Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 287. Individual Giving: How (and Why!) to Build a Mid-Level Donor Program - Clay Buck

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287. Individual Giving: How (and Why!) to Build a Mid-Level Donor Program - Clay Buck · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Today's episode is sponsored by Feathr. Feathr provides digital marketing tools and strategies for nonprofits of all shapes and sizes, including the Humane Society of North Central Florida. Stick around for the break to hear how feather power their $300 digital ad campaign that raised nearly$6,000 In just one day.
• 0:19
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm John.
• 0:20
  Becky Endicott: And I'm Becky.
• 0:21
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the We Are For Good Podcast.
• 0:24
  Becky Endicott: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:33
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:42
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:52
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Hey, Becky, what's happening?
• 0:57
  Becky Endicott: I'll tell you what, John, they're just some certain truths in this world.
• 0:58
  Becky Endicott: And one of them is when Lynne Wester tells you you need to meet a rockstar, you put them at the top of your priority list.
• 1:05
  Becky Endicott: So, community buckle up because you're about to meet Clay Buck today. And Clay Buck is one of the great treasures of our sector. He is in the donor relations space he is in the fundraising space, he is in the balance and mental health space in the leadership space. And today we're going to be talking about growing your small to mid level Donor Program. But I gotta introduce you to this good human. Clay is the founder and principal of TCB fundraising.
• 1:38
  Becky Endicott: He's a 30 year fundraising veteran. And the thing is, is he's worked at the top, you know, Chief Development Officer all the way down to his first job was in grant writing, and he loves the power of words, and of data. And he has really focused his consultancy on building individual giving at all levels.
• 1:57
  Becky Endicott: And we love that because we very much believe in flipping the donor pyramid and watching the pyramid turn into a funnel as that bottom portion, powers all the way down into a massive movement. And we just read something I have to lift about you clay that I love is that not only do you have your CFRE credentials, but you also completed the certificate and philanthropic psychology with distinction. So we may have to touch on that because I got to know what that is. And you live in Las Vegas, where you are owned by to poorly trained but fundamentally good retrievers and I love that about. So thank you for what you do to pour into education into the sector. Clay is also a professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, on the faculty there and he is just a purist in this sense, and he has energy and new ideas.
• 2:50
  Becky Endicott: We're so excited. You're here clay, but coming to the we're for good house.
• 2:55
  Clay Buck: I am so excited to be here. And that was a that was a lot like hearing yourself back you're like wow, I you know, we're just gonna dismiss imposter syndrome and you know, feeling a little inadequate today and just listen to you for
• 3:11
  Becky Endicott: that that impostor syndrome and do not get it back out. So we I want everybody to get to know you. I want them to know your heart, your story, like take us back.
• 3:23
  Becky Endicott: Tell us about growing up and what led you into this work.
• 3:27
  Clay Buck: Um, I mean, I think I think the key part of the story there is I meant to be an actor and meant to be an academic. I did my undergraduate degree in theater at the University of Georgia. And then I went and did a Masters of Fine Arts and performance at Michigan State.
• 3:41
  Clay Buck: And then, you know, was was going to take on the world and move to Chicago and had 500 bucks in my pocket and a beautiful pickup truck, and was kind of on my way out west. When I sort of realized in, you know, the mid 90s 500 bucks in your pocket and a beautiful pickup truck is not going to make it all the way out. So I sort of paused and got a day job got a temp job. And the first temp job I was assigned to was as a grant writer, and on my first day the chief development officer walked in and she's like, um, do you have any writing skills at all?
• 4:17
  Clay Buck: And you know, all of 26 years old? I'm like, Oh, of course, I've just completed a master's degree even Farmar. And you know, goes great. We need this grant written. It's gotta be done this afternoon. I had no idea what that meant. No idea what it was doing, wrote it.
• 4:33
  Clay Buck: Came back to me the next day and said that was really good and really well done. And I was able to submit that grant without too much editing. The person that you're here to attempt for faxed in there to remember fax machines faxed in their two week notice. Would you like a job? So yeah, they offered me a job and I spent the first three and a half years of my career as a grant writer and special events.
• 4:56
  Clay Buck: Director so I did all fill the gap, the grants in the big, huge gala for an institute graduate school and Research Center in child early childhood development. And that was the start of the career. And from there, I sort of went, Oh, this is good. And I can do this. And they always tell you in acting school, if you find something you love more and can do better go do it. And so I did
• 5:19
  Jonathan McCoy: an incredible story. I mean, I just feel like you're on this trip across the country, finding your passion along the way. And you know, now reflecting back, I know, you work with organizations of all shapes and sizes, and a lot of consultants and I put that word kind of in quotes, you know, a camp out in this higher end of like, major gifts. And I think that's great. Obviously, we all know the power of major gifts, but something that sticks out to me. And one reason we just love you is that you've put so much dedicated work around this, like mid level group about people that are just more your everyday givers the power of unlocking that, you know, for us around here, it's the bedrock of our company, like we believe in flipping the donor pyramid. And you've been kind of preaching that for a really long time as well. And so I just want to give you space like today, we want to talk about the power of mid level. And even that moniker kind of gives my skin crawl because it's not just a you know, it's it's such an important thing, but set the tone for us, why is this space matter? So much one of these people matter so much to our programs, and how, you know, just kind of kick us into that part of this conversation?
