Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Is there a 2nd Natalee Holloway grave? Were missing woman's remains divided?

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Is there a 2nd Natalee Holloway grave? Were missing woman's remains divided? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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• 1:00
  Speaker 1: com Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two, two thousand five. On the small
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: island of a rubat. Natalie Holloway was with friends at
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: a local bar where she was last seen getting a
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains a mystery. Her
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: dad says that he in a private eye found human
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: remains in a rubo. We took those remains and had
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: those remains tested and then just returned last week. That's
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: her human remains. Will they be able to be some
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: kind of test, Dave, that will be answer once and
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: for all whether this is Natalie. We're in the process
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: of doing a d n A test. Dave Holloway says
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: that a friend of a man who was once suspected
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that there's
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm just
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: trying to wait and see. A beautiful young girl goes
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: on her high school senior trip. Her parents take her
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: to say goodbye. It's heavily chaperon. All is well until
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: it's time for her to come home, and she never
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: shows up at the plane. The chaperones don't know what happened,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: her friends don't know what happened, and the parents are
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: devastated to this day, they still don't know what happened
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: to Natalie Holloway. And with me today in addition to
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: an all star lineup, is the man at the center
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: of the search for Natalie Holloway, some calling him the hero, Gabriel.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: He was managed to help crack this case wide open.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: He is with us now, I mean, I see Grace,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: First of all, before I go to Gabriel, I'm gonna
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: start with Art Harris, Emmy Award winning reporter Art. What
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: is the latest? I'm now understanding that someone in the
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: case claims Natalie's bones have been mixed with a dog's
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: bones and cremated for two hundred dollars. Have you heard that?
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: One report Nancy has his friend taking the remains to
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: a local crematory and paying the officials there two hundred
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: dollars to burn the bones with the remains of a dog. Now,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: how would they how would that happen? Well, he had cash,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: he says, and they put it through the uh, the oven,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: and came back with a mixture of ashes, supposedly from
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Natalie and dog. Why didn't they stop him? The guy said,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: this is you know John who's supposedly RAN's lover and friend. Well,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I don't I love that dog. I don't want anyone
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: to see him go in except me. So he gets
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: the ashes and then the story is he's supposed to
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: bury them for Uran and what happens from there? I
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: guess Gabriel can tell us more. Well, here's the gist
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: of it. A missing Alabama girl, Natalie Holloway, skeletal remains,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: so believe, were mixed with those of a dead dog
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: and an effort to disguise that it was Natalie, then
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: taken to a crematory where a man paid two hundred
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: bucks to cremate to burn them so the ashes could
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: be scattered. Is it true? How did we get to
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: this point? Natalie's father has traveled all over the world,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: including as far as Nicaragua, to help find his daughter,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: and joining me right now the man at the center
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: of the search for Natalie many heiling him as a hero. Gabriel.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Now Gabriel. Back on August thirty, we had an episode
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: on Natalie Holloway, and in that episode I mistakenly idead
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: a person named Gabriel as the guy I had previously interviewed,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: and I did the interview when you're in vander Salute,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: the judge's son had been arrested in charge in the
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: murder of a second girl, Stephanie Tausiana Flores. Now I
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: made the mistake about thinking Gabriel was that personal interview before,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: but he is not that person, and I really apologize.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: Nobody's too big to say they were wrong. I apologize
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: for that confusion. And with me here today is the
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: real Gabriel, Not the Gabriel I confused, but the real
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Gabriel who has really led Natalie's father to this point.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: And Gabriel, I mean, I just want to say that
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: if you had not done this, we wouldn't have even
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: gotten this far. And whether it turns out to be
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: her remains or not, or some other woman's remains, what's
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: so stunning to me is that a Reuben. Authorities kept
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: saying it's not a person, it's not a person, it's
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: it's an animal. Well, our expert here in the US
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: says it is a young woman of Eastern European descent.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: So it makes me wonder, Gabriel, what else the Auruban
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: of alorities are hiding. But that's put in the cart
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: before the horse. Start at the beginning, Gabriel, please tell
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: me your story. I met John Goodwook in two thousand thirteen,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: and I met him through a friend I'm going to
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: head and gave him the chance. And one day he
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: was drunk. He goes, you know who Natalie and all
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: the ways. I go, yeah, I recall poor girl. He goes, oh,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I know more than anybody knows in the entire life.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: I go, what do you mean? He goes, I was there.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Wait what he goes, I'm at Manaslud in two thousands tens.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: That day he tells me, you know what, I think
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: that gruesome. So he starts showing me pictures and all
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: this and that of him in Vanaslud. And then that
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: day something in me said I can look the other way,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: or I go and try to solve this. So something
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: came in me and and said I'm gonna do it.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Might not be easy, but I'm gonna do it. So
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I befriend John and acted like his best friend. I mean,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I took him to every single placeful because I played poker.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: I took him here, I took me there. I spent
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: thousands of dollars to you know, make him my best
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: friends so he could open up to me. So by
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: a two thousand fifth team, he went ahead and opened up.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: I mean he completely opened up. He goes, you're my
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: best friend. And in two thousand fifteen, I tried to
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: call Beth Holloway. I mean I tried for three or
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: four months. I tried everything. I never got an answer.
