to Lebanon, like the whoties, like the shah balche in
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: what they called Chabal hash Dane, something like that in Iraq.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Anybody basically who has the aim of destroying Israel their support.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: They have poured billions and billions and dollars into these organizations,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: and this is one of the reasons the popular people
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: of Iran are protesting, say why are you spending our money,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: the taxpayers money, the income from our oil on these
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: organizations while aren't just spending it on your own people.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: This is one of the things that Iranians are frustrated about.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: You know, if if there is Wigrip, probably wasn't there.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Hams probably wouldn't be there, certainly not to that extent,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: and certainly has bulaudn't be there in that extent again
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: in Lebanon at et cetera, et cetera. So it's both
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: an economic thing for Iranians and a kind of social
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: thing because socially, as I said, they feel very repressed
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: and economically. Brian, you would only know this if you
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: lived in Iran. You know, if you lived in Iran.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: If the people in the West, who are very skeptical
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: of the Western governments for good reasons, I understand that
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: if only you guys lived there for let's say six months,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: you would actually see You'll be able to talk to people,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: You'll be able to live. You say, you try and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: have an income yourself, if try to work there. People. Look,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: poverty is becoming a major issue in Iran these days.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: You know, people can't afford to put food in front
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: of their family. Ay, you know, not to any extent,
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean the prices of meat and dairy
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: and things like that are absolutely have absolutely skyrocketed. People
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: just cannot afford. So this is partly an economic issue,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: partly a social issue, and the other part is the
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: political issue. Is from the viewpoint of international relationships, Iranians
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: don't want to be isolated. At the time of the Shah,
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: they weren't isolated. Iran was very highly regarded by most
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: of the word. Iranians had no problem traveling to other
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: parts of the world, especially the West. Nowadays, you know,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, Iranian passport is extremely notorious. So anyway to
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: cut the story short, I think Iranian people understand the
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: reality of the situation. They do not think that the
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: grass will be greener on the other side if the
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: regime goes and a pro Western government comes along. They
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: know that they will still have issues that they'll have
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: to deal with. But at the same time, they want
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: a change, and this is the vast majority. Please do
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: not believe the Islamic Republic's statistics because the reality, even
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: their own statistics can't say that. Statistics have shown that
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: the support for their government has just plummeted, absolutely plummeted
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: over the years. Of course, it was better in the
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: early days of the revolution because it was the people
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: who held them up. But now people do not want
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: to hold them up anymore, and they want an alternative.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, we can talk about those alternatives later on
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: if you like. That's where we are.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: I think, okay, thank you for that. One of the
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: things that I've been told so far is that with
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: respect to the brutality that has taken place in Irano
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: over the recent weeks, people have seen that I was
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: going to say often, but I can actually say that
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: people have seen that on occasions, the people who've been
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: particularly brutal in carrying out the States actions against demonstrators
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: on those people have not been Iranians.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, and there is evidence for that, complete evidence
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: for that.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: And the two nationalities that were mentioned to me were
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Iraqi and I think Azubaijohanese, but maybe that was not correct,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: but the point was made to me very strongly that
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: where there had been extreme brutality enforced against protesters, it
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: would appear that on some occasions these people are not
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: the Iranian So what are they? Are they? And I'm
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: asking this question, are they are they people who've migrated
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: legitimately into Iran? And established themselves, or are these people
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: that have come into Iran in order to help foment
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: problems for the Iranian people.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, they're absolutely the latter, I mean they were.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: The two groups that I've heard about predominantly were the
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: hashtag Shaabies. This was a group formed in Iraq. I
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: think it was formed at the time of the Isis crisis,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: and they were originally meant to they were formed to
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: kind of fight off the fight off Isis. But since
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: then they've become a basically law to themselves. And because
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: they are Shi'ahs, they have been supported by the Islamic Republic,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: and the Islamic Republic have certainly used them before in