• 6:19
  Clay Buck: Sure. In John, let me preface that with one of the things that is making me grieve lately is I realize how fortunate my starting experiences were. And I just stumbled into having a first boss who was a mentor and a leader, and understood that she had brought somebody in who did not know the sector and didn't know the space, and invested that time in, hey, I'm going to help this person become a development professional. And I'm hearing so so so many of our colleagues, both, you know, early in their career, and later in their career that didn't have that experience, and didn't have that, you know, coming out of the shop with, you know, a true development professional that really taught the value of the whole of what we do in fundraising. And, you know, so I've sort of made it a personal mission, I guess, if I can push that forward, right. And if I can help, or at least bring my experience forward to those to sort of bring that same experience forward, because we have such a myth in the sector.
• 7:27
  Clay Buck: That you know, the best fundraising, the only fundraising is face to face fundraising that results in major gifts, that donor centrism is about donor dominance and giving donors everything that they need or want. And you know that that fundraising is about money and power dynamics. And unfortunately, that is absolutely true. And that is all true. And the space does lend itself to that. Which makes me grieve a great deal. Because, right, I truly, truly believe that what we do as fundraisers what we do as nonprofit people, is we we put out a solution to the world, there's a problem, somebody saw a solution, and they're putting out that solution. And in fundraising, in in nonprofit communications, what we get to do is invite everybody into being a part of that solution, which to me means the invitation is open to everybody, regardless of socio economic background, regardless of financial capability, regardless of what it is that person who believes in the mission brings to the table that we need to build our systems.
• 8:35
  Clay Buck: And we need to build our philosophies in such a way that we are inviting everyone regardless of where they stand into that philanthropic promise and into being a part of these solutions. So to me when we talk, and I'm with you, low, mid level, these are all internal terms that mean something to us, and they're terrible. And we really need new vocabulary. But we know what they mean. So for now, let's keep using them, right? But looking at it, let's get let's find better words there. But But to me in individual give individual giving, especially at the low end, mid range is community building, it is inviting everybody that's a part of this into being a part of it. And the more we can adjust our focus on our philosophy into that, the more I believe we strengthen the sector.
• 9:28
  Becky Endicott: Wow, okay, you know, I got to respond to the philosophical nature of this because I really think what you're saying has very deep resonance. And, you know, I don't, I don't want to be Pollyanna in every situation, but I do feel there's tremendous hope and promise in shifting that perception in this moment right now, because I agree with you the grief is real, because we're living it and this is the current state We have, how our structures have been built, and we are having to deliver within them. However, we are watching this moment, uh, you know, post great resignation, or maybe we're still in the great resignation. Oh, absolutely. And I'm telling every person who's listening right now, you have a part to play in, in shifting that perception, every time that you kind of raise your hand to fight back against those power dynamics, every time you fight, for better pay, for leave for innovation, for improved tech, for mental health balance, whatever it is, you are creating a more equitable sector that is not looked at as power and money. It's looked at as social impact and change. And it's solving problems. And it's gathering that community. And I believe, and I promise I'll get off my soapbox in two seconds here. I believe the promise of that lies in the base of not only the funders, but I also believe it belongs to the courageous staff members and leaders who are willing to set a new tone for the way that we do this work, the way that we move through it, the way that we talk about it, and the way that we deliver impact. And so if you're someone who's here for that, one, you're in the right space, and we're going to keep delivering that and and powering and equipping you please go follow clay to because clearly, he's drinking this Kool Aid and has some structures too. So thank you for even inviting that combo in.
• 12:12
  Jonathan McCoy: Well, and I feel like I have to say this in response to that, that Becky, sorry, didn't mean to make this, you know, a personal therapy session. But
• 12:22
  Becky Endicott: psychology certification is really
• 12:26
  Clay Buck: you know, I grieve those that didn't have the same mentorship experience that I did, and will offer and say, I'm going to speak for the both of you now that I've known you, right, you know, all 15 minutes, or whatever it is, right? If you if you are missing that in your life, reach out to one of us, we will mentor you, there are people out there that will step into that space with you, I promise they are out there.
• 12:51
  Clay Buck: Secondly, I grieve the times in my career where I didn't stand in my own leadership, regardless of my position. And I want to fully acknowledge that there are a lot of people listening to us that are saying, Yeah, this is a great idea. But you know, I'm an associate, I'm a coordinator level, or, you know, I have no authority in my organization. I want to put my arms around you until you I understand that, and I hear you and support you in that and know how tough it is.
• 13:18
  Clay Buck: And the best thing that we can do is step into what leadership we can and advocate for individual donors at all level and advocate for some times, we've got to be really split focus in our work. Yes, we have a revenue goal. Yes, we have a budget goal. Yes, we have ROI to measure, and we have 1000s of donors who care. And I understand that you're going to sit there and say, you know, we can't afford to, you know, investing in this is, is too high and the ROI, isn't there?
• 13:51
  Clay Buck: Yes, sometimes that's true. And it's the right thing to do.
• 13:56
  Clay Buck: Right. It's the right thing to do to make our systems and our and our, and our development and our fundraising processes open and available to everybody who wants to give regardless of level. So let's let's stop, let's stop the day and age of oh, we only acknowledged gifts over $1,000 or over $250?
• 14:12
  Clay Buck: Because it's too expensive. Get over it.
• 14:17
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah. I mean, when you say that out loud, dynamic, you just cringe, you know, you just say that, like, we're not going to acknowledge it. If it's not at this level, like I mean, it's, it's got to be a mix of things like you have, you can't have one KPI to, you know, put against your entire plan, you know?