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  Speaker 1: So then I went ahead and called Dave Holloway and
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: I got an answer and I said Hi Dave, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: he goes yes. I said, look, I know a lot
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: of people have cry roll foot, but I haven't been
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: videos that you should be. You should look at. I'm
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: not asking for money, I just want you to look
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I have. I'm a father to a daughter, so I know, uh,
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: if that happened to me, well you know you're pain.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: So he comes to j Ward and he did. Ward
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: calls me. He comes to Venice, Florida and meet me,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: and t J was blown away. He goes, oh my god, wow,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: I mean DJ didn't know nothing. I go, t J,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: why did you miss this? And back in two thousand
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: tens he made jokes the job bone is connected to
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: the room. I'm like, come on, you missed a lot
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: of information here. So he said, well, you know, I've
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: been working on this case and doesn't this and that?
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: So I didn't say nothing. Well, let me ask a question, Gabriel,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: when you say they were blown away, what is it
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  Speaker 1: that you knew that blew them away? That Young knew
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: exactly where he was carried? Young knew exactly how she
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: actually died. Well, did he tell you how she actually died?
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: He told me all this and confessions on video. I
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: mean I reported without well what did he say what happened?
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: It's part of the documentary and I can't say it. Okay,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: I understand, Okay, go ahead. Then he said where it
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: comes to me and says Dave Holloway has put a
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: lot of money to this, and we got a chance
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: to do a documentary. Would you like to join them?
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: And I said sure, you know, why not? You know,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: I help out. We we did a boat trip and uh,
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: I guess the laws didn't qualify there. So t J
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: said that he was gonna pay me, which he never
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: paid me for for my um on my expenses there.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: So I said, it's okay, you know, I don't care.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: So then we went to New Orleans and we did
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: desting operation and TJ at the time was pushing because
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: he wanted information right away, and I said, listen, he's
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: a name yac. You cannot push this guy. He will
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: close up, he will not say a word. You have
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: to just be calm and he will give you what
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: you want. But you have to relax and be calm.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: So we didn't really get nowhere we I mean, he
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: told us that there that it wasn't at the fort anymore.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: It was somewhere else at his aunt's house. You know.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I was like, what, what? Why did you like to me?