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: other situations, and again there is evidence of it. No
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: evidence is really clear. Everybody knows this. They even have
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: a garrison dedicated to these foreign mercenaries. A lot of
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: them are made up of this Hashti shabby Iraqis. The
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: other group I've heard were some Afghanim what do you
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: call them? A Taliban basically as well. I hadn't heard
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: about the Asiris. That might be true, but I will
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: be surprised about the Osiris because as I said, there
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: are a large number of Iranians, you know. So I
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: think there'll be that that I don't know, I might
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: not need to look into that, but predominantly Hashtall Shabby,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: iraqis absolutely they were there. They were identified by people,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: They had heard them speak Arabic among themselves, you know.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: And as I said, people know that they actually brought
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: them there and trained them, the Iranians, and they had
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: a garrison that they would keep them there for occasions
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: like this, to be honest, So definitely foreign. I mean,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: the majority majority of the crushing was carried out by
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: the Iranian elite forces, the IRGCSAR says, right, but among
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: them were certainly foreign mercenaries, right.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: And very interesting that you said earlier on one of
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: those elite guards had blown the whistle and made a
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: statement on on what he'd witnessed, so that that would
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: be very interesting to learn about.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Watch my video on that. It's a translation of what
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: the gentleman who had heard it had said.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: I get details from you on that, and we make
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: sure we can post that with the video. Just to
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: focus a little bit on Israel, and I wanted to
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: just push back a little bit. Is that we've got
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: we've certainly been highly critical at the Israeli state operating.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I just want to qualify this because I've also, over
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the last year, made an attempt to be able to
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: speak to members of the Jewish community who clearly got
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: concerns about policies in Israel. So if you talk Israel,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: what are you talking about? We are overwhelmingly talking about
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: the system of government. We're talking about the government of
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Israel as opposed to the whole populace of that country.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing to say. But we've
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: just witnessed you said to me a few moments ago. Well,
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: the government in Iran has openly stated, albeit with rhetoric,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: that it's going to wipe Israel off the map. We've
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: also got an Israel that has demonstrated by its actions
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: that it's prepared to simply wipe We don't quite know
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: what the figure still is, but seventy five thousand Palestinians
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: absolutely wiped off the map. Some of the latest figures
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: that I've seen from the BBC's information talking about forty
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: five thousand elderly people and children simply killed, and Gaza
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: absolutely demolished. So the Israeli state on a scale of
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: brutality has matched, or I think most people would say
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: outperformed anything that the Islamic State has done. And therefore,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: for me, as an outsider, I think to myself, Iran
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: must be very careful of where it goes. And I'm
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: talking about Iran as the people of Iran, Iranians in
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: deciding what their future has got to be. Because if
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: threats have been made from Iran against Israel, we've got
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: an Israeli government which is unleashed brutality which I don't
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: think has ever been ever been seen in peace. It's
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: been seen in war, certainly in Eastern Europe, but this
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: is incredible brutality. And many, many would argue that Israel
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: has had a hand in fomenting the unrest which has
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: subsequently led to these deaths in Iran. What would your
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: response be to that? I will object that vehemently. Well,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: I would say that this movement has come out of
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Iranians themselves. They have been encouraged by Iranians from abroad,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: but most certainly not by Israel. And look, I've heard
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: this before, and I've heard on your program say things
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: like this.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: That all those previous previous movements, for example, had been
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: funded even by the CIA or more sad and things
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: like that, I think that's nonsense. Quite frankly, I absolutely
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: reject that. Certainly with regard to the current movement, it
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: is very much come out of the Iranian problem, the
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: problems that Iranian people have. And I'm going to leave
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: the discussion over Palestine and everything out, Brian, because that's
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: outside my remitter knowledge and I think in some respects
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: irrelevant really to what we're talking about. But as far
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: as the relationship of Iran and Israel is concerned, well, look,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: I mean during the Shah's time and again you say, well, okay,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: he was pro Western and pro Israel, he was absolutely
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: you know, he had no problem with Israel because Israel