• 14:35
  Becky Endicott: Yes, we don't want one KPI to rule them all.
• 14:39
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, and obviously that KPI would be money, you know, as what people are going to default to. And this is a bigger conversation, and is of the moment of the organizations that are going to be lightyears ahead. I mean lightyears ahead, especially as the generations are coming up.
• 14:53
  Jonathan McCoy: And so let's talk about building this program, a program that sees people and that, you know, can grow and cultivate donors who maybe are not hitting those, you know, metrics or measures in a wealth screening or something like that. How do you build a true mid level giving program that's really active today? What does that look like? Clay?
• 15:12
  Clay Buck: Yeah, no, it's a great question. Right? And I think it has to go How do you build a full individual giving program first and the first is you know, tell really, really great stories and make sure you have every opportunity for people to come in the second is, and First John not to be the data guy. But what what do you mean by mid level because this is what I hear all the time. We need a mid level Giving Program.
• 15:34
  Clay Buck: Okay, well, what is mid level?
• 15:34
  Clay Buck: Right? For some shops mid level is 1000 for son shops mid level is 100. Right? So this is this is why I became a data person is because we do actually have to take some data and kind of identify that where is your mid level? And what does that mean, that's number one. In C, I come from a lot of membership based programs. So I did a lot of work in the performing arts, and in performing and visual arts and membership based, it's super easy, right? I can build a membership, a mid level program, because I can give you a mug or a tote bag or you know, some sort of benefit that makes sense for you to go, oh, 250 I get you know, dinner with the CEO great I can you know, right. So it becomes an exchange proposition.
• 16:19
  Clay Buck: Okay. If the if the membership thing, whatever it is, is valuable enough. The key to the mid level program is a no where to be mid level is and what that looks like, and then B, what is it doing for the donor? Why would I, as a donor come up to that level, which gets to how we talk about our mission, how we tell our stories, and how we frame that case for support.
• 16:45
  Clay Buck: Right? So we can talk about when you make a gift, you're I'm just going to pick on Animal Rescue for a bit just because it's kind of quick and easy. And I was working on it before I joined you today. Right? You know, you know, for $100, we'll take care of, you know, one dog for seven days, give them all their, you know, food and bedding and you know, until they get adopted.
• 17:05
  Clay Buck: Great. Okay, so I can understand that. Can we start to frame any increase in any upgrade to people in such a way that we understand what the what what is my gift going to do? What is that next level thing that's going to happen that makes me want to upgrade. Because when donors are faced when when donors are making a decision, we know this and this is where that philanthropic psychology comes in. We know this giving is an irrational act, it is emotional, it is driven by dopamine, I see a problem, I've been asked to help solve it, I'm going to solve it right. And then in a split second, we're assigning an affordability to it. So there is a little bit of our logical brain that kicks in and goes, I believe in this it's touching my heart at $50. So how can we then frame our case for support and frame our stories in such a way that we're also expressing the value of it, and what that gift will do? Right? So that becoming a higher level donor, also speaks to my emotions, and also speaks to my values and identity as a person that I want to assign more value to it, which this is what I mean about being split brain because we're both transformational and transactional, right? And we're balancing both of those things in that value.
• 18:31
  Clay Buck: If we're and, you know, if we're talking about upgrading, right, if we're talking about upgrading, quote, unquote, lower end donors into the upper range, I've been giving to, you know, XYZ organization for two years at this level. I feel good about where I am, obviously, I've renewed right, I'm a donor, I'm with you. What's the reason now you need more money from me?
• 18:55
  Clay Buck: It's not just about positioning the need, donors understand that we need money, right? They understand the nonprofit position. But why do I want to and white? Why do you need more money from me now? Why me? Why this? Why now? Those are the three value questions that donors are asking themselves whenever an ask is put in front of them. Our job then is to convey what that mid level what that increase or what that level of gift is going to do that the other didn't write. And I believe I actually believe this is true about major gifts as as well. Everything that I know about major gifts, and I've done them I've sat across the table, I've made a huge get made the huge ask and I've done done the whole thing. Everything that I know and believe and have experienced with major gifts is by the time you're at the the point of the ask, it is not.
• 19:53
  Clay Buck: You're not asking if they will.
• 19:53
  Clay Buck: By the time you're at the ask it's what's what's the amount it's now a negotiation. Because an Ask done well and ask done right. The donor has already made the decision long before you've ever said Becky, would you consider making a gift of 18 squidgy million dollars and we'll put your name on
• 20:16
  Jonathan McCoy: it right. Sounds reasonable. No thanks.
• 20:18
  Clay Buck: The same thing is absolutely true at the low in the mid range by the time that you're on your they're they're opening your envelope and filling out the form or they're on your giving. They've already decided they're going to give now it's just a matter of what and how much right you've done your work. It's what is that gift going to do? I'm a huge believer in direct response and in digital on using impact statements on our gift forms. So that making give examples of what a gift could do not will do. Because if we say we'll do, then that's restricted. And if you're doing restricted, great when it was wonderful, right, but, you know,
• 20:54
  Jonathan McCoy: we had that letter, the wood and the could I mean, the power of the credit.
• 20:57
  Jonathan McCoy: That is that is a huge impact, but make those statements. And there's where the hard work for us comes in.
• 21:05
  Jonathan McCoy: Because if you don't know them, find them.
• 21:09
  Jonathan McCoy: What do you think some hallmarks of a really great impact statement?