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Wait a minute. The sting goes down in New Orleans
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: and it's recorded in a hotel room with hidden cameras
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: and audio with you talking with the guy who was
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: shown discussing his friendship with vandersl Loot, right, correct, And
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: so that goes down in New Orleans. Do you think
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: the guys telling the truth. He's got a person that
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: would say what putes But one clue he gave me,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: he goes to every lie, there's the truth. You just
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: got to figure it out. From that day on, I
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: would put everything in my in my wall and what
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: makes sense of what did it? That's how I I
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: was able to find the bones. There's a lot of
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: twists and turns, but I don't want to talk about
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: about it. But if he gave, would have never put
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: his two cents into a lot of this, He would
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: have solved it earlier. It was very difficult, very aggravating working.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: What do you make Gabriel of this claim that Natalie's
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: remains were mixed with a dog's remains to throw off authorities.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: I can't. I cannot say anything because it's part of documentary.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: The only thing I could tell you, guys is that
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of twigs in turns. One day that's
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: gonna say this, the other earned it something that said.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: That was the only thing I could tell the guys
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: is put on your seatbelt, get on your hard hat,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: because it's gonna be a wild roller coaster when you
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: guys see what I went through and everybody else went
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: through to solve this. Now, the second time we went
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: to a Ruba, everybody gave up, everybody because again DJ
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: went in and he got mad and demanded, and John
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: got pissed off and didn't do anything to attention. I
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: came back in April, it's out, nobody knowing, and I
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: told John that this thing, John, something happened, which is
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: part of the documentary. I cannot say something happened John.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: He just came on and said, Okay, let's go. Let's
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: go to the same area where we were at, and
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna show you where is that. When John came
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: came and I said, look, John, listen, I'm broke now
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: because of you. But I'm gonna borrow his money so
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: we could go down there. What if you don't line
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: to me, I'm going to break every single in your
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: body and I'm gonna leave you down there. So as
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: soon as we landed, I gotta pass support. As soon
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: as we landed, we went to the hotel. I stripped
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: search to him. I mean he took all his clothes
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: because I want to make sure you have nothing. And
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: we went straight there. Okay, hold on just one moment,
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: guys with me. At the center of the controversy regarding
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the missing Alabama tene, Natalie Holloway is the man that
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: has led her father to what many believe are the
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: remains of Natalie Holloway. And He's right, it's more twisted
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: than we ever imagined with allegations. Now that her remains
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: have been mixed with the remains of a dog and
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: buried to throw off authorities. With me also in addition
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: to Art, Patricia Cheryl McCollum, also with me the Duke
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: Alan Do Alan, what can you roll what we learned
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: on the Oxygen series the other night? Please, let's in
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: with day one with a sting operation behind us. It's
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: time to tell Dave where we are. Last night, John
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: changed her story. Originally he told Gabriel that he recovered
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: Natalie's remains from the National Forest, and now he claims
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: that's at a different location near his aunt's rental property.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: He's already admitted that he was involved and moving Natalie's rennes. Okay,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna let you see right from the horse's mouth, Okay.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: I can take you to where I got the remains.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: But it's not really in the National Park. It's up
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: at the top of a mountain, like not a mountain,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: a really big hill there that's almost sick a mountain like.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Houses are going all the way up up this steep hill.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: The road just eventually dead ends and it's like a
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: could sack, or you can turn around, but if you
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: walk past the cold sack, there's like a little path.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: It takes you back into the desert where there's like
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: cactuses and brush you ease and like that, and the
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: second clearing of my squy trees to duck under, and
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: then you're gonna see a freaking opening and then you
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: can see a bunch of cactuses grouped together. That's where
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: she was. It was. It's actually only like probably ten
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: minute walk from my aunt's house, so it was never
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: a national part. It's never it's tenants sounds walking. John,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I think, is trying to throw Gabriel along because he's
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: changed the story. In addition to the man who many
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: are hailing as a hero, Gabriel who has led Natalie's
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: father this far, aren't Harris with me, Emmy Award winning
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: reporter Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Institute, Dr
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Patricia Saunders, well known psychologists joining us out of New York,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: and of course Alan Duke to you, Cheryl McCullum, way
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: in on this latest twist. I mean to think that
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: someone could be so diabolical, not only to kill a
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: young girl like this, but then to mix her remains
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: with a dog's to escape detection. I mean, what do
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: you make of the crime scene. Nancy, I am fascinated
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: by this news development. But my biggest question right now
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: is who at the crematory does not notice seven ribs.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, you've got two solds, you've got two pelvits.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Something would be very odd about that being dropt off
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: there to be cremated. And to you, Dr Patricia Saunders,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: I'm listening to Cheryl McCombs speak. But the mindset of
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: someone that cannot only kill a young girl but then
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: mix her remains with a dog's the mindset is that
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: of what I see is typical psychopaths. As a person
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: who is incapable of empathy and therefore has no conscience,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: he could have mixed it with the cow or starts.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: He was concerned he would just trying to hide his
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: crimes and act thinking he's smarter than everybody else. He
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: mixes it in with jog bones. You know, Art Harris
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: on this, tell me how this latest development occurred. First, Art,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: listen to this. Did he ever tell you what actually,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: like what actually happened to night that did like, you know,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: to see Natalie dying there? I mean he told me
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: that freaking bad things that can happen to good people.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you just got deal with it. You don't think
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: it was it was wrong with him trying to try
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: and to cause the situation. I had to deal with it,
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: and I had help to the hell who like who
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: helped him? Sad? Yeah, I've always had a suspicion that
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: policymander Sleep played a role in this police manor salute
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: matter statement nobody no case, which means that if they
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: can't find a body, then no one can be arrested
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: for the murder of that. How much involvement does he
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: have in this case to make that type of statement
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: nobody no case. So it made me think that he's very,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: very confident that Natalie would not ever be recovered. So Art,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: what do you make of it? Understanding is that his
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: best friend, this John who Gabriel so heroically lead to
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: confess or confide, goes to this crematory and he has
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: it god carcass, and he has Natalie's remains that he
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: has dug up, and he places the carcass over the
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: remains and insists on being there when it goes into
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: the oven, as it were. So he watches this whether
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: it's true or not. That's what he told Gabriel and
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: he takes this this bag of ashes, and what I'm
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: unclear about why didn't they take the ashes? If they
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: wanted to get rid of them and dump them at sea,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: why would they go to the trouble of reburying them somewhere?