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: had no problem with Iran as well. There was a large,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: very significant Jewish community in Iran and there still are
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: some left, but at the time, the very significant community
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: of Jewish Iranians no problems. Of course ever, and of
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: course you probably know from your history and the Bible, Brian,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: that relationship of between Persia and Jews has been goes
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: back thousands of years before, and Iranians and the Jews
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: themselves acknowledge the significance that Cyrus played of course in
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: letting the Jews back from captivity in Babylon. Know that,
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: and Iranians know that, and they acknowledged that. You know,
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: So there have been good relationships between Iran and Israel.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Israel has no reason to get into hostility with Iran.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Why it doesn't share aboard you know, Iran has got
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with Israel really in political terms. They
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: might have relationships. By the way, in spite of the
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: good relationships, Iran, as far as I know, did not
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: have a formal relationship with ISIL. In other words, they
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: did not have an embassy in Iran. I don't know why,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: but anyway, that was the situation even then, because you know,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: the situation was quite tense even in those days in
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: terms of recognition of Israel by various countries and stuff
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: like that. But anyway, that aside, Iran or Iranians should
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: feel no animosity towards Israel. Why whatever the Israel Israel
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: the country is I mean, of course, Israel in itself,
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: with its politics internal politics, will displease a number of
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: its own people. People outside Israel well, can be opponents
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: of the Israeli government. Shore yeah, I mean that happens
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: to every government in the world. But as far as
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: their relationship with iranis concerned, Israelis should not have to
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: fear Iranians, and Iranians should not have to fear Israeli.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: So that's how I see it, you know, basically a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: government which is not intent on the destruction of Israel.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: And it's gone well beyond the rhetoric Brian because they're
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: actually putting their money where there also expectially putting their
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: money where their map is. Yeah, literally, because they have
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: spent all those billions on their proxy armies surrounding Israel
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: to hit them. They have also developed all those rockets
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: to hit them. Of course, the only occasion that Israel
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: attacked Israel attacked Iran was recent of course, recently in
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: last summer, wasn't it because of the nuclear situation and
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: all that. But otherwise Israel would leave Iran alone and Iranians,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I'm sure would like to have good relationship. That mean. Look,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Israel is so well known for its technology, for its
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: brain power, and Iran could really use that. I mean,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: one of the biggest problems in Iran these days is
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: believe it or not, just lack of water and for example,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: they could use Uranian sorry, Israeli technology in desalelating water
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: for example, and whish they did all those decades back
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: way back. You know, when they were trying to develop
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: some of the southern cities or little islands that Iran
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: has in the Gulf, they were using Israeli technology for
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: creating water for them, and they could do the same
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: now for example. I'm just just trying to pick something
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: out of thin air to try and use as an example.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: But you know, they does not need to be animosity
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: between Iran and Israel. That's my final sort of say
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: on that.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, my immediate response on that, bizarre would be
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: that when we talk in terms of populations of people,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: nations of people, I think we rarely see the ordinary
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: not being disrespectful. The ordinary people of the country are
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: not the ones who are clamoring for war with other
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: nation states. It invariably comes down to the political leaders
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: in those countries who are the people are doing that.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: And I can talk to as I do. I talk
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: to people who come from many different parts of the world,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: and it's very interesting that people will say, well, you know,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: I went I went to Ukraine and I actually met
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: lovely people. That doesn't mean say everybody's lovely, but the
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: feeling was when they went to Ukraine, they met they
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: lovely people. People will say this about about meeting Russians,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: They'll say it about Americans. So when we are dealing
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: with the man and the woman, what's their life about.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: It's living a productive and enjoyable life and producing a
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: family and getting on into old age. They are not
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: the ones fermenting the wars. But clearly we have other people.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: We've just.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: We've just, you know, seen Boris Johnson once again clamoring
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: to get troops into Ukraine. And of course he says
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: these are peaceful troops. But Boris was the man who
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: clearly was working to make sure that there was no