• 21:13
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, give us an example.
• 21:14
  Clay Buck: I think the hallmarks are things that are absolutely tangible that we can understand.
• 21:17
  Clay Buck: Here's another area where apparently I'm alone in this or I am among the minority, I have never in 30 years, had an individual donor asked me about operational costs, I've had plenty of Grand Tours, I've had plenty of foundation directors had plenty of capital can be keeping gifts. But in 30 years, I've never had a an individual donor asked me how much of their gift was going to operations and how much was actually going to services. I believe, and have been testing this and doing this and seeing it's actually successful. Let's talk about the program work. Because in many instances without people, and without space, we can't do our work. So let's talk about a $250 gift empowers our youth specialist to develop new curriculum to bring to kids who are experiencing poverty, right?
• 22:15
  Clay Buck: Whatever it may be, let's let's let's talk about building impact statements that aren't just a thing you can buy, but also a positioning with the people that are doing the work and doing the mission. Because that's the value proposition that we're talking about fundraising. It's not donor above everything. Its donor, partnering with the mission, together working with a beneficiary, it's this vortex, this triad of those three things working together, let's talk about impact statements that say, Hey, donor, when you make a gift at $500, what you're doing is you're out there with every single one of our medical professionals, who is taking great dental care into inner city schools, or whatever it may be. So that it can it's not just a thing, but it's also with the people, let's tell impact stories, not just of what you've done for beneficiaries, but what you've done for our program staff and what you've done for, you know, what, whatever it may be, if you've done a fair amount of work lately with mental health organizations, who are always concerned about telling their beneficiary stories, and rightly so there's privacy there that we don't want to get into.
• 23:30
  Clay Buck: But then they start telling the stories of the therapists, right, and getting the therapists to tell their stories and the things that they experience in the donor
• 23:39
  Becky Endicott: family member, right. I mean, I've been in this as well, same thing, it is not just the patient, we have to be creative about where we get those stories, because it's never singular. I love this keep going.
• 23:51
  Clay Buck: It's absolutely never never singular, the donor is concerned about the beneficiary.
• 23:55
  Clay Buck: And the problem. That's ultimately what brought them there to give. But let's bring them into the whole thing. So what makes a good impact statement, anything that I can put some sort of tangible experience to, whether it's a specific item, or whether it's a hey, look, I want you to meet Joe, right. And Joe is one of our phenomenal youth, people who every day, these kids come in after school, and he makes their snack, and Joe's got an expertise in, you know, nutrition and blah. And everyday, he's coming up with clever ideas. And when you make a gift of $500, you're giving Joe the power to give kids at the end of the day a nutritious snack that fuels their brain and gets them ready for homework, you know,
• 24:41
  Becky Endicott: like I want to give to this organization. I mean, right? I just think what you're saying has such resonance. And it's a mindset shift. And I have to just like lift up something that you said that I think is really powerful that I don't want people to miss because I got very triggered by something I saw on LinkedIn this week, that somebody had said, I feel like people keep forgetting that donors are the hero and that donors should be the hero and all these stories. And I'm here to tell you guys that that was really some old thinking.
• 25:14
  Becky Endicott: And I'm not saying that that donors aren't an important part of this, but that triad that you explained, we don't want to set up stories that simply make the donor the hero I mean, that is some Savior ism at another level because we all have them more seamless Slee, when everybody's winning, when the staff are winning when the program officers are winning when the beneficiaries are winning. And so, I want to move our minds and our hearts a little bit on how we storytel. And what clay just said, as an example, that was so human, it was so ethically told, and it was something that was just raw and true. And so, I love this conversation, I can't believe this is coming from a mid level conversation, I'm really geeked out about it. But you know, I want to get, we've been so philosophical. And I want to get into the tactic a little bit, and I want to get your counsel on this. And I want you to kind of tell us, like, what would be like the key steps and hallmarks of a great program like this, because we're really talking about, to your point, a transformational sort of opportunity here, and transformational gifts and opportunities, friends, are not just found at the major gift level at all. In fact, I think the first gift somebody could come in could be transformational, and how you see that gift and how you nurture it along. So talk to us a little bit about those key steps, and what people can look for and start to build.
• 26:47
  Clay Buck: So yes, philosophical and theoretical, which is why I'm grounded in data, because I think the data has to inform and start everything, right. And the number one thing, the number one thing and do this, please, every year when you do budgeting is audit your data. How many donors do I have at this given level?
• 27:05
  Clay Buck: How many addresses do I have?
• 27:05
  Clay Buck: How many email addresses? I mean, one organization I was working with, I was on staff had decided to go full digital, I'm a direct mail guy, right, I get it, but I understand the power of digital and I'm into it, we did a database audit and 87% of our records didn't have an email address. Okay, well, don't go out and buy the new, right fancy schmancy digital platform, when the vast majority of your records don't have email addresses. And that's my point about crunching your data before you do anything. Because you can say, I need a strong mid level giving program and then you dig into your data and you find out that 60% of your donors are giving regularly at $500 and have been for 10 years, guess what, you've got a strong myth of welcoming program. So that might not be your number one priority. So know, know where you are, first, audit the data, find out what you know, run your metrics to what are your goals?
• 28:00
  Clay Buck: Right, I need a mid level given quarter. Why? What's your goal here? Is it more recurring gifts? Is it to increase revenue? Is it to engage donors more deeply? What is the very specific goal and articulate that? Don't just need a mid level giving program? Because everybody says I need a mid level giving program. So why do you need it and what are your goals are let us stop, please, assigning value to donors because of what they could do.