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: That is what my question would be. What do you
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: make of that, Cheryl, Nancy? If the bones were cremated,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: what bones are they examining? Now? Yeah, good question. Back
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: out to Gabriel, who's at the central of all this. Gabriel,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: what bones do you believe that they are examining? Because
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: it's been made very clear US expert is looking at
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: bones brought in from Aruba. So if something was cremated,
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: what is there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: he said many stories as were we were doing the
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the the investigation. And Uh, I cannot say because there's
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: a twist to all this. It could be true, it
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: could be a lot. I but there's a twist to everything,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: so I can't really. I have to keep you guys
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: in this question to you, Gabriel, from what you learned
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: through John, what have you learned about who is your Vanderslute?
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's a sociopath,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: he's a populos, a liar. He basically thinks about himself
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and if he could be on TV and be in
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: the spotlight, that's what he wants. What I have learned
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: from from John. How do you think he is holding
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: up now? Is he's still in connection in contact with
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: John because he's in Peru now, vanishlus in Peru. As
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: far as side, No, no, John has not. He said
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: the last time that John wrote him a letter was
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: back in two thousand, let's see twelve, and has not
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: written written to him since then, because I guess they
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: you're in Vanderslute's father Paula is a Vanderslute, the judge
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: he was now dead, was covering up for his son.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Oh definitely. There is something else that does that the
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: not even a documentary people have of material that how
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: it came to be where Natalie was placed to h
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: her place to rest for the very first time? Where
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: was she at? And they don't even have the material.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I try to tell him, but they don't listen to me. Well,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: where where was it? I cannot say it right now
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: due to my lawyer. I can't. I can't disclose that
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: right now. I understand, I understand, But this way, I'm
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: just gonna give you a little hint. Paula had a
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: best friend in Holland that had they had a property.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Paula's knew it very well, that property, very very well.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: And that's all I can tell you for now. What
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: was it like to be working undercover wanting to crack
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly, Nancy Um, I'm not
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm not a cop, I'm not an investigator,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: and none of this God gave me the will and
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: it was very, very frustrating. It's like Um handling a
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: five year old childhood tantrums day by day. It was
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has I mean,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: if you were locked in with him, you were fibly
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: strangling because there's no way. And I had to take
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: all that crap. I had to grow thick skin in
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: order to get the information I needed to solve this.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: How long did it take you, Gabriel Um? Approximately almost
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: five years mm hmm. Because I started in slow to
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: get in him. Once I was in, and at the
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: end I pushed hard and I got what I wanted.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I was almost there, almost there when everybody gave up
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: but me, and I said, no, no, I'm not gonna
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: let this go. I know he's there, and I know,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and something remarkable happened. And the second week of April
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and I went back when everybody gave up, I went
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: back and it was exactly the spot where I kind
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: of had a general idea and everybody was blown the way.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: The one that was blown away the most, which he
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember calling him
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes, you
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells me
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: called Chief Urchinson. So I did, gives me the number.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: I called him, and I said, I want to meet you.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: when I met him, he goes, you want to know something.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I go what He goes teaching work, called me to
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: put you in jail. I go for what he goes
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: gonna do that. Can you take me where you where
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: you found remains? Like? Yes, So we go back there.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: They checked their area out and then they leave and
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: one thing. When we were outside the hotel, when they
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: They're like ke vichards asked him is this human? And
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: was a piece of a skull and other pieces which
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say. Question do you, Gabriel, are
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: you in fear in any way? Um? Four days ago,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the morning, two men in black
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: came and tried to break in my house. At three
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. Um, I came out and I
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: didn't turn the lights on. They seen me and they
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: took off. I chased him. They got on the black
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: yr CD and left my My girlfriend is frightened at death,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: but I'm not scared. I'm not. I'm like, bring your
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: body bags because it's gonna get believe and I have
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: not seen him since. You have a daughter, correct, Yes,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: she is in California. They lived with her mother. Me