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: peace agreement with the Russians. I've drifted back a little
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: bit on the fact that when we see the bigger
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: pieces on the world chessboard moving, clearly there are malicious
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: political powers at work. So your basic position that that
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: if ordinary Iranians could have their way, they would want
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: to remove the existing government and they would want a
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: more democratic system. I can understand why that would be.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: My concern is still that there is more happening around
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Iran than the ordinary man on the woman on the
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: street sees. And probably something that reinforces it for me
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: is that in this country, the average person that you
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: talk to cannot see the danger unfolding with policies that
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: are coming through the UK government. Terrible terrible things being
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: put in place which the average person has no concept
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: to what's happening. And those policies, although they're being enacted
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: in UK, are actually coming from a from a globalist position,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: because we're seeing the same policies unfold in UK and
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: France and Germany, in Western Europe and also the States.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: So if Iranians are going to achieve their goal, their
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: dream of where they want, I don't mean that in
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: a derogatory way that their dream of what they would
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: like the country to be. I personally think there's got
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: to be a big increase in understanding of the pieces
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: moving on the chessboard around them. But that doesn't detract
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: in any way from the fact that clearly some horrible
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: things have gone on and this has had a bigger
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: effect on the passion of the Iranian people. Blazarre, let
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: me ask you a question with respect information. Will say,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: the evidence coming out of Iran as to what has
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: taken place. You, I think you mentioned a figure of
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: thirty six and a half thousand people, and you talked
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: about the regime countering was saying, well, it was just
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: about two to three thousand people. I think I've heard
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: three and a half thousand people. How do we actually
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: get to the bottom where how do we establish the
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: evidence to actually see what did unfold in the country. Now,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: as you said, if three thousand people have been killed,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: that is still horrific. But if the figure is thirty
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: five thousand and thirty six thousand, it was being talked
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: about as if it was fifty thousand and above in
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: the early days. There is an importance with knowing what
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the scale is because, of course the Western media will
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: attempt to miss lead the public by inflating the scale
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: and brutality of what's happening in Iran. How do we
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: get to what the real figure is?
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: That's not easy. Brian and all of those Iranians, the
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: pundits speaking on various programs on the internet, the Iranian
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: news programs, they all acknowledge that, look, these figures remain estimates,
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: but the estimates, the higher estimates, are what most people
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: against speaking outside the are on favor because of the
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: evidence that they have. Now, let me say, at the beginning,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: is Iranian government, the Islamic regime shut down the internet
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: on the on the days from the sixth or the
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: sixth and the Seid no, so the seventh and eighth
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: was it of January when the this is the main
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: bulk of the killings to pledge, they shut down the
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: internet so people of Iran could not communicate with people
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: outside Iran. They could not send their videos, they could
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: not send the messages, text or anything like that. That
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: was I think. So there was a complete internet darkness
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: for at least I think it was a good ten
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: days or maybe fourteen days until they kind of eased
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: up slowly and then people started to send images and
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: figures and text out of the country again. Now, one
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: of the sources, one of the sources of news in
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: general for Iranians, both in Iran and abroad, is a
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: news channel which you're probably aware of, called Iran International.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Whatever you think of them, I think they're doing a
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: very good job. So when they talk about these figures,
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: they say, look, we get direct we are directly contacted
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: by the families of people who send information about the dead, children,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: loved ones, whatever. Then they collect all of those things
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: and then try their best to fact check them. They
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: try and cross reference them, check them in how whatever
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: way they can before they actually present a figure. And
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: this apparently is going on constantly. So I have faith
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: in those people, people like them, who are doing this kindent.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: So in other words, the estimate that people outside Iran
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: are concluding is based on reports received directly from Iran,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: from individuals or perhaps various sources. One person I've heard