• 28:33
  Clay Buck: And value them for what they are doing. Yes, 100%, the number one indicator of likelihood to make a major gift or to make a planned gift is recurrence of giving this has been proved over and over again, I used to do statistical modeling and interpreting models and every single time, the number one indicator of likelihood to make a plan gift was frequency, not amount, okay? But maybe that's your secondary goal, not your primary goal, right. Because if you're looking at developing a mid level giving program because you ultimately need more major gifts, then you're going to enter into it transactionally your donors are going to feel it and they're going to know it enter into a mid level giving program because you believe there is power in your mission, and you need more money to do it. And you want to invite people into that level, right?
• 29:21
  Clay Buck: And then third, what's the so first was know where you are.
• 29:24
  Clay Buck: Second is know where you're going set your goals, and your KPIs. And then third plan, the end result. Now, this isn't it's another known thing we can bring data to it. It is far cheaper to invest in stewardship and retention than it is to invest in acquisition by a significant margin. So if your whatever program you're building, decide before you start, how you will take that jump turnip donor on that journey. What's the first thing you what's the first acknowledgment? What's What does it look like in month one and month two, and month three? When are you planning on sending impact statements that have no assets to them? What does that whole donor journey look like over the entire year? As you begin right to really foster that relationship? If you're going to build a mid level program, and not think about what that ongoing relationship looks like, then you're just building another acquisition program that you're just going to keep turning. Sorry to be blunt,
• 30:23
  Becky Endicott: and it's gonna create more work for you honestly, not working smarter, you know, and then we're still in the grind. I'm going back to this old way of the way we feel Are structures and, and I just I love what you're saying because it really is going to it is something that's going to help us move into a place that our donors want us to be. They want us to not just keep dropping, you know, a whole bunch of direct mail or a whole bunch of email. There's like intentionality with the time that we take to connect with them. We see them, we know them, we understand their behavior.
• 30:58
  Becky Endicott: And we're just trying to understand a little bit more and drop another little, I'm like putting my hand out like, is this something that you want? Or maybe this something over here?
• 31:07
  Becky Endicott: We're testing the waters, like as a marketer? It makes me think you're just always testing like what is really resonating with someone and that is truly what a strong mid level program will do. I'm eating this up.
• 31:20
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, friends, this episode is presented by virtuous and they just happened to be one of our favorite companies. Let me tell you why.
• 31:25
  Jonathan McCoy: You know, we believe everyone matters. And we've witnessed the greatest philanthropic movements happen when you see and activate donors at every level. And here's the thing, virtuous created a fundraising platform to help you do just that. It's much more than a nonprofit CRM.
• 31:41
  Jonathan McCoy: Virtuous is committed to helping charities reimagine generosity through responsive fundraising, which is simply putting the donor at the center of fundraising, growing giving through personalized donor journeys, and by helping you respond to the needs of every individual. We love it because this approach builds trust and loyalty through personalized engagement. Some, like virtuous may be a fit for your organization. Learn more today and virtuous.org or follow the link in our show notes. Taking a quick pause from today's episode to thank our sponsor, slingshot group, our friends over at slingshot group partner with nonprofits to recruit and hire great leaders build remarkable teams and unleash your missions potential. You know, we talk often about how much your organization's culture matters, especially today. And not just being a place that attracts talent, but also becomes a magnet to connecting donors to your mission. Slingshot group is that organization we trust to help you do just that. It's so much more than a staffing and executive search firm. Slingshot group goes deep and gets to know your culture so they can help you find the leaders and staff who will take your mission to the next level. Sound like slingshot group might be a fit for your organization. Learn more today at slingshot group.org or follow the link in our show notes.
• 32:56
  Clay Buck: So this is this is where this is where the philanthropic side of psychology truly comes into what you're saying. So this is research from Dr. Jen Chang and Adrian Sargeant at the Institute for Sustainable philanthropy. The program that I did the certificate program is one of the most amazing things I've ever done. And there is absolutely no way to incorporate everything. It's just so rich with details, but but one of the things in donor psychology and all human psychology is the level of identity that we associate with whatever we do, right? There are donors who you know, whose identity isn't tied up in who we are, and what our mission is they made a gift for whatever reason, and that's fine, right? But there are donors who really truly believe in our work. And the best example of this, can I name names? Is it okay to name names, you name names. The best example of this that I have is I kept hearing about how good Charity Water was at donor relations, right. So I you know, sign up for the monthly recurring gift at the lowest level just to see you know, what it was about, because I wanted to experience it and you know, maybe steal some ideas. The end of six months, I considered myself a water advocate, and started inviting others to join through my page, because they did such a phenomenally good job of explaining to me what my gift did what the problems were right and continue to reinforce to me this identity and that's the hallmark of of philanthropic psychology, because in all of our communications, if I can reinforce back to you, John, you are a good and thoughtful kind of a caring person. You are the kind of person who believes that every animal in Southern Nevada should have a permanent home.
• 34:38
  Clay Buck: Thank you for joining with us in that mission.
• 34:41
  Becky Endicott: John is texting me giving his identity and I am looking at my notes with you for March. And I literally have written in there giving as identities identity giving has always been identity, but it is lifting to the surface like never before. I feel like in this moment I look at my child who's a little environmentalist.