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: and her mom have been separated for nineteen years. Tell
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: me about your daughter. My daughter is twenty four years old.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: She was going to school to be a poker dealer
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: because you know, I mean you you have a good
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: uh good future, you make good benefits and all that.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: And when I was going to go the last time
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: to a Ruba, she wanted to tell me something and
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: she goes, how is it going? And I was kind
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: of depressed. He goes, Dad, don't give up. Dad, you
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: could do this. You go over there and you do
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: this because I know I believe in you. And then
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I said, yeah, you're right, I have to. So I
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: borrowed money to go down to a Ruba. And because
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: like again I was, I was out of money and
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: my daughter dad day did not tell me she had
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: a tumor in her size of a small orange. She
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: did not tell me until a month later. I was broken.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I don't sleep right now. I mean, I'm I'm about
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: to lose. I don't know what you feel sorry for me,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: but I'm about to lose my house where I'm at.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: I haven't paid rent in three months to try to
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: help my daughter. It's hard, it's very hard. But you
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: know what, if it's all comes out to be Natalie Holloway,
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: or even if it's not, even if it's somebody else,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: we to give closure to a family and my daughter.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: She's hurting. But you know, I'm just I'm hoping for
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: America to help her out. I'm hoping for Americle. She
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: cries a lot, she's very scared. But you know, God
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: is not gonna let me down. He put me in
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: this mission, and I know when you try to follow God,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: it's not easy. Not everybody could follow God. But he's
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: not gonna let me down. He's not. Gabriel, I have
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: been told you have a go fund Me page to
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: help your daughter. What is that? My go fundi page
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: is for my daughter. She has a tumor and it grew,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: it's growing rapidly, and you know, she she she can't
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: really watch too much because she gets tired, and she's
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: very scared. And I've been trying. I can't come up
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: with the money. I'm trying really really hard. So I
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: did to go fund me to see if people will
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: help me so I could get this disease out of
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: my daughter and then she needs reconstruction surgery right after that.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: What is your go fund me page, Gabriel? What is
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: your go fund to me page? You could just go
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: to uh Gabriel Madrigal on my Facebook and you will
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: find it there. That's magical. In mother A d R
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: I G A L. Correct, you're the first words for
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: the first person, Nancy, that especially correctly. Gabriel Madrigal Facebook
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: and then you can find his go fund me page
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: to help pay for his daughter's surgery. Wow, you know
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: what you've been living through? Hell? Man, living through hell.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I have nobody, nobody can understand my troubles. I know
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: what Dave has went through. I mean, I can't compare.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: But you know, it's really hard when when you have
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: a sick child and basically your hands are tied behind
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: your back. I'm in Florida, she's in California, and she
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: will you know, she's scared to go to a doctor
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: because she's a baby, a daddy's girl, and wants me
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: by her side. You know, And it's really really frustrating.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: It's really really hard, you know, this whole case. Yeah,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: it kills me. But you know what is going to
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: be worth it at the end. And God is not
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: gonna let me. God is gonna make a miracle for
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: my daughter. God is gonna make a miracle for me.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: But you know till then, you know, I just have
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: to keep having faith that's all. Let's yeah, I just
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: wanted to tell Gabriel luck to lose his hope. I
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: recently lost my son and what gives me satisfaction and
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: horrific story is that you're in is sitting up in
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the mountains somewhere and a horrible prison in Peru and
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: will best the next twenty something. Yes, m, that's right.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Let's all prayer to God at all. You know they
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: all pay for what they have done. Question to you, Gabriel,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: why do you believe a Reuben? Authorities are so insistent
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: that this these are not human remains? Why do they
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: keep saying that? Well, they said why because they got
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: too much to hide For one Vanish salute, Uh Godfather.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: He was somebody, you know, a big top official. So
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: just think about it. Paula's is it's an official there too.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Vneus Godfather's an official. So you know, they just want
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: to get it. They wanted to put it under the carpet,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: and you know, let's just forget about this. All those
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: people helped Vanta suit and Paula's not and to get
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: rid of e A as you name it. They're guilty,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: They're very very guilty. And I don't understand why they're