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: claimed that there was a leaked paper from one of
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: the IRGC like headquarters to the office of the president,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: you know, because he's also the head of the security
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: for the country. And I think in that report was
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: actually mentioned a figure of like many more thousands than
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: the one they actually revealed. So, you know, I think
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: we'll have to I think everybody really has to agree
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: that a government that has carried out some killing on
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: its people is likely not to publish the exact numbers
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: of people that they've killed. And we've seen the of course,
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I suppose the only way in and to establish establish
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: the figures finally would be to check records of hospital records,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: you know, of civil records with regard to funerals and
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: things like that, and again cross shaking them with who
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: was where, who died where, and that kind of thing.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: And this is not going to happen while this government's there.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: This may well happen, perhaps hopefully when the government this
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: one changes and the next comment comes along. But I'm
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: afraid the figure remains an estimate. Yes, yeah, most people
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: are inclined. Certainly most Uranians outside there are inclined to
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: accept the larger figures, and I can see why, and
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: there is pretty good reason to accept the higher figures.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for that. I'd just add, and of
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: course we have the same problem over figures and accuracy
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: of figures coming out of the Ukraine War, because is
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: the Ukrainian government telling the truth about losses on their
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: own side or indeed the Russian side. We can probably
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: say no, they're not. And also the West itself has
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: adopted what's all most of blanket non report. It is
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: not reporting Ukrainian casualties with any accuracy. In my opinion,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: they're being grossly underestimated. So this isn't just a problem
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: from within Iran. That's that is for sure. Now, I
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: had another question which just drifted into my head, and
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: of course it's going to go again now. Oh, yes,
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: it was that that one of the comments made to
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: me was about medical staff who had attempted to intervene
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: in order to just help people who were injured wounded
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: within the riots. And those included both people on the
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: ordinary people in the streets and also people from the
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: government forces. But a number, I don't know how many,
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: but a number of doctors and other medical staff that
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: attempted to help were themselves either shot. Later some of
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: them were seem to have been arrested, and I understand
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: they're still in prison. Do you know anything about that.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know a great deal about hospital staff, but
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: I can tell you this that there is certainly very
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: clear evidence that people in the streets, when they rushed
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: to help a shot individual, so help people who ran
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: and to kind of pull them out of the situation,
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: they were shot too there and then. And also there
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: is very clear evidence that the security forces have gone
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: into hospitals, found demonstrators who'd been shot, who had been treated,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: and actually killed them in the hospital on their bed.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: There is evidence for them. I mean, you can't make
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: this things up bright. You know, this is this is
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: absolutely horrific, you know, because I.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Know that bodies found on the streets when family members
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: or other members of the public were able to see
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: bodies that were lying on the streets. So I'm not
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: I'm not talking about people who fell because they were
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: they were shot. That these were bodies that appeared in
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: the streets, often in large numbers after the events. That
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: many of those had still got bandages on. Some of
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: them had catheters, which indicated that they were actually being
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: treated in hospital before they were shot in the hospital
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: or taken away.
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: This wasn't the streets. This would have been in the
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: morgues when they went an example, or wherever they were
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: keeping them in storage areas. You know, they went and
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: looked at the bodies, and yes, absolutely a lot of
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: them looked that they have into venous lines whatever still
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: in place, and many of them had like a shot
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: bullet shot right in the middle of their foreheads.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, you know, you know.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: And and they would also just kill the wounded by
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: the way or on the streets. So if they found
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: somebody who wasn't being held, who was just kind of
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: still lying there, they would arrive there and shoot the
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: final release shot right in the middle of their foreheads,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: you know, like the ones the shooting of people who
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: had been executed afterwards, you know, with the final what
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: was it called cup the grass, isn't it that last shot? Yeah?