• 35:01
  Becky Endicott: I think I've shared the story before she doesn't want to wear a normal t shirt. She wants to wear a I love the Earth t shirt.
• 35:07
  Becky Endicott: You know she wants to wear her team sees her, you know one tree planted shirts like that is who she is and she wants people to know about it because she wants them to ask her about it because she has educated herself about things that she cares about in the environment. We may not get our, you know, big CEOs or mid level donors to wear shirts.
• 35:30
  Becky Endicott: Even though I want to because as a marketer, I just think that's like embracing a billboard walking around. But I do think that that expresses itself in so many different ways. The way you show up on your Facebook, you see car tags, the way that people fundraise. And this is a fascinating conversation,
• 35:49
  Clay Buck: which let's fundraise to that identity. So, donor as hero, okay, yes, I agree with you, donor is hero went way too far, and like many things was misinterpreted. But we are all the heroes of our own story. No matter how much imposter syndrome, we feel, we also have all the good things that we actually think about ourselves, we're just not as good as articulating them. This is true of every human. So as fundraisers, can we help reinforce those good ideas, so that every interaction a donor has with us? They're feeling?
• 36:30
  Clay Buck: Oh, I support this. So yes, I am a good person, I am a kind person. And I feel good about this gift, because I keep seeing myself reflected back in all of these communication. So donor is hero? Um, yeah, a little bit in their story. In the story of the overall organization. Yes, the triad, right. But in their story a little bit, we're saying, you're pretty special. You're pretty wonderful for doing this.
• 37:00
  Clay Buck: Not above the beneficiary, not above us, not in a power dynamic. But in this identity story of you are good. You are kind, you are appreciated. And I don't think that that creates power dynamic. I think that's honest, human vulnerable communication. And, and that's where I go to Brene. Brown, we need to bring in our vulnerability into fundraising, especially in the low in the mid level, and be human about what we talk about, and not institutional. Right.
• 37:39
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, Clay, something you said there that just has given me pause this giving his identity like excites me, because I see it in the upcoming generation. I see it of this moment. And it's a hugely untapped idea for our nonprofits to really embrace. But something you said about charity water, I want to lift because we've met so many people who give to the spring, and I've not personally a spring donor, I think that's what they call their program, right. But the people that talk about it are effusive about the experience of that they feel connected, they feel more informed, they fill in the loop, they feel like what they're doing matters, which means they have figured out a system to create believers. And you know, you came in the door, you wanted to test things, people could have 100 different reasons for that first gift, maybe they're given to a birthday party, or they're given to a memorial or something like that. The fact that you said they've turned me into an advocate tells me how our strategy has to be wired, like how were those touchpoints that you're pre planning, taking somebody along the journey for their own self discovery, you know, of what why this matters, why it matters to me why it aligns with my personal values, and like what a magical thing, and what you're in what you're doing at a small but scalable level, I think is just kind of everything. You know, I think this has got to be part of the bedrock of every program, why wouldn't you want that running on autopilot, every organization like It blows my mind that that wouldn't be a key strategy for everybody. So I love what you're saying I love the examples you're sharing here.
• 39:07
  Becky Endicott: And I just have to say, in addition to that beautiful thing that John said, Is it means we go back to the donor, the hero, there are ways to make the donor the hero without saying that, because I think that language alone. It to me it is again, we're back to singular philanthropy is community. And it's about building community. And you can make the donor feel good, as well as making the beneficiary feel good, as well as making the program officer feel good. So how we're using words matter.
• 39:41
  Becky Endicott: And I just think the genius of all of this conversation is that it it is all starting here in this bottom to mid level, we gotta get a new word for both of the lower to mid level. I just hate saying it because I'm like, That's me. I'm those people.
• 39:58
  Becky Endicott: Right? It starts with us.
• 40:03
  Clay Buck: I use this in one of my classes. The donor is hero, right? So think about a superhero movie and almost all of them and right that that closing sequence is, you know, the villain has been vanquished and there's been this huge battle and the cameras panning back showing, you know, the superheroes feeling all good about themselves and the love interests are kissing. And the city is in rubble and there are car wrecks over and there's fires and buildings, and you know the credits are rolling and you're like this is the end of this Right, the donor is hero is the one who stands in that rubble and starts cleaning up after the mess, right? That's how I think of it. It's the unsung hero. It's the, it's the one that's cleaning up the mess after the problem has been created. It's not donor as superhero, and it keeps creeping in to save the day. It's the hard day to day work. It's the switch. And that's why I say, if we're going to talk about impact statements and and and what money is go to let's talk about it. We need a clean, safe environment in order. One of the questions that you sent to me in the prep was, you know, a philanthropic moment. So can I tell a quick story? Yeah, tell I was at a friend's friend's house for dinner when I met another couple that we hadn't met before we get to chit chatting. And she's like, Oh, I volunteer in for a youth homeless shelter.
• 41:31
  Clay Buck: Like, oh, cool. Tell me about that. What do you do? It's because I go in once a week, and I make sandwiches, and we make sandwiches for the box lunches for the week that the kids can take to school or, you know, wherever, whatever. And because again, I had the most frustrating week last week, and I said, Why what happened? She goes, I was making sandwiches, and I knocked over a jar of mayonnaise, and it spilled all over the table. And I went, Okay, and she goes, so I went to clean it up. And I asked our volunteer coordinator where the paper towels were, and she said we didn't have any. And so the woman says, Okay, well, I need something to clean this up with.