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: doing that to their own people. I just don't get it.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: They should just come to people on the island. What
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: did they think happen to Natalie? They think they honestly,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: they all say that that Venus killed her and Paulas
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: That's what they all say. What I was there and
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: that that they you know, they feel ashamed that the
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: room authorities are doing that to their own people, which
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: is not right. They need to come clean first. You say, hey, listen,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: here are bones and their animal bones. The person takes them,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: brings them to the years. The biggest mistake is they
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: did not declare them. I don't care if it's animal bones.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: You declare them. And then and then once they prag
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: them over here and did the test, they were they
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: were still doubts that they were not gonna do tests.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: But they do the test and then they turn out
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: to be human. I knew in my heart is Natalie.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Why I say this, Nancy, because John declares it too
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: well from height from everything, there's some disgusting parts I
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: cannot say. It is part of the documentary. It's gonna
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: keep you guys into spense. Now it doesn't benefit me
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: saying anything about, you know, watch the show, this and
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: this map eight. I didn't get paid a dime. I
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: did this out of my bar of my heart because
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: I have daughters. I did not receive a penny on
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: none of this. I didn't. I don't have a contract
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: with them either. Speaking of the series, take a listen
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: to this now. On this section of tape, John is
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: sharing his admiration or your own. So when you met Vanasoul,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: what did you talk to say? Damn, he's famous. I've
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: always attempted this guy because I always thought it was cool,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: just the way he acted on the news and to
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: me like it's oh, it's so Smell's so cocky and
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I loved him for that. I was like, oh, yeah,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: I love that he's cocky and he knows he guy
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the way with it and he's enamored with yarn bannerslup
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: yond life is the guy. And I don't know why
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Patricia Saunders, after all he has been through for all
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: of these years. What will it do to Dave Holloway
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: if it turns out that this is not Natalie Holloway.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: I think Dave is a man of courage and determination.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: The best antidote to grief is action, and he has
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: been doing that for more than fifteen years. I think
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: he will continue his quest to find the doors remain.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: If he gives up, now he's opening himself up to
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: an accumulation of traumatic grief. I don't think he's that
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: kind of guy, Doctor Saunders, What will it do to
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Dave Holloway if this if this turns out to be
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Natalie Holloway's remains his daughter? I think it would be
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: a mixture of relief and grief. For the business such
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: things closure, especially when when a child is murdered, but
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: there's some sense of being grounded that you have something
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: to bury, that you can have a headstone the cemetery.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I think she would be would have been relieved, and
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I said, think it would have opened the doors for
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: her beginning to deal with her traumatically. Yeah, Sheryl McCollum.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: When you're listening to Gabriel talk and he's talking about
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: the specific location that it is a set of female bones,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: you know this is your expertise, your cold case expert.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I'd like you to analyze what you're hearing. Nancy. What
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: I'm hearing is they take a body and they move
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: it from the beach to a place and they bury it.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Then they get another person to dig her up and
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: move her again. And now you've got some idy that
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: keeps running their mouths saying, hey, you know this is her,
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: and you're gonna be able to find it, and you're
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: gonna be able to go broke looking for her. And
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: now they described they added dog bones, then they cremated her.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Then they say no, no, she's in burlap. Nancy. It
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: sounds so far fetched to me that men are normally
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: a to b in the way they dispose the body.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: And if you're on the beach and the Atlantic Ocean
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: is right there, that's where you put her and hide her.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: But Gabriel wants me to understand and believe that how
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: was told your hand. No, you stay right there with
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: a dead body while I go back and get a
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: burlap sack to break their legs and put her in it.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: And then we're gonna put a cactus over like that's
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: gonna hide something like you know, other animals aren't gonna
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: dig at that and perhaps unearth her themselves. None of
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: this rings true for me. I wanted to I want
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: this for Dave and Best so bad, But I need
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: a lot more answers before I buy this. You know,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: that is kind of our story, Gabriel, that they would
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: put her hot I guess, bury her at a location
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: where there was a cactus. Is that how it went Art?