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Results think thank you for that. Thank you, yeah, thank
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: you for having this conversation with me, because we'd exchange
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: some emails and a little bit of time has gone by.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: But the more I've been approached by Iranians saying can
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: we tell you what we think, the more I've got
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: interested in not any hearing, but trying to establish what
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: is fact and what is the truth. I think the
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: saddest thing to come out of it is is the
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: emotional impact that these events have made on clearly a
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: large number of Iranian people outside the country. And we've
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: got people who have still got family inside Iran, and
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: some of those are talking about personal family losses in
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: the troubles. And then we've got other people who are
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: who've been living outside Iran for a long period of
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: time and obviously and they don't directly have families in Iran,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: but they're still connected and here and obviously speak the language.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: So I've found I've found it very sad and albeit
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: not on the scale although we're still talking about over
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: the over the time of the troubles in all Ireland
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: when we had the violence taking place and bombings and shootings.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: The figure I think was about three thousand and eight
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: six hundred and eight hundred people killed during the time
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: of the troubles. But I'm going to recount this. It
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: is factual, but many people can take it as an
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: anecdotal comment from me that there was a meeting in
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: a particular location after the troubles and there were people
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: from both sides, on the loyalist loyalist side and the
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: ira side and south of the border in Ireland and
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: north of the border, and the atmosphere in the room
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: when they met was incredibly tense until discussion developed and
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: then one of the people present said, well, let's face it,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: we've all been played. And when those paid people came
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: to understand that the horrible situation and the violence that
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: unfolded in Northern Ireland has got at least to some extent,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: and elements that there was a hidden hand, or maybe
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: not such a hidden hand, helping to ferment what was happening.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: When the people who were had previously been enemies, realized
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: that they'd been played. The whole atmosphere changed and the
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: nature of the conversation changed. So truth is a powerful thing,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: not only in demonstrating the horrors that have taken place
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: in countries around the world, but true is a powerful
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: thing in helping to develop an appropriate reconciliation for the future.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: So we've got to establish truth and facts here, I
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: think if we're going to help people in the way
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: that we should.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Brian, the real truths and facts will be established when
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: this government goes and the I mean again, as I said,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: perhaps you haven't got the time to go into the day,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: and I'm not an expert to tell you all about
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: the various alternatives that perhaps be out there. That the
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: truth will be established when a decent government, I'm just
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: using that description of any other government than this government
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: that we have at the moment, comes and accepts something's
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: gone wrong, and they sit down and they look at
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: the records and they examine everything. And by the way,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: the most significant opponent or person regarded as the most
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: significant leader of the opposing movements, who is the son
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: of the late Shah Cram Prince Veszar par Lavi He
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: always says, Look if, when, if the regime goes, and
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: the first thing that should happen is that the people
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: will be given the opportunity to decide what sort of
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: governance they want. He says, I mean, I'm not a
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: supporter of emer anything. I'm not a member of any
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: party or any faction or anything like that. But he
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: says that he himself certainly does not have any leadership
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: ambitions apart from leading an interim government, interim administration during
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: which a referendum will take place. They will create a
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the English term for that, be
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: a Parliament of the founding members or something like this,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: you know, where obviously prominent individuals will be brought together
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: to well, you know, to form some sort of an
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: interim government to carry on with the daily business of
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: the country. I suppose, presumably using some of the existing systems,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: et cetera. But the important thing is Brian again, just
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: to not not to go on a lot, not to
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: go on about this for too long. People will decide
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: this is what the wish of the opponents of the
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: regime or the people should decide what regime they want,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: what type of mechanism, what type of governance they want
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: to be under, whether it's monarchy, that it's republic, you
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: can find they let them choose whatever they want, but
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: let them choose rather than let somebody impose it upon them.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: And that will hopefully also lead to establishing the facts
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: of all sorts. I love about the past, and about
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: the recent past, and perhaps the the past of the