• 42:09
  Clay Buck: What do I do? And the volunteer coordinator sort of sort of shrugged and went, I'm not real sure, because we don't have any paper towels. And it's not in the budget for us to get any until next week.
• 42:21
  Becky Endicott: Oh, my gosh. The
• 42:23
  Clay Buck: moment for me was sometimes fundraising is paper towels. Right? Yeah. Because man is right, sitting out on a counter. It's gonna like this is an unsanitary situation.
• 42:35
  Clay Buck: Sometimes fundraising is paper towels. Our kids need and deserve a safe, clean, hygienic environment. And when you make a gift, what you're doing is you're providing the supplies that let us create a healthy, hygienic, safe lunch for these kids. Right? Let's, let's talk about that with our low end mid level, right. And maybe that means they go onto Amazon and purchase paper towels off our wish list. And that's fine.
• 43:04
  Clay Buck: Right, but very engaged, and they're bringing something forward, because we're telling true stories about what has to happen here. We need a safe, quiet environment to treat the patients that we do, like, let's let's be open, let's be honest, and and tell what those true needs are. Because the difference between getting a good sandwich for lunch and not getting one can be $50. You know, and I think there's so much more that we can bring forward. The other side of this too, is there's such a divide between program and fundraising.
• 43:40
  Clay Buck: And there's such a philosophical idea that, you know, we're programs were the mission, you're just funding the mission.
• 43:47
  Clay Buck: Let's introduce our donors and our program staff. Let's, let's bring those two groups together, you want to do something really cool. Do rather than doing a home event and a fancy home, do an event in your building with your program staff, and let your donors come meet the team that is out there doing the work that is making the lunches that is delivering the services? That is right, let's let's rethink how we bring those communities together. Because then we're also as fundraisers uplifting our program team and our service teams, and making them feel like it's not donors up here providing it's all of us in this together surrounding that beneficiary, doing it for the beneficiary and pushing that mission forward.
• 44:31
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, it's vulnerable, it's authentic, it feels right. It feels three days. Yeah, this gets so many things in alignment. And that's what I love about this conversation, the way that you've given advice today gets all of our shops, in better alignment to do all those things. And it actually feels like a team sport, you know, and it feels like everybody has a really powerful part of that team being successful. And so I want to run back because man, your story was good, but I don't want to miss the chance to talk real quickly about how do you really execute and scale a program like this? I mean, we're entrepreneurially wired around here. So we love that tech can help do some of these things.
• 45:10
  Jonathan McCoy: What's your favorite advice or hack for take for sustaining and scaling a program like this overtime?
• 45:17
  Clay Buck: It really comes down to ensuring your systems are operational, we think linear in fundraising. Right ask thank report all due respect to those that tout that it is absolutely true. Think about the donor lifecycle, right. It's Linear, it's not linear. And if we start to bring a systems thinking approach to things, and what a system is, is the strict definition of a system is an interconnected interrelated, a group of parts that work together to perform a function.
• 45:49
  Clay Buck: And systems maintain balance through providing feedback. Same thing in fundraising, we have to have the whole system functioning because especially in mid level, right? Is it coming in online? And is it coming in by mail? If so, what does the acknowledgement process look like? How is that set up so that are not acknowledgement happens? Quickly and efficiently and warm and fuzzy and humanly?
• 46:12
  Clay Buck: Can we escape, you know what my favorite hack is? Lately, honestly, to be really super tactical Did you know you can turn your own handwriting into a font, there are websites where you fill out a form, and you fill out every letter in the alphabet, and you scan it in and submit it and it will create a font of your hand registering for this.
• 46:34
  Becky Endicott: This is your dream.
• 46:36
  Jonathan McCoy: I know. My wife will be like, I can't read the cards, you wrote me if you can get just
• 46:45
  Clay Buck: right. But let's start bringing in those kinds of things. If you can't get handwritten notes out, turn your your handwriting into a font and do it in mailmerge. It will, we're not here to fool donors, nobody's going to be fooled. But it will just be that little touch. That means a little bit more. Right? Change. This is what I mean by system thinking change your auto generated email to be John, thank you very much for your gift of $50, to acne charities, you're going to change it to John, you're amazing. We just got your gift.
• 47:20
  Clay Buck: It's here, we are so grateful.
• 47:20
  Clay Buck: We're going to put it to work right away. You can use this email as your receipt if you need to. But also in the next week or so you'll get a full thank you note from us. We just wanted to let you know quickly that it's been received. We appreciate you and we're off doing the thing that you challenged us to do. Build your systems to support that with what you can do the number one, the number one hack, the number one thing that I'm obsessing on lately, three to six months after the gift, send a donor survey. What Senator donors, ask donors, give, keep them simple, keep them straightforward. Give donors give donors the agency to be a part of their giving and explain why what their motivations are. And find out their communications preferences. Right? Yeah. Like there's a lot we can do. We tend to be so donors, we can't talk about, you know, let's have conversations with them. And give them opportunities to do that. So that we're actually listening as much as we are asking.
• 48:22
  Becky Endicott: And the opportunity is before you right now, if you're watching Gen Z giving, if you are watching what's coming with Gen alpha, you have such an opportunity.