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Art Harris that she was buried by a cactus, Nancy.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Apparently the way it went down, they took two They
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: took the body to this spot that Paulus, the judge
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: directed them, and they dug it up and at the
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: last minute he said, let's mark the spot with a
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: cactus so we know where it is, And so they
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: grabbed a cactus nearby plopped it on top, and that
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: was the last of that chapter. Then what then They
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: later come back and this friend of Gabriel's, John was
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: paid to help your an fetch the body and move it.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: And that is apparently when they took it to the crematory,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: mixed it with a dog and got the ashes combined.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I'm at a loss as to what happened after that, Art.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: What I don't understand is this, If her body was
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: in its natural form when it was buried under the cactus,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and then it was taken and cremated, mixed with a
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: dog and cremated. What are the bones that they are
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: now scrutinizing. What are those bones? Aren't Harris, Nancy? That
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: is the big question. How would you have anything left
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: over after you ran her remains and the supposed dog
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: carcass through this oven and mixed them. So, you know,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know that if Gabriel can answer that, maybe
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: this is a twist and turn we haven't expected. But
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: but if you don't have anything hard, any cartilage, any
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: bone to analyze other than ashes, I don't know that
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: that's possible. Nancy. Now hold on, let's think this through.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: And I've said this many many times. I learned it
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: from a senior judge I practiced in front of There's
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: a way many times to make all witnesses speak the
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: truth and imputing perjury on no one. In other words,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: this all may be true. She may have been buried
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: under a cactus and those bones removed and buried somewhere else,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: hence the discovery of bones. This crematory story maybe totally wrong,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: or the crematory story itself may be true. It's got
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: to be one or the other. But I know this, Gabriel.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: According to Dave Holloway and the US medical doctor expert.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Human remains were found and the doctor is analyzing them
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: and extracting DNA from them. They are human remains belonging
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: to a female. So, Gabriel, how does it work? How
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: could there be bones and this cremation story. Well, Nancy,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: it's very simple. If you cream me something, you're not
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: gonna have bones. So the other option is it never
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: got created. That is simple answer, but it's part of
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: the documentary. I cannot says it's a big twist. I
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: hear you. I mean they That's what I was just saying,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: and you said it very succinctly. They can't both be true.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Someone may have been mixed with a dog at a crematory,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: bones may have been taken and moved, but they can't
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: be the same thing. Nancy, Could I add something? Yeah?
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: I would like to play a clip now of the
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: voice stress analyzer that t. J. Ward has that he
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: put John's explanation through. They in this clip listened to
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: John explaining the crematory and the dog scenario. Let's hear
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: what their expert analysis of the truthfulness of that statement is. Yeah,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: let's listen. We're going to do an analysis on John
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: and Gabriel's conversation and try to confirm some of the
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: information that was communicated in the last couple of days
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: to be true or not true. We're going to run
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: the audio of the perpetrator through the layered voice analysis
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: and see how it comes back as far as how
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: truthful he's being after changing his story. Okay, are you
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: keyed up on the segment we want to try. We're
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: ready to go. Okay, it wasn't. It wasn't in a
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: national park. So these two snippets together we have highly
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: stressed in truth. He's smart enough to know he's describing
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: himself committing a crime. When you're looking at these, you
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: can't look at any individual snippet by itself. You're looking
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: at what's around it. You're looking at the numbers, You're
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: looking at what's being said here. And I think he's
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: telling the truth here almost entirely. Uh, that it's not
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: in the national forest, and that he's uh, it's going
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: to be somewhere close to his aunt's house. My instincts
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: all along, just from watching the interview and listening what
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: the perpetrator had to say. It was my belief that
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: he was being truthful, that this new location was the
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: actual location. And now that we're able to confirm with
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: the voice analysis some of the information that we were
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: in question, well I feel good about it. Moving on
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: to the next relevant section. He's talking about at the
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: crematory and that how vander Sleut knew that he could
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: get the cremation done without um anybody looking in the box.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: He knew he could get it done and paid him
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: under the table money. Vander Sleut knew the family and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: again this shows up as inaccuracy. Again the table money