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: previous governance, you know, in the old place.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: I couldn't disagree with what you've just said, because what
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: you've said should apply quite happily in any country, in
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: any Nationian state, and I would certainly say that I
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: would hope that would certainly apply to to Iran. The
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: caveat from me is that in establishing a new government
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: system of government, the Iranian people have got to be
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: very very discerning in who comes together around them to
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: help form that government. And I say that because I'm
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: speaking from a country where the manipulation of what is
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: supposed to be a democracy is so it's so obvious,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: and it is so sophisticated that these techniques represent a
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: threat not only to Western countries but any country in
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: which the West can get a foothold. And I sit here,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: as a man born in this country, and I am
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: looking at a country which is unrecognizable. The change is
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: unrecognizable over my lifetime. And we've got a British government
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: which declared in twenty ten in its document, a Cabinet
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Office document called mind Space, that it had the ability
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: to change the way people in UK thought and behaved
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: and they would not know this had been done to them.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: That was the policy, the sophistication of the applied political psychology,
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: the Behavioral Insights Team unleashed on people in UK. And
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: there is no question that those techniques are being used
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: by organizations like the British Foreign Commonwealth Development Office, which
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: is intimately interfacing with countries overseas and trouble spots. So
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: for Iranians to achieve the goal that they want to
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: and I'm taking that at face value as a laudable
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: aim in my opinion, they've really got to understand what
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: the deep state is up to in the West, because
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: my fear is an overthrow of the existing regime in Iran,
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: which will be seen as a wonderful thing and there
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: will be a period of euphoria, will be followed by
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: a liberalist attack on Iranian society, which the Iranians will
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: not be equipped to deal with because they don't have
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: the respect. What you said to me, The Iranians know,
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: but we've seen the people in this country don't even
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: know what's being done to them. And I think if
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: these techniques are unleashed in the creation of a new
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: government structure in Iran, the Iranian people are ultimately going
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: to be suffering in a new way. And I think
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: that would be a terrible shame.
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: If you aren't me to respond to that, Brian, I'd
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: say that the Iranian people are very discerning. In fact,
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: to be honest, they always have been. Even during the Shah,
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: the Iranians were most of the Uranians, especially like the
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: students of universities. Universities. I mean, that's the normal, isn't it.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Everywhere we're very political. You know, there would be a
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: very they would be very astute. They'll be very aware
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: of pretty much everything. Okay, Yeah, I know about the
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: I've learned a lot about all these kind of things
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: that you're talking about through the UK columns certainly, and
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: other sources that I followed. But at the end of
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: the day, you know, I mean, the liberalist attack on
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: the Iranian society well, I think they'll be able to
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: cope with that, you know, I think they'll be able
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: to deal with that. Bear in mind one thing, Brian,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: that the Islamists everywhere, to be honest, Islamists, we are
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: no exception, have very little care for culture and the
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: history of their country or their national identity. And so
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: the Iranian identity has been deliberately eroded, not successfully, because
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Iranians are extremely resilient when it comes to their culture.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: They are very nationalistic, very very nationalistic. The Islamists, the
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Islamic Republic, has tried to change that. I don't think
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: they've succeeded at all. And it is so so ironic, Bryan,
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: to see that in the same universities that at the
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: time of the shah uh and in fact, recently, by
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: the way, if you follow the news, the protests have
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: moved from the streets into the university campuses. And in
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: those days it was the university students who were shouting
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: death to the king, and now it's the same university,
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: well not the same universitisans, but university students of this
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: age are calling for him to come back, you know,
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: and which is very ironic. I know, it's it's it's
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: it's it's a little bit of a there is you
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: know that that what they're saying is they want a
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: change of this particular regime. And as I said, again,
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: just to emphasize the cultural thing iring, the current regime,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: I'm afraid, does not allow doesn't have room for culture.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: All it cares about is its ideology. Iranians want a
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: system which is not based on ideology but based on okay, liberal,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Western influenced ideas, sure, but it's very strongly rooted in
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: their own culture. So I think I hope, this is
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: my hope, that they will be able to discern anything