• 48:33
  Becky Endicott: And I'm here to tell you right now, whether you're tuning in as a major gift officer as an ad, I am telling you, you need to put focus on your onboarding right now, your annual giving donors your warming sequence, your monthly giving donors the way new donors come in. Because if you can do that incredibly well, at the onset, you are going to build a massive legacy of donors who have grown up with you. And the potential for what we're seeing. I'm Charity Water is a perfect example. Starting modestly and then massively scaling because they're powered by the community. They're powered by community. They're powered by storytelling. They're powered by connectivity. And that to me is an exciting future for nonprofit.
• 49:27
  Clay Buck: You want to talk generational giving, you want to talk building a mid level giving program. If you can talk to your Gen X donors, everybody keeps forgetting Gen X in the generational giving discussion.
• 49:38
  Clay Buck: We talk about boomers, and we're talking about millennials. Gen X is over here going hey, I'm 10 to 15 years away from retirement. My kids are out of the house. I'm like taking more vacations and stuff I've been given to you for years I've been philanthropically active for a while now. Anybody coming after Gen X to increase to mid level?
• 50:03
  Clay Buck: I mean, I said earlier, right?
• 50:03
  Clay Buck: Like, let's honor them for what they do. But like you really want to talk about upgrading donors find your Jennex donors talk to you. That's
• 50:11
  Becky Endicott: because I'm Gen X and no one's asked me. Yes, I have not had one one of my organizations try to upgrade me.
• 50:18
  Becky Endicott: I just want to know as such a donor relations pure as someone who understands stewardship so well what advice do you have for people who are really trying to pour into stewardship of this mid level program? How do you start to make every donor feel like a major gift donor?
• 50:34
  Clay Buck: Make your gratitude genuine, and make their impact genuine. We can all spot fakeness a mile away. Here's where your leadership as a fundraiser has to come into play. Because your executive director, your CEO, your board, your marketing team, all due respect a marketing team, but they're going to want to brand it. And they're going to want to make it formal. And they're going to want to make it institutional, individual donors don't want an on a institutional experience they want to human experience, be human. Number two, stop chasing, after all the bright, shiny stuff, and focus on what you can do what you can do well and efficiently that will bring true human connection to your donors. And you know, what, if that is indeed a gala, or a special event, Grant, right? If that's what you can do and do well, and that's, that's what I want to champion because there's so much in our space.
• 51:38
  Clay Buck: Oh, stop doing that. Stop doing golf, stop doing? And yeah, okay, we can argue about all of that. But what can you do that is genuine, that is true, that is honest. And that is real, to bring donors along and do that and do it? Well. If you can't do it and do it. Well, don't do it yet. Right. And to me, it all ends and begins with data.
• 51:58
  Clay Buck: Because the number one thing when donors make a gift, they are doing two things. They are entrusting us with their money, and they are trusting us to do what we said we would do with the gift they make. And that is our number one responsibility in stewardship. As Lynn Wester says you cannot steward a donor you can only steward a gift, because we can only store the money that they entrust to us. They are also entrusting us with their name information, invest in your data strategies and get names right. Because the amount of name mishaps and getting names wrong and spelling names wrong and misgendering households, and all of these kinds of things are having a huge negative impact on our fundraising. So capture names, get them ranked, and call them by what they want to be called. Because the surest sign that you don't know me as a donor is to address me as dear Thomas, because you took my name off your credit card capture.
• 52:51
  Clay Buck: You can tell me the greatest human story in the world. But if you get my name wrong, I'm out.
• 52:57
  Clay Buck: That's me. Yes. But that's also many, many donors,
• 53:00
  Jonathan McCoy: small things matter. Data matters. And it's not complicated stuff. I think everything you've pointed us to is doing the right thing, doing the small things that matter.
• 53:10
  Jonathan McCoy: And that's what we all look for in my personal relationships, too. So round us out clay, this has been such a fun conversation. What's your one good thing you know, it's a piece of it for us. We defined that as a piece of advice or a mantra, just something that really rings true that you'd want to share with our community today.
• 53:26
  Clay Buck: I always bring in the dogs into my interaction in my bio, because I hope it helps humanize me, right. And people more often than not remember the dogs than they remember my credentials. And I don't have human children. I have four kids, right. So they're, they're kind of my kids. So my my one good thing. God helped me be the person my dog thinks I am.
• 53:55
  Becky Endicott: Well, Clay, we have so enjoyed this conversation. We want everyone to know how they can connect with you. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there listening, saying, I feel like this guy gets what I'm trying to build. How can I hire him or learn from him? Tell us where people can find you on socials and your website. And yeah, give us all the connections.
• 54:16
  Clay Buck: Sure, super easy. My website is TCB fundraising.com As in TK buck, right, TCB fundraising.com. I am on Twitter a lot more than I should be at tea clay buck. I'm on LinkedIn.
• 54:31
  Clay Buck: I'm spending more time on LinkedIn, LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is a good way to message me or find me or reach out to me. But you can also reach out to me through my website.
• 54:39
  Jonathan McCoy: huge honor. I mean, full hearts. I love the world that you know, you see, and that is being created in this sector. I just feel really buoyed from this time together.
• 54:47
  Jonathan McCoy: Just love what you're doing.
• 54:48
  Jonathan McCoy: I love finding you guys because I feel like we're talking the same stuff. And the more of us that talk like this, the more movement we'll make, right?
• 54:55
  Becky Endicott: Let's build the world we want to live in and say I think there's a lot of people out there who want to live in this world. So come along with us friends. Thanks for hanging in there. And let's go do good work. Thank you, Clay. Thank you.
• 55:10
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• 55:10
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• 55:12
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• 55:31
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