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: because it was fine. We see a high tension, bad feelings,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: medium risk inaccuracies. There's definitely some thing more here to
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: explore that he's holding back about the crematory. Out to
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Art Harris, Art Nancy, one of my questions has given
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: the the dark heart of anyone who has friends with
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: your in vander salute and thinking like a criminal and
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: a con man. What would keep him from perhaps taking
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: some of the bones and burying them somewhere else so
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: he could find them later in some sort of leverage
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: or shakedown deal. I haven't even thought that far, but
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: you know, Gabriel, with all the cases that I've tried
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: and literally in excess of ten thousand cases that I
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: have either investigated orchestrated guilty, please or tried. I tried.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: When I'm confused, I go back to what I know. Okay, Gabriel,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: this is what I know, and this is what I'm
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: hearing from you, and I really appreciate you being with
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: us today. Just wants you to know that I know this.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I know that I know Dave Holloway. I know that
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: he loved Natalie more than anything. This is not some
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: kind of a stunt for Dave Holloway. I don't believe that.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: And Dave Holloway and this very well known US doctor
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: say it is human bones, and the doctor says it's
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: female Eastern European bones. So was that Natalie that went
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: through a crematory? And these are somebody else's bones? Maybe?
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: Are these Natalie's bones? Maybe? But I do know both
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: can't be true. And I believe Holloway and I believe
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: that US doctor that they've got bones, and you stated
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: it very clearly. Let me ask you this, What were
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: your impressions, Gabriel, of Dave Holloway, Because I like him
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: a lot. My impression is Dave Holloway. I seen him
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: broken man. I see a man that has suffered for years.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: I've seen a man that is desperately um asking for questions.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: He wants to find her. All he wants is closure.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: And that day, that day I met him, I I
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I said, you know, I'm not gonna quit.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna quit. I Am going to find her.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: And I know in my heart I did. I know
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: in my heart I did, because I have videos and
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: that recorded in my house before I went to a
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Rubat that I knew I was gonna it was gonna happen.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: And I know in my heart as her I don't
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: know why, I have a strong feeling because I didn't
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: come this far for nothing, and I want to give
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Dave Holloway and Beth closure so they could bring their
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: baby home. There's a big old twist to this. Now,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: the gentleman that was just saying about if there's more parts,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I cannot say. That's a big twist to this story.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Not even t J knows about this. I'm the only one.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: The FBI is the one that knows. I'm not gonna
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: share information when people that treat me like trash. No,
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not. Now does the documentary people know. Uh, yes
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: they do. But I'm just gonna leave it at that. There.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: This thing is full of twists and turns, and that
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: two liars try to get away with it. But if God,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: if God is good, he's gonna give us what we want,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: that is Natalie, And we could somehow pray to God
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: that they could charge these guys. And I'm afraid they're not.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: I'm afraid they're gonna walk away free, all right, Harris
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: swaying Nancy. The fact that he just mentioned FBI gives
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: me a little hope because if you remember, your end
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: was also under indictment fortune aching down man Natalie's mother
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: for twenty dollars, which is hanging over his head should
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: he ever come back and be tried for murder. So
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: until now there has been no way to get the
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: FBI into a murder case because they have jurisdiction of
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: American citizens who die overseas. But if this suddenly has
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: gotten them back in to the case, that gives me hope.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: This is what it boils down to. From me. As
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: I was listening to Gabriel talk about Dave Holloway calling
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: him a broken man, I was just thinking, as I
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: was listening to Gabriel talk. Everybody on the program right
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: now has had a severe loss, a severe loss to
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: think about losing your child. You know, I thought I
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: knew all about pain When my fiancee was murdered, we
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: in my dad passed away just recently. I did not
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: think I could put one ft in front of the other.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: He had always been kind of my soul mate, my
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: dad Mac to think of one day you just simply
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: never see your child again, and you play over and
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: over in your mind that last time you saw them.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: That is the hell that Dave, Holloway and Beth have
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: been living in all this time. And Gabriel, whatever the
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: results are, you have moved this case forward. And I'm
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: so grateful to you. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: goodbye friends. One