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: nefarious that may come towards them and deal with it.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty confident that Iranians will be able to deal
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: with whatever is thrown at them after a change. That's
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: my hope.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: We've ventured on a good point. Because we're both smiling.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: This has got to be a good place. We've talked
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: really serious subject, but we've got to a point where
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: maybe we can see some light at the end of
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: the tunnel. And I couldn't couldn't resist just by an
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: by saying, well, well, of course, if Iranians are to
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: be in this position, where they are going to be
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: able to see and discern for themselves. It's going to
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: be beholden on Iranians living in UK and experiencing what
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: is happening here in UK and the West. So you
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: are going to be the eyes and ears and in some.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: Ways the.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: People providing guidance of what Iran needs to be careful
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: of for the future, because there are so many lessons
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: to be learned from the demise of the West and
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: Western culture. But perhaps we have to leave that for
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: another time.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: I think again, I just say something very briefly with
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: that to God. I think Iranians are also aware of that,
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: and some Iranians abroad actually do present programs of the
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: kind of similar to the kind of things that UK
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: column does, you know, talking about the deep state and
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: stuff like that, but not from the point of view
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: of the Islamic government who's always basically sees every everything
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: against them, the whole world basically against them, and them
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: being against the whole world. If you dissociate yourself from
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: that that ideology, then I think you'll have a much
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: more You'll be more likely to be able to accept
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: some of the issues that sure Iranians will encounter in
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: their new system of governance. But let's hope, you know,
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: let's hope that will be obvious enough, and let's hope
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: Iranians will through their nationalism. I mean, this is this
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: is an ugly word in the West Brian you know, nationalists.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: If you talk about nationalism and everybody talks about you
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: know people, you know, which is I'm very saddened about that.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: You know, I think nationalism good in a sense that
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: it talks about the better. If you're a nationalist in
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: your on, you want the best of your nation. That's
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: all it means.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: For an Iranian being in a well, that's what that's
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: what it should mean, of course, and I completely agree
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: with you because the nations. I've said this on many
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: occasions that twenty one years in the Navy and traveling
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: to see countries around the world, and going from the
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: earliest days when people were old enough within the Navy
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: to have traveled to places, you know, after the war,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: and countries had their own identity, and therefore they experienced
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: different culture and food, and they brought items back from
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: those foreign lands to give their family, and the items
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: they chose, of course, were different. And now we are
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: faced with the fact that the nation state is branded
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: as being something wrong and extreme. In fact, it should
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: just represent the culture. What a shame if the culture
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: of people and nations disappears throughout the.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: World, that would be terrible, absolutely absolutely, and I'm seeing that.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: As you said again, just this is a completely different discussion.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: It's more of a kind of a UK column regular
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: sort of discussion that I'm feeling sorry sometimes for, especially
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: the English, you know. I mean, you talk to a
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Scotsman or you talk to a Welsh person, they have
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: no problem in expressing their love for their particular nation.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: You know. Somehow when it comes to England, you know,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: if you express some interest in English things, you become
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: a far right extremist, you know, I mean why why?
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: You know the answer why?
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: It's very simple, because because a geology has been attacking
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: us from the outside.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, please.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: Do send through some other information because you've mentioned some
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: other links, and if you be kind enough to email
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: me your video clip, that would be excellent. And really
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: we've done it, haven't we, Because we've opened a dialogue
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: on this. I'm going to try and and do recording,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: probably going to be a lady later sorry, later this
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: week we're nearly at the end of the week before
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: the weekend anyway, and then I've got some other Iranians,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: as I've indicated, who contacted me. Some of them speak
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: good English. I'm not so good, so I've got to
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: try and navigate through that. But at least we've now
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: started with actually hearing, being able to communicate with and
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: hear what the Iranians have got say about what they
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: see unfolding in Iran. And I think that's important. So
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: thank you again, very much
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to